From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #206 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, May 8 1999 Volume 04 : Number 206 TapeTree #8 is ready to roll. To sign up go to: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Dancin' Clown and the Problem with Hejira [John.Mitchell@ascend.com] Re: Influential Artists NJC ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: NJC --How NATO is perceived by Serb students -- NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: NJC --How NATO is perceived by Serb students -- NJC [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Re: Influential Artists NJC ["Mark or Travis" ] RENT (NJC) [evian ] NJC: AbFab [Kate Tarasenko ] NJC re: NJC-John Mayall and Fleetwood Mac (with Green) [Don Sloan ] Obscure loves throughout the ages (NJC) [evian ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 16:10:46 -0700 From: John.Mitchell@ascend.com Subject: Dancin' Clown and the Problem with Hejira Don Rowe wrote: >Not a bit -- "Lead Balloon" has been more than >sufficiently pooh-poohed! In fact, I can't believe I >left it off to begin with ... ditto "Chelsea Morning" I guess I missed something here, but why would anyone poo-poo Chelsea Morning? The melody is very well constructed, and the poetry is extremely vivid (FWIW, I have an "incense owl" stashed away somewhere). In fact, Chelsea reminds me of what I DON'T like about Hejira. I have played Hejira about 15 times now and it still bores me. But I have finally figured out why: 1. Most of the melodies are poorly constructed and lack the ingenuity of Joni's better work. 2. The instrumentation on all the selections has a dreadful sameness and grows tiresome fast. It is too heavily weighted in one frequency range and lacks richness. 3. The songs are just too damn long! They take way too much time to make their point and drone on and on and on... "Amelia" is like water torture. Maybe someday this album will click, but I doubt it--there is no "there" there. THOSL, which I bought at the same time, has really grown on me, though. johnm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 11:48:23 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Influential Artists NJC >Good points, all. Interesting that you are NP, but >didn't mention Ms. Crow -- who for my dos centavos is >really wearing the R&R tiara these days. I mean, who >else is out there with Bonnie Raitt's smokiness and >John Hiatt's lyrical sensibiilities? You're right, and the funny thing is, she was originally on my list. But to be honest, I've only really heard one or two of her songs (the NP song was from a soundtrack album). She first hit the charts at the same time as a lot of less-credible women artists, and I kind of categorised them all together as one-hit-wonders - I was far too quick to judge, but I tend to compare every solo women artist to Joni, so how can anyone possibly match up! But I have since begun to appreciate her music more, and will probably start picking up a few CD's. Helen - feeling justifiably humbled! NP - The neighbour's children screaming (and I mean SCREAMING) something about "I want my lollies!" - yet another nail in the coffin of my personal procreation! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 20:07:31 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: NJC --How NATO is perceived by Serb students -- NJC al_date@email.com wrote: > > > > > > >Dear friends, > > >We are Students Union of Serbia and we have decided to take this > > >desperate step of writing to people around the world about suffering of > > >our people. Events we are describing You in this letter took place in > > >last 5 days and these events represents the worst kind of atrocities our > > >country suffered since Nazis attacked us in second World War. You can > > >find pictures and films of everything written here on our web-site > > >www.students.org.yu and we are willing to answer to all Your comments > > >and questions to union@students.org.yu. > > No one has answered my question: HOW WOULD YOU LIKE YOUR CITY TO BE BOMBED BACK TO THE STONEAGE FOR SOMETHING THAT BILL CLINTON HAD DONE? Bill Clinton performed mass murder in Bosnia. Bill Clinton performed mass murder in Kosovo. Bill Clinton is so guilty. Kosovo has suffered no atrocities under the Serbs. Bill Clinton is so guilty. Bill Clinton refused to sign the peace accords with the KLA. Shame, Bill, shame. (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 12:13:39 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Dancin' Clown Don wrote (and I agree!): >And hey, just because SIQUOMB doesn't mean those long blonde >locks can't be let down once and a while. Long live >"Twisted", "Blue Motel Room", "Smokin'", "Raised on >Robbery", "Crazy Cries of Love", "Ray's Dad's >Cadillac" and the much-maligned "Dancin' Clown." and then: >Not a bit -- "Lead Balloon" has been more than >sufficiently pooh-poohed! In fact, I can't believe I >left it off to begin with ... ditto "Chelsea Morning" >-- and as long as we're lengthening the list -- I >shouldn't neglect "Barandgrill", "Blond in the >Bleachers" or "Underneath the Streetlight". Why is it that these songs come under so much malignment? Personally I love them all - Lead Balloon nearly won my vote as most favourite from TTT (one song I really don't like is Man From Mars - even less now I know it's about her cat!). I agree with Don. She should be allowed to kick back her heels and have some fun now and then. God if she didn't, she'd probably be committed somewhere for severe, irreversible depression by now! The impression I get from this list (and it's only my personal opinion, so keep cool!) is that for a performer to be taken seriously, they're only allowed to produce "serious" songs! Anything else is dismissed as irrelevant! Helen NP - Screaming children next door (still!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 20:27:15 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: NJC --How NATO is perceived by Serb students -- NJC Winfried and Colin, Do you think the students of Kosovo... I mean the ones who survived the Serbs closing ethnic Albanian schools in Kosovo since 1990... are sitting around the student union making websites? (the Rev) Vince > > > > > al_date@email.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >Dear friends, > > > > >We are Students Union of Serbia and we have decided to take this > > > > >desperate step of writing to people around the world about suffering of > > > > >our people. > > All people down there in the Balkans have one big problem: They keep on > talking for hours about what atrocities the other ethnicities have done > to them, yet they are totally blind about their own share of the mess. > What is happening is definitely tragic for the Serbs, but before I take > one of their statements seriously, I want to see that very person > admitting to the horrendous crimes which Serbs have been committing > within the last 7 years for the Serbs and in the name of the Serbic > nation. > > Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 20:40:54 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Influential Artists NJC Mentioning Bonnie Bramlett brings back memories... I saw Delany and Bonnie when they opened (with Taste) for the one and only Blind Faith tour... Bonnie wowwed the crowd... although my best memories of that night are Clapton and Ginger Baker. But Bonnie Bramlett does get an honorable mention and thanks for raising her name! (the Rev) Vince Kakki wrote: > Mark wrote: > > >And Janis, Tina & Grace were all > >definitely influenced by these women. But I still maintain that J, T > >& G they were the first women vocalists to sing r & r. > > Can't think of any others, except maybe an honorable mention for Bonnie > Bramlett. > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:57:10 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Re: Influential Artists NJC > > I'd also credit Madonna for the lyrical frankness of artists > like Liz Phair, who has specifically mentioned Madonna as a big > influence on her. > I don't know about that, Michael. Madonna wasn't the first to sing frank lyrics. Remember Marianne Faithful's 'Why'd Ya Do It?' Grace could also be pretty frank sometimes. And what about Patti Smith? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:11:00 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Dancin' Clown and the Problem with Hejira In fact, > Chelsea reminds me of what I DON'T like about Hejira. > > I have played Hejira about 15 times now and it still bores me. But I have > finally figured out why: > > 1. Most of the melodies are poorly constructed and lack the ingenuity of > Joni's better work. > 2. The instrumentation on all the selections has a dreadful sameness and > grows tiresome fast. It is too heavily weighted in one frequency range and > lacks richness. > 3. The songs are just too damn long! They take way too much time to make > their point and drone on and on and on... "Amelia" is like water torture. > > Maybe someday this album will click, but I doubt it--there is no "there" > there. THOSL, which I bought at the same time, has really grown on me, > though. > > johnm > Please let it be known that I did not put John up to this. I did not pay him or bribe him in anyway. And I *will* rise to 'Hejira's' defense. Listen to the lyrics very carefully, John. Yes there are a lot of them but they have some wonderful imagery and poetry in them. And the music isn't as repetitive & boring as you might initially think. It is very subtle and there's not a lot of variety. But what is there is very nice indeed. This record requires very careful listening to catch all it's nuances. I do agree that musically the record does not explore a very broad range. I still maintain that Joni has done things that are much more interesting. But I would never dismiss it as having nothing 'there'. I do think if you're interested in getting a good picture of the inner workings of Joni's heart & mind, you will find it distilled into the songs of 'Hejira'. She has matured since then but a lot of who she is and always will be is in that record, imo. Mark the heretic > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:26:39 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Dancin' Clown Helen said: << She should be allowed to kick back her heels and have some fun now and then. God if she didn't, she'd probably be committed somewhere for severe, irreversible depression by now! The impression I get from this list (and it's only my personal opinion, so keep cool!) is that for a performer to be taken seriously, they're only allowed to produce "serious" songs! Anything else is dismissed as irrelevant! >> No not at all, Helen! I LOVE it when Joni's having fun ala the end of BYT with her little giggle, "You're So Square", "Raised on Robbery", "Why Do Fools Fall In Love", "Rays Dad's Cadillac", "Talk To Me", even "Coyote" are all playful and great! And I don't think anybody here wants a totally serious pensive Joni ALL the time, we'd ALL be committed. But she does set a very high standard for herself, and when a song like DC goes absolutely nowhere lyrically, musically, instrumentally, vocally, it stands out like a cardinal in a coal pile! (Not a St. Louis Cardinal, Don...) ;~) Bob NP: Benny Carter "Sunday Afternoon" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:53:35 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: The Paradox NJC OFF TOPIC!!!! quite good - --part1_e77451fd.2465012f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << The Paradox > > The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller > buildings, but > shorter tempers; wider freeways, but narrower viewpoints; we > spend > more, but have less; we buy more, but enjoy it less. > > We have bigger houses and smaller families; more conveniences, > but > less time; we have more degrees, but less sense; more knowledge, > but > less judgement; more experts, but more problems; more medicine, > but > less wellness. > > We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We > talk > too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. > > We've learned how to make a living, but not a life; we've added > years to life, not life to years. > > We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble > crossing the street to meet the new neighbor. > > We've conquered outer space, but not inner space; we've cleaned > up > the air, but polluted the soul; we've split the atom, but not > our > prejudice. > > We have higher incomes, but lower morals; we've become long on > quantity, but short on quality. > > These are the times of tall men, and short character; steep > profits, > and shallow relationships. > > These are the times of world peace, but domestic warfare; more > leisure, but less fun; more kinds of food, but less nutrition. > > These are the days of two incomes, but more divorce; of fancier > houses, but broken homes. > > It is a time when there is much in the show window and nothing > in > the stockroom; a time when technology can bring this letter to > you, and > a time when you can choose either to make a difference, or just > hit > delete..... > > Author Unknown > >> - --part1_e77451fd.2465012f_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-ya04.mx.aol.com (rly-ya04.mail.aol.com [172.18.144.196]) by air-ya03.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Fri, 07 May 1999 22:26:13 -0400 Received: from voicenet.com (mail13.voicenet.com [207.103.0.39]) by rly-ya04.mx.aol.com (vx) with SMTP; Fri, 07 May 1999 22:26:08 -0400 Received: (qmail 8041 invoked from network); 8 May 1999 02:26:06 -0000 Received: from mail12.voicenet.com (HELO voicenet.com) (207.103.0.6) by mail13.voicenet.com with SMTP; 8 May 1999 02:26:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 12700 invoked from network); 8 May 1999 02:26:03 -0000 Received: from dialup855-pri.voicenet.com (HELO judytroj) (207.103.117.118) by mail12.voicenet.com with SMTP; 8 May 1999 02:26:03 -0000 From: "Judy Trojnar" To: "'Anita'" , "'Ben'" , "'Bill'" , "'Debi'" , "'Jim'" , "'Joe'" , "'Jon'" , "'Kate'" , "'Kathy'" , "'Linda'" , "'Marie'" , "'Muffy'" , "'Peggy'" , "'Regina'" , "'Ric'" , "'Ronnie'" , "'Sally'" , "'Veronica'" Subject: FW: The Paradox Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:11:34 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01be98f9$65c76e80$0a1ca1ce@judytroj> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 - - > > The Paradox > > The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller > buildings, but > shorter tempers; wider freeways, but narrower viewpoints; we > spend > more, but have less; we buy more, but enjoy it less. > > We have bigger houses and smaller families; more conveniences, > but > less time; we have more degrees, but less sense; more knowledge, > but > less judgement; more experts, but more problems; more medicine, > but > less wellness. > > We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We > talk > too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. > > We've learned how to make a living, but not a life; we've added > years to life, not life to years. > > We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble > crossing the street to meet the new neighbor. > > We've conquered outer space, but not inner space; we've cleaned > up > the air, but polluted the soul; we've split the atom, but not > our > prejudice. > > We have higher incomes, but lower morals; we've become long on > quantity, but short on quality. > > These are the times of tall men, and short character; steep > profits, > and shallow relationships. > > These are the times of world peace, but domestic warfare; more > leisure, but less fun; more kinds of food, but less nutrition. > > These are the days of two incomes, but more divorce; of fancier > houses, but broken homes. > > It is a time when there is much in the show window and nothing > in > the stockroom; a time when technology can bring this letter to > you, and > a time when you can choose either to make a difference, or just > hit > delete..... > > Author Unknown > - --part1_e77451fd.2465012f_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:00:20 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Dancin' Clown In a message dated 5/7/1999 10:31:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RMuRocks@aol.com writes: << But she does set a very high standard for herself, and when a song like DC goes absolutely nowhere lyrically, musically, instrumentally, vocally, it stands out like a cardinal in a coal pile! (Not a St. Louis Cardinal, Don...) ;~) >> I didn't care for that song too much until I saw the video. she looks gorgeous in it. She is in her kitchen dancing around with her cat ( I love cats) and she is having FUN! I also love Man form Mars. When I found out is was about her cat, I loved it even more. I lost a cat so I feel a bond towards that song. There are not many songs of hers I don't like. She makes good choices of what to put on an album. I wonder what some of her other songs are like. Geez, I wish she would just come out with a demo CD or tracks of the songs in different versions..that would be cool. I am greatful for the tape trees. They give me a whole new bunch of songs to listen to because of the different ways that she sings them...OH YEAH!!!! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:05:12 -0400 (EDT) From: al_date@email.com Subject: NJC--NATO Imperialism--NJC Colin says: > "It is not one person but many who have > murdered the Albanians. This is what > happens when people do nothing and allow > anything to happen. It is foolish to > believe that just one man is responsible > for the atrocities." Then the joke is on NATO, because NATO's official position is that if Milosevich, as Commander of the Yugoslav Army, yields to NATO demands, that the atrocities will stop. Are you saying that NATO is totally out to lunch, and that Milosevich has no control over his own troops? I don't know about the rest of the world, but in this part of the world I have found that people generally do what their bosses tell them to do. And that is why Milosevich and his counterpart in the KLA can be held personally responsible for ethnic cleansing, and why Bill Clinton (and other commanders in NATO) can be held personally responsible for violating international law. THEY ISSUE THE COMMANDS THAT RESULT IN DEATH AND DESTRUCTION OF INNOCENTS. Winfried says > "The truth is: the MAJORITY of Serbs have > only gradually different viewpoints on > Kosovo than their govt. They agree with > the suppression of Albanians living > there..." Well, imagine that! Hatred of other ethnic groups! Isn't that totally unique! Can you imagine that they actually have that in the Balkans? [sarcasm off] Until quite recently, the KLA was identified by NATO as a Maoist terrorist organization. Now that this assessment conflicts with Clinton's anti-Serb spin, the KLA is identified as "Freedom Fighters." My point from the beginning is that there are bad boys on both sides, and that the USA should not pick sides in a civil war, or in ANY war, without the deliberation and approval of Congress. It is also true that NATO has violated its own charter as a defensive organization, and violated a laundry list of international laws, such as the Geneva Convention against bombing media and hospitals. These laws were very hard to achieve, at the expense of millions of lives in two world wars--and now they are ignored. If genocide is going on somewhere in the world, and if are serious about abating it, this is a matter for the United Nations to deal with. You will note that Russia has no problem with an international force in Albania, but that NATO insists that NATO be the force. All the more evidence that NATO needs a base in Albania or Kosovo that they cannot get from the Greeks, that they "need" as a hedge since its last bastion, Turkey, might go Islamic fundamentalist. No war has ever been fought solely for humanitarian reasons. In this case, the ulterior motive is probably NATO imperialism. And that is just one reason why many people in the world see NATO as acting like Nazis. By hastening the exodus of Kosovars, NATO has actually made the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo easier to achieve. Whether this was intentional or unwitting only time will tell. - --Al Date - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 20:38:41 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Influential Artists NJC Vince wrote: > Mentioning Bonnie Bramlett brings back memories... I saw Delany and Bonnie > when they opened (with Taste) for the one and only Blind Faith tour... > Bonnie wowwed the crowd... although my best memories of that night are > Clapton and Ginger Baker. Oh boy oh wow oh my God.....you lucky guy. You have no idea how much I adored Blind Faith. The best birthday present of my life was my then 16 year old boyfriend playing me a 20 minute Ginger Baker drum solo at sunrise at his parents house (they were away in Mexico and he had opened up the place for a early morning surprise party for me). Kakki, on her way out to dinner at new Joni hang-out Les Deux Cafes - if I can find it - full report later ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 23:41:11 -0600 From: evian Subject: RENT (NJC) > I'd be interested to see if there are any Joni/RENT folks out there. > ha ha. > Since I live in the boonies in Canada, I haven't seen RENT, but I shelled out the 40 bucks for the soundtrack after I saw Adam whats-his-name on Rosie O'donnell singing "Glory". I love that soundtrack... one of my fave albums... Evian p.s. Mark, we're sorry to hear that Maureen dumped you, I say c'est la vie..... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 23:47:41 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: NJC: AbFab Comedy Central is running 16 back-to-back episodes of "AbFab" on Sunday afternoon in honor of Mother's Day. "As your mother, I can't be held responsible for your well-being!" -- Edina (Jennifer Saunders) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 22:40:28 -0700 From: Don Sloan Subject: NJC re: NJC-John Mayall and Fleetwood Mac (with Green) Wow!!! What a great group of gigs!! I think to see Mayall and the ORIGINAL Fleetwood Mac blues band would rival (for me) seeing Joni live. And ChickenShack/Christine Perfect (she was!), too. So many fabulous English bands back then. Darice, do you remember who was Mayall's lead guitar man then? Mick Taylor? Don Darice wrote: > In 1969, I saw both Mayall and MAc at the Bath (England) Blues Festival. > John M has always been one of my favorite English blues artists; this show > he did California for one of the first times. The MAc did a great show, but > one of my best memories was a group called Chicken shack with a lead singer > named Christine Perfect (soon to be McVie). > That was a wonderful rock summer in England; Bath, then the Hyde Park Stones > free concert, and the Plumpton (going on while Woodstock was happening), Groupswould play there, (like > the Who) and then fly over to Woodstock. > Darice > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 17:52:29 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Dancin' Clown Bob wrote: >I LOVE it when Joni's having fun and: >and when a song like DC goes absolutely nowhere >lyrically, musically, instrumentally, vocally, it stands out like a cardinal >in a coal pile! (Not a St. Louis Cardinal, Don...) ;~) You've just said that Dancing Clown has no lyrical, musical, instrumental or vocal validity - something I find astounding, especially from someone who's also just said he LOVES it when Joni's having fun! There's seems to me, to be a huge contradiction in what you've just said. Again (and I stress again, this is only my opinion!) but that's why I love songs like this - Joni's having "fun" with a song. A song doesn't have to be serious to have validity! Sorry to harp on about this, but I just fail to see any logic in your reasoning! Enlighten me! Gotta go, heading out for dinner. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 23:54:46 -0600 From: evian Subject: Obscure loves throughout the ages (NJC) > so simmer down all you > Steve Perry-ites ... yeah, I know you're out there) > LOLOL!!!! Can that man be any more annoying??? However, I admit.. I have Escape, Frontiers, and Raised on Radio on cassette... as well as his first solo album... and, um... I really, really like "Oh Sherry" and "Foolish Heart".... I can't believe I am admitting this... but if I hear "Lovin', Touchin' Squeezin" one more time in my life... I am gonna snap! I also had one of those Journey t-shirts with the big ugly whatever-the-hell it was on the front from the cover of Frontiers when I was in grade 8. I shudder now when I see pics of myself with that ugly shirt on, thinking I was cooler than cool.... oh well, it could have been worse.. I had a Nena shirt too that I only wore on special occasions, along with this mesh tank top thing that I wore over it.... I always defend 80's music, but the fashion does not age well! Evian np: "A Girl in Trouble (is a Temporary Thing)" -- Romeo Void (whatever happened to them, anyway?) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #206 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! 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