From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #170 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, April 20 1999 Volume 04 : Number 170 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: cocaine [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Painting with words... ["Kakki" ] Re: Painting with words... ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) [RMuRocks@aol.com] RE: Painting with words... [Don Sloan ] Re: Painting with words... [Ginamu@aol.com] B&O Turntable & Vinyl LP's [simon@icu.com] Painting with Words(JC) [Lisa Kowalski ] Re: Painting with words... [CaTGirl627@aol.com] SJC RE: B&O Turntable & Vinyl LP's ["Wally Kairuz" ] Nick Drake (Some JC) ["John Low" ] Re: Joni's HDCDs ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Painting with words... ["Eric Taylor" ] David Lahm [Michael Paz ] Re: Painting with words... ["Eric Taylor" ] NJC - Sarah Jane Morris [Joseph Palis ] Re: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) ["Kakki" that that particular song was written by this Joni Mitchell. > >> That song was written by Rev. Gary Davis Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:01:10 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Painting with words... Paul T. tapes his regrets to the microphone stand: > It kills me to post this, because I know how much this concert(s) meant to > some of you listers but... I have to confess that I have taken my copy of > Painting with Words and Music back to the shop. I do believe this is the saddest post I've ever read. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:24:24 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Painting with words... I was also disappointed with the quality of Joni's voice in this show. It had no strength and no flexibility at all. But "lost" is such a permanent word. By the time I heard her live at Woodstock, and again in Madison Square Garden, her voice sounded much stronger. > And worst of all, Joni, my > darling favouritist Joni, has lost her voice... and her eloquence... Deb Messling ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:19:41 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) In a message dated 4/19/99 9:06:32 PM Central Daylight Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << I really like your take on C&S but do you think of it primarily as an L.A.-tinged story? >> Absolutely not, Kakki! It's a universal story, I mention LA because she does: "I couldn't let go of LA, city of the fallen angels"...it seems like she begins and ends there but it could've been anywhere really. The People's parties are also across the globe; that's why we can all relate to the scenes she depicts. And of course, she takes the road-trip part to completion a couple of albums later...what was the name of that one again?? :~D Bob NP: Louis Armstrong "Jeepers Creepers" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:31:03 -0700 From: Don Sloan Subject: RE: Painting with words... "paul tyrer" wrote: > Aggh. > > It kills me to post this, because I know how much this concert(s) meant to > some of you listers but... I have to confess that I have taken my copy of > Painting with Words and Music back to the shop. > > I have every Joni LP, plus most again on cd, and with the exception of Miles > and Aisles (which still has good tracks), WTRF (which has the almost > redeeming it's so fantastic Chinese Cafe) and the Refuge of the Roads video > (aggh! again) have loved every moment. But I hated PwWaM. > > The backing sound was way too polite, I thought. The songs didn't fit > together very well (I found the set gloomy). And worst of all, Joni, my > darling favouritist Joni, has lost her voice... and her eloquence... > > I am just hugely disappointed. Anyone else feel the same? > PX > Maybe you had to be there :-). Actually, I recently got my copy of the video and wasn't overly enthused, but I decided it was due to the tape in no way comparing to my memories of those two enchanting evenings. Certainly the sound - especially as it comes out of my little TV speakers - does not in ANY way do justice to the way that great band (IMO) sounded live. Don ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:38:21 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Painting with words... In a message dated 4/19/99 8:31:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: > Paul-John and I sat and watched PWWAM in silence. With John not being a fan, > I > was embarrassed by it. I agree with you-it was awful and I do think she has > lost > her voice. It is amazing what one can do in a studio to get the sound so > good on > a cd. So many people sound dreadful live and I am afraid this counts as one. > > paul tyrer wrote: > > > Aggh. > > > > It kills me to post this, because I know how much this concert(s) meant to > > some of you listers but... I have to confess that I have taken my copy of > > Painting with Words and Music back to the shop. > > > > I have every Joni LP, plus most again on cd, and with the exception of > Miles > > and Aisles (which still has good tracks), WTRF (which has the almost > > redeeming it's so fantastic Chinese Cafe) and the Refuge of the Roads > video > > (aggh! again) have loved every moment. But I hated PwWaM. > > > > The backing sound was way too polite, I thought. The songs didn't fit > > together very well (I found the set gloomy). And worst of all, Joni, my > > darling favouritist Joni, has lost her voice... and her eloquence... > > > > I am just hugely disappointed. Anyone else feel the same? > > PX Maybe I'm just a hopelessly devoted fan but I loved PWWAM. I thought Joni looked and sounded great. Her voice has changed but I wouldn't say she's *losing* it, but rather she is *using* it differently and very effectively. I am no technical expert on music but my husband who is a jazz aficionado and plays piano, thought the band was great and his opinion was that they were understated in order to showcase Joni's performance (though perhaps I'm not doing his point of view justice here). I thought the song choices were great and not any more unrelated than a greatest hits retrospective would be. I think she chose her material wisely with the exception of the opener Big Yellow Taxi. I could have done without the Dylan imitation which suited Joan Baez rather better some years ago. Some of my favorite songs are performed on this video: Song For Sharon, Black Crow, Amelia, Hejira and Just Like This Train. The performance was made for TV. It wasn't spontaneous concert footage like Shadows and Light. What we saw of Joni here is what she now has to offer us. I'm pleased. Gina NP: Sam Phillips, Cruel Inventions ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:08:36 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: B&O Turntable & Vinyl LP's Eric Taylor writes ... >_______________________________________________________________________ >I searched everywhere for a needle for my B&O turntable a few years >ago and finally found one for $125. So I bought a CD player instead. >I don't miss the snap, crackle and pop of vinyl one bit! But while I >feel CDs sound 100% better than vinyl, nothing beats the warm sound of >a good old tube amp. > >E.T. >_______________________________________________________________________ if truth be known Eric, $125 isn't all that expensive for a quality phono-cartridge. of course the problem with B&O turntables is that they will *only* accept B&O Cartridges. this severly limits your choices and leaves you beholden to B&O. however, even given this limitation, they're fine turntables (for the money). contrary to popular opinion in some quarters 'snap, crackle and pops' are *not* inherent to Vinyl LPs. they're an indication of a record that's not been properly cared for, abused, or played on a turntable with an improperly calibrated tonearm/cartridge combination. i have records in my collection that date from the late 50's and 60's and sound as clear, clean and fresh as the day they were new. quite a few of these are *clearly* sonically superior to their CD reissues. you say "I feel CDs sound 100% better than vinyl". to which i reply "feelings aren't facts". most audiophiles and other 'critical' listeners know better. the real shame here is that most people have never actually heard an album played on 'state-of-the-art' equipment and therefore have no real appreciation for the true nature of Analog LP reproduction. BTW: wanna hear the 1st four Beatles albums in Stereo? the LPs are your *only* choice. the CDs are Mono. and the Mobile Fidelity 1/2 Speed Mastered LP's definitely sound better than the CDs. and it's not really that the CDs sound bad ... you really need to hear a comparasion to hear and know the difference. ever hear "For The Roses" on a Sota, Linn Sondek, or VPI Turntable? you'd be amazed! listen, i'm not one of those audiophiles that's going to tell you that Digital sucks, or that all LPs are sonically superior to all CDs all the time. BUT it's also false that digital recording and CDs represent a great advance in the state-of-the-art of recording. you'd be surprised at the number of musicians who continue to record their Album 'Masters' in the Analog domain and only then convert to Digital. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- "The main reason Santa is so jolly is because HE knows where all the bad girls live." - Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:42:23 From: Lisa Kowalski Subject: Painting with Words(JC) Hey You'all I love PwWaM!!(I've watched it 3 times in the past 2 weeks)I thought the set was gorgeous,lush and colorful;the seating looked very comfy and intimate;Joni looked absolutely beautiful. She seemed very relaxed ,very pleased with herself,plus she looked like she was having a great time(especially when she sang "Why do Fools Fall In Love ",Trouble Man" and "Comes Love" I was grinning ear to ear when she danced with her friend and when she told that wonderfuland funny story of her knitting experience.(The woman was having fun and being very playfulIMHO!)As far as her voice goes,I mean lets face it,her voice is not going to be crystal clear and perfect like it was when she was 25,and when you consider all the smoking she's done over the years I still think she sounded great for 54! Anyway,FWIW I had to express how much I enjoyed this concert and how much I wished I could have been there! Respectfully....Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:58:42 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Painting with words... In a message dated 4/19/1999 6:50:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul@tyrer23.freeserve.co.uk writes: << The backing sound was way too polite, I thought. The songs didn't fit together very well (I found the set gloomy). And worst of all, Joni, my darling favouritist Joni, has lost her voice... and her eloquence... I am just hugely disappointed. Anyone else feel the same? PX >> She sounds great! I don't know what you expect from someone who is 55 years old but she still gets me going! I loved watching that video..it gave me goosebumps! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:59:18 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: SJC RE: B&O Turntable & Vinyl LP's The first time I heard LOTC was the vynil on a marvelous stereo. I have NEVER EVER been able to hear such quality, such immediacy again. I'm lazy and I'm careless, that's why I don't have a turntable. As to digital recordings, give ADD any day of the week. Seldom has DDD risen to the occasion. wallyK Simom says >you'd be surprised at the number of musicians who continue to record >their Album 'Masters' in the Analog domain and only then convert to >Digital. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:59:42 +1000 From: "Cupit, Greg" Subject: Videos I initially got onto this list to try and find out how to get hold of the Shadows & Light video. And now, within the space of 4 days, I'm overwhelmed with 2 Joni videos!! I picked up my ordered copy of PWW&M from the local record store on Friday, then on Monday the postman knocks on my door with S&L from CDNow. So, a huge thanks to Manno Toshikazu in Japan (hope you're still on the list) for putting me onto CDNow and eventually getting S&L. I've been looking for it for 18 years ever since I saw it broadcast on TV in Melbourne. Misson accomplished. Greg from Tassie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:07:13 PDT From: "John Low" Subject: Nick Drake (Some JC) In a message dated Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:57:55 EDT Azeem writes about Nick Drake: " a couple of weeks ago I finally splashed out on the complete works, aka the box set "Fruit Tree", and I was not disappointed. I'd heard a lot of his stuff over the years and always liked it. To listen to those three albums all the way through in quick succession was a revelation "Time of No Reply", the collection of unreleased stuff, is not quite as essential). I found it relatively cheap (30 quid) in a second hand shop. For those on a limited budget, "Way to Blue" is a lovely compilation; if you're buying the albums one by one, I suggest you start with "Bryter Later", then "Five Leaves Left", then "Pink Moon". I came to Nick Drake late after lots of recommendations and bought his three albums one after another. Like Azeem, I was not disappointed. It is hauntingly beautiful music, shot through with sadness. Musicians like Richard Thompson (and other Fairport members), bassist Danny Thompson and John Cale all make contributions, though the last album "Pink Moon" is Nick alone, a stark and desperate album. In my first post I was not entirely correct when I said that no-one had compared the music of Nick Drake and Joni Mitchell. Brian Hinton, in his Joni biography, noted briefly how, by the time of FTR Joni's music was "edging already towards jazz in its phrasings, like the finest work of Nick Drake". (p.148) I think the comparison begins earlier than FTR, but that's just my opinion. A more comprehensive comparison of their work awaits the attention of some keen musicologist. I note that the canonisation of "Hejira" is being questioned and that's as it should be. I am certainly enjoying Joni's recent work, particularly "Turbulent Indigo", and have no idea of what is yet to come but, at present, "Hejira" is still at the top of my Joni 'hit parade' and I've heard nothing yet to change that position. John. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:20:21 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Joni's HDCDs Luke wrote: <<....I had the HDCD copy of "For the Roses" without knowing it (I was just lucky that Borders sent me that one when I ordered it) and was sort of wondering all along why it sounded so good until I discovered it was HDCD. But "Court and Spark" just doesn't sound that different to me. I really want "Song to a Seagull" and "Blue" on HDCD, but I'll have to keep looking. And I still don't have anything between "Court and Spark" and "Dog Eat Dog"....>> Oh WOW Luke I can't believe that you're wasting your money upgrading Joni CDs you already have (if you don't yet own an expensive new CD player with an HDCD chip to hear the difference) when you could be discovering the finest five consecutive albums ever released by a single artist - HOSL, Hejira, DJRD, Mingus, S&L!!! Why are you depriving yourself so? E.T. NP: Bjork Homogenic ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:54:47 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Painting with words... paul@tyrer23.freeserve.co.uk blasphemed: <> Definately NOT Paul! Geez, I must assume that you don't like anything past Court & Spark.... That's okay. Joni lost most of her pop fans when she delved into her most innovative work back in the mid-70s. I for one think Joni's sound has improved over the years. PWWAC completely transfixed me. I find her evolving translations of songs refreshing and MUCH prefer her present raw silk voice to the squeeky-clean pop sound of Help Me (I bet that's one of your favorites). ;~D PWWAC is a keeper if only for Comes Love and Song For Sharon. A good rule of thumb is not to pass judgment on an album or video until you've heard it at least three times. I realize that this is not easy in our pop culture of snap decisions but there's always hope.... E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:00:41 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: David Lahm I picked up "Jazz Takes On Joni Mitchell" today at Tower and I am blown away after only 2 complete listens. I don't want to say to much now, but I will say this album is definitely worth the price of admission and I would say it is a must have for ANY Joni fan and ANY jazz fan. Hats off to you David (with my drink glass raised high to you and of course the great band). I plan to review album for the list as soon as I get a chance to give it the time it merits. Love Michael NP-The Humming Of Computer Songs (Hmm I may have to try my hand at a song parody) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:20:30 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Painting with words... catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk likewise blasphemed: <> What is wrong with you guys?! How anyone, especially a Joni fan, could be embarrassed by PWWAM blows my mind! So she can no longer hit the high notes in Just Like This Train?! I find Joni's latest rendition of Big Yellow Taxi a BIG improvement. I suspect that your outspoken dislike of Mingus explains it all. You like pop. Go Carly! Joni's voice sounds as good to me on PWWAM as it does on TTT and to suggest that her voice was altered on the CD by some technician in the studio is just plain stupid! CatGirl is not the one who desparately needs an ear, Catman.... :<& E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:18:48 +0800 (PST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: NJC - Sarah Jane Morris Does anyone know this fabulous singer Sarah Jane Morris? Other than her being British and her "Me and Mrs. Jones" version, I don't know a thing about her. She blew me away with her contralto voice that reminds me of Julia Fordham, Patti Cathcart, Heather Small, Anita Baker and 80s-era Sarah Vaughan. The last time I did a double take on the strength of a vocalist's voice was when June Tabor sang an Elvis Costello song and Urszula Dudziak did a jazz vocalese of "Papaya". Joseph (realized that Dinah Washington was also born in April along with Billie Holiday, Carmen McRae and Ella Fitzgerald ) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:18:39 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) Bob wrote: > I mention LA because she does: > "I couldn't let go of LA, city of the fallen angels"...it seems like she > begins and ends there but it could've been anywhere really. I never thought of C&S as a pre-Hejira road trip, although she does refer to a number of locations in the album. She does seem to be getting around in it - the Empire Hotel in Canada and the rocks and cactuses going by on the train. Free Man in Paris was written about David Geffen's experience, but I'm sure she closely related to the sentiment in that song. The song Court & Spark itself has always intrigued me. I still want to know who this mysterious man is in that song. I've wondered if the reference to burying the coins he made in People's Park (which I think is/was in Berkeley - my 60s memories escape me right now) is literal or figurative. Has he given up his gold (or materialism) to look for a woman to court and spark (and truly love) or is he really looking for a woman to join him in his own journey of self-knowledge? He seems to somehow reassure her yet also proselytizes to her about how he has cleared himself from all the guilty people who have all seen the stain on their daily bread and Christian names. He says he can complete her but is that offer really just a guise for completing himself? He reaches her and she is very tempted but she can't let go of L.A. (literally and figuratively). I think her "City of the fallen angels" lyric is used with an ironic and double meaning here. He almost has her convinced that he can redeem her in some way, whether through his love, his philosophy, or his own brand of holiness, but she ultimately decides to not accept his proposition and therefore, symbolically, becomes the "fallen angel" in the scenario. But maybe there is no actual man involved - maybe this character is just used to express the concept of the push-pull of love and lifestyle change vs. independence and status quo in lifestyle, or maybe it's a conflict between following some new religion, spiritual path or guru or staying her own path. I always assumed Trouble Child was written about her own experience, but read somewhere, either here on the list, or maybe in his autobiography, that it was written about Crosby. Or maybe Croz is just "tailgating her" again ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #170 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. 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