From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #171 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 20 1999 Volume 04 : Number 171 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Painting with words... [dsk ] Re: Painting with words...and My First Time ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: B&O Turntable & Vinyl LP's (NJC) ["Eric Taylor" ] RE: Painting with words... ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Painting with words... [catman ] Re: Against Therapy [James Leahy ] Fwd: B&O Turntable & Vinyl LP's [Ginamu@aol.com] Fwd: NJC - Sarah Jane Morris [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Joni's HDCDs [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Fwd: NJC - Sarah Jane Morris [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Painting with words... [Jerry Notaro ] Re[2]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) [Bob.Muller@fluorda] Re[2]: Court & Spark [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re[2]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) [Bob.Muller@fluorda] Painting with words, music and VCRs ["Don Rowe" ] sour grapes, she's lost her voice [Clancyhart@aol.com] Matala, Joni songs I like to play [Howard Wright ] Re: Painting with words, music and VCRs [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: analog (NJC) [Randy Remote ] Peoples Park [Bounced Message ] Re: Beg to disagree: she's lost her voice [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: like washing on a line NJC [catman ] Re: Beg to disagree: she's lost her voice [catman Subject: Re: Painting with words... paul tyrer wrote: > > ...I hated PwWaM. You hated it so much you couldn't even keep it as a Joni-momento? Wow. Is it possible there was something wrong with your copy? Didn't someone previously mention the poor sound quality of the first tape they bought compared with a second one? It is a low key concert, but instead of gloomy I saw it as relaxed and intimate, and spiritual somehow. I couldn't look away for a second. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:13:56 +1200 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Painting with words...and My First Time Paul wrote: >It kills me to post this, because I know how much this concert(s) meant to >some of you listers but... I have to confess that I have taken my copy of >Painting with Words and Music back to the shop.....And worst of all, Joni, my >darling favouritist Joni, has lost her voice... and her eloquence... > >I am just hugely disappointed. Anyone else feel the same? >PX Personally, I loved it. On a purely musical basis, I thought the band were superb, Joni looked like she was having a great time, and if her voice seemed "lost", I, for one, didn't notice! But there are two other possible reasons. I didn't discover Joni until 1983, when I was visiting my sister at the age of 17, and got hooked on WTRF. I must have played it about 10 times while I was there, and immediately bought a copy when I got home, closely followed by a double-tape with FTR and C&S. While I have since collected all her other albums, and a couple of videos along the way, I've always preferred her voice in later years, than in her earlier work. By earlier work, I'm talking about STAS, Clouds, etc., when her voice was pure folk - high and reedy. I much prefer the more earthy (OK, smoke-induced - I'm a smoker, so I sympathise!), and sultry tone that her voice has mellowed into over the years. I've never really been a "folk-music" fan, which may have something to do with it. It also may be that I'm a little younger than the average "lister", and my tastes, for better or worse, have been shaped a little by the times I grew up in. The second reason is quite simple. I live in New Zealand, and my chances of ever seeing Joni live are minimal, if not non-existent! So any opportunity to actually SEE her perform is welcomed with open arms. I am unbelievably envious of anyone who's seen her live - particularly those people who seen her more than once. I had to reply with disgust at someone on the CSN discussion list who complained that he was sick of hearing the same old songs every time he went to a CSN concert, so he was going to skip the next few! I would equate it to having so much money, that you could use $100 bills to line a kitty-litter tray (can't think of a better simile, I'm too worked up). I do wonder though, you mention that you don't like MOA and the Refuge of the Roads video either. Have you thought that it's maybe just that you don't like live music as much as the studio-worked versions? Just a thought Please don't take offence at my ranting, but you don't know how the other half (of the planet) live! Helen NP - Graham Nash - Another Sleep Song - Joni on background vocals - unbelievable! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 04:07:29 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Court & Spark Kakki wrote: > > The song Court > & Spark itself has always intrigued me. I still want to know who this > mysterious man is in that song. When people were naming Joni's sexiest song, I thought of C&S. I just melt hearing her sing that first line, probably from the combination of her lower singing voice and the romantic notion expressed. I always imagined the man as a Jesus freak hippie type (remember them?). It seems like this man is looking for any woman who's at all open to him and once he sees that she is he claims he instantly loves her and will even complete her (whatever that means). Reminds me of the "I love you, I love you, Jesus loves you, I love you, come be with me" Jesus freak (one of the Jesus People I think the group was called) that used to harrass me on my trips into DC when I was a teenager. I remember how appealing his words sounded. Thank God though I had enough sense not to fall for it. So whenever I hear C&S I picture that guy and how he expressed such instant, intense, demanding emotion, with promises of love and belonging (completion?), wrapped up in an all-goodness Christian package, and I remember the slight pull on me, and I remember saying no. One way or another, Joni's music always becomes so personal. > I always assumed Trouble Child was written about her own experience, but > read somewhere, either here on the list, or maybe in his autobiography, that > it was written about Crosby. I never thought this was about Joni. I picture her visiting someone in a psychiatric hospital who's medicated and maybe even in restraints. The person seems much too broken to be Joni. She might be in pain sometimes, but she knows it and expresses it. It doesn't seem to have ever completely deadened her. To me Joni's much more like the person in Twisted. I assumed Trouble Child was about James Taylor since by the time C&S came out he'd already been hospitalized several times. Don't know if he was hospitalized because of heroin use or if something else was going on, but one hospital he was in was Macleans (?) near Boston, and I don't think that was a rehab center (did they even have rehab centers in the early 70s?). Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 04:12:14 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: B&O Turntable & Vinyl LP's (NJC) simon@icu.com responded to my opinionated blather.... >I searched everywhere for a needle for my B&O turntable a few years >ago and finally found one for $125. So I bought a CD player instead. >I don't miss the snap, crackle and pop of vinyl one bit! But while I >feel CDs sound 100% better than vinyl, nothing beats the warm sound >of a good old tube amp.... E.T. Stating: Subject: Re: Videos Greg from Tassie wrote: <> It took me 13 years to get my hands on the S&L video after being stunned when a friend turned me on to it back in 1984. I tried ordering it from every known record store numerous times with no luck. Finally Borders came through last year. S&L is an awesome video! I swear Joni pioneered music videos with this one (two years before MTV existed). & don't let anyone discourage you from getting the Refuge Of The Roads video! It is pure Joni.... E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:25:24 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Painting with words... likewise eric, i find all this fanatical, almost snobbish, almost frightened-child whimpering about how much BETTER joni's voice is today plain stupid too. i wasn't embarrassed watching pwwam, but i wasn't thrilled either. go carly, indeed! as if we needed to make that kind of choice on the list. "oh you don't like joni's voice today, well, go mariah!" and help me isn't necessarily my favorite joni mitchell song either. wallyk > What is wrong with you guys?! How anyone, especially a Joni fan, could >be embarrassed by PWWAM blows my mind! So she can no longer hit the high >notes in Just Like This Train?! I find Joni's latest rendition of Big Yellow >Taxi a BIG improvement. > I suspect that your outspoken dislike of Mingus explains it all. You >like pop. Go Carly! > Joni's voice sounds as good to me on PWWAM as it does on TTT and to >suggest that her voice was altered on the CD by some technician in the >studio is just plain stupid! > CatGirl is not the one who desparately needs an ear, Catman.... > :<& > E.T. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:10:52 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Painting with words... > She sounds great! I don't know what you expect from someone who is 55 years > old I don't think age has anything to do with it! Carly is only a year(maybe 2) younger and still has her voice-in fact probably better than ever. > but she still gets me going! I loved watching that video..it gave me > goosebumps! > Catgirl - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:04:01 -0500 From: James Leahy Subject: Re: Against Therapy Thanks for an insightful critique of psychotherapy. I have avoided traditional psychiatrists for the very reasons you have cited: their very jobs depend on keeping you unhappy. Here's one Joni quote that has stuck in my psyche all these years: "Guru books--the bible Only a reminder That you're just not good enough." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:21:09 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Fwd: B&O Turntable & Vinyl LP's - --part1_fabc15b6.244dcb35_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part1_fabc15b6.244dcb35_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Ginamu@aol.com From: Ginamu@aol.com Full-name: Ginamu Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:20:41 EDT Subject: Re: B&O Turntable & Vinyl LP's To: simon@icu.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 246 Reply-To: Ginamu@aol.com In a message dated 4/19/99 11:10:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, simon@icu.com writes: > you say "I feel CDs sound 100% better than vinyl". > > to which i reply "feelings aren't facts". > > most audiophiles and other 'critical' listeners know better. > I have an ignorant question: Does anyone still record on analog? I recall reading some years back that Neil Young then was still insisting on it. Gina - --part1_fabc15b6.244dcb35_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:26:23 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Fwd: NJC - Sarah Jane Morris - --part1_dcefa1f2.244dcc6f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --part1_dcefa1f2.244dcc6f_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Ginamu@aol.com From: Ginamu@aol.com Full-name: Ginamu Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:25:58 EDT Subject: Re: NJC - Sarah Jane Morris To: jpalis@kssp.upd.edu.ph MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 246 Reply-To: Ginamu@aol.com In a message dated 4/20/99 2:19:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jpalis@kssp.upd.edu.ph writes: > The last time I did a double take on the strength of a vocalist's voice > was when June Tabor sang an Elvis Costello song Would this song be All This Useless Beauty or does June cover something else by EC as well? I was totally blown away by that song when I heard it and I had to go out and buy my first June Tabor record because of it. Elvis' version on the album of the same title is very good also. I recall reading or hearing or whatever that Elvis had said it was one of the crowning accomplishments of his career to write a song that June Tabor would want to record. June obviously has her fans. Take care, Gina - --part1_dcefa1f2.244dcc6f_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:34:21 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni's HDCDs Eric Taylor wrote: > when you could be discovering the > finest five consecutive albums ever released by a single artist - HOSL, > Hejira, DJRD, Mingus, S&L!!! > Well, you're 4/5's right! Jerry :^) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:37:21 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) While I love the poetic waxing you guys attribute great interpretation to C&S Ive always felt it was simply about the meeting of a typically highly charged idealistic guy whos great in the sack who encounters a woman with a career and her choice is whether to go for the passion and thus change her life or return to her real life and career. Joni has written several songs about encounters of various kinds. Ive always felt C&S was about one of them as Midway, Michael from Mountains, Crazy Cries, etc etc. But thanks for your deep insightful readings of the song. The album itself in my opinion caps off the first phase of her career. It strikes me that these are the last of a great batch of songs written in the early part of her career. The words are LA but the music seems "eastern" to me. I noticed several borrowings of technique from this album on HOSL so Im assuming it was then that she began to realize she was about out of the arrangement and musical concepts she had developed over her life. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:42:35 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Fwd: NJC - Sarah Jane Morris - --IMA.Boundary.9032164290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part - --IMA.Boundary.9032164290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Gina writes: <> All This Useless Beauty is a fascinating record as it contains songs Elvis wrote specifically for other artists to record - it's fun to see how he writes in such different styles for different artists...I can't wait to hear him on the Joni tribute - any update on that Wally? Bob NP: Car On A Hill - --IMA.Boundary.9032164290-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:00:27 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Painting with words... Eric Taylor wrote: > A good > rule of thumb is not to pass judgment on an album or video until you've > heard it at least three times. I realize that this is not easy in our pop > culture of snap decisions but there's always hope.... Great JMDL advice! I remember putting on DJRD for the first time and hearing Paprika Plains and thinking "What the hell is she doing now?!" It's become one of my favorites over the years. The sign of true genius. Hers, not mine. np: Music From the house of Iona ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:29:33 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) Kakki said: <> You know Kakki, I was actually going to post on the MUSIC of C&S and comment on the musicians, etc (and I'll get to that eventually), but after listening to the record 6-7 times in a row I picked up on the SEQUENCING, how she uses her glorious piano to segue cautious optimism to exuberant joy to sorrow and emptiness. Prior to yesterday, I never thought of the record as a cycle at all, but like we've said before, isn't that the majesty of Joni's canon, that it provides re-discovered treasure... And what's the deal with cactuses anyway? Cactus Tree, cactuses outside the train window, The Cactus Tree motel in Amelia...what do cacti represent? Does she relate to the cactus as a survivor in a desert environment, and equate herself to it? But I digress... <> And while I know the Geffen connection here, I think we can shortchange ourself by saying "OK, I know what this song's about, on to the next one". I admit it's the weakest link in the song cycle, though..I'd love to hear what other folks think about the placement of Free Man on the record... <> I think you're on the mark here - Joni picks up on/longs for the "free-spirited-ness" of the guy...and I see her drawn to him more than the other way around... <> And what's significant and fascinating here is that what he really only says is "All the Guilty People"...why do the quotes end here? Joni had to write it that way for some reason. I'm not so sure that *he says he can complete her* or *she thinks that's what he's saying*. As you know, what one sex says and what the other sex hears are very often polar opposites...:~) The nature of relationships is that each party is looking to fill in their own gaps. <> I agree with you on the use of "fallen angels", but it seems to me that she ultimately *DOES* fall for him - look where the next song goes: Help me, I think I'm falling in love again I'm in trouble, 'cause you're a rambler and a gambler and a sweet-talkin' ladies man...seems to me like she's definitely been reeled in. You don't see this guy as the same guy who ignited the spark? <> And marcel stated: "While I love the poetic waxing you guys attribute great interpretation to C&S Ive always felt it was simply about the meeting of a typically highly charged idealistic guy whos great in the sack who encounters a woman with a career and her choice is whether to go for the passion and thus change her life or return to her real life and career." And who knows? But we can all agree that it's a much deeper work than it's usually credited with being... Hoping this discussion isn't ending but only beginning, Bob NP: Down To You ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:49:44 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Court & Spark Debra Shea writes about "Trouble Child": <> Which is why she covers the song and places it right after TC...to give her story a happy ending. Look at the references: 1. In "Help Me", she 'gets that CRAZY feeling again'... 2. In "People's Parties", she says (as a throwaway) "I told you when I met you I was CRAZY". 3. In "Just Like This Train", she realizes that 'jealous lovin' will make you CRAZY, if you can't find your goodness 'cause you lost your heart'. IMO, when she sees the unattached barfly broad in "Raised on Robbery", it pushes her over the edge to where she feels she has to DO something - she knows simple advice and religion aren't going to resolve it, so she turns to Professional advice in "Trouble Child", probably a combination of her own experiences with therapy as well as those of others close to her. It IS tough to think of Joni in this situation as we care for her SO deeply... But (like we've mentioned in the Therapy thread) ultimately she realizes: 1. she has to solve her own problems, and 2. there's really nothing wrong with her at all, and "Twisted" is the resolution to the whole mini-opera... Of course, I could be all wet!! Bob NP: Twisted ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:55:09 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) Marcel notes: <> I totally agree, and I think MOA is the closer, just like S&L is the closer to the second phase... Bob NP: The Who, "Bargain" (gotta take a break from C&S :~)) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:26:58 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Painting with words, music and VCRs Having reviewed the recent discussions of PWWAM, there are just a couple of things I'd like to point out. First of all, I've played my copy three or four times, and find the sound wanting. Hi-Fi VHS is pretty darned good, as tape goes, so I don't think this is a format issue. But this begs my first question ... are we talking about the DVD issue as well? I'll stay out of that corner, since I'm still in 'wait and see' mode on the whole DVD marketing blitz. So that being said, what I do know is that all VCRs are not created equal ... and this is even more true when you start talking about audio playback. Only at the highest end do you get audio playback that even approaches the quality of the video. So it is quite likely that many are actually NOT HEARING the entire audio track on their tapes. And if you're listening on just your TV speakers ... well I'm no audiophile, but what are you expecting? I'll defer to Paz or Marcel a bit on this next point, since they're the experts, but I do know that miking for TV sound vs. CD sound are very diffent beasts. PWWAM is kind of unique in this respect. It's not like a "live concert" video, where sound is the primary goal, and the pictures are nice to have. This is a TV show, an intimate gathering, where it was hoped that the sound would be "acceptable." I think the goal of this project was much more to project "Joni the artist", rather than "Joni the voice." It seems far more attention was paid to video editing, smoothing and enhancement -- which so far, no one's complained about! The audio shortcomings, at least the ones I hear, seem a product of engineering, mixing and mastering decisions - -- as opposed to any deteriorating of Joni's voice or her band's playing. I say this for a couple of reasons. First off, the recent concert tour. If Joni's lost her voice, she sure got it back in a hell of a hurry. Some can, and will carp about the 30+ years of smoking, but if it's really done that much damage, you sure couldn't tell at the United Center in Chicago -- or the recent bootleg of Madison Square Garden that Bob Muller was so kind as to copy for me. Voices don't just "come back" like that -- unlike video sound, which can be manipulated as easily as the text of this rambling missive of mine. Thanks for putting up with it! Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:20:26 EDT From: Clancyhart@aol.com Subject: sour grapes, she's lost her voice i don't think any of us can deny that joni's voice has changed. personally, i love that it has. "something's lost but something's gained"....she has lived a life full of joy and sorrow, just like the rest of us. don't you want to hear that reflected in her voice? i feel like there is an edge, a wisdom, that comes through in ways that it didn't when she was younger. i feel the same way about emmylou harris (wrecking ball just took my breath away.) but all of that having been said, i thought the responses to paul's post were way too scathing. nobody should be afraid to express their opinion here. amy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:24:23 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Matala, Joni songs I like to play Been away for a while (holidays in Crete!) so I'm catching up on digests right now. While in Crete I visited Matala and saw the caves there. Tried to find the Mermaid cafe so that we could have fun that night, but no luck :-( We had a pretty good luck round, but it's possible we missed it. Anyone else ever found it? The closest we got was the Seahorse cafe! It was fun to visit Matala, but I have to say it is very much a "tourist town". Probably a lot more so than it was in Joni's days! One odd thing. Although it was a perfectly clear night, we couldn't see the moon at Matala. We kept a look-out for it for the rest of our time on Crete, and for some strange reason, we could never see it! Most nights were perfect for star-gazing, but no moon! Re: the thread on Joni songs that people play I play a lot of stuff on guitar - difficult (I'm too lazy!) to list all the Joni guitar songs that I play. I play most from C&S, HOSL, Hejira and TTT, and bits and pieces from all the other albums. Recently I've been getting into the Wolf that lives ... on the guitar. Spooky. As for piano stuff, I've been working on banquet a lot recently. From Blue I play the title track and The Last Time I Saw Richard. I also love playing parts from Court and Spark and Down To You. For Free is also fun (and easier!) to play. Howard ******************************************************* Howard.Wright@ed.ac.uk Well it's a cold bowl of chilli When love lets you down Neil Young ******************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:54:17 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Painting with words, music and VCRs Dom mentions: <> Only passing on the kindness of the "branch" that provided it to me...I will add that Don made and sent me a great J-card for the tape with a color photo & everything. I'm assuming this show will be a part of TT#8??? It's significant as it contains a live version of DJRD... Bob NP: The Goo Goo Dolls, "Name" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:53:59 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: analog (NJC) Ginamu@aol.com wrote: > I have an ignorant question: Does anyone still record on analog? I recall > reading some years back that Neil Young then was still insisting on it. > Alot of top producers still swear by analog, and the big studios have both analog and digital recorders. Some use a hybrid of both, for instance, on Michael Jackson's last album, the vocals and drums were recorded analog, and the rest digital. When you hit an analog tape hard, you get "tape compression", also a warm type of distortion that some feel is appropriately musical for rock/pop music. RR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:46:57 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Peoples Park Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:38:30 -0700 From: Russell Bowden Kakki wrote: The song Court & Spark itself has always intrigued me. I still want to know who this mysterious man is in that song. I've wondered if the reference to burying the coins he made in People's Park (which I think is/was in Berkeley - my Today (April 20th) is the 30th Anniversary of the founding of People's Park in Berkeley, CA. In the SF Chronicle today there is an article recounting the birth, history and present day state of the area. The article begins: People's Park--that small, history-haunted reservoir of the social revolution that swept over Berkeley in the late '60's turns 30 years old today amid new strife over its future and a big question that remains unanswered: What exactly is People's Park? It goes on to mention the one person killed, one man was blinded and 128 people were injured in the riot known as "Bloody Thursday" of 4/20/69. Is it a grass-and-flowers haven for hippie-era ideals, a weed-ridden eyesore harboring derelicts and drug-dealers or something else entirely? I have visited the Park many times over the last twenty years, and have definitely 'felt' the romance of the place, especially highlighted by JM's mention of "he was playin' on the sidewalk for (Free?) passin' change, when something strange happened, Glory train passed through him, so he buried the coins he made in People's Park and went looking for a woman to Court and Spark." WOW! Goose-pimply all over!!!! Russ in San Francisco NP: Court and Spark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:01:45 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Beg to disagree: she's lost her voice First of all, I couldnt agree more with the fact that everyone is truly entitled to their opinion regardless of how wrong that might seem to someone else on the list. I absolutely beleive that. I have at various times really been amazed at some of the opinions that have been posted on many matters and in some cases I know the opinion is wrong or misguided or uninformed but so what. Who cares. Even on the highly charged political stuff. This whole thing reminds me of a vibrant lively european cafe as opposed to an opinionated herd of American barflies. This having been said I must say that someone who says Joni has "lost her voice" is wrong for a couple (at least) of reasons. (1) Her voice is not something recorded 30 years ago, that was her voice THEN. Her voice NOW is what it is. Joni cant do a 360 jam taking off from foul line anymore either. (2) The voice of course is created by muscles and tissues in the throat interacting with air passing through. As people get older (just as in ballet) it gets more and more difficult to maintain the parts of the mechanism that produce the upper and lower registers. When one is young the mechanism is supple and because of a lifestyle which generally includes nightly workouts the voice can go on without trying to do anything. When one becomes successful and makes money that lifestyle changes. Nightly 4 hour gigs with post gig jams (and other distractions) segue into long periods of non-music money spending and traveling. Practice and workouts never end for the operatic singer but get fewer and far between for the pop, rock, folk or everyday singer. In other words whether one is a singer or ballet dancer or pro golfer or pro chessplayer, peak abilities and reflexes must be constantly used and practiced. Without that the abilities decay. However ART is different in an important way. Art generally is not clearing the bar at 7 feet or batting 300 or completing a triple spin. Singing is INTERPRETATION. To say Joni has lost her voice is just like saying that Picasso lost his ability to paint after he left cubism. Its just not true. Joni stopped singing like she used to, stylistically. Shes way more mature and with age comes grace and elan. Just as the rookie basketball player is a whirling dirvish of excess moves jumping and diving all over the place while the veteran hardly seems to move around at all but still gets the job done in singing it is very similar. Try to imagine the Clouds-Joni (who did Tin Angel) doing Crazy Cries of Love, or Sire of Sorrow. Just a whole different style is required to do the new stuff justice. there is no doubt that her smoking has added some layers of stuff to her vocal chords but then who ever complained about Sammy Davis Junior, or Frank Sinatra "losing their voice". Frankly Joni has replaced the youthful dexterity with a sultry assurredness. The voice she has now is more or less required to do the material she is doing now. I will never forget the last tour of Jimmy Durante. here was a guy who was very old and had almost zero voice (as we know it) all crackly and knarly, who never finished a song, who told all clean jokes, and who put on an absolutely spellbinding show. He interpreted his songs through the instrument he had left. I didnt hear him sing in 1917 only in 1976 or thereabouts. What I heard was more than good enough to capture the mind and soul of that great entertainer and give me a once in a lifetime experience. Isnt that what its all about. So for all of you out there who dont like Joni's voice, you dont get to hear her words, and you dont get to enjoy her personality while she performs, you may remain forever in your prison of opinion rueing something that is important to you but irrelevant to the artist. Picture it this way, if a friend came and told you that Picasso was sitting in the park down the street and painting a picture would you go there to see him first hand or would you say "Nah, he cant do art anymore". marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:30:49 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: like washing on a line NJC It seems this expression is not understood. I don't mean I am feeling sad at all. No just that some people would think it said that a 40 year old man got a thrill out of hanging out laundry! It's an English expression. catman wrote: > Okay, so I am really sad, but what a thrill it was to do laundry and > hang it OUTSIDE in the garden on a real washing line! > bw > colin > > -- > > CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST > http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html > TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS > http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:13:02 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Beg to disagree: she's lost her voice I did not make myself claer it would seem or people have attributed meaning that I did not intend. I prefer Joni's modern voice as displayed on TTT, TI, and NRH. However, I was refering to the sound of it on PWWAM. I think it was dreadful. That is it. I don't think she is dreadful nor do I think those that disagree are dreadful Nor do I think i am dreadful for thinking she sounded dreadful!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:29:48 +0100 From: jeverett@postmaster.co.uk Subject: Joni songbooks - Need! Sorry to interrupt the PWWAM discussion, but this message is a plea to anyone out there who has any Joni songbooks. They are so hard to find. I'm performing a concert and need to locate anyone with "For the Roses", "Mingus" and "Blue", the album books total (as in, the whole book with the whole album "For the Roses"). I'd like to know by September, if that's possible. I'll take copies, scans/e-mails, faxes, whatever. Send a message privately, if you'd like, to jeverett@postmaster.co.uk Thank you, everyone and all! You will be rewarded, in whatever denomination of currency or karma you'd like! Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:48:55 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) Bob wrote: > And what's the deal with cactuses anyway? Cactus Tree, cactuses outside the > train window, The Cactus Tree motel in Amelia...what do cacti represent? > Does she relate to the cactus as a survivor in a desert environment, and > equate herself to it? But I digress... An age-old Joni question, no doubt. She definitely digs those cute prickly cacti. > And what's significant and fascinating here is that what he really only says > is "All the Guilty People"...why do the quotes end here? Joni had to write > it that way for some reason. I'm not so sure that *he says he can complete > her* or *she thinks that's what he's saying*. As you know, what one sex says > and what the other sex hears are very often polar opposites...:~) The nature > of relationships is that each party is looking to fill in their own gaps. Hmm, I always thought the whole stanza was being spoken by him - that's the way it reads to me. > I agree with you on the use of "fallen angels", but it seems to me that she > ultimately *DOES* fall for him - look where the next song goes: > Help me, I think I'm falling in love again > I'm in trouble, 'cause you're a rambler and a gambler and a sweet-talkin' > ladies man...seems to me like she's definitely been reeled in. You don't see > this guy as the same guy who ignited the spark? They are two different and opposite guys to me. One is the romantic, quasi-religious hippie, perhaps member of the "Jesus People" or other type of group. She can't go with it so returns to "L.A." and meets the hot, hot blazes guy in "Help Me" who is a whole other character - a "rambler, and a gambler and a sweet-talkin' ladies man" who "loves [his] lovin' but not like he loves his freedom." I hate to think of it but that description could apply equally to either Warren Beatty or Jack Nicholson, both of whom she was involved with in this time frame. > And marcel stated: "While I love the poetic waxing you guys attribute great > interpretation to C&S Ive always felt it was simply about the meeting of a > typically highly charged idealistic guy whos great in the sack who > encounters a woman with a career and her choice is whether to go for the > passion and thus change her life or return to her real life and career." Ah geez, Marcel. None of Joni's songs are that simple. > And who knows? But we can all agree that it's a much deeper work than it's > usually credited with being... I think all of C&S is deeper than may seem to some on the surface. I think the combination of Joni's usual depth and accessibility was what made this album so much more popular to the mainstream at the time. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:16:08 -0700 From: DARICEM@sfpl.lib.ca.us Subject: NJC- Van Gogh show I have two tickets to the Van Gogh show in LA for Monday April 26, 11:00 am. I will not be able to use them. Any takers? Darice ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:39:59 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) In a message dated 4/19/1999 10:26:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RMuRocks@aol.com writes: << And of course, she takes the road-trip part to completion a couple of albums later...what was the name of that one again?? :~D Bob >> Of course she has to sink into suburbia first.....then she really had to leave! Catgirl....hisssssss..summer lawns ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:58:15 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) Kakki says: <> It could just be water retention! :~* > And what's significant and fascinating here is that what he really only says > is "All the Guilty People"...why do the quotes end here? Joni had to write > it that way for some reason. I'm not so sure that *he says he can complete > her* or *she thinks that's what he's saying*. As you know, what one sex says > and what the other sex hears are very often polar opposites...:~) The nature > of relationships is that each party is looking to fill in their own gaps. <> And it could just be a typo, but I wonder why the first segment is a quote and the rest of it's not...your interpretation sure makes a lot of sense though. <> And all that makes a lot of sense too - thanks for your take on it, it's interesting to see the differences in the masculine/feminine interpretations of the song... <> It's that subliminal Joni hoodoo thing...she gets you listening with the beauty and textures of the music and then you start thinking about what she's saying... Bob NP: The Chantays, "Pipeline" (appropriate tune for conversation with a CA girl! :~) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:05:02 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Court & Spark In a message dated 4/20/1999 4:07:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dskARTS@concentric.net writes: << I never thought this was about Joni. I picture her visiting someone in a psychiatric hospital who's medicated and maybe even in restraints. The person seems much too broken to be Joni. She might be in pain sometimes, but she knows it and expresses it. It doesn't seem to have ever completely deadened her. To me Joni's much more like the person in Twisted. I assumed Trouble Child was about James Taylor since by the time C&S came out he'd already been hospitalized several times. Don't know if he was hospitalized because of heroin use or if something else was going on, but one hospital he was in was Macleans (?) near Boston, and I don't think that was a rehab center (did they even have rehab centers in the early 70s?). Debra Shea >> I agree with you Debra. I never thought Troubled Child was ever about her but twisted? OH YEAH! Now that is Joni! Catgirl....gonna have to put that album on next all this talk has me wanting!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:09:52 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Painting with words... In a message dated 4/20/1999 5:29:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes: << likewise eric, i find all this fanatical, almost snobbish, almost frightened-child whimpering about how much BETTER joni's voice is today plain stupid too. i wasn't embarrassed watching pwwam, but i wasn't thrilled either. go carly, indeed! as if we needed to make that kind of choice on the list. "oh you don't like joni's voice today, well, go mariah!" and help me isn't necessarily my favorite joni mitchell song either. wallyk >> Joni's voice is like a river....it started out fresh and young and has eventually, through time and space and age, emptied into the ocean.. There is NOTHING wrong with her voice now or ever. Her voice is allowed to change just like all of ours. For me, there is no favorable voice of hers. I like it all because it is simply HERS ! Catgirl..getting up and pulling out my CAS..any voice of hers will do :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:14:31 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Painting with words... In a message dated 4/20/1999 6:11:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << She sounds great! I don't know what you expect from someone who is 55 years > old I don't think age has anything to do with it! Carly is only a year(maybe 2) younger and still has her voice-in fact probably better than ever. > but she still gets me going! I loved watching that video..it gave me > goosebumps! > Catgirl >> Sure it does. As we get older our voices do change. Sure she smokes alot which doesn't help, but I still love her voice anyway you play it! Catgirl NP:Court and Spark-title song ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:20:43 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Painting with words... In a message dated 4/20/1999 9:01:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: << Great JMDL advice! I remember putting on DJRD for the first time and hearing Paprika Plains and thinking "What the hell is she doing now?!" It's become one of my favorites over the years. The sign of true genius. Hers, not mine. np: Music From the house of Iona >> Me too and you know to this day I enjoy it more and more. the last time I played that album certain lines just stuck into my head all day for days..... Catgirl...can't think of them now because Free man in Paris is on.....CAS ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #171 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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