From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #213 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, May 13 1999 Volume 04 : Number 213 TapeTree #8 is ready to roll. To sign up go to: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Breaking the Pop Stranglehold (NJC now) [Don Rowe ] S'toon Jazz Fest [evian ] Re: Breaking the Pop Stranglehold (NJC now) ["Kakki" ] book coupon for Canucks (NJC) [evian ] I have to ask [John.Mitchell@ascend.com] Re: I have to ask [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: NJC - My last post about gun control ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Leonard Cohen & Joni ["John Low" ] Re: VH-1 Storytellers NJC ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Leonard Cohen & Joni ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Joan of Arc (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: I have to ask [Ashara@aol.com] NJC: Guns-R-US [Kate Tarasenko ] Re: NJC: resp to: Guns-R-US [MDESTE1@aol.com] NJC: Guns-R-US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Vince Lavieri ] SoCal JMDL Get Together Manana (JC) ["Kakki" ] JMDL Party at Les Deux Cafes? ["Kakki" ] Re: NJC: resp to: Guns-R-US [Vince Lavieri ] Re: NJC: goodbye for now [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re NJC: Guns-R-US [Kate Tarasenko ] The Biz + Angels (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: The Biz + Angels (NJC) ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Breaking the Pop Stranglehold (NJC now) - --- Kakki wrote: > There may be > ever-evolving revolutions in the > music business but whatever works most successfully > will no doubt be sucked > right back into the starmaker machinery vortex of > whatever megalith record > companies survive the latest revolution. I agree, but the idea of setting up companies where the artists have a vested financial interest, and are compensated in stock options and revenue sharing is a GREAT idea. This sort of "music company", for lack of a better word, could be stable enough to create and survive in a small to medium-sized niche market. And if, for example, a merger proposition came to such a company from one of the giants, it would have to be approved by the board of directors, on which would sit - -- the artists! So even if they did get "swallowed up" it would have to be on terms that the artists would accept as fair and productive. Kind of makes me wonder why something like this didn't happen a long time ago -- unless it did, and I just don't know about it! Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:36:54 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Graham's Favorite is Who??!! Egads! Last night while watching part of VH-1's "History of Rock & Roll," it was going on and on about Bob Dylan with testimonials from everyone about what a great influence he was/is. Then, from Graham Nash himself come the words along the lines of : Bob Dylan is by far my favorite poet of all time. Ha! I pronounced my indignation at this statement and my brother-in-law said, "Yeah, but did Joni dump him?" "Well, yeah," I said. "Well," he said. "Case closed." Harumphhh!! Still waiting to see that big Joni segment on the show ... maybe tonight. (Hey, maybe Bob himself could review how he told JM that next to her, his chords sounded like a hillbilly's. Bob? You out there?) Lindsay Moon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:50:54 -0600 From: evian Subject: S'toon Jazz Fest Just got the flyer for the Saskatoon JazzFest in the mail today, and they had a funny Joni mention. They were asking for donations, saying "$5 will buy us someone to pick up so-and-so from the airport", "$800 will pay for 5 mins of Pat Metheny's show" and, the best, "$75 will allow us to make our annual 'Joni Mitchell, please come home and play the JazzFest' calls". Just thought it was cute.... Evian np: Car Wheels, for the first time... not too shabby, but I am only on track 3.. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:36:35 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Breaking the Pop Stranglehold (NJC now) Don wrote: > I agree, but the idea of setting up companies where > the artists have a vested financial interest, and are > compensated in stock options and revenue sharing is a > GREAT idea. So even if they did get "swallowed > up" it would have to be on terms that the artists > would accept as fair and productive. And with the greater combined lack of business naivete among artists today, it just might work. I really hope it does - it's so disheartening to see what artists have gone through. > Kind of makes me > wonder why something like this didn't happen a long > time ago -- unless it did, and I just don't know about > it! A somewhat historical example I think of is A&M Records which had similar ideals at its inception. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:02:23 -0600 From: evian Subject: book coupon for Canucks (NJC) For the Canadians on the list, you can get a 10 dollar coupon from Chapters bookstore, with no minimum purchase. As well, for the month of May, shipping is free within Canada, so this is a good deal to take advantage of. The coupons can only be used online, so you will have to order books, rather than taking the coupon # to the store. I found the link to the coupon from the sympatico mag they send out, but I don't think you have to use sympatico as your ISP, since I think the mag is sold on newstands. To get the coupon, go to www.chapters.ca/netlife and enter the contest, and they will email the coupon. Evian np: Lucinda still... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:01:55 -0700 From: John.Mitchell@ascend.com Subject: I have to ask I have been reading JMDL for quite a while now, but I still don't know what SIQUOMB is. Anybody care to fill me in? Thanks. BTW, who wrote "Joan of Arc?" I rather liked the poetry. johnm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:13:06 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: I have to ask John asks the ultimate question: <> At a point early on, Joni was working on her own mythology, and it included clans called the MOSALM (Maybe our souls are little men), and the POSALL (Perhaps our souls are little ladies). The leader or queen or whatever was SIQUOMB (She is queen undisputedly of Mind Beauty) That may not be exact but it's close enough :~) <> That was a Leonard Cohen lyric... Bob NP: Limblifter, "Cordova" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:46:45 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: NJC - My last post about gun control CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: <> Thank you for such excellent research & eloquence, Clark! This is the real ammunition with which Americans need to arm themselves. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:47:45 -0700 From: Jenaya Dawe Subject: EBay NJC So what's the ettiquite for dueling JMDLer's on eBay? LOL!! Jenaya... who just began bidding against "Man Of The Canyon" for a songbook. *Hi Mark* http://www.playnetwork.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 16:02:04 PDT From: "John Low" Subject: Re: Leonard Cohen & Joni Ken Slarty suggested that "Joan of Arc" may possibly have been about Joni. And, James Leahy said it might have been Janis Joplin. However, Ira Nadel in his "Leonard Cohen: A Life in Art" says that the inspiration for this song was Nico. Dorman & Rawlins also say this in their biography of Leonard Cohen, "Prophet of the Heart". "Chelsea Hotel" was written for Janis Joplin. Maybe we will have to settle for Susan Chaloner's thought that she "should have" been in 'Suzanne'. Yes, I can see JM as "our lady of the harbour". John. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:20:29 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: VH-1 Storytellers NJC CaTGirl627@aol.com wrote: <> Good one Tweetie! We wouldn't want to violate anyone's copyright.... Mum, E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:37:55 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: Leonard Cohen & Joni There is a Leonard Cohen news group( alt.music.leonard-cohen ) to which I posed the question of Joni references in Leonard's music/poems. I'll forward any responses to the list. John Low wrote: > Ken Slarty suggested that "Joan of Arc" may possibly have been about Joni. > > And, James Leahy said it might have been Janis Joplin. > > However, Ira Nadel in his "Leonard Cohen: A Life in Art" says that the > inspiration for this song was Nico. Dorman & Rawlins also say this in their > biography of Leonard Cohen, "Prophet of the Heart". > > "Chelsea Hotel" was written for Janis Joplin. > > Maybe we will have to settle for Susan Chaloner's thought that she "should > have" been in 'Suzanne'. Yes, I can see JM as "our lady of the harbour". > > John. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:02:34 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Joan of Arc (NJC) James Leahy wrote: >I think I read somewhere that Joan of Arc was about Janis Joplin. Chelsea Hotel certainly was. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:19:14 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: I have to ask John Mitchell, in a perplexed state asks: << I have been reading JMDL for quite a while now, but I still don't know what SIQUOMB is. Anybody care to fill me in? >> Since this is one of the most frequent questions asked......From one of the most interesting articles (IMHO) on the JMDL, Joni Mitchell: From Blue to Indigo (Part 1 of 4) Article by William Ruhlman - February 17, 1995: "Unlike nearly all aspiring songwriters, the Mitchells put their business together properly at the start. "The one thing I had was my own publishing company," Joni said. "Chuck and I set up two publishing companies. That was at his instigation. That was very insightful." Joni's company was called Siquomb Publishing, and the name came from one of her many writing projects. As she would explain on Philadelphia radio station WMMR in March 1967, she was writing a mythology, the names of its various members derived from acronyms based on descriptive phrases. There were, for instance, a race of miniature women, the Posall ("Perhaps Our Souls Are Little Ladies"), and men, the Mosalm ("Maybe Our Souls Are Little Men"). Siquomb was the queen of the mythology, her name meaning, "She Is Queen Undisputedly Of Mind Beauty." Read the whole article at: < http://www.jmdl.com/articles/gold1.htm > Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:06:17 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: NJC: Guns-R-US Thanks to Carlton for his research and steady insight into the ongoing controversy about gun control. (And I do hope it's NOT your last word on the issue, C!) Sadly, I think it's an issue that can never be fully conceded by either side because the argument keeps veering off the track -- Marcel and others continually bring up Waco and NATO, and I think that an arsenal-compound headed by a Jesus impersonator with a death wish, and joint armed actions against genocidal despots are off the point of this particular debate. Okay, so let's talk about militias for a moment which, again, is OFF THE POINT OF THE DEBATE. There is no doubt that incidents like Kent State were horrendous. Look also at the labor strikes in the early part of this century -- the militia were called out regularly to put down peaceful pickets. There was a time when illegal actions by state-run militias were more the rule than the exception and, like slavery, are stains on the collective heritage of our country. But I'm sure no one is implying that if those college students (or strikers) had guns, it would have resulted in some kind of a preventative measure against violence, are you? Or that these protesters would have been able to out-gun the cops, so hip-hip-hooray for America? (The answer is to better train the militia and make them accountable for illegal actions against citizens!) That's why introducing these types of incidents into this particular discussion makes no sense. At any rate, my acerbic tone aside, I thought I'd throw some more numbers into THE discussion, because they're pretty alarming: *For every single act of self-defense or legally-justifiable shooting in the U.S., there are 4 unintentional shootings, 7 criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (New England Journal of Medicine, 1986). *Total gun-related deaths in Colorado in 1997 = 472. Of this total, there were: 15 legal interventions (or shootings of undetermined intent); 9 accidental shootings; 96 homicides; and 352 suicides. (Source: Colorado Department of Health) *Total gun-related deaths in the U.S. in 1995 = 35,563 (fatal accidents = 1,225; homicides = 15,835; suicides = 18,503); Total gun-related deaths in Canada in 1994 = 1,189; Total gun-related deaths in the U.K. in 1994 = 277; Total gun-related deaths in Sweden in 1992 = 200; Total gun-related deaths in Japan in 1995 = 93. Numbers are great equalizers, regardless of the emotional issues that people want to attach to the gun control debate. But if you choose to become emotional, get angry, and GET INVOLVED! NOT my last word on the subject!^) Kate in CO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:54:47 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: resp to: Guns-R-US If you believe that Waco has nothing to do with gun control or that the concept of a militia is off the debate THAT is purposely refusing to consider the single most important reason for having a weapon other than hunting which rarely occurs in urban areas. What kind of intellectual denial does that reveal ? This position would be ludicrous if you werent serious. Like, lets discuss the game of baseball but lets leave out the bases and the ball because they are OFF TOPIC. With over 200 million people being killed by organized government military action against civilians in this century what does it take before the concept of "threat by government" creeps into your reality. There are 23 places on this planet today in which organized government forces are mass murdering civilians and guess what the common denominator is, gun control. So the reason why you are wrong about not including Waco's and Ruby Ridges is because when the government asks the population to disarm itself and leave itself defenseless against potential government assault it must trust that the government would NEVER use its power against any citizen. Waco demonstrated not only that the US government WOULD use tanks against civilians BUT that the gun control liberals would sit by totally silent AND reelect the guy who literally did it. You fall into the liberal trap of defining when it is OK for the government to violate OTHER peoples rights. The constitution disagrees with you. As for statistics such as those you quote: How many incidents in which a home owner or apartment dweller fended off or chased away an intruder (potential rapist or murderer) with his weapon are even reported. Answer: none. But how about this. 60,000 people every year are killed by automobiles. MORE children under five are killed by swimming pools than by guns. Tens of thousands of people each year are killed by someone who was already CONVICTED of premeditated murder. All police and law enforcement agencies know and understand this. The bottom line is that any law or confiscation measure is only obeyed by the law abiding so what you are truly demanding in effect is that the population must be defenseless. Picture it this way. If you had a gun pointed at an intruder and the intruder had a gun pointed at you your position is that you would toss yours out the window and you would be safer. Those who misuse guns and those in the process of using one to committ suicide are the LEAST likely to obey gun laws or turn theirs in. Good intentions dont necessarily make good laws. What counts is whether the laws will ultimately save lives. There are 240 million guns already in circulation in this country. Confiscation would leave only the law abiding defenseless. Is that the goal. It was in Kosovo. Just ask the Serbians. respectfully yours. marcel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:05:06 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC: Guns-R-US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kate Tarasenko wrote: > Okay, so let's talk about militias for a moment which, again, is OFF > THE POINT OF THE DEBATE. There is no doubt that incidents like Kent > State were horrendous. Look also at the labor strikes in the early part > of this century -- the militia were called out regularly to put down > peaceful pickets. There was a time when illegal actions by state-run > militias were more the rule than the exception and, like slavery, are > stains on the collective heritage of our country. But I'm sure no one > is implying that if those college students (or strikers) had guns, it > would have resulted in some kind of a preventative measure against > violence, are you? Or that these protesters would have been able to > out-gun the cops, so hip-hip-hooray for America? (The answer is to > better train the militia and make them accountable for illegal actions > against citizens!) That's why introducing these types of incidents into this > particular discussion makes no sense. Kate, I am as puzzled at this as you are. Marcel brought up Kent State and Waco. It is the Ohio National Guard that was armed at Kent State, not students' the vision of armed students shooting it out with the Ohio National Guard is chilling... and contradictory to what the students were protesting. So what the hell is Kent State being brought up for by gun advocates? And Waco - if the Branch Davidians did not have the immense arsenal that they had, there would have no incident... and during the standoff the Branch Davidians certainly showed a willingness to use those guns against law enforcement officials, as well as burn their own fortress down around their heads. I am thinking of the mugged woman with a gun in her purse; she gets held up and her purse gets taken from her; a gun would have done her no good, and if she had a gun in her purse, there would be one more gun floating around out there, now in the hands of muggers willing to use guns. How does that make us more safe? Kate, and Colin, and the rest; I am so much relieved by your postings, to hear the rational thought process at work, for frankly, Marcel scares me. I am picturing Allison Krause in the days before the shootings at Kent State putting a flower in a guardsman's rifle barrel, the day before she was murdered by the guard. The gun fanatics, and the concealed weapons fantasies... picture Allison Krause pulling out her concealed weapon to shot that member of the guard instead to rid her campus of the guard. The end result would not have not have 4 dead in Ohio, but scores, maybe hundreds. Thank God that Allison Krause was only armed with her flower. Who would we rather be... Allison Krause with her fingers on a flower, ending up dead, or the member of the guard who pulled the trigger on May 4th and shot her in in the chest, causing her to die in the ambulance? There are worse things than death; contributing to violence and death is one of those worse things. But wait, Kate: If Jesus had a gun, and had shot at the Roman soldiers, I wouldn't be a minister now! But then Peter had a sword... Jesus rebuked him and told Peter to put the sword away. Damn idiot, that Jesus... he and the disciples should have been armed to the teeth! Jesus should have said, "A gun, a gun I give to you..." and the angel should have said, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you glad tidings of guns... and his Name will be Jesus, Prince of Guns..." Kate, the more I think about it, Jesus was a damned anti-gun lunatic, frightfully naive and just another liberal leftist. I gotta get me a gun and go shot myself some converts. If every student at Columbine had a gun then in the smoke and confusion and chaos everyone could have started shooting each other and we would have a real death toll, not the wimpy 15 dead. I gotta get my grandson a gun; he's 4, he can pull a trigger; next time his step-father tells him no about something, he can show that bastard a thing or two about respect for my grandson... Gotta quit following Jesus and stop passing out bread and wine at communion and pass out guns and ammo! The man who stole a gun and shot and killed my cousin, Sgt. Lawrence "Mike" Lavieri, LA County Sheriff in 1985, I got send him a gun too; he was just exercising his 2nd Amendment right to tell a cop to buzz off, that no American should be outgunned by a cop, since cops are, after all, the precusor of the police state, and the woman who my cousin's killer was threatening, she should have respected a man with a gun who knows how to use it... why should my cousin's killer be in jail without a gun when in 1985 he was merely playing David Koresh and saying no matter who he was abusing, he had a right to be fully armed and use it against law enforcement officials who infringed his rights when they told him to drop the gun. Kate, sorry, writing this email has convinced me that Marcel is so right, and you are a pinko leftist, perhaps one of those Jesus followers! Gotta go; gun store is still open... (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:45:07 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: SoCal JMDL Get Together Manana (JC) Jimdlers, The SoCal group has organized a last minute get-together tomorrow night to see the exhibit of Henry Diltz's photography in Newport Beach. Diltz hung out with Joni, CSNY and other great musicians in the 60s and took some of the most fantastic photos of them. All the photos (approximately 40) exhibited are for sale. I heard on another list that Graham Nash showed up there a few weeks ago. For any locals who may want to join us (Lindsay, Davina, David, Craig? (and where are you these days, Craig?;-) and any one else from more distant parts who may be interested here are the details: Where: Sutton Place Hotel Art Gallery 4500 Macarthur Blvd. Newport Beach, California (949) 476-2001 When: Around 8:30 p.m. (with weeknight traffic we have to allow for time - and the Gallery is open 24 hours) Who: Steve and Michele Dulson, Ken Corral and Steve J, Clark Carlton, Darice (all the way from NorCal) and me. Afterward we plan to converge for a nightcap at Muldoon's Pub on Newport Center Drive in Newport Beach. They always have great drinks, desserts and live music. Hope to see some more of you there! Kakki NP: They Can't Take That Away From Me - Natalie Cole at Stormy Weather ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:55:39 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: JMDL Party at Les Deux Cafes? Since I posted about Les Deux Cafes I have received about 10 private posts from jimdlers wanting to plan a party there soon. Including of course, our local group, I have amazingly received 3 posts from Northern California listers and 3 from listers in other states! Everyone sounds very serious about wanting to plan something there soon - so since I'm in party mode I wanted to ask the group if we should work on planning together in the next month or so. As of now, I believe that Les Deux only has live music and possibly an open mike night on Thursdays. This would be optimal for us, I think, but I will also check to see if they are expanding their music nights (I heard a rumor that they were doing this). A weekend night would probably be better for everyone. If we get a group together we can also plan some other events and parties for that weekend. Any listmembers who may be interested in this, please email me privately and I'll see what we can put together in the next month or so. Kakki NP: Gloomy Monday - Bjork ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:37:34 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: NJC: resp to: Guns-R-US Marcel, In the name of my dead cousin, a deputy sheriff shot and killed with a stolen gun, and in the name of my friends who have been killed, in urban settings, with stolen guns, guns that were legally possessed but then stolen, I can only say that we have to get every we can out of circulation, and if I ever have the opportunity to take guns away from you, I will, to keep them out of your hands and whoever else's hands they might fall into. This is not very pastoral, but Marcel, fuck off. Get another obsession. My cousin Lucia, my only surviving cousin, the sister of my murdered cousin, and I are going to be damned if we allow your sentiments to prevail. You think you are passionate on this subject: my dead cousin, a law enforcement shot and killed, gives me a passion you cannot comprehend with your theories and your rationalizations. And yes, we are also against the death penalty, even though it was our Mickey who was killed. And a group of illegal aliens, Mexicans, in fact, unarmed, surrounded Lionel Henry, a man who shot and injured another cop, assaulted a woman, and then became the killer of Mickey, and they beat the shit out of Lionel Henry, who now is in Soledad. I hope your tax dollars pay for Lionel Henry's upkeep (we are against the death penalty, remember) because your attitude leads me to believe that you support the killing of cops, the killing of anyone, because you put your abstract love of guns over the reality of dead people. Don't ever use the cry of Waco to a person whose law enforcement relative was killed by people with the mindset of the Branch Davidians. I have church members who work for the IRS, one former member near Oklahoma City, where the Remember Waco crowd had their anniversary response. By the grace of God she wasn't in that building that day, but 160 plus people were, including children, and fuck everyone who cries about Waco, people armed to the teeth who used their weapons against law enforcement agents and burned their own place down over the heads and killed by burning their own children. And thus our family has a particular reason to love illegal aliens, too, and we welcome them to our shores. I hope your tax dollars support all kinds of medical and educational services for illegal aliens, as the children of the illegal Mexicans who disarmed and detained Mickey's killer - risking their own illegal status in doing so - deserve every good thing. Marcel, I am in the JMDL for the spirit of Joni, music, love, peace, all that, but just last we had a family remembrance of Mickey and I have no tolerance for your shit on guns anymore. Someone else may call me down on this, and if so, they will be right, and I will accept rebuke, but not from you, for to you I can only say, to hell with all the guns, to hell with the excuses for gun, and to hell with all the intellectual posing that justifies guns and ignores the blood of the dead. (I do not say, to hell with you, for one day, you may be healed). If I were Jesus, I would overturn all your gun markets and gun stores and destroy all your weapons. I know Jesus will do that when Christ comes again. Come quickly, my Lord, come quickly. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:05:06 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: goodbye for now In a message dated 5/12/1999 11:01:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bokonon@texas.net writes: << My divorce settlement says my ex-wife gets this computer. That's fine; except it means I'll be off the list for a month or two; however long it takes me to get settled in and build a new one. Until then, thank you very much for all you've taught me about Joni, and many other things... I may not post often, but I'm sure going to miss this list. >> Good Luck Alan and come back to us soon! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 21:38:01 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: Re NJC: Guns-R-US Marcel, After reading your inflamed and passionate response to my post, I was going to answer by picking apart all your scathing and scattered points. But I decided that I'd be falling into the trap of being baited by your own "leftist" rant (takes one to know one!^). But I do think that I owe you an apology -- by posting well-documented statistics and anecdotal evidence, as well as some unbiased numbers -- screaming with logic -- I have inadvertently baited YOU. I'll let slide your accusations of my alleged "intellectual denial" (sniff), and "defining when it is OK for the government to violate OTHER people's rights" -- there are other things in your posts which I find far more disturbing. Previously as well as now, you compare guns to cars and swimming pools (!), you hypothesize some bizarre and outlandish (as well as unlikely) scenarios ("If you had a gun pointed at an intruder and the intruder had a gun pointed at you, your position is that you would toss yours out the window"), and you pass off opinions as facts: "Tens of thousands of people each year are killed by someone who was already CONVICTED of premeditated murder" and "Those who misuse guns and those in the process of using one to commit suicide are the LEAST likely to obey gun laws or turn theirs in." Oh, dang, there I go, nitpicking your post when I said I wouldn't. I guess all I really wanted to say is this: I can think of no better case for gun control than these things you continually bring up in your reliably dogmatic, factually-unsupported and emotional tirades. Just as respectfully, Kate, feet planted firmly in reality, in CO ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:00:36 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: The Biz + Angels (NJC) Kakki wrote: "often there were also more fair and honorable deals for some of the artists. I think the artists of today could benefit from studying history a bit and take a cue from what did work for the artists in the old days. " HI Kakki- Art Neville, Aaron Neville, The Meters, Little Richard, Eddie Powers(A Million Tears, Gypsy Woman- songs that knocked the Beatles out of the #1 slot at the time) would disagree big time with this point. Can you clue me on any artists that got fair to great deals back in the 50's and 60's? I am thinking the internet with a combination of good ol fashion touring alot, and a good publicity network is the way. Cheers Michael PS I am sure we told all those stories about Ashara's angels. I am going to have to dig thru some of those old digests. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:26:11 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: The Biz + Angels (NJC) Hi Michael, I wrote: > "often there were > also more fair and honorable deals for some of the artists. I think the > artists of today could benefit from studying history a bit and take a cue > from what did work for the artists in the old days. " Michael wrote: > Art Neville, Aaron Neville, The Meters, Little Richard, Eddie Powers(A > Million Tears, Gypsy Woman- songs that knocked the Beatles out of the #1 > slot at the time) would disagree big time with this point. Can you clue > me on any artists that got fair to great deals back in the 50's and > 60's? I am thinking the internet with a combination of good ol fashion > touring alot, and a good publicity network is the way. Oh, I'm always so misunderstood! ;-( I prefaced that statement with the acknowledgment of the abuses in the old days and have commented a number of times about that in other posts. I certainly never meant to imply it was all more fair and honorable in the old days - I've heard my own share of complete horror stories over the years from artists big and small and am glad that some of the people who were rip-offed are now successfully seeking redress - every successful case serves to strengthen to law in artists' favor. A friend of mine, a musician who was ripped off for years, finally got so fed up he went back to school in his 40s and became a lawyer to fight for all musicians who'd been abused. He is now winning many landmark decisions in the courts. However, I have discovered through my work that in *some* individual cases, the artists received a much nicer set-up than they do these days. This was an eye-opener for me, because I'd always assumed it was ALL bad in the old days. This is why I've now become interested in studying more of the music biz history - there are many good nuts and bolts and history books out there for people who work in the biz or related biz. I want to find examples of where certain aspects of the way busines was done was better in the past (even if they are examples that are the rare exception) and I just think it may also be helpful for artists now to check it out. There may be some clues to help them in negotiating their deals, or maybe even some good clues and ideas for the newly-forming artist-run labels. I cannot give you names because my work is confidential but in a general sense I've learned that there was a much less draconian and complicated set-up in some cases in the past. In some cases, there wasn't the "spend millions and have all the control" on the part of the record company and then making the artist pay for all the unrecouped costs for the rest of their lives and generally treat them like shit. There were simpler and straighter deals. In some cases, the record companies paid for a more equitable share of the costs and did not charge it up all to the artist. In some instances it was more straight-ahead in many ways, whether it be from a financial or an artistic standpoint. Of course, they were simpler and straighter times back then. But maybe there are a few nuggets of good ideas to salvage from the past. As always, now or in the past, one of the best things artists can do to protect themselves is to have a smart, ethical, wise and tough negotiator/agent/lawyer making the deal for them. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #213 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! 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