From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #209 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, May 11 1999 Volume 04 : Number 209 TapeTree #8 is ready to roll. To sign up go to: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: gracias ken [Gellerray@aol.com] Re: gracias ken ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Dancin' Clown (article excerpt) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Joni from a to b to c to d, etc..... [MGVal@aol.com] FWIW, Bijou Phillips/Doobies [Vince Lavieri ] Re: FWIW, Bijou Phillips/Doobies ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni from a to b to c to d, etc..... [Ginamu@aol.com] (NJC)Testing(NJC) [Don Rowe ] Today in Joni History - May 11 [Today in Joni History ] Joni Mitchell on VH-1 storytellers [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Cherokee Louise [michael paz ] Re: Cherokee Louise [Mark Domyancich ] Re: gracias ken NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: NJC - Moms [Bounced Message ] Re: NJC--NATO Imperialism--NJC [Bounced Message ] NJC - any copyright experts on the list? [Les Irvin ] Re: After The Goldrush ["John Low" ] New JMDL Digest Subcriber [Hyatt McClennen ] Re: New JMDL Digest Subcriber NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: What's Goin On? NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] NJC - PHANTOM MENACE, final comments on Kosovo - very long! [CarltonCT@ao] PART 2 - Kosovo NJC [CarltonCT@aol.com] Back from the dead and ready to talk! (was:Re: Dancin' Clown (article excerpt)) [Gellerray] Re: FWIW, Bijou Phillips/Doobies (now NJC, kind of!) ["Helen M. Adcock" <] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 04:12:45 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: gracias ken In a message dated 99-05-10 03:28:34 EDT, you write: << This stuff is great and almost better and more detailed than what's been written in Joni's own two biographies! >> it's true. and not only more details, but clarity too. So many of the names and places I had heard before but the sequence is in much better order for me now. It's a great relief seeing how it all fits together, and knowing how and when joni got from a to b to c to d, etc... r ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 06:31:20 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: gracias ken Very little strain on my fingers. I used a scanner so I could save my fingers for other things. Sorry there's no more, that's about all that was in the book about Joni. Ken katej wrote: > Thanks, Ken, for all the excerpts about Joni's earlier life. I've read > various articles, but this offered some new details and I appreciate the > strain on your itty bitty fingers. Got any more? I can't get enough.... > > Curious Kate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:27:49 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Dancin' Clown (article excerpt) Since we were on the subject, here's an excerpt from a long CMIARS article that discusses it in some detail. Sorry to take the bandwidth for those who've already seen it - it helps me to APPRECIATE it more, but not necessarily like it any better... ROCK 'N' ROLL CHOIR BOYS Joni Mitchell called me up," says Tom Petty. "She said she l had a song about two street toughs and she wanted me to play one of them. I said, 'Hmm, that sounds interesting.' Then she told me Billy Idol was the other one. I said, 'That sounds very interesting.' There's a trio for ya! It was casting I just had to learn really specific bits. I think she read the words to me - it's a neat little story." The story was "Dancing Clown," Chalk Mark's most unusual track, recorded after the sessions moved home to Los Angeles in late '86. Mitchell sings the narrator's lines in a song about a bully called Rowdy Yates (Idol) picking on a victim named Jesse (Petty): Although Petty and Mitchell's voices entwine comfortably, Idol's rebel yell is as jarring in a Joni Mitchell song as a thug at a garden party. Which is the idea. "In terms of a Joni Mitchell record, it sounds quite funny," Billy Idol chuckles. "My voice sounds like a bully compared to hers! I was in L.A. to do the Grammies a year ago. A day or two later she phoned me up at the hotel and explained the idea and I went straight down and did it. It was wild, really, because no one had ever asked me to do anything! The best thing was, she used some of my backing vocals on there. No one's ever used my backing vocals before, either! I really just sang my bits. I put in a 'Hot damn!' somewhere and then I sort of did my Elvis Presley impersonation over the rest." Mitchell also sampled some of Billy's howls and shouts, and dropped them into the song's fade. No opportunity wasted. "It really was great to meet her, because I'd always liked things like Blue and The Hissing of Summer Lawns, all that sort of stuff," Idol continues. "I think she's great. The wildest thing was, her and her husband really used all the sort of disco tricks, all the studio tricks, used sampling and all that stuff. I suppose for some reason or another it didn't occur to me that everybody's doing the same thing. You still have that Laurel Canyon idea of her, even in spite of all those jazz albums and stuff. It made me realize, yeah, we're all doing the same things. She was really in command of the session. She knew exactly what she wanted, it was just a matter of getting it. I like people who know what they want to do, then you can both work at it." Idol and Petty both admit having to sweat to match Mitchell's precise timing and odd vocal rhythms. "She's a brilliant singer," Petty says. "And a very capable producer. I was impressed by her. She and her husband Larry really know their way around the studio. I was having trouble with one bit of phrasing, I kept coming in wrong. She stopped the track and I tried it once and said, 'Is that it?' She said, 'That's it we got it.' She taped me singing without the backing track and used that." Idol had a similar experience. "She had to help me to sing it really," he admits. "She has a really particular way of singing things. It was making me laugh to try to do it sometimes. But once we'd done what we set out to do it was really good fun." At that point Idol suggested they get his guitarist, Steve Stevens, in on the action. At one a.m. Stevens was recruited to add guitar to what became an eccentric track even by Joni Mitchell standards. "There's a very wide range of opinion on that song," says Larry Klein. "A lot of people love it - it's their favorite song on the record - and some people just hate it. I was just with Peter Gabriel. He loves the record, but hates 'Dancing Clown.' The people who can't quite get in on that song just need to think of it as a little play. It's like a short film." "I'm singing all over the track," Petty says, "but you wouldn't necessarily hear it - a lot of it's harmonies, and through the whole album she's gotten other voices to sound like her own, to blend together. It's a brilliant record." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:38:26 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Joni from a to b to c to d, etc..... In a message dated 99-05-10 05:21:49 EDT, Gellerray@aol.com writes: > It's a great relief seeing how it all fits together, and knowing >how and when joni got from a to b to c to d, etc... > > This was very interesting to me as well, but what sets off the most musing is the small section about her pregnancy and the first few weeks with her baby. It is surely hard enough to give birth and make the adoption decision directly before or after. But to take that baby home, realize that you just can't do it - that's has to be a real heart crusher. The Gold Rush said: "the decision haunted Joni for many years." There's one heck of an understatement! The clues in her songs are mostly just reminders to Kilauren that she's not forgotten, but the whole ordeal must have had an incredible impact on her relationship with others - men in particularly. At what point do you share this secret with a lover or is it always in some sealed off part of yourself? What are the words to tell someone with whom you are skin-to-soul-to-skin about being alone with this baby, feeding her, smelling her, struggling through post-partum, touching her and finally realizing that it's just not safe and you can't do it? And the aftermath! The aching breasts going back to normal, watching the stretch marks fade away, waiting for your period to get back into a groove. Thinking of this makes me think of that line in Jackson Browne's Joni song, "Fountain of Sorrow:" "...took your childish laughter by surprise. and at the moment that my camera happened to find you, there was just a trace of sorrow in your eyes." Did people take this as just another intriguing part of her? Some ethereal quality that set her apart? We know that right from square one, she was let down by Chuck Mitchell. She has said that one reason for marrying him was to be able to have her daughter, but then he declared that he couldn't raise someone else's child. I wonder about that impact on her future relationships: always a cloud hovering over things? Always an obstacle to trust? We talk about her musical influences but it's this emtional influence that, to me, provides the biggest impact on the course of her art and life. Thanks so much Ken for providing the "Gold Rush" sections. Musing in the morning, MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:24:20 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: FWIW, Bijou Phillips/Doobies FWIW = For What Its Worth got this tidbit from a story about Bijou Phillips, daughter of Jon Phillips (Mamas and Pappas) who is 18 and releasing album "I'd Rather eat Glass." The story is at http://www.bergen.com:80/yourtime/bijou99905063.htm She was a late bloomer who didn't learn to play guitar until age 15 (her dad taught her) but who has been a quick study ever since. As for musical influences, "I listened to Rickie Lee Jones, the Jackson 5, and Van Morrison -- he was cool. And I liked Joni Mitchell and a lot of Hendrix and my dad's music and the Beatles. And a lot of Patsy Cline, Billie Holiday, and Ella Fitzgerald." Glad to see young musicians citing Joni as an influence. The story about Doobies song Minute by Minute sung by Joni on Doobies tribute: the story was deposted from that website, but a rapper (first name Silkh and I cannot remember his last name) got the Joni wanted to do, Taking It to the Streets. Joni and Billy Joel were both wanting to sing Minute by Minute but then Joel backed out to produce his own tribute album, so that is how Joni came to sing that one. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:15:09 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: FWIW, Bijou Phillips/Doobies Vince wrote: > got this tidbit from a story about Bijou Phillips, daughter of Jon > Phillips (Mamas and Pappas) who is 18 and releasing album "I'd Rather > eat Glass." The story is at > http://www.bergen.com:80/yourtime/bijou99905063.htm Bijou and her sister MacKenzie Phillips were sitting right next to Phyliss and I during Joni's taping at Warner Brothers. They were very friendly and helped squeeze some space for me to sit down. They reminded me of happy little girls watching Joni's performance - they were just awestruck to be there and were giggling and giddy in their excitement. It was cool to see their lack of jadedness considering that they have probably been around a lot of celebrities in their lives. As for Joni covering Minute by Minute, I can't think of a better song for her. This was always my very fave of the Doobies and I think it is absolutely perfect for her. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:30:38 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni from a to b to c to d, etc..... In a message dated 5/10/99 12:44:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: > Thinking of this makes me > think of that line in Jackson Browne's Joni song, "Fountain of Sorrow:" > > "...took your childish laughter by surprise. > and at the moment that my camera happened to find you, > there was just a trace of sorrow in your eyes." I didn't realize that song was about Joni. I always assumed it was about Jackson Browne's wife who committed suicide. Gina NP: Caramel - Nine Objects Of Desire - Suzanne Vega ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 12:33:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: (NJC)Testing(NJC) Sending this out, since some strange things have been happening -- zombie messages on long dead issues six weeks ago have just started showing up -- and now the list seems dead. Just wanting to make sure I didn't get bounced ... sorry to take up the space. Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:56:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - May 11 1995: (from Wally's bio): Joni was in Washington, D.C. and did a National Public Radio show where she talked and performed 3 songs; "Sunny Sunday," "Loves Cries" and "The Three Great Stimulants." This show was taped [today] but wasn't broadcast until the 28th. - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:24:24 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Joni Mitchell on VH-1 storytellers Hey folks, My friend works for TV Guide and told me that Joni has already made a show for VH-1 storytellers. Has anyone heard of this yet or am I bring the *news* to all of you?? He will let me know when it will be aired so I will keep you posted. Does anyone know when she did this or where she did this at? I can't wait to see it. You all know how she loves to tell stories! Catgirl...getting the VCR ready and buying some high quality tapes! wooooohooooo! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 20:49:31 +0000 From: michael paz Subject: Cherokee Louise Trey wrote: "Trey np - Cherokee Louise (LOVE this song, but isn't is a BITCH to play?)" Hi Trey I have been doing this one for a while now and I really love playing it. I don't find it as hard as say Black Crow and Cold Blue Steel. It has an easy groove going that I get into and it is easy to play and sing at the same time, but some of her songs really kill me trying to sing and play at the same time. Best Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:57:47 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Cherokee Louise Black Crow? Man, that's an easy one to play! I did a second version that works a bit better than the one Howard and I worked on. I'll have to show you and Marian how to play it in September! Mark NP-Edie Brickell & NB-Stwisted >At 8:49 PM +0000 5/3/99, michael paz wrote: >I have been doing this one for a while now and I really love playing it. >I don't find it as hard as say Black Crow and Cold Blue Steel. It has an >easy groove going that I get into and it is easy to play and sing at the >same time, but some of her songs really kill me trying to sing and play >at the same time. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:14:08 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: gracias ken NJC In a message dated 5/10/1999 3:28:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << I second that emotion. I never knew many of these details, either. Thank you Kate also for scribing the excerpts from Murray's book. This stuff is great and almost better and more detailed than what's been written in Joni's own two biographies! Kakki >> ...and I third that emotion. I loved it so much that I put it in my microsoft word and printed it. Thanks...you rule! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:41:39 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: NJC - Moms Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:25:10 +0100 From: catman Scott Price wrote: > Best wishes and thank you to all moms not only on the JMDL but everywhere. > As we ponder recent tragedies and conflicts it's comforting to know that a > mother's love and commitment can be such a constant in this sometimes > tumultuous world. I think it is great to laud those mothers who are as you describe. However, i also feel it gives a false impression of mothers worldwide. many mothers are not at all as you describe. Many fathers are as you describe yet are hardly ever lauded for it. In reality, mothers are people. Some love well and some don't. there is nothing special about a mothers love. But there is something special about any persons love.The majority of children under 4 that have to visit the hospital thru abuse, were abused by their mothers. > May we recognize your tireless efforts to enrich us. May we appreciate your > sacrifices which give us so much we wouldn't otherwise have. May we see > that your caring and kindness gives us an aspiring example. May we remember > that your shining light gives us hope. And may we know that your love > completes us. > > Happy, happy, happy Mother's Day! > > Scott - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA'S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:42:42 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: NJC--NATO Imperialism--NJC Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:25:15 +0100 From: catman al_date@email.com wrote: > Colin says: > > "It is not one person but many who have > > murdered the Albanians. This is what > > happens when people do nothing and allow > > anything to happen. It is foolish to > > believe that just one man is responsible > > for the atrocities." > > Then the joke is on NATO, because NATO's official position is that if Milosevich, as Commander of the Yugoslav Army, yields to NATO demands, that the atrocities will stop. Are you saying that NATO is totally out to lunch, and that Milosevich has no control over his own troops? > > I don't know about the rest of the world, but in this part of the world I have found that people generally do what their bosses tell them to do. And is that something to be proud of? is that a good excuse for standing by whilst others are treated badly? I hope you mean to, but you sound like one of those people who would do just that-follow orders and think that absolves you.These two sentences of yours don't make sense. The intention of the bombing(which I have not said I agree with) is to stop the Serbs killing the Albanians. This will not just affect Milosovich but the people too-who are not innocent as you like to think. Children yes-adults no. There are millions of people ther and if they had wanted tos top the ethnic cleansing they could have. > And that is why Milosevich and his counterpart in the KLA can be held personally responsible for ethnic cleansing, and why Bill Clinton (and other commanders in NATO) can be held personally responsible for violating international law. THEY ISSUE THE COMMANDS THAT RESULT IN DEATH AND DESTRUCTION OF INNOCENTS. > > Winfried says > > "The truth is: the MAJORITY of Serbs have > > only gradually different viewpoints on > > Kosovo than their govt. They agree with > > the suppression of Albanians living > > there..." > > Well, imagine that! Hatred of other ethnic groups! Isn't that totally unique! Can you imagine that they actually have that in the Balkans? [sarcasm off] > > Until quite recently, the KLA was > identified by NATO as a Maoist terrorist organization. Now that this assessment conflicts with Clinton's anti-Serb spin, the KLA is identified as "Freedom Fighters." > > My point from the beginning is that there are bad boys on both sides, and that the USA should not pick sides in a civil war, or in ANY war, without the deliberation and approval of Congress. It is also true that NATO has violated its own charter as a defensive organization, and violated a laundry list of international laws, such as the Geneva Convention against bombing media and hospitals. These laws were very hard to achieve, at the expense of millions of lives in two world wars--and now they are ignored. > > If genocide is going on somewhere in the world, and if are serious about abating it, this is a matter for the United Nations to deal with. > > You will note that Russia has no problem with an international force in Albania, but that NATO insists that NATO be the force. All the more evidence that NATO needs a base in Albania or Kosovo that they cannot get from the Greeks, that they "need" as a hedge since its last bastion, Turkey, might go Islamic fundamentalist. > > No war has ever been fought solely for humanitarian reasons. In this case, the ulterior motive is probably NATO imperialism. And that is just one reason why many people in the world see NATO as acting like Nazis. > > By hastening the exodus of Kosovars, NATO has actually made the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo easier to achieve. Whether this was intentional or unwitting only time will tell. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:59:01 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: NJC - any copyright experts on the list? Joniphiles - Following is a message just received from Jeff - the gracious person who hosts the JMDL on his computers. Can anyone familiar with copyright issues help him? Thanks, Les From: Jeff Wasilko : Today I recieved notification that copyrighted material had been posted to a list at smoe.org, and then archived as part of our normal process. As a result, I may be facing a bit of a legal battle. If any of you know lawyers that may be able to give some advice on copyright law (or if any of you have any laywers on your mailing lists), I'd appreciate any assistance you can give. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:10:14 PDT From: "John Low" Subject: Re: After The Goldrush I would also like to thank Ken for the time and effort put into the serialisation of excerpts from 'After the Goldrush'. Very interesting indeed. Does anyone know if Joni made it into any of Leonard Cohen's work? John. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:07:36 -0500 From: Hyatt McClennen Subject: New JMDL Digest Subcriber Hi, everyone! My name is Debbe and I'm new to the list. I, like Tucker, have been a Joni fan since 1969. I was at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa and bought Clouds (being urged to by a few friends there)and was hooked on her lyrical ability. ("That Song About the Midway" still stirs me after all of these years.) Since that time, I have bought everything she has done. Mingus must have been over my head, because I never liked it very much. My favorite, to date, is the album Hejira. I was going through a tough time when it was released, and I found a strange comfort in relating to the words that showed the hard time that she was going thorough - as well. I also loved the album - Blue. I've loved so many!! It has always been difficult to find publications on Joni. I have "Joni Mitchell- Her Life, Her Love, Her Music " by Leonore Fleisher - which I found newly released in 1976. It's all that I have found that has so many details about her early life and on. I grew up down the street from Wayne Perkins who plays guitar on one (maybe two) of her cuts. (He also recorded with the Stones and Steely Dan.) He said that Joni was so gifted and he was in awe of her talents and her as a person. I went went him and several others to Joni's concert in Tuscaloosa in 1974 or 1975 (I foget the exact yr) and he went backstage. Though he asked, I didn't go backstage - afraid she was being hounded by too many people. She seemed quite nervous and anxious to me at that concert - but, of course, I LOVED the show. I missed the 98 tour, because (with a young son - Hyatt - and all that goes with that , I was not aware that she WAS touring. I have really beat myself up over not knowing. I could have gone to nearby Atlanta. Sorry - I have rambled on so much, but I'm just so pleased to be a part of the group and to have the luxury of sharing other people's opinions/comments on this very gifted woman. Other than a few close friends and family members, hardly anyone I know has ever heard of her. Debbe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:13:13 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: New JMDL Digest Subcriber NJC In a message dated 5/10/1999 9:11:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hyattmcc@bellsouth.net writes: << Sorry - I have rambled on so much, but I'm just so pleased to be a part of the group and to have the luxury of sharing other people's opinions/comments on this very gifted woman. Other than a few close friends and family members, hardly anyone I know has ever heard of her. Debbe >> Welcome to the list Debbe. I just joined myself about a month or so ago. The people here make me feel at home with their love for Joni. I enjoy knowing that I am not alone in this feeling. So again welcome and have fun! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:28:38 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: What's Goin On? NJC In a message dated 5/10/1999 10:15:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ashara@aol.com writes: << << Push me up to a 1.5!! >> YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! << To date: I've about 25 promo CDs for prizes! I'll keep collecting them throughout the summer. >> TRIPLE YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> Tell me more, tell me more......what are these promo CD's? Are they Joni promos????? Catgirl...getting ready to jump up and down!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:21:45 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: NJC - PHANTOM MENACE, final comments on Kosovo - very long! Hello Joni Lovers! Though I would much rather be reading all those wonderful biographical excerpts about Joni, I did want to share some thoughts and research in response to recent postings about Kosovo and gun control. I’d have posted this sooner, but my company is very busy getting ready to release PHANTOM MENACE and I assure all of you who love the STAR WARS series that it is really an amazing piece of cinema. The acting isn't always as strong as it could be, but it is one of the most visually dazzling and viscerally stirring spectacles ever committed to celluloid. Thematically, the film pertains to this recent discussion about Kosovo. Without spilling the beans, Queen Amadallah (sp?), elected ruler of the planet Naboo is forced to flee from her home after it comes under attack by the powerful Trade Federation who are exterminating her people. She addresses the Senate of the Galactic Republic and tells them something to the effect of “I demand an immediate resolution. I will not wait for a committee to investigate this crisis and watch my people die.” Later, a young Annakin Skywalker offers his services to save the Queen, telling his worried mother, “You always said the problem with this universe is people aren't willing to help each other." The tragedy of the Serbian people is enormous, and it grieves me deeply to see that the bombing campaign has resulted in unintentional civilian casualties and the fiasco of the Chinese Embassy, but I firmly believe that the aim of NATO is to avoid even greater loss of life and the ultimate destabilization of the region and future conflicts. I hope that after this crisis, that pressure can be brought to bear on the plight of the Kurds, the Tibetans, women in Afghanistan, etc. Let’s be grateful that NATO, which has lost much of its purpose since the fall of the Soviet Empire, can do something positive with its might. These other political situations are completely unacceptable, but it does not mean we shouldn't support the recent NATO effort because the Kosovars gained sudden favor and their situation is free of the political entanglements which have allowed for a multinational intervention in a genocide. Polls conducted in the NATO nations show a 70 per cent support rate for the mission. I reviewed some history as well as did some research on the zone in contention and remain resolved in my views. Please excuse the maybe too thorough and didactic nature of the following responses to a previous post. Some of it is rather hastily summarized. If you are not interested, now is the time to delete! Al Date wrote: <> I respond: In practice, the power of Congress to declare war has in fact been eroded by the realities of warfare - the War Powers Act was a post-Vietnam attempt to reassert Congress' power, but it is generally thought to be an unconstitutional restriction of the power of the Executive over the armed forces. It is given lip service, but no one wants to test it legally, for fear the Supreme Court will strike it down. The key power of the Congress is over the expenditure of funds - Congress effectively ended the Vietnam War by ending appropriations for the War, despite executive promises to defend South Vietnam. This is why Iran-Contra was so significant -- Reagan disdained Congress, and kept his war against Nicaragua going by funding it privately and through the profits of secret "off-the-books" weapons sales to Iran The problem is not a legal one, but a political one - the parties in Congress are not organized on any basis which relates to foreign policy issues, nor are there party-related, bipolar foreign ethnic constituencies - a few unipolar ones - the Israel lobby and sentimental pro-Irish feelings, etc. No Congressman or Senator has any representative interest which motivates him/her to press international issues - the only motive tends to be orientation toward the President; the Clinton-haters tend to vote against anything he is identified with [as in the vote about Kosovo]. Foreign policy issues are never winners for the Congress, just potential losers, so they tend not to want their fingerprints on any particular policy - especially the use of force. The Congress wants to be visibly consulted, but would prefer not to be directly involved in war policy. This is a structural problem in the US political system - there is no way of obtaining representative commitment to a war policy that will persist over time. The model for the President as Commander-in-Chief is George Washington and the Roman Emperor [a non-royal general] - - the Senate was supposed to operate as a sort of cabinet or privy council with the President literally sitting with them in their chamber discussing foreign policy issues. Washington tried it once, and decided that it was useless. The President cannot get much political "cover" from Congress - they shrink from it. Proactive foreign policy - Roosevelt before WW2, for example, or Truman 1947-1950 - is very difficult. Bush was a reactive President and stayed out of the Yugoslavian crisis, offering no American leadership. Clinton was not elected with any foreign policy mandate, and mini-crises like Somalia and Haiti were allowed to get out of hand. Clinton did not take charge of the Bosnia crisis until the summer of 1995. The problem is not the Cold War fight against a huge and largely secret extraconstitutional military policy establishment that intuitively lies and covers up what it is doing, but against Congressional reluctance to commit to any kind of proactive policy. In the opinion of Charles Powell, Professor of International Relations at USC, “There should have been a grand conference on Yugoslavia in 1989-1991, ending with its orderly breakup and, where necessary, population exchanges and/or transitional multiethnic protectorates. The inability of the US to take the lead at the Hague Conference of 1991, and to impose the Vance Owen Plan in 1993, guaranteed the Greek tragedy of ethnic cleansing and genocide. “ Milosevic ACCEPTED Vance-Owen, by the way! We are at the point Roosevelt was at in 1945 - how do we run the global system? It can't be just the US political system running the world - it is not set up to do this - unless we do what the Romans did - extend citizenship to everyone in the system. Yes, a true world government. The way things are going, the global economic system is slowly evolving - the World Trade Organization is an interesting regime. Politically, Kosovo is the first step in legitimating international intervention in a domestic genocide. That's a good thing. Al Date wrote: <> Al, you are very much in error. What are you reading? I am not in the Balkans and don't have first hand experience myself, but this is counter to everything that has been reported. CONTINUED IN NEXT POST ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:39:24 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: PART 2 - Kosovo NJC The Kosovo Albanians were very grateful for not being part of a greater Albania - remember the Albania of Enver Hodzha? Probably the most miserable country in Europe - right up there with North Korea in the East - a Stalinist enclave at odds with its neighbors and with both the US and the Soviet Union! Kosovars were committed Yugoslavs, and there was interethnic peace. In 1989, Milosevic threw his lot in with Serbian nationalism, and used groups of Kosovar Serbs to begin the process of taking power in Yugoslavia and moving toward a Serb-dominated system which would retain as much of Yugoslavia as possible. Kosovo was not a state in the Yugoslav federation, but like the Hungarian Voivodinja in the North, was an autonomous region of Serbia with guaranteed rights in the Yugoslav constitution. There was no dissatisfaction among the Kosovars, except as with all Yugoslavs, a desire for democracy and individual freedom. Milosevic revoked the autonomy of Kosovo and put Serbs in power in Kosovo. The 90% Albanian population followed the leadership of Ibrahim Rugova and rejected violence, adopting a Gandhian strategy of nonviolent resistance - they erected a parallel governmental structure and just ignored Belgrade and their local apparatus. They calculated that they could just hold out until the breakup of Yugoslavia and the political evolution of Serbia resulted in a democratic system. Like the Bosnians, Montenegrins and Macedonians, they preferred Yugoslavia as it existed, with its guarantees to the smaller units. There was no thinking of themselves as independent states, and certainly no desire to be absorbed by neighboring countries [by then the Albanian state had literally collapsed into chaos]. The Dayton Accords ignored Kosovo, which was ominous for the Kosovars. Almost immediately, Milosevic, was relieved of the prospect of a continued Bosnian-Croat offensive, which had swept forward in late summer of 1995, aided by US/NATO support and, eventually, air attacks. His gaze turned southward, and Serbian control increased in Kosovo - the tacit peace with the parallel Kosovar state broke down. Repressive events began to occur, even in the presence of international monitors. Some Kosovar activists began to raise the prospect of a Bosnia-like ethnic cleansing, and began to organize an armed resistance, rejecting Rugova's nonviolent strategy. They had no international support, and were virtually unknown - relying on Kosovars working elsewhere in Europe and Yugoslavia for financial support to buy small arms. Like the Nicaraguan Contras, they received support from the smugglers and drug traffickers who constituted the only organized cross-border network in the mountains. The collapse of the Albanian government, and the lack of interest by any other government [the Italians were courting the Montenegrins, the Greeks want to partition Macedonia with the Serbs], including the CIA, left these [mostly young] Kosovars [headquartered in Switzerland!] alone. They were the perfect foil for the Serb leadership, who used them as an excuse to ramp up their occupation forces and increase their repression to the level of ethnic cleansing. Even their reluctance to agree to the belated NATO initiative played into the hands of the Serbian leadership. The big winners in all of this may be the Albanians in Albania - an example of unintended consequences! Suddenly, something they never dreamed of has happened - the Americans have landed!! They are rescued from anarchy and utter poverty. If the Kosovars don't go back, they have an infusion of educated Westernized Albanians who never suffered under Hodzha. Maybe Greater Albania might become a reality, which nobody envisioned. This may look like a conspiracy to the Serb propagandists, but it is a result of their efforts, not anything intended by the Kosovars or the US. As far as the propagandistic justifications about who really has a right to Kosovo, the Albanians seem to have been there for as long as we know - the Illyrians under the Romans - the Slavs moved into the area in the decline of the Roman Empire. When the Turks succeeded the Byzantines, the Albanians converted to Islam, and nothing much happened for hundreds of years until the collapse of the Turkish Empire in the late 19th Century - with 3 Balkan Wars 1910-1913 right before WW1. The proportion of Albanians in Kosovo was always a majority, but after WW2, their percentage increased from maybe 60% or so to 90% - not surprising given the relative prosperity and political openness of Yugoslavia. The epic defeat of the Serbs was at the Field of Blackbirds in 1389 (Yes, Serbia was conquered and subdued once). It was a strange and legendary battle since the Serb King did not HAVE to attack the Turks, and was in fact pled with NOT to attack, as it was suicidal. I think the parallel is interesting - I think Milosevic persuaded himself that he had no choice - whether this will turn out to be suicidal rather than merely crazily irrational, we'll have to see. Clinton's impeachment had paralyzed American policy - even more than usual - as Milosevic turned up the repression on the Kosovars. The evident deal is clear - let the Kosovo Serbs and their piece of northern Kosovo revert to Serbia [including the Field of Blackbirds], and give the Kosovars a Bosnia-like protectorate. That should have been done in 1990, when Bob Dole visited there and saw clearly what was going to happen if nothing was done. I wrote: If the question of legality is applied to all foreign affairs, then the Nazis had the right to persecute, enslave and murder all Jews, ethnic minorities and gays within their borders. Al Date responds: <> Well, just what is International Law and administered by what body? International Law is customary law - regimes which develop through practice rather than legislation. Enforcement mechanisms come AFTER the regime is widely accepted. In 1928, all nations [maybe not the Japanese, still researching] signed the Kellogg-Briand Pact, where war was renounced as a means of national policy. The Japanese invaded China in 1932, the Italians invaded Ethiopia from Somalia in 1935, and then Hitler marched soldiers into the demilitarized Rhineland in 1936, plus Franco pulled a half-successful coup against the democratic government of Spain with German and Italian help in 1936. The 1929-1933 economic collapse paralyzed English/French response to these breaches of the peace. [Plus their reluctance to join with the Soviet Union in stopping Germany [Munich 1938]. The US had abandoned the League of Nations in 1919, and set off the economic slide with the protectionist Smoot-Hawley Tariff bill in 1928, and then failed in rescue efforts1929-1933. International law and cooperation hit a low point in the1930's and isolationism was in vogue. Al Date writes: <> There were only a few 100,000 German Jews [385,000 I think] - in contrast to much greater numbers in Poland and Russia. The idea that armed Jews could have resisted the Nazis in 1938 [Kristallnacht] is absurd. There were armed and well-organized militias as early as 1933, like the Nazi SA Brownshirts. By the time of Kristallnacht, Germany was the most militarized nation on Earth, Al Date writes: <> Al makes some good points here. But the killing of 11 1/2 million people by the German murder machine was not really put into full swing until January 1942 [the Wannsee Conference] - earlier mass killings in the occupied Baltic states in 1941 were not as efficient - and there were no foreign observers. I don't think anyone was prepared for the scale of the Final Solution - but it was true that the dimensions of the killing became known by 1943, and why the camps were not bombed is a terrible problem that still haunts us. Haunts me anyway. Before the war, the German Jewish refugees *were* an issue and the world stood by. There was the strange argument that if you took them in, you were collaborating with Hitler. Let’s not forget the German liner St. Louis in 1939, also known as Ship of the Damned, bearing Jewish refugees who could not find sanctuary even in the USA. The world was aware of Krystalnacht, and as Eric Taylor reminded us, the anti-Semitic text of Mein Kampf was widely published throughout Europe. Al Date writes: <> The US had to enter WW1 against Germany for its own eventual defense. Wilson ran on "he kept us out of war" in 1916 - he told the Germans that the US would stay out of the war unless the Germans resumed unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic - the Germans intentionally gambled that they could defeat the Allies in the West before the US could effectively deploy forces, and started sinking US shipping again, and on April 17, 1917, Wilson got the Congress to declare war - there was no serious opposition. The Germans even asked Mexico if they would like Texas and the Southwest back in return for allying with Germany [the "Zimmerman telegram"]. That is ALL I have to say about Kosovo if anyone is still reading. I do not have time to respond to future posts about this issue. I feel sure it will be resolved soon. - - Clark Carlton NP: Holst, the Cloud Messenger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 01:28:00 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Back from the dead and ready to talk! (was:Re: Dancin' Clown (article excerpt)) In a message dated 99-05-10 09:16:33 EDT, you write: << Joni Mitchell called me up," says Tom Petty. "She said she l had a song about two street toughs and she wanted me to play one of them. I said, 'Hmm, that sounds interesting.' Then she told me Billy Idol was the other one. I said, 'That sounds very interesting.' There's a trio for ya! It was casting I just had to learn really specific bits. I think she read the words to me - it's a neat little story." >> ah yes, i remember that article--in Musician, no? And though i have to say I don't always love "Dancin Clown"--I love the idea of it, and the writing. And I adore the spirit--the adventure, the way it further reveals her incredibly diverse imagination at work--all that it reveals about JM as a creator, and a completely unique songwriter/thinker/pioneer! And while we're at it--let's here it for Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm. I love that sucker--I love it more than Night Ride Home (the album as a whole i mean). Night Ride Home, which seems to be everybody's baby as far as the latter period goes. However, I love Night Ride Home and here's what i love: "first half" title track (of course), Cherokee Louise (one of my favorite joni songs ever), and Come in from the Cold (how can you not?). But still, what i love perhaps the most about Night Ride Home are its three final tracks: The Only Joy in Town, "My" :-) Dad's Cadillac, and the ever beautiful, Two Grey Rooms. Ray's dad teaches math Zero, I'm a dunce I'm a decimal in his class Last night's kisses won't erase Zero, I just can't keep the numbers in their place To me that is as good as anything (o god i'd better take cover!) Joni ever wrote. And gives good backing to her own claim, now that i think of it, that some of her better work is in the later stages of her career. Not to mention Borderline, Sire of Sorrow, Harlem in Havana, etc. As does the much-maligned CMIARS--poor thing. I love you CMIARS! ray ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:29:13 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: FWIW, Bijou Phillips/Doobies (now NJC, kind of!) Kakki wrote: >Bijou and her sister MacKenzie Phillips were sitting right next to Phyliss >and I during Joni's taping at Warner Brothers. They were very friendly and >helped squeeze some space for me to sit down. They reminded me of happy >little girls watching Joni's performance - they were just awestruck to be >there and were giggling and giddy in their excitement. It was cool to see >their lack of jadedness considering that they have probably been around a >lot of celebrities in their lives. I have a video of interviews/songs etc. of the Mamas and the Papas, where MacKenzie Phillips describes being at an average Saturday night party at her fathers house when she was about 6, and being too shy to dance. Apparently Paul McCartney (the other Beatles were also present, along with 50 other people, mostly from the music business) told her no one was watching, so she started dancing, then noticed everyone WAS watching her. She burst into tears, so Paul picked her up, and sang her to sleep in a corner of the room! She's obviously a pretty down-to-earth person, if she can experience something like that at the age of 6 and (a) not get big-headed about it, and (b) still be so excited about seeing Joni play! It's refreshing to hear that "famous" people can be so unjaded (to use your expression) when the media mostly over-play the less attractive personality traits! Helen ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #209 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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