From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #186 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 27 1999 Volume 04 : Number 186 TapeTree #8 is ready to roll. To sign up go to: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Playing with guns (NJC) [Bill Dollinger ] Re: Bruce Cockburn (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Bruce Cockburn (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: Joni's aura [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: The Mirror of Colorado (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Bonnie and Joni [Gellerray@aol.com] Re: Priorities (NJC) [catman ] NJCRe: my first post [catman ] RE: Re: Bonnie and Joni (NJC) [Mary Pitassi ] Bonnie and radiance (NJC) [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 [Gellerray@aol.com] Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch ["paul tyrer" ] Today in Joni History - April 28 [Today in Joni History ] 100% JC and JMDL Content [Bounced Message ] Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ] Re: colorado, and kids NJC [Ashara@aol.com] Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 [Randy Remote ] Re: Colorado (NJC) [David Wright ] NJC- Colorado/High School [Jenaya Dawe ] Re[2]: Colorado (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 ["Kakki" ] Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Gun Songs (NJC) ["Jerry Notaro" ] NJC Colorado/2nd Amend. [dsk ] Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: NJC--Cockburn/Wilcox/Armatrading [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Gun Songs (NJC) [Ashara@aol.com] COLUMBINE TRAGEDY PLEASE READ AND RESPOND [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch [Randy Remote ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:23:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Playing with guns (NJC) Machine Gun Kelly - James Taylor Saturday Night Special - Lynyrd Skynryd Janies Got A Gun - Aerosmith Bang Bang - Cher (not technically a gun, but i couldn't resist) Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner - Warren Zevon bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:44:10 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Bruce Cockburn (NJC) Jonatha Brooke also notes Cockburn as an influence and uses some of his guitar tunings. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:59:34 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Bruce Cockburn (NJC) Greg wrote: >I actually liked Stealing Fire heaps. I loved the political commentary on >Nicaragua and Rocket Launcher, love Lovers in a Dangerous Time, Making >Contact and (who put that bullet in) Peggy's Kitchen Wall. It's my fave BC album also. I saw him for the first time when he was touring to promote it, and the passion he put into those songs live was wonderful. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:04:30 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Joni's aura - -----Original Message----- From: Tube >Stars like Joni get discovered while they're working cheap (without fancy >lighting) because they naturally emit some quality of physical, sensual or >spiritual beauty that gets them noticed in the first place. >Other equally talented musicians without the same kind of aura are still >working cheap in bars. Interesting thoughts Tube, I wonder would Joni be famous if she had the songs but not the stunning beauty, presence, personality and general aura. I don't know. In the crazy world of showbiz there seems to be no rules, only exceptions. Alanis Morrisette looks a mess but sells millions. I read somewhere that The Cranberries have sold 28 million records. To me it's scary to think that 28 million homes around the world contain records by a group who can't sing, can't play or write, who look crap and have no personality. Maybe it's better just to accept it as one of life's mysteries. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:21:35 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: The Mirror of Colorado (NJC) In a message dated 4/27/99 9:52:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe227@yahoo.com writes: << Any one circumstance would not have pushed these two teenagers over the edge, but working in combination, produced an explosive and ultimately deadly psychic compound. If only we could better understand these dynamics, then prevention I think would be that much closer at hand. >> Don, Amen from me. It's troubling to see everyone focusing on just one thing- bad parenting, firearms, media. It takes a whole lot more than one piece of the pie to create this sort of tragedy. One thing I haven't seen on the list- Since we don't know if these boys ever had psychiatric help, has it ever occurred to anyone that it can be very difficult to keep kids like these in residential treatment? I know there are others on the list who do work with troubled youth and I'd like to hear how hard it is to get long term help for kids who have these kinds of problems. From what I've heard, it's pretty tough. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:33:04 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: Bonnie and Joni In a message dated 99-04-26 19:48:25 EDT, you write: << I didn't watch the Grammys the year Bonnie won for "Nick of Time," unfortunately. However, what I do remember is the look of pure joy and pride on her face as she stood up to clap the year *Joni* won, twice, for "Turbulent Indigo in 1996. She seemed happy as a clam!! Although, IMO, Joni and Bonnie have different strengths as artists, I was quite impressed with Ms. Raitt when I heard her at Milwaukee's Marcus Amphitheatre in the early- to mid-90's. She's an engaging, compelling performer who certainly sang her heart out at that particular concert. >> Mary, o yeah i forgot about bonnie's face when joni won that year. also, i worried that by comparing her to (great not just good) "beer" to joni's "seer" that I might be somehow putting bonnie down...i didn't mean to be at all. I have the greatest respect for her, which, as I think more about it these last couple days, only grows. For me though, for whatever reasons, joni has 'gone in' deeper. but i needn't defend that i am sure--in general here, i'm sure i'd be preaching to the converted... regards, r ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:40:23 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Priorities (NJC) Amy-you give your children time and love. Next to that material things are nothing. I grew up not wanting for anything materially but wanting for everything else. I know which i'd rather have had! bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:40:15 +0100 From: catman Subject: NJCRe: my first post Religion has been around a long time and not only has it not prevented violent crime, but has actually instigated and carried it out! State and Church should be separate. No matter what one belives, one cannot push it onto others. Relious beliefs are a matter for the individual, are not FACT and therfore should not be taught as such. 'God's Word' as you put it, is no such thing. It only has the meaning you give it. I don't believe you have the right to force that idea onto anyone-and my teaching that to children, that is what you would be doing. I have a God of my understanding. It isn't yours or anyone elses, just my own. Which actually is not different in that your God also differes from every other persons because no two people create meaning in the same way. People of the same 'faith' will differ in the meaning they give to it's teachings. Unless I am wrong, church/state has been habnd in hand in the uSA for a long time, if not now. During that time their has been the Vietnam war, appalling race problems, segragation, slavery, gender and sexuality discrimination, as well as crime, high murder rates, the Mafia, rampant child abuse. The list goes on. Needless to say, forced religion did nothing to stop any of that. I think what is going on now could be the birth pains of a new way of living. Having started to get rid of the old dogmatism and rigidity, where people were subjugated to false doctrine, there is bound to be a time of going 'wild' till people settle down and see the light within themsleves and realise they are their own keeper and that their conscience is what has to be lived by-not someone elses. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:54:35 -0500 From: Mary Pitassi Subject: RE: Re: Bonnie and Joni (NJC) Ray, FWIW, I didn't take your post as "putting down Bonnie" *at all.* And, about your beer/seer analogy, don't forget that I live only 80 miles away from the one-time self-proclaimed beer capital of the world (Milwaukee), with probably at least a dozen microbreweries dotting the countryside throughout my state of Wisconsin. In short, I know that there's beer, and there's beer. And if Bonnie's beer, she's one particularly elegant, classy, and marvelously smooth-tasting variety! ;-) Thanks for the reply, and take care, Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:07:36 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: Bonnie and radiance (NJC) With all the talk about radiance now and Bonnie Raitt too, I thought I'd mention again the time I was fortunate enough to be a part of a luncheon with Bonnie and the Indigo Girls here on Capitol Hill. Prior to the luncheon I was only marginally interested in Bonnie's work, my musical tastes generally tending toward the more adventurous. Nonetheless, I was completely disarmed by her (there's no other word for it) radiance in person. She beamed. Her strawberry hair shone and her skin glowed in a way that just doesn't read in her photographs. To top it off, she was so aware of how she could use her celebrity to make people feel special. Knowing that others would feel uncomfortable, she walked right up to everyone and introduced herself simply, "Hi, I'm Bonnie." Witty, charming and generous, she swept me off my feet. I'm now a fan. - --Michael NP: David Bowie, _Low_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:51:37 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 In a message dated 99-04-26 15:55:56 EDT, you write: << This is the first I've read that the lien was placed on her *publishing* royalties. Without making any comments about the legality of this, I must say that this is really, really low-down stuff. No wonder her attitude. >> And not that i disagree, but what about Geffen's "reply" in the same details where joni was interviewed (i think) where he said that she had taken "millions" in advances from the company, against earnings her albums were supposed to make? Not that i trust Geffen frankly because of who he is (a buisness executive), but let's suppose he was telling the truth--or some part of the truth--do you think he has a point at all--a leg to stand on, at all? I sincerely want to know because I don't really know jack about how that business works; I only know that i grew up loving joni! raymond in illinois ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:20:49 +0100 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch Sorry to go on about this again - it's all Bob's fault! Dan introduces himself: <> and Bob replies: That's just because you haven't heard Hejira yet! Paul replies to Bob: I wonder though whether people can move from thinking FTR is album of the century to preferring Hejira... They're very different animals... Does anyone rate FTR and H as equally brilliant - or does someone who likes one like the other a lot less? I mean, I love H, whereas I only love bits of FTR and it comes fairly low on my list - below Blue, TI, LOTC, STAS, C&S, HoSL and NRH. Is it possible to be a Hejira-bunny AND a Roses-queen?! PX By the way, does anyone have any goss on who 'the priest' was in - surprisingly - 'The Priest'? (I really love the drumming on that track...). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:42:27 +0100 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: Worst lyrics Clearly the person who thought up the worst lyrics piece has no sense of irony! Richard got married to a figure skater/ and he bought her a dishwasher and a coffee percolator These are magical lines, as has been pointed out already - profoundly wry in the context of the song. But another inclusion completely misses the point as well! 'Some girls are bigger than others, some girls are bigger than others, some girls' mothers are bigger than other girls' mothers..' - The Smiths Morrissey was mocking the british tabloid press's obsession with breasts. (One of the worst aspects of Brit culture - topless women splashed across the pages of the best-selling newspapers...). M writes: 'From the ice age to the dole age there is but one concern... Oh I say! Some girls are bigger than others! Some girls are bigger than others! some girls' mothers are bigger than other girls' mothers...' Morrissey's lyrics are *deliberately* funny. Unlike Desree's, unfortunately. I'd also like to see Duran Duran included somewhere in that list. Take this line from 'Is there something I should know' (I think) - 'They say you're easy for me - you're about as easy as a nuclear war'. How true. I almost wept when I heard that, remembering the many times I'd screamed that very line down the phone at some recalcitrant lover... PX ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:38:00 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - April 28 1991: (from Wally's bio): [Today], music channel VH-1 aired a "VH-1 to 1" special called "NIGHT RIDE HOME" that was a full half hour of interview, video bits, and teasingly short peeks of Joni playing the instrumental part of "Cherokee Louise." The special also featured a display of quite a few of her paintings from various eras, and many shots of the double exposure photographs that she and Klein had taken in Canada in 1990. - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:41:15 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: 100% JC and JMDL Content From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 02:57:51 -0400 Well, I finally got my VHS copy of "Painting With Words etc." CD Now screwed up my order so I got it locally. Anyway, I think the sound is pretty good. I'm not sure that I like the wisssssspy, hissssssy reverb on the vocals. Or was it the mic itself was sss'y? (Hi Michael P.!) I think she could have brought the vocals up and drums up and taken the guitar down a bit. (Hi Chuck E.!) She's obviously in love with the sound from her VG-8. What did she call it in a tape tree? A modified Stratocaster sound? Then again, the credits on screen say that Joni herself mixed the sound so I can't complain. I noticed the extra chord change in Amelia. Jesus, is Brian Blade a great drummer or what? What a light touch that guy has! Brian Blade for President. I recognized Pearl right away (Hi Pearl W.!). Who else is in the video and at what time? Where's Wally B.? (Hi Wally B.!) Was Julia Roberts there or does she have a twin? (mmmm) Did I see that cowgirl k.d. lang in the shadows? I'm wondering how the NJC-free list is working out. (Hi Steve D.!) Holy cow in the past year, I found a great job, there's a gold release of "Blue", TTT came out, I saw Joni and Margo Timmins, I got the video, and there's a super Tape Tree gestating. (Hi simon!) Oh, yeah, I almost forgot- the new tape tree includes a great performance at "A Day In The Garden" from the sound board. I've heard a tape from the audience at this show: her performance of "Trouble Man" is.... (insert superlative here). np: Memories of the video & Sarah's "Surfacing" album All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** "Time moves swift an' ya know, happiness is the best facelift." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:58:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch On Tue, 27 Apr 1999, paul tyrer wrote: > > Is it possible to be a Hejira-bunny AND a Roses-queen?! Well this queen goes for the Roses! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:15:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: henry diltz exhibit in L.A. The Photography of Henry Diltz at The Sutton Place Art Gallery The Sutton Place Hotel 4500 MacArthur Blvd Newport Beach, California. Sunday April 25 to Sunday May 16. There will be at least 40 of Henry's photographs on exhibit including many of his classics and a few surprises. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:17:09 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: colorado, and kids NJC Bob, the pacifist, writes: << If you choose not to give a boy a toy gun, he'll use a stick, a tennis racket, etc. >> Hi everyone, I'm back! Yes, as the mother of 4 boys, this statement is absolutely true. My kids have even bitten off English muffins to make them look like guns. The whole gun issue is very close to me. My ex-husband is an avid NRA supporter and has an arsenal of guns. He is also an avid hunter and trapshooter. Since I have always disliked guns, you may ask what the heck I was doing with this man for so long, but that is another story. The fact is, they are kept in a locked safe, and because of my (unfortunate) choice in a partner, guns are a part of their life. The way I deal with the issue of toy guns is that I will not spend "my" money on guns of any sort. If they want to have a toy gun, they must buy it with their own money, and it must "look" like a toy (i.e., a squirt gun, or orange-and-purple gun, etc.) There are all too many plastic guns that look an exact replica of a real handgun, and "those" are absolutely forbidden in my house. Also, concerning the issue of blaming parents for the actions of their children: I am a single mother, with many challenges, and many joys. My four boys have *always* been my first priority. I made a decision to bring them into this world, and I take that responsibility VERY seriously. I have been very fortunate to be able to work completely around my children's schedules, which means over the years I have been a room mother countless times, a cub scout den mother for more years than I care to mention, the designated driver/chaperone for countless field trips, and 10 years ago, even helped to found the Montessori school two of my children still attend. I have put aside time for myself so I can be here when my children come home from school, and so I can tuck them in at night. I am not tooting my own horn, but making a point in this: I know first hand that no matter how hard parents work at being the best caring, nurturing, attentive parent they can be, sometimes a child will nonetheless stray off the beaten path. The tragedy in Colorado has effected the entire nation, and possibly the world. As much as it might make some people feel better to blame the parents, or to try to find some other scapegoat for this tragedy, I think that particular direction is heading into dangerous territory. Don Rowe said it all IMHO, "In the end though, we too much like simple solutions to complex problems. We long to find the ONE reason, the single thing that can explain this unthinkable tragedy. The fact is, no such one reason exists. Everything we've been talking about played an integral part in the complex downward spiral that ended in the violence." Stepping down off the soapbox with a hurting heart. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:26:07 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 Gellerray@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 99-04-26 15:55:56 EDT, you write: > > << This is the first I've read that the lien was placed on her *publishing* > royalties. Without making any comments about the legality of this, I must > say that this is really, really low-down stuff. No wonder her attitude. >> > > And not that i disagree, but what about Geffen's "reply" in the same details > where joni was interviewed (i think) where he said that she had taken > "millions" in advances from the company, against earnings her albums were > supposed to make? My understanding is that no matter how much she owes the record company from advances, publishing royalties are supposed to be untouchable, so it sounds like a low blow to me. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:29:41 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Colorado (NJC) Bob writes: > > << You don't think that the tragedy itself has been enough of a > wake-up call already???!!? >> > > Not if we react by doing nothing besides mourning... I guarantee you, Bob, many many parents all over the country (or the world) are already keeping a much more watchful eye on their chidren. They are not doing nothing besides mourning and saying, "Thank heavens my kids'll never do that." Parental responsibility (along with gun control) was one of the central issues of the Colorado discussion here on the list from the very beginning. Don't you think the topic has occurred to some other people as well? And, as I wrote to someone offlist, I don't think every discussion has to result in laws being created to be considered productive. Changing people's minds can do a lot all by itself. Certainly it can change the way the act. And I maintain that some people want to make parents legally liable for their children's actions not to prevent further tragedies, Bob, but because they subconsciously feel cheated that the boys in Littleton shot themselves before they could be brought to justice. I don't remember any widespread discussion that parents be made legally liable in the wake of the Arkansas tragedy last year or the case in the Pacific Northwest. Maybe this is because the boys in those cases were still alive for us to punish (though not as much as some people would have liked)? In the wake of the Arkansas shootings, in which the boys were 11 and 12 years old if I remember correctly, some people wanted to pass laws lowering the age at which juveniles could be tried as adults and given the death penalty (because, due to a grave oversight on someone's part, 11- and 12-year-olds could not be tried as adults in Arkansas at that time, though maybe they can now). One newspaper I saw ran an enormous chart showing how old you have to be to be tried as an adult and put to death in each state. Hmmmm, that's quite a statement of priorities, don't you think? Namely, that our priority in the wake of tragedies like these is to look for someone to punish. I don't think this should be our priority, and I think much of this discussion of legal liability for parents is fueled by the same thing. Though maybe some people argued in the Arkansas case, too, that trying 11- and 12-year-olds as adults would prevent future tragedies. I don't mean to get too worked up over this, but I also see parental liability as impractical or impossible to enforce fairly. Didn't you say, Bob, that the father of one of the boys in Littleton printed out info from his son's website and turned it in to the sherriff's office and called them about it six or eight times? Doesn't that sound like this parent "discharged his liability," so to speak? What else should he have done -- chained his son to a post in the yard (to use your dog-biting analogy)? - --David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:32:05 -0700 From: Jenaya Dawe Subject: NJC- Colorado/High School Catman asked several days ago for reactions from the younger members of the list to the Littleton shooting, but only now am I calm enough to sit down and write my reflections. I graduated, 2 years ago, from a high school very much (from my understanding) like Colubine. I grew up in a small rural suburb of Seattle, population 10,000, all white middle class. I wasn't in the least bit popular, but it really wasn't my concern. However, there were actually several small groups of kids in my high school that sound SO terrifyingly familiar to these two boys in Colorado. The group that comes to mind consisted of probably 4 or 5 young men, led by a senior. They returned from summer vacation with shaved head, all wearing clothing reminiscent of skinheads. (White Tee shirts, suspenders, jeans, big boots, trench coats) and talked extensively about war, the skinhead culture (which they had pathetically inaccurate views of, goth culture and guns. This same leader I actually had to engage in a debate of the 2nd Amendment with several times in classes, and his ideas were nothing less than terrifying. They were all outcasts, highly intelligent young men, all of whom had an interest in computers and if I remember correctly, also dominated the video production classes. They were excellent students, and were known to be very outspoken during classroom discussions. They were teased, harassed, insulted, and treatened constantly, which never once surprised me, they had chosen to not fit in. They had no message to send, nothing to contribute to the community, and they were also not the victims of society. They were just angry, and they communicated that making you afraid of them. (I, for one, was terrified of them, being editor of the high school newspaper, they especially had it out for me.) They weren't really all that strange to begin with, I went to school with most of them for my whole life. They were intelligent, articulate, but socially inept. They tended to be less attractive than the average kid in school, but there was nothing all that special about them, except that they chose to deal with the "not-belonging" by becoming menacing characters that were frightening to some, amusing to others, and pathetic to most. The teachers made no attempt to get to the bottom of their motives, and mostly just joined in with the student body in mocking and isolating them. Were these boys capable of a massacre like the one at Columbine? I say yes. Who would be to blame? The parents, of course, but in no larger degree than the teachers who allowed... caused (?) such violent and anti-social behavior, and those who would have facilitated the boys' access to firearms. Seeing that they were over 18, this includes the government. No, teachers should not be expected to raise their students. *However*, they do have a responsibility to discourage language and behavior that is worrisome or disruptive. They have a responsibility to contact a guidance counselor or administrator, who in turn has a responsibility to contact the parents and make sure that they are aware of their children's behavior and address any concerns. Not to be cliche, but "it take a village..." and it seems like we spent all of our time trying to figure out who's responsible for what instead of all beginning to take responsibility for the nightmarish state of our society. It's not the parent's sole responsibility, it's not the teacher's, it's not the government's, it's OURS. It's time our country, and more so, the world, start thinking like one big *US*, instead of "us", and "them". I'm truly devastated by what's happened, especially as my aunt was a school administrator in the Denver area for 30 years, and I'm frightened, because I have all kinds of family in public jr./sr. high schools, but more than anything, I'm PISSED. I'm angry that this was allowed to happen (and it was literally allowed to happen), and I'm pissed that everyone wants to point fingers, and I'm pissed that it's "my" generation that has to suffer the wake-up call. Hurt, scared, sad, weary, and hopeful... Jenaya ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:04:15 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Colorado (NJC) David responds: <> I know that's true because I'm one of 'em! And I also think/hope there's a "strike while the iron is hot" attitude. Let's face it, in time, the emotions and news coverage will die down and things will return to normal. If there's ANYTHING we can do to help in the effort, let's look at it. <> And I think you're very (W)right - like Elvis Costello wrote "It's nobody's fault, but we need somebody to burn"...(Blame it On Cain) <> I didn't tell that scenario very clearly...a parent had a son who was being targeted and harrased by Harris & Klebold. The parent of the boy being persecuted got the Harris/Klebold web site information and forwarded it to the Sheriff, only to see his efforts die on the vine. He didn't discharge his liability, rather he did his job as a parent and got no support from law enforcement. Hope that's a better job of explaining... The sad truth is that you can do your job as a parent and you're at the mercy of the worst parent out there who doesn't take their job as seriously. But then again, it's one thing when your kid comes home with a bloody nose from a fight at school and another when easy access to guns gets him killed. It seems like we all agree on the mish-mash of issues that come into play here...I appreciate your well-written thoughts on them. Bob NP: John Hiatt, "Sometime Other Than Now" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:10:03 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 Ray asked: > > And not that i disagree, but what about Geffen's "reply" in the same details > > where joni was interviewed (i think) where he said that she had taken > > "millions" in advances from the company, against earnings her albums were > > supposed to make? Randy answered: > My understanding is that no matter how much she owes the > record company from advances, publishing royalties are > supposed to be untouchable, so it sounds like a low blow > to me. Randy is correct. Awhile back we had a few people expertly explain the recoup/royalties system. I particularly recall Fred Simon's explanation as the most complete. I'm not going to try to explain it here again, but basically there are different types of royalties and only one kind that can be used to recoup advances. Publishing royalties are completely different and are untouchable. Joni owns all her publishing, not Geffen. It is putting a lien on her personal property to recoup record advances. Totally improper and most probably illegal in all cases, unless for some reason she assigned those publishing royalties to him, which is not the case. The deal Joni and most artists make is to let the record company apply certain record sales royalties against the negative advance balance. If the record company makes a bad business decision in advancing *too* much money that is their problem and their loss if they don't recoup. Of course, the artist loses, too. But the Geffen label or its successor, will continue to earn money on all the Joni albums because those albums are still selling. When they still are selling 50 years from now the Geffen label/successor company will pick up the money and continue to deduct the proper royalties from any unrecouped balance. In concept, the record company can't go after her personal property now to pay for a potentially bad business decision to advance more money than could be recouped. What makes this all particularly distasteful to me is that record companies are totally aware that this is improper so it makes it seem all the more slimy to me. There are also musician and performing artist unions and other entities that function as semi-legal entities overseeing the protection of the artists and keeping tabs on the record companies. The record companies are constantly made aware of the rules/laws by these entities. There's no good excuse for impropriety. However, none of us know the complete facts on this so this is all basic speculation, but on the face it sounds pretty rotten. I also question his statement of "millions" in advances to Joni. Joni herself has been quoted as saying advances for each of the albums in the 80s (under Geffen label) were around $300,000. That sounds more reasonable. It is also far less than many other well-known artists receive. And she did sell some of those albums so some amounts have certainly been recouped. It makes absolutely no sense that Geffen would have continued to shell out "millions" in advances to her when none of her albums on his label sold very well, nor were they well-promoted, which would indicate not much belief in them to begin with. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:19:38 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch In a message dated 4/27/99 2:44:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul@tyrer23.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Does anyone rate FTR and H as equally brilliant - or does someone who likes one like the other a lot less? >> FTR and Hejira are my two top Joni albums, for different reasons, but I think in part because to me they each demonstrate her biggest "growth spurts" from her previous works. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:28:09 -0400 From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: Gun Songs (NJC) Don't forget Cheryl Wheeler's brilliant Don't Forget the Guns (The Nelsons Ride Along) - -- Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:38:52 -0400 From: dsk Subject: NJC Colorado/2nd Amend. MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > > I must tell you you are wrong about the founding fathers interpretation of > the 2nd amendment. Any historian will tell you tht their intention was to > have individuals bear arms because that was specifically HOW they got a > militia in those days. Exactly, that's how they got a militia IN THOSE DAYS. Don't we now have a militia? Isn't it called the US Army (which exists to protect every State)? Or, if the emphasis remains on a militia maintained separately by each State, State troopers seem pretty well organized, armed and regulated to me. We'll always see this issue very differently, Marcel, because you're viewing the US government as a potential enemy and I'm not. Only tyrants use physical force against their own citizens and there are so many safeguards in our government system against tyranny that I don't worry about a despot getting into power here. As a general comment, I've got to say that I don't understand the hatred directed toward the Federal government by the extreme conservatives I read about, as though the US government is the new "demon." If someone's coming from this point of view, then their arsenal can never be big enough. And a discussion about guns is not possible, because the real issue is paranoia. > I dont know your position on the big A but that is > clearly not in the constitution either by your definition. While the latter > item is relatively new in terms of constitutional interpretation the former > was decided several times and long ago. marcel. The entire Second Amendment is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." That's it. That's all the founding fathers wrote about it. They didn't interpret it (and didn't write out very clearly what they intended; seems to me like there are some phrases missing). What historians say the founding fathers meant to say can be interesting, but we're not living in 1791. And the FF were farsighted enough to know that if these documents were to have any relevance for generations to come, they would have to be looked at and interpreted in the context of each generation's circumstances. One of the ways this is done is by bringing test cases to the Supreme Court. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:39:44 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch <> Well, you said it yourself, it's strictly a personal thing...the difficulty I think is that in Dan's case FTR looms large for him, and he's listened to it countless times and it's been a close friend in times of crisis and all that. Hejira will never be able to fill that same role, just like for me, I didn't hear FTR til the 90's, but I had Hejira next to my heart since '75, so it's on a pedestal too high to knock off. Everyone's situation is going to be different...and of course I was just being funny in the first place! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:54:06 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC--Cockburn/Wilcox/Armatrading In a message dated 4/27/1999 1:09:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, alan@ames.net writes: << I'm in total agreement with the beauty of Bruce Cockburn's work. whenever i can afford a new cd, which isn't too often... i order another of his masterpieces.... what's great is that one cd that you first think is ca ca, later you think is masterful... some really have to grow on you... >> I love his song *If a tree falls*. It is very thought provoking. He is a great talent! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:54:37 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: Gun Songs (NJC) Jerry wrote: << Don't forget Cheryl Wheeler's brilliant Don't Forget the Guns (The Nelsons Ride Along) >> Being a HUGE Cheryl fan, I just can't help sharing this with you from her website: Don't Forget the Guns A sarcastic song that was inspired by an article in the Feb 1989 issue of Time on Popular Assault Weapons. This was right after a man opened fire at an elementary playground with an assault rifle in Stockton, CA. The article claimed the typical American family was fairly well armed. Cheryl then started thinking about her childhood, and the fact that they didn't have any guns in the family. She remembered a vacation they took where they went out west and saw all the tourist sites. The two topics went together and merged into this song. The song portrays the NRA's version of a "typical American family" going on vacation. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lyrics Don'T Forget The Guns Words And Music By Cheryl Wheeler Now let's get the kids and pack up the car Take that vacation we've been waiting for Drive across this country leave our worries far behind Singin' four-part harmony to "sweet adeline" 'Cause I got these books and maps from triple "A" We'll visit friends and sites along the way So bring the bikes and toys and diapers Pay the neighbor's son And call to stop the mail and, honey, Don't forget the guns (Chorus) Now don't forget the guns you know exactly what I mean Bring the pistols, bring the uzi and the old AR-15 We don't look for trouble but by golly if we're in it It's nice to know we're free to blow nine hundred rounds a minute We'll head for Chicago, stop for the night Hope for good weather hope the kids don't fight They've never seen mt. Rushmore and they ought to understand The kind of men who forged our freedom all across this land We'll hike up a trail and ride down a street Stand by Old Faithful and watch her blow off steam When we pack picnic lunches that's not all we'll bring along `Cause we'll be packing 45's case anything goes wrong (Repeat Chorus) Oh riding along we'll follow the sights Over the mountains under the pines Up to boot hill where they got what they gave In the land of the free you've got to be brave (Repeat Chorus) (P) August 17, 1997 Penrod And Higgins Music / Amachrist Music ACF Music Group International Copyright Reserved ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:00:21 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: COLUMBINE TRAGEDY PLEASE READ AND RESPOND - --part1_e37670d0.24577f65_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone is interested...your support would be most apppreciated it! internet virtual memorial to the victims of columbine high tragedy > - --part1_e37670d0.24577f65_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) by air-zd04.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:34:37 2000 Received: from onelist.com (pop.onelist.com [209.207.135.229]) by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id BAA11523 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 8008 invoked by alias); 27 Apr 1999 05:08:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 7988 invoked from network); 27 Apr 1999 05:08:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailsorter-105-1.bryant.webtv.net) (209.240.198.119) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 05:08:13 -0000 Received: from postoffice-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net (postoffice-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.198.35]) by mailsorter-105-1.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.gso.08Dec97) with ESMTP id WAA02928; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production@localhost) by postoffice-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/po.gso.24Feb98) id WAA09065; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:34:33 -0700 (PDT) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQHiRFiiL+J0r0pS700AWTiOeAv4wIUFWt/treLkpyE0Ce+SCcAlCGTNAo= From: PrairieMoon@webtv.net (prairie stock) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:34:33 -0700 (PDT) To: 1_The_Circle@onelist.com, 4windschat@onelist.com, acrystalwaterfall@onelist.com, ravenwings@gorge.net, antieau@fvrl.lib.wa.us, pagan_parents@onelist.com, romannba@modempool.com, lucasw@netcnct.net, WillowWebs@aol.com Message-ID: <27292-37254C69-26746@postoffice-612.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mailing-List: list 4windschat@onelist.com; 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boundary="part1_17402993.24569dae_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 Reply-To: AFindore@aol.com - --part1_17402993.24569dae_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part1_17402993.24569dae_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Tirerim@aol.com From: Tirerim@aol.com Full-name: Tirerim Message-ID: <17402993.24566a3f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:17:51 EDT Subject: Fwd: COLUMBINE TRAGEDY PLEASE READ AND RESPOND To: AFindore@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_17402993.24566a3f_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: Tirerim@aol.com - --part2_17402993.24566a3f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part2_17402993.24566a3f_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: NYFIREMAN3@aol.com From: NYFIREMAN3@aol.com Full-name: NYFIREMAN3 Message-ID: <17402993.2455ceb5@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:14:13 EDT Subject: COLUMBINE TRAGEDY PLEASE READ AND RESPOND To: CapriWax@aol.com CC: Tirerim@aol.com, RPPlumber@Juno.com, LotsaPets@aol.com, Lotsapets3@aol.com, Silligrams@aol.com, Honiee6881@aol.com, Angels678@EMAIL@MSN.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 15 Reply-To: NYFIREMAN3@aol.com internet virtual memorial to the victims of columbine high tragedy Subject: Re: Hejira vs. the roses - the rematch How about this for an oversimplification? FTR is more the emotional statement, Hejira the more cerebral. Of course there are some exceptions in individual songs. This could relate to whether you respond more to lyrics or music. Also, the infamous 'white lines' are known to produce excess thought patterns. Another difference is in song structure. I find more variation and experimentation on FTR. The song structure on Hejira is AAA: long verses with the song title (usually) at the end of the verse, and no bridge or separate chorus, similar to Dylan's "Tangled Up In Blue" and "Simple Twist Of Fate" period songs. Some people seem to interpret this as boring, but it logically serves the wordiness of these songs. If there was a chorus between every verse or two, there would only be two songs on the whole album! I am one of those that holds both of these amazing records in the highest regard, but if pushed, would probably choose FTR. On a scale of one to ten, they both rate eleven with me. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:18:09 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC Colorado/2nd Amend. Whilst on my trip to New England in April 97, I stayed in a motel in West Lebonon. The owner was a woman, probably old enough to be mother. We had a conversation which blew my mind. This woman was moaning about the govt, taxes, and Clinton especially. All normal, I thought. Till she then said it was time'we took up arms and got rid of them'!!!! And no she was not joking. I gathered she felt NH ought to be independant. I don't think I will ever forget that conversation. Mainly because she looked like anyone's mum and not at all like a right wing radical!(whatever they look like ) bw colin ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #186 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! 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