From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #179 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, April 23 1999 Volume 04 : Number 179 TapeTree #8 is ready to roll. To sign up go to: http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: the History of 'Twisted' [Joseph Palis ] Re: JMDL Post reactions: NJC ["Winfried Hühn" ] Colorado[njc] ["Brian S. Moss" ] Re: NJC: Parenting [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: JMDL Post reactions: NJC [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Killing Your Television (NJC and sort of long) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: NJC - Sarah Jane Morris [j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi] Re: NJC: Parenting [MGVal@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #177 ["Ryan Lantrip" ] Re: Colorado (njc) [luvart@snet.net] Re: NJC: Parenting [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: NJC: Parenting [RMuRocks@aol.com] RE: scary Americans (NJC) [Brett Code ] Re: colorado--njc [catman ] Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) [Bill Dollinger ] Essential Recordings of the 90's [RMuRocks@aol.com] Colorado (NJC) and long [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Rick & Penny Gibbons)] Re: Colorado[njc] [jan gyn ] Colorado (NJC) ["paul tyrer" ] Today in Joni History - April 24 [Today in Joni History ] joni and massive attack [Bounced Message ] Colorado -- The German Connection (NJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #177 NJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Colorado[njc] [catman ] Re: Colorado (NJC) and long [catman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:31:11 +0800 (PST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: the History of 'Twisted' > > 4. Bette Midler is said (by people on this list) to have covered > Twisted next. I've never heard Bette's version. > > 5. Then Joni covered it on C&S. She almost certainly found it on the > LH&Ross album, along with Centerpiece. In Joni's Twisted she changes > (or got wrong?) a few of the lyrics and melodic lines relative to > either of Annie's versions. There two singers who sang "Twisted" after Joni (one that I heard anyway): one was Marlena Shaw's live version in her LIVE AT MONTREUX album and Crystal Waters from ... one of her albums... Its hard not to like "Twisted" so whoever can sing it should be listened to for the fun of hearing this song from another singer's style (though I would love to hear Manhattan Transfer's Janis Siegel sing this song --> the one who IMHO could approximate Annie Ross' style). Joseph (Patricia Barber's "Modern Cool") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:03:11 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: JMDL Post reactions: NJC I am truly amazed at the spectrum and quality of comments and opinion on this list! Winfried, deliberately quoting Vince's entire post, still thinking though it was good and necessary to apologize Vince Lavieri schrieb: > A few quick, overly long thoughts, for what they are worth, which is > nothing: > > Paraphrase: 'Sometimes you Americans scare the shit out of me' and > following apology. The apology, rooted in our friend's acknowledgment > of Holocaust in his own national heritage, needs not to be abject. We > scare the shit out of each other sometimes. Does anyone doubt anymore > H. Rap Brown's statement, "Violence is as American as apple pie." But > we are not alone; South African whites, the Hutus and Tutsis, the Serbs, > the Irish Protestants, have all scared of me and/or someone in recently > times. And this is not a blanket indictment of a people as a whole or > of any individual within a culture per se. It is a comment that > sometimes within a society the violence gets out of control. School > shootings also happen in Britain and mass murders in Australia. But we > are running more than our share in this country, and talking to a high > school/middle school students, I am seeing that the shit is being scared > out of them right now. > > Common factors in all of our recent school shootings is the shooters > being loners, haters, homophobics, racists, Nazi-adoring white males > with easy access to guns and something to prove. We have to control the > guns, which are, after all, in the 2nd Amendment, for the purpose of a > well ordered militia, and not so crazy Bob can have an Uzi or so Mom and > Dad and Grandparents can stockpile guns which the kids can get and take > to school. > > Colin spoke of Christianity not teaching personal responsibility, and > then wrote that profound sentence about 'love thy neighbor' being a > forgotten teaching. The version of Christian religion being pushed > these days seems to be a right-wing political agenda that has nothing to > do with anything that I can see as a Scriptural concern, or a personal > salvation thing. > > In fact, that's not what the Scriptures are about. The Scriptures, both > Prime Covenant (Old Testament) and Christian Covenant (New Testament) > are all about our responsibility to the poor, the outcast, the stranger, > the widow, the disposed, the alien, the hungry, the lonely, the > prisoner. The command that Jesus gave on the night he was betrayed was > not, "believe in me for personal salvation," but rather, it was "Love > one another as I have loved you." 3 of the 10 Commandments deal with > our relations with God, the other 7 dealing with treating other people > with justice. The only place where I know of where God makes a > requirement upon us is in the Book of Micah: "What does the Lord require > of you, but to do justice, to love mercy, and walk humbly with your > God." God is third in God's own requirement. It is our responsibility > to treat others with justice and mercy that precede our ability to walk > humbly with God. > > The Church has failed to teach these things. We ourselves have been > irresponsible in these things. I bet that sometimes we scare the shit > out of God, who grieves for those that we kill in our various ways in > our society, gay men tied to fences and left to die, African Americans > tied to the back of pick-ups, school children gunned down by the peers. > And such things as ethnic cleansing... which involves the killing of > the nonChristian Islamic Bosnians or Kosovars by Christians... or tribal > warfare, where Hutu and Tutsi bishops and church members were involved > in the carrying out of those mass murders... how we sin against what the > Scriptures teach, what God requires of us. Forgive our maddening, > warlike wars, O Lord. > > Thankfully we have people like Desmond Tutu to show us a better way > without the hate, most recently with the SA Truth and Justice > Commission, and thankfully we have the expressions of compassion which > we have read here. > > And I still dream that above us the jet planes will be turning into > butterflies, across the nations. > > (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 04:14:28 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: scary Americans (NJC) No need to apologize to this American, Winfried. Thanks for acknowledging your own nation's very scary past, but this aspect of American culture has scared the shit out of all but the most obsessive members of the National Rifle Association, but these are the kinds of idiots who wouldn't call for banning guns even after their own families had been slain in the crossfire of some senseless shooting. Instead, they would be talking about how the killers' families failed to raise them properly. What utter bullshit! Much has been made about how the gun is a substitute penis or a phallic extension and that's why men are reluctant to give them up. That holds some truth, but more importantly, there is a tremendous power that comes with owning something that can kill someone so thoroughly in an instant. That is what American men do not want to give up. Dianne Feinstein is the only Senator in Washington who was "man enough" to openly say that the National Rifle Association has a stranglehold on Congress. Of course, they are working on defeating her come next election. I say be loud and proud to shout FUCK THE NRA even though that puts you at risk for getting shot. It really does. The gun laws in this country are absolutely stupid. We have not been a British colony for over 200 years, and should no longer expect the Red Coats to invade our country. We have the most powerful military system in the world today so we don't need guns to fight invaders in places like Colorado. I work with many gun toting men and feel very strongly that it's time to stand up to the NRA and its members. I won't be silent any more and have not been silent at work when this issue comes up. Here in Los Angeles, a friend stole her purse, but more importantly, they stole her peace of mind. They got a hold of her phone card, and called to harass her about having canceled her credit cards. She has been unable to return to her apartment since then and her life is in turmoil. Would it have helped her if she had her own gun? No, it wouldn't, not when there were three of them -- that's always the problem in the gun game, it always elevates into something more deadly. My friend has decided to return to her safer, saner home in Canada. I once read that Canada has less than three per cent of our homicide rate and yet Canada and the United States have a similar ethnic make up, especially with the recent immigration of Afro-Caribbeans. Canada *does* have stricter gun laws which the United States should implement tomorrow. Japan has very strict gun laws and less than a fraction of one percent of our homicide rate. Certainly, a time in which guns are finally banned would result in criminals making every attempt to keep theirs so that they may use them against innocents who lawfully turned theirs in. But it's always the gun that people keep around the house as "protection" that ends up in an accident, or gets used in the heat of a sudden dispute with a friend or relative. The lack of gun control in this country is a sick, fucked up situation and the need for control is indisputable. It is geocentric and arrogant to think we are somehow unique and therefore exempt from banning deadly weapons or in need of them in our American homes. Most guns in this country are not used the way they were in Colorado, they are used impulsively. I am so proud that Clinton has spear headed the NATO operation in Kosovo to mitigate an atrocity, but we deserve the world's scorn when we don't arrest and imprison people who use/traffic in guns. I do not apologize for the strong tone of my remarks. We are talking about people's lives. The teenage killers in Colorado used GUNS to murder their victims. Children are dead again -- how long ago was the shooting in Arkansas? The United States can and must learn from the legal systems of other nations. "Little kids packing guns to school...." Clark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:44:36 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: Police and Guns NJC > From: "paul tyrer" > Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:58:45 +0100 > > British police don't carry guns > (It's true!), and get shot less often than police officers anywhere else > in Europe. > PX And they probably shoot other people less often than police officers anywhere else in Europe, too! :-) Winfried, who greatly admires this splendid example for British-style common sense and would recommend following it especially to police officers in Germany's bigger cities with ethnically diversified populations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:08:48 -0400 From: "Brian S. Moss" Subject: Colorado[njc] Greetings: Although I have been avoiding the media coverage of the events in Littleton, I have been monitoring the mostly thoughtful and insightful discussion here. Many observations and exclamations have rung very true. We now live in a child obsessed society[speaking of the US] that feels individual goals and rights supersede the goals and rights and needs of society as a whole. of the Many Fine Arguments and Observations I have read in recent days, none rings truer than the following..... Sue Cameron writes: >Kids need to be guided by parents who are not afraid of discipline. Parents are worried that their decisions will make their children hate them. It seems that as a generation we are trying so hard to do things differently than our parents did that we forget we turned out o.k. I do not fear my children and students hating me because I make them tow the line. I think that they feel safe with me knowing that there will be quick and fair consequences for misbehavior.< Obviously not the only good point I've read but one that needs serious consideration....brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:00:19 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: Parenting In a message dated 4/22/99 11:03:27 PM Central Daylight Time, CaTGirl627@aol.com writes: << If we truly love our kids we need to give them something that there really is never much of and that is OUR time! >> Well put Catwoman! One of the saddest fallacies parents allow themselves is this nonsense of "quality time"; that is, that it's OK to dump babies in daycare for 12 hours a day as long as we take 'em to Chuck E. Cheese once a week! There's nothing, especially "quality time", that replaces "quantity time" with children, just being together, reading books, playing board games, going for walks, to the park, etc. I've found that the most heartfelt conversations I've had with my child are not when we sat down with the intention of having some important conversation, but rather when we were just hanging out doing nothing special.... Bob NP: Ben Folds Five, "Selfless, Cold & Composed" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:29:52 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Post reactions: NJC In a message dated 4/23/99 1:59:26 AM Central Daylight Time, revrvl@pathwaynet.com writes: << and not so crazy Bob can have an Uzi >> Dang, Rev! I HATE guns! :~) Do you think I was crazy? I might have been only 41 but I-I-I-I-I-I was swingin'.... Bob (I know you weren't talking 'bout me) NP: Roots, "Step Into the Relm" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:42:41 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Killing Your Television (NJC and sort of long) In a message dated 4/23/99 2:01:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jpalis@kssp.upd.edu.ph writes: > I can relate. I grew up not having TV. I remembered how excited we were > when our father bought us a big one. I devoured whatever the boob tube has > to offer (I grew up watching LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE, 6-MILLION DOLLAR > MAN, WELCOME BACK, KOTTER, LOVE BOAT, CHARLIE'S ANGELS, etc... very Aaron > Spelling) since then. This was in the late 70s. In the 80s, I grew tired > watching TV. I don't know what happened along the way, but I don't know > the TV personalities anymore. > > I thought I couldn't survive TV before, but when I sort of filled my > craving for TV to the brim, I began to avoid it. I can't say I am happy > after that, but I can say that my life went on without TV... > > Joseph > (who never tire of watching films) > > And I should have clarified that I *do* own a TV set and VCR, because we all love films at my house also. We don't think of the box we have as TV, really, because what it provides for us is only in conjunction with the VCR and the movie tapes we put into it. We literally have no reception. The house we bought three years ago is in a lovely little valley surrounded by some rather high hills, which block any reception. I mean, we couldn't even get a channel in fuzzy mode. We would need a major dish setup, as the area is too remote for cable as well. We decided that we have never valued TV reception to the extent that we would pay $60 per month to view a gazillion channels we'll hardly ever watch. We instead decided we would use that money to do interesting day trips or buy extra books and art supplies and music. When we did have TV, I never found that we had the time for it anyway and I rarely watched it. I mean, it was a rare occurrence if I sat down once a month to watch something on TV. My children were watching something like 2 hours a week at one point - all public TV. But then they too began to get more homework and developed interests that kept them too busy to turn on the tube. It has been reasonably effortless. My girls (10 and almost 12) devote a lot of time to their schoolwork (both excellent students) they play and practice their instruments, read a ton, make up board games, invent things, do art work, cook and do kitchen science experiments, put on little plays and dance performances and...hmmm...argue with each other and their parents a lot! My kids are normal, happy, well-adjusted girls (so far, knock on wood). There are those who have said that they will be "out of step" with their peers and lacking in their ability to relate to a "common culture". I don't really see that and neither do my children. One mom who hosted my kids at her house recently said that they would have blown everyone out of the water in a Trivial Pursuit game had it not been for their TV "illiteracy" in that entertainment category in the game. If that's the only pitfall to the lack of TV in their lives, I'm not too worried. Without sounding like a TV snob (which I'm not...sometimes I miss TV), I can't understand how anyone can find the time!! Raising two children, working 35 hours a week, volunteering, seeing friends, community events, reading, our garden and our old house, our beautiful rural surroundings which allow us so many recreational opportunities, music, music, music and surfing the net for good info on my interests, I can't even imagine there would be time left over to watch TV. I can listen to NPR for my news while we make dinner and keep in touch that way. I rarely go on about the "evils" of television. I'm not on a mission. I don't moralize. When the subject comes up, I simply describe to people what I've just described to you guys. My little slice of life. It works for us, we wish other people would do it but to each his own. I certainly don't equate all of society's evils with TV viewing either. But, I will say this: in the absence of TV, what we as a family have found, is that we have more time to connect with each other and therefore we as parents have more opportunities to talk with our kids, find out where they're at, discuss our opinions and feelings on a variety of topics and interject what we feel our children should know about our values, about what is right and what is wrong but more importantly, discuss those things which are *not* black and white but require a lot of analysis and discussion in order to come to grips with - including the recent Colorado horror. Take care, Gina NPIMH: This is no time to Swallow Anger This is no time to Ignore Hate This is not time to be Acting Frivolous because the time is getting late This is not time for Private Vendettas This is no time to not know who you are Self knowledge is a dangerous thing The freedom of who you are This is no time to Ignore Warnings This is not time to Clear the Plate Let's not be sorry after the fact and let the past become our fate From There Is No Time, the album New York by Lou Reed ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 05:44:32 +0300 From: j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi Subject: Re: NJC - Sarah Jane Morris > > > The last time I did a double take on the strength of a vocalist's voice > > > was when June Tabor sang an Elvis Costello song > > > > Would this song be All This Useless Beauty or does June cover something else > > by EC as well? > > Yes, she does -- "All this Useless Beauty" from _Angel Tiger_ was > followed by "I Want To Vanish" from _Against the Streams_. > > > June obviously has her fans. > > As well she might! :) She's a remarkable artist. Have you heard her album "Heaven" from 1992? I don't know much about SJM (except that she sings the female parts in "Don't Leave Me This Way" by Communards - I'm not sure if that's correct..?), but the album is good. - --jussi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:57:15 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: Parenting In a message dated 99-04-23 09:14:29 EDT, RMuRocks@aol.com writes: > One of the saddest fallacies parents allow themselves is >this nonsense of "quality time"; that is, that it's OK to dump babies in >daycare for 12 hours a day as long as we take 'em to Chuck E. Cheese once a >week! There's nothing, especially "quality time", that replaces "quantity >time" with children, just being together, reading books, playing board games, > I just wanted to add a quick comment to this one: As a single parent with inadequate child support and budget anxieties that sour my stomach, sometimes parents allow themselves the concept of "quality time" because they do not have any alternative. I know that there are parents who abuse this concept, but many of us are torn between the economic realities of housing, food and clothing and "quantity time" with our children. Just my .02 before dashing off to punch the clock.... MG ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:00:49 CDT From: "Ryan Lantrip" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #177 >KILL YOUR TELEVISION, NOW!!!! I did, and that is one BIG monkey off my back. >Try it. > I don't get it. Call me "stupid 17 year old", but what's so wrong with TV? Sure it has its mind numbing programs and propaganda, but i've seen some of the most interesting things on TV. I find it more informative to be told what is going on in the news than read it most of the time, I love some of the documentaries i've seen, and don't care much for movie theaters so HBO is a god send. I understand that real life is way more interesting, but nothin beats a tv when you can't get out for the night, or bored stiff...well, nothin but a joni album(but who doesn't know _that_) Call me kOoKy, Ryan "That TV lovin' nut" Lantrip _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 00:11:37 -0400 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: Colorado (njc) At 09:14 AM 4/22/99 +0200, M.Russell@iaea.org wrote: > I think something that is lacking in >school systems is basic education about how to treat other people and strong >discouragement of ridicule. IMO, this also has to change, along with taking >threats seriously and more parental involvement. > Yes, Marian. It's called respect. People have to be taught respect not only by word but by example. Heather ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:06:38 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: Parenting In a message dated 4/23/99 10:01:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: > As a single parent with inadequate child support and budget anxieties that > sour my stomach, sometimes parents allow themselves the concept of "quality > time" because they do not have any alternative. I know that there are > parents > who abuse this concept, but many of us are torn between the economic > realities of housing, food and clothing and "quantity time" with our > children. You bet and right on, sister! If this is a "me too" post, tough ME TOO ME TOO ME TOO! Gina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:30:08 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC: Parenting In a message dated 4/23/99 9:01:43 AM Central Daylight Time, MGVal@aol.com writes: << but many of us are torn between the economic realities of housing, food and clothing and "quantity time" with our children. >> I'm with ya' on that MG, and no offense intended - my statement was aimed at folks who HAVE the choice and choose the pursuit of things over the nurturing of children. By the same token, just this week I was "offered" the opportunity to take a 3-month assignment in Houston - I declined due to family & community obligations...now maybe I'll lose my job but I still think I made the right call... Bob NP: Van, "These Dreams of You" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:51:38 -0600 From: Brett Code Subject: RE: scary Americans (NJC) Clark has it right. The guns have got to go. My own view is that all guns should be banned permanently and so should their manufacture. They serve no useful purpose. I was in an airport lounge in Pittsburgh the other day when a guy who would fit in with the gangs in northern Idaho simply had to tell me that "the thing in Kosovo is a good argument against gun control. D'ya think this'd be happening if they all had guns? No Man!" A ridiculous statement by a ridiculous little man. Several years ago - maybe 15 - Gore Vidal said, while criticizing U.S. defence policy and the huge annual "investment" in "defence" something like: "We're spending all this money on defence but we'll soon have nothing left to defend, or worth defending." Did he exaggerate? Possibly, but it is clear that people live in fear - in most cities including most suburbs, women can't look up or look a man in the eye while walking down the street; children fear strangers and each other; and on and on. Canada is not much better. Most Canadians pretentiously state that "that could never happen in Canada". But they're wrong. It is true that Canada has stricter - way stricter - gun laws than does the U.S. It didn't stop a guy from getting a gun and killing 13 women (he didn't hate jocks; he hated women) at Montreal's Polytechnique several years ago. Canadian papers are filled, these recent days, with articles advising people, especially parents, not to be so flag-wavingly naïve regarding the relative safety of Canada vis-a-vis the U.S. All of the schools don't yet have metal detectors at the doors, but some do. Where America goes, so goes Canada. And we don't spend much on "defence". Brett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:10:27 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: colorado--njc > > > Thanks for the "spiral and gyre" notes, Winfried and Catman. I've always > believed in the spiral as an image for life. If you don't get a thing > right, it comes around again later and you try to deal with it then with > your more altered life skills. And if you still can't or won't, it comes > around again. We have many opportunities to get it right. I think this is so too. Whether that means we get born again and again or not I do not know. jesus implies reincarnation in one of the Gospels-can't recallthe exact quote but it is about saying John the baptist was Elijah(?). Many religions accept reincarnation and it was a part of the Bibllical teaching tilll Constantine got his hands on it.Mind you that does not make reincarnation a fact. I think it is something we won't know, at least not in this incarnation! bw colin > > > Listening to Leonard Cohen's "Democracy Is Coming to the U.S.A." heartened > me some. I also love his lyric > > "Ring the bells that still can ring > forget your perfect offering > there is a crack, a crack in everything > that's how the light gets in." > > Debra K > > **************************************************************** > "The end is nothing. The road is all." -- Willa Cather > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:37:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) Our children are playing games and watching programs which demand and reward concentration and focus on a constant state of conflict. It is no surprise that they learn to view the world from that perspective. What you focus your energies on will grow. Lay down your arms, study war no more. On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > Interesting take but I disagree as follows (1) The fact was that they did not > have anywheres near the "arsenal" that was expected to be found. There were > no machine guns or grenade launchers and they werent abusing their kids. > Shouldnt the government KNOW that such an arsenal exists BEFORE it uses gas > that ignites and kills 86 people ? Or is it given an out if it says "oops". > (2) The film "Rules of Engagement" clearly shows from infrared camera footage > obtained under the freedom of information act that it wasnt a mass suicide. > people were trying to get out as the soldiers shot through the door. (3) > There is no question that the 2nd amendment was placed in the constitution > for the purpose indicated. (4) Guerilla warfare ALWAYS involves heavier armed > organized army vs lesser armed guerillas. I wont ask you if you ever heard > about the Soviet experience in Afghanistan but trust me the Apaches dont > always win. Send your questions about this to the Mujehadin they will support > my assertion. cheers marcel. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:31:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: NJC -- Musical Brain Teaser Elvis is Everywhere by Mojo Nixon (I think it is on the Root Hog or Die CD, which also has "Debbie Gibson is Pregnant With My Two -Headed Love Child) bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:48:36 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Essential Recordings of the 90's The new RS lists the "Essential Recordings" of the 90's. Now these lists are always subjective, but there are a couple of things I feel inclined to comment on: 1. Of course, no Joni...and not because they're only mentioning "new" artists - - Van, Bob, the Rolling Stones, Peter Gabriel, Neil Young, all have entries on the list. They mention Tori & Jewel, who are obvious disciples of Joni (and inferior), but no Joni. Now Joni hasn't been Ms. Prolific in the 90's, but the quality of her 90's stuff is consistently superb - seems like TI, her Grammy winner, should've gotten a nod. 2. That omission notwithstanding, the list is pretty good, and reminds me that the nineties has been pretty decent - but they do include PJ Harvey's "Rid of Me" which is not only one of the worst records of the nineties, but one of the most unlistenable recordings ever made! I am grateful to David Wright for taking my copy. Bob NP: Steely Dan, "Haitian Divorce" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:04:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Rick & Penny Gibbons) Subject: Colorado (NJC) and long So many insightful points have been raised, but the two that I see going hand in hand as key elements in the tragedy, not only in US schools, but US society in general, are conflict resolution and Love thy neighbor as thyself. Certainly the schools are reaping the fruit of poor parenting, but, like Debra pointed out, the breakdown of community should be factored in as a root problem. Debra said we need to teach kids how to resolve conflict without violence. I think it goes even a step further than that....kids and adults alike, need to learn to want to resolve conflict, period. Whether it be some internal or emotional individual conflict or relational conflicts with others, resolve needs to be stressed as the right and healthy solution. In an indivual conflict how often is it the case that it's said "put it behind you"? Sorry folks, denial is not healthy, wounds don't heal in denial, they only fester, poorly masked at best, distortion takes root, and it always ends up biting ones butt later. Ever notice that the person who smugly says "put it behind you" or "get over it" is usually pretty self-righteous? Take note of the depth of their "close" friendships....they've probably got something hidden away and left unresolved too! Internal conflict shouldn't be run from!! When it comes to resolving conflicts with others, Oh Lord, has this American culture had a meltdown! We're encouraged to sue at the drop of a hat, protect our ass, and simply shun or ignore those we don't see eye to eye with. What a crock! When resolve with another is not first, at least attempted, what is the message sent? That "the neighbor" isn't loved or respected enough to be worth the effort to get things straighten out. The ones shunned or ignored time and time again, can easily withdraw into emotional isolation. In emotional isolation they not only take a hit to self esteem, but also lose their perspective and balance. Little things get dwelt on, and without a good measure of meaningful connection to others, whether we're talking individual or community level, it becomes very easy to slip past the "normal" perspective of thinking. It becomes a downward spiral, and everyone loses. This avoid seeking conflict resolve is a core issue indeed. But how are the kids suppose to learn the right way to confront personal problems or conflicts with others when their parents, and the bulk of society, runs from the proper solutions as well? I dearly wish I could say great things about conflict resolution practices in Christian circles, as I am one, but it isn't any better there either. Sometimes I think it's even more difficult, certainly more frustrating, for me anyway. All the "feeling" driven Christians simply stand on their "feelings of conviction" to avoid problems or people, dispite Scripture's teaching, and those battles can't be won with logic....they don't listen to Scriptual reasoning... that would be "confusing" to them....better to avoid resolve than risk being confused as they work something through. And it's not just in the feeling driven denominations that you get the message to avoid seeking resolve with others. Both my husband and I went to our exec. pastor a few years ago to ask for his help in confronting another who was slandering. We weren't angry, we just wanted to follow Scripture. The pastor said no, "wait until they feel guilty enough that they come to you, you'll come out looking better." And then he goes on to point out when someone has a problem with him, he always waits for that person to come to him. (pride rearing it's ugly head, imo) The clear message we were given, in this otherwise very sound church, was stay as far away from this "brother" as possible. Yet from the pulpit the Scripture is followed and the exact opposite of what this pastor told us is preached. "Love thy neighbor as thyself", "seek peace and pursue it". etc. This kind of stuff happens all the time and it is literally embarrassing to me as a Christian. (I wish I could apologize to everyone who's ever been hurt or baffled by a Christian, in the name of Christianity, as I've been hurt in that regard too.) IMO, healthy people work problems out, and proper conflict resolution methods should be taught to or re-learned by all. Simple case in point. I was a bit perplexed as I recently had this season's quota surpassed in the number of encounters I've had with people who can't look past old specifics to see a far more significant larger scope. I posted similarly on the JMDL that with all the tidbits we are all prevy to (via the jmdl) about Joni in her songs, that I hoped we didn't diminish the greater messages that her songs can mean to us when we learn actual specifics now. Poorly written by me, a list member wondered if the post had been targeted in her direction. Very shortly after reading the post, she emailed asking for clarification and/or discussion (the correct action). I quickly apologized for the miscommunication and relayed the clarification that it was a generalized post. (again, the correct action) That's what healthy people do....and then there's no problem "putting it behind you" because it's already been resolved!! Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the American way of taking care of things for all to many. Many would first rather stew or shun or plot revenge. IMHO that's where a major part of the root problems lie in the type of tragedy that happened in Littleton. The spiral down for years and generations of not resolving conflicts as soon as they are recognized, we're now reaping the bad fruit that greatly contribute to what is becoming our reoccurring, heartbreaking headlines. If we "love our neighbor as we love ourselves", we make the effort to resolve problems... even if there is no meaningful relationship involved. Liking another personally isn't even an issue in love thy neighbor....it's about respecting others as you want to be respected. And people find that they have more esteem in themselves when they take the courageous step in confronting difficult situations. It's a huge, long lasting, all encompassing, chain reaction. (Sorry if this has been to simplistic reasoning for many of ya'll) On my soap box, Penny ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:08:33 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Colorado[njc] I'm horrified by the event in Colorado, but I know that when I re-view (the good parts) of movies like 'Carrie' or, say, 'Heathers', I identify with the misfit and get a total rush from the annihilation inflicted on the prevailing social order. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:49:57 +0100 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: Colorado (NJC) Hi everyone One thing that I haven't seen in discussions on Colorado - here and in the press - is anything about masculinity. It seems to me that this also needs to be explored and particularly - in my maybe not-so-informed opinion cos I'm English so tell me if I'm wrong - masculinity in American society. Masculinity is in crisis pretty much throughout the West. Whereas men used to dominate employment opportunities now they have to share work space (except at the higher levels at the present time) with women. Whereas girls in school used to outperform boys in most subjects except science and maths, now girls are streets ahead in everything. Whereas heterosexual masculinity used to be prized universally and without question, now for many straight women, and of course for lesbians and gay men, it is an object of criticism and often scorn. If the problem seems to be worse in the US, it's perhaps because culturally the US is more hung up on, desperate to shore up masculinity than other countries, IMO. All the real archetypes of modern masculinity come from America. The woodsman. The cowboy. The outlaw. Never mind that in reality cowpokes were so-called because their sexual needs were met in particular ways. Nor that that most famous cowboy representation - the Marloboro Man - was gay. Nor that woodsmen like Thoreau and Whitman were also screaming queens. No never mind, because we effectively learned modern masculinity from these images and reproduced them ad nauseam as we lurched through the twentieth century trying desperately to keep women in kitchens with ever-shinier domestic appliances. As the millennium is upon us, men (and I realize I'm generalizing here, but the problem is a problem of masculinity and therefore a problem that belongs to men) don't seem to know how to respond to our rapidly changing environment. They don't seem to be able to 'evolve', to adapt to changes in family structures, workplace patterns - to no longer being the most important and respected person in their little worlds. So instead of adpating and changing they become defensive. They become more likely to behave aggressively (I'm referring here to both the bullying and the shooting in Colorado. They are more likely to think aggressive behaviour is mandated, acceptable, and as Sue's rather chilling post noted, 'cool'. Young men seem to be engaged - now as never before - in an economy of violence, in which they seem to feel that the only way to shore up their masculine importance is to behave in ever increasingly violent ways. Despite this crisis, masculinity is still largely celebrated in society, while un-masculinity never is. Instead we deride the femininity men have and make them hide it. This makes no sense. You don't see girls getting guns and shooting people dead in school, do you - or at least I haven't. And you don't see black kids doing that either - or at least I haven't. What is it with young white men? PX ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:40:00 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - April 24 1983: Joni performs at Wembley Arena in London 1995: Joni performs on the Late Show with David Letterman. See a couple of pictures and read a review or two at: http://www.jonimitchell.com/Letterman95.html - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:56:31 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: joni and massive attack Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 00:49:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicholas Bates Sounds like a great idea - what a shame that JM went for Thomas Dolby instead of Massive in her dog eat dog electronic phase . I suspect that Klein led her down that path and it wasn't all good. Yes, JM reborn as a triphopper, now that should kick start the career. Re "painting with.......", there may be something wrong with my ear but I think the sound is fine - and find the singing to be among JM's best. I think the whole package is just great but was interested in someones comments about video enhancement (do you mean something which makes the wrinkles dissappear?). JM certainly looks radiant on camera, suggesting that maybe she really had had a facelift (not our Joan!), but maybe its just 'video enhancement'! and while i'm here. Any ideas on 'lead balloon'? Is it about anyone in particular (David Geffen for example) or just a type. Not that I expect a definitive answer but its fun to speculate. Nicholas in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:59:10 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Colorado -- The German Connection (NJC) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:33:44 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Folks, well, we're in the middle of a heated debate again. As we discuss nearly all important issues here, the topic simply had to be brought up IMO. As difficult as it is, please let's try not to use hurtful and offensive language. I am quite sure that 99 % of NRA members also think this is a terrible incident, and the disagreement is about what needs to be done to prevent these things from happening. I strongly believe the NRA is lobbying for a wrong cause, but that does not make their members evil people. Rather than dragging on the pros and cons of gun ownership ad nauseam, I'd like to focus a bit on the "German aspect" of the Littleton tragedy. The suspects apparently worshipped Nazi ideology, and this has been especially hurtful to Germans. I am quoting an article from CNN Interactive to highlight this aspect. BONN, Germany (Reuters) -- Germany's media on Thursday cringed at America's worst school shooting, saying Adolf Hitler was still causing suffering and ruin decades after his death. "Hitler's murderous Children," splashed Germany's Bild newspaper, reporting the links between the Nazi leader and teenage gunmen Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold who shot themselves after taking lives of 13 others in Littleton, Colorado on Tuesday. "Adolf Hitler, this horrific dictator, is still causing suffering and ruin decades after his death," the paper said. The two teenage boys belonged to an outcast group called the "Trench Coat Mafia," so named because of their long black coats reminiscent of the Nazis' feared Gestapo secret police. Their talk was of guns, violence and their hero, Hitler. "Eric and Dylan, the neo-Nazis: when they met in the garage they spoke German. They worshipped Adolf Hitler like a rockstar," noted the Bonn Express tabloid in disgust. It was not lost on press commentaries that the day of the massacre, April 20, would have been Hitler's 110th birthday. The fact that the day passed off quietly in Germany itself, meanwhile, was not wholly accidental. Strictly enforced laws ban the display of all Nazi paraphernalia in Germany. The two Americans would have been hauled before the authorities merely for giving the Hitler salute, let alone for wearing Nazi insignias. "The American ideal of freedom of speech and thought meant no one took any notice of the boys wearing the Nazi swastika and listening to neo-Nazi bands," noted one German TV correspondent reporting from the school on state television. Tapes, pamphlets and CDs with neo-Nazi or racist content are illegal in Germany. The country's internal security service, the Federal Agency for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV), regularly raids publishers suspected of dealing in such material. Gigs by German skinhead and neo-Nazi bands are meticulously organized to avoid detection by police. Fans are often told to assemble at meeting places far away from the actual venue and only led there when the coast is clear. Last month a German court jailed the lead singer of a skinhead rock band for two years for songs condoning arson against refugee hostels and encouraging his audience to shout "Heil Hitler." The BfV says several thousand Germans, particularly in the depressed former Communist east, are drawn to the neo-Nazi rock music scene. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:31:20 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #177 NJC In a message dated 4/23/99 10:02:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jagaww@hotmail.com writes: << I find it more informative to be told what is going on in the news than read it most of the time, I love some of the documentaries i've seen, and don't care much for movie theaters so HBO is a god send. >> I also enjoy TV for entertainment and information, but I try to avoid supporting HBO in any way because HBO supports Don King and the rest of the corrupt and brutal "sport" of boxing. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:42:42 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colorado[njc] I don't recall Heathers but carrie ranks as one of my favourite films of all time. I loved it when i first saw it in 75. And how I envied her powers! And I have to admit even today I wish i could look at someone and they would go poof! up in flames! Childish and not very nice of course but i am only human.... bw colin jan gyn wrote: > I'm horrified by the event in Colorado, but I know that when I re-view (the > good parts) of movies like 'Carrie' or, say, 'Heathers', I identify with > the misfit and get a total rush from the annihilation inflicted on the > prevailing social order. > -jan - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:43:33 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colorado (NJC) and long > > > (Sorry if this has been to simplistic reasoning for many of ya'll) Not at all simplistic! Well written and explained. I agree with you. it is not only xtians who avoid this, but people in general in my experience. I nearly always to solve a conflict when it starts. By seeking out the person(s) and trying to resolve it in a friend ly way. However, the other side has to be willing to. Unfortunately, wiuth the situation i experinced where I used to live, it did not work. After several polite and even friendly discussions, where promises as to furture bhaviour were made, they were forgotten within days.On a one to one level with friends, i speak my mind gently if something bothers me. With real friends it works. I find out how good a friendship is in this situation!!! Soemtimes, one cannot say anything to a particlualr person without them getting mad and screaming. I leave those 'friendships' alone. recntly at a meeting, someone spoke, directing part of what they said to me. I became uncomfotable but before I got offended, I quietly, in private asked for it to be repeated. I had misheard what he said. So I saved myself and him, and possibly others, from more discomfort by asking for calrification rather than doing what I would have done in the past and jumping down his throat! I might add that in my 18 years with John, we have always resvolved any conflicts this way. We never go to bed without a resolution nor do we part (when we have to go out or whatever)with anything left hanging. Of course conflicts between us are easier dealt with because of the level of love respect and trust invloved. Not always present with others which makes it harder to reslove conflicts with aquaintances or strangers. I learned this as an adult. When I was kid NOTHING was discussed, evrything was swept under the carpet and certainly NEVER EVER discussed outside the home. My biggest crime, as far as family is concerned, was blowing the whistle and letting the secrets out of the bag. They still live with thier secrets and conflicts and I am free of them. bw colin > > > On my soap box, > Penny - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #179 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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