From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #174 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, April 21 1999 Volume 04 : Number 174 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Bootleg of MSG? (Not!) [simon@icu.com] Re[3]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) [Bob.Muller@fluorda] Trouble Child - Crosby? [Howard Wright ] Re: NJC colorado ["Don Rowe" ] Re: colorado--little jc [Debra Kaufman ] RE: Peaks and valleys (SJC) [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Re: NJC colorado ["Winfried Hühn" ] RE: Re: Re[2]: Court & Spark [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Re{2}: NJC colorado ["Don Rowe" ] more Joni guitar questions [CarltonCT@aol.com] Re: Re{2}: NJC colorado ["Winfried Hühn" ] Prince NJC [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Re{2}: NJC colorado ["Winfried Hühn" ] PWWAM in UK? JM Live in UK? [Bounced Message ] RE: Re: VLJC colorado [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Re: colorado--NJC [catman ] Re: PWWAM in UK? JM Live in UK? ["Winfried Hühn" ] Today in Joni History - April 22 [Today in Joni History ] re: Colorado (vljc) [Catherine Turley ] NJC Colorado [evian ] Court and Spark .. dos pesos ["Don Rowe" ] Re: more Joni guitar questions [Mark Domyancich ] Re: NJC Colorado [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] NJC Colorado shooting and prayers ["Happy The Man" ] Re: "The Second Coming" vs. "Slouching.." [Debra Kaufman ] NJC: Colorado (long) [Kate Tarasenko ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:01:04 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Re: Bootleg of MSG? (Not!) Don Rowe replies ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >Dear simon ... > >So sorry. I guess my age is showing, as I used the term "bootleg" to >refer loosely to "any unauthorized recording" ... it was never my intention >to imply that you, or anyone else on the jmdl would ever consider >profiteering on joni material of any kind. So would something like >"shareware" be a little more PC? ;-) > >Don Rowe >__________________________________________________________________________ hey Don, no problem here. i often see the word Bootleg used rather 'loosely' in cases where it doesn't apply. it's not a case of PC either, just using the appropriate word. Concert Recordings (ie: tapes), Radio Broadcasts (ie: airchecks) or PROMO recordings are all more accurate descriptions. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:02:32 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[3]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) Pat asked: <> I would say "belongs" is a little strong, it would certainly fit on HOSL as another empty unfulfilling suburban moment, but it fits just as nicely on C&S as a condemnation of a typical phony-baloney celebrity party. Besides, it it got bumped to HOSL, then Jungle Line gets bumped to DJRD, and then lots of folks are upset! :~) Bob NP: FMIParis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:31:17 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Trouble Child - Crosby? In a message dated 4/20/1999 (AD) 4:07:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dskARTS@concentric.net writes: << I never thought this was about Joni. I picture her visiting << someone in a psychiatric hospital who's medicated and << maybe even in restraints. Marian wrote: >I always thought that Trouble Child was a song for a rebellious >adolescent - maybe a message for Kilauren. I have always had a strong feeling that Trouble Child was written, at least in part, about David Crosby. He ran in to all sorts of problems during the 70s and 80s - I think he has had several periods where he was confined to a psychiatric hospital. Crosby is a Leo - hence "Where is the lion in you to defy him?" The "Dragon shining with all values known" is most likely a drug reference. Crosby certainly had more than his fair share of drug problems. There are also quite a few sea and sailing references ("breaking like the waves at Malibu", "Only a river of changing fortunes looking for an ocean"). Crosby was a keen sailor who had his own boat, so this could fit him too. Howard ******************************************************* Howard.Wright@ed.ac.uk Well it's a cold bowl of chilli When love lets you down Neil Young ******************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:51:23 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: NJC colorado Winfried writes ... >There is a clear and obvious answer to this: >It is the gun culture being an inherent element of your society. You >must ban guns in order to stop this. The easy availability of guns means >that every existential crisis (not only among adolescents) has the >potential of turning into a deadly tragedy. > Unfortunately, this is another genie which can't be put back in its bottle once released. Banning firearms in the US, if it were politically possible, which I assure you it's not -- even in light of this recent incident -- would do nothing to lessen the easy access to guns of any kind. They are, quite simply, out there in unimagineable quantites -- in responsible hands or not, registered or not, legal or illegally modified or not -- and even if the will of the people existed to collect and destroy them, I regret that even then, the task would exceed any probability of success. And so we watch as our children kill each other, we wring our hands and dispatch counselors, print and distribute unread flyers and build more and larger prisons. We are Sysyphus, and this is the stone of our own making. Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:01:23 -0500 From: Debra Kaufman Subject: Re: colorado--little jc >There is a clear and obvious answer to this: >It is the gun culture being an inherent element of your society. You >must ban guns in order to stop this. The easy availability of guns means >that every existential crisis (not only among adolescents) has the >potential of turning into a deadly tragedy. Winfried, I couldn't agree more. The sadness I feel is mixed with such fury about US culture. Violence has always been part of our ethos, unfortunately; our country was built on it. Yet it's been in the last few years that we've had these horrible gun incidents, mass killings, and in the last year or so so many in the schools. Get rid of these guns, assault rifles, automatics, handguns, etc. It's that simple. If as a society we can make bartenders responsible for selling drink to an obviously drunk person who then drives away and kills someone in an accident, or make cigarette companies liable for lung/heart disease that kills, why not make the gun companies who manufacture these kinds of weapons liable. That is the next movement we'll see in the courts (we're beginning to already). We have to do something. I urge all of us in the US to write to members of Congress, the President, etc.--to legislate some kind of action dealing with guns. If the Brady Bill can pass when Reagan was President, surely we can get the momentum going for this. Yes, the National Rifle Association if incredibly dangerously powerful, but everyone said you could't fight the tobacco companies too, and look what happened. There's much more than this, of course--our kids see violent movies and tv shows and play stupid bloody video games with killing. That violence is glorified and made unreal or surreal is also something we must address. But first things first. Take the guns away. We could have public meltdowns: Turn the metal into jewelry or cooking pots or some other constructive use. The little Joni content: I couldn't bear to hear the radio news story this morning about the incident, so I popped in the tape that was halfway in the player. What came on: "Slouching Towards Bethlehem." The words so appropriate as they were when Yeats wrote them at the turn of the century. "A blood-dimmed tide is loosed upon the world... The center cannot hold... Innocence is drowned in anarchy. The best lack conviction and the worst are full of passion without mercy... Surely some revelation is at hand." It made me cry. We have to turn our distress, grief, anger into action or else what good are we? Debra > **************************************************************** "The end is nothing. The road is all." -- Willa Cather ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:01:59 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: Peaks and valleys (SJC) Evian wrote: <<>> You know, I've been thinking about Prince lately and have come to the conclusion that he's really a singles (or more accurately, songs) artist stuck in the album form. I own all but 2 or 3 of his albums, and when I think about his work it's individual songs that stand out to me rather than albums. Even the albums which I like the most (_Purple Rain_, _Sign of the Times_, _Gold Experience_) are more a collection of good songs than a good album to me. I say that because I have discerned a much less dramatic drop in quality in his '90s work than other people seem to have. On balance I would agree that he's not quite as exciting as he used to be, but both _Gold Experience_ and _The Truth_ (from the 4-disc _Crystal Ball_ set) rank with his freshest and most fun work IMO. I agree that _Graffiti Bridge_ mostly sucked and that a lot of other stuff since then isn't so great, but if you want to give The Artist of the '90s a chance, pick up _Gold Experience_. I think you won't be disappointed. For a little Joni content, I would put the quality of his work now on a par with Joni's now--not always the most groundbreaking or consistent, but still peppered with jewels. I rank NRH above most of her '70s stuff and _Gold Experience_ above most of his '80s stuff. We may not have a _Blue_ through _Hejira_ run again from Joni, but she's still putting out stuff worth hearing. Same for Prince, IMO. - --Michael NP: Who, _Who Sell Out_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:14:50 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: NJC colorado Don Rowe wrote, as pessimistically as poetically: > They are, quite simply, out there in unimagineable > quantites -- in responsible hands or not, registered or not, legal or > illegally modified or not -- and even if the will of the people > existed to collect and destroy them, I regret that even then, the task > would exceed any probability of success. And so we watch as our > children kill each other, we wring our hands and dispatch counselors, > print and distribute unread flyers and build more and larger prisons. > We are Sysyphus, and this is the stone of our own making. > > Don Rowe To which I respond: Lobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbylobbyanddontgiveup! A change of habits alwas takes time, but it has to start somewhere. It is a process, not a single date. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:42:08 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: Re: Re[2]: Court & Spark Mark in Seattle wrote: <<<'Down to You' & 'Just Like This Train' are about how you can drive yourself crazy when you're falling out of love.>>> Thank you so much Mark for pointing this out. "Down to You" has long been my favorite song off of C&S, and one of my favorites of Joni's ever. But, somehow, I never realized just what it was about until moments ago. I'm one of the music-first people, and I've always been captivated by "Down to You"'s wandering melody and the occasional well-turned phrase without really paying attention to the gist of the song. So when Mark wrote this I immediately headed to jonimitchell.com to fix that. This is something that's been happening quite a bit to me given my unusual emotional state lately. I've been listening to songs I've known and loved for years and suddenly realized that they contained a kernel of the truth I've been experiencing. I never realized what a wealth of break-up songs there are out there in the world. ;-) Frankly, I used to dismiss many of these (not Joni's, but in general) as somewhat Hallmark-ish and superficial. Really listening and realizing just what a wide variety of specific and complex relationship-ending songs there are has truly been a whirlwind emotional experience for me. The songs that have resonated most for me have been the ones threading different positive and negative feelings together into a complex quilt of emotion. Madonna's "I was your fortress you had to burn," Bonnie Raitt's "When morning comes / I'll do what's right / Just give me 'til then / To give up this fight," (which she probably didn't write, but she sings it so well I'll give her credit anyway) and others like them are speaking to a whole world of BITTERSWEET. You don't get that in the movies, folks. I don't know if this makes any sense, but one of the most difficult things I've been dealing with is an end that's not a catastrophe--a way to resolve that tension between freedom and commitment, friendship and sex, logic and emotion. It's just now becoming clear to me that many artists--including, not coincidentally I'm sure, most of my favorites--have wrestled with this very thing. And who more than the lady of duality herself? "Down to You" doesn't speak to my situation precisely (I see rejoining the singles scene as a silver lining instead of a drawback), but it ends with this note of hope and independence that is just exhilirating: You're a brute-you're an angel You can crawl-you can fly too It's down to you It all comes down to you Wow. Man, this is unexplored territory for me. So many people have posted before about Joni's lyrics resonating *personally* for them, and that's an experience that, frankly, I hadn't had until very recently. I hope this post makes sense. I'm much more used to formulating arguments than pouring reaction onto the page, but, well here it is. :-) I'll go ramble off somewhere else now... - --Michael NP: Cassandra Wilson, _Traveling Miles_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:46:49 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re{2}: NJC colorado Winfried responds to my dim views on the viability of meaningful gun control in the US: >Lobby and dont give up! > Such a process is, and has been in the works for about the last 70 years or so, through various movements and groups. But lobbying against the US Constitution itself is one of the most difficult things to do in our republic. Successfully changing the minds it would take to get the votes you need to amend the Constitution isn't done all that often. Compound this with the fact that such an amendment would remove what a great many feel is a guaranteed freedom, and the slopes become that much steeper and slippery. And in this case, even a Constitutional Amendment would not, as I mentioned earlier, do much to solve the problem of firearm availability. So I shall have to cling to my pessimism a bit ... Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:20:19 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: more Joni guitar questions Well, I don't know if I would ever grow long nails just to play my guitar a certain way, then again, you have to sacrifice some things for art. Anyway, here's a few more guitar questions for those who know. Can anyone tell us if Joni has always played a steel string on her albums? Has she ever played a 12 string? Are there other musicians who play 12 strings with open tunings? The complexity of tunings for a 12 string both intrigues and boggles the mind.... We know Joni went to Staten Island to buy a mandolin. Did she ever play it, or another stringed instrument (other than dulcimer) on anything we can hear? Are there any recordings of her when she played the ukulele? And maybe Pat can tell us, when Chuck Mitchell played his set, did ladies in gingham blush while he sang them of wars and wine? And was Joni wearing leather and lace? And lastly, will the callouses on my left hand ever stop hurting? Just one comment about Colorado -- Winifried is right. We need gun control immediately. Look at our saner, safer neighbor to the North. Canada has a small fraction of the murder rate we have in this country because of their gun laws. How can we not look like total idiots to the rest of the civilized world? Only one European country has gun laws similar to our own, Greece, and they also have a correspondingly high murder rate. All those dead children! Clark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:22:08 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: Re{2}: NJC colorado Don Rowe wrote: > > Winfried responds to my dim views on the viability of meaningful gun > control in the US: > > >Lobby and dont give up! > > > Successfully changing the minds it would take > to get the votes you need to amend the Constitution isn't done all > that often. Compound this with the fact that such an amendment > would remove what a great many feel is a guaranteed freedom, and > the slopes become that much steeper and slippery. And in this case, > even a Constitutional Amendment would not, as I mentioned earlier, do > much to solve the problem of firearm availability. So I shall have to > cling to my pessimism a bit ... Yes, fair point, unfortunately. Yet, if Americans had a little more experience in looking beyond the borders of their beautiful country, they quickly would discover that nowhere else in the world, bearing arms is regarded as a basic Constitutional right. Maybe this will change with the internet and the world growing into one single society. Winfried > World horrified by school > shooting, proliferation of > guns in U.S. > > April 21, 1999 > Web posted at: 9:21 AM EDT (1321 GMT) > > TOKYO (AP) -- The deadly shooting at a suburban American high school > left much of the world stunned and horrified, especially by the > > availability of guns in the United States. > > In Hong Kong and New Delhi, the rampage that left at least 13 people > dead was the top world news story. It was front-page news in major > > Japanese and Taiwanese newspapers for their evening editions. > > South Korean TV stations carried it as urgent news. "The worst school > shooting accident; The American continent jolted!" said an > inside-page headline of the mass circulation Chosun Ilbo newspaper. > Other papers carried analytical pieces blaming the tragedy on > widespread gun ownership in the United States. In South Korea, gun > possession is illegal. > > "How sick is the gun society of America?" asked an article in the > > Yomiuri daily in Japan under the headline "Atrocity in an American > > high school." > > "If we don't watch out, the same tragedy could happen in Japan," said > education expert Itaru Arizono. "The No. 1 problem is that guns are > so easy to get in the United States, even by youngsters." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:23:57 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Prince NJC Michael made these "Princely" comments: <> And don't forget that he dumped a couple of intentionally crappy efforts out there to fulfill his contract with Warner Bros. Bob, who thinks Emancipation (3 discs) & Crystal Ball (4 discs) contain some of the best music of the 90's... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:22:08 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: Re{2}: NJC colorado Don Rowe wrote: > > Winfried responds to my dim views on the viability of meaningful gun > control in the US: > > >Lobby and dont give up! > > > Successfully changing the minds it would take > to get the votes you need to amend the Constitution isn't done all > that often. Compound this with the fact that such an amendment > would remove what a great many feel is a guaranteed freedom, and > the slopes become that much steeper and slippery. And in this case, > even a Constitutional Amendment would not, as I mentioned earlier, do > much to solve the problem of firearm availability. So I shall have to > cling to my pessimism a bit ... Yes, fair point, unfortunately. Yet, if Americans had a little more experience in looking beyond the borders of their beautiful country, they quickly would discover that nowhere else in the world, bearing arms is regarded as a basic Constitutional right. Maybe this will change with the internet and the world growing into one single society. Winfried > World horrified by school > shooting, proliferation of > guns in U.S. > > April 21, 1999 > Web posted at: 9:21 AM EDT (1321 GMT) > > TOKYO (AP) -- The deadly shooting at a suburban American high school > left much of the world stunned and horrified, especially by the > > availability of guns in the United States. > > In Hong Kong and New Delhi, the rampage that left at least 13 people > dead was the top world news story. It was front-page news in major > > Japanese and Taiwanese newspapers for their evening editions. > > South Korean TV stations carried it as urgent news. "The worst school > shooting accident; The American continent jolted!" said an > inside-page headline of the mass circulation Chosun Ilbo newspaper. > Other papers carried analytical pieces blaming the tragedy on > widespread gun ownership in the United States. In South Korea, gun > possession is illegal. > > "How sick is the gun society of America?" asked an article in the > > Yomiuri daily in Japan under the headline "Atrocity in an American > > high school." > > "If we don't watch out, the same tragedy could happen in Japan," said > education expert Itaru Arizono. "The No. 1 problem is that guns are > so easy to get in the United States, even by youngsters." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:37:04 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: PWWAM in UK? JM Live in UK? From: "Iain Mackenzie" Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:36:47 +0100 Does anyone know if PWWAM is available in the UK? Also, is there any chance of Joni ever peforming live in the UK? Thanks, Iain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:45:39 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: Re: VLJC colorado Kakki wrote: <<>> Off the very tip-top of my head, it seems that most of the widely reported incidents of mass school violence over the past two years have been in economically comfortable, predominately white communities. Obviously this is still a little zygote of a thought at this point, but I wonder how much the soullessness of suburban American culture is to blame? No doubt there's plenty of violence in the inner-city among youth with the kinds of challenges we're used to talking about, but I don't remember ever hearing anything approaching the, well, mindlessness of any of these incidents in that type of environment. Is it possible that the suburbs help drive some people crazy? Is sheltering an even worse child-rearing strategy than I thought? These incidents really make you wonder. Hissing of summer lawns, indeed. - --Michael NP: Steely Dan, _Pretzel Logic_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:51:40 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: colorado--NJC > Violence has always been part of our ethos, > unfortunately; our country was built on it. We reap what we sow comes into my mind. It seems to me that many western countries, who reaped what they didn't sow from other thrid world countries are now experiencing all sorts of strife. CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:00:40 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: PWWAM in UK? JM Live in UK? > From: "Iain Mackenzie" > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:36:47 +0100 > > Does anyone know if PWWAM is available in the UK? > Also, is there any chance of Joni ever peforming live in the UK? > Thanks, > Iain First question: Yes it is! I bought my copy at the Virgin Megastore in Ipswitch (along with "Star Trek -- The Complete Borg Collection"). The price was 12.99. Second question: Let's all visit a Gypsy, pay 18 Euros and lite a candle for our Joni-luck! :-) Winfried, Goettingen, Germany ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:31:33 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: NJC Colorado mwyarbro@zzapp.org wrote: > > Off the very tip-top of my head, it seems that most of the widely > reported incidents of mass school violence over the past two > years have been in economically comfortable, predominately white > communities. Obviously this is still a little zygote of a thought > at this point, but I wonder how much the soullessness of suburban > American culture is to blame? No doubt there's plenty of violence > in the inner-city among youth with the kinds of challenges we're > used to talking about, but I don't remember ever hearing anything > approaching the, well, mindlessness of any of these incidents > in that type of environment. > > Is it possible that the suburbs help drive some people crazy? > Is sheltering an even worse child-rearing strategy than I thought? I think this is right on target. After the last school shooting I had several conversations with other New Yorkers commenting on how we are considered so crazy and yet mass killings in schools doesn't happen here (so far anyway -- security was made even tighter in the schools today). As one mother said, things are dealt with immediately. There are certainly lots of serious problems here, the most recent to (finally) be openly discussed being racial stereotyping and the horribly tragic results of that. To put it bluntly, I say give me New York rudeness any day, rather than the "keep it all nice", cover it up, hope the problems go away, don't talk about it, middle-class "what will the neighbors think" behavior that I've experienced in the suburbs. That can lead to incredibly destructive behavior. (Is this another unfortunate heritage from our Puritan background, so that appearance is more important than substance?) Aargh, I'm still crying watching the reports on TV. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:40:00 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - April 22 1974: Joni performs at the New Victoria Theater in London - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:36:16 -0700 From: Catherine Turley Subject: re: Colorado (vljc) After endlessly watching cable news reports from Colorado much of the night (was up with a sick child) and this morning's digest with related posts I wanted to weigh in with a couple of thoughts-- I agree with Winfreid and Marian on the problems of the gun culture in the US. But while it is a serious problem, I think blaming the gun culture doesn't really address the root problems and causes of this kind of violence. There have been school shootings elsewhere (in Australia, if I'm remembering correctly) and also a terrible incident recently in Scotland. Whether its school or work place or terrorist violence--IRA bombs in England or a machine gun attack in the Vienna airport several years ago--I don't know of any place that's immune. And even though school shootings are particularly shocking I see all those sorts of violence as connected evils. I also feel that blaming violence in movies and tv and music contributing to the these events media is valid also only in a limited way--there is a far greater sickness behind our problems--Bigger beasts abound, if I may quote Joni--"Indian chiefs with their old beliefs know /the balance is undone--crazy ions--/ you can feel it out in traffic; /everyone hates everyone!" I teach history courses at a large community college, and last night my students in my modern Western Civilization course wanted to talk about what had happened in Colorado. It was very uncomfortable to try to moderate such a discussion, since several of my student rather explicitly wanted me to provide perspective--help them make sense of the situation. I don't know who can. And it was eerie to try to segue from that discussion to the night's lecture about Nazi Germany and the road to WWII, since yesterday was Hitler's birthday, which may well have been why those boys chose that day to go on their rampage, since they were obsessed with Nazi Germany. We have these models of tremendous evil in action and belief abroad in our cultures, (like the Nazis and Stalin and what's happened in Rwanda recently and on and on) and we have collectively failed to address the implications of this, as civilizations, as smaller societies, as communities, as teachers, as parents--particularly as parents, as Kakki and Debra pointed out. I can't imagine letting your kids drift so. And sure it certainly is painful to be ostracized as an adolescent, but I am reminded of a book I read a couple years ago by the excellent child psychologist Alice Miller (who Colin brought up recently on the list), and one very interesting point she made was that children can usually bear and successfully emerge from terrible conditions of trauma and hardship and abuse, provided that they have some loving and sympathetic person, usually an adult, who is able to help them experience (rather than repress) their feelings and then provide comfort and perspective. But if that kind of guidance and support is missing then all kinds of pathology and deviance can develop. Most folks would sympathize with being treated badly by the athlete clique in school, but its not a capital offense, and seems as if there was no one providing perspective and guidance for those boys. I know those boys must have had some horrific lack in their lives to have allowed them do what they did. Didn't they have anyone in their lives to provide even minimal perspective and guidance? Well, I haven't meant to go on. I'm groggy and not saying what I want to very well, and more than anything feel sick sick sick about this. What has really personalized this for me is an unconfirmed report that three of the girls who were killed were Mormons. For the last six years I have volunteered in my local Mormon congregation working with young girls exactly the same age as those who lost their lives--I feel like I have some insight into what their lives might have been like, at least a little more than superficially. I can only imagine how devastating it would be to lose one of "my" girls like this, let alone two or three or fifteen. Oh, their families . . . Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:34:36 -0600 From: evian Subject: NJC Colorado > There is peer pressure at schools all over the world. > There is violence at schools all over the world. > In a lot of Western countries, parents are more concerned about their > jobs than their children's upbringing. > We get the same TV pictures and watch the same movies in our movie > theatres. > Nearly all countries have problems with teenage suicides. > > These are all serious problems and certainly need to be tackled. > > But why is the US the only country where these teenage blodbaths occur? > > There is a clear and obvious answer to this: > It is the gun culture being an inherent element of your society. > Winfried is right on the money. I really didn't want to post with such a pat answer as to why all this might have happened, but I really don't think we can get around the gun issue. Here in Canada, we get most of our pop culture images from America -- i.e. violence in movies, tv, etc., and yet we haven't had a tragedy like what has occurred in Colorado. True, schools are getting to be more violent. We do hear of stabbings and such in schools in bigger cities, etc., and my first reaction to the news yesterday was why this has not occurred in Canadian schools, because of the similarities between Canada and U.S. culture. The answer is because of the easier access to guns in the U.S. It has to be. Teens here, especially in larger areas, are increasingly more violent and confused, yet, knock wood, we haven't had school shootings. And yes, I know the old saying that "guns don't kill people... blah blah blah", but really... think about it. I am very fearful of what is becoming of youth today. Gangs are starting to move into the inner cities at an alarming rate. For example, Winnipeg is now notorious for the "Indian Posse", and my wife, who teaches Young Offenders at a Correctional Centre, just attended a workshop about the Indian Posse is quickly moving into Saskatchewan, particularly in the jails. She now is on constant alert of gang signs, such as rolled up pant legs, finger signals, etc. The Canadian magazine Saturday Night recently profiled the Indian Posse, and I learned that the Winnipeg police has brought in gang experts from Chicago to help deal with the problem. I know that most of you aren't all that familiar with Saskatchewan, but it is terrifying to think that gangs are moving into the province... my reaction is much like David's, when he posted that "you never think it will happen where you are". However, it IS happening, and I am just thankful for Canadian gun legislation. I am very fearful of the future. Evian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:48:32 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Court and Spark .. dos pesos Never let it be said that we on the jmdl "shy away" from discussing *any* Joni album -- in fact, all the input and analysis of C&S has been a real treat. The great thing about Joni material is that even the light extemporania (my own view of C&S), "shows us a deeper meaning." This has been true from BYT through Crazy Cries, both of which Joni relentlessly refers to as "ditties." Well, if truth be told, "Help Me", "Twisted", "Raised on Robbery" and "Just Like This Train" could all be referred to (lovingly, mind you) as "ditties." That's one of C&S's charms -- the seemingly high-gloss, lightweight and light-hearted song that only much later reveals its more serious side. So not as emotional as FTR, nor breakthrough as HOSL, not a lryically poetic as 'Hejira', not as mystic as DJRD -- but still all-Joni. No wonder so many people bought C&S and still love it. Maybe we should think of it as "SIQUOMB for the Complete Klutz!" or "Chicken Soup for the Heart and Mind" ... thanks to all for a very entertaining read on this very entertaining album! Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:50:21 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: more Joni guitar questions Clark questions: >Can anyone tell us if Joni has always played a steel string on her albums? I think so. Putting a classical or nylon string guitar through an alternate tuning is pretty harsh. Nylon strings break a heck of a lot more than steel strings, in my opinion. >Has she ever played a 12 string? Are there other musicians who play 12 >strings with open tunings? The complexity of tunings for a 12 string both >intrigues and boggles the mind.... I remember reading some interview with David Crosby where she at one time took a 12 string and retuned it. I often wonder what an alternate tuning would sound like on one, though. >And lastly, will the callouses on my left hand ever stop hurting? I heard soap is a callous (sp?) killer. NPon my guitar-Song For Sharon (I can't seem to leave this tuning!) :-) Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net http://home.revealed.net/Harpua http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark "This conformity factory is now closed!" -Homer Simpson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:51:20 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: NJC Colorado Evian said: <> I always preferred..."guns don't kill people, people kill people - people with GUNS... NPIMH (now playing in my head) "Melt The Guns" by XTC NP for real: Buddy Guy, "Don't Tell Me About The Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:01:21 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: NJC Colorado shooting and prayers The colorado shooting came close to home today. Last summer I led a small group at camp. I usually get about 9 students who I spend about 10 hours a day for 6 days. One of them was Dan Stapleton, Dan was shot and wounded 3 times in the leg yesterday. He is stable with two of the bullets being removed and one is still lodged in the bone in his leg. Along with this Dan's best friend was shot and killed right next to him. I asked that you please pray for him, his family and his church as they minister to him. His youth minister Tim Shoulders is a good man and will need your prayers as he ministers do Dan and his sister who was also present. Peace, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:56:39 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Colorado (njc) Catherine, I agree with everything you wrote. I wanted to say the same but have not been able to be so eloquent because of my anger and frustration yesterday. Why does there seem to be such avoidance at looking at the root causes of these incidents? Blaming guns, violence, suburban apathy, etc. only provides generalized reasoning and is not satisfactory enough for me. All I come back to is this group of boys who either felt they were outcasts, or styled themselves as outcasts, who went around calling themselves the "trench coat mafia", who openly stood for hate and violence against minorities, who were involved in a larger group which identified with Hitler and Nazism who met on the internet every night, who made videos about guns for school projects, who somehow had the money to buy guns and chemicals to make explosive devices, and I think there is, to make a gross understatement, a definite gap here in parental and school responsibility. Maybe the parents and teachers were absent psychologically or physically, maybe they were in denial, and yes, there is that peculiarly American trait of covering up any unpleasantness for appearances' sake. I liked Debra's analogy about the blunt outspokeness and confrontational nature of the New Yorker being sometimes preferable to the denial, and whitewashing (in this case - "we thought they were joking") attitude of the suburbanite. We have a problem here and while some may think this is a hopelessly archaic or narrow concept, I maintain that the problem begins and ends with the home. As for the abolition of all guns, is this a truly realistic and effective option in the U.S.? We are a huge country, comprised of 50 states. We have a huge, diverse population compared to countries in Euope and elsewhere who ban private gun ownership. To make it even more complex, each state has their own laws concerning gun control. I personally have never owned a gun, nor have my family members and guns personally scare the hell out of me. But the banning of guns as a solution is far too complex of an issue for me to begin to tackle in any kind of debate here. I also think it would be an incomplete solution. I was struck by the difference in school policy in Colorado compared to California. (I am not criticizing Colorado at all, just looking at the differences). There is a zero tolerance policy now in California schools. Even toy guns, water pistols and plastic or toy knives are banned. If a child is found in possession of them they are expelled from school. There are also laws in California now holding the parents responsible for any criminal or destructive acts of their minor children. I am not an expert on these laws and cannot elaborate on them, but they seem to bascially be putting the responsibility back on the parents, rather than on the school, law enforcement, etc. Such laws and rules *can* be unfair to a parent who has sincerely tried to raise the child well. Some people do everything humanly possible to be good parents but may still have a child who repeatedly has problems. But maybe these new laws will also be a wake-up call to those parents who may think it is someone else's responsibility to look after and care for their child, or someone's else's fault when things go wrong. Reportedly the crime rate in L.A. county is currently at miniscule levels compared to where it was ten years ago so something is working. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:18:38 -0500 From: Debra Kaufman Subject: Re: "The Second Coming" vs. "Slouching.." Here are the words by Yeats: The Second Coming Turning and turning in widening gyre, The falcon cannot hear the falconer, Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere the ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand; The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When some vast image out of Spiritus Mundi Troubles my sight; somewhere in sands of the desert A shape with a lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, Is moving its slow thighs, while about it Reel shadows of indignant desert birds, The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born? **************************************************************** "The end is nothing. The road is all." -- Willa Cather ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 05:11:40 +0300 From: j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi Subject: Re: Burning My First Joni CD > Tonight I am finally putting my CD-writer to the test by recording > one > song from every Joni CD - not an easy task because it's impossible to > pick a > favorite, among other things.... > What should I title it? > > E.T. Upstairs At Eric's ...? - --jp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:26:10 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Videos Eric Taylor wrote: > > S&L is an awesome video! I swear Joni pioneered music videos with this > one (two years before MTV existed). Well, I think music videos (even the MTV-sort, as opposed to concert documentaries) existed long before that. I saw a video for the Mamas and the Papas' "California Dreamin'." In it, they are standing in a big white room singing the song, surrounded by a lot of bathtubs. Suddenly, hippies rise up out of the bathtubs and begin to dance! (or wave their arms around a lot, anyway). This caused me to laugh for several days. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:34:22 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: NJC: Colorado (long) Winfried wrote, in part: "These are all serious problems and certainly need to be tackled. But why is the US the only country where these teenage blodbaths occur? There is a clear and obvious answer to this: It is the gun culture being an inherent element of your society. You must ban guns in order to stop this..." I certainly hope that this does not provoke a flame war! I agree with this 1,000%! Of course, the news here in Colorado (and elsewhere on cable) is full of this tragedy, but I finally had to turn it off, not because it was just too much, but it was just too much FLUFF, with newscasters filling up time asking questions so far off the mark as to be ludicrous in the wake of such a chilling event. Does it really matter that yesterday was the anniversary of Hitler's birthday? Does it really matter that these kids listened to KMFDM? Does it really matter that they were ostracized last year by their peers, or that they formed themselves into the "Trenchcoat Mafia," or that one of these teenage-killers had a website with plans for pipe bombs that he got off the 'net? (And, of course, we'd all like to know what the parents of these rampaging murderers have been up to.) All these factors, of course, figure into the final analysis, but the only real question is: How many deaths will it take until our legislators GET IT and vote for gun bans? If you think this is unlikely, consider recent events, right here in the US: Chicago, along with other major cities, have joined in class action suits against gun manufacturers who are scoffing these cities' legislated GUN BANS by creating a black market-influx of illegal hand weapons. Who knows how it will all play out, but it's a step in the right direction. I'm not up for nitpicking between automatic weapons and .38 specials or hunting rifles. I think the bans that various countries have in place in Europe are the only answer. Owning guns is not a "god-given" right. It is painfully evident that such individual privileges have been outweighed by the need to preserve and protect the many. The right to be safe -- to work in a safe office building or attend a safe school or eat in a restaurant without fear -- is clearly more important than having a rack of guns and a case of special-edition Lugers, "just for show" (and at this point, my father would disown me). For those who would say, Well, it IS illegal for kids to carry weapons - -- why pick on law-abiding adults? I say, So what? How does this law protect us from maurauding juvenile killers? It DOESN'T. They got their weapons from adults who had ready access. For those who would say, It's my constitutional right to own guns; I say, The 2nd Amendment has gone the way of Prohibition and slavery, and it's time that our legislators and pro-gun citizens realize that. When teachers and pre-schoolers were gunned down in England not too long ago, Parliament was quick to amend their laws to reinforce protections for its citizens. Unfortunately, we're mired by special-interest lobbies and double-talking politicians, as well as this new PC-inspired age of covering our asses -- god forbid that a teacher should complain to a parent that her son made threatening remarks to her, lest the school be called into account for slander or some other absurdity! The pendulum is swinging back hard on us; the backlash of our childish and petulant insistence that we are entitled to certain "inalienable" rights, REGARDLESS, is having its devastating effects. And for the record, no, I don't want a police officer to scrape my mouth for a DNA sample when I get stopped for speeding, and I'm not willing to pee into a cup for just ANY job; I'm pro-choice and I voted for Ralph Nader last year. I support the ACLU in theory, but only about half the time in practice. But it's not an all-or-nothing proposition -- it never is! In spite of our state's recent passage of a concealed weapons bill, I'm willing to give up my "right to bear arms," and I'm willing to see you do the same, if it means that our children can be assured of some relative peace when they go to do their homework in their Resource Center without having some estranged classmate come in and shoot the face off of the boy sitting next to them. For those of you who want to get into this more, please keep it on-list, and thanks for reading. Wondering what they will say at next week's national NRA convention in Denver, Kate, sick at heart in CO ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #174 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?