From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #168 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, April 19 1999 Volume 04 : Number 168 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The First Time [FMYFL@aol.com] cocaine ["Gene Mock" ] Re: Therapy? NJC [dsk ] Airplane's Spence skips [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Red (SJC) ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: first time... ["P. Henry" ] A friendly reminder... [Les Irvin ] Re: cocaine [Randy Remote ] Re: first time... [dsk ] Re: Concert Extortion (NJC) [Joseph Palis ] Re: first time, part 2... ["P. Henry" ] Against Therapy - not much Joni content [CarltonCT@aol.com] Joni First Time [Michael Paz ] Why PC Talk Can't Work/Was NJC list ... er (NJC) [evian Subject: cocaine chestnut "Cocaine (run all 'round my brain')" until my friend pointed out that that particular song was written by this Joni Mitchell. I always thought Jackson Browne wrote that particular song. I hope this doesn't put me in the JM Police Force. Take care you all gene ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:46:50 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Therapy? NJC IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > >Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: > << My opinion is that "amateur therapy" is probably much more > effective than professional therapy. > >Azeen wrote: > I'm loving the course, learning a lot about people and about myself, and > can't wait until I'm in a position to go out there and make a difference by > helping others towards their own bottom line. > >Paul wrote: > All of which goes to prove the corrollary to Bob M. theory -- that most > people who become psychotherapists do so in an effort to cure their own > problems, which in most cases are worse than those of the patients they > supposedly treat. I say in disbelief: WHAT? It's YOUR biased simplistic conclusion maybe; I don't think your statement has anything to do with what Bob wrote and it's not at all what Azeem just wrote, unless you're jumping on the "learning a lot about people and about myself" comment. Most training programs for therapists require students to go through therapy themselves, so they can know what it's like to be a patient and at the same time learn about themselves, so they DON'T have the need to "cure their own problems" with future patients. Which is not to say every practitioner is perfectly healthy and that abuses never occur; they do, but I think it's very rare. > I've no doubt that each of us would get much better in a 50-minute > "Hejira" session with DR. Joni Mitchell, even if if co-session with Dr. Sid > Mondegreen, than we would in a similar session with Azeem's future colleagues. Paul, are you trying to be funny here? You're obviously not speaking from personal experience in your comparison of the two experiences, and it seems you've completely ignored what's been said by people who do have some first-hand experience. So, YOU might not have any doubt, but I KNOW that listening to Hejira is not the same as going through intensive, life-changing, sometimes gut-wrenching therapy. And it seems ridiculous to even have to say that. Haaarrruuummmppphhhhh! I'm off to get some therapeutic very very hot tea (although at the moment maybe iced tea would be more helpful).... Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 22:55:24 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Airplane's Spence skips Have a good flight to the next world, Skip. Skip Spence SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Skip Spence, an original member of the rock band Jefferson Airplane, died Friday of lung cancer at age 52. Spence's death came weeks before the release of ``More Oar,'' a CD tribute to Spence including songs by Beck, Robert Plant, Tom Waits and members of R.E.M. The recording was inspired by ``Oar,'' Spence's unique, folk-psychedelic solo album from 1969, which will soon be reissued. Spence had long battled schizophrenia and alcoholism. He had been on a ventilator since entering the hospital April 5. In 1965, Alexander Lee ``Skip'' Spence, born in Ontario, Canada, was set to audition as a guitar player for the band Quicksilver Messenger Service when another musician, Marty Balin, invited him to play drums in his new band, Jefferson Airplane. Spence had never played drums before but learned quickly; on ``Oar'' he plays every instrument. Spence left Jefferson Airplane in 1966 and became a founding member of Moby Grape. Later, he gave another San Francisco Bay area band, Pud, a new name -- the Doobie Brothers. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:07:51 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Red (SJC) Azeem wrote: <> Well I'm 1/16th Cherokee and was born in America so that makes me a Native American.... When I visited Cherokee, NC, back in the 80's I was amused to learn that the chief's name was Taylor (no relation that I know of). Personally I think the term Red Man / Red Woman is the most preferred. "Indian" is the least. Joni's explanation of her stage in Painting With Words & Music is SO profound! The Medicine Wheel indeed represents the Red race, the White race, the Black race and the Yellow race. It's been a tradition for thousands of years and according to the teaching it is only when one reaches the center of the Wheel, where all four colors come together, is one a complete human. & how! E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:20:35 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: first time... well, let me apologize in advance that this is a repost but since the yopic came up I figure it's worth a repost... this is the account of my first time to hear Joni Mitchell: you like stories? well here's one for ya: I started out at the tender age of 15 playing dylan, paxton and a lot of trad stuff every night in a small detroit area coffeehouse in 1964... did that for about a year or so and then our family moved "up the thumb" toward the port huron area... got my first "real" job washing dishes for a hotel restaurant which I soon traded in for a better job delivering appliances and furniture for a hardware store. the guy I worked with on the truck was named brian (Brian S. Moss bsmoss@advnet.net who has become a listmember since this was first posted)and was really into folk music too so we hit it off pretty good, considering he was 19 and I was 16... well, after working together almost a year one day he invited me to a party up near the college in port huron and so I rode along with him... when we got there, it turned out that this 'party' was actually a meeting of high school&college students who were determined to re-open a local coffeehouse (for the third time) called "The Cellar". (it was during it's prior incarnation that is was used as a meeting place for the SDS) as it turned out, though they desperately wanted their old coffehouse back, they really had no resources in the entertainment area and, I think at brian's prompting, they were hoping I'd be able to help them since I'd been a performer and, they thought, might know the ropes, so to speak... (and also perform myself) so what happened was that they ended up forming up a non-profit org. constitution that night and electing officers to run the thing and they elected me, a barely 17 yr old kid, to act as the entertainment mgr! (now, hang in there... all this is background leading up to what ! I really wanted to tell you about...) so, while discussing with me their thoughts about performers, right away someone chimed "...and you have to get Chuck and Joni!" and someone else said "yeah! Chuck and Joni!" and, not having a clue who 'Chuck and Joni' were and feeling a bit intimidated and as I was, unaccustomed to being in a 'position', and elected, no less, of course my youthful pride reared up and I said: "well, I'm going to have to audition them first"! LoL!!!! ...still makes me laugh (& blush) when I think of it! can you imagine?!? *L* the real kicker, though, came when I finally did get them booked in to play for the weekend... and it was SRO! their routine was to do 3 sets... one each alone and one together... well, first Chuck played his set (and , in case you're wondering, he was good... really good! ballads mostly... a real pro performer! wow, there are SO many lyrics on the first album I could tell you stuff about!) and then, after the break, there she was mounting the stage with her martin... never before (or since) have I experienced such beauty as Joni live onstage... her voice was superb and her charm irresistable! I had to do the reostats for the colored lights... and, from the first song, I was floating! and between songs she talked and joked and flirted and laughed... (had to change the tunings, ya know...) and her laughter was like sunshine goin' right through ya! ...but when it really, really hit home... (the 'audition' thing?) was at the end of her set... "yesterday a child came out..." sing! along... circle game... and when she got to the chorus, the WHOLE PLACE joined in!!! and it was deafening... and it was like coming home..." *S* pat NP: Down To You http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:36:33 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: A friendly reminder... Joniphiles - It's time for another gentle reminder of a few list etiquette issues: 1) Always put "NJC" somewhere in the subject line if your post has no Joni content. The members who have switched to the onlyJoni options will appreciate it. 2) Watch to whom you have addressed your replies. A number of posts of late seem to be targeted to individuals, yet they are copied to the list as well. Try to avoid copying the list on personal replies. Thanks! Les ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:37:12 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: cocaine Gene Mock wrote: > chestnut "Cocaine (run all 'round my brain')" until my friend pointed out > that that particular song was written by this Joni Mitchell. > > I always thought Jackson Browne wrote that particular song. I hope this > doesn't put me in the JM Police Force. Take care you all gene I thought it was a Barry Manalow tune!? RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:58:23 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: first time... P. Henry wrote: > >...then, after the break, there she was mounting the stage with her >martin... never before (or since) have I experienced such beauty >as Joni live onstage... her voice was superb and her charm irresistable! >...the end of her set... "yesterday a child came out..." sing! >along... circle game... and when she got to the chorus, the WHOLE >PLACE joined in!!! and it was deafening... and it was like coming >home..." *S* Pat, this is a great story. Feels like I'm there. I can hear it now and am singing along with them (:-D) A little thing like 30+ years can never get in the way of Jonisong... Joni is forever. Thanks for reposting! DS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:34:16 +0800 (PST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: Concert Extortion (NJC) On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Jerry Notaro wrote: > > np: Andrea Bocelli- Romanza A fantastic album. Unbelievably beautiful. Bocelli is the tenor to watch. Joseph np: Time to Say Goodbye - Sarah Brightman and Andrea Bocelli ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:28:20 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: first time, part 2... apology #2... I don't know why the entire thing didn't go through... sorry... here's the rest: "...they were hoping I'd be able to help them since I'd been a performer and, they thought, might know the ropes, so to speak... (and also perform myself) so what happened was that they ended up forming up a non-profit org. constitution that night and electing officers to run the thing and they elected me, a barely 17 yr old kid, to act as the entertainment mgr! (now, hang in there... all this is background leading up to what ! I really wanted to tell you about...) so, while discussing with me their thoughts about performers, right away someone chimed "...and you have to get Chuck and Joni!" and someone else said "yeah! Chuck and Joni!" and, not having a clue who 'Chuck and Joni' were and feeling a bit intimidated by the fact that all these people were at least a couple years older than myself and as I was, unaccustomed to being in a 'position', and elected, no less, of course my youthful pride reared up and I said: "well, I'm going to have to audition them first"! LoL!!!! ...still makes me laugh (& blush) when I think of it! can you imagine?!? *L* the real kicker, though, came when I finally did get them booked in to play for the weekend... and it was SRO! their routine was to do 3 sets... one each alone and one together... well, first Chuck played his set (and , in case you're wondering, he was good... really good! ballads mostly... a real pro performer! wow, there are SO many lyrics on the first album I could tell you stuff about!) and then, after the break, there she was mounting the stage with her martin... never before (or since) have I experienced such beauty as Joni live onstage... her voice was superb and her charm irresistable! I had to do the reostats for the colored lights... and, from the first song, I was floating! and between songs she talked and joked and flirted and laughed... (had to change the tunings, ya know...) and her laughter was like sunshine goin' right through ya! ...but when it really, really hit home... (the 'audition' thing?) was at the end of her set... "yesterday a child came out..." sing along... circle game... and when she got to the chorus, the WHOLE PLACE joined in!!! and it was deafening... and it was like coming home..." *S* pat NP: Down To You http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:55:56 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Against Therapy - not much Joni content Hey - Getting around to finally going through all those digests piling up and had to say something on the therapy thread. In the highly disputed Joni bio, Hinton does talk about the time that Joni saw an analyst. Apparently, it was short term, and that's what I think most encounters with a therapist ought to be. There are some fascinating books critical of therapy and they should be read by therapists to avoid some very real and frequent pit falls -- it can only make them better shrinks. One of them is by the brilliant Jeffrey Mousaieff Masson and it's called AGAINST THERAPY. Equally interesting is MANUFACTURING VICTIMS by Tana Dineen. Both are former therapists who take their former vocations to task, and you will never look at therapy the same way again after reading them. I am friends with a number of shrinks and it's always fascinating to find out what they think of each other. A generally bright and competitive group of people, they are often very quick to diagnose and pathologize each other -- they all think of each other as crazy. Here in Southern California, where as Truman Capote put it, "everyone is in therapy, is a therapist, or is a therapist seeing another therapist", the competition for patients is enormous. Just not enough clients to go around for everyone with an MFCC, a Ph.D. or an MD with psychoanalytic training. A number of more responsible shrinks are inclined to make their clients work on their goals, achieve them and then end the sessions. Some are genuinely compassionate and wise. But far too many concentrate on the pathology of their patients and seduce them into the cult of self-obsession. The depth psychologists are the most guilty of this, where self-examination becomes a kind of hobby that not everyone can afford, and "working on yourself" becomes a luxury of self-indulgence where you are steered into thinking of yourself as a unique victim who needs therapy in order to function. And there are such dark and satisfying pleasures in that.... Endless, pointless therapy where you make the same mistakes in behavior is useless -- there have to be results. Otherwise, you are just paying someone to be your friend and concentrate on you and your neuroses which only has the effect of furthering them. I have known too many people who are constantly searching out new therapies, new techniques, new ways to overcome some incurable inner hurt. What most of them are really avoiding is taking total responsibility for their lives and their own happiness. The therapy junkie is someone who ultimately can't accept he has got to parent himself and wants some guru to show him the way. It's a cliche that a therapist is someone with a lot of problems who is trying to heal himself, but I can assure you, this is all too often the case. What matters is what you do, not what you say, and consequently, your feelings will change as well. Someone who is still in therapy after years really would be better off learning to play an instrument, pick up a paint brush, spike a volleyball, learn to make a Sacher torte. Works for me. I have benefited from therapy as a teenager, but years later I was side tracked by a therapist in a weak moment who imposed his own agenda and projected his own "pathology" onto my situation. I later learned how completely crazy this man was when I read his books which advocated the worship of a pantheon of deities that he discovered during his numerous LSD trips and marijuana binges. He actually told me that relationships were not meant to be happy but were unavoidably about playing out all our negative parent issues. He then mentioned that he didn't believe in monogamy and never had any interest in living with a partner. Very plainly, there are some very fucked up therapists out there who have no business helping people get better since they can't get better themselves. I will never be in therapy again because I have many wise and wonderful friends that I can talk with which is the real effect of what Freud called "the talking cure" . One therapist I know (who is totally obnoxious and inappropriate) is in session with an analyst four times a week and once a week with a psychologist. He has no other friends, so he has to buy them. Some people are lucky to find knowledgeable, client focused therapists who can indeed give them appropriate guidance. And some therapists are opportunistic and predatory and don't want to release a client because it means very simply that they will be denied their income and their power over that person. Therapy should foster a person's independence, but that goal is antithetical to the practice because too often the therapist imposes his own views and agenda on the process. This subject matter is something I have explored in my play SELF HELP, coming to Chicago this spring and later to New York. And yes, in the spirit of enlightened self-interest, that's a plug! np: crickets on a beautiful California evening ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 00:06:30 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Joni First Time Hello All- Welcome to all the newbies out there, my we have been delurking at quite a pace here lately. Have we broke 600 yet Les? The first time I heard Joni was Paris in 1971. I submitted a story (which is now published in the gallery) about Julie from New York, who changed my life with songs like Marcie and Michael From Mountains. I have loved her ever since and Julie has an entire wing of my heart still. I have returned the favour many times over by turning people on to Joni. When ever I give presents I usually give music and that is usually Joni. Love to all, Michael (really gearing up for Jazz Fest now) P.S. I am working Spring Fest in Pensacola if anyone would like to be my guest. I am the stage manager for the main stage and they always give me plenty of passes that I am happy to share. (Backstage, food, beer, etc.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:51:41 -0600 From: evian Subject: Why PC Talk Can't Work/Was NJC list ... er (NJC) > As far as Indians/Native Americans > are concerned, my understanding was that it was the term RED Indian that was > particularly insulting, and that American Indian was OK. Are there any > Indians/Native Americans on the list who can enlighten us? > I don't know about America, but here in central Canada, the term "Indian" has some stigma attached to it. While the debate still rages on, I think that the current p.c. terms for "Canadian-Indian are First Nations People, Aboriginal, and Indigenous, with First Nations being the more commonly used. Evian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:51:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Rick & Penny Gibbons) Subject: First time--Joni addict--Pusher Hi my name is Penny, and I'm a Joniaholic. (all together, "Hi Penny".) It started out innocently, in high school, my senior year, I'd walk by the commons and would catch a listen to Help Me playing over the school radio. Who is that? Great voice. There's something different about who ever is singing that song. I can't put my finger on it but her sound gives me warm fuzzies, very comforting and maybe theraputic? I go on to my English class and pick up a magazine to browse, it's Time with Joni Mitchell on the cover. I read the article, steal the magazine and get Court and Spart the next time I'm in a record store. I was hopelessly hooked instantly. My new boyfriend supplied the next fix when he bought me Miles of Aisles, trying to win my heart completely away from two old flames I was still semi-juggling. (he became my husband 4 1/2 years later) Freshmen year in college, my basketball teammates threw a birthday party for me and gave me Blue hoping the fix would please and satisfy me. It pleased, but didn't satisfy my craving. Hissing was then bought for me by my first college roommate, thinking "I've got to shut this girl up, so I'll give her another fix." It wasn't enough. I bought the rest of Joni's albums to date (1976) within the next few months. Woe is me, so much to absorb and others don't understand the addiction. My friends don't know what they're missing.....they only "like" Joni....soooo sad. I'll enlighten them! We'll be able to share at such a deeper level when they love Joni too! Graduation presents from me were Joni's entire catalog. I had become a pusher. I've turned more people on to Joni than I can even remember. I don't remember all their names or faces, I only know it made me feel good. So selfish of me to not think about how they could be affected like I was, addicted, always craving more, and maybe, future pushers too. The most recent victim of my Joni pushing was just Friday. I'm an independent contractor, so I meet people in their homes before I work for them. I get a feel for what kind of music they listen to and when I show up to do the work I come with the appropriate Joni sampling. I disguise it as what I "just happened" to be listening to while I'm in their home working, but it's a lure. I try to suck them in. Friday it was a wealthy 60ish couple who had mentioned they like jazz. The wife kept making excuses to come downstairs, where I was working, and was she getting lost in doing nothing. Her eyes would close and a look of serene pleasure covered her face hearing TTT and Gerswins World (Jazz Takes, would have been in this mix too, had I gotten my hands on it). She asked all the right musical questions, who, album titles..... I feel awful...so guilty! They're always smiling as they pay their bill. My job was done. I'm going to sit down now. Thank you for letting me know I'm in the company of other's with the same problem. That's very comforting. Smiles, Penny NP Shadows and Light....HOSL ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #168 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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