From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #175 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, April 22 1999 Volume 04 : Number 175 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- jaco [Bounced Message ] 12-strings and guns [Louis Lynch ] NJC: Colorado (2=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A2 more)?= [Kate Tarasenko ] Re: "The Second Coming" vs. "Slouching.." ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: Colorado, the hard truth. [MDESTE1@aol.com] RE: Colorado and new york (njc) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: "The Second Coming" vs. "Slouching.."NJC [catman ] Re: Colorado, the hard truth. [catman ] Re: Re[4]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) [RMuRocks@aol.c] Re: Joni & Jackson Browne (i'm Not To Blame) ["Mark or Travis" ] NJC: Dave Brubeck Quartet ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: colorado njc ["Mark or Travis" ] thoughts on this place we live - NJC [Les Irvin ] Re: NJC colorado [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Re[3]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) [CaTGirl627@aol] Re: Colorado... (NJC) [David Wright ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:29:58 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: jaco Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:14:20 -0400 From: "Jerry Notaro" Jaco is on the cover of Fender Frontline. Great color photo with the headline The World's Greatest Bass Player. Great story with some Joni content. I'll save it for someone who wants it. - -- Jerry np: Sex Kills ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:24:46 -0700 From: Louis Lynch Subject: 12-strings and guns In response to recent posts about 12-strings: I learned to play guitar on a 12-string, and still today I find the 6-string difficult to chord. Naturally, as a Joni fanatic, I had to learn a few songs of hers. I tried the open D tuning for "You Turn Me On, I'm a Radio," and it sounded wonderful! Just wonderful! But then, gasp!, I had to retune the strings back up to play something else. I managed to put three open-D songs together at the end of a set (including the lovely "Wounded Bird" by Graham Nash) so I would only have to retune once on stage. That lasted a short while, though. 12-strings lose their intonation quickly when retuned (and they are hard enough to keep in standard tune). Also, the high G string has a horrible outlook on being retuned and snaps itself in protest. I could not imagine a performer who relies on alternate tunings, like Joni, using a 12-string, unless she had a row of 12-string guitars all set in different tunings. In response to the comment about New York rudeness and school shootings: As a transplanted New Yorker who now lives in the coldly Christian suburbs of central Pennsylvania (Amish and Lutherans and Baptists, oh my!), I sorely miss New York because it is genuinely more FRIENDLY than most suburban areas. People in the suburbs can be very cold to outsiders. Although in New York you might experience some upfront, non-sugar-coated aggressiveness, people in large cities are forced to interact with each other all the time. They learn to respect the fact that there ARE other people in the world. They walk among each other, instead of driving their suburbia-mobiles to the closest possible parking spot in a strip mall. I would rather drive the Brooklyn Queens Expressway for 24 hours straight than sit in a bottlenecked, stoplight-speckled shopping mall avenue for a half hour. I actually find New Yorkers to be much more relaxed and much more considerate in any crowded situation. They need to communicate more often, with more strangers, and they are faced with a higher degree of stimulation and aggravation in one workday than most suburbanites know in a month! Little wonder why more tragedies such as school shootings occur in "middle class" suburban areas. People in large metro areas have learned to keep the peace to survive. City people generally do not have an exaggerated sense of entitlement. City people don't have as much time to obsess with sick Hitlerian fantasies. City children are disciplined in a different way -- they are taught that they can't always be first, that they can't have everything they want, that other people live in this world too. It's tragic what happened in Colorada, but, let's face it, you have a bunch of unchecked troubled teenagers who lack parental or societal discipline, with nothing to lose and nothing to prove, living in a privileged area. Then we make guns of all sorts easy for them to acquire. On top of that, their primary source of media entertainment was probably violent fantasy video games and films. Judging from sales figures, violence outsells all other genres of entertainment in the male teen demographics. Perhaps we should require that every student memorize the lyrics to at least one complete Joni Mitchell album each school year. "Study war no more...They paved paradise...Sex kills..." Obviously what they are learning and hearing now isn't working. Harper Lou ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:54:30 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: NJC: Colorado (2=?iso-8859-1?Q?=A2 more)?= Just a few more comments on the posts I've been reading: I think that dealing with gun legislation is actually EASIER than dealing with other possible contributing factors, because we have process and the legislative and political means, including the right to form and/or support anti-gun lobbies (along with the elected officials who do). We have these powers in spite of the daunting feeling that "my vote doesn't matter," or "politicians will do what they want to do," or "the gun lobby is too strong to fight." The comparison of battling the tobacco companies (and winning!) is a timely and apt one (although, again, I'm more likely to find fault with the smoker than the manufacturer). But if you wring your hands and give up now in feeble acceptance, or allow yourself to be distracted by questions of violence as glamorized by the media, or the bland neuroses of suburbia, you miss the point, IMHO. I heard someone wonder out loud whether it wasn't a "millennium thing." Whatever ELSE it might be, first and foremost, it's a GUN thing. Let's take away the guns, then we can ponder the other woes of what it means to be growing up (and trying to live) in America. Kate in CO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:56:38 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Trouble Child - Crosby? In a message dated 4/21/99 11:33:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, haw@ph.ed.ac.uk writes: << Crosby is a Leo - hence "Where is the lion in you to defy him?" >> Plus, he looks like the lion in the Wizard of Oz. Sorry..but..he does to me, anyway. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:00:51 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: 12-strings and gunsNJC Having just left a city, London, that i lved in for 20 years, I find my experience of city to be very different from yours. I found that people were much less aware that others were living beside them. I found them much more aggressive, intolerant and selfish. Whether it be driving or walking or just being indoors they paid scant regard top any living thing around them. Life out of the city didn't exist. Children were not taught aboiut the rights of others but only about their own right to have what they wanted, when they wanted it, and do whatever they wanted whatever the noise and whatever the time of day or night. It was a case of 'i'm all right jack-and f**k everyone else as long as I have and do what I want'. Country life is different.(this is not the first time I have lived in the country). The pace is much much slower, people smile and say hello, shop staff speak and smile and are friendly. As a result I have unwound, takle things much more slowly. No longer do i rush around and no longer do I have to steel myself to go out or to come home again! I don't think people are meant to live so closely together in blocks of brick and concrete. The average speed you can drive in london is 8mph. Rush hour starts at 7am and finishes around 8pm tho the background noise never stops. (it is soooo silent here at night.) One can walk along the pavement here and not have to push your way thru hoards of people as one did in London. And for those poor sods, like John, who commute packed like sardines into the tube. A daily Hell. City people niether have the inclination nor the time to bother with anyone else. hence neighbours can die in their homes and not be discovered for months and then only because someone complains of the smell emanating from their home! Or as happened, a man was able to kill and dismember and cook 15 people in his flat and was only discovered when someone complained of blocked drains!!! bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:00:21 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: "The Second Coming" vs. "Slouching.." Debra Kaufman wrote: > Turning and turning in widening gyre, > The falcon cannot hear the falconer, > Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; One comment on "widening gyre". As I have recently learned on my Ireland-Vacation (http://www.stud.uni-goettingen.de/~whuehn/Ireland.htm), this relates to Celtic symbolism. The spiral in particular was an important symbol for the ancient Celts. I quote from a book on Celtic design: "The art historian Paul Jacobsthal compares Celtic art to the bounded and classical style of the Greeks. 'To the Greeks,' he writes, 'a spiral is a spiral and a face is a face, and it is always clear where one ends and the other begins.' The Celts, on the other hand, 'see the faces *into* the spirals or tendrils.'" "W.B. Yeats, the great Irish poet who drew often on ancient Celtic themes, saw history as a spiral or gyre, in which events returned in later times, recognizable, yet altered. This element of constant change suggests the spiral, the "widening gyre" as Yeats called it, rather than the steady, eternal circle." For an example, visit http://www.celtic-art.com/celtic/art1.htm Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:32:09 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Trouble Child - Crosby? swear to god i was about to send a mesage about crosby being the trouble child in cas, mainly because he's a leo. h wright: you beat me to the punch. wallyk - -----Original Message----- De: Howard Wright Para: Joni@smoe.org Fecha: Miércoles 21 de Abril de 1999 09:51 Asunto: Trouble Child - Crosby? > > >In a message dated 4/20/1999 (AD) 4:07:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >dskARTS@concentric.net writes: > ><< I never thought this was about Joni. I picture her visiting ><< someone in a psychiatric hospital who's medicated and ><< maybe even in restraints. > >Marian wrote: > >>I always thought that Trouble Child was a song for a rebellious >>adolescent - maybe a message for Kilauren. > >I have always had a strong feeling that Trouble Child was written, at >least in part, about David Crosby. He ran in to all sorts of problems >during the 70s and 80s - I think he has had several periods where he was >confined to a psychiatric hospital. > >Crosby is a Leo - hence "Where is the lion in you to defy him?" > >The "Dragon shining with all values known" is most likely a drug >reference. Crosby certainly had more than his fair share of drug problems. > >There are also quite a few sea and sailing references ("breaking like the >waves at Malibu", "Only a river of changing fortunes looking for an >ocean"). Crosby was a keen sailor who had his own boat, so this could fit >him too. > >Howard > > > ******************************************************* > Howard.Wright@ed.ac.uk > > Well it's a cold bowl of chilli > When love lets you down > > Neil Young > ******************************************************** > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:57:20 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Colorado, the hard truth. I hate to drop some facts and reality into what seems to be a wistful and typical succession of arguments leading towards obvious conslusions such as gun control etc AND I will undoubtedly incur the wrath of the masses BUT is it ok to inject some not counter but alternative thoughts. Winifred is correct, stuff happens all over this planet. I dont believe any country is immune from violence. However I disagree with the conclusions to be drawn from Colorado. Lets consider gun control. Lets consider how it worked in Kosovo as well as how it would work in the US. Kosovo was a Russian colony. The first thing they did was eliminate all the guns from the population and make it a huge crime to have one. While we angst and weep over Colorado, on the next channell we see mass murder being committed against a defenseless population by a government. Does anyone seriously want to debate whether the Kosovars would vote FOR or AGAINST gun control if they could go back in time? This is why possession of guns was incorporated into the constitution, to protect the population from the government. remember now these people who wrote our constitution all came from European backgrounds and so they knew the history of tyrannical ruthless governments. While Colorado is certainly tragic Kosovo is 1000 times worse. Imagine if Kosovo happened here. You say impossible ? Where was the discussion when the government killed 86 people at Waco? Was that ok. It wasnt at kent State in the 60's. Songs were written about it. Of course it wasnt a liberal Democrat who ordered the killings at Kent State now was it. Waco was portrayed as a necessary government response to people having too many guns according to janet reno. Somehow as long as religious fanatics with guns get liquidated its ok. Think about that. We know that Kosovo is the government liquidating people who are muslims. Why this is not being portrayed as such is a mystery to me because it clearly is. Its a goverment killing people who have a religion they dont like. Back to gun control. The position of the "far right" is that every time they turn around the government is taking away more and more rights and now has resorted to killing civilians (Waco and Ruby Ridge). If we are to prevent future Colorados it wont be by passing stronger gun control laws, all we may do is turn America into another Kosovo. The real problem is (2) I start with the simple fact that far more POSTAL workers murder each other than students year after year. Somehow while the schools are studied and analyzed and laws are passed the Postal Service gets a free pass and it is one of the most secularized institutions in our entire society. Somehow there are things "tragic and out of control" in our schools but "lets raise the cost of stamps again because benefits have to go up." is all we hear about the postal service. No one EVER claims that the government as an employer needs outside control or oversight. Secondly there were more students killed in 1992 than in the last three years combined. Where was the outrage ? I dont know but one things for sure, the Brady Bill didnt work and neither did the other 20,000 new gun control ordinances and laws passed during the Clinton Administration. So it CANT POSSIBLY be laws that can prevent these occurrences. I believe that the root cause of this is the same thing that bleeding hearts have been claiming is the root cause for years and years. Environment. Not the environment (the home, neighborhood, etc) as they have termed it, but the environment the progressives created. The one in which religion is evil to have in the schools. Where no one can judge ethics, morals, and civility because everything is ok.The "environment" is the one in which the schools are prevented from ferreting out deviants or imposing discipline. Mutants are allowed to disrupt the entire school and win lawsuits if they are punished. The government and the academics have been on an all out crusade to outlaw the concepts of personal responsibility, individual rights, and the sanctity of life. There are no absolutes, no right and no wrong. In fact you are deserving of ridicule to claim there is. The most despicable movie imaginable is deemed untouchable because of artistic freedom. I could go on. the problem is that the environment these kids have grown up in is one in which if you feel you are a "victim" its ok to lash out with violence. I remember the sceen where the Howard University Law School cheered the OJ verdict. last but not least we have all been told a million times how virtually no behavior can be bad lest we be judgemental ie being "judgemental" is a worse crime than the behavior. The very same people who castigated and villified anyone who wanted Clinton impeached because he commited a felony (now proven by the judges contempt ruling) are the ones who believe that gun control is the solution. The environment created by the bleeding hearts is one in which every vice is a virtue and every virtue is a vice. How can we expect kids to not adopt the victimization alibi when so much of our media and pundits and movies and television support such a view. When a society has done so much to blur the lines between right and wrong how can we expect immature kids to believe it is wrong to do anything ? And if it IS wrong in most cases its ok for me now because I am a victim. It was no suprise to me to learn that these kids were just like the Ooftygoofties in Germany in the 1980's. Nihilistic youth who were into vampires and demon worship. I am not a religious fanatic but we have legally outlawed prayer in the schools, even moments of silence. Where we create a vacuum something will fill it say the laws of entropy. If we dont allow the good to fill the vacuum the evil will surely. The old saw "An idle mind is the Devils workshop" has just been played out on our national networks from Colorado. As you can see prayers can not be blamed for what happened in Colorado yesterday. But as sure as night follows day there will be a connection made to "religious fanatic extreemists" as the cause. Just as so many JMDL members are focusing on the guns and controlling them. That is the choice we face. Outlaw the only controlling mechanism of self directed moral judgements known to man or suffer the consequences. In Colorado we see the consequences.It isnt "grief counsellors" AFTER the killings, that is clearly needed, it is moral and ethical judgements BEFORE the killings. Last take on gun control. All the enlightened laws and rules they have in Europe didnt prevent Baader Meinhoff, the Red Brigades, and 34 bombs in Paris in 1984. Since the Oklahoma City Bomb was made with Fertilizer and Diesel Fuel do we ban those things while we are at it ? If we are consistent and not hypocritical we do because it isnt the people who do the crimes it is the instruments they use. Let the flames begin. marcel deste. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:59:31 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Colorado and new york (njc) new york does have an undeserved bad reputation. of course, crime and violence are common in new york [though a LOT less than they used to be], but i've always perceived the new yorker's attitude as one of zero-tolerance towards john-wayne-ism when it comes to solving disputes. i haven't been to many places in the us, but i've actually seen people in missouri shopping for guns -- seemingly for hunting purposes -- as though arms were candy. you should have seen how they relished and almost smacked their lips at the sight of cartridges and whatever stuff folks buy when they are gun-crazy. i remember a friend of mine that used to work for the ny city government writing a little pamphlet that would go right along with the 6-year-olds' primers, explaining why it was bad to carry your daddy's gun to school. that was about 10 years ago. i was stunned. now i understand why. mind you, my knowledge of us culture is infinitesimal and i don't mean to insult anybody or be one of the rude few, but i was very pleasantly surprised when i started going to ny and noticed that the woman that does the gift-wrapping at the barnes and noble near lincoln center was about the scariest thing about ny city i would ever come across. wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:19:19 -0700 From: Catherine Turley Subject: colorado njc Kate in CO asked: >Does it really matter that yesterday was the anniversary of Hitler's >birthday? Does it really matter that these kids listened to KMFDM? >Does it really matter that they were ostracized last year by their >peers, or that they formed themselves into the "Trenchcoat Mafia," or >that one of these teenage-killers had a website with plans for pipe >bombs that he got off the 'net? I think these things do matter in some way that I can't articulate well at the moment. I am no fan of gun ownership either. I find the NRA (or at least most of their spokespeople) hypocritical gasbags who aggressively insert their heads in the sand. I would be happy to see very, very restrictive gun laws passed. But at this point I'm less concerned with legislation. The U.S. has had a gun culture since the get-go. We have been foolishly and (imo) wickedly in love with guns since before we drafted our constitution. However, only in recent years have we seen these kind of school shootings and workplace blood baths that seem to result from fairly typical life frustrations. Guns have always been readily available in our culture, but in the past delinquent teenagers have done things like slash tires and set off cherry bombs and clog all the toilets in school and vandalize lockers or just have fist fights and otherwise be aggressive and obnoxious. I'm afraid that I agree with Don that whether or not they are legal, at this point in our history, they will be available to those who really want them. I don't think this is an excuse to give up on gun control, but the more important question is why has gun violence become the first resort of the frustrated and disaffected rather than the last? I was very touched this morning when I saw a woman on the Today Show who had lost her little daughter in the Jonesboro, Arkansas shooting last spring. The interviewer was asking her about her feelings seeing what is happening in Littleton, and did she finally feel safe again. Her reply was that the authorities had showed her the statistics, and that her other children were statistically safe in returning to school, but she said that no one had provided her with a satisfactory explanation of why the whole thing happened, and that she would never feel peace or safety until we begin to ask and understand why. Why have we collectively fallen asleep at the wheel and let our young (and many older) people drift unchecked towards whatever evil and distortions that appear attractive at the time. Why has gun violence become so attractive? Why can't we be bothered? To me, that's the crux of the problem. Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:48:15 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: "The Second Coming" vs. "Slouching.."NJC Either Budhism or Hiduism also sees life and time etc as being a spiral. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:50:30 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Trouble Child - Crosby? In a message dated 4/21/99 6:01:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TerryM2442@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 4/21/99 11:33:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, haw@ph.ed.ac.uk writes: << Crosby is a Leo - hence "Where is the lion in you to defy him?" >> Plus, he looks like the lion in the Wizard of Oz. Sorry..but..he does to me, anyway. Terry >> So we can do a modern folk-rock version of the Wizard of Oz. Crosby as the Cowardly Lion; Nash as the Tin Man; Stills as the Scarecrow and Joni as Dorothy. Who would play the Wizard now that Jerry Garcia is gone? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:53:20 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Colorado, the hard truth. NJC Please keep this stuff on the NJC side. In a message dated 4/21/99 7:02:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << I hate to drop some facts and reality into what seems to be a wistful and typical succession of arguments leading towards obvious conslusions such as gun control etc AND I will undoubtedly incur the wrath of the masses BUT is it ok to inject some not counter but alternative thoughts. Winifred is correct, stuff happens all over this planet. I dont believe any country is immune from violence. However I disagree with the conclusions to be drawn from Colorado. >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:53:26 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Court and Spark In a message dated 4/21/1999 2:59:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Zapuppy@webtv.net writes: << It would be a ridiculous shame if, since we're aware Man From Mars is written about Joni's missing cat, that suddenly only feline lovers would be touched by the song, no longer applying the greater message and application to relationship of the song, from not being able to see past the specifics of to whom it was written. Off the top of my head, Two Grey Rooms is another one that comes to mind. I assume most know it's a story written about a homosexual who takes a room along the path of which an old lover takes daily. When knowing the specifics of a story, I certainly hope the beauty of the story doesn't somehow then become tainted or disregarded because the actual background is known and no longer a speculated mystery. We could go on and on. Learning specifics may add >> I have always loved Two Grey Rooms. What ever meaning it is to her is just extra info. The song, for example Man from Mars....I never knew it was about a cat....now I know. Has it lost any meaning for me? Certainly not! Not because I have 7 cats and lost one or that my name is catgirl but because the song is just GREAT!! Knowing where she was going with the song just makes it interesting for me, nothing more. Catgirl....I call and call the silence is so full of sounds...... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:03:09 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: TTT songbook, clicking noises on Blue In a message dated 4/21/1999 5:35:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, haw@ph.ed.ac.uk writes: << Does anybody know if a songbook >came out for TTT? I called around but I don't think this has happened. The last I heard, the TTT songbook was due out in the shop on April 23rd, so not long to wait! Having said that, it has been delayed many many times already. I'm hoping that it really will be out soon! It will be in pretty much the same format as the last few songbooks - music arranged for vocal line and piano, with guitar chords above. The right tunings are included - only Man From Mars and Here's to You are arranged for standard tuning. >> I am very glad to hear this!!! YEA! I plan on getting it. Actually, already ordered it from a music store. they said they would request it and see if it would come it not guaranteeing me anything. So at the very least it could happen! The clicking noises do not sound like her nails, Kakki was saying that there are some noises that Joni felt leaving in to not make the album *perfect* Well, to bad because it is! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:05:30 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's fingernails In a message dated 4/21/1999 5:54:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, haw@ph.ed.ac.uk writes: << This is something I've realised with time ... I've been playing Joni stuff on the guitar for a long time, but it's only in the last 3 years or so that I realised that having decent length nails makes quite a big difference to the sound of the guitar. The sound you get from nail-on-string is quite a bit stronger and richer than the sound of flesh-on-string. The percussive "clicks" and slaps Joni throws in also work better with long nails. I would urge all Joni-guitarists to grow their nails a little! Howard >> Well I guess my nails will start to grow. It will take some getting used to but I will force my self to learn to fingerpick with my nails.. BTW, why don't they call it nailpicking? Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:08:12 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[4]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) In a message dated 4/21/1999 8:24:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << And responds with: **NoWAY!!!! I love that song. It is one of the few I play off of the album.. It is so much fun!** To which I respond: Cat, my statement was in reference to FMIP as the weakest link in the SONG CYCLE concept of C&S, I didn't mean to infer that there's anything weak about the song itself...my comments were about the song SEQUENCING... Bob >> Ok Bob, Gotcha! I am sure there is not one songs of hers you do not like in the least...me neither! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:43:26 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colorado, the hard truth.NJC Marcel-I also think your answer is too simplistic. I also find it offensive that many people believe that if we do not follow a religion or their moral code we are immoral. That is not the case. I do not think it is right to have religion/prayers in school and I also don't think that any child should be brought up in any religion.(because when children are very young they see the adults ariound them as infallible and will believ anything they are taught-and it can take a life time to udo that damage). I think religions should be taught in schools so that children know what they are and what the beliefs are. However, I feel that they should be left until they are adult and can make up their own minds as to what religion, if any, they subscribe. As for personal responsibilty, I don't know of any 'bleeding hearts'(an offensive term) that dismiss this. It is vital for every human being to accept such in order to live well. I know many people who have done wrong thru ignorance, thru addiction, thru mental illness, thru pain and other reasons but who STILL accept responsibilty for their actions. This of course can only happen when they see they have to change. Also, to teach Xtianity AND also expect to have personal responsiblity, is never going to work. Xtianity removes personal responsibilty. All aberrant behaviour can be caused by a demon! One can commit any crime and be instantly forgiven(in RC one only has to go to confession and say the given prayers as punishment). It is also made clear that man is naturally evil and can only be good by the grace of Jesus Christ. None of which promotes personal responsibilty. I think one of the MOST damaging aspects of this teaching is the teaching that man is inately evil and unworthy. For a person to be healthy and productive and compassionate and treat others well, they must feel worthy and good. To teach otherwise is I believe evil itself. I find it really objectionable when i here people such as the Archbishop of Canterbury, Billy Graham or any number of xtians(or jews or Muslims etc) saying that the ills of the world are caused because people refuse to follow MY moral code. Now they would argue that it is not their moral code but God's but neglect to understand that that particular statement is NOT fact but their opinion. They have decided that the moral code of their 'book' is correct. So it is a personal opinion and nothing more. there are no absolutes tho people dearly wish there were and therfore insist that there are. it makes them feel safer. The only thing one can follow is one's own conscience. There is nothing else to follow. One has to have the courage of one's own convictions-not someone else's. I could not imagine facing my maker and saying I lived my life according to the wishes of others. How embarrassing and iadequate that would be! Yet many people who subscribe to a set of beliefs think that people such as I disbelieve them thru being evil rather than thru having a heart and a mind and an active conscience. I vividly remember being told that it was Satan who made me doubt or outright reject what they were trying to get me to believe. I do believe in God. I believe She gave me a conscience and a fool proof way of knowing whether or not I am living right-I hurt if I don't. Okay, so we can be hurt by others-yes that is so-BUT it is our thoughts and response to that that ultimately hurt and cause pain. We really do reap what we so. It is not for nothing that Jesus (as well as other teachers) told us not to judge(condemn) others and to rid oursleves of resentment. And he was talking about those very people we feel self-righteous in resenting because they hurt us or others-like racists, homophobes, murderers etc. He was talking to those people that condemn and vilify in His name. He also meant you and me and everyone else. Love thy neighbour as thyself. Who takes that seroiously? Love yourself and you will love your neighbour. Love your children and you will have adults who love themselves and others. teach children that they are inately evil or inherently not good enough and you will have adults who are in pain and will act out that pain. It is also important to understand that one cannot love what one fears. So if you fear your children(for what might be hidden in them), if you fear god, if you fear your parents, then you cannot love them. The two are mutually exclusive.Love is more of an action, than a feeling. It isn't what we generally refer to as love-emotional attachemnt. Love is being tolerant, is not ignoring a stranger in need, is actively helping someone, is lisetening, etc Over the last 20 years I have seen many people heal. i have seen and heard people who lived the most selfish destructive lives change into loving humans who treated others well and compassionately. These people included those who have killed, who have abused children, who have raped etc. ALL of them changed when they learned to love THEMSELVES and forgive themsleves after having taken responsibilty for themsleves and their actions and belief system. Not one of them changed in this way because they got religion. those that i know who did became rigid, compassionless fearful people who merely stopped behaviour that they were told would banish them to Hell. they didn''t change within and ultimately returned to their old ways. Of course people will always insist that if only people would listen to me and follow MY beliefs, then all will be well. it is the easier softer way. And the easier softer way does not work. And by the way, locking people up in prisons, the death sentence, physical punishment of children, shaming people, is the easier softer way. Throughout history these tactics have been used and it has never ever worked. The hardest way is to work on yourself and to love. Harder becaue it requires real thought and real discipline and requires that you develop a thick skin because the selfrighteous bigots who follow set beliefs will vilify you and persecute you and call you a bleeding heart with a look of disgust on their face. I think you might have gathered I do not agree with you! bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:00:50 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Colorado, the hard truth. PS: the lack of love and the belief that people are not good enough as themselves, which contributes to people feeling that they are less than, is perpetuated even by those that would be horrified to thinkt hay they doit. It is subtle. Like the fact that people are praised and put on pedastools and lauded for what they DO and not for what they are. I have had many parents tell me how brilliant there child is-how many exams they passed, how much money they earn, that thay are a doctore, a lawyer, have a fancy car. I have yet to have a parent ell my they are proud of their child because they are kind or patient or some other quality of spirit. The pressure to get good grades to excel at sport, to be on the team, to get a good job, to get to college etc all feed the idea that we are not good enough, that we can just BE but we must DO. Completly ignoring the fact that our worth is in being and not in doing. We are human beings for a reason. If we weren't we'd be human doings and therefore not worth much because someone can always do better than you! Ecah of us, regardless of how we percieve oursleves and othjers, is inately worthy, imo, and each of has within us the wherewithal to be peaceful and loving beings. Giving conditonal love corrupts and we see the results everywhere. It has been said that if a baby is fed and watered and warmed but not touched or caressed or spoken to, loved, it will die. I guess that makes it important. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:02:45 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[4]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) In a message dated 4/21/99 7:11:43 PM Central Daylight Time, CaTGirl627@aol.com writes: << Ok Bob, Gotcha! I am sure there is not one songs of hers you do not like in the least...me neither! >> Now I didn't say that! :~) Dancin' Clown, Smokin', and The Tenth World could all disappear and I'd be the first to say "Good Riddance to Bad Rubbish"... Bob, sitting here thinking that the poor Only Joni folks probably think the list is pretty quiet lately.... NP: Erykah Badu, "certainly" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:14:19 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni & Jackson Browne (i'm Not To Blame) > there is no feud between Joni Mitchell and Jackson Browne. > > the feud is between Jackson Browne and the Truth. > the feud is between Jackson Browne's public persona and private behavior. > > Joni has *never* commented publically about Jackson Browne > and his connection (as inspiration) to the song "Not To Blame". > > however make no mistake about this, the song *is* Jackson. > > his own whiny, pathetic public complaints and denial only confirm > that *he himself* sees the connection I posted this awhile back and I think people may have thought I was joking but I wasn't. In the song 'Lucky Girl' from DED Joni lists the type of losers she's been involved with prior to meeting Klein and one of the lines goes 'cheaters, *woman-beaters* and Huck Finn shucksters hopping parking meters..' I wonder if this is a reference to Jackson Browne and if there was ever an incident where he threatened or was violent to Joni when they were involved with one another... Mark in Seattle, not above gossip (but I *will* sit on a secret where honor is at stake) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:35:50 +0100 From: catman Subject: NJCRe: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) > > > Bob, sitting here thinking that the poor Only Joni folks probably think the > list is pretty quiet lately.... which is what they wanted!!!! > > > NP: Erykah Badu, "certainly" - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:39:06 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC: Audiophile's Corner This week I noticed a new detail in "Suite: Judy Blue Eyes". I never heard the tambourine before. I guess it blended in with the steel stringed acoustic guitars, but now, it's completely obvious. Can everybody hear this or is it only high-end systems??? - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:54:18 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC: Dave Brubeck Quartet np: "Take Five" on CD by that Dave Brubeck Quartet. Wow, it sounds better coming out of my $140 Sony CD player than it has any right to sound. It beats the sound from the Rega Planar 3 although it is hamstrung probably by the RB250 arm. (It's an *old* Planar 3.) Anyway, the brags about being 20-bit mastered and this one really shines. Naturally "audiophile" differences are very small, by definition. - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:23:05 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: colorado njc Guns have always been readily > available in > our culture, but in the past delinquent teenagers have done things like > slash tires and set off cherry bombs and clog all the toilets in > school and vandalize lockers or just have fist fights and otherwise be > aggressive and obnoxious. I'm afraid that I agree with Don that whether > > or not they are legal, at this point in our history, they will be > available to those who really want them. I don't think this is an excuse > > to give up on gun control, but the more important question is why has > gun violence become the first resort of the frustrated and disaffected > rather than the last? I've been reading all these posts about this horrible tragedy and trying to put my thoughts together. Catherine and Kakki have come the closest to expressing what my feelings have been since I first started hearing the reports. How has it come about that the value of human life is so blatantly disregarded? What has gone wrong that these children have no sense of the horrible wrong of taking another human life or of the consequences of that wrong? And by consequences, I'm not talking about going to prison or capital punishment. I'm talking about the unbearable pain and loss inflicted on the families of the dead. Someone, somewhere along the line has failed these children miserably. Is it lack of love or moral guidance from their parents? Or just neglect in general? Is it the violence in the entertainment available to them or more specifically the cavalier attitude expressed toward that violence in so many movies, games, etc? I don't know what the answer is. It's probably all of this and a lot more. But I don't think getting rid of the guns is the answer although I certainly wouldn't weep for their absence. The problem goes much deeper than the availability of guns. The senselessness of this tragedy reminds me of the Tate-LaBianca murders. There was no good reason for the Manson family to invade that house and viciously murder those people. Maybe it was the first warning signal of things to come. A wake up call that nobody listened to. Killing in general bothers me. Killing for such inane reasons as where a political border is or because of differences in race or religion bothers me a lot. Killing for no particular reason or for such innocuous reasons as being ostracized at school disturbs me. And when it is teenage kids that are doing the killing, kids whose lives or physical well-being is not being compromised or threatened in any way, then I have to believe that something very basic has gone terribly wrong in our world and locking up the guns is not going to make it right. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:44:36 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: thoughts on this place we live - NJC Earthlings - Today, three male students from one of the local high schools put on black trench coats and ski masks, got in their car and drove to the parking lot of another high school. There, they jumped out of their car and began shooting their toy guns at students in the parking lot. Apparently, their comment to the police who quickly arrived to haul them to the station was "What's the big deal? It's just a joke!" I'm suddenly stunned by this world we live in. Maybe it's because this tragedy hit so close to home - 50 miles from my front door. Maybe it's the haunting sound bite CNN keeps repeating of the girl describing the gun to her head. I don't know. I'm just stunned. I had to tell somebody... Les "This is not America..." - - David Bowie "Is this a place I can rest my poor head... Is this a place where the feelings aren't dead From an overexposure to violence... I've got these tears from a long time ago I need to cry 30 years or so..." - - John Hiatt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:07:00 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC colorado In a message dated 4/21/1999 10:38:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, whuehn@stud.uni-goettingen.de writes: << But why is the US the only country where these teenage blodbaths occur? There is a clear and obvious answer to this: It is the gun culture being an inherent element of your society. You must ban guns in order to stop this. The easy availability of guns means that every existential crisis (not only among adolescents) has the potential of turning into a deadly tragedy. Winfried in Germany, where the Police are allowed to have guns and licensed hunters/sportsmen are allowed to have guns and where everybody else who is caught posessing a gun is heavily fined, if not sent to jail. >> I was just thinking aobut this Winfried, and you are absolutely correct. The constitution was written a long time ago. Things change. Unfortunately, the NRA (National Rifle Association) has alot of pull on things and to have gun control would just be unheard of (the right to bear arms) This is a sad and scarey truth. Nothing will every be solved until the NRA has less strength! Catgirl...but I'm angry now...Homer Simpson (wanting to buy a handgun) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:15:24 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[3]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) In a message dated 4/21/1999 11:19:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << Pat asked: <> I would say "belongs" is a little strong, it would certainly fit on HOSL as another empty unfulfilling suburban moment, but it fits just as nicely on C&S as a condemnation of a typical phony-baloney celebrity party. Besides, it it got bumped to HOSL, then Jungle Line gets bumped to DJRD, and then lots of folks are upset! :~) Bob >> Greetings, For me I personlly don't feel that PP belongs any place else but CAS. It is a very cool song but it does not have that jazzier feel I get when I hear Hissings. Just my view thats all! CAtgirl..NP:rocky mountain way-Joe Walsh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:38:48 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Colorado... (NJC) Kakki wrote: > > Blaming guns, violence, suburban apathy, etc. > only provides generalized reasoning and is not satisfactory enough for me. > All I come back to is this group of boys who either felt they were outcasts, > or styled themselves as outcasts, who went around calling themselves the > "trench coat mafia", who openly stood for hate and violence against > minorities, who were involved in a larger group which identified with Hitler > and Nazism who met on the internet every night... [snip] I very much agree that blaming guns, etc. is not enough, but I seem to come back to a different place from you: First, from reading the comments of other students today about the "trench coat Mafia" and finding a lot of it very familiar from my high school, I'd say the group of boys *were* outcasts. And it's not an excuse, but it's also not something to be minimized. It also seems like the "Mafia" students, if they're like a lot of students I knew at high school (including some who also wore black trench coats), actively *embraced* being outcast by a system whose values they didn't agree with - -- the whole popularity and social scene at high school -- and as far as that goes I cheer them on. But I don't know why the people at this high school ended up violently while the ones at my high school didn't. I find myself coming back to American society again (or maybe I just feel too close to Littleton and the people there; it's so strange to me to see it being "put under the microscope") -- for instance, with the media making a fuss over the shooters wearing black trench coats, setting themselves apart from other students, being part of the "Goth scene," etc., the implication is already, "people who act different from social norms -- who even *embrace* the concept of acting against social norms -- are dangerous"! I think that attitude just perpetuates the conditions in which violence can erupt. (That's why I agree with Kate T.'s take below on the media.) Second, though I don't mean to downplay the seriousness of neo-Nazism, I think it would be more productive to think about ways in which our entire society, not just fringe groups, stands -- both openly and, more often, covertly -- for hate and violence against minorities. Kate T. wrote: > ...it was just too much FLUFF, with newscasters filling up time asking > questions so far off the mark as to be ludicrous in the wake of such a > chilling event. > Does it really matter that yesterday was the anniversary of Hitler's > birthday? Does it really matter that these kids listened to KMFDM? Thank you, Kate, I felt exactly the same way reading today's newspaper coverage. I think if the focus is on the most sensational aspects of the tragedy, it will be that much easier to see it as a freak occurrence, and that much harder to prevent it from happening again. So much of what's being said now, I think, is exactly what was said after the other school shootings: "Where were the parents?", "How could no one have seen the warning signs?", "We need gun control".... I agree with all of it, but it seems it must not be enough to say those things, if we haven't learned our lesson yet. I think maybe to stop things like this from happening again, we should start looking at American society in a totally new way. I'm not sure what that way is. This is all kind of nebulous for me right now. Thoughts? - --David ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #175 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?