From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #183 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, April 26 1999 Volume 04 : Number 183 TapeTree #8 is ready to roll. To sign up go to: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Peter Gabriel, Anne Sexton, Laurie Anderson (NJC) [M.Russell@iaea.org] NJC: Colorado -- Don's views [Kate Tarasenko ] Bruce Cockburn (NJC) [M.Russell@iaea.org] [NJC] Fwd: Clinton, NRA Agree on One Point [MDESTE1@aol.com] NJC Colorado ["Tube" ] Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) [Bill Dollinger ] RE: Re: the History of 'Twisted' (NJC) [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Joni mention by B Raitt in 1988 ["Eric G. Postel" ] Re: virus warning - CIH aka. Chernobyl NJC [Bounced Message ] Today in Joni History - April 27 [Today in Joni History ] Re: weird story of the day - NJC ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? [David Wright ] Re: Playing with guns (NJC) ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: Playing with guns (NJC) [jan gyn ] collaboration wish [jan gyn ] Re: weird story of the day - NJC [catman ] Re: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? [catman ] Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) [Vince Lavieri ] Re: Re[2]: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? [David Wright Subject: NJC: Colorado -- Don's views Don wrote: "...But please apply some critical thinking to this issue. How successful have we been in our multi-billion dollar decades-long war on drugs?" I don't see the connection. Drugs ARE illegal; proposing gun bans is a different fight involving different issues. For the record, I think the "drug war" has been a sham, and countless articles have been penned on the subject. "...Do you think criminals respect gun laws?" No, which is another good argument for gun bans. "...But I hear no local discussion of making cars illegal or making laws to keep kids out of cars until they are 21 years old or anything of the kind." Making cars illegal??? "Please apply some critical thinking to this issue," indeed! Some states actually ARE looking into raising the age at which teenagers can obtain permits and licenses, because teenage mortality rates behind the wheel have been rising each year. In addition, some state legislatures are also looking into requiring drivers ed., as many states currently require only that the driver's test be passed. Anyway, this is a poor analogy, IMO. The primary purpose of cars is transportation. Guns are used for killing, period. Teens (and adults) getting behind the wheel, drunk or not, and driving recklessly, cannot be reasonably compared to the deliberate act of hunting down people with guns. "...still wondering how we can be stunned by Littleton while at the same time pouring gasoline on the raging fires in Yugoslavia." Just because we're discussing Littleton doesn't mean we're unmindful of Kosovo. I, for one, don't support the bombing in Yugoslavia. And I remain stunned in Colorado... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:57:16 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Bruce Cockburn (NJC) I know this is a Joni list, but I just am now listening to my first Bruce Cockburn album and it is *wonderful* - so beautiful - as beautiful as Joni. I will listen to these songs again and again. Marian Vienna NP: The Thirteenth Mountain from "Bruce Cockburn" ca. 1970 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 08:36:18 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: [NJC] Fwd: Clinton, NRA Agree on One Point - --part1_98f4f58.2455b7c2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-04-26 01:29:35 EDT, AOL News writes: La Pierre is head of the NRA and was appearing on "Meet the Press". His statistic also printed in the New York Times is indicative of the fact that gun laws dont stop crimes.leniency against those who get cought breaking laws is just as much a factor. << But officials first need to get serious about prosecuting and expelling kids who show up at schools with guns, he said. Of 6,000 such incidents in the past two years, there have been only 13 prosecutions, LaPierre said. >> - --part1_98f4f58.2455b7c2_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: AOLNews@aol.com From: AOLNews@aol.com Full-name: AOL News Message-ID: <98f4f58.245553bf@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 01:29:35 EDT Subject: Clinton, NRA Agree on One Point MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Reply-To: AOLNews@aol.com To: undisclosed-recipients:; Clinton, NRA Agree on One Point .c The Associated Press By JIM ABRAMS WASHINGTON (AP) -- Finding a rare point of agreement, the Clinton administration and the National Rifle Association both would prohibit juveniles who commit violent crimes from ever owning a gun. Otherwise, they have major differences on how to prevent a recurrence of last week's school shootings in Littleton, Colo. President Clinton is backing several gun control measures while the NRA says the answer is to more strenuously prosecute those who violate existing laws. ``The NRA and other pro-gun organizations need to support the administration's efforts ... to put reasonable regulations on the use and the possession of guns,'' said Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder, Justice's No. 2 official. Among those initiatives, he said, are extending the Brady Law, which requires background checks for gun buyers, to bar juveniles who have committed violent crimes from owning a gun. Speaking on CBS' ``Face the Nation,'' he also said there is a ``need to deal with adults who make guns available to kids.'' President Clinton, in his Saturday radio address, said he would push for legislation that would crack down on gun shows and illegal gun trafficking, prohibit violent juveniles from buying guns and close loopholes that let juveniles own assault rifles. The shootings at Columbine High School in Littleton, as with similar school killings in the past, have spurred the demand for tougher gun-control laws. Dozens of gun-control bills are now pending in Congress, including a trigger lock bill actively supported by the administration, but the Republican majority has been reluctant to impose new restrictions on gun owners. NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre, also appearing on CBS, said the best approach was to fully prosecute people, including juveniles, who break existing gun laws. ``When you let bad people go home they do bad things.'' LaPierre agreed that ``violent juveniles that commit violent crimes with guns should forever be prohibited from owning a gun.'' But officials first need to get serious about prosecuting and expelling kids who show up at schools with guns, he said. Of 6,000 such incidents in the past two years, there have been only 13 prosecutions, LaPierre said. He said NRA support for state laws allowing people with permits to carry concealed weapons was ``simply off the point'' from the school shootings. People who apply for permits are not the type to commit crimes, he said. In the Littleton case, Colorado Gov. Bill Owens repeated Sunday that adults who supplied the weapons to the two suspects or knew they had guns could be charged as accomplices, but Justice Department officials urged caution. Attorney General Janet Reno, on NBC's ``Meet the Press,'' would say only that it was important to identify those responsible for the student suspects having guns and what the parents knew before taking ``appropriate steps.'' Holder added that the charging adults because they ``should have known'' that children had guns was a ``dangerous thing.'' AP-NY-04-26-99 0128EDT Copyright 1998 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without prior written authority of The Associated Press. To edit your profile, go to keyword NewsProfiles . For all of today's news, go to keyword News. - --part1_98f4f58.2455b7c2_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:00:27 +0200 From: "Tube" Subject: NJC Colorado >This concept of having a gun in your house to protect yourself from some >"crazed whackhead" is one of the roots of this whole mess. ________ Yes, I second that, most definitely. I'm sorry but I think this 'right to bear arms' thing is such a neanderthal concept. If we imagine such constitutional ideology free course in any culture, then one might imagine a technologically backward society (say, cavemen) declaring that they had 'the right to keep a club made from an elephant's thighbone and beat the crap out of anyone they feel threatened by'. That's what it boils down to. It's so primitive. Worse, given the chance of getting off a well aimed shot, a gun is almost guaranteed to kill. That's what it's designed to do. It's really not a very 'reasonable' solution for dealing with your crazed whackhead. On the other hand, primitive laws tend to get framed by primitive societies. The USA is a very primitive society, the most primitive on earth in fact. It is a nation barely 200 years old in official constitution. Though the American fathers were Europeans with a long cultural history, the whole point of the new nation they founded and built was that it would be a completely fresh start, a breakaway from traditional creeds and constitutions. A pragmatic, 'let it rip' constitution was quickly drawn up for the new union in the new world, and American society began evolving from that point. (after wiping out the native americans and any ancient wisdom THEY may have wished to impart to the new settlers) HEY, IT'S A YOUNG NATION FOLKS! This Colorado stuff and other related incidents are just growing-pains that older societies back in europe grew out of hundreds of years ago. Sure we still have wars back here in Europe, even senseless ones, but by and large our children don't kill each other. Some may consider it, but they don't have the access to the quick-knockdown weaponry that your kids do - This allows them the breathing-space to think twice about where their build-up of anger is leading them. It's gonna take another two or three hundred years before America settles down into a nation that knows itself and is happy with itself. Unfortunately this may never happen, as America, unlike all other primitive societies has the technology to kill itself before it can learn how to live with itself. Viewed against the timeline of world history, the founding and developmant of the USA as a nation is a highly unusual occurence. Unique in fact. In summary then, America has violence problems, not because it's a more advanced society, but because it's a more backward society, though one which is unusually equipped with the most advanced technology and civil freedoms of any other nation. America has always run before it could walk. On the world stage of history, America is only a teenager who THINKS he's grown up, because he's got his first job, owns an Apple powerbook and carries a gun stuffed in his Levis (for snakes 'n' stuff). This sounds like an insult I know, but it's really meant as a word of encouragement - Things will get better Stateside in a few hundred years. As you can see, I'm against Marcel and his defence of the right to bear arms. But I am with him when he says that the time for weeping and comfort-counselling is not after the shootings, but before it, waaaaay before it. The 'anything goes' culture has reigned for too long, and it does deny society an early warning signal for events like the Colorado shooting. Those who hold conservative Christian beliefs are not the slightest bit surprised when these things 'come to pass', for we believe that the heart of man is desperately wicked and nothing is beneath him to conceive sooner or later. It is not enough to make loving your neighbour the main priority. The first commandment is to love God. On these two commandments hang all the law. Get these two in the right order and the rest will fall into place. I try to make my day-to-day moral decisions based on the method 'What would Jesus Think?' Crass, yes, but I find it helpful in a world where nobody else is willing to give a me a straight answer for fear of offending my 'certain inalienable rights' to believe what I want to believe. Make the constitution of your nation your creed and it will fail you sooner or later. "When the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another" Romans 2:14-15. If people are happy to excuse the Trenchcoat Mafia as being only the sad products of their society and therefore not wholly responsible for their actions, then start changing the society you live in. And as Michael Jackson once sang, that starts with the man in the mirror. I'm gonna quit now before I get wound up into a sermon, which would be getting too Off-Joni-Topic and I don't wanna pollute the list too much, but if anyone wants to continue this with me off-list, they're welcome. Love, Tube ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:11:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) On Fri, 23 Apr 1999 MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > The last time I heard that stuff about "no more war" it was from Bill Clinton > in 1969. Actually, I was refering to Tea Leaf Prophesies, which is on Chalk Mark In A Rainstorm. bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 07:46:03 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Priorities (NJC) Leslie writes ... >It's time for a long and hard look at priorities. What price do we pay >when both parents are working full time and when they are home they are >too busy to notice what's going on in the lives of their children? > >Can we talk? > Sure we can, afterall, this is the jmdl! These are actually several of the prime reasons which factored into our decision not to have children. We looked at the kind of life we wanted for them ... and realized that providing it would mean we wouldn't be there much of the time, as we both have careers. It wasn't a selfish decision, just an honest one. Fact was, dual income would have become a necessity with the addition of kids, and the attendant hopes and dreams that would come with them. But much more important than money, of course, was time ... time we would not have, nor would be likely to make consistently, to provide the supporting, nuturing environment we felt essential to successfully creating a family. Now I'm sure that I'm going to be roundly chastised for this, but I feel that my wife's and my decision was perfectly responsible. At least we went in with our eyes open ... fully aware of the consequences of going either way ... and decided that we just weren't parental material. I wish more people could see themselves with this same objectivity and clarity. Letting the wind carry me -- Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 07:51:47 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: Re: the History of 'Twisted' (NJC) Joseph Palis Wrote <<>> _Surprise_ It's a thoroughly underwhelming album notable only for the classic "Gypsy Woman." Run past this one in your haste to acquire her essential _Storyteller_, one of the best dance albums I've ever heard. - --Michael NP: Indigo Girls, _Indigo Girls_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:13:50 -0400 From: "Eric G. Postel" Subject: Joni mention by B Raitt in 1988 Howdy everybody, I was listening to a recording of a concert by Bonnie Raitt in Houston TX on March 15, 1988. In between songs she joked about playing a Billy Idol song and then said "I think that Billy Idol being on Joni Mitchell's album is a kind of interesting twist to the 1980s" She didn't say anthing else - just started playing. Guess she was kinda surprised. Cheers, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 17:29:31 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: [NJC] Fwd: Clinton, NRA Agree on One Point Marcel forwarded: > Finding a rare point of agreement, the Clinton > administration and the National Rifle Association both would prohibit > juveniles who commit violent crimes from ever owning a gun. Yes, because the NRA are smart enough to realize that these teenage massacres are the weak spot of their ill-founded cause -- in them, the deadly absurdity of the whole "gun-freedom" concept becomes obvious to everybody. However, it must be emphasized that guns don't belong in the hands of anyone, except for those who have a justified reason to carry one, plus a professional education on when and how to use them. And even these few people must be given strict and restrictive rules to follow. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:28:22 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Priorities (NJC) Don says: << Now I'm sure that I'm going to be roundly chastised for this, but I feel that my wife's and my decision was perfectly responsible. At least we went in with our eyes open ... fully aware of the consequences of going either way ... and decided that we just weren't parental material. I wish more people could see themselves with this same objectivity and clarity.>> No chastising from me, Don - would that everyone were as logical and responsible as you & your wife. We stopped at 1 for the same reason. And there are lots of parents who can have 2,3,4 or more kids and make it work, but sad to say there are many who can't make it work and aren't prepared to invest the time. Unfortunately folks like us seem to be the exception rather than the rule these days... Bob, no minivan for me NP: The Brains, "Golddust Kids" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:39:00 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - April 26 1983: Joni performs at the Koninklijk Circus in Brussels - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:56:38 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: virus warning - CIH aka. Chernobyl NJC From: "J M" Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 22:48:35 PDT Merry Meet all... I'm so sick of this stupid virus thing... In case any of you don't know, the *only* ways you can get a virus is if you dowload something to your computer or is you give permission to download things. Obviously, you should be careful anyway when you download things off the net. Just thought I'd give you all a bit of info so that whenever anyone else sends around those silly "Virus Warning" emails you can know the truth. Blessed Be, ~*~Niteangyl~*~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:28:27 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni mention by B Raitt in 1988 (JC & BC) joni and bonnie seem to genuinely "love" and respect one another. I have heard NO carping from either about the other (well, of course--it's a case of talent deferring to talent), and that makes us all happy, no? I remember several years ago (was it the rolling stone article of 79!? or maybe one of the Musician covers in the eighties) when joni was asked about her friends in the music scene of LA: after clipping through a roster of the 'big guns' of the time and being surprisingly diplomatic (i can say now, having read far less in the way of politic replies these latter days) she said, "Bonnie Raitt has always been enthusiastic and supportive of me..." (rough quote, but the spirit is true). Then I remember an interview with Bonnie after her "re-emergence" with Nick of Time--it may have been press for the next (also a monster, no?) album--when she and the interviewer were just speaking generally about the music scene at the time and she said she admired how Madonna marketed herself (kinda the same-old same-old about Maddie, but what're you gonna do?) saying something about how she envied her that ability, and adding, "I wish Joni Mitchell would get some of that kind of attention." (again, a rough quote, but again, the spirit is there). To me, and I mean no disrepect, Joni is like a seer, and Bonnie, a (great) beer; I don't think of Bonnie as much (though I know she is truly an awesome artist, and i only really end up liking Harlem in Havana, and maybe Crazy Cries of Love on Joni's latest), but that doesn't matter, it's just me and my inclinations. Remember when Bonnie won all those Grammies for Nick of Time--remember her face, her surprise and deeply felt joy? How she trembled, how sincerely she spoke and also those moments on the floor between her and her father? Unforgettable, most beautiful. And then there is the reason for her winning underneath all that--what a woman, what an artist, what a girl. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:34:58 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Playing with guns (NJC) While we're on the subject, wonder how many song titles mention guns? I can think of... Shotgun - Jr. Walker Shot With His Own Gun - Elvis Costello My Father's Gun - Elton John Lovegun - Kiss Happiness Is A Warm Gun - The Beatles Bob NP: Jimi Hendrix, "Killing Floor" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:50:35 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Latest News from Kosovo (NJC) Folks, I just listened to the main news on German TV, and they aired a telephone interview with Bug Drascovich conducted just minutes ago. Drascovich is a former leader of the Serbian Democratic movement, but now a member of the Milosevich government. He said he personally was ready to agree to armed NATO troops in Kosovo as part of a U.N. peacekeeping force, if NATO stopped the bombardment, and he also said this proposal was acknowledged by Milosevich. What can we infer from this? Not much, as Drascovich is a dangerous Nationalist himself and has proved his lack of reliability on several occasions. Either Drascovich is the rat to leave the ship before it sinks or he is serving as a test baloon for Milosevich. Nevertheless, we know for sure now that the air attacks clearly have an effect on the Yugoslav government. Now it is important to continue getting the message across, until the Serbs start pulling back their murder gangs from Kosovo's territory. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:00:45 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Joni mention by B Raitt in 1988 (JC & BC) Ray comments about Bonnie Raitt: <> I heard Bonnie coming into work this morning on her duet with John Lee Hooker that won ANOTHER Grammy for her "I'm in the Mood". Oh, and btw, "Longing in Their Hearts" was the next disc after "Nick of Time" and that was superb as well, her covers are to die for - the gut-wrenching emotion of Richard Thompson's "Dimming of the Day", or as Michael Y mentioned, the sorrowful "I Can't Make You Love Me". And of course, there was the criminally overlooked "Fundamental" from last year - I just picked it up 2 months ago and it's another string of gems. Her discs are always good mixes of rock, blues, ballads, jazz, etc. A lot of her sweeping the Grammies with "Nick" involved her recovery from alcoholism and other self-destructive habits. I'd love for her to do more Joni covers - her work on "That Song About the Midway" makes for the best Joni cover ever...of course, I haven't heard Lahm's stuff yet, still waiting for the disc in the mail :~( Bob NP: Jimi, "All Along The Watchtower" (pretty good cover in its own right) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:11:43 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Worst Lyrics Ever (according to Music week) UK trade rag Music Week have included some familiar lyrics in their "worst ever" survey. http://www.dotmusic.com/News/april99/99423News1565.asp A few days ago we asked you to post your selections of the worst lyrics ever written in our Speak Out section and the response has already been massive with some real gems coming in. We were expecting the old Des'ree ‘toast’ chestnut, but that's just the half of it. Below is a taster of some of the best so far. Next week we'll publish the top 20 - so keep posting here. We'll also run a competition to see if you can identify the sources of 10 of the best, so have a good look at these because some are bound to end up in the top 20. Some faves - and some of these aren't bad just daft - in no particular order: 'We drank blue lemonade and ate mud pies, We owned the land, oh yes we owned the sky' - Des’ree 'Richard got married to a figure skater and he bought her a dishwasher and a coffee percolator' - anon 'I'm afraid of the dark, Especially when I'm in a park, And there's no one else around, Oh I get the shivers, I don't want to see a ghost, That's a sight that I fear most, I'd rather have a piece of toast....' - Des’ree 'Turn around...On the ground...Give it up...Face down' - In Essence 'We were talking divorce And we weren't even married' - Puff Daddy 'John. Yoko. John. Yoko. John? YOKO! JOHN! YOOOOKOOOO!!! John. Yokoyokoyokoyokoyokoyokoyokoyokoyokoyoko.' - John & Yoko 'Some girls are bigger than others, some girls are bigger than others, some girls' mothers are bigger than other girls' mothers..' - The Smiths 'Little does she know that I know that she knows that I know she's cheating on me" - Guy Mitchell © Miller Freeman Entertainment Ltd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:15:27 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: weird story of the day - NJC More weirdness from Music Week - Sinead O'Connor is really a priest. http://www.dotmusic.com/News/april99/99426News1572.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:22:13 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Priorities (NJC) Don-it is a pity more people don't follow your example. Have never understood those that have children and then pay nannies to care for them! I think perhaps there are some jobs that go go with child rearing-forces and the police come to mind. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 12:39:00 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - April 27 1974: Today's issue of Melody Maker features a review of a recent concert, saying "Joni Mitchell is disturbing in a very real way because after watching and listening to her for a while you start thinking she's not just a woman, she's WOMAN, embodying all male desires and expectations. Small wonder then that a legion of very well-known men have been sufficiently drawn by the siren's call to jump in headfirst after her. So this is the meaning of worship? Like the White Goddess of mythology she beckons, elusive, virginal and not a little awe-inspiring. It must be a trifle terrifying to know you appear that perfect. Crap, she'd probably reply, because after all she's human and with a well-developed sense of humour, too." Read the full article at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/mm740427.htm 1991: Night Ride Home hits #41 on the US charts. Her final outing with Geffen, Mitchell enters into a dispute with the label which has allegedly placed a lien on her publishing royalties in an effort to recoup its investment in her recordings, a tactic which the company subsequently drops. - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 20:47:25 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: weird story of the day - NJC philipf@tinet.ie wrote: > > Sinead O'Connor is really a priest. > > http://www.dotmusic.com/News/april99/99426News1572.asp Another person who under no circumstances should be given a gun -- I think she's capable of asassinating the Icelandic Prime Minister due to his discrimination against the polar penguins... ;-) Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:12:43 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Laurie Anderson (JC) From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 11:40:17 -0800 Ad.d me to the list of Laurie Anderson fans on the list, though I'm not as familiar with her work as many. I've never seen her perform, so I can only comment on her work as recorded. Experimentalism is the dominant trait in her work to me, as much in the sounds with which she accompanies her words as with the words themselves. I believe it was she who first placed a microphone in the bow of a violin, picking up the sound of the violin being played from a different perspective. She also has worked a lot with vocoders and placing microphones on different parts of the body. In this respect I would say she shares quite a bit with Joni, carrying alternate tunings and free-flowing time signatures to their natural extreme. I would also say that the substance of her "lyrics" is not too dissimilar to Joni's, though her technique differs markedly. One of my favorite pieces by Laurie Anderson consists primarily of snippets of a typical phone conversation ("Hello? Are you coming home?). As delivered, however, the conversation is disjointed, and the ridiculous underside to the ritual is revealed--in timing, setting, etc. I'd say Joni often does the same thing, but by addressing and naming those subliminal emotions and motivations directly in her lyrics ("Harry's House" is a good example.) The last thing I'll say about Laurie Anderson is that many of her recordings are very inexpensive, so I definitely recommend experimenting with her. You should be able to find _Big Science_ for roughly US$10. - --Michael NP: Roni Size/Reprazent, _New Forms_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:34:01 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? Kate T. wrote: > > There has been talk of making the parents criminally liable if they > knew about their kids' activities; which begs the question that if they > didn't know, why not? (And perhaps they should be indicted in any event > - -- a difficult question with multiple ramifications.) To me, the idea of holding the parents responsible for this crime (I've been reading it in the papers today too) somehow smacks of the howling mob having been cheated of its prey: those who actually committed the crime are dead, so, in our thirst for retribution, we'll go after the next closest thing we can find. Part of me was very relieved to read that the boys had killed themselves on the scene, as I thought it would spare us endlessly frustrating discussions such as whether 17- and 18-year-olds (or 11- and 12-year-olds, as in Arkansas, for that matter) should be given the death penalty. Now it seems my relief may have been premature. Isn't there a line between identifying lack of parental guidance as an underlying cause of this tragedy, and scapegoating the boys' parents? (Especially when we don't know that much about them yet?) Further, is it possible that violence like in Littleton is fueled by the way that our society's response to senseless tragedies like these is to look for somewhere to mete out punishment. Is punishment always synonymous with justice? And is that the only "good" that can come out of these killings, with the discussion being twisted in these terms? Hope this makes sense. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 12:37:51 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - April 27 > 1991: Night Ride Home hits #41 on the US charts. Her final outing with > Geffen, Mitchell enters into a dispute with the label which has allegedly > placed a lien on her publishing royalties in an effort to recoup its > investment in her recordings, a tactic which the company subsequently drops. This is the first I've read that the lien was placed on her *publishing* royalties. Without making any comments about the legality of this, I must say that this is really, really low-down stuff. No wonder her attitude. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:01:54 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: Playing with guns (NJC) Smoking Gun -- The Robert Cray Band (BTW A great song by a great musician) Winfried NP: Midnight Stroll -- The Robert Cray Band (favorite song: the forecast) Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com wrote: > > While we're on the subject, wonder how many song titles mention guns? > I can think of... > > Shotgun - Jr. Walker > Shot With His Own Gun - Elvis Costello > My Father's Gun - Elton John > Lovegun - Kiss > Happiness Is A Warm Gun - The Beatles > > Bob > > NP: Jimi Hendrix, "Killing Floor" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:01:00 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? David says: < Is punishment always synonymous with justice? And is that the only "good" that can come out of these killings, with the discussion being twisted in these terms?>> While that does make sense, David, if it sets a PRECEDENT that gives some parents a wake-up call to be more in tune with their children, than that would be a better pre-emptive "good" that could happen from punishing the parents. Further, in USA Today, one of the Dads from Littleton had previously discovered, downloaded and printed the info from the kid's web site and gave it to the Sheriff's Dept. over a year ago, and followed it up with 6-8 phone calls, and never got a response - sounds like maybe a head or two should roll there... Bob NP: Juliana Hatfield, "Dying Proof" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:04:51 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Guns (NJC) Not looking for a fight or even a debate, maybe just some answers. I'll reiterate that guns personally scare the hell out of me, and I don't want them in my home or anywhere near me. I totally agree that most people are killed by guns in their own home. Growing up I heard of at least 3 instances where childen were accidently killed from getting ahold of their dad's gun and that alone changed the way I forever looked at these weapons. However, when people use the word "ban" with respect to guns, I start thinking of complexities and some questions came to my mind: 1) If guns are banned how do we ensure that all existing guns are turned in? One one hand there would be many peope who would voluntarily turn them in. But what about the multitudes who would not? Do we do a door-to-door search of every home in the U.S.? The people who are insistent on owning them will always find a way to conceal them. And certainly the criminals would hold on to their own arsenals. What effect would it have if mostly criminals have possession of these weapons? Seems like a very unequal proposition to me. 2) No one has mentioned Switzerland. I only have a rough knowledge of this, but doesn't the Swiss goverment actually require every household to maintain an arsenal? They consider every citizen as a member of their "militia" and the fact that they are uniformaly well armed has enabled them to keep out of wars, maintain neutrality, and not be invaded. How do they handle the presence of an abundance of guns and other weaponry there? 3) What about the fact that the U.S. has huge areas that are practically uninhabited and wild? For the most part this would include the Western United States, which in georgaphical size equals Western Europe. Probably not coincidentally, this is often the region where you will find that the majority of resident are for upholding the 2nd Amendment. Are they all nut cases? I don't think so. Many of these people live in areas that are isolated and considered wilderness. I think it is appropriate for them to want to have a gun - they have a real need to protect themselves, their children and sometimes their livestock against the ever-present threat of bears, mountain lions, wolves, and also wildlife of the two-legged variety. If you live in an isolated area you may be hundreds of miles from the nearest law enforcement entity. Who wants to be out there alone and defenseless if some whacked out drifter decides to come in off an interstate highway and settle in at your ranch? 4) Are the calls for a complete ban more tactical than anything? Is the idea to ask for the most radical solution in hopes of maybe getting 50% of the goal accomplished? I ask all these questions in complete sincerity. Maybe I'm too logicall but I need more answers before I can form my own opinion on this issue. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:29:40 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? Bob Muller@fluordaniel.com schrieb: > > > David says: > > < (I've been reading it in the papers today too) somehow smacks of the > howling mob having been cheated of its prey: those who actually committed > the crime are dead, so, in our thirst for retribution, we'll go after the > next closest thing we can find. Is punishment always synonymous > with justice? And is that the only "good" that can come out of these > killings, with the discussion being twisted in these terms?>> > > While that does make sense, David, if it sets a PRECEDENT that gives some > parents a wake-up call to be more in tune with their children, than that > would be a better pre-emptive "good" that could happen from punishing the > parents. > One year ago, I would have argued in pretty much the same way, but I've changed my mind on this subject. Parents ARE responsible for preventing their children from turning into serial killers, but I sincerely doubt the threat of criminal punishment will help. Most cases are the result of parents failing to teach their kids values, because they themselves are unable to live these values. (Kids learn by observation and imitation) Ideally, such people shouldn't have had kids in the first place. In such an environment, criminal liability will at best lead to repressive measures ("I'm going to beat the shit out of you if you steal again"), which will only worsen the problem. Offering advice and education on responsible parenting might be a less spectacular, but more effective measure. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:45:57 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? Winfried schrieb: <> Then let's put it like this: If I'm bit by a neighbor's dog, they're responsible for not properly containing their animal. Likewise, it would make sense that they would be responsible for the criminal behavior of their offspring. I agree with everything you're saying, but I still think the net result would be an increased sense of parental responsibility. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:54:35 -0600 From: Brett Code Subject: RE: Guns (NJC) Because the questions you raise are so difficult, the answer may not lie in banning guns but in banning the manufacture of bullets. Guns may kill people but, without bullets, they are less likely to do so. I assume there are a limited number of bullet manufacturers - make it a crime to manufacture them (as well as to buy, own or trade in them). It might take a while until present stocks are used up, but it would eventually limit the ability of gun users to use their guns to kill, at least from a distance. That wouldn't stop foreign manufacturers, so it would have to be a crime to import bullets, too. Difficult to enforce, but at least metal is detectable. It doesn't solve the problem of people who live or travel in areas where wild animals are a threat. Brett - ---------- From: Kakki[SMTP:kakkib@att.net] Sent: Monday, April 26, 1999 2:05 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Guns (NJC) <> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:03:43 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Playing with guns (NJC) Rifle Range - Blondie Machine Gun - Hendrix Band Of Gypsies Jawbone and Air Rifle - The Fall - -jan > While we're on the subject, wonder how many song titles mention guns? > I can think of... > Shotgun - Jr. Walker > Shot With His Own Gun - Elvis Costello > My Father's Gun - Elton John > Lovegun - Kiss > Happiness Is A Warm Gun - The Beatles > Bob > NP: Jimi Hendrix, "Killing Floor" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 13:21:57 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: collaboration wish >--Michael >NP: Roni Size/Reprazent, _New Forms_ I was thinking that a collaboration between Joni and Roni Size might be pretty snab, in a Ying/Yang way: her lush, elliptical harmonies would mesh well with the jagged aggression of his Drum & Bass grooves. Plus, there's that 'Joni' 'Roni' tag dynamic. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:30:18 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: weird story of the day - NJC I realise you are joking. Howevr, i do not understand why people are so down on Siinead. She has passion and compassion, knows what is what and is healthy. She stands up for what she believes is right and against the mistreatment of people, be they children, women or men. Which of course is probably why she gets lambasted. As for her pope pic tearing-i found the reaction of a crowd of young people afr more shocking and distasteful. bw colin Winfried Hhn wrote: > philipf@tinet.ie wrote: > > > > Sinead O'Connor is really a priest. > > > > http://www.dotmusic.com/News/april99/99426News1572.asp > > > Another person who under no circumstances should be given a gun -- I > think she's capable of asassinating the Icelandic Prime Minister due to > his discrimination against the polar penguins... ;-) > > Winfried - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:29:42 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? > > > Further, is it possible that violence like in Littleton is fueled > by the way that our society's response to senseless tragedies like these > is to look for somewhere to mete out punishment. Is punishment always > synonymous with justice? Hardly ever, i would say, if ever.Also, if killing is wrong, then so must capital punishement be, and war as well of course. But people will never see that cos it doesn't suit. I find it so hard to understand, the Anerica, who prides it self on being a great civilised nation, can still be so barbaric as to have the death penalty, patrticulalry, the chair. That is just evil. Regarding parents being amde liable for their childrens behaviour-a great idea that I think should be put into practice. Thos not in theis Colardo case as it is too late and would serve no purpose. The fact their children did such a thing and they now have lost them is enough. Such grief is a HUGE price to pay for any possible neglect on their part. bw colin > And is that the only "good" that can come out of > these killings, with the discussion being twisted in these terms? > > Hope this makes sense. > > --David - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 15:38:10 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Guns and England njc From: "Hejira" Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:29:00 +0100 England is in shock today at the news of the shotting of Jill Dando one of the most popular tv presenters over here .She was shot in the head . I don't know what is going on but it is not only in the U.S. Send a thougth out for her family and loved ones Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:03:34 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) Bill Dollinger wrote: > On Fri, 23 Apr 1999 MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > > > The last time I heard that stuff about "no more war" it was from Bill Clinton > > in 1969. > > Actually, I was refering to Tea Leaf Prophesies, which > is on Chalk Mark In A Rainstorm. > > bill But i"no more war" could also be found in the Bible: Isaiah 2 and Micah 4... but then God and Joni occasionally sing the same song, yes? (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:04:14 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Re[2]: (NJC) Colorado -- parents criminally liable? On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com wrote: > While that does make sense, David, if it sets a PRECEDENT that gives some > parents a wake-up call to be more in tune with their children, than that > would be a better pre-emptive "good" that could happen from punishing the > parents. You don't think that the tragedy itself has been enough of a wake-up call already???!!? - --David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 00:16:13 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Guns and gun control in Switzerland NJC For anyone interested in the (unique) situation in Switzerland, here is a good link for some basic information http://www.ssaa.org.au/un/swiss.html Please allow me the personal remark that I think militarism and military education is not necessarily one of the strengths of this otherwise very formidable country. Juerg, are you still there? Whaddaya think? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:59:13 +1000 (EST) From: michaelb@coolgold.com.au (Michael) Subject: Tape Tree on CD Hi All I was just curious if there is any move to burn CD's for the tape trees instead of tapes.It seems like a logical move to me considering blank CDs are cheaper than tapes and many listers must have cd burners either in their computers or as a stand alone unit. From my limited knowledge all we need one person who has the ability to convert the anolouge signal into a digital form then it's just copy,copy,copy from there. I am sure there are people on the list that can do this... Any ideas?????? Michael http://www.coolgold.com.au/~michaelb/index.html michaelb@coolgold.com.au Either we are alone in the universe ...........Or we're not............ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #183 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. 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