From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #177 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, April 22 1999 Volume 04 : Number 177 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Colorado (njc) [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Colorado the hard truth NJC ["Sarah Whitaker (ADC Administration)" ] Prince (njc) [evian ] Re: more Joni quitar questions [Howard Wright ] Peter Gabriel, Anne Sexton, Laurie Anderson (NJC) ["Cupit, Greg" ] Re: Against Therapy - not much Joni content [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: colorado--njc [Debra Kaufman ] Re: Colorado... (NJC) - parenting [MGVal@aol.com] Colorado (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re[2]: Colorado... (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] I BEG OF YOU (NJC) [Russell Bowden ] Re: Colorado... (NJC) - parenting ["Kakki" ] Re: Colorado (NJC) [catman ] Re: Colorado... (NJC) [catman ] Re: I BEG OF YOU (NJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] (NJC) ... and Bob Dylan ["Don Rowe" ] Re: colorado njc ["Winfried Hühn" ] An Apology NJC ["Winfried Hühn" ] RE: Re: colorado njc [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Re: An Apology NJC [dsk ] RE: An Apology NJC [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Re: (NJC) ... and Bob Dylan [jan gyn ] Re: An Apology NJC ["Winfried Hühn" ] NJC -- Musical Brain Teaser ["Don Rowe" ] A CDNOW Dream (some JC) ["Barnicle, Kathryn" ] Re: Prince [j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi] "Court's" back in session... [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: NJC -- Musical Brain Teaser [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: NJC -- Musical Brain Teaser [jan gyn ] Thanks Bob, jan and Les (NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] Re: Thanks Bob, jan and Les (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) [catman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:14:41 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Colorado (njc) On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:56:39 -0700 "Kakki" wrote: > Why does there seem to be such avoidance at > looking at the root causes of these incidents? > ... and I think there is, to make a gross > understatement, a definite gap here in parental > and school responsibility. Certainly most of the responsibility belongs to the parents and the school personnel, but what about the peers of these students? The trench coat mafia didn't come into existence overnight - it must have been a process of several years. At some point in time, these guys must have been pretty normal kids. Why/how did they become anti-social? How much did rejection from peers contribute to the equation? I think something that is lacking in school systems is basic education about how to treat other people and strong discouragement of ridicule. IMO, this also has to change, along with taking threats seriously and more parental involvement. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:34:47 +1000 From: "Sarah Whitaker (ADC Administration)" Subject: Re: Colorado the hard truth NJC In response to several posts about the Colorado tragedy, I just wanted to make a few points. In Australia, on 28 April, 1996 there was the worst massacre carried out by a single gunman ever recorded in peace times . Martin Bryant gunned down 35 people in a popular tourist area using a high powered semi-automatic weapon. There was no apparent motive, but he was viewed as an outsider by the tiny community in which he had grown up in and continued to live in. Having an extremely low IQ, verging on retardation, he was taunted throughout his high school years by other students and became rather introverted during his twenties. His neigbours would later describe him as "quiet, polite, kept to himself". His anger at being considered an outsider/weirdo angered him to a point where one day he thought "I'll show them all". A psychiatrist would later say that his mental condition did not allow him to see or feel the consequences of his own actions. The combination of these emotions, and the fact he was able to get his hands on a powerful gun easily formed together to create one of the worst tragedies in Australian history, second only to the genocide of the aborigines. Kate was right when she said that: <> In retrospect it would have been easier to disable Martin Bryant from acquiring/buying a firearm than it would have to cure his social disease. Since Port Arthur, over the past three years the Australian government launched a massive buy back scheme, where each citizen had the opportunity to sell their firearms back to the government or declare them at local police stations - no questions asked. To date 383,175 firearms have been declared and $190.8 million spent on the scheme - not bad for a country of 19 million. And for any of the cynics out there, the statistics speak for themselves: % of Murders committed in Australia by firearm: 1996 31.7% (before the buyback) 1997 21.3% (during the buyback) 1998 not released yet Check it out at the Australian Bureau of Statistics site: http://www.abs.gov.au/ I would like to see the percentage of murders by firearms in the US to see if they differ greatly to the Australian stats so if anyone has these available please send to me. A 10.4% drop in one year is a start. Unfortunately, the murders via other weapons (ie: knives etc) went up so the government are now introducing strict knife laws, but lets face it, it would be extremely hard to kill 15 students in a school, 35 tourists at a tourist site, 24 children in a kindergarten class (remember Dunblane...) with a knife no matter how big. For some reason in the US it doesn't seem as easy to just ban guns and I don't understand this. People can always wave self-defence, the right to bare arms, Waco, Kosovo, NRA etc in your face but at the end of the day the cold, hard facts are that innocent people are being killed, with no motive, no war, no religious issues, in peaceful, democratic countries. People seem to go on these killing sprees not for any particular "cause" or "crusade" but because they can as the means to carry them out are available to them. The bottom line is that less people will be killed if guns are outlawed, there is no argument against that. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:41:31 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Colorado (njc) Marian wrote: > Certainly most of the responsibility belongs to the parents and the school > personnel, but what about the peers of these students? The trench coat > mafia didn't come into existence overnight - it must have been a process of > several years. At some point in time, these guys must have been pretty > normal kids. Why/how did they become anti-social? How much did rejection > from peers contribute to the equation? I think something that is lacking in > school systems is basic education about how to treat other people and strong > discouragement of ridicule. IMO, this also has to change, along with taking > threats seriously and more parental involvement. These are all large questions with probably a wide variety of answers. Ideally, the administration and faculty of a school should have zero tolerance for any harassment and ridicule of students. But it is the common unfortunate reality in parts of the U.S. today that students are allowed to act in any way they choose without any objection or repercussions. How did that happen? In part because of numerous instances of parents objecting to any disciplining of their children by the schools and teachers being actually afraid of their students, the parents and actions which could be taken against them if they try. I cannot, of course, speak for other regions, but this has been the reality in Southern California schools for many years now. In many parts of Los Angeles, good, qualified teachers have left the profession in droves and gone into other careers because of the insanity of the situation. The L.A. school district has had to hire people who have never taught and have no teaching credential (normally required by law in the state) on an emergency basis to fill the shortages. As I mentioned before in another post, there are only recently new rules to protect the teachers and students from weapons and violence and to hold parents accountable for their children's misbehavior. But also, the teachers cannot always know what is going on out of their earshot range on a school campus. They can't be everywhere at once and know everything going on. Ideally, they should have had enough training and education to be able to see the signs of anti-social behavior or students who may be perpetrators. But even when they do recognize all the signs, many are extremely wary of intervening with students inappropriate behavior or notifying the parents. This is just what I've witnessed in the region where I live and is partly why I keep maintaining that what first needs to be fixed is the attitude of the parents. I think of a recent discussion I had with a friend which just made me sick. She is a very good mother, well-educated and a nice person. But her son was disciplined by a teacher in school along with a few other of his friends for some inappropriate behavior. My friend and her husband have banded together with the parents of the other boys and they are actually having weekly meetings plotting ways to get this teacher fired. One father later encouraged his son to defy and be a smart-ass to the teacher and when he did, they all cheered him on. This is absolutely incredible to me. Something is very seriously wrong out there - the balance is indeed undone. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:15:05 -0600 From: evian Subject: Prince (njc) > You know, I've been thinking about Prince lately and have come > to the conclusion that he's really a singles (or more accurately, > songs) artist stuck in the album form. I own all but 2 or 3 > of his albums, and when I think about his work it's individual > songs that stand out to me rather than albums. Even the albums > which I like the most (_Purple Rain_, _Sign of the Times_, _Gold > Experience_) are more a collection of good songs than a good > album to me. > Well, I have been thinking about this, and I think Michael makes some good points. For example, "Gett Off" is one of my favorite all-time songs -- but the rest of the album didn't jump out and grab me. Same goes for Graffitti Bridge -- love about 3 tracks, but the rest.. well.. just doesn't seem to cohere. However, for Prince's 80's work, I think it does work well as individual albums. I am thinking 1999, Purple Rain, Around the World in a Day, and Sign o' the Times. Each of these albums reminds me of Joni's albums, in that they seem to trod onto new ground. However, LoveSexy and... oh what's it called...the one with "Kiss"... Under the Cherry Moon (?) just don't seem to cohere as albums. I think that after Sign o' the Times, Prince (ok, THE ARTIST) really started to work better as a singles artist. I used to wait for the day a new Prince album was released.... now, I wait to hear the single... but I am still not giving up hope that he will knock us down with another Sign o' the Times, or 1999, or Purple Rain! Evian np: "creep" -- TLC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:52:15 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Re: more Joni quitar questions From: CarltonCT@aol.com >Can anyone tell us if Joni has always played a steel string on her >albums? I think so. The only Joni song where nylon string guitar appears is (I think) Court and Spark, and this part is not played by Joni. >Has she ever played a 12 string? Are there other musicians who play 12 >strings with open tunings? Yes, Joni has used 12-strings quite a bit. Don Juan's is chock full of them - just one of the reasons why the tunings for these songs are much harder to work out than on her other albums! The fact that she triple-tracks most guitar parts on DJRD doesn't help either! I think "Free Man in Paris" and "Raised on Robbery" also use 12-strings, but I'm sure there are others. >We know Joni went to Staten Island to buy a mandolin. Did she ever play >it, or another stringed instrument (other than dulcimer) on anything we >can hear? The only song where this could be the case is "Roses Blue". There's a ukelele/mandolin type sound playing tremolo notes in the background throughout this song. I seem to remember there are no credits for it on the album. It could be Joni, though I have a feeling someone else played the part. Other than that, I think the only string instruments Joni played on her albums are guitar (acoustic & electric), dulcimer and piano. Howard ******************************************************* Howard.Wright@ed.ac.uk Well it's a cold bowl of chilli When love lets you down Neil Young ******************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:04:10 +1000 From: "Cupit, Greg" Subject: Peter Gabriel, Anne Sexton, Laurie Anderson (NJC) A few posts ago Gina wrote: <> Wow!! Yeah!!! I'm a big Gabriel fan, as well as Laurie Anderson. Gabriel's Mercy Street got me into Anne Sexton's poetry which is truly brilliant and often confronting. I love Anderson's and Gabriel's versions of Excellent Birds, very zennish to me. Greg from Tassie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:08:36 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Re: more guitar questions Clark wrote:- < We know Joni went to Staten Island to buy a mandolin. Did she ever play it, or another stringed instrument (other than dulcimer) on anything we can hear? Are there any recordings of her when she played the ukulele? There's an instrument played on Roses Blue which I used to think was a mandolin. However, now I'm not so sure. I only have that album on vinyl and my equipment for playing vinyl is not that good. It's a stringed instrument, played tremolo, may be a balalaika or something? Have a listen and let me know your opinion. Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:40:31 +1000 From: "Cupit, Greg" Subject: videos Randy Remote wrote: <> Shadows and Light is only $57.99 at CDNow and if you go through Wally's Joni page, the page gets some sort of benefit. So let's support Wally, save some money as well. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:17:23 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Against Therapy - not much Joni content In a message dated 19/04/99 04:31:06, CarltonCT@aol.com writes a very lucid critique on possible pitfalls of therapy, concluding with: << Some people are lucky to find knowledgeable, client focused therapists who can indeed give them appropriate guidance. And some therapists are opportunistic and predatory and don't want to release a client because it means very simply that they will be denied their income and their power over that person. Therapy should foster a person's independence, but that goal is antithetical to the practice because too often the therapist imposes his own views and agenda on the process. >> Thank you for writing in such a reasoned and non-prejudiced way. The key expressions you use are "client focused" and "therapy should foster a person's independence". Where these factors are present, and the therapist can have unconditional positive regard for the client, there is a chance for some good to come out of it. Maybe I was lucky in that I had a superb therapist, who was personally recommended to me by someone I trust. Not everyone will be that fortunate. I don't know about anywhere else, but in the UK there are professional organisations with whom reputable counsellors/therapists will be accredited. Read around, shop around, and remember, the client always has the choice of whether to carry on. If something's not working for you, you can walk away. Walking away might even be a very empowering experience in itself. Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:28:26 -0500 From: Debra Kaufman Subject: Re: colorado--njc I agree with Debra S. and Kakki that we need to use this awful opportunity to teach all the children, not just our own, how to resolve conflicts without violence. I've always tried to teach my children this, but have discovered it's not enough that THEY know--they have to live with their peers who have not been taught this. I've been advocating a conflict resolution program for years in the elementary school, and in fact we had one with our former principal. This should be a standard program in all schools, because unfortunately many children don't learn this at home--quite the contrary. I noticed this esp. in the U.S. South, where I've lived since 1980. Almost everyone owns some kind of gun, and there is still much prejudice and violence. I was shocked when we moved here to see how many murders there are (usually of family members and lovers), so you know in many cases there was violence leading up to the final act of murder. Add to this the t.v. culture of Jerry Springer encouraging his "guests(?)" to duke it out and shows like "Cops" where we see people threatening and being hauled out cursing and shooting. These show a very warped idea of human nature. If children saw more shows (if they must watch tv) like "I'll Fly Away," they could learn an alternate reality, a more personal and realistic one, one that teaches us to strive for noble goals like consideration of others, love, and our part in a community. Television has definitely hurt our idea of community, where people hole up in front of the screen instead of taking an evening stroll and greeting each other on the porch. Thanks for the "spiral and gyre" notes, Winfried and Catman. I've always believed in the spiral as an image for life. If you don't get a thing right, it comes around again later and you try to deal with it then with your more altered life skills. And if you still can't or won't, it comes around again. We have many opportunities to get it right. Listening to Leonard Cohen's "Democracy Is Coming to the U.S.A." heartened me some. I also love his lyric "Ring the bells that still can ring forget your perfect offering there is a crack, a crack in everything that's how the light gets in." Debra K **************************************************************** "The end is nothing. The road is all." -- Willa Cather ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:21:26 EDT From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: Colorado... (NJC) - parenting In a message dated 99-04-22 00:41:04 EDT, David.Wright@oberlin.edu writes: > I think maybe to stop things like this from happening again, we >should start looking at American society in a totally new way. I'm not >sure what that way is. > > In a semi-facetious way, I think of the issue of "parent control." Everyone has probably heard that old saw: "you need to pass a test and get licensed to drive a car, but anyone can be a parent." I'm not advocating pre-pregnancy licensing exams, but the nuts and bolts of parenting are a factor in this tragedy. Kakki pointed out in an earlier post that she was allowed a lot of freedom during her teenaged years and that that was balanced by the fact that her parents made sure she knew right from wrong and the ramifications of violating their trust. She also brought up how they would be concerned if she was getting involved in a lifestyle that embraced hatred and violence. How were they able to instill that in her? I think that a lot of parents today lack the personal tools to handle their kid being involved in such a lifestyle or to provide them with the skills to look at it and dismiss it. Yesterday, my 17 y.o. daughter, Signe, and I were at a local picnic. The entertainment was by a group of teenagers who call themselves "Hep Cats" and do swing dancing. Signe pointed out the Goth kids hanging out on the fringes of the crowd and we mused about the contrast. I think that kids have to explore different lifestyles, philosophies, ideas and cultures, but when these explorations accentuate the darker aspects of human nature or add fuel to the fire of a depressive personality, some sort of intervention is necessary. I just don't know how or what. What works with Signe, does not work with my younger son and would not work with my neighbor's boy. Getting the same message across so that it hits home with different personalities is one of the biggest parenting challenges. It involves really "knowing" your kid and that takes work as well as knowing your own self. It seems to me that we have so many books and special interest groups for parenting infants...the "terrible twos".......pre-schoolers, but after that, there's a void. And I know too many parents who believe, "it's just a phase," when it comes to their child's behavior or a rush to medicate a la ADD. And these are the children who are at risk when they explore the darker groups, the role-playing games like "Vampire;" the intolerent Christian groups; anything that fills the void of "who I am/who can I be" that they are not getting at home. I know from personal experience as a former "Moonie," that filled void was what drew me into the group. There is no one simplistic answer to avoiding a repeat of the CO tragedy, but I do believe that you can peel it back to the core of a child's developing self-esteem and self-love and how that has been nurtured and guided towards maturity. A calculated and explicit message that I try to instill in all three of my children, (in degrees/complexity appropriate for their ages), that they can be gay, they can be straight, they can have a college degree, they can pump gas and that as long as they love themselves and others in a peaceful, emotionally healthy way, they are successful people. It's just not always easy in this world. MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:04:03 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Colorado (NJC) I swore I was going to stay out of this...but Marcel wrote: >Kosovo was a Russian colony... >Let the flames begin. marcel deste. OK, here's the first one, buddy! Perhaps studying a little history or GEOGRAPHY would be in order. :) And Colin wrote: >Love thy neighbour as thyself. Who takes that seroiously? That's one of the saddest things I've read in a long time. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:12:26 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Colorado... (NJC) Kakki hits the nail on the head with: << But they also made damn sure I knew the difference between right and wrong, illegal and self-destructive behavior and common sense. They gave me a lot of rope but I always knew the party would indeed be over if I ever did something to violate their trust in me.>> Kakki, I couldn't agree more with you on this parenting issue! Although we have a lot of work to do in the gun dept., the simple truth is that lots of parents have quit doing their job. (Your parents sound like a lot like mine, btw...) And it's REAL naive to think that schools have the time & resources to teach VALUES to our children...besides a basic education, they ALREADY have to teach drugs, sex ed, etc. that parents have dropped the ball on. As I mentioned yesterday, my wife teaches high school in Greenville (she's currently in San Fran to accept a grant from Toyota for some Geometry Projects), she works her regular schoolday, brings home stacks and stacks of papers to grade and post, talks to parents, prepares tests, etc. Summers OFF!?! Yeah, right! She has to attend classes during the summer and establish curriculum to stay certified in secondary Math. Throw in meetings, School Board interfaces, etc. and she's CONSTANTLY working in education. The pay sucks, teacher turnover is very high and shortages abound. And to turn the screw even worse, the School District wants to hold the TEACHERS accountable for the student's scores on standardized tests. I do a lot of volunteering in the public schools. I'm currently working as a tutor, mentor, and leading a Jr. Achievement class. It AMAZES me how little respect these kids have for adults!! They obviously are raised in an environment where there are no serious consequences for unacceptable behavior. I don't have a lot of answers, but I CAN tell you that pointing the fingers at the schools is NOT the right step... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:06:22 -0700 From: Russell Bowden Subject: I BEG OF YOU (NJC) KILL YOUR TELEVISION, NOW!!!! I did, and that is one BIG monkey off my back. Try it. Love, Russ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:00:01 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Colorado... (NJC) - parenting MG wrote: > Kakki pointed out in an earlier post that she was allowed a lot of freedom > during her teenaged years and that that was balanced by the fact that her > parents made sure she knew right from wrong and the ramifications of > violating their trust. She also brought up how they would be concerned if she > was getting involved in a lifestyle that embraced hatred and violence. How > were they able to instill that in her? Probably by what is now considered the old-fashioned way. They weren't perfect by any means nor were they particularly religious, but they did start me out with a spirtual base, the Golden Rule and a little bit of the good old "fear of God." They also did not hand out money to me. I had to earn my own through outside jobs. They were honest and kept their word. When I became a teenager, my mother sat me down and very matter of factly told me that I could have a lot of freedom but I knew the basics that were expected of me and, if I blew it, that freedom would be severely curtailed. I knew she meant it and was not about to test her on it. She only had to tell me one time. It was a trust pact and it served as a built-in deterrent to keep me in check. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:26:45 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colorado (NJC) Steve Dulson wrote: > I swore I was going to stay out of this...but Marcel wrote: > > >Kosovo was a Russian colony... > >Let the flames begin. marcel deste. > > OK, here's the first one, buddy! Perhaps studying a little > history or GEOGRAPHY would be in order. :) > > And Colin wrote: > > >Love thy neighbour as thyself. Who takes that seroiously? > > That's one of the saddest things I've read in a long time. It is a very sad thing indeed. > > > ############################################################## > Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com > "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: > http://www.tinkersown.com > "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" > http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ > "The Living Tradition Concert Series" > (Website soon!) - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:30:34 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colorado... (NJC) Personally, I think teaching is one of the most important jobs one can do. Unfortunately, it is little respected now. Teacvhers are there to educate-not to do the job of raising well adjusted adults. That is the parents job. Not that teachers are perfect-I recall far too many who relied on shaming and abuse to get what they wanted. However, the good ones, who respected the children, are well remembered-by me at any rate! bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:31:57 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: I BEG OF YOU (NJC) In a message dated 4/22/99 12:08:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, russbow@earthlink.net writes: > KILL YOUR TELEVISION, NOW!!!! I did, and that is one BIG monkey off my back. > > Try it. > > Love, > Russ You don't have to beg *me*, Russ. I haven't watched TV in 15 years. My kids haven't watched ANY tv for three solid years and before that only a tiny amount of public TV. Would like to discuss this with you further off-list. It is a tremendous comfort to me not to have that stupid box and its contents in my home. I hate it. It makes feel ill, just as drugs would taken by someone who does not need them. I don't like the side effects. Happily TV free in rural Western Massachusetts, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:55:13 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) Hmmm ... this is an interesting premise. However, the cloak of "facts and reality" I find a bit thin in the following places -- >This is why possession of guns was incorporated into the >constitution, to protect the population from the government. >Where was the discussion when the government killed 86 people >at Waco? Was that ok. First of all, the attention of the Federal Government was drawn to Waco NOT by the religious conviction or moral stance of the Branch Davidians, but by the fact that they were stockpiling an arsenal. Second, Waco was a mass suicide, which likely would have happened eventally anyway. And in the end, what good did their aresenal serve? How much protection from the government did David Koresh's guns provide him and his followers? None. They were unable to stand off the ATF and FBI despite their guns. So do you really expect that our population, with all it's weaponry, would be safe from the United States Marines, Army, Air Force, or National Guard, should they decide upon a similar course of action now going on in Kosovo? Sorry, but in the battle of AK-47 assault rifle vs. Apache Helicopter gunship, my money's on the choppper. Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:53:12 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: (NJC) ... and Bob Dylan You know, I'm really starting to worry that anything I ever want to see again is going to mean seeing Bob Dylan again. And this isn't just concerts we're talking about any more. I mean, how long will it be before you see notices like: The Kirov Ballet ... and Bob Dylan Van Gogh Retrospective ... and Bob Dylan Guys and Dolls and Bob Dylan Episode I: The Phantom Menace ... and Bob Dylan Cardinals vs. Cubs and Bob Dylan "Our guests on This Week ... Secretary of State Madeline Albright, Presidential Candidate Pat Buchanan ... and Bob Dylan." It's all a dream I'm having awake ... Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:58:37 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: colorado njc Mark wrote: > And > when it is teenage kids that are doing the killing, kids whose lives > or physical well-being is not being compromised or threatened in any > way, then I have to believe that something very basic has gone > terribly wrong in our world and locking up the guns is not going to > make it right. > No it certainly won't. But it will greatly increase their potential victims' chances of staying alive. And that's enough for taking action. When there is a way to prevent people from getting killed, this must have priority, even if it's not a cure for the underlying problem. The easy availability of guns is not the starting point of the causal link, but it is the decisive element which is responsible for the catastrophy to happen in such a terrible way. When I was an exchange student in Anaheim, Orange County, one day, my Spanish exchange student buddy Luciano stood at our door, shaking and crying. His host dad, a hitherto well-respected manager (I believe it was McDonnel Douglas) had been told to quit his job, had gotten himself dead drunk and then was running around in his house, firing with his pump-action rifle at everything and everybody that would move. Luckily, he was too drunk to hit anybody. He was an alcoholic, of course, like so many people in our societies. There are many reasons and ways in which humans can lose control and "take revenge" at their peers. The only way to avoid guns becoming a part of the madness is not to have them available in the first place. BTW this is only one reason why guns should be illegal. There are many more. The latest news we are getting here is that there are people in Colorado lobbying for laws to legalize the carrying of concealed weapons with the argument that then, the teachers could have carried such concealed weapons and killed the two juvenile lunatics. It's hardly imagineable that such an already insane event can still be increased in its insanity. Sometimes, you Americans really scare the shit out of me. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:26:07 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: An Apology NJC Winfried wrote: >sometimes you Americans really scare the shit out of me I must apologize for this unjust and unfair sentence, and I hereby hole-heartedly do. Especially given the fact that 50 years ago, we had people here who thought it was O.K. to extinguish a whole people for purely hygienical reasons. That is even more scarier. Nevertheless, mine was a very typical reaction, and it shows you how incidents like the one I was relating to are perceived outside of your country and contribute to the bad reputation of/prejudices against Americans around the globe. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:31:59 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: Re: colorado njc Winfried wrote: <<>> I assume this asinine blanket statement will be rescinded shortly. - --Michael, no supporter of most of America's culture, including the gun part. NP: C&S ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:47:54 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: An Apology NJC Winfried Hühn wrote: > > >sometimes you Americans really scare the shit out of me. > > I must apologize for this unjust and unfair sentence... > Nevertheless, mine was a very typical reaction, and it shows you how > incidents like the one I was relating to are perceived outside of your > country and contribute to the bad reputation of/prejudices against > Americans around the globe. Winfried, My first thought when I read your statement was "me too." So from my point of view, there's no apology needed, and I don't feel un-American saying that. The more viewpoints we're given, the better off we all are. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:47:06 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: An Apology NJC Winfried wrote: <<>> Thanks. I was a little shocked! :-) <<>> It also shows that Americans aren't alone in unfairly extrapolating from one event and its media depictions to a mistaken generalization. The U.S. has already been called an unsafe place once in this discussion, in part because of this event. Kosovo right now is an unsafe place. The U.S. has its share of unsafe places, no doubt, but on the whole it falls closer to the safe end of the spectrum, IMO. There are a wide variety of factors that make the banning of firearms difficult in the United States, and the populace's unwillingness to do so is only one, especially because the public is very, very divided on the issue. We have our work to do, for sure, but please don't let one incident, no matter how horrific, color your perceptions of an entire country. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:53:05 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: (NJC) ... and Bob Dylan At 11:53 AM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >You know, I'm really starting to worry that anything I ever want to >see again is going to mean seeing Bob Dylan again. And this isn't >just concerts we're talking about any more. I mean, how long will it >be before you see notices like: >The Kirov Ballet ... and Bob Dylan >Van Gogh Retrospective ... and Bob Dylan >Guys and Dolls and Bob Dylan >Episode I: The Phantom Menace ... and Bob Dylan >Cardinals vs. Cubs and Bob Dylan >"Our guests on This Week ... Secretary of State Madeline Albright, >Presidential Candidate Pat Buchanan ... and Bob Dylan." >Don Rowe Ha! I like it! Dharma and Greg... and Bob Dylan Mulder and Scully... and Bob Dylan Dolce and Gabbana... and Bob Dylan "The Band Played On"... and Bob Dylan - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:03:40 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: An Apology NJC dsk schrieb: > Winfried Hühn wrote: > > > > >sometimes you Americans really scare the shit out of me. > > > > I must apologize for this unjust and unfair sentence... > > The more viewpoints we're given, the better off we all are. > > Debra Shea Yes, but it is also about the way, these are presented. I must and certainly will judge myself by the same standards which I apply to the statements of others. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:19:04 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: NJC -- Musical Brain Teaser Okay, this is killing me. Recently heard the novelty ditty "Elvis Is Everywhere", but of course, since it was on a micro-wattage local college radio station, they didn't announce the artist. Somebody help me, I need a good night's sleep -- as if you haven't been able to tell from my posts today! Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:19:58 -0400 From: "Barnicle, Kathryn" Subject: A CDNOW Dream (some JC) Yesterday, after reading the great review by Michael Paz of David Lahm's new CD, I immediately hopped over to CDNow (through the JM homepage, thanks Wally!) to purchase the album along with some other albums that I have been wanting. Thanks Paz for the great info. I can't wait for the arrival of my package. Now for the dream part ....... Last night, I dreamed that I was at the CDNOW offices to complain about my order. The office had great paintings on the wall (kindof Rousseau like, what I envision in the Jungle Line). Paz was working there as a guy who gets the CD orders (on pink slips) and fills them. My package had arrived with a non-Joni David Lahm CD (kindof country western cover, cowboy boots, etc.), an empty B-52's CD case, and the package had been stuffed with some other plastic CD cases that were old and scratched (but with no CD's). Paz was helping me find the right Lahm CD and was excited to hear that there were other people out there who was aware of David Lahm. He said that CDNOW puts old CD cases in packages to protect the real CD's from damage. A type of recycling. Then I was outside walking along a highway road construction project and Ally McBeal was there. Don't remember the rest from there. Dr. Sigmnondegreen, please help this troubled child! What does it all mean? Katie from the Cape ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:11:00 +0300 From: j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi Subject: Re: Prince Is the Prince B-side 'Love And Money' cover of the Joni track? - --jussi NP: Julia Fordham (1st) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:22:05 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: "Court's" back in session... OK, so I hashed out all the stuff about C&S lyrically, but what about the music - so much to be said in that category! Some random comments for your perusal... The opening piano chords, sounding just like a sunrise - perhaps this album more than ANY other really demonstrates Joni's "painting with music" concept as the musical textures are so dense throughout. Just looking at the players: The LA Express (Tom Scott, John Guerin, Max Bennett, Chuck Findley) The Crusaders (Joe Sample, Larry Carlton, Wilton Felder) These guys were a fave of mine in the 70's; "Southern Comfort" & "Free As The Wind" were great records... Robbie Robertson, Jose Feliciano, Crosby and Nash, and more contributing as well...no wonder this whole album sounds so good! And knowing that Joni is "conducting" this orchestra is what makes it gel - I know from reading on the homepage that she had some difficulty getting Sample to play what she was hearing in her head, that he was just playing "notes". She wanted him to play cascading waves... The variety of sounds and the "genuine-ness" of sounds also plays a big part - instead of synthesized woodwinds, we're treated to REAL woodwinds - and strings, especially the strings - I'm listening right now to "Same Situation" and just marveling at the pure beauty of the string section...and I don't see it mentioned in the credits specifically, but I hear a harp in places too! The unique sound of Joni's multi-tracked vocals, to hear her harmonizing with herself which she does so effectively also in HOSL. The melding of the vocal sound, her gliding and swooping and the interplay between her voice and the instruments is amazing. Then there's her second "mini-symphony" - Down to You (The first being "Judgement of the Moon & Stars", the third of course being "Paprika Plains") Listen to this song, forget the words, just listen to the music, the stark intro, the build-up adding instruments, especially the musical interlude between "Written on your spirit this sad song, Love is gone" and the next verse "Everything comes and goes, pleasure moves on too early, etc.". The music in between is some of the prettiest music written ever! We talk about Joni as singer, songwriter, painter, musician, but she ARRANGED this along with Tom Scott, so another feather in her Jacquelyn-of-all-trades cap! If I had to make any criticism of this album sonically, listening to the drums, they seem pretty unimaginative, but I guess with so many other sounds coming and going, the drums provide the anchor to give the songs adhesion. But that's nit-picking...I suppose at this point Joni had the record company's backing to spend a lot of money to get the sounds she wanted, and combined with the best session players of her day she assembled a powerhouse of an orchestra to make a true gem. Bob, seeking solace from the madness around me with some Joni music... NP: Trouble Child ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:29:51 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: NJC -- Musical Brain Teaser Mojo Nixon & Skid Roper ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: NJC -- Musical Brain Teaser Author: "Don Rowe" at fdinet Date: 4/22/99 1:19 PM Okay, this is killing me. Recently heard the novelty ditty "Elvis Is Everywhere", but of course, since it was on a micro-wattage local college radio station, they didn't announce the artist. Somebody help me, I need a good night's sleep -- as if you haven't been able to tell from my posts today! Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:38:07 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: NJC -- Musical Brain Teaser I think it's Mojo Nixon. - -jan "Levis are nowhere" At 01:19 PM 4/22/99 -0700, you wrote: >Okay, this is killing me. Recently heard the novelty ditty "Elvis Is >Everywhere", but of course, since it was on a micro-wattage local >college radio station, they didn't announce the artist. Somebody help >me, I need a good night's sleep -- as if you haven't been able to tell >from my posts today! > >Don Rowe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:53:52 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Thanks Bob, jan and Les (NJC) I will, in fact, sleep peacefully tonight -- I guess this means I'll have to be "checkin' out my Mojo" on the next trip to the CD Exchange (really cool used/tradin' CD place here in St. Lou-ee) :-) Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:57:59 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Thanks Bob, jan and Les (NJC) Don sez: <> And then you won't have Nixon to kick around anymore...:~) Bob NP: Herbie & Stevie, "St. Louis Blues" (coincidentally) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:42:49 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) Interesting take but I disagree as follows (1) The fact was that they did not have anywheres near the "arsenal" that was expected to be found. There were no machine guns or grenade launchers and they werent abusing their kids. Shouldnt the government KNOW that such an arsenal exists BEFORE it uses gas that ignites and kills 86 people ? Or is it given an out if it says "oops". (2) The film "Rules of Engagement" clearly shows from infrared camera footage obtained under the freedom of information act that it wasnt a mass suicide. people were trying to get out as the soldiers shot through the door. (3) There is no question that the 2nd amendment was placed in the constitution for the purpose indicated. (4) Guerilla warfare ALWAYS involves heavier armed organized army vs lesser armed guerillas. I wont ask you if you ever heard about the Soviet experience in Afghanistan but trust me the Apaches dont always win. Send your questions about this to the Mujehadin they will support my assertion. cheers marcel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:43:34 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colorado, the hard truth (NJC) MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > Interesting take but I disagree as follows (1) The fact was that they did not > have anywheres near the "arsenal" that was expected to be found. There were > no machine guns or grenade launchers and they werent abusing their kids. They definately were abusing their children. Abuse is not just physical or sexual. It includes emotional, mental and spiritual.bw colin > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:54:38 +0100 From: "gerry mcnee" Subject: pwwam my first time hi ,another newbie with his first post .i've had great fun reading all things joni since i joined the list my love of joni was a very slow affair .i found her extremely hard to get into initially but now ,well can i say i heard the light (just did).my bias is towards the 70's joni ,her entire output for this period being imho the most incredible music ever recorded .the pinnacle of course hijera.regarding the pwwam video i thought her performance stunning .the sound on mine was superb .comes love would make an incredible single to promote the next album , im sure it will be on it whatever it is, she could even have portishead remix it perhaps, it had that kind of feel to it especially the bass. someone alert the record company.could you imagine joni climbing the singles chart,well in the u.k at least i dont know if portishead have hit the u.s.a. or other places.this post might never arrive not only am i new to the list this whole internet experience is a first. np chloe goodchild SURA ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #177 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. 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