From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #185 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 27 1999 Volume 04 : Number 185 TapeTree #8 is ready to roll. To sign up go to: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Re[2]: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? [RMuRocks@aol.com] Bruce Cockburn (NJC) ["Cupit, Greg" ] Re: Bruce Cockburn (NJC) [Dflahm@aol.com] Danger and opportunity (NJC) ["Cupit, Greg" ] Re: PAX - Colorado (NJC) [dsk ] Re: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? ["Winfried Hühn" ] Joni's aura, office drunks and stunted butterflies ["Tube" ] Re: Re[2]: Joni mention by B Raitt in 1988 (JC & BC) ["Helen M. Adcock" <] Re: Worst Lyrics Ever (according to Music week) ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: my first post [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Colorado (NJC) [Alan ] Re: Colorado/Fiddle and the Drum [Don Rowe ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:34:23 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? In a message dated 4/26/99 5:06:12 PM Central Daylight Time, David.Wright@oberlin.edu writes: << You don't think that the tragedy itself has been enough of a wake-up call already???!!? >> Not if we react by doing nothing besides mourning... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:08:06 +1000 From: "Cupit, Greg" Subject: Bruce Cockburn (NJC) M.Russell wrote: > I know this is a Joni list, but I just am now listening to my first > Bruce > Cockburn album and it is *wonderful* - so beautiful - as beautiful as > Joni. > I will listen to these songs again and again. and Alan wrote: <> Bruce's most recent offering is The Charity of Night and is quite wonderful. I'd recommend all his recent stuff: Dart to the Heart; Nothing But a Burning Light; Big Circumstance; World of Wonders. I actually liked Stealing Fire heaps. I loved the political commentary on Nicaragua and Rocket Launcher, love Lovers in a Dangerous Time, Making Contact and (who put that bullet in) Peggy's Kitchen Wall. There's a Bruce Cockburn discussion list at the Humans web site. For information on how to subscribe go to: http://www.wildheart.org/archives/humans/ Cheers, Greg in Tassie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 04:26:49 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Bruce Cockburn (NJC) This is so coincidental! I was playing in arestaurant tonight and someone who had lived 8 years in western Canada asked me if I could play anything by Bruce Cockburn. That was the first time I'd ever heard his name. Now this post from Marian. Someone also asked me the other night if I'd heard Linda Perhack's (sp?) music. She apparently did only 1 vinyl recording in the 70s. Both these people are spoken of as musically related to Joni Mitchell. The Cockburn requester may come up with a tape for me soon. DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:27:57 +1000 From: "Cupit, Greg" Subject: Danger and opportunity (NJC) Leslie Mixon wrote: <> The Chinese character for crisis is made up of the two ideograms for danger and opportunity. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:11:48 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Priorities (NJC) Leslie writes ... > It's time for a long and hard look at priorities. > What price do we pay when both parents are > working full time and when they are home they > are too busy to notice what's going on in the > lives of their children? > Can we talk? I'd like to give a different perspective about raising children when both parents are working. I feel it is too general to say that in all homes where both parents work, the parents are too busy to notice what is going on in the lives of their children (maybe you're not saying this); however, there certainly is the potential that the kids can get into trouble during the hours alone between when school ends and when the parents get home. My kids are still small (5 and 7) and I'm struggling with how to handle this when they get older. At the moment, they go to an after-school program for two hours, where they do crafts and play outside in the school play area when the weather is nice. At their school, there are also organized after-school activities like soccer, ballet, karate, pottery, dance, and story telling, as well as various school activities like basketball, soccer, drama, etc. When they get a little older, they can participate in some of these activities. In Austria, as a working mother-to-be and then mother, I received two months of paid leave before the birth of each child and two months of paid leave after the birth of each child, for a total of four months of paid maternity leave. In addition to this, I was allowed to stay at home on unpaid leave for an additional ten months for a total maternity leave of two months before and one year after each birth. My kids have been in day care since they were one year old. In Austria, they have a state-run day care program. The people who work in these day care centers are trained in early childhood education and are well-supervised. The children received breakfast and lunch, as well as an afternoon snack - the food was all prepared by an in-house cook and was good, wholesome food - lots of fruits and vegies and dark whole-grain breads. The activities included music, organized outings (zoo, farm, firestation, hospital), exercise, arts and crafts. I really felt so much better about my children going to this kind of day care than I did about hiring someone to look after them in my home and, in many ways, I feel that they had a much more interesting early life than I could ever have provided as a stay-at-home mother. I really love my kids and so does my husband. I don't think they have been harmed by both of us working. I wish I didn't have to work, but that is the reality and we have to cope with it. When I am with them, I try to be really with them - to attend to them - to respect them - also to be firm when I think it's important. They know that we love them. I feel hopeful about how they will turn out. I think the important thing is that the parents care, listen, respect and encourage the talents of their children and this can be done whether or not they both work. But I have to say that it helps a lot that we live in a country that places high value on the well-being of the family (generous maternity leave) and the safety and welfare of the citizens (strong gun control, no tolerance for crime and vandalism). Marian Vienna NP: Man Of A Thousand Faces - Bruce Cockburn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 05:31:53 EDT From: TreyCozy@aol.com Subject: PAX - Colorado (NJC) Hello all.. I'm a new member and have been lurking in the shadows for the past few weeks observing. I'm extremely excited about being a part of the wonder that is the JMDL because I absolutely think a day without Joni is like a day without sunshine! But I, like many of you, have been so shaken by this tragedy in Colorado. Tonight I was offered a ticket to hear Mandy Patinkin sing in his one-man show here in San Francisco. At the end of the show, he openly discussed his profound sadness and disgust with the events of the past few weeks in Kosovo and Littleton. He collected donations for the group PAX. You may remember this is the group that was started by the man whose brother was shot on top of the Empire State Building. I wanted to pass on to this list some pretty amazing facts that were pointed out by both Mr. Patinkin and PAX: - - More AMERICANS were murdered with firearms in the last 4 years than were killed in battle in the 8.5 years of the Vietnam War. - - There are FOUR categories of federal SAFETY REGULATIONS which apply to Teddy Bears made in America. There are ZERO which apply to guns. - - Firearm violence kills MORE CHILDREN than ALL natural causes combined. - - In 1992, handguns were used to murder 36 people in Sweden, 60 in Japan, 33 in Great Britain, 13 in Australia, and 13,495 in the United States. PAX's goal is to rise above partisan politics to bring all Americans together to support common sense solutions to the gun violence epidemic. Sensible gun legislation is part of the answer. PAX does not seek to ban firearms. It only seeks to end firearm violence through measures which the overwhelming majority of Americans, including responsible gun owners, can support. To find out more about PAX, you can visit the website at www.paxusa.org or you can write to them at: PAX 25 E. 10th Street, suite 4B New York, NY 10003 212-677-1124 212-677-1112 (fax) We can make a difference. Look at what we've done with the dilemma of smoking in this country. I think it's safe to say we've made significant headway. We must always believe that WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE THROUGH ACTION! That's my two-cents.. Hopefully my future comments won't have to be about the senseless death of innocent children, but the beauty of Joni Mitchell's music. I thank all of you for the insight you've provided in the past few weeks. Nothing but love, Trey NP: "Paris" by Jonatha Brooke ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 05:52:42 -0400 From: dsk Subject: NJC re: Colorado Don Sloan wrote: > > P. Henry writes about The Founders (the guys who labored to write The > Constitution of the USA) and how they viewed government as a necessary > evil and that the Second Amendment is there to help us protect ourselves > from a governemnt gone mad. I don't care what some Ivory Tower guy or > Supreme Court Justice says, there is no doubt P. Henry is right on this > one. ... (I'm certain there > would be more than a few tea parties if those brave wise souls were here > today!) 1. That "...I don't care what some ... Supreme Court Justice says...." statement really disturbs me. There is no difference between that complete dismissal and a 16-year-old defendant sneering at the judge. 2. Those brave wise souls, as you call them, also established the Supreme Court. 3. The Supreme Court has interpreted that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" means owning and bearing arms as a member of an established State militia, not as an individual. (The one case they heard was in 1939; "gun control" has been an issue for a long time apparently. Otherwise they've let the State courts' decisions stand.) Why isn't the NRA bringing a test case to the Supreme Court if they're so certain of the Constitutional rightness of their position -- that is, that the right to own arms was meant by the Founding Fathers to be an individual's right? Or is it easier to get people to just dismiss what they don't agree with rather than go through Constitutionally-given channels to change things? Seems very odd to me to so passionately hold onto one Constitutional right (such as the one to bear arms) and at the same time completely disrespect the other aspects of the Constitution (such as the Supreme Court). > Do I not have the right to protect my life in my home with a gun when some > crazed whackhead comes breaking through the door? Maybe owning a gun will help you defend your home, but it's more likely you or someone visiting you will be injured by that very gun. And, will one gun make you feel safe, or do you need one in every room? > But I hear no local discussion of making cars illegal or making laws to > keep kids out of cars until they are 21 years old or anything of the > kind. Yet more kids die in auto and auto/alcohol related *accidents* > every year than from gun violence. But of course it is convenient for > most of us to have a car, and so we're willing to see what - 75,000 or > so people a year die in auto accidents? Maybe if they all died on one > day, we would look at it differently. Cars become killing machines if driven by someone who's been drinking, and there was a LOT of discussion for years about this issue. The current laws against driving while intoxicated are relatively new, and are largely the result of intense lobbying by MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Drivers), among others. How many kids (and adults) died before people were willing to submit to stricter laws regarding drinking and driving? (And yes, some people still, and will always, drink, drive and kill people, but not nearly as many as before the public's awareness was raised and laws were changed.) It's time to consider, learn more about, and lobby for gun control, beyond the State or local level. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:02:18 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: PAX - Colorado (NJC) Welcome Trey! Thank you very much for the info about PAX; it's definitely an organization I'll check out. I, too, look forward to the time when most messages are about Joni. It will be interesting to eventually hear how she "distills" this experience. Debra Shea TreyCozy@aol.com wrote: > > Hello all.. > > I'm a new member ...> > To find out more about PAX, you can visit the website at www.paxusa.org or > you can write to them at: > PAX > 25 E. 10th Street, suite 4B > New York, NY 10003 > 212-677-1124 > 212-677-1112 (fax) > > That's my two-cents.. Hopefully my future comments won't have to be about > the senseless death of innocent children, but the beauty of Joni Mitchell's > music. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:57:41 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? > If I'm bit by a neighbor's dog, they're > responsible for not properly containing their animal. Likewise, it would > make sense that they would be responsible for the criminal behavior of > their offspring. I agree with everything you're saying, but I still think > the net result would be an increased sense of parental responsibility. > > Bob I very much wish this would be true, but the experiences here have not been too encouraging. We have such a law here. It reads: "Whoever grossly violates his duty of parental care or education against a person under the age of 16 years and thereby creates a danger for that person to be greatly damaged in his physical or mental development, to pursue a criminal lifestyle or to prostitute himself, shall be subject either to imprisonment of up to three years or monetary fine." To tell you the truth, it is hardly ever applied -- it simply doesn't work. Rememeber that you have to establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt in order to convict somebody. And in a free society, where the government isn't spying into people's households, this is virtually impossible. The parents will say something like this: "sorry, but in order to pay the mortgage on our house, we both have to work all day long, and we can't watch what they're doing in the garage while we're gone... " We're having problems here with illegal immigrants sending their under-criminal-liability-age kids to the railway station in order to sell crack. (= the kids get caught for the 25,000th time, laugh in the policemen's face, say their standard phrase "you can't arrest me because I'm not 14 yet; my parents will sue you and call the TV station if you hold me here for longer than 2 hours!"). And even in such cases, where you smell the intent from 3 miles' distance, the prosecutors don't prosecute, because it would be a complete waste of energy. The law, therefore, is mostly symbolic. Its preventive effects are close to zero. And if you widen its scope, it quickly becomes unconstitutional, because state-free parenting is a constitutionally guaranteed right. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:12:42 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Colorado/Fiddle and the Drum For the past week, this is how I've heard Joni singing this song, and no longer with her younger, innocent voice: You say we have turned Into enemies not earned But we can remember All the good things you are And so we ask you please Can we help you find the peace and the star Oh, my son We have all come To fear the click-ing of your gun. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:24:01 +0200 From: "Tube" Subject: Joni's aura, office drunks and stunted butterflies >i heard >someone say once that having children is like letting your heart climb right >out of your chest and walk around in the world. This I like. It's true. (My kids, boy and girl, aged 6 and 8) I also liked the butterfly parable somebody sent in. **************************************** >There has been one instance where a co-worker had been so >completely out of control for over a years time, that she was truly becoming >a danger to people around her. She would come into work stoned and drunk in >the morning and was starting to knock over huge shelving units in the office >while screaming and sputtering at her subordinates. I ultimately reported >her to the appropriate people because I felt no one should have to be >subjected to this and she was transferred to another office and then quit to >go onto teaching - (argh). But it it was a long time of living with an >extreme situation before I felt enough courage to do something proactive >about it. My wife was recently slapped across the face (hard) by a colleague at work. There were no witnesses, and her superiors told her to just forget about it. The woman who slapped her has been there 35 years, and is widely acknowledged at work as a drunk, an office thief (I'm not talking about paperclips here, she takes colleague's purses) and a slacker. She doesn't have a senior position at all - (my wife has only just joined the company, at the same 'rank' as this older woman), yet nobody does a thing to reprimand, or better still, fire this woman! What does the team think? ************************************** 'Joni's Radiance': I don't doubt that it's true: There's a lot of talk about filmstars looking very ordinary and unappealing in the flesh, with the makeup and the flattering lighting off, but I think that's probably just sour grapes. I used to work at Harrods, the big store in London, so I've seen a lot of superstars face to face, as well as conversed with them. A typical conversation would be: "How would you like to pay sir/madam" "American Express okay?" "That will do nicely madam. That's a nice pen madam" "Thank you, are you done with my card yet?" "Yes madam" "Okay, thanks. Goodbye" "Thank you madam. Good afternoon madam." Not very thrilling conversation, but it did give me time to get a good look at most of them, and I can safely say that most stars are even more stunning in the flesh than they are on film, even without makeup. Some are positively electrifying. Admittedly it's not always the purely physical beauty that is the thing, it's something else - an aura, charm, something in the eyes, or maybe just something in the voice. At Harrods I met a lot of hip, now, happening, Vogue/Rock'nRollin kind of stars, but you know the one who made the deepest impression on me was Julie Andrews - Little Miss butter wouldn't melt in her mouth Apple Pie herself, a little bit wrinkly now, and hair just tending to greyness. But wow! When she asked me to show her some heated pie cabinets, I felt enveloped in a kind of warm glow. Man the PRESENCE she threw out around her was incredible. Some years later three of Sister Sledge came to our church, along with their mum. They came unannounced and just slipped into the congregation like ordinary folk. As my eyes drifted across the congregation, I first noticed them, not because I recognised them, but because there were these three stunningly beautiful people, like goddesses, that had caught my eye. Especially Kim, the tall one, who looked tired and jetlagged during that british tour and was dragging her swaddled little new-born baby around with her like any old travelling mum, but wow, what a presence, what a beauty she had, her long straight nose and her big-hair extensions lending her that timeless cleopatra-like egyptian beauty appearance. After the service we did talk some, they were very warm and down to earth, but nevertheless divertingly ethereal in their collective beauty. Okay, next part - Movie agents and producers, talent scouts and record company people look around specifically for performers with these kind of qualities, because they know it will project somewhat, on screen, on video, on billboard. It's like copying a tape to another tape or medium - if you start with a fuzzy original, the copy will be even worse quality, so the thing to do is begin with the best quality original possible, then your copy will be more sparkly. Ordinary ugly-bugs and personality dullards like us ain't never gonna get picked up off the street by Howard Hughes and made into stars, because any slight beauty that we have will be lost in the grain after the first-generation film-print copy! Stars like Joni get discovered while they're working cheap (without fancy lighting) because they naturally emit some quality of physical, sensual or spiritual beauty that gets them noticed in the first place. Joni's beauty is not conventional beauty, but it is stunning. The aura, halo, whatever it is that you noticed when you met her the other day was the same aura that got her noticed in the first place and helped her to make a favourable impression with all the people she would need to impress to kickstart her career. Other equally talented musicians without the same kind of aura are still working cheap in bars. This observation is in no way a disparagement of the apparant triumph of glamour over talent. I'm simply saying, 'that's entertainment'. The market always favours the beautiful. And furthermore, as i've inferrred above, it's not necessarily only physical beauty that gets people noticed - Some of the stars I met were not conventionally beautiful, but they were fascinating or interesting, riveting my attention in other ways. I'm a straight man and am not sexually atracted to men, but I have met many men who I considered beautiful and fascinatingly attractive to watch and listen to. This is just another example of the 'aura' thing. Call it star-quality, whatever, some people have it, some don't. I also met Germaine Greer in Harrods (I sold her a vaccuum-cleaner.) She was approaching middle-age then, and knowing her reputation as someone who does not suffer men gladly, I as a shy 24 year-old boy was somewhat intimidated by her, especially as she is tall (and has enormous hands!) I was not physically atracted to her, but I did have one of the most fascinating and fulfilling conversations with her that I've ever had in my entire life (about design and ergonomics). She fascinated me and I felt I could have talked all day and all night with her. Now, I take every opportunity to watch her on TV or read her newspaper articles, interviews etc. Here again, an example of star quality, charisma, call it what you will, but doubtless it is this appealing 'X-Factor' in celebrities that helps them enter, rise and succeed in their chosen fields, as well as the actual talent they possess or the hard work they put in. If Joni Mitchell appeared to have an aura when you met her, it'll be because she DOES have an aura. Never be ashamed to think it. Tube. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:45:37 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Playing with guns (NJC) > While we're on the subject, wonder how many song titles mention guns? Machine Gun Kelly - James Taylor. Carole King has also mentioned guns in two of her songs: Smackwater Jack - "Now, Smackwater Jack, he bought a shot gun. Cos he was in the mood for a little confrontation". And Goat Annie - "Then she leveled her 12-guage with a blast she sent 'em packin', Go, Goat Annie." Not that I want to start a thread about song lyrics (as opposed to titles) mentioning guns, ('cos we'll be here forever!), but I thought it was interesting since Carole's two songs are so different in meaning (IMO). Smackwater Jack is a warning to stay away from people with guns, and Goat Annie is praise for a woman defending her land with a gun - kind of interesting, I thought! Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:50:18 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Joni mention by B Raitt in 1988 (JC & BC) >that won ANOTHER Grammy for her "I'm in the Mood". Oh, and btw, "Longing in >Their Hearts" was the next disc after "Nick of Time" and that was superb as >well, her covers are to die for Sorry - just had to correct you (since I love Bonnie about the same as Joni!) - Luck of the Draw was the album after Nick of Time! Bonnie has covered some great songs over the years, but I always think of them as hers, since she doesn't really cover really well-known songs, except "Burning Down the House" on Road-Tested - almost better than Talking Heads did it themselves! And I totally agree, Fundamental is a GREAT album - highly under-rated! Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:17:39 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Worst Lyrics Ever (according to Music week) >UK trade rag Music Week have included some familiar lyrics in >their "worst ever" survey. >'Richard got married to a figure skater >and he bought her a dishwasher and a coffee percolator' - anon This annoys me, not because I think the lyrics above are wonderful, but because they're taken entirely out of context! Of course they look silly when you take out one or two lines of the song. There are lots of lines in songs (if not most of them!), which taken out by themselves sound silly, for example "He sat down on a river rock and turned into a toad". Sounds a little silly as it stands, but when you here Carole King sing "Tapestry", you get the full impact! Another example, "If you use this shampoo, true love will come to you", or "Life would be easy if I had that new appliance. Food processors for all of us." - both sound pretty inane, but if you listen to "The Reoccurring Dream" you understand that it's sarcasm at it's best! I'm a little surprised no one else has responded to this, or is it just too obvious to comment on! Helen NP - Bonnie Raitt - You (one of my favourite Bonnie tracks) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:14:10 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Fwd: [NJC] Answer to Curbing School Violence May Lie in Lessons... - --part1_b1b4b83e.24570412_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part1_b1b4b83e.24570412_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: AOLNews@aol.com From: AOLNews@aol.com Full-name: AOL News Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:02:08 EDT Subject: Answer to Curbing School Violence May Lie in Lessons... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Reply-To: AOLNews@aol.com To: undisclosed-recipients:; Answer to Curbing School Violence May Lie in Lessons Learned by Business HAMILTON, Ohio, April 27 /PRNewswire/ -- Workplace violence experts are noticing a chilling similarity in school shootings, in the wake of last week's rampage at Columbine High School, in Littleton, Colorado. Not compared to previous school shootings, but to acts of violence in the workplace. According to Christine McGovern, who heads up the workplace violence program at Ohio Casualty Group, schools have been struggling to understand the ugly trend ever since Luke Woodham shot nine students at Pearl High School in Mississippi 1-1/2 years ago. But McGovern points out that corporate America has been grappling with this phenomenon for more than a decade now. Have they learned lessons that could help educators manage their own workplaces? You bet. "On the surface, school violence may seem dramatically different than workplace violence," McGovern said, "but what strikes me are the number of similarities." McGovern says that whether the violence occurs in a school or a workplace, the pattern is basically the same. "In one instance you call the perpetrator a student and in the other you call them an employee," she said. "In business, victims are usually co- workers; in schools the victims are fellow students. And instead of teachers getting caught-up in the crossfire, in the workplace it is supervisors. Otherwise, the situations are identical." According to McGovern, who is Workers' Compensation Marketing Manager at Ohio Casualty Group, other similarities hold true, as well. These include the gender of the shooter (male) and personality traits such as being a loner, not fitting in and a fascination with weapons. And there are usually warning signs that schools, like businesses, should be on the lookout for. In fact, there are times when the only difference she finds are the ages of those involved. "What we're seeing in schools looks like the kind of once highly publicized 'getting even' attacks that used to occur only in the workplace. But companies that have taken the threat of workplace violence seriously have made great strides in addressing the problem," McGovern said. "By looking at what they did and how they did it, school officials may learn something valuable from business." With so much in common between school and workplace incidents, McGovern hopes educators can take a page from actions American companies have taken to curtail and control workplace violence. These include five components that she calls fundamental to effective violence prevention programs. They are: * Securing management commitment * Preparing and distributing of a written policy * Having procedures in place for reporting and handling threats * Training supervisors (teachers) and employees (students) on warning signs and conflict resolution * Reviewing existing safety and security measures With both the workplace and schools becoming more violent, the need to increase the emphasis on prevention is obvious. One million workers become victims of workplace violence every year, and one out of every six violent crimes committed in the United States happens at work. A 1994 National School Boards Association (NSBA) survey indicated that 82% of surveyed schools reported increasing violence over the preceding five years. Also in 1994, the Society for Human Resource Management found that almost 50% of all businesses reported at least one violent occurrence, up from 33% in 1988. In response to the problem, Ohio Casualty Group developed a workplace Violence Prevention Program, designed to help businesses both deal with and prevent workplace violence. Companies or individuals can learn more about combating workplace violence by calling Ohio Casualty Group at 1-877-397-CALL. The Ohio Casualty Group was founded in 1919 and is headquartered in Hamilton, Ohio. Ranked among the top 40 property-casualty insurers in the country, the company provides insurance for businesses, homes and autos in 38 states. SOURCE Ohio Casualty Group CO: Ohio Casualty Group ST: Ohio IN: INS SU: 04/27/99 07:00 EDT http://www.prnewswire.com To edit your profile, go to keyword NewsProfiles . For all of today's news, go to keyword News. - --part1_b1b4b83e.24570412_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:34:39 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: Joni mention by B Raitt in 1988 (JC & BC) Helen said: <> Uhhh, yeah, Helen, I knew that, I was just checking to see if anyone was paying attention...;~) Thanks for picking up on the blooper, I guess as a Bonnie fan I just don't Raitt... Bob The Who, "You Better You Bet" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 05:43:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Worst Lyrics Ever (according to Music week) - --Helen M. Adcock wrote: > > >UK trade rag Music Week have included some familiar lyrics in > >their "worst ever" survey. > > >'Richard got married to a figure skater > >and he bought her a dishwasher and a coffee percolator' - anon > This really pisses me off. Not so much the disrespect for the lyrics, as Helen points out, taken out of context, but the lack of acknowledgement of the author of those lyrics. Who died and left the editors of Music Week as the final word on anything?? In a real pissy mood this morning, Brian === "No paper thin walls No folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:45:23 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Guns (NJC) Kakki schrieb: < I think it is appropriate for them to want to have a gun - they have a real need to protect themselves, their children and sometimes their livestock against the ever-present threat of bears, mountain lions, wolves, and also wildlife of the two-legged variety.>> Kakki, my thought would be that the FIRST step is eliminating the sale of the TEC-9's, Uzi's, etc. that are definitely NOT legitimate hunting weapons but purely assault weapons. I agree that 100% ban is not very realistic, but we can start by getting rid of as many of these higher tech killing machines... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:02:51 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: colorado, and kids NJC Heather fears: <Is this how these thing start??? I just don't know what to think.....>> Heather, there's a great photo of me about three years old, in my pajamas, rifle in hand (toy), holster with pistols, army helmet hanging on my little crew-cut head - like all boys, playing with toy guns was a part of growing up - when I was a little older I remember playing "war" on a regular basis, arguing over who shot who first. I was NEVER tempted to play with real guns, and am as big a pacifist as you'll ever find. My parents did their job. If you choose not to give a boy a toy gun, he'll use a stick, a tennis racket, etc. Actually, the reverse may be true - to totally prevent the natural tendency of children to play cowboy (even Joni wanted to ride in the Posse when she was a little girl), to build elaborate weapons out of Lego's, etc. creates a kind of arrested development that manifests itself later when youth can have actual access to the real thing. In my case, the only time I play War now is when I hear "Cisco Kid" OR "Slippin' into Darkness"...:~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:12:43 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? Winfried schreib: <> But again, we don't know how many parents are encouraged to be more responsible because of the presence of the law, so their kids DON'T act out, so they ARE prevented - there's *no way of knowing* how many cases this applies to...how many people DON'T drink & drive because the law EXISTS, because punishment is a possibility? We have no way of knowing! Surely there are people who fall into this category (me for one). Likewise, don't you think there are parents who will keep closer tabs on their kids if there are consequences for their destructive behavior? Sure they will, but we have no way to track the statistic, so it's very easy to have the misconception that the preventive effects are close to zero... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:32:07 EDT From: Clancyhart@aol.com Subject: Re: Priorities (NJC) i think that both don and jody's posts about their decision not to have children were right on target, for them. i made a decision, too...to not buy into this american notion that in order to be good parents we have to have two cars in the garage, a solid savings account, two incomes...i have three kids, and i have stayed home with them. i am a massage therapist, and when i started working recently---my youngest child is four--my husband arranged his schedule to be home with the kids while i worked. but as a result of my decision not to work, we have fallen pretty far below the median income in this country. i have never had a new car, we live in a tiny house in the country, and my kids don't have rooms stuffed with toys and they don't take ten different lessons. usually we take hikes in the afternoons, or work in the garden. i think what i'm trying to say is that it is a matter of priorities. my kids will have to work their way through college--but i don't think that's a tragedy. they save up their own money to buy most of their toys. that's okay, too. my best friend and her husband decided not to have kids, and it was right for them. i decided to, and it was right for me. and parents who both work and put their kids in daycare are trying to do what's right for them, i assume. nobody sets out to fail as a parent--of that i'm sure. i have endured endless criticism for my own decision, but it feels right in my heart. just as don and jody feel right in their heart. the answers aren't easy, or obvious. i guess i didn't have a point here--just wanted to present a different perspective. amy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:33:15 EDT From: Kleronomos@aol.com Subject: my first post hi. my name is Dan, and I think Joni is one of the greatest artists of our time. I'm quite an anomaly, though, as I haven't even heard any of her albums since C&S, but I'm looking forward to hearing them for the first time. (the reasons for this are complex and would require a REALLY long post) I think I'll start with Hejira (based on what I've read here) and then the Herbie Hancock album. I've seen Joni perform live twice: once in the 70s in a little theater in Southern Calif, and then again last November in NYC (with Bob Dylan). I have been reading this list for about a week now (not all of the posts... there's such a volume of them, I can't keep up!) and I suppose, not surprizingly, there's quite a diversity amongst her fans. A few snippets from me: I would vote Joni's For The Roses as album of the Century, There are few real artists in "the arts." In our times, musically, I'd include Dylan, CSN&Y, Hendrix, Joplin, Raitt, Coltrane, Holiday, (and others, but the list is pretty short) Wally's web site and Sue's TAB page are fantastic. Thanks for the great work there. I spent hours reading the "testimonies" of the participants of the Day in the Garden concert. What fantastic, heartmoving stories! The music at Sue's site has helped get me back into guitar again after many years, and I've performed several of Joni's songs at Open Mic nights around here (This Flight Tonight, For The Roses, Cold Blue Steel..., Case of You, Both Sides..., Circle Game, Urge for Going) I want to do "Woman of Heart and Mind" but I'm a guy, and it doesn't work! But I'm working with a singer on that one. It would be easier to read all these posts if there wasn't so much NJC in them, but of course, we all care about other things as well, and in particular, the recent shootings have caused a lot of hearts to hurt, and wonder what can be done. Everyone (Joni fan or not!) has strong feelings about this tragedy. Personally, I subscribe the the old adage "guns don't kill people; people kill people". I have a concealed carry permit, my 3 teen girls all know how to use my 9mm semiauto pistol, and they all know how to respect the damage it can cause. There are free handgun courses available at many clubs throughout the country. The one I took had about 30 guys in it and about 45 women, and it was fantastic, with emphasis on safety and responsibility. It included a police officer's advice on the legal use of deadly force. Where states licence citizens to carry concealed weapons, crime goes DOWN, and everyone benefits, whether they choose to carry or not (it's a very personal decision). You may remember that it was a teacher with his own gun who apprehended without incident, a boy who did one of the shootings a few months ago. We ALL want to do SOMETHING, and so gun control becomes a fresh topic all over again (leave it to Clinton to capitolize on the situation to push his agenda). But the problem is insanity. That's right. If we don't help kids from going insane, they're gonna find a way to wreak havoc. They'll find weapons to do it with, gun control or not. Shall we ban deer rifles? I know you all appreciate the power of music to move the soul. Have you listened to Marilyn Manson? (a favorite of our most recent shooters). It's "censorship" to legislate against freedom of expression, so we don't do it, but we must do SOMETHING, so take away the guns, right? We can't pass laws against the "Gothic" lifestyle that Manson pushes, Dungeons and Dragons, depraved violence in film, but we have to do SOMETHING, right? Consider this: we as a country have systematically pushed God out of the schools in the name of "separation of Church and State". When our forefathers wrote those words, did they mean "separation of God and State"? Not at all. Just read the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. These people realized that without God, there would be no worthy or useful State. "with firm reliance on Divine Providence, we pledge our lives.. fortunes... sacred honor..." "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." Push God out of the schools? What's gonna happen? We shouldn't be surprized. The Mansons of the world are ready to rush in and fill the spiritual void. I disagree with Joni's line "guru books, the Bible... only a reminder that you're just not good enough..." (the next line is something else, though! and delivered so meaningfully!). I know many of you have found real answers in God's Word, as I have. As I said, there is quite a diversity among us. Thanks for listening to my two cents. Feel free to email me if you wish.... I may miss your response if you post. ((((((((( you all )))))))))))) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:51:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: The Mirror of Colorado (NJC) In the spin-flurry analysis of Colorado, I finally heard someone make a reasonable observation. Bill McClellan, an old-school grump print journalist has noticed that this tragedy has held up a mirror. And in it, individuals seem to see a reflection of their own "pet cause" ... gun control, parental responsiblity, the deteriorization of the public school system, violence on TV/in movies. I think this has been very true of our own discussions, even as they continue. In the end though, we too much like simple solutions to complex problems. We long to find the ONE reason, the single thing that can explain this unthinkable tragedy. The fact is, no such one reason exists. Everything we've been talking about played an integral part in the complex downward spiral that ended in the violence. Truman Capote says "In Cold Blood" that the perpetrators would not have committed the murders on their own, but that together, their rage fed and grew within one another until it exploded. I think this is very true for Colorado. Any one circumstance would not have pushed these two teenagers over the edge, but working in combination, produced an explosive and ultimately deadly psychic compound. If only we could better understand these dynamics, then prevention I think would be that much closer at hand. Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:59:42 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: my first post Dan introduces himself: <> That's just because you haven't heard Hejira yet! :~) <> Only if God is pushed out of the HOME as well...let the schools do what they do best, (like teaching us how to spell "surprised") ;~) Welcome Dan! This was quite a meaty first post - and don't worry, we do talk Joni a lot but right now this ugly Colorado thing is looming in the foreground - in the meantime, get out there and get those Joni records! Bob, also God-fearin' but not gun-totin' in South Carolina... NP (Now Playing) John Hiatt, "I Can't Wait" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:10:18 -0500 From: Alan Subject: Colorado (NJC) As I've observed before on other complex issues, the best, most rational and multi-faceted discussion I've encountered anywhere on this subject, has been right here. You all have hit so many nails right on the head... Somebody talked about the "soullessness" of suburbia. I remember feeling that as a teenager, but now, as an adult, I wonder. I don't think I needed more religion... As an adult, I look back at that emptiness and realize it was a kind of narcissism. I expected too much of the world. I think a great deal of crime in this country stems from people's feelings of "deserving more" and then lashing out at the world because more wasn't given to them. IMHO, the answer involves walking the fine line between lowering expectations (making them reasonable, without crushing their dreams), and enriching their lives in non-material ways. A tall order. I have an eight year old Son, and only one chance to get it right. (Amy said, "having children is like letting your heart climb right out of your chest and walk around in the world." Perfect.) Guns; I would vote to ban them. Newsweek magazine ran a special issue a few years ago, where they listed everyone in the U.S killed by a gun over one week, had pictures of most of them, as well as the circumstances of their death. Less than 5% were instances of "good guys killing bad guys." The vast majority were crimes, suicides and accidents; most of the latter were children. To those who chant NRA's mantra "guns don't kill people, people kill people" I reply, "nuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people." So, should we all have our household nukes? Crazy. If guns were banned, alternate non-lethal protection technology would evolve rapidly. The Parents: Yes, absolutely, they should have been more involved; they should have known. But, what are we going to do, sterilize people until they can pass a parenting test? Never happen. Wouldn't do any good anyway. (Those of us who have been divorced know all too well how somebody can say all the right things, but then not follow through.) In our culture, most kids in their late teens have a great deal of autonomy. I can't quite bring myself to say the parents, in this case, are "responsible" for what their children did unless they did know about it, and did nothing. My $0.02 Alan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:13:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Rowe Subject: Re: Colorado/Fiddle and the Drum - --- dsk wrote: > For the past week, this is how I've heard Joni > singing this song, and no > longer with her younger, innocent voice: > > You say we have turned > Into enemies not earned > But we can remember > All the good things you are > And so we ask you please > Can we help you find the peace and the star > Oh, my son > We have all come > To fear the click-ing of your gun. > Yes, and equally chilling in the Colorado context ... Cheap guitars, eye shades and guns Aimed at the hot blood of being no one ... Don Rowe _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #185 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. 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