From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #187 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, April 28 1999 Volume 04 : Number 187 TapeTree #8 is ready to roll. To sign up go to: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Playing with guns (NJC) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re[2]: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: my first post NJC [dsk ] Re: my first post [CaTGirl627@aol.com] NJC, God and schools [Vince Lavieri ] CD's on Trees [Patrick Mead ] Re: NJC Colorado/2nd Amend. [dsk ] Which of us is Joni?? ["paul tyrer" ] Religion (NJC) ["paul tyrer" ] 2nd Amendment NJC [al_date@email.com] Georgia O'Keefe (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Fw: Joni's aura ["Tube" ] Re: Which of us is Joni?? (NJC) [Ashara@aol.com] Religion/private time [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: NJC- Colorado/High School [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Re[2]: Colorado (NJC) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] NJC GUNS ["Gene Mock" ] Re: Jazz Takes On Joni Mitchell [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Colorado (NJC) [David Wright ] Re: my first post ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Priorities (NJC) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: NJC- Colorado/High School ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: NJC- Colorado/High School ["Kakki" ] IT'S PARTY TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Ashara@aol.com] Re: Which of us is Joni?? ["Kakki" ] FW: Virus Control Please Read -- Important Information ["Cupit, Greg" ] Re: NJC GUNS [dsk ] NJC: re CO, kids, guns, JMDL, therapy, parental responsibility [Don Sloan] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:22:34 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Playing with guns (NJC) In a message dated 4/27/1999 6:50:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << Carole King has also mentioned guns in two of her songs: Smackwater Jack - "Now, Smackwater Jack, he bought a shot gun. Cos he was in the mood for a little confrontation". And Goat Annie - "Then she leveled her 12-guage with a blast she sent 'em packin', Go, Goat Annie." >> I shot the Sheriff-Bob Marley Snapshot-Peter Gabriel Shotgun-Southern Culture on the Skids Hey Joe-performed by Jimmy Hendrix Among others... Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:26:21 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch <> A pretty good oversimplification Randy, but I think Blue is more emotional than FTR & DED is more cerebral than Hejira...I'd hate to put any of her records in a category, they're all such wonderful head/heart combos... <> Very true, and a greater variety of sounds on FTR - Of course, Hejira's "songs" are more "ambient poetry with acoustic jazz accompaniments", or something that defies description, certainly not any song structures that anyone else would come up with. Bob NP: Talking Heads: "Pull Up The Roots" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:34:37 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: my first post NJC Hi Dan, welcome to the fray... and in true JMDL fashion, I'll pass right by all the wonderful comments you have about Joni that I agree with and zero in on some other comments: Kleronomos@aol.com wrote: > > hi. my name is Dan, and I think Joni is one of the greatest artists of our > time. ... > We ALL want to do SOMETHING, and so gun control becomes a fresh topic all > over again (leave it to Clinton to capitolize on the situation to push his > agenda). But the problem is insanity. That's right. If we don't help kids > from going insane, they're gonna find a way to wreak havoc. They'll find > weapons to do it with, gun control or not. Shall we ban deer rifles? Gun control may not be THE answer, but the easy availability of weapons that are made to kill as many people as possible in a very short time is something that needs to be looked at. When I think of gun control, I'm not considering banning hunter's rifles or even a handgun if someone feels it's needed for their protection. It's the mass-destruction weapons that make no sense to me. > Consider this: we as a country have systematically pushed God out of the schools in the name of "separation of Church and State". When our forefathers wrote those words, did they mean "separation of God and State"? Not at all. Just read the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. These people realized that without God, there would be no worthy or useful State. "with firm reliance on Divine Providence, we pledge our lives.. fortunes... sacred honor..." "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." Our forefathers realized that each citizen must be free to worship as one's conscience dictates. Amendment I to the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..." The problem with communal prayer in school is: what prayer is it? Do we assume that everyone can join in a Christian prayer? And even if we all believe in Christianity, can I insist, for example, that everyone in a school say the "Hail Mary"? How well will that go over with the Baptists? In order for me to pray as I might wish to, does everyone that cannot in good conscience join with me just have to remain silent? And that's supposed to be OK (because MY right to freely worship is being expressed)? The free exercise of one's religion is not affected by not having communal prayers in schools. Any student that wants to can privately say a prayer anytime, there can be family prayers at breakfast, at dinner, at bedtime, as well as worship services with the community of believers. I don't see how not having communal prayers in schools is something to get angry about. Or, that having such prayers in school will somehow solve today's problems. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:33:07 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: my first post In a message dated 4/27/1999 9:39:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Kleronomos@aol.com writes: << Where states licence citizens to carry concealed weapons, crime goes DOWN, and everyone benefits, whether they choose to carry or not (it's a very personal decision). You may remember that it was a teacher with his own gun who apprehended without incident, a boy who did one of the shootings a few months ago. >> Like Homer Simpson said....But I am angry now!!! Catgirl...not wishing to respnd to the rest of what you had to say because you BLEW ME AWAY! And if an unarmed theif takes your gun,,,then where will you be? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:51:07 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: NJC, God and schools In dialogue between Dan and Bob, it was said: Dan: Push God out of the schools? What's gonna happen? We shouldn't be surprized. The Mansons of the world are ready to rush in and fill the spiritual void.>> > > Bob: Only if God is pushed out of the HOME as well...let the schools do what > they > do best, > I am rather with Bob on this. The God that I believe cannot be pushed out of schools or anywhere. However, I do strongly support the separation of church and state. Let the school do the job of the schools, and let the church and home do their jobs. If everyone who wanted to pass another law to force any type of religious thing in school would actually volunteer to teach Sunday Church School every week and bring the neighbor kids to church, then maybe the problem would be addressed without having the state involved. As far as Marilyn Manson goes, the primary purpose of rock and roll is to upset your parents. Most kids I know who like Marilyn Manson don't take him seriously... the few who do, if it wasn't Marilyn Manson, there would be something else. I have found it advantageous to be familiar with Marilyn Manson so I discuss on a rationale basis why I think MM is way off base instead of the knee-jerk, "oh, he's weird..." and that brings about conversation rather than diatribes, on both sides. Besides, Marilyn Manson has marketed out his gothic thing and has now switched to glam rock; he is nothing more than a Kenny Rogers, doing whatever type of thing will sell. And welcome, Dan! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:48:16 -0700 From: Patrick Mead Subject: CD's on Trees At 23:48:45 4/26/99, CaTGirl wrote: >We are in the process of discussing this at this very minute. It appears >that there are a few members who have Cd burners, etc. The main problem is >however, a tape has 45 minutes on one side hence, 90 min. tape. A Cd has 74 >or 80 minutes on a CD, depending on which one you get. There would have to >be alot of overhauling of everything to make it all fit perfectly. Whoever >is going to take on the task has his hands full. I would love to get all of >Joni trees on Cd. I will be painstakingly putting DAT onto CD, keeping in >mind the difference in format. Once I get all mine done. It will then be >very easy to just *run off* a CD. It is the wave of the future, so I think >it will eventually happen! :) >Catgirl Just a couple of more thoughts on this subject to avoid any confusion: There exists an adequate number of people on this list with the ability and the willingness to make CD masters of the material we tree. That is NOT the barrier. I assume that there an adequate number of people who can clone CD's to serve as branches, but to my knowledge that assumption has not been tested. Michael's original post was accurate, all that is involved is a little time working with the source material, the subsequent cloning of the branch and leaf copies is very simple. Mastering a new CD can be fairly laborious on a computer, but it is relatively simple on an audio device. I can master a CD from analog material in a pleasant evening's work. Most of the material we have treed comes from analog source material, so it would not have to be mastered from DAT. Our tree administrator has concerns about distribution of the tree material on CD-R. As I don't share those concerns, I will not try to capture the argument here, as I do not want to mis-state it. Since our tree administrator provides the source material, his wishes will of course be respected. I have made CD "remasters" of a couple of the branch tapes from prior trees and I am sure others have as well. So while CatGirl says CD's are "the wave of the future" I think they are actually the wave of the present, and I think Michael's post on this subject raises a valid question. best wishes, /Pat mailto:pmead@pacbell.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:54:17 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: NJC Colorado/2nd Amend. catman wrote: > > Whilst on my trip to New England in April 97, I stayed in a motel in West > Lebonon. The owner was a woman, probably old enough to be mother. We had a > conversation which blew my mind. This woman was moaning about the govt, taxes, > and Clinton especially. All normal, I thought. Till she then said it was time'we > took up arms and got rid of them'!!!! And no she was not joking. I gathered she > felt NH ought to be independant. I don't think I will ever forget that > conversation. Mainly because she looked like anyone's mum and not at all like a > right wing radical!(whatever they look like ) Interesting comments. I bitched and moaned all through the Republican years, through all the mergers and acquisitions that took place because of the weakened antitrust laws, through the resulting company closings and job losses, through the higher taxes... very long and frustrating time for me. Taking up arms, though, was not something that ever crossed my mind. It's scary to me that some people see that as a way to get what they want. It's the nature of a democracy that none of us have everything exactly the way we'd like it to be. DS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:32:41 +0100 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: Which of us is Joni?? Hi y'all I was reading an interview with Suzie Quattro in the Guardian the other week. Suzie enjoyed a brief spell in the 70s as a glamish Rock-n-roller in the UK with great hits such as Can the Can and Devilgate Drive... Anyway, during the interview, SQ admitted that she sometimes took part in her own discussion pages under an assumed name! And I was wondering (you can see where this is going can't you) whether any of us has ever suspected any of us of ACTUALLY BEING JONI in disguise... At first I wondered whether it might be Don Rowe (claiming not to have heard of Cher since 1972 ('Girly Guile') seemed very Joni-ish to me - *and* very admirable to boot) - but then maybe Ashara's absence is due to a lengthy recovery after touring with BD... Or is Colin REALLY a cat-lover from near Cambridge - or is he IN TRUTH a glamorous folk-jazz singer-songwriter from LA with beautiful long blonde hair (all the cat refs on TTT suddenly make sense - don't they??)!? What do other people think?? PX ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:21:09 +0100 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: Religion (NJC) Colin Your post on religion was absolutely spot on - religion shouldn't be used to oppress other people and should be a matter for individuals alone. In fact, that's exactly what the first Christian patriarchs were aiming at when they began to put the New testament together (maybe you have holy ancestors??). Sorry, I'm about to go into lecture mode now! These Christians believed that the New holy book should serve as a fresh theological basis from which individuals could deduce their own moral standards. Thus, the purity codes of the O.T. - demanding particular standards from the Jewish people enforced by Jewish tradition and religious practice - were utterly against the spirit of the New. Sadly, most modern Christians seem to think that the old codes were rejected precisely in order that a new, distinctively Christian purity code could take their place - which wasn't the case. A Christianity true to its origins would rather present us with a model an anti-oppressive, personal, individual religious practice. Of course, as we know, it doesn't. PX ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:36:05 -0400 (EDT) From: al_date@email.com Subject: 2nd Amendment NJC I am not particularly fond of guns. In fact, I have never owned one. I am also not particularly fond of abortion. But I would outlaw neither guns nor abortion. I have this rather extreme belief in personal choice and tolerance, that stems from the moral philosophy of John Locke. By ensuring the personal liberty of others, one hopes to gain it for oneself. Gun ownership is a valid personal choice for an adult human being. The Bill of Rights was written by men who were very wary of the powers of govt. As a result, they enshrined into law some rather absolute ideals, such as freedom of/from religion, freedom of speech, freedom from double jeopardy, freedom from unwarranted search/seizure, and the freedom to keep and bear arms. All of these freedoms were intended to permanently limit the power of the national govt. And most Americans would agree that these freedoms have served us well, generally speaking. If there was any doubt about the Founders' intentions, they wrote the 9th and 10th Amendments, which reserved all other powers to the people and to the states. But they were not totally dogmatic. They realized that the times do change, which is why they allowed for *amendments* to the Constitution in the first place. At every major turning point in our history, an AMENDMENT to the constitution was required. This not only allowed for necessary change, but it preserved the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, as living legal documents. If you want to regulate guns, and keep all the other freedoms intact, then the appropriate course of action is to attempt to repeal the Second Amendment. This Amendment has never been struck down by the High Court. By passing myriad gun control laws which fly in the face of the clear right to keep and bear arms, you are undermining our basic freedoms. You are forcing politicians and courts to misread the Constitution. You are pretending that the Second Amendment says something other than what it says. The way to LOSE ALL your rights, is by ignoring and undermining the Constitution. If you want to regulate guns, then AMEND the Constitution FIRST. - --Al Date - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:45:50 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Georgia O'Keefe (NJC) I understand that the Georgia O'Keefe exhibition currently in Washington (?) New York(?) is on its way to San Francisco at some point. How about a jmdl gathering up there (a la the LA Van Gogh meeting)? What do you northern Californian jmdlers think? And Jim Lamadama asked: >I'm wondering how the NJC-free list is working out. (Hi Steve D.!) Er...(blush)...I'm not subscribed to it... :) ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:44:10 +0200 From: "Tube" Subject: Fw: Joni's aura - -----Original Message----- From: Tube To: philipf@tinet.ie Date: 27 April 1999 23:20 Subject: Re: Joni's aura >I wonder would Joni be famous if she >>had the songs but not the stunning beauty, presence, personality >>and general aura. >She probably would, I'm not saying that an 'aura' is an absolute necessity >to get ahead in showbiz - after all, beauty's in the eye of the beholder >anyway. It just helps to have it though I think. > >>Alanis Morrisette looks a >>mess but sells millions. > >Yep but she has a real interesting face and a ton of hyperactive energy > >>I read somewhere that The Cranberries >>have sold 28 million records. To me it's scary to think that 28 >>million homes around the world contain records by a group >>who can't sing, can't play or write, who look crap and have no >>personality. Maybe it's better just to accept it as one of life's >>mysteries. > >Yeah, didn't they play Woodstock 94 as well? Weird! With bands I guess it >can be different. The right combination of band members makes a chemistry >all of it's own, and if they get a following of people who have caught their >live act and loved it, well things can quickly build from their, even if the >musicianship is non-existent. Punk proved that. > >That reminds me, I once saw Siouxsie and Budgie pushing a trolley of >groceries in a supermarket in London once - They looked like immortals. >DEFINITELY a combined aura there man! > >Tube > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:07:13 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: Which of us is Joni?? (NJC) Savvy Paul writes: << but then maybe Ashara's absence is due to a lengthy recovery after touring with BD... >> Oh, Paul......you found me out!!!! I was hoping I was more discreet, and would be able to continue my guise a bit longer! But, no.......you had to go spill the beans! Yes, I am really Joni, and have been having a great time with all of you, thinking that my real name was "Ashara!" I really did need that long rest from the Dylan tour. It really just wore me out. Well, since my cover is blown anyway, from now on, you can all call me either Joni, or by my "pen name" of Ashara. Hugs, Joni {I mean "Ashara"} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:19:25 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Religion/private time paul tyrer wrote: > In fact, > that's exactly what the first Christian patriarchs were aiming at when they > began to put the New testament together (maybe you have holy ancestors??). > Sorry, I'm about to go into lecture mode now! These Christians believed > that the New holy book should serve as a fresh theological basis from which > individuals could deduce their own moral standards. Thus, the purity codes > of the O.T. - demanding particular standards from the Jewish people enforced > by Jewish tradition and religious practice - were utterly against the spirit > of the New. I have written about religion here before and am hesitant to keep doing so... I suspect the spirituality level of the JMDL has sparked because of Littleton, Colorado, and Joni's fans are precisely the type of caring people who respond. Without wanting to keep going on and on about religion, I must differ from Paul above, as a Christian. Nothing in our faith is to be seen as being superior to Judaism. Jesus is of the faith confessing in the Prime Covenant (not the "Old" Testament, with its pejorative implications). While I am well aware of the discussion of being free from the law, remember that we Christians are the branches grafted on to the tree of faith, in other words, of Judaism. I could go on at great length about the Levitical purity codes, etc., and their relationship to Christianity, but I won't... suffice to say, we as Christians must be people of the Prime Covenant as we understand our Christian Covenant (New Testament) and be very careful to not think that somehow the Jewish faith is an unfulfilled or lacking faith that we have the answers for; indeed, we need the revelation of Jesus to know the God that they already know. I am a Christian, and my faith is rooted in the faith of Jesus, which is rooted in the Prime Covenant. And now for something completely different: even clergy have private time with their spouse, and last night I put Hits, Misses, TI, C&S, and TTT in the cd player and put it on shuffle... and what a delightful sound track that was to an evening of love. I recall some discussion here as to what of Joni's songs were sexy... after last night, I would say, all of them! (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:11:13 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch In a message dated 4/27/1999 2:45:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul@tyrer23.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Paul replies to Bob: I wonder though whether people can move from thinking FTR is album of the century to preferring Hejira... They're very different animals... Does anyone rate FTR and H as equally brilliant - or does someone who likes one like the other a lot less? I mean, I love H, whereas I only love bits of FTR and it comes fairly low on my list - below Blue, TI, LOTC, STAS, C&S, HoSL and NRH. Is it possible to be a Hejira-bunny AND a Roses-queen?! PX By the way, does anyone have any goss on who 'the priest' was in - surprisingly - 'The Priest'? (I really love the drumming on that track...). >> Is it possible to love all of Joni's albums equally but differently? I love Hejira and could say it is my favorite however, I also love Blue, LOTF, FTR, C, CAS, and STAS. I really love TI and CMITRS. I guess you could say I love Joni and all her music. I could care less what she looked like although she is gorgeous! It is her music I fell in love with first. Her beauty is just a bonus! Catgirl..yes I am a girl but I still think Joni is a beautiful Goddess! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:23:55 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC- Colorado/High School In a message dated 4/27/1999 3:34:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jenaya@playnetwork.com writes: << I'm truly devastated by what's happened, especially as my aunt was a school administrator in the Denver area for 30 years, and I'm frightened, because I have all kinds of family in public jr./sr. high schools, but more than anything, I'm PISSED. I'm angry that this was allowed to happen (and it was literally allowed to happen), and I'm pissed that everyone wants to point fingers, and I'm pissed that it's "my" generation that has to suffer the wake-up call. Hurt, scared, sad, weary, and hopeful... Jenaya >> THAT, my dear, was so beautifully written. Your points are clear and you pretty much summed the whole thing up to me. If only we could learn from past mistakes, this world would be a much better place. You articulate your feelings very well and I am in total agreement! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:41:25 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Colorado (NJC) In a message dated 4/27/1999 4:08:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << The sad truth is that you can do your job as a parent and you're at the mercy of the worst parent out there who doesn't take their job as seriously. But then again, it's one thing when your kid comes home with a bloody nose from a fight at school and another when easy access to guns gets him killed. It seems like we all agree on the mish-mash of issues that come into play here...I appreciate your well-written thoughts on them. Bob >> I personlly think that there are many facets in rearing children. Number 1, we all perceive our environments differently. You can have 2 kids grow up in the same house and one will become a murderer and the other a minister. Kids pick and chose who they hang out with. It is so hard to keep them away from kids you are not crazy about. My 15 year old does what he wants to do. I am on him alot and try to always know where he is, the phone number, who he is with etc. This works to a degree but then there are times of saying one thing and doing another. My son knows I love him. I hope that what I have instilled in him as a child ( frankly-what children learn from when they are small effects their whole entire life) he will take with him and know the difference between right and wrong. We have had many uphill battles. He has gotten in trouble with the police a few times. We have been in counseloring. One thing I won't do is give up. We start back at ground zero and try again. I will say since he has started his job, he has been a changed person. His last escapade got him 25 hours of community service and paying the repair on the cars he hit (over $3ooo.oo in damages) He was scared and so was I, that he would have to go to juvenile hall. That really got him into a different mode. Please understand he does have ADHD and can be very compulsive. He is becoming a better person and is finnally growing up. But it took alot of effort on both of our parts. I must say sometimes when he is not home and the phone rings that it is the police. Fortunately, I have been wrong. If the police do call, we willl just start from ground zero and keep doing it over and over again until we get it right! Catgirl...giving a glimpse of my own personal world ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:21:24 -0700 From: "Gene Mock" Subject: NJC GUNS I'm confused, do you guys fear guns more than you fear the person whose finger is on the trigger of the gun? Later gene ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:31:24 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Jazz Takes On Joni Mitchell I finally got my copy of David Lahm's "Jazz Takes On Joni Mitchell". I accidentally ordered it from Music Boulevard instead of CDNOW (sorry Wally it won't happen again). I ordered it 3 weeks ago and it just arrived yesterday. It was well worth the wait!!! David, I want to thank you for producing such a FANTASTIC album!!! Being a Joni fan and a jazz lover, the two mixed together are magical. My father raised all of us kids listening to jazz, and I only wish he were alive to here this wonderful cd. I never could get him to appreciate Joni (even "Mingus"), but he would have loved JTOJM, especially your rendition of "Solid Love". Kakki's review is right on the money, so I won't go into details. The cd insert says to contact Arkadia records for your current tour schedule, but since you're a fellow JMDLer, I'll just ask you "When are you coming to Florida"? I'm also looking forward to reading Wally's conversation with you on the JM homepage. Thanks again for expressing Joni's music in a different, but wonderful way. I'm real curious to know what Joni thinks of it. I'm sure she's flattered and pleased. Perhaps her next project will be "Joni Takes On David Lahm". :{) Jimmy np: David Lahm "Edith & The Kingpin" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:57:57 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Colorado (NJC) Bob M. writes: > < keeping a much more watchful eye on their children.>> > > I know that's true because I'm one of 'em! Yes, so are my parents. > I didn't tell that scenario very clearly....The parent of the boy > being persecuted got the Harris/Klebold web site information and > forwarded it to the Sheriff, only to see his efforts die on the vine. I see. Sorry. I understood you to say that Harris's or Klebold's father called the sherriff on his own son (though that did sound a bit odd). Anyway, I still think parental liability in cases like these is impossibly nebulous. It seems to have a slight "guilty until proven innocent" tinge: if you produced children who did such a thing, you must be a bad parent -- the burden of proof is backwards. Another minor correction to my previous post; the boys in Arkansas were 11 and 13 years old. And I apologize if my tone was harsh in my previous post. It seemed so to me after I sent it. I think this whole thing is beginning to get to me. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:59:59 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: my first post > Push God out of the schools? What's gonna happen? We shouldn't be surprized. > The Mansons of the world are ready to rush in and fill the spiritual void. The whole school prayer issue had come and gone by the time I was in high school in the early 70's. I don't remember ever being told to pray in the public schools I attended. We did say the Pledge of Allegiance in grade school (one nation, under God). If the absence of religious teaching is the reason for the rash of school violence in recent years then why did it take so long to happen? Religion doesn't have the market cornered on morality. Would you have just one religion taught? Rather exclusive when you consider there are so many. You don't have to push the Bible or the Koran or the Torah at people to make them understand the difference between right and wrong or at least make them understand something as fundamental as the value of a human life. > > I disagree with Joni's line "guru books, the Bible... only a reminder that > you're just not good enough..." (the next line is something else, though! > and delivered so meaningfully!). I know many of you have found real answers > in God's Word, as I have. I don't know what 'God' is and I certainly don't think that anyone has a direct line to whatever 'God' is to be able to determine what it's 'Word' might be. Ok, I've alienated enough people for one day. I'll shut up. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:02:47 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Priorities (NJC) - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 6:32 AM Subject: Re: Priorities (NJC) > i think that both don and jody's posts about their decision not to have > children were right on target, for them. i made a decision, too...to not buy > into this american notion that in order to be good parents we have to have > two cars in the garage, a solid savings account, two incomes... I say 'Right on, Amy!' I'm sure your kids have a great life & will grow up to be happy, well-adjusted human beings! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:34:44 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: NJC- Colorado/High School > Catman asked several days ago for reactions from the younger members of the > list to the Littleton shooting, but only now am I calm enough to sit down > and write my reflections. > > I graduated, 2 years ago, from a high school very much (from my > understanding) like Colubine. I grew up in a small rural suburb of Seattle, > population 10,000, all white middle class. I wasn't in the least bit > popular, but it really wasn't my concern. > > I'm truly devastated by what's happened, especially as my aunt was a school > administrator in the Denver area for 30 years, and I'm frightened, because I > have all kinds of family in public jr./sr. high schools, but more than > anything, I'm PISSED. I'm angry that this was allowed to happen (and it was > literally allowed to happen), and I'm pissed that everyone wants to point > fingers, and I'm pissed that it's "my" generation that has to suffer the > wake-up call. > > > Hurt, scared, sad, weary, and hopeful... > > Jenaya > I asked for the input of some of our younger members. Thank you, Jenaya, for speaking up. I think we need your perspective and the perspective of the young people who are surely the people that the Colorado tragedy is affecting the most. The fact that you seem to be the first to chime in makes me wonder if the others are feeling excluded from this whole discussion. I sometimes get the feeling that some of us are speaking as if those younger members aren't reading as well. Mark in Seattle PS: I live in Shoreline. I'd be curious to know where you went to high school but I understand if you don't feel comfortable saying. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:55:31 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Georgia O'Keefe (NJC) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Dulson To: Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 3:45 PM Subject: Georgia O'Keefe (NJC) > I understand that the Georgia O'Keefe exhibition currently > in Washington (?) New York(?) is on its way to San Francisco > at some point. How about a jmdl gathering up there (a la the LA > Van Gogh meeting)? What do you northern Californian jmdlers think? > > And Jim Lamadama asked: > > >I'm wondering how the NJC-free list is working out. (Hi Steve D.!) > > Er...(blush)...I'm not subscribed to it... :) I'm so glad, Steve! This made me laugh! Don't ever leave us! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:42:55 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: Re: NJC- Colorado/High School Jenaya -- Thanks for posting your incredibly articulate and insightful thoughts on the Columbine killings, as well as your own recent experiences in high school. Many other folks have also written stunningly sensible posts -- thanks for sharing them. - -- Kate in CO ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:12:30 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NJC- Colorado/High School Jenaya wrote: >Not to be cliche, but "it take a village..." and it > seems like we spent all of our time trying to figure out who's responsible > for what instead of all beginning to take responsibility for the nightmarish > state of our society. It's not the parent's sole responsibility, it's not > the teacher's, it's not the government's, it's OURS. It's time our country, > and more so, the world, start thinking like one big *US*, instead of "us", > and "them". I must join the chorus in saying that your post was just wonderful to read. It certainly does take a village. Whether we as individuals choose to focus our rants on guns or parents or teachers or cliques or lack of religion or violence, at least we are not looking the other way thinking it's not our concern. At least we care enough to rant and are ranting from the heart. There is at least a dialogue going on now everywhere. Surely good will come from it. Kakki NP: Joni at the Gene Autry - Refuge of the Roads ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:26:50 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: IT'S PARTY TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To the tune of "People's Parties" All the people at the Jonifest In New England They had a lot fun you see They had a lot smiles Some were singing Some were playing Some were watching it from the lawn, Some were munching on a grand feast That went on 'til dawn. YES, YOU GUESSED IT!!!!!!!! IT'S THE 2nd NEW ENGLAND LABOR DAY WEEKEND JONIFEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHEN: Saturday, September 4, 1999 (That's the "official" date, but as before, if you are coming from a long way, talk to me about coming in on Friday.) WHERE: Ashara's house- north of Boston TIME: 1:00 PM DEPARTURE: at some point on Sunday FOR: JMDLers (since space is limited, significant others will be allowed *only* if we are not full to capacity.) WHAT: LOTS of live music (mostly Joni) on the famous Jonifest outdoor stage, sleep- over, and Joni sing-a-long! Also, possibly another Joni trivia game, shmoosing with JMDL friends old and new, raffles galore, and much, much more! WHY: The Top Ten Reasons: 10) Because it is SO much fun to get together! 9) The neighbors enjoyed it so much last year, they want MORE! 8) CO Jonifest is not happening. :-( 7) It takes too long to meet all these JMDLers one-by-one. 6) To give Michael Paz a place to go this summer. 5) So we can hope that Joni will show up at the party. 4) Because the more out of tune voices, the better. 3) Jesse is letting people sleep in his room this year! 2) To get a "real" hug from Ashara. :-D And the number 1 reason for the NEW ENGLAND LABOR DAY WEEKEND JONIFEST: 1) To scientifically prove the saying "If you can talk you can sing." The New England Labor Day Weekend Jonifest Committee has reconvened!!! Back in service to you to make this the most INCREDIBLE happening: Ashara- Hospitality and Housing Hostess Maggie- Cordial Culinary Queen Heather- Divine Diva of Decorations Ric- Sultan of Stupendous Surprises Chuck E.- Maestro and Master of Music Katie- Gracious Goddess of Games Details are being worked on by the commitee, and more information will follow as it becomes available. Since I do not want to take up bandwidth on the JMDL, there will be a separate mailing list for those interested in the party. Please sign up even if you are remotely interested. http://www.jmdl.com/lists/ (Of course, I can't stop *other* people from telling you all what a great time they had last year!!) ;-) This year, there will be an "admission fee." To reserve your spot at the party, you will need 3 things: 1) A nonrefundable check in ANY amount, payable to Wally Breese, to benefit Wally and to help him keep up the Joni Mitchell web pages as he continues to battle his illness. 2) A completed questionnaire either by e-mail or snail mail. As this is in my home, and I do not know many of you personally, NO ONE will be admitted without the questionnaire completely filled out. Because of Labor Day being a very busy weekend, please send your check right away if you are planning to attend. There is a limited amount of space at the house, so it will be on a first-come, first-served basis. There are ample hotels/motels in the area as well for the overflow. 3) A small picture of you (no bigger than 4x6) Since the CO Jonifest isn't happening, and since so many people regretted not coming last Labor Day, I expect a full house, so get off your tush, and send your responses in NOW!!!!!! Guaranteed a GREAT TIME!!!! For more information about this year's Fest, send a blank message to: info-laborday@jmdl.com To check out the fun we had at LAST YEAR'S Fest, go to: http://www.jmdl.com/gallery/party9809.htm Party hugs, Ashara http://www.photon.net/lightnet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:37:25 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Which of us is Joni?? Paul wonders: >And I was wondering (you can see where this is going can't you) whether any of us has ever >suspected any of us of ACTUALLY BEING JONI in disguise... O.K. my money is on Evian. Perfect cover claiming to be from Joni's hometoon, always bright, delightful and amusing like Joni, always posts late like the night owl Joni and "his" handle "Evian" - well remember that Kilauren was once a model on the Evian bottle label. Er, uh, oh.. maybe Evian is Kilauren!! ;-D Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:03:32 +1000 From: "Cupit, Greg" Subject: FW: Virus Control Please Read -- Important Information > ---------- > From: Mayne, Elsa > Sent: Wednesday, 28 April 1999 13:55 > To: ALL STAFF (Memos) > Subject: Virus Control Please Read -- Important Information > Importance: High > > I have just received information on a couple of nasty virus' attached > to e-mail messages, please be careful as they appear to be quite > lethal. If you receive an e-mail about helping a poor dog and winning > a holiday or taking guts and saying Jesus DO NOT OPEN THEM. Delete > them immediately. > > Here are copies of the messages received: > > Message 1 > If you receive an Email with the following message, dont open but > delete > > it. They will wipe your harddrive and crash the system. Someone at > > Garrisons opened one of them and crashed the system. > > 1 Please help the poor dog and win a holiday > > 2 It takes guts to say Jesus > > Message 2 > WARNING > > If you receive an email titled "It Takes Guts to Say 'Jesus'" DO > NOT OPEN > > IT. It will erase everything on your hard drive. This information > was > > announced yesterday morning from IBM; AOL states that this is a very > > dangerous virus, much worse than "Melissa", and that there is NO > remedy > > for > > it at this time. > > Some very sick individual has succeeded in using the re-format > function > > from > > Norton Utilities causing it to completely erase all documents on the > hard > > drive. It has been designed to work with Netscape Navigator and > Microsoft > > Internet Explorer. It destroys MacIntosh and IBM compatible > computers. > > This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about > it. > > Pass this warning along to EVERYONE in your address book and please > share > > it > > with all your online friends ASAP so that this threat may be > stopped. > > Please practice cautionary measures and tell anyone that may have > access > > to > > your computer. Forward this warning to everyone that might access > the > > internet > > Regards Elsa > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:13:48 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Which of us is Joni?? In a message dated 4/27/99 6:34:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul@tyrer23.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Or is Colin REALLY a cat-lover from near Cambridge - or is he IN TRUTH a glamorous folk-jazz singer-songwriter from LA with beautiful long blonde hair (all the cat refs on TTT suddenly make sense - don't they??)!? What do other people think?? PX >> I think you need a hobby. All of the people you mentioned in your post have been identified individually by other list members, either at concerts, Joni-fests (Ashara had one at her home) or by telephone. I hope Joni has better things to do with her time, though unfortunately I don't. ;>) Paul I No, I'm not Joni, either. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:13:45 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: 2nd Amendment NJC al_date@email.com wrote: > > If you want to regulate guns, then AMEND the > Constitution FIRST. Yes, this may be the way to go, otherwise it feels like ineffective bickering. So: 2/3 of both houses are needed to propose amendments, which then have to be ratified by 3/4 of the states in order to become part of the Constitution. Not easy. Does anyone know if this process has been started yet? Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:53:38 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: NJC GUNS Gene Mock wrote: > > I'm confused, do you guys fear guns more than you fear the person whose > finger is on the trigger of the gun? Is this an attempt at a "guns don't kill, people do" statement? That's one of those statements that sounds good, but doesn't really mean anything. Guns are created to kill; they're not pieces of sculpture. The two students in Colorado fired about 900 rounds! So whether I'd fear the gun or the person in that situation doesn't really matter, does it? DS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:17:38 -0700 From: Don Sloan Subject: NJC: re CO, kids, guns, JMDL, therapy, parental responsibility Greetings everyone.... The many and varied posts to the List about issues relating to the Littleton nightmare have been eye-opening, indeed. Many are very touching - I for one appreciate those who have opened their hearts and shared their deep feelings with the rest of us.... especially those of you with children of your own. Although we represent many varying opinions about this, I know we all view this incident as a great tragedy. It has touched us all. As one of the few who support responsible gun ownership (I know - to some here, the words "responsible" and "gun ownership" don't belong in the same sentence), I hesitated posting my views on the subject. There were a few insults, a few flames, but that's okay. If I can disagree with a Supreme Court decision, I guess I can disagree with most of you :-). But maybe since I am in the tiny minority here with regard to the gun issue, I would like to share my *thing* with guns and maybe some of you will have a greater understanding of me and/or my position. As a living relic from the 60's, I was and still am a peacemonger. If looks mean anything, even though I work in what is considered to be a fairly conservative profession, I still let my freak flag fly in the way of long hair. (If you've seen the PWWAM video, I am the long-hair guy you sometimes see behind Joni's right shoulder.) Yeah, I know, there are a lot of longhair redneck rifle tottin' beer drinkin' asskickin' dudes around, but believe me when I say that is definitely not my background! I don't like guns and never have. Due to my work, I can legally carry concealed weapons and of course can have them in my home. But for over 20 years, I've chosen not to do so. I even moved away from my home town a few years ago when it became difficult for me to avoid being seen by people on the street who might well want to do me harm. I came to believe that if I stayed there, I would have to start carrying a gun and chose to move rather than do that. But recently, due to work-related incidents, I decided it was time for me to purchase and learn to use a weapon. This was a sad day for me and a decision that was long and hard to make. Despite what many of you think, once I was forced across that line, I felt better and safer but only because I am trained and prepared psychologically to protect myself or others if the need arises. Even though many people are killed with their own guns, these are mostly people who have no training and/or are not psycholigically prepared to use them. Therefore (IMO), those folks have no business owning a gun. Anyway, I don't want to open that argument again but I maintain I have the right to choose this means of protection though it pains me deeply to do so. Everyday I am surrounded by young men and boys as young as 13 who are fun to be with most of the time. Maybe my job would be easier in some ways if they were always assholes. But most of them, well, if I were to introduce them to any of you, you would probably think they were sweet kids and wouldn't mind having them live next door to you. Unfortunately, for many reasons, this innocense is only a part of who most of these guys are. Out of maybe 100 kids, there are almost always a few who I think are genuinely evil. But the others are more like werewolves. They appear to be okay one minute, but then (and I'm speaking mostly about when they are free, in the community), they turn and do some terrible crime. The saddest thing I have seen happen over the years is how these kids have come to feel completely unattached to their victims and what they have done to them. It's truly horrific and sad and frightening. I mean, how many of you have looked into the sweet face of a 13 or 14 year old boy and know that behind his eyes is a killer with no remorse? Or someone who can, with a few friends, knock down a 70 year old man on the street, beat him, kick him and take his money? Or walk up behind a girl on a school campus and, because he was mad at her, catch her hair on fire, push her down, kick her and walk away as if nothing had happened? Or sitting with a kid as you help him with the math section of the pre-GED exam when suddenly you remember he is there because he brutally beat his own mother? This wasn't the way it was even ten years ago - it is getting worse almost by the day. So in some ways, I am surprised that there aren't more Littletons... and I am about as sure as I sit here tonight that there will be more before we wake up. I could go on and on..... but my job is to help these young boys learn that it is to their benefit to learn responsibility, that they are in fact connected to everyone around them, that what goes around does, in fact, come around.... and that they do have options in life. My job - as an adult male human being is to set an example for them, to try to provide them with some things they never got from a man at home, mostly because there wasn't a man at home. There were only men on the streets. So that's where they went to become somebody. I love these kids - I literally shed tears a few times a month while talking with one or more of them. I try not to let them see, but I know sometimes they do. Maybe that's okay. But more than anything else, I hold them accountable for everything they say and do. Sadly, this is a new experience for most of these kids. They resist, they rebel, they try to argue (I won't argue with them), they try to lie, snivel, do anything they can to get away from owning what they have done. These kids are absolute master manipulators.... mostly because adults have allowed them to get away with it... because it is easier than laying down the law. That takes work and most parents don't want to be the bad guy or they just don't have the energy to do battle so the kid wins - but then we all lose. I guess my point here is, well, I don't know. I suppose I am saying that there are peole out there - growing numbers of them - that will do you in a heartbeat for no reason whatsoever. I want you to know also that these kids - and their adult counterparts - are really, really concerned about you maybe having a gun. That's one of the reasons most residential burglaries are committed when no on is home - they don't want to break in and be blown away. Believe me when I say these two things to you all: 1) law abiding citizens in possession of guns (not even using them) prevent a substantial amount of crime and 2) even if guns were completely outlawed in the USA, these kids and adult criminals would get guns just like drug users get drugs. Laws, like locks on doors, are for honest, law abiding people. Criminals are criminals because they have no regard for the law if it is inconvenient for them. There has been some talk about holding parents responsible for the crimes of their dependent children. Kakki mentioned that some of these laws are on the books here in California. There are in fact a few such laws on the books I think, but they are never enforced. Of course most of our laws are only mildly enforced - or I should say the penalties for even the worst of crimes are pretty mild. The average length of imprisonment for muderers in USA is well under 10 years. And as for kids and guns, I probably have about 5 kids on my caseload right now that are with me because they were in possession of a gun. Some of these were arrested at school. Often the penalty is to stay home on probation or maybe get locked up for a few months. No big deal to any of them. How serious can we be about making more gun laws when the ones we have are virtually meaningless? As for the politicians who scream for more laws, believe me, they know what I know - they are just pushing your buttons and looking for your support. What a great guy Clinton (or whoever) is - he will stand up to those evil NRA boys!! Politicians know little happens to people who violate the gun laws we now have... and if there were severe consequences for illegal use or possession, it would make an impact, believe me! I don't want to start a new thread - actually, I think we did this a few months ago - but it seems to me we, as a society, have a real hard time holding people accountable for their behavior. We tend to want to let them off the hook or view them as victims. Making excuses for criminal behavior is almost a national pasttime in the USA these days, and it's my opinion that we are contributing to the insanity of our children by not teaching them that we mean business and that they will be held accountable for their actions. That doesn't mean we will stop loving them - God knows most of them don't get enough of that - but we must stop accepting their despicable behavior or it will continue to escalate and we will all pay part of the price for that. Someone else asked about the difficulty of placing these kids in longterm residential care. Well, I work in residential treatment, but there isn't much psychotherapy available for the really disturbed kids. But there really aren't that many of them compared to the larger number of delinquent kids. For those of you who have read this far, maybe you now have a better understanding of why I don't view guns the way you do. I am in it deep everyday and guns are what the media makes most of us see, but that's such a small part of what's going on. Increased restrictions on guns have not had a negative impact on crime anywhere in America. Maybe in other countries, but not in USA. The violence here runs deep - not to sound too corny, but we need a spiritual awakening - something to cause a deep nationwide paradigm shift. The continued attempts to change things on superficial levels hasn't worked and won't work. As Leslie said, we need to take a look at our priorities here and maybe change who we are and how we live our lives and how we raise our precious children. Put me out of work, people! Don ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #187 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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