From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #218 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, May 17 1999 Volume 04 : Number 218 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Observations from a returning member [dsk ] Re: bombs in Adriatic Sea (NJC) ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: Saving Our List (NJC) ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: NJC: Save Our List [dsk ] Re: NJC: Save Our List (long but earnest!) ["Eric Taylor" ] FWIW: Hole... and Joni [Vince Lavieri ] FWIW: Joni in Rushdie's new book [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Saving Our List (NJC) ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: (NJC) [Vince Lavieri ] Re: (NJC) ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: NJC: Save Our List (long but earnest!) [and nonsense]. [MDESTE1@aol.] Re: NJC: Save Our List (long but earnest!) [and nonsense]. [Kate Tarasen] In Memory -- One Year Ago ["Eric G. Postel" ] Re: Saving Our List (NJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: [Fwd: Where Did Our Love Go?] [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: (NJC) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: [Fwd: Where Did Our Love Go?] ["Helen M. Adcock" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 17:03:32 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Observations from a returning member Phyliss, Sounds like a great trip! I'm very glad to hear that Joni's music is in such an exotic location as Bali (exotic from my viewpoint anyway and so far away!). Welcome back. Phyliss Ward wrote: > > 3. It appears the flame wars have flared again! Reporting now from the NJC front lines: No, there aren't any flame wars going on, but, in among the Joni messages, there is a discussion about the list and private emails... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 22:56:58 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: bombs in Adriatic Sea (NJC) Vince Lavieri wrote: > and for everyone's reference, I am teasing Winfreid, not flaming at him... And for everyone's reference, my actual viewpoint on this war-related ecological sin is that the least NATO must do (if it can't avoid the whole thing beforehand) is to take care of the bombs' disposal. After all, the main purpose of NATO is to protect the people living within NATO states, not to kill them. Actually, the Italians have been taking quite a few NATO blows recently. First this tramway accident in the Dolomites, killing more than 20 people... Italian prosecutors are denied access to the facts by the USMC... The pilot gets away on involuntary manslaughter charges --- if it isn't reckless to fly at an altitude of 30 meters in a region containing more than 1,500 ski lifts of all descriptions (100 alone in that particular valley), what then is reckless ? --- and then Congress refuses to pay the due damage compensation, while it grants $12 billions to the military... This is pure mockery to the deceased and their relatives and a first class diplomatic blunder. I'm not surprised Italians feel humiliated and are angry. As an American travelling to Italy these weeks, it might be advisable to try to speak with a British accent. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 17:26:56 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: bombs in Adriatic Sea (NJC) "Winfried Hühn" wrote: > > First this tramway accident in the Dolomites, killing more than 20 > people... Italian prosecutors are denied access to the facts by the > USMC... The pilot gets away on involuntary manslaughter charges --- if > it isn't reckless to fly at an altitude of 30 meters in a region > containing more than 1,500 ski lifts of all descriptions (100 alone in > that particular valley), what then is reckless ? --- and then Congress > refuses to pay the due damage compensation, while it grants $12 billions > to the military... This is pure mockery to the deceased and their > relatives and a first class diplomatic blunder. I am ashamed of Congress's response to the victims of the ski tram accident. If only our Congress could find more gratuitous sex on which to impeach someone, they could be as busy as ever... but for the gratuitous violence of killing 20 people by hotrodding airboys, they can't find the time or money to care. (the Rev) Vince, knowing he would work that gratuitous sex and violence comment in somewhere... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 18:00:06 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Saving Our List (NJC) Kakki wrote: <> Debra replied: < Subject: Re: NJC: Save Our List Kate, I want you to know that I agree with many of the points you've made and have experienced much of what you've described. It was my hope also that the possibility of public exposure would keep such abuse from happening, and I wanted to explore that idea with other list members since they, as the community, would have to support such action in order for it to be effective. Even with such support, I'm not sure it would be an effective deterrent and, as has been pointed out very effectively, may even cause great harm to other list members and actually be an attention-getting impetus for some people. At this point I, too, feel talked out about this subject. I've received some advice about ways of filtering email and will post to the list when I figure out what to use. Ideally, it will be easy and no-cost, so that when this problem arises in the future, such information will be readily available. This isn't a perfect or complete solution in my opinion, but for now it seems to be the most appropriate one. Thanks, everyone, for your input. Debra Shea Kate Tarasenko wrote: > > I agree with Patrick in his analogy about the hypothetical > subway-groping incident.... > > I indeed ignored the > unsolicited posts (as someone recently suggested), hoping they'd stop, > but they didn't.... > > ... it is WE who are the arbiters of what goes, and what shouldn't. > > ...frankly, I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone > continue to mail me privately for the express purpose of abusing me, > when the discussion, after all, started on-list. I had hoped that > "outing" the post would result in better on-list conduct -- that was my > sole intent. I did not want to humiliate anyone or demand that the list > choose sides. I wanted the abuse to stop. Much to my astonishment, it > didn't. But at least I didn't feel that I was under personal attack > anymore with the eyes of the JMDL watching. > > No one here, NO ONE, should have > to endure a fellow lister's private abuse, and it is my strong belief > that it's up to us to censure or support each other. That's what my > secondary hope was, that people WOULD form and voice their opinions, and > things took their course. I trust you guys as a group, and I was, in > effect, asking for your collective help. And it's not like this is a > bad thing! > > I will not allow myself to be violated > this way by another JMDLer. And as fellow members of the JMDL, I > believe (IMHO) that it is YOUR business, too. The tone of the JMDL is > everyone's concern. I do realize that not everyone chooses to be > > I absolutely wanted the light of day shed on what I > considered a problem -- I wanted the issue behind this problem to be > fair game! And it's a problem that has affected many people here ... > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 18:25:40 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: NJC: Save Our List (long but earnest!) Kate Tarasenko wonders: <<(Should this be done publicly? Perhaps that is not the best way, but perhaps it is the most fair way.) I feel like I've put you through a chore by "asking" you to read my long and windy post -- I'm sorry I didn't edit it better, so if you got this far, thanks. And thanks to those of you who have supported me or my views privately and/or publicly. Many of us will continue to disagree on this topic, but I hope that my own motives and intentions are clearer and less offensive to you now.>> Wow! I rarely read such a long post but find this latest flap educational. When I first joined jmdl 1/98 I posted a joke DocNurse privately emailed me to the list & unintentionally started a feud. But we finally got over ourselves, kissed & made up.... I still swear by the scroll & delete keys, E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 18:44:55 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Taming the Tiger Paul C posted: <> This is my fav review yet. Thanks for sharing it with us! I still listen to TTT almost every day & find it as enduring & trailblazing as anything Joni's ever done. I've seen Stay In Touch printed *Keep In Touch* several times & am wondering if the UK CD is different than the US release? :~p E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:10:48 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: FWIW: Hole... and Joni http://www.post-gazette.com:80/magazine/19990514hole4.asp If I understand this correctly, Hole - Courtney Love's group - just put out an album with a cover of "Both Sides Now" on it. (the Rev) Vince, for what's it worth, who actually likes Hole, but found this to be a bit of a surprise ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:15:09 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: FWIW: Joni in Rushdie's new book http://www.ireland.com:80/newspaper/features/1999/0515/fea16.htm For What It's Worth: Joni is a composite character in Salmon Rushdie's newest book (the Rev) Vince, who searches the Internet for anything with Joni's name in it so you don't have to ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:11:24 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: Saving Our List (NJC) Try version 4.51 of Netscape, it has the mail filters incorporated in the program. You just run them from the Edit box. You can send unwanted emails directly to the Trash File or any mailbox of your choice. Eric Taylor wrote: > > I've only had to resort to filtering email once when I couldn't > unsubscribe from a newsgroup. But it's SO easy with Internet Explorer. In > Outlook Express just click Tools & Inbox Assistant to block out email by > address or subject. > Netscape SUCKS! > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:26:06 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: (NJC) Ken, all the really cool people use Netscape 4.51! (the Rev) Vince, accepting no private emails on this subject "Ken (Slarty)" wrote: > Try version 4.51 of Netscape, it has the mail filters incorporated in the > program. > You just run them from the Edit box. You can send unwanted emails directly to > the > Trash File or any mailbox of your choice. > > Eric Taylor wrote: > > > > > I've only had to resort to filtering email once when I couldn't > > unsubscribe from a newsgroup. But it's SO easy with Internet Explorer. In > > Outlook Express just click Tools & Inbox Assistant to block out email by > > address or subject. > > Netscape SUCKS! > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:27:44 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: (NJC) Vince Lavieri wrote: > Ken, all the really cool people use Netscape 4.51! I Know. ;^) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:43:50 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: Save Our List (long but earnest!) [and nonsense]. Netgirl is absolutely trying to fabricate a justification. I never said anything whatsoever that any reasonable person would call scurillous, abusive, or personally insulting rhetoric or namecalling. She is now trying to justify her clear violation of the oldest rule in the book. Publishing a private email without permission.We were having a serious discussion when out of the blue she took personal offense at certain specific statistical comparisons and analogies I was using to express a view. I said "more kids under five die in wswimming pools than by guns every year" which is a true statistic and it demonstrates the folly of relying solely on statistics. She thought this was horrible and offensive. Give me a break. She wasnt "outing" me for nothing. She purposely and unilaterally raised the discussion to personal level and then printed a remark I made totally out of context. If she has the guts to reprint any specifc comments I made that she wants to demonstrate its fine with me but repost the entire post. When she did this at the same time she said well if your going to say things (the horror the horror) like this then post them to the list. I took her offense to be almost laughable because I knew that in the context of her own responses she must be kidding. the reason for the rule is its too easy to make someone look bad. You insult them the when they respond you go public and whine about it. She has provided exhibit A as per why the rule was invented. There is no justification. She could send anything i wrote to Les and he would tell me. Ive been on the list for two years and I have never purposely tried to offend anyone unless they insulted me first. My record is clean over a long period of time. Catgirl is a thin skinned person who because she says she had a traumatic personal experience with guns something hit her switch. How is anyone to know that discussing political views with someone is stepping on an emotional landmine. This is more like if you cant stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen. Now she is trying to justify using the subjective to "in my opinion he deserved it" justify her actions. isnt that what the entire thread was about. How the law is the arbiter not some punk in the high school. Doesnt everyone feel justified when they do something wrong. I know the trenchcoat mafia did. Character implies one admits they did wrong and move on. Lack of character opens the door to anything goes. THAT was what happened. Things can get heated in any discussion about politics. that is the first rule of playing the game. You get immediately 86'd from many lists for doing what she did. The whole gist of what some considered a "nasty" post was grow up. She even admits she did what she did because she "needed protection". from Who. From what ? I absolutely never persisted in sending abusive posts to anyone ever and I resent her saying so or implying that I did. She even posted my name in the first title. THAT was unconsionable. She owes everyone on this list an apology. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 19:57:56 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: Re: NJC: Save Our List (long but earnest!) [and nonsense]. DO NOT E-MAIL ME OR COPY ME OFF-LIST ABOUT ANYTHING AGAIN. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 22:21:30 -0400 From: "Eric G. Postel" Subject: In Memory -- One Year Ago Howdy one and all. Its hard to believe that its one year but it is indeed that long since the first Joni tour in many years. I have seen literally hundreds of concerts by many artists over the last 25 years but the two nights at the Gorge were really special. Especially the 16th. Simon and I and a bunch of Dylan regulars were in about the 12th row right in the middle. There was no wind and basically no back drop behind Joni and the band -- just the gorge. because of the lack of wind, the sound was absolutely pristine. And Joni's set was one of her best ever. If she never goes on tour again or I never see another concert, this is one I'll always remember so thanks Joni and band. I'll be listening to the tapes of the tour all week just as a reminder/homage. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:04:43 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Saving Our List (NJC) Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 21:41:58 -0400 From: dsk Ken (Slarty) wrote: > Try version 4.51 of Netscape, it has the mail filters incorporated in > the program. You just run them from the Edit box. You can send unwanted > emails directly to the Trash File or any mailbox of your choice. > > Eric Taylor wrote: > > I've only had to resort to filtering email once when I couldn't > > un.su.bscribe from a newsgroup. But it's SO easy with Internet Explorer. > > In Outlook Express just click Tools & Inbox Assistant to block out > > email by address or subject. > > Netscape SUCKS! Right now I'm using Netscape 3.01, which doesn't have a mail filter. I've stayed at this lower version so I can test my web designs, since one of the "rules" is to design for the lowest end in order to be viewable by the most users. It might be time to ignore that rule. Or, maybe it's time to get a second computer (I'm visiting fantasyland now). This could get expensive. And I'm really really trying to not get captured by the Microsoft monster. You can all see the results of that. Solid caps, exclamatory phrases, words like sucks....oh no... :-D Thanks very much for the information. I didn't know the current browsers had such filters. I may be using one of them sooner than I wanted to... Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:00:36 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: Where Did Our Love Go?] In a message dated 5/16/1999 1:19:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pward@lightspeed.net writes: << I read the morning JMDL on the screen It was full of messages, some were mean Wouldn't they like their peace Don't we get bored And we call for the three great stimulants Of the exhausted ones Honesty, tolerance and innocence Tolerance and innocence No pranks have ever rumbled through our list and the drone of the internet can make us clench our fist We logon for love, not to get pissed And we call for the three great stimulants Of the exhausted ones Honesty, tolerance and innocence Tolerance and innocence Oh and deep in the night Emails find us Hurt us and blind us Deep in the night While listers sit up writing posts We lose the members we like the most They'd like to slam free choice behind us I saw a little lister on the net He said, "I can nail someone I've never met" "Let me show you how these petty accusations can torment you!" Call for the three great stimulants Of the exhausted ones Honesty, tolerance and innocence Tolerance and innocence Oh and deep in the night Emails find us Hurt us and blind us Deep in the night While listers sit up writing posts We lose the members we like the most They'd like to slam free choice behind us Last night I dreamed I saw the monitor flicker The digests fell like buffalo Everything got sicker And to the bitter end The list members bickered And we call for the three great stimulants Of the exhausted ones Honesty, tolerance and innocence Tolerance and innocence Oh these times, these times Oh these changing times Change in the heart of JMDLkind Oh these troubled times "Anyone will tell you, just how hard it is to make and keep a friend..." Feeling a little melancholy today, missing the friendlier times here. Leslie Steve Mixon http://www.cruzio.com/~stevem >> which Joni song do we song this diddy to? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 00:22:24 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) In a message dated 5/16/1999 7:31:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, slarty@total.net writes: << Vince Lavieri wrote: > Ken, all the really cool people use Netscape 4.51! I Know. ;^) >> I thought I was cool but I don't know if I have this so am I not cool or can I just download this thingy above? Catgirl..showing her computer illiteracy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:25:11 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: [Fwd: Where Did Our Love Go?] > And we call for the three great stimulants > Of the exhausted ones > Honesty, tolerance and innocence > Tolerance and innocence Catgirl wrote: >which Joni song do we song this diddy to? I would assume "The Three Great Stimulants". I actually had to really think about this one - should have been easy, since the name is in the lyrics of the parody, but somehow I missed it about three times. You probably did the same! Mind you, I don't listen to Dog Eat Dog very often, since I only have it on vinyl. Must be time to update the CD collection again! Helen NP - Alanis Morissette - Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie. Still on the first song of the first run-through, so I'm reserving judgement till I've heard it a few times! ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #218 ************************** The Song and Album Voting Booths are open! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: Glossary project: Send a blank message to for all the details. FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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