From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #189 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, April 28 1999 Volume 04 : Number 189 TapeTree #8 is ready to roll. To sign up go to: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- BUSTED! (JC) [evian ] joni/mama said it all... (jc) [evian ] Re: Joni's aura ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Georgia O'Keefe (NJC) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Hejira and FTR [Howard Wright ] Colorado (NJC) - LONG, LONG POST! ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Which of us is Joni?? ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: BUSTED! (JC)NJC [catman ] Re: NJC GUNS [catman ] Re: Which of us is Joni?? [catman ] recording info for Tape Trees [Kleronomos@aol.com] Re: Re[2]: colorado, and kids NJC [MGVal@aol.com] Re: more Joni guitar questions ["P. Henry" ] Re: Which of us is Joni?? [Don Rowe ] Re: BUSTED! (JC) [Ashara@aol.com] Manson-Rogers duet...? [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re[2]: Colorado (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re[4]: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: BUSTED! (JC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Joni's aura (now NJC) [Don Rowe ] Re: Which of us is Joni?? ["Winfried Hühn" ] RE: Which of us is Joni?? [Brett Code ] RE: Re: 2nd Amendment NJC [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Re: BUSTED! (JC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] O'Keefe in SF. (VLJC) [Russell Bowden ] Guns & people (NJC) [Mary Pitassi ] ola [Jerry Notaro ] Minutae of the Dogs and Tigers ... [Don Rowe ] Re: Joni's aura (now NJC) ["Ken (Slarty)" ] [Fwd: Columbine] [Suzanne Simpson ] Re: Which of us is Joni?? [evian ] RE: NJC GUNS [luvart@snet.net] Re: BUSTED! (JC)NJC [evian ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:43:29 -0600 From: evian Subject: BUSTED! (JC) Ok, you caught me... I thought Kilauren and I were being smart by posting rambling bits of nothing together under one name. What we did is get Mom to hook up to a Saskatchewan ISP, and we forwarded our posts to her to send... it would have worked, but as that "Kakki" person said, the evian was a dead giveaway.. I warned Kilauren, but she was adamant on the name to use... you know kids..... So, now that we are busted, let me just fill you all in on some misconceptions on the list. The "dishwasher and a coffee purculator" really was what happened... Chuck bought his wife all that, while when I was with him, all I got was a dumpy room with a hotplate....the cheap bastard! As for the endless talk about Hejira... I confess... it WAS indeed supposed to look like a penis! By that point, I was mad at the record industry, and the sexist record covers with half-naked women, so my good ole friend, Bonnie Raitt, after a night of partying, said "Joan honey, I wish we could flash them a big ole... (fill in your fave word for it) to show those sexist pigs a thing or two", so that is what I did! Pretty ingenious of me, no? As for the debate over FTR and Hejira.... it don't matter to me which you like better as long as you buy them! However, I threw in some songs from Hejira to appease you all on the recent tours. I have enjoyed the debate about C&S. However, the man in the title track wasn't a drifter, he was Warren Beatty... I thought "ain't no way Carly was gonna write about him in a song too... she keeps stealing my men and writing about it, so let's make Warren into a drifter, and let the chips fall where they may! However, Carly and I are friends now... and I resent people saying I paid Chrisse to choke her! Also, I will let you into a little known secret... some of these other people on the list are not who they say they are. For instance, Kakki... haven't you figured it out yet? Lives in L.A., likes Shawn Colvin, planted that ingenious thread about my work being over-taken by Klein... ok kids, let's dummy up.. Kakki IS Klein! Klein honey, you've done good work here supporting me.... however, the LEAST you could do is give these nice folks a Stormy Weather cd... you still have SOME pull with the execs, don't you, honey? By the way, Mom sends her love, and please let her know it is over.... she still wants us together.. you know Myrt..and why did you expose me? I told you I would give back your Grandmother's china! As well, notice how nice Ashara is? This is because she is none other than... Judy Collins! Thanks, Ashara/Judy, for keeping those royalties rolling in! Finally, you ever notice the extensive music collection that Bob Mueller has? How does he afford it, you may ask? Easy... he is my lawyer... please send any requests/lawsuits through him. Well, I must be off... we are all going out for a bite to eat... I don't eat dinner until 2 am... restaurants are more lax about smoking then... gotta love the city of the fallen angels! Joni SIQUOMB, aren't I? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:47:16 -0600 From: evian Subject: joni/mama said it all... (jc) > O.K. my money is on Evian. Perfect cover claiming to be from Joni's > hometoon, always bright, delightful and amusing like Joni, always posts late > like the night owl Joni and "his" handle "Evian" - well remember that > Kilauren was once a model on the Evian bottle label. Er, uh, oh.. maybe > Evian is Kilauren!! ;-D > > Kakki > Busted! *Sigh*.... I thought we had it hidden so well. I even have refrained from mentioning Little Green and Chinese Cafe so as not to let my secret out. Instead, I have pretended to be some DED lovin', C&S cartin', blabbermouth in hopes of fooling you all! I just KNEW the Saskatchewan thing was too close for comfort, but alas, I got granny Myrtle to make my posts for me! Ooops, hang on... MARLON, GET DOWN OFF OF THERE... I SAID GET DOWN OFF OF THERE! YOU AIN'T GONNA GO SEE BIG MAMA IF YOU DON'T SETTLE DOWN! Sorry about that! You know kids.... Anyway, I must run. Big Mama and I gave it a good shot, but you busted us! Love, Kilauren ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:59:17 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Joni's aura Philip wrote: >Alanis Morrisette looks a >mess but sells millions. I read somewhere that The Cranberries >have sold 28 million records. To me it's scary to think that 28 >million homes around the world contain records by a group >who can't sing, can't play or write, who look crap and have no >personality. Maybe it's better just to accept it as one of life's >mysteries. In Alanis' defense, she also has some great lyrics (IMO), but I'm glad someone else dislikes the Cranberries as much as I do. They were REALLY big over her a couple of years ago - couldn't go to a party without someone playing something. I shudder, remembering! Helen - settling in for a LONG night of posting (so much to say, so little time!) NP - HOSL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:16:17 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Georgia O'Keefe (NJC) >And Jim Lamadama asked: > >>I'm wondering how the NJC-free list is working out.> Been there, done that - it was like being in the electronic wilderness! Obviously the Colorado incident has made a difference, but boy, was it quiet! But I'm back, God help me! 120 posts between midnight last night and 8am this morning! Helen NP - Don't Interrupt the Sorrow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:24:40 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Hejira and FTR Dan introduces himself: <> and Bob replies: That's just because you haven't heard Hejira yet! Paul replies to Bob: >I wonder though whether people can move from thinking >FTR is album of the century to preferring Hejira... They're very >different animals... Does anyone rate FTR and H as equally brilliant - >or does someone who likes one like the other a lot less? > >Is it possible to be a Hejira-bunny AND a Roses-queen?! Yes! If I absolutely *had* to choose one fave Joni album, it would probably be Hejira. But I rate HOSL and FTR as two stunning albums that are very close behind. Hejira and HOSL were my first non-Blue Joni albums I had. It took time for me to get used to Hejira (HOSL grabbed me first), but slowly all the nuances of H got me more and more. It may be that because I heard it before FTR that it is (slightly) higher on my list. From: Randy Remote >How about this for an oversimplification? FTR is more the >emotional statement, Hejira the more cerebral. I'll buy that! Another over-simplification: Hejira is a "guitar songs" album (actually true) FTR is a "piano songs" album (mostly). That could be another reason why some people go for one more than another. Like Randy, I love 'em both. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:40:21 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Colorado (NJC) - LONG, LONG POST! I've held off responding on this thread, partly because I was on the Only-Joni list, and didn't see it, and partly because I've got so much I want to say! Sorry in advance for the length of this post, and if I'm just repeating other's opinions, but I really feel moved to talk! There has been a great deal of debate on this list (and others) about changing gun laws etc. but in my opinion, that won't necessarily make the problem go away. In New Zealand we have very strict gun laws. It is illegal to own a hand gun of any kind, and although I am certainly no expert on the subject, I am pretty sure that there are restrictions on semi-automatic weapons also. I was discussing this with a friend a few days ago, and she seemed to think you need not only a license to buy a rifle/shotgun, but also have to pass some kind of psychological test before purchasing the weapon - (disclaimer - she may be completely wrong here!). But despite this, we had a guy go "crazy" in a small town called Aramoana a few years ago, who killed about 15 men, women and children before police shot and killed him. It was believed that if they hadn't shot him, he would have just kept going until he'd used all his ammunition - and this in a country with very strict gun laws! We also have one of the highest (if not THE highest) teen-suicide rates in the world - there are many ways to end one's life (and other's lives), and it doesn't have to be with a gun. But the above example is not the norm - it's an isolated case. In fact I can only (personally) think of 3 specific multiple shootings that have occurred in the last 5 years, and two of those were murder-suicides, involving immediate families. As a contrast to the US, we had a case a year or so ago where a 15-year-old shot his father in (what he said) was self-defense. This was front-page news for about a week in all the country's major newspapers, but I would hazard a guess that one boy shooting his father would be a minor or even non-issue (in terms of "news-worthiness"), had it happened in certain parts of the US (I know I'm generalising - apologies if I offend)! I guess another debate on the suicide/gun issue is that if these two Colorado boys had not had guns, how many of their schoolmates would be alive today? They obviously intended to commit suicide, but had they not had guns, would they have found it so easy to seek the "revenge" that they said they sought? I guess removing the guns from the equation may certainly save some lives, but then there's also the argument of the right to bear arms. I know, it's a difficult question, and one that is not easily answered. I certainly don't have it! Which leads on to the argument about hand-guns. How many shootings in the US are the result of a hand-gun, as opposed to a rifle or shotgun? It's a little hard to conceal a 12-gauge on or about your person, unlike a snub-nosed revolver! Others on this list have argued the parenting issue far more eloquently than I could, and since I don't have children (and never will) I don't feel as qualified to comment ....BUT.... I heard on our news that three of the four parents are professionals and loving, kind people and they have no idea what went wrong. My first instinct is to say, "Oh, well, they (the boys) must have just been 'bad'" but then I wondered, does having professional, intelligent parents mean the children will turn out OK? Not if the parents are working 10-12 hours a day, leaving the kids to fend for themselves much of the time (IMO). The generation of "latch-key" kids may come from loving, responsible parents, but at the end of the day, I still think the best gift you can give your kids is time - and that seems to be in very short supply in too many families. Personally, I'd hate to go back to the 50's, where fathers went out and worked, and mothers stayed home with the kids, but in the cold light of day, how often did things like this happen back then? But where do you draw the line, and say, "Yes, the parenting is done." These boys, at 18, were old enough to join the army, and fight (and kill!) for their country, and no one would have thought their parents had done a terrible job raising them. Do you blame the parents of a 45-year-old serial killer, and make them "pay" for his crimes, because he lived with them for a third of his life? Sure, the first years are the formative years, and our upbringing does play a part in how we conduct ourselves as adults, but there comes a point when the individual must take responsibility for their own actions. I'm getting really tired of something like this happening, and everyone rushing to lay blame everywhere but on the heads of those directly responsible. Is it because they took their own lives, and the closest point of blame becomes the parents? At their age, I had already left home a year previously, and lived in a different city. Whatever I did, I took the consequences! Nearly finished - thanks (and kudos!) to those who have read this far! My other theory is to consider the human species from a strictly biological point of view, as a member of the animal kingdom. Humans are aggressive, territorial and have battled with each other since we crawled out of the primordial ooze (slight exaggeration)! But I'm afraid, violence is just human nature - even now, when we are supposed to be so enlightened, things like Kosovo can still take place. How else do you explain the wars down through the ages, the "ethnic cleansing" happening now, and in WWII. Or on an even simpler level, why is our planet divided into countries, countries divided into states, cities into suburbs, our houses and sections fenced off?! I guess what I'm saying is that you can preach love and respect, and the value of human life, until you're blue in the face, but until the basic nature of the human species evolves into a non-violent, non-territorial form, we're helpless! A pretty morbid and pessimistic analysis, but I've done a lot of thinking about this, not just over the last couple of days, but over the last 10-15 years. I'd love to think we can get to a point where we all respect each other and live in peace, and where guns are not even necessary, let alone available, but I think it's a pipe-dream - and it certainly won't happen in our lifetimes, if at all. Helen NP - Down To You would be appropriate, but it's actually The Boho Dance (HOSL playing over and over and over! God, I love Joni!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:57:24 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Which of us is Joni?? >And I was wondering (you can see >where this is going can't you) whether any of us has ever suspected any of >us of ACTUALLY BEING JONI in disguise... I'm on the Lee-Shore (CSN discussion list), and David Crosby occasionally responds to a thread. The most recent one was on the rumoured exorbitant price of tickets for their up-coming concert tour. His response: "The Golden Circle tickets will go for $8,000.43 a piece and include getting laid in a Lear jet......just kidding ..........whatever it is ....it won't be $700.........I am making note of the suggestions for songs and they will be brought up before our tribunal......hmm ......quatribunal.....um .....er......bunch.....and then duly ignored as usual by everyone but me........ahhh the sheer brilliance of me .........more later" I know he has an ego (he's a Leo, like me, of COURSE he has!). Even by his own admission in his song Anything At All: "Is there anything you want to know, just ask me. I'm the world's most opinionated man"! But I would say (IMHO) that it's common to most "enduring" performers, or they would never have survived the bad (or more unproductive) years/times. You have to have a certain amount of ego - call it self-confidence if you like. If Joni were on the list, I think it would become fairly obvious, fairly quickly. She would not have just sat back and listened to everyone saying how terrible she was on PWWAM, for a start! Of course, if you are here, I apologise profusely for suggesting that you have an ego problem! Because YAQUOMB! Helen NP - Shades of Scarlett Conquering (2 hours of HOSL - ahh, bliss!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:32:18 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: BUSTED! (JC)NJC > I have enjoyed the debate about C&S. However, the man in the title > track wasn't a drifter, he was Warren Beatty... I thought "ain't no way > Carly was gonna write about him in a song too... she keeps stealing my > men and writing about it, so let's make Warren into a drifter, and let > the chips fall where they may! However, Carly and I are friends now... > and I resent people saying I paid Chrisse to choke her! I did NOT steal any of your men. I don't NEED your men, I can have my pick. This was all so long ago. When are going to let it drop? Anyway, you could have kept James. i didn't. Boy what a mess that was.As for that Chrissie woman-I know you didn't put her up to it, dear. She doesn't need anyone to show her how to behave badly. Oh, and give over with this nonsense about dear Warren. The man in the song lives in my imagination. Wonder if my new album gets the same reception as yours. love, comma, Carly > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:32:52 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC GUNS The point is guns are far to easy to use. I believe there have been times in my life when had I had access to a gun I would have used it. Yes, knives, hammers, bricks, bats, etc all can kill but they are not so easy to use on the spurr. dsk wrote: > Gene Mock wrote: > > > > I'm confused, do you guys fear guns more than you fear the person whose > > finger is on the trigger of the gun? > > Is this an attempt at a "guns don't kill, people do" statement? > That's one of those statements that sounds good, but doesn't really mean > anything. Guns are created to kill; they're not pieces of sculpture. > > The two students in Colorado fired about 900 rounds! So whether I'd > fear the gun or the person in that situation doesn't really matter, does > it? > > DS - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:33:14 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Which of us is Joni?? > Or is Colin REALLY a cat-lover from near Cambridge - or is he IN > TRUTH a glamorous folk-jazz singer-songwriter from LA with beautiful long > blonde hair (all the cat refs on TTT suddenly make sense - don't they??)!? sssshhhhh! Don't let the cat out of the bag! Still now you know what Trouble Child was all about. > > > What do other people think?? > > PX - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:31:46 EDT From: Kleronomos@aol.com Subject: recording info for Tape Trees I just looked into the Tape Trees thing for the first time. I don't have any of Joni's unpublished recordings, and would love some. I'd like to offer some advice to anyone who is interested on how to make quality duplications of tapes. I'd like whoever runs the Tape Tree projects to have this for their use, and hope it gets to them this way. Let me know if I should send it directly to someone. Thanks! Regarding tape quality: Tape trees I just found out about tape trees, and wanted to offer some information which might be helpful, especially to administrators, about keeping tape quality as high as possible. Most of this is basic duplicating information, and might be included in text form to "Branch Leaders" who will be duplicating tapes. You are welcome to edit this as you see fit and use it any way you choose. First a note regarding an ethical question not covered in the JMDL tape tree web pages: Although free tape trading does dilute the profit power for profiteers of unavailable tapes, it still encourages clandestine recordings at new concerts, which may be illegal or unethical, and by encouraging bootlegging, may hurt the artists. This whole process skirts the area between darkness and light, with, I'm sure, departures into both realms. What a treasure to have a rare performance unavailable at the local record store. But if you love an artist, it might be more loving to decline an offer that doesn't affect them financially! A question for each of us to decide. Generation Loss Every time a tape is copied from a tape, hiss is added. Therefore, the closer the source tape (the one you're duplicating) is to the master tape (the one recorded on-site, or mixed down to stereo from a multitrack master), the higher the fidelity. I would suspect that many tape trees are a dozen or more generations from the master, and the quality has to suffer terribly, especially since some of the copies were probably made on poor equipment, or with levels set too low, or with dirty heads (more on that below). But hiss is only the beginning. Each recorder will add its own "wow" and "flutter" to the duped tape (imperfect tape speeds). It might be nice to develop a "lineage" for each copy. Perhaps it could be noted on each tape, with the Dolby Yes/No info, something like "lineage4", indicating that this particular copy is four generations from the "master" tape, or the best-quality tape known to exist. A lower lineage number would not guarantee that it is better in quality that a higher lineage number, if the latter had been recorded each time with better duplicating practices, it might be considerably better. Furthermore, it would do administrators well to locate the best possible source to start a tape tree. Knowing who owns the oldest generation tapes can do a lot to keep quality up. JMDL traders, with their leaf/branch setup, might do well to consider the added blessing of having a higher-generation copy if they volunteer to be a branch leader! Quality Tape Duplication Basics Start with the highest-quality sub-master tape (the "source" tape). Copy to virgin (new) high-quality blank tape (Maxell is my choice). Used tapes may not be completely erased when you're recording over them, and old tape may have lost a significant amount of the particles that get magnetized in the recording process. Clean your heads. If done properly, you cannot clean your heads too often. You can use alcohol and a Qtip, or (even better) special solutions designed specifically for tape head cleaning, and lint-free swabs. These are available at higher-end electronics suppliers. A separate rubber cleaner is also available for transport rollers. If a deck has a lot of "miles" on it, demagnetize the heads. You can buy a demagnetizer for about $15, or have it done (sometimes for free) at a pro-audio shop, a music store, or a friend's house. Better recorders allow one to set the recording level. This may be done with an "input" knob, in conjunction with the VU meters, which generally should be run so that they barely touch the red zone at the peaks of the music. Recording with too low of a signal (well below the red) will adversely affect the signal-to-noise ratio. Recording with too high of a signal ("pegging" the red, or deep into the red) will add distortion of the signal. With some source tapes, you may have to "ride the fader," that is, move it up or down as the recording plays, or at least check the levels from song to song. A professionally mastered collection of songs is characterized by even levels from song to song, but a bootleg may not be mastered properly. Source and Duplicating Formats Use the best equipment that you can. If you have a HiFi VHS recorder, you may have a terrific recorder. That's right, a video recorder with High Fidelity capabilities is a great audio recorder. Some project studios mix their multitrack DATs or other digital recordings to a HiFi VHS when they mix down to stereo from multiple tracks. Then they use the VHS to duplicate tapes to cassette. The higher quality results from the wider tape width (half-inch vs. eighth inch for cassette). There are more particles to magnetize on the tape. Similarly, a quality quarter-inch reel-to-reel will have much better fidelity than a comparable quality cassette recording. The VHS recording has RCA ins and out in the back, and is hooked up to the duplicating deck just the same as a source deck. Unfortunately, when recording to VHS, it's necessary to run it through something with VU meters, so you can set the levels, as we discussed. I haven't seen a VHS unit yet with its own VU meters. This is probably more than you want to know. Just FYI. The point is, that different formats DAT copies are identical to the source DAT. Since it's digital, no tape hiss is added at all. A DAT source, recorded to tape, makes the tape a lineage2, even if the DAT is a lineage44 (there is no need to keep lineage records for DATs). MP3 is nearly CD quality, and is the future of bootlegging / unavailable recording. You can buy an MP3 coder to translate your analog recordings to digital, using your computer. You hook your tape player, DAT, or mixer to your sound card on the computer, generally using an eighth-inch stereo miniplug (into the sound card) to twin RCA plugs cable (which plug into the tape player's outs). Radio shack carries the cables, as do pro-audio shops, like you'll find in larger musical instrument stores. MP3 players are available free at many sites on the net. A little about me: I'm NOT a recording expert. I play guitar and have a small home recording studio with a 22 channel mixer and an 8 track hard disk recorder and various signal processors, etc, and a couple of quality mics. I'm a Joni Mitchell fan, back to the 60s, but I'm not even an expert at that, since my familiarity with Joni's music gets a little thin, once you get newer than Court and Spark. But I'm becoming a better recordist, a better guitar player, and a better-informed fan as time rolls on. There is a wonderful internet message board for recording questions, and the people there are far more knowledgeable recording engineers than I am. The address is: http://recording.hostway.com/wwwboard/index.html As I write this, the site is down, and I'm getting a Missing File 404 when I try it, but it's been reliable for me in the past. I've had a lot of questions answered there. They are happy to field the most basic questions. You can email me, though, if you think I may be able to help you further. Dan Haas Kleronomos@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:18:20 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: colorado, and kids NJC In a message dated 99-04-27 09:12:23 EDT, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: >. My parents did their >job. If you choose not to give a boy a toy gun, he'll use a stick, a tennis >racket, etc. This is so true. My first two children are girls, so by the time the boy came along, I had a small fortune invested in "My LIttle Ponies," dolls and E-Z Bake oven gear. The boy would just as soon play w/ the ponies as ponies or use it as a gun to shoot the deadly, wicked E-Z Bake pie pans. At 6, he still likes to fashion sticks and Legos into guns, but I've never met a kinder,more gentle boy. He is a "role model" to my neighbor's 4 year old son and watching him help the little boy play soccer or comfort him or pass on words of wisdom, (advice of the week from L to Scottie: "if your mom gives your underwear that are fresh from the dryer, watch out for your balls!"). I try not to curb his "wild" side and certainly praise his gentleness and compassion. Our daily ritual includes the bedtime talk of how our days went, how to express anger, what it means to be a good person. For the girls and the boy. Leslie Mixon wrote: "can we talk?" and I think that this is a key that might be missing from kids that go astray, (for lack of a better word). They need to talk and they need to be listened to and they need that conversation to be a real and honest two-way street. MG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 06:50:37 -0700 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: more Joni guitar questions hi clark, sorry this is so Long out of sync but, as I said, my email has really been giving me some problems and I'm going to be catching up for a while... heck, I almost missed out on my JTOJM cd! yup, that's right! I'm a big wiener!!! *L* anyway, you wrote: >And maybe Pat can tell us, when Chuck Mitchell played his set, did ladies in gingham blush while he sang them of wars and wine? And was Joni wearing leather and lace?> ya know, it's a funny thing, but even if Joni had never written that song, Chuck would probably be most remembered by me singing of wars ("...fer my darlin' dear, ye looked so queer, Johnny I hardly knew ya") and most especially of wine, (he was weel known for a rather comical and bawdy ballad of drunken seduction called "Have Some Madeira, My Dear" (which, along with a lot of other rather ribald songs he performed in his sets) pretty much *kept* the blush on the cheeks of the ladies in the audience and was almost always wearing drip-dry, paisley shirts when performing. (see: http://www.jonimitchell.com/JONICHUCKCOLOR.JPEG) (as well as 'wide whale' corduroy slacks and 'beatle' boots...) Joni *did* like leather and lace but, to be honest, I'm not really sure what gingham is... as I recall, turtlenecks were the norm back then... anyway, personally I think the clothing contrast reference is more regarding the difference in what Joni observed his feelings to be toward her, his co-performer who was at the time she wrote the song, so much more in demand than he that, as she told me one night, they were booked solid so far ahead in different clubs on the circuit that they would't even be in the same city for a year! ("...There's no one to blame, no there's no one to name as a traitor here; The king's on the road and the queen's in the grove till the end of the year") (ie: 'in leather and lace') and his blushingly worsipful female audience... ('in gingham') pat NP: Sugar Mountain - sung by Joni... http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:05:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Which of us is Joni?? - --- paul tyrer wrote: > At first I wondered whether it might be Don Rowe Sorry to disappoint you, but I was hoping my true identity was becoming clear. After riding in on my white Fender Precision time and again to defend Joni's MAGNIFICENT albums of the 1980s, I thought it would be painfully obvious that I am, in fact, Larry Klein! So once and for all: 1. Yes I'm still in love with her but it's more an Agape thing now. 2. The production decisions were all Joni's, I just twisted a few dials and slid a couple of faders up and down here and there. 3. No I did not hold a seance to try and contact Jaco's spirit before the last tour. 4. I always thought 'Night Ride Home' was her sexiest song. See ya at the low end ... Larry (aka Don Rowe) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:07:06 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: BUSTED! (JC) Evian/Joni/Kilauren muses: << As well, notice how nice Ashara is? This is because she is none other than... Judy Collins! Thanks, Ashara/Judy, for keeping those royalties rolling in! >> Hmm.......first I'm Joni.....then I'm Judy....... I know!!!!! I'm Sybil!!!!!! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:08:11 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Manson-Rogers duet...? Rev. Vince says: <> Now THERE'S a duet for you - maybe they could do "Islands In the Stream of Urine" or something like that...Yeeesh, that combo is as unbelievable as...Joni & Billy Idol!! :~) Bob NP:(From the exclusive collection) Lauryn Hill, "Ex-Factor" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:12:16 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Colorado (NJC) David admits: <> No sweat, David, in the words of Animal House, what we need is... ROAD TRIP!! ROAD TRIP!! JONIFEST!! JONIFEST!! Bob, already packing for Ashara's... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:17:12 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch David Lahm lies down on Broadway with: <> David, all I really meant was that the songs are more poetry than they are "Pop" songs with common Pop song structure; as a professional musician you articulted what that entails far better than I could have. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:22:55 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: BUSTED! (JC) Evian/Joni rips off the mask and declares: :::Finally, you ever notice the extensive music collection that Bob Mueller has? How does he afford it, you may ask? Easy... he is my lawyer... please send any requests/lawsuits through him.::: Joni as you are well aware by making the aforementioned statement to the parties of the third part you are in strict violation of Clause (12) Section (E) of your contract...see you in Court! Bob, still ROTFL...and also amazed that folks misspell my last name when it's out there plain as day for all to see...:~) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:32:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Joni's aura (now NJC) - --- "Helen M. Adcock" wrote: > In Alanis' defense, she also has some great lyrics > (IMO), but I'm glad > someone else dislikes the Cranberries as much as I > do. People may not have picked up on this, but I'll bet money that Delores O'Reardon (sp?) is the Dr. Frankenstein to the Alanis Creature. Ever wonder where Alanis got all that shrieky warbling from? Ever listened to a Cranberries record ... a record that sold 28 million copies? Think about it. Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:39:45 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: Which of us is Joni?? My number one suspect is Wally Kairuz! Here's the evidence: 1. AFAIK, no one of us has yet been able to identify him as a real person! 2. The guy writes completely flawless English -- it is therefore highly implausible that he should be a non-native speaker! 3. We know since DJRD that Joni has fun slipping into another gender-role once in a while! WallyK/Joni-- you're blown! Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:40:20 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: colorado, and kids NJC MG stated: <<>> Absolutely MG! And the "listening" part is sometimes so tough for me because as a parent I'm given to quick comebacks and opinions (imagine THAT! :~D) What has helped me a lot is to keep in mind the simple verse "Love is patient, love is kind..." As a matter of fact, we were doing a devotion from "The Upper Room" last week and the reading was I Corinthians 13, so I just started singing (as best I could): "Although I speak in...tongues of men and angels I'm just sounding brass & tinkling cymbals without love"...etc. Nate looked at me like I was from outer space but I'm used to that! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:47:24 -0600 From: Brett Code Subject: RE: NJC GUNS No, just don't see any value in any gun in any form. Even the most finely decorated and glossily polished guns are useless and ugly. So why have them, especially when the people who use them do so to kill, or threaten, or intimidate? I include plastic guns used by kids to pretend they're killing, threatening or intimidating - where is the social value in that? - ---------- From: Gene Mock[SMTP:gmock@psyber.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 6:21 PM To: joni mitchell Subject: NJC GUNS I'm confused, do you guys fear guns more than you fear the person whose finger is on the trigger of the gun? Later gene ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:05:09 -0600 From: Brett Code Subject: RE: Which of us is Joni?? Kakki's got it again! There's at least one more reference to "evian" in Joni-dom. In one of her interviews on one of the tape trees (sorry, I can't be more specific) she was trashing corporations or big business in some manner and said something about "evian" being the word "naïve" spelled backwards. Evian's had us all this time; we're all so naïve. Brett - ---------- From: Kakki[SMTP:kakkib@att.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 9:37 PM To: paul tyrer; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Which of us is Joni?? Paul wonders: >And I was wondering (you can see where this is going can't you) whether any of us has ever >suspected any of us of ACTUALLY BEING JONI in disguise... O.K. my money is on Evian. Perfect cover claiming to be from Joni's hometoon, always bright, delightful and amusing like Joni, always posts late like the night owl Joni and "his" handle "Evian" - well remember that Kilauren was once a model on the Evian bottle label. Er, uh, oh.. maybe Evian is Kilauren!! ;-D Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:11:38 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: Re: 2nd Amendment NJC Debra wrote: <<>> Not even close. Even if each house had the 2/3 vote required for passage, such an amendment will NEVER even come to the floor of the House of Representatives because the (currently Republican) leadership maintains 99% control over what gets a chance at a vote. If you're interested in just how much control the ruling party has over a given House, follow the the machinations behind today's consideration of Kosovo-related resolutions. - --Michael NP: Aretha Franklin, _Lady Soul_ - ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:30:22 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: BUSTED! (JC) In a message dated 4/28/99 9:56:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: << Ok, you caught me.. >> Meester Evian/Joni Eefen I am choking mit laughter mit dis von. I nominate you four Vahlly's Hall Uf Fame. Now, make shoor I get some credit, too. You don van to make ze doctor mat, vould you Jonala? By ze vay, you steel owe me from March. Now I look up diagnositic code for multiple personality disorder. Vey. I see you next week, tree o'clock sharp, mine keender. Dr. SigMondegreen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:52:38 -0700 From: Russell Bowden Subject: O'Keefe in SF. (VLJC) I live in SF, but haven't heard about the O'Keefe exhibition. When? Where? Would love to meet whoever of you JMDLers could make it here. Love, Russ By the way, on the 'is Joni on our list under an assumed name?' issue; I can only say: I AM SPARTACUS!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:20:09 -0500 From: Mary Pitassi Subject: Guns & people (NJC) Gene Mock wrote: > > I'm confused, do you guys fear guns more than you fear the person whose > finger is on the trigger of the gun? Me now: I'd fear the person whose finger is on the trigger of the gun a helluva lot less if he/she were pressing on air instead. Mary P. "Guns don't kill; people (with guns, loaded with bullets) do." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:21:04 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: ola Well Im off to Mexico for Cinquo de Mayo and archeological exploration. Also some lecturing and fun in Mexico City and Puebla. Don't have any great discussions without me, though I will be checking in at a couple of the Universities I will be visiting. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:52:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Minutae of the Dogs and Tigers ... A mix tape I just finished up recently revealed a tiny, but I find interesting similarity between two very different Joni songs ... "Tax Free" and "Harlem In Havana." In 'Tax Free' she sings/speaks "strut like a man." In 'Harlem in Havana' the background vocal in the intro line "That's a man!" sounds virtually identical, as if she sampled herself! Listen for yourselves! And if you'll excuse me, I must now resume my search for a life ... ;-) Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:27:01 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: Joni's aura (now NJC) I always figured that went back a bit further to Sinead O'Conner Don Rowe wrote: > > People may not have picked up on this, but I'll bet > money that Delores O'Reardon (sp?) is the Dr. > Frankenstein to the Alanis Creature. Ever wonder > where Alanis got all that shrieky warbling from? Ever > listened to a Cranberries record ... a record that > sold 28 million copies? Think about it. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:48:01 -0500 From: Suzanne Simpson Subject: [Fwd: Columbine] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------E39B4962FCF04D36C4409C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --------------E39B4962FCF04D36C4409C20 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <372765C4.F232FBC3@bcm.tmc.edu> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:47:17 -0500 From: Suzanne Simpson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Catie list Subject: Columbine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out the article on Hitler at http://www.cybereditions.com/aldaily. That's a great site. The article is thought provoking; I have been thinking a lot about Dar Williams's "Bought and Sold" during these recent events. "You can join a gang of restless boys or start your own militia You can even say your violence is all your own It's bought and sold" - --------------E39B4962FCF04D36C4409C20-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:11:50 -0600 From: evian Subject: Re: Which of us is Joni?? In a message dated 4/27/99 6:34:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul@tyrer23.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Or is Colin REALLY a cat-lover from near Cambridge - or is he IN TRUTH a glamorous folk-jazz singer-songwriter from LA with beautiful long blonde hair (all the cat refs on TTT suddenly make sense - don't they??)!? What do other people think?? PX >> I think you need a hobby. All of the people you mentioned in your post have been identified individually by other list members, either at concerts, Joni-fests (Ashara had one at her home) or by telephone. I hope Joni has better things to do with her time, though unfortunately I don't. ;>) Paul I No, I'm not Joni, either. Hmmmm, all this time, I thought this list WAS somewhat of a hobby! I guess we have all been told -- we all can't have stimulating hobbies like pin-ball like Joni, but now I have been enlightened that all this Tom-Foolery is simply a waste of time. Thanks for the verification on who actually ISN'T Joni... we don't want to actually have FUN here, do we? Evian, who is going to break out the knitting needles in order to do something constructive, seeing as how my hobby horse is too small to ride.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:27:50 -0400 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: RE: NJC GUNS At 08:47 AM 4/28/99 -0600, Brett Code wrote: >No, just don't see any value in any gun in any form. Even the most finely decorated and glossily polished guns are useless and ugly. So why have them, especially when the people who use them do so to kill, or threaten, or intimidate? I include plastic guns used by kids to pretend they're killing, threatening or intimidating - where is the social value in that? > I have to agree, Brett. Why do we have to foster the use of guns in any way, shape or form? It should not be a way to take out aggressions. There are certain sports and exercises to vent these types of energies (so to speak and for example). And don't anyone get into "guns are used for sport" or we'll get the animal activists in here! Heather >---------- >From: Gene Mock[SMTP:gmock@psyber.com] >Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 6:21 PM >To: joni mitchell >Subject: NJC GUNS > >I'm confused, do you guys fear guns more than you fear the person whose >finger is on the trigger of the gun? Later gene > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:45:16 -0600 From: evian Subject: Re: BUSTED! (JC)NJC > I did NOT steal any of your men. I don't NEED your men, I can have my pick. > This was all so long ago. When are going to let it drop? Anyway, you could > have kept James. i didn't. Boy what a mess that was.As for that Chrissie > woman-I know you didn't put her up to it, dear. She doesn't need anyone to > show her how to behave badly. > Oh, and give over with this nonsense about dear Warren. The man in the song > lives in my imagination. > Wonder if my new album gets the same reception as yours. > love, comma, Carly > Carly Honey, I WOULD let it drop... however, remember that time in 86 when Klein (Kakki) and I visited the Vineyard, and you kept making eyes at him? And then, suddenly you ran off into Ben's studio and quickly wrote the lyrics to "Gimme all Night"? Klein kept saying it was just the tequila anacondas talking, but I beg to differ..... Oh well, Bygones! Be well Carly dear... Your kids have a promising future with their singing... definitely not junk food for juvenilles... Lotsa luck getting that useless ass Wenner to give you a review... but then again, it wasn't you who told him to kiss your ass, and you didn't throw your drink at him, so there may be hope! In any event, take care... and if you see James riding his bike on the Vineyard, tell him to return my calls, please.... I ain't ready to change my name again, but I sure would like to see him sometime! Yours, Joan ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #189 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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