From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #169 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, April 19 1999 Volume 04 : Number 169 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Hejira - Court & Spark ["Kakki" ] Re: Therapy? [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Therapy? [catman ] NJC Re: Against Therapy - not much Joni content [catman ] Re: Barry Manilow, fingernails, Both Sides Now [M.Russell@iaea.org] first time [Robert Holliston ] Re: Against Therapy - not much Joni content [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Against Therapy [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: First time--Joni addict--Pusher [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] To Alan; NJC [Vince Lavieri ] RE: Re: feminism (njc) [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Hedge and Donna (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Fun finds [Suzanne Simpson ] Re: Fun finds ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ] Re: first time... [philipf@tinet.ie] L. Fisher book: Joni Mitchell: Her Life. . . [SMEBD@aol.com] RE: Therapy? (NJC) [Mary Pitassi ] Today in Joni History - April 20 [Today in Joni History ] Joni's HDCDs [LucasBC@webtv.net (Luke Bierlein)] Re: Against Therapy NJC [dsk ] Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.co] Painting with words... ["paul tyrer" ] Re: Therapy? NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Hejira - less than perfect [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Hejira - less than perfect [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Leno, Letterman, & JONI [simon@icu.com] The First Time [simon@icu.com] Re: Painting with words... [catman ] like washing on a line NJC [catman ] 'Comes Love' (aka?: Nothing Can Be Done) [simon@icu.com] Man From Mars & Joni's MISC. album appearances [simon@icu.com] Re: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) ["Kakki" Subject: Re: Hejira - Court & Spark Mark wrote regarding Hejira: >I count 'Black Crow' and 'Blue Motel Room' as exceptions. 'Black Crow' is so restless and > invigorating that it could never be boring and 'Blue Motel Room' has a definite bridge that > goes a long way toward putting some musical variety into the song. > much more melodic and musically interesting than 'Hejira'. At the risk of being pummeled ;-D I have to say that those were also the two songs I liked the most on Hejira in my early listening days for the exact reasons Mark states. > And just to be all the more irritating, I've always thought of 'For > the Roses' as the preliminary sketch for 'Court and Spark'. I thought of them as related on several levels as far as Joni's growth. I thought of For The Roses as exorcizing the demons and then Joni seemed to become more free somehow and that was reflected in her music on C&S in both the upbeat, poppy songs like Help Me, Free Man in Paris, Raised on Robbery and the more straight out, "tell it like it is" songs like People's Parties, Down to You and Trouble Child. Even Twisted, is just so out with it - "I'm crazy but I'm a genius" - it's like she finally accepts that she has her struggles, but has learned to laugh a little at them now and not take it all too seriously. I always looked at this period as her starting to go into a a kind of chrysalis at the time of FTR and then emerging as a new spirit in many ways with C&S. There seemed to be so much psychic freedom coming through on it and I think the transformation blossomed and grew even more with HOSL. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 05:14:29 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Therapy? In a message dated 19/04/99 00:07:07, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << All of which goes to prove the corrollary to Bob M. theory -- that most people who become psychotherapists do so in an effort to cure their own problems, which in most cases are worse than those of the patients they supposedly treat. I've no doubt that each of us would get much better in a 50-minute "Hejira" session with DR. Joni Mitchell, even if if co-session with Dr. Sid Mondegreen, than we would in a similar session with Azeem's future colleagues. >> It proves nothing of the sort Paul. Gross generalisations are not the truth. Yes, I accept that some people become therapists to sort out their own problems; however, it is also true that you need to have sorted out your own shit in order to be able to provide any sort of objective help to someone else trying to work through their own process. If I had decided to become a therapist without having done any work on myself beforehand, I would not be helping anyone - and indeed the organisation with which I'm training would not have accepted me on the course. I really resent the tone of your comments, the slur on the people with whom I'm studying, and I could take umbrage with the implied slur on me, but I'll let it lie. It's your stuff, after all. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:40:46 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Therapy? I was thinking recently that i hadn't seen anything from Paul for a while. Now here he is and on top form and obviously has not lost his way with words. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:40:52 +0100 From: catman Subject: NJC Re: Against Therapy - not much Joni content I agree with most of what you wrote. I too have known, and still do, people who are seeing a therapist who is not helping and who actually 'diagnose' their clients. My own experience was with a client centred T. It was the best thing I ever had happen to me. I no longer see him. It worked for me. Unfortunately, he took many years to find. I had seen some real plonkers in the past. Alice Miller , an ex psychoanylist who was well respected in her field, has written some excellent books on ananylis and how it perpetuates abuse and power structures. Well worth reading. The Drama Of Being A Child is one of them. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:40:56 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: cocaine I can't even think of which song this refers to-unless it is the one of hejira, the title of which eludes me right now. Randy Remote wrote: > Gene Mock wrote: > > > chestnut "Cocaine (run all 'round my brain')" until my friend pointed out > > that that particular song was written by this Joni Mitchell. > > > > I always thought Jackson Browne wrote that particular song. I hope this > > doesn't put me in the JM Police Force. Take care you all gene > > I thought it was a Barry Manalow tune!? > RR - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:42:27 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Barry Manilow, fingernails, Both Sides Now On Sun, 18 Apr 1999 05:53:48 EDT CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: > ...had a question for all the guitarist's in the group. > What are your fingernails like? Mine are really short on the left hand and long on the right. > I keep mine very > short, but noticed Joni's are long, as are most > women's. Are the ones on her left hand shorter > so she can press down on the frets? Does she > leave the ones on right hand longer so she can > pluck the strings ? Joni's right hand fingernails are long. When I saw her, her fingernails were painted with a silvery grey color. I didn't look to see if her left hand nails were shorter, but it's really hard to play the chord shapes if your left hand fingernails are too long, so I think Joni's must, out of necessity, be a little shorter than those on her right hand. I can play songs with short fingernails on my right hand, but I think it sounds a lot better when they're longer - I get more of a ringing sound. What about fingerpicks? I know Mark D. uses them. Do people use them because of not wanting to have long fingernails? I've never been able to get used to them - or even a flatpick for that matter. > One thing I wanted to share was that I > have always been frustrated that I could > not get the same rich sound that Joni > does when she plays -- how does she > strike all those strings at the same time, > and isolate others to compliment the melody? Joni's fingerpicking style has always been very difficult to duplicate and her more recent rhythmic playing is even harder to figure out. She seems to have her own rhythmic sense when picking and striking the strings that isn't exactly symmetrical from measure to measure (which is very different from the way most people play guitar). She often plays around with the order of the notes in a chord pattern. So it's hard to play something exactly like she does. It would be interesting to plug her guitar playing into a music program that prints out the notes so that you could really study what's actually going on. Both Sides Now was the first Joni song I ever heard. I fell in love with the song after hearing Judy Collins sing it and half a year later learned that it was Joni who had written it. Clouds was my first Joni album and BSN was the first Joni song I ever learned on guitar. I don't like the music of Barry Manilow or the Carpenters very much. It's nice to hear that Barry is a Joni fan, though. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 03:15:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: first time Like many other listers, my first exposure to Joni's songs was courtesy of other artists (Judy Collins with Both Sides Now and Michael From Mountains/Buffy Sainte-Marie with The Circle Game). I have to admit that when I first heard Joni's own versions of these songs, they seemed a bit austere, especially after Judy's (imho) over-produced arrangements. My dad always asked me what album I wanted him to give me for my birthday, so that was the year I asked for Ladies of the Canyon, which is still a favourite. This would be the fall of 1970 (in the fall of 1971 I discovered Laura Nyro's Christmas and the Beads of Sweat). A few years later I was lucky enough to attend the Shadows and Light tour when it hit Vancouver. In less than a decade she had gone through more stylistic changes (again, imho) than any popular artist before or since, with the possible exception of The Beatles. (And the definite exception of Miles Davis.) I'm still trying to understand most of her '80s work, but that's my problem, not hers. NRH and TTT have many of my favourite Joni songs ever, and to me, Turbulent Indigo is one of her masterpieces. Well, I'm rambling! Best wishes to all, Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:49:47 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Against Therapy - not much Joni content In a message dated 4/19/99 12:31:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CarltonCT@aol.com writes: << Someone who is still in therapy after years really would be better off learning to play an instrument, pick up a paint brush, spike a volleyball, learn to make a Sacher torte. Works for me. >> Herrs Carlton und Paul, Ees too bad you haf bad experience mit dos bat terapists. Vy you or your mama not svitch to somevon mit a goot hantle on tings? You who hate ze psychiatry, shoot ask yourself, vy? I sink ze answer lies een how you got along mit your papa. No? Tink about it. Mine collegues, may de rest in peace, ver no mashuganas. Dey do goot vork mit the neurotics. So I ask you, vy you no see a terapist for dis Joni addiction? All dis talk about holiness now? I shuut spit tree times on de bote uf you. Feh. Dr. SigMondegreen (unt NOT Sid, Mr. Paul) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:54:30 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Against Therapy CarltonCT (It's Clark, right?) wrote: <> As I write this I'm hearing Joni sing "It all comes down to you..." Thanks for adding the flesh to the bones of my earlier comment - again, I don't mean to say that therapy is some kind of scam or that therapists aren't ethical or professional or NEEDED, only that like many medical types, some prey on our paranoia to pad their client list - they have to "sell" just like anyone else...if you need any further examples, take your kid (or yourself for that matter) to the orthodontist and ask them if they would recommend anything. I'll bet you a Gold Blue CD that they'll gladly show you how they can benefit you and/or your child by wiring you up with something - my old man spent $20,000 getting an orthodontist to crack his jaw, yank some teeth, move his jawline, wire his mouth shut for six months..."Pop, you're blowing my inheritance, man!" :~D And he said if he had it to do all over again, he wouldn't. And from the Goddess: "They open and close you, they talk like they know you...they don't know you.." "My analyst told me that I was right out of my head, but I said dear doctor I think that it's you instead..." (And I KNOW the song is actually by Ross/Grey) "Doctor's pills give you brand new ills, and the bills bury you like an avalanche..." Bob NP: Trouble Child ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:00:12 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: First time--Joni addict--Pusher Penny confesses: <> Penny, this was really great fun to read - funny how we can be so devious getting people exposed to Joni... And I think your intro should be a required statement for all newbies!! :~) Except that it's not an addiction we're trying to get rid of... Bob NP: Help Me (which also played frequently on WSHS, our High School radio station... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:47:40 -0400 From: Vince Lavieri Subject: To Alan; NJC Alan, If I misquoted and/or misunderstood what you said, I apologize, and I thank you for the correction! As for me coming in swinging, I suppose, that's my nature... (the Rev) Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:19:41 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: Re: feminism (njc) Gina wrote: <<>> It was a great, great post, and the truth is that feminism as an idea has taken on a life distinct from that of feminism the historical movement. Let me take this opportunity to recommend (again!) Susan Faludi's EXCELLENT book, _Backlash_. It is a thoroughly documented and almost impeccably argued text about the conservative backlash against women's equality during the '80s and early '90s. It's particularly relevant to this thread because Faludi addresses both of the distortions of feminism raised by Gina. It is a direct attack on the revisionist strategies of the right, but what is particularly fascinating is that she argues against these strategies by talking about their effects on a broad, broad range of women. Most heartbreaking is a story she relates about blue-collar women fighting for job opportunities in factory towns. They endured severe on-the-job persecution and even got hysterectomies so they would be allowed to work with chemicals (a job which pays better) only to lose their jobs anyway. I can't recommend _Backlash_ highly enough. It even gets name-checked on Bryan Thomas's wonderful album (my paean to which I will resurrect and resend soon.) - --Michael P.S. A small request--many of us have to read our mail at work, so could folks try to be careful to keep swear words out of the subject line? Thanks a million!! NP: My Bloody Valentine, _Loveless_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:11:41 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Hedge and Donna (NJC) The Rev wrote: >I have a non-Joni question, however. In the late 60s there was a duo >called Hedge and Donna. Hello, Vince, and welcome! I can't help you out with the H & D albums, but they did a memorable show at a peace rally at my school, Pasadena City College, right after the Kent State shootings in '70. I have some good photos from the event. They were certainly a dynamic duo. Does anyone know what became of them? ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:24:42 -0500 From: Suzanne Simpson Subject: Fun finds Just in my local record store, I ran across some JM imports this weekend: "Canada 1994" (live, including wonderful version of "Hejira"), "By the Banks of the River Charles" (recorded in Cambridge, MA, in 1968, in which JM mentions she'll finally be making a record, and containing a lyrically different "Conversation," as well as "Vali" and "Gift of the Magi"), and "Fret Sets" or some such (two disks, from 1966-1968 performances). I haven't had time to listen to the last yet, though I really love live recordings of early JM. I think the ready availability of these imports testifies to the great resurgence of interest in JM. I need to check out web sites that import, too, because I love these so much! JM's description of her interest in Vali makes me wonder what-ever-happened-to Vali? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:53:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Re: Fun finds These really aren't imports. Imports is a polite term for bootlegs. All have been available over the years in many name changes. Canada 1994 is probably the previously named Just Ice boot. All are contained in the tape trees from the original taped recordings. Jerry On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Suzanne Simpson wrote: > Just in my local record store, I ran across some JM imports this > weekend: "Canada 1994" (live, including wonderful version of "Hejira"), > "By the Banks of the River Charles" (recorded in Cambridge, MA, in 1968, > in which JM mentions she'll finally be making a record, and containing a > lyrically different "Conversation," as well as "Vali" and "Gift of the > Magi"), and "Fret Sets" or some such (two disks, from 1966-1968 > performances). I haven't had time to listen to the last yet, though I > really love live recordings of early JM. I think the ready availability > of these imports testifies to the great resurgence of interest in JM. I > need to check out web sites that import, too, because I love these so > much! JM's description of her interest in Vali makes me wonder > what-ever-happened-to Vali? > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:32:59 +0100 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: first time... The first time I heard a Joni Mitchell tune was when The Johnstons sang Both Sides Now on the Simon Dee show on BBC tv sometime in the sixties. The Johnstons were a wholesome folk group along the lines of The Seekers. I didn't really like the song then, I recall thinking that it was an anti war song. Later Judy Collins had a hit with a much improved version. My sister and I got the sheet music, probably because we couldn't afford to get the record. Then I bought Clouds because I liked the cover and was curious to hear what Joni Mitchell sounded like. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:38:56 EDT From: SMEBD@aol.com Subject: L. Fisher book: Joni Mitchell: Her Life. . . I'm pretty new to the list and have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts etc. I recall that someone mentioned the book about Joni by L. Fisher (Joni Mitchell: Her Life, Loves and Music) that was published in the mid-70's. I noticed that there is a copy on E-Bay (www.ebay.com) for auction. The auction ends on 04/21 and the price at this time (04/19--1:30 EDT) is $5. I bought the book when it came out and it has some wonderful photos. Thought someone might be interested--I think someone was asking if it was still around. Hope this helps. Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:24:13 -0500 From: Mary Pitassi Subject: RE: Therapy? (NJC) Paul wrote: "All of which goes to prove the corrollary to Bob M. theory -- that most people who become psychotherapists do so in an effort to cure their own problems, which in most cases are worse than those of the patients they supposedly treat." Paul, "Most" people who become psychotherapists? What evidence is this statement based on? I'm sure we've all heard horror stories resulting from experiences in which this seems to have been the case, but my guess would be that they're the exception, rather than the rule. However, to the extent that your statement is true, I'd further guess that many who become therapists have the "emotional intelligence" (alluded to by Gina) to form an awareness of their own problems in the first place with more intensity and depth than "average" folks. In other words, the same characteristic that makes these individuals know that they have difficulties and desire to to resolve them makes them eager and able to assist others in doing the same. Mary P. P.S. Best of luck to you, Azeem, in your studies and your new career. Both sound challenging and rewarding! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:40:00 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - April 20 1969: Today the New York Times publishes an article on Joni, saying (in one sentence) "Joni Mitchell lives in Laurel Canyon, in a small pine-paneled house lovingly cluttered with two cats, a stuffed elk's head, stained glass windows, a grandfather clock given her by Leonard Cohen, a king's head with a jeweled crown sticking out from the brick fireplace, votive candles, blooming azaleas, a turkey made of pine cones, dried flowers, old dolls, Victorian shadow boxes, colored glass, an ornamental plate from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, where she grew up, an art nouveau lamp in the shape of a frog holding a lily pad, a collection of cloisonne boxes, bowls and ashtrays, patchwork quilts, Maxfield Parrish pictures, various musical instruments, and Joni Mitchell and Graham Nash. Read the article at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/a690420.htm - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:56:49 -0700 (PDT) From: LucasBC@webtv.net (Luke Bierlein) Subject: Joni's HDCDs Hey everyone! I know I haven't posted in a long time, but now I have a little something to discuss. Yesterday I was in the local Sam Goody and checking out the new repackaged HDCD copies they had of "Blue', "Court and Spark," "Ladies of the Canyon," and "Miles of Aisles." I ran into a LOT of confusion though. I wanted "Blue" on HDCD, but the packaging all looked the same except for a little HDCD symbol in the bottom right-hand corner of the back. I bought it anyway, got to my car and unwrapped it and slipped the cd out without breaking the seal, and it was the same "Blue" cd I had at home with no HDCD logo on it. I took it back to the store and explained it and they said I coud exchange it, so I had to try and decide which to get. I wanted "Ladies of the Canyon", but although the packaging was obviously different, there was no HDCD symbol on the packaging that I could see (except the stickers on the front). I didn't want to get another old cd in front of the story lady, so I got "Court and Spark" which had HDCD in large letters on the back. She opened it so that we could check it out and itwas the HDCD copy. Only thing is that I haven't noticed a huge difference in sound. Have you guys? I had the HDCD copy of "For the Roses" without knowing it (I was just lucky that Borders sent me that one when I ordered it) and was sort of wondering all along why it sounded so good until I discovered it was HDCD. But "Court and Spark" just doesn't sound that different to me. I really want "Song to a Seagull" and "Blue" on HDCD, but I'll have to keep looking. And I still don't have anything between "Court and Spark" and "Dog Eat Dog" (noone hit me for not having "Hejira" yet!), but I hope to change that soon enough. Anyone been going to the Natalie Merchant shows? I went to Portland and Seattle and met her both times---really nice! Talk to you all later. Luke ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:29:07 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Against Therapy NJC CarltonCT@aol.com wrote: > > ...short term, and that's what I think most encounters with a therapist ought to > be. Yes, if that is what most benefits the patient. But therapy's not just learning a set of new rules to follow. There are thousands of how-to books that a person can read if that's all one needs. (And why are there thousands? If such books are effective, why don't people just read one or two and instantly change? If people could do that, there would be no need for any type of formal therapy.) There's a trend now that short-term therapy is better, which is fueled mostly by insurance companies that will pay for only that. Sometimes short-term therapy is exactly what a person needs. But sometimes it's not. > There are some fascinating books critical of therapy... I'm sure they are fascinating. Sensationalism always is. It would take an unusually perceptive writer to make "successful" therapy as interesting to read about as the relatively few (in my opinion) cases that have harmed the patient. This is one of those discussions where people come at it from very different perspectives, and it's unwise to make one example a general statement. It's a very imperfect profession, with lots of different possible scenarios. I definitely agree that it's all up to the person to be responsible for herself or himself. It just shows a lack of understanding to think that a therapist can in any way take that responsibility away from a person. And why does anyone think it's an either/or matter: treatment with a therapist versus listening to music, painting, whatever? Both can be helpful. But to slap down therapy and therapists because these other activities are available just seems ignorant to me. If you've never needed formal therapy, consider yourself very, very lucky. I know from personal family experience that people can end up dead, or living an emotionally dead life, rather than seek outside help because they are ruled by some of the cliches I've read on this list. My own experience, as I've said before, was a life-saver. So from my limited viewpoint, most therapists are compassionate healers that are trying to do good, and it can be a tragedy if people suffer rather than seek their help. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:10:04 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) Like I said, Mark inspired me to pick up C&S and listen & think and listen some more...and post! It's just so cool knowing that I can express my thoughts about Joni's work and know that kindred Joni spirits are going to pick up on it - I hope I never get over that feeling...anyway- I think maybe one of the reasons we gravitate toward the other records over this one IS it's popularity; after all, it's much more fun to have a secret (like one her other records that didn't generate the radio airplay). But C&S is certainly no worse for its popularity. It's as brilliant in places as anything she's done. Looking at the sequencing, the whole record seems to tell a story and revisit some common themes. Joni is happy but incomplete in LA, love shows up, thinking for sure he was seen dancing up the same river Joni was wishing for on "River", he was seen playing real good for free, and now, here he is, and the more he talks, the more he reaches her until... "Help me, I think I'm falling in love again", afraid of falling too fast but realizing just how good it feels, we love our lovin', but what about the freedom, the LA music scene, the ability to be Free in Paris, to wander down the Champs Elysees, cafe to cabaret, of course stoking the star maker machinery behind the popular song also means attending the dreadful People's Parties, with all the oddball personalities and their dysfunctional behaviors, she sees how phony it is and realizes that where she WANTS to be is with the person she's fallen in love with, even though she asks "When you said you loved me, Do you think this can be real...?" She's caught between the struggle for higher achievement (career) and her search for love...of course, Joni being Joni, we know which choice she's going to make. And it's righteous from the start, laughter and sweetness in the dark, we don't know how long the "Car On A Hill" rolls on, but eventually it changes from climbing the hill, to the point where "things that you held high and told yourself were true (are) lost and changing...", and when she sees true lovers on the street, she realizes that "love is gone"...so it's time for a Hejira, back to the west coast on the train, where nothing is right because of the loss of love. Kids, old men, women with their damn teased up hair, they're all aggravating because she tells herself "What are you going to do now, you've got no one to give your love to...". Along the trip she amuses herself with a stop in the lounge where she watches a worn-out world weary woman try to put the moves on a guy at the bar, "Hey where you going, don't go yet", she hears the lady call out and she wonders to herself if this is what SHE'S going to turn into, some floozy in a hotel bar looking for one-night stands, jealous lovin' will make you crazy, is she in fact crazy? So now she's back in LA in the jetset, up in a sterilized room, being lazy on some psychiatrist's couch, wondering exactly why she "can't live life and she can't leave it"...but she realizes that no matter how much the shrinks and friends and everybody try to help her, she really has no one, and finally, her head clearing, declares that she's not Twisted at all, she's just a genius, why doesn't everybody else see it as well? How could she be so foolish, laughter and crying are the same release, right? So the time has come to "laugh it all away" and move on, at least until love sucks her back that way... I got lots more I want to say about C&S but I'll stop for now... Bob NP: Twisted ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:45:34 +0100 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: Painting with words... Aggh. It kills me to post this, because I know how much this concert(s) meant to some of you listers but... I have to confess that I have taken my copy of Painting with Words and Music back to the shop. I have every Joni LP, plus most again on cd, and with the exception of Miles and Aisles (which still has good tracks), WTRF (which has the almost redeeming it's so fantastic Chinese Cafe) and the Refuge of the Roads video (aggh! again) have loved every moment. But I hated PwWaM. The backing sound was way too polite, I thought. The songs didn't fit together very well (I found the set gloomy). And worst of all, Joni, my darling favouritist Joni, has lost her voice... and her eloquence... I am just hugely disappointed. Anyone else feel the same? PX ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:55:34 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Therapy? NJC In a message dated 4/18/1999 4:53:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ginamu@aol.com writes: << Show me someone who has been able to recover from serious life problems get better from listening to Hejira and I'll show you someone who looks younger from listening to Facelift. Good music, supportive family and friends, things like that help to heal us - yes - they do help. But a cure? How myopic! Gina >> I want to jump in here. There are bad therapists, good therapists, and excellent therapists, just like everything else here on this earth. People who go to therapy need to realize as well that just by going will do nothing unless you truly want to help yourself and you listen to the advice of your therapist. My son has been in therapy and so have I. We have both had some crappy therapist who do NOTHING at all and then there are the great ones who give great advice and also allow you to figure things out for yourself. It is ashame that there are not so good therapists...it gives the great ones a bad name. Catgirl.....NP:Toledo-Costello /Bacharach ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:05:18 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira - less than perfect In a message dated 4/18/1999 7:21:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mark-n-travis@worldnet.att.net writes: << Pat Metheny > made me fall in love with him too. He is one of the best guitarist ever in > my opinion. Not to pick nits or pick on Catgirl, but...Pat Metheny doesn't play on Hejira. He does play on the live 'Shadows & Light' album and adds >> Funny you should say that!!!! I was listening to the album like I said I was gonna do. I was being mesmerized at the wonderful slide guitar on the Amelia. As I was reading the liner notes it dawned on me that it was Larry Carlton. I knew it was Larry but kinda forgot:::blushing:::: Which is something Iwanted to bring up regarding Hejira....Larry makes that song and other shine....As I listened to all of the sounds each one plays such an integral part of the whole. Without one , the whole would sound so different. Because he played on that album I bought some of his stuff. My favorite being "Alone but never alone" a great album by Larry Carlton! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:08:22 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira - less than perfect In a message dated 4/18/1999 7:21:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mark-n-travis@worldnet.att.net writes: << That if you want to be a true fan you have to worship Hejira as the greatest record of all time. I am a Joniphile. I do not feel that way about 'Hejira'. And I also think it's selling Joni's recent work short to constantly compare it to a record she made 20 some years ago. It was an eloquent statement of where she was at then. She has matured both personally and artistically a great deal since then. I think the best is yet to come. Mark in Seattle, one bull-headed Taurean >> All I can say is that Hejira is my favorite album. I do love Turbulent Indigo though. But if I was stuck on a deserted album with only one album it would be Hejira..and when I die I want Amelia played at my wake! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:50:51 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Leno, Letterman, & JONI CaTGirl627@aol.com, writes ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >In a message dated 4/18/1999 2:00:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >mark-n-travis@worldnet.att.net writes: > >>PS: I know Jay is not stupid because if he was Joni would have never >> appeared on his show. >> >>As I recall Jay made some comment about 'every girl I knew in college' >>had a copy of 'Court & Spark' or something like that. I don't think >>Joni was particularly flattered or amused. Give me Letterman any day >>of the week. > >>Mark in Seattle > > >I agree and I do believe that she has been on Letterman more then Leno. >She also looked and sounded alot better on Letterman then Leno. Must be >the energy. She also seemed more relaxed and happy on Lettermen then on >Leno. > >Catgirl >__________________________________________________________________________ FWIW: actually she's been on both programs twice, as i recall. Tonight Show: feb. 3, 1995 dec. 12, 1995 Letterman: april 24, 1995 nov. 4, 1996 unlike the Letterman appearances, Joni brought along Brian Blade for the 2nd Tonight Show appearance *and* performed a new song 'Love Puts On A New Face' for the very 1st time. Brian Blade was also along for 'CBS This Morning', broadcast 1-3-96. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:50:19 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: The First Time Lisa Kowalski writes ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >I first saw Joni on a TV program in 1968 (I can't remember the name of >the program). It was a televised concert from Mississippi or Tenessee? >with a very small intimate audience. It was in the middle of the summer >and I don't think the place was air conditioned and there was Joni looking >quite uncomfortable in a long velvet dress (she loves that velvet!). >Even though she looked very hot and nervous she sang and played >beautifully. I was a mesmerized 16 yr old who could not take her eyes >off the TV set. > >Lisa >__________________________________________________________________________ Lisa, the music from this program was made available to JMDL members as part of TapeTree #5 (Tape 1-of-2). JONI MITCHELL PBS-TV nov. 30, 1969 (broadcast date) 1. Chelsea Morning 2. Cactus Tree 3. Night In The City 4. Marcie 5. Nathan La Franeer 6. Rainy Night House 7. Blue Boy 8. For Free 9. Get Together 10. The Fiddle And The Drum 11. I Think I Understand 12. Both Sides, Now Unfortunately, it's was also Bootleged on LP as, "Lennie and Dom Songs (Early On)". as is *always* the case, the 'source' recording used for the JMDL TapeTree was clearly superior to the Bootlegger$ rip-off product. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- PS: Coming Soon ~ TapeTree #8 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:29:42 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Painting with words... Paul-John and I sat and watched PWWAM in silence. With John not being a fan, I was embarrassed by it. I agree with you-it was awful and I do think she has lost her voice. It is amazing what one can do in a studio to get the sound so good on a cd. So many people sound dreadful live and I am afraid this counts as one. paul tyrer wrote: > Aggh. > > It kills me to post this, because I know how much this concert(s) meant to > some of you listers but... I have to confess that I have taken my copy of > Painting with Words and Music back to the shop. > > I have every Joni LP, plus most again on cd, and with the exception of Miles > and Aisles (which still has good tracks), WTRF (which has the almost > redeeming it's so fantastic Chinese Cafe) and the Refuge of the Roads video > (aggh! again) have loved every moment. But I hated PwWaM. > > The backing sound was way too polite, I thought. The songs didn't fit > together very well (I found the set gloomy). And worst of all, Joni, my > darling favouritist Joni, has lost her voice... and her eloquence... > > I am just hugely disappointed. Anyone else feel the same? > PX - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:38:44 +0100 From: catman Subject: like washing on a line NJC Okay, so I am really sad, but what a thrill it was to do laundry and hang it OUTSIDE in the garden on a real washing line! bw colin - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:22:16 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: 'Comes Love' (aka?: Nothing Can Be Done) Bob Muller writes ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >From: Nicholas Bates > >>Also how much of 'Nothing Can Be Done' on 'Painting ... is Billie Holiday >>and how much is Joni and Larry? Sounds great anyway but I just wondering >>if there were major changes to the original?>> > >Actually, there *is* a recording of Holiday's version of "Comes Love" on >one of the #7 Tape Trees. Joni's arrangement is pretty much the same, it >just has her gorgeous vocals wrapped around it... > >Bob >__________________________________________________________________________ correct. i included several *unlisted* Bonus Tracks on TapeTree #7, they are: BILLIE HOLIDAY Comes Love The SONS OF THE PIONEERS My Best To You (1-27-47) Cool Water (8-8-45) TapeTree #7 also included Excerpt from: MORNING BECOMES ECLECTIC ~ KCRW-FM w/Larry Klein & Allison Anders ~ sept. 1996 RE: "Man From Mars" this program included some interesting insights into how this song came about, why it wasn't included in the movie "Grace Of My Heart" as well as some tongue-in-cheek comments from Larry making it clear that the inclusion of Joni's version on the sountrack album was probably *not* a mistake, as reported. although "Man From Mars" was played during this program, i also included it from the soundtrack CD because it just sounds so much better without all that FM compression. most JMDL members first heard the 'original' version of "Man From Mars" when it was included (but not listed) on TapeTree #2. i likes my little surprises. BTW: the Joni Mitchell song "Nothing Can Be Done" doesn't appear on the recently released "Painting With Words Music" video. this is a mistake. the song Joni actually performs is the aforementioned "Comes Love". i'm sure many of you have noticed, they also list "Harry's House" as "Harry's HOME", and spelled Magdalene incorrectly. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- PS: Coming Soon ~ TapeTree #8 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:24:11 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Man From Mars & Joni's MISC. album appearances "Man From Mars" is one of a number of Vocal Appearances that Joni Mitchell has made over the years on albums other than her own. here's the updated list. hopefully we'll be able to Tree all this material sometime later this year. it involves quite a bit of work, but the results will be worth it. all recordings are on-hand, good thing too since many of them are out-of-print and difficult to obtain. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- JONI MITCHELL ~ Misc. Recordings ___________________________________________________________________________ 1969 THE 1969 WARNER-REPRISE RECORD SHOW Reprise #PRO-336 (released 1970) My American Skirt (0:40 spoken song intro) Spoony's Wonderful Adventure (0:40 spoken song intro) recorded at Carnegie Hall: feb. 1, 1969 1970 MESSAGE TO LOVE: THE ISLE OF WIGHT FESTIVAL - 1970 Essential CD #EDF CD 327 (UK) Big Yellow Taxi Woodstock festival dates: august 26-30, 1970 (released on video) 1971 JAMES TAYLOR: "MUD SLIDE SLIM & THE BLUE HORIZON" Warner Bros. #2561-2 Love Has Brought Me Around You've Got A Friend Long Ago And Far Away recorded & mixed: jan. 3 thru feb. 28, 1971 CAROL KING: "TAPESTRY" Ode #EK-34946 Will You Love Me Tomorrow The MITCHELL-TAYLOR Boy and Girl Choir DAVID CROSBY: "IF I COULD ONLY REMEMBER MY NAME" Atlantic #7203-2 Laughing What Are Their Names recorded & mixed: nov. 1970 thru spring 1971 SEEMON & MARIJKE: "SON OF AMERICA" A&M #SP 4309 Vegetable Stew 1972 Eric Anderson: "BLUE RIVER" Columbia #CK-31062 Blue River JIMMY WEBB: "LETTERS" Reprise #MS 2055 Simile 1973 GRAHAM NASH: "WILD TALES" Atlantic #7288-2 Another Sleep Song back cover drawing: Joni Mitchell JACKSON BROWNE: "FOR EVERYMAN" Asylum #SD 5067-2 Sing My Songs To Me (electric piano only) ROD TAYLOR: "SELF-TITLED" Asylum #SD 5062 Making A Way Something Old 1974 PAUL HORN: "VISIONS" Epic #KE 32837 Blue (vocal & piano) TOM SCOTT & THE L.A. EXPRESS: "TOM CAT" Ode #EK 64960 Love Poem JIMMY WEBB: "LANDS END" Asylum #SD 5070 Feet In The Sunshine JOAN BAEZ: "GRACIAS A LA VIDA" A&M #828 393 614-2 Dida 1975 David Blue: "COM'N BACK FOR MORE" Asylum #7E 1043 Lover, Lover, Lover Eric Anderson: "BE TRUE TO YOU" Arista #AL 4033 Liza, Light The Candle Woman, She Was Gentle Can't Get You Out Of My Life The Blues Keep Fallin' Like The Rain Love Is Just A Game JOAN BAEZ: "DIAMONDS & RUST" A&M #CD 3233 Dida 1976 L.A. EXPRESS: "SHADOW PLAY" Caribou Records #34355 Nordic Winds front cover painting: Joni Mitchell THE BAND: "THE LAST WALTZ" Warner Bros. #3146-2 Helpless (Neil Young w/Joni) Coyote I Shall Be Released (backup vocal) recorded, november 25, 1976 (released on video) 1981 DAN FOGELBERG: "THE INNOCENT AGE" Full Moon/Epic #E2K 37393 Nexus (vocal descant) 1985 NORTHERN LIGHTS: "WE ARE THE WORLD" LP Polygram #824 822-2 Tears Are Not Enough recorded feb. 10, 1985 JAMES TAYLOR: "THAT'S WHY I'M HERE" Columbia #CK 40052 Only One 1986 DARYL HALL: "THREE HEARTS IN THE HAPPY ENDING MACHINE" RCA #PCD1-7196 Right As Rain 1989 VARIOUS ARTISTS: "EARTHRISE, The RAINFOREST ALBUM" Pyramid Records #R2-71830 Spirit Of The Forest (12" & CD Singles released by Virgin) INDIO: "BIG HARVEST" A&M #CD 5257 Big Harvest Hard Sun My Eyes 1990 DAVID BAERWALD: "BEDTIME STORIES" A&M Records #75021 5289-2 Liberty Lies ROGER WATERS: "THE WALL - LIVE IN BERLIN 1990" Mercury #846 611-2 Goodbye Blue Sky The Tide Is Turning recorded: july 21, 1990. (also released on video) 1992 SHAWN COLVIN: "FAT CITY" Columbia CD #CK 47122 Object Of My Affection (percussion, claps & a big laugh) 1994 SEAL: "SELF-TITLED" ZTT/Sire/Warner Bros. #9 45415-2 If I Could Rare On Air: Volume 2 Live Sessions From KRCW's 'Morning Becomes Eclectic' Mammoth Records #MR0107-2 Just Like This Train (recorded sept. 12, 1994) 1996 GRACE OF MY HEART: (SOUNDTRACK) MCA #MCAD-11510 Man From Mars unauthorized? release. withdrawn & replaced w/cover version 1997 JANET JACKSON: "THE VELVET ROPE (Featuring Q-Tip and Joni Mitchell) Virgin Records CD #7243-8-44762-2-9 Got 'Til It's Gone featuring samples from the Joni Mitchell recording "Big Yellow Taxi" 1998 KYLE EASTWOOD: "FROM THERE TO HERE" Columbia CD #68013 Trouble Man HERBIE HANCOCK: "GERSHWIN'S WORLD" Verve CD #VERCD-37 The Man I Love Summertime The CHIEFTAINS: "TEARS OF STONE" RCA #09026-68968-2 The Magdalene Laundries (released 1999) VARIOUS ARTISTS: "STORM WEATHER" (Benefit CD) A CONCERT FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE WALDEN WOODS PROJECT & THE THOREAU INSTITUTE PROMO RELEASE BY: A T & T Stormy Weather recorded april 16, 1998 (released 1999) _____________________________________________________________________________  ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:50:19 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Court & Spark as a song cycle (Long & Twisted) Bob, I really like your take on C&S but do you think of it primarily as an L.A.-tinged story? As self-appointed L.A. defender and booster here, I've always thought that her songs on C&S could be applicable to many peoples' experience, regardless of geographical location. I mean, there are people incomplete in love, dysfunctional and phony People's Parties, oppressive music scenes and the jaded jetset element everywhere. But maybe I'm just too much of a mutated native to discern the difference at this point ;-). Kakki > Looking at the sequencing, the whole record seems to tell a story and > revisit some common themes. Joni is happy but incomplete in LA, love > "Help me, I think I'm falling in love again", afraid of falling too > fast but realizing just how good it feels, we love our lovin', but > what about the freedom, the LA music scene, the ability to be Free in > Paris, to wander down the Champs Elysees, cafe to cabaret, of course > stoking the star maker machinery behind the popular song also means > attending the dreadful People's Parties, with all the oddball > personalities and their dysfunctional behaviors, she sees how phony it > is and realizes that where she WANTS to be is with the person she's > fallen in love So now she's back in LA in the jetset, up in a sterilized room, being > lazy on some psychiatrist's couch, wondering exactly why she "can't > live life and she can't leave it"... ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #169 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. 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