From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #167 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, April 18 1999 Volume 04 : Number 167 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The Ultimate Concert ["Winfried Hühn" ] Barry Manilow, fingernails, Both Sides Now [CarltonCT@aol.com] The Ultimate Concert ["Paul Castle" ] Irish Causeway (NJC) [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: The Ultimate Concert (NJC) [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: The First Time ["Deb Messling" ] PC and other NJC [Clancyhart@aol.com] Re: The Ultimate Concert [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Barry Manilow, fingernails, Both Sides Now [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Burning My First Joni CD [MHart16164@aol.com] Re: fingernails [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: [md] The First Time [MDESTE1@aol.com] Hejira - why it's less than perfect (IMHO) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: New Artist ALYSON MAX (NJC) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Barry Manilow, fingernails, Both Sides Now [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: The Ultimate Concert [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: The First Time [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Burning My First Joni CD [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Hejira - why it's less than perfect (IMHO) [RMuRocks@aol.com] pc, the saga continues (NJC) [Alan ] The First Time(JC) [Lisa Kowalski ] Re: Hejira - less than perfect [Scott Price ] Re: Hejira - why it's less than perfect (IMHO) [catman ] Re: The First Time [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Hejira - less than perfect [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Leno & Joni [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Hejira - less than perfect [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: BLUE gold CD, TI Ear [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Another Newcomer (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Re[2]: Why PC Talk Can't Work/Was NJC list ... er (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.] Re: Therapy? [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Hejira - less than perfect ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Therapy? [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Therapy? NJC [Ginamu@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:50:48 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: The Ultimate Concert A double bill concert with Van Morrison and Christy Moore. Winfried, obviously still on his Ireland trip P.S.: my first website is up, with pictures of the Giant's Causeway in Northern Ireland: http://www.stud.uni-goettingen.de/~whuehn/Causeway.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 05:53:48 EDT From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Barry Manilow, fingernails, Both Sides Now Hello - Just had to mention a conversation I had with someone tonight. Met a nice, handsome guy who was wearing a tuxedo who had just come from a GLAAD Media Awards show and he told me he was a music producer. I asked him what five CDs he was playing at the moment and he mentioned how much he loved the Costello/Bacharach album as well as Van Morrison's latest. I mentioned seeing Van at the Duck Pond in Anaheim, and he said he went to that concert, but mostly to see Joni Mitchell. Well, that sent the conversation into a different direction. He first saw Joni on a For the Roses Tour. I asked him what music he produced, and he told me he works for ... Barry Manilow! Well ... I am sure that someone on this list is going to say they love both Joni and Barry since I remember a number of people piped up to say they were Carpenters fans. That surprised me, but now nothing would. Anyway, I asked this guy if Barry was a Joni fan -- yes, he most certainly is. He loves her. I can't stop chuckling. I think like many of us, my first exposure to Joni was through Judy Collins version of Both Sides Now. I have had that version in my head lately -- it's about as different from Joni's plain guitar and vocals version as you can get, but still quite beautiful and haunting. I must have been about 10 at the time, and as unwise about life and love as you can get, but that song had a hold on me -- especially that harpsichord in the background. It was a top ten hit on WABC out of New York, played by Cousin Brucie from my plastic radio in New Jersey. Back then, that kind of AM radio played the top 10 over and over, sandwiching the Beatles psychedelic efforts with Bobby Goldsboro's "Honey". What a time for music .... Anyway, had a question for all the guitarist's in the group. What are your fingernails like? I keep mine very short, but noticed Joni's are long, as are most women's. Are the ones on her left hand shorter so she can press down on the frets? Does she leave the ones on right hand longer so she can pluck the strings ? I often have to peel my thumb nail when I am picking or else it gets stuck on the bass strings. One thing I wanted to share was that I have always been frustrated that I could not get the same rich sound that Joni does when she plays -- how does she strike all those strings at the same time, and isolate others to compliment the melody? It was only a year ago (thanks to Sue, Marion and others who contribute their work to the guitar tablature) that I realized, a lot of these songs are double tracked. Nonetheless, some of those songs which are not double tracked have a very rich accompaniment that is hard to duplicate. Again, just sitting here after a great night of socializing and marveling at Joni's genius. And as for Both Sides Now, someone was asking about easy Joni songs to play. It is one of them! Very simple fingering and strum patterns, but easily her most enduring song. I read references to it in a magazine article this week, and heard a comedian talking about "both sides now" in some cheap sex joke. What I'd love to hear someday are all those covers of it by Frank Sinatra and Perry Como among others. Maybe Barry Manilow has one too! np: Rufus Wainwright (who loves Joni and is also a painter) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:33:23 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: The Ultimate Concert Hi - Paul from over in London here - another newcomer who has been 'looking in' for the last month or so (the word 'lurking' sounds a bit furtive to me). Have got into the habit of reading the digest every morning with my cup of coffee. Eeh lovely! Lately I had been a bit worried that, with the JCO changes to the list, I had been inadvertantly transferred to the NJCW (NoJoni Content Whatsoever) list, but the latest digest seems to be back to normal. Looks like my personal dream concert will soon be a reality - found the following in the Bruce Hornsby Newsletter - "Starting August 26 Bonnie Raitt, Jackson Browne, Shawn Colvin and Bruce Hornsby will come together to play 20-25 concerts across the U.S. The shows will feature mini-sets from each singer-songwriter to be followed by a lengthy "band set" with everyone playing together. The exact dates for this special tour will be announced soon, and all parties look forward to this coming together of kindred spirits." Whether I can afford the ticket prices and flight over from the UK is another matter. Hey ho, I can only hope that the tour is so successful and they all enjoy it so much that they want to bring it to Europe adding Joni to the band. Now wouldn't that be something!! My first Joni concert was at the Royal Festival Hall (on the South Bank of the River Thames) back in 1972 supported by newcomer Jackson Browne, whose first album 'Saturate before Use' had just been released. I remember being blown away by his 'Song for Adam'. In fact this show was pretty much my ultimate dream concert that has yet to be bettered - good seats down the front - Joni moving from guitar to grand piano playing a mixture of favourites and new stuff and, if my memory serves me well, finishing with an amazing version of Rainy Night House - eeh, really lovely!! I think this is enough for my first post - thanks for letting me butt in. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:45:59 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Irish Causeway (NJC) In a message dated 4/18/99 4:51:32 AM Central Daylight Time, whuehn@stud.uni-goettingen.de writes: << P.S.: my first website is up, with pictures of the Giant's Causeway in Northern Ireland: http://www.stud.uni-goettingen.de/~whuehn/Causeway.htm >> Nice job Winny! The Causeway site reminds me of the excellent movie "Secret of Roan Inish". Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:53:15 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: The Ultimate Concert (NJC) In a message dated 4/18/99 5:39:55 AM Central Daylight Time, Paul Castle says: << I think this is enough for my first post - thanks for letting me butt in. Paul >> Hiya Paul! Great post - I hope that tour comes through Greenville, that'd be super. I saw Jackson Browne on his "Hold Out" tour - one of the few performers who can perform to 15,000 people yet make you feel like you're the only one there! Thanks for "butting in" - keep it up! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 08:28:02 -0400 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: The First Time My first time was in July of 1969. My older sister was curious about this person who had written some Judy Collins songs, and she talked me into spending my allowance on "Clouds" rather than risk her own. I played Side Two first, so the very first Joni song I ever heard was "The Gallery." I was hooked immediately, as was my sister. (I've shared this story before, but repeating oneself is one of the privileges of growing older.) Deb Messling ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:32:47 EDT From: Clancyhart@aol.com Subject: PC and other NJC just wanted to say that i agreed with alot of what "the Rev" had to say, especially about enjoying stories and memories from other joni fans. but i want to add that, although i have stayed out of the PC discussions, and have even skimmed over some of the longer missives, i am glad to see people are still passionate about these sorts of issues. some days i feels so jaded...but i do think the PC movement, like so many others, is a good intention gone awry. of course, i waffle on this all of the time, which is why i have stayed out of the discussions. i do love the fact that my kids, growing up in north carolina, have never even heard the word "nigger". that is a good thing. the whole "niggardly" issue seems a result not so much of political correctness as just ignorance. and by the way, heather, i thought your cracker comment was hilarious. keep posting, Rev. as a lapsed christian struggling to regain some faith, i am sure we could have some lively discussions, NJC and otherwise. amy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:38:51 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: The Ultimate Concert In a message dated 4/18/99 6:39:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pdcmusic@freeuk.com writes: << My first Joni concert was at the Royal Festival Hall (on the South Bank of the River Thames) back in 1972 supported by newcomer Jackson Browne, whose first album 'Saturate before Use' had just been released. I remember being blown away by his 'Song for Adam'. In fact this show was pretty much my ultimate dream concert that has yet to be bettered - good seats down the front - Joni moving from guitar to grand piano playing a mixture of favourites and new stuff and, if my memory serves me well, finishing with an amazing version of Rainy Night House - eeh, really lovely!! Paul >> Paul, Welcome. I saw the Chicago stop on that tour in January 1972. I also remember Jackson's set very well. "Song for Adam" was great. Having just spent a week in Jamaica, I also remember well the story he told before playing "Jamaica Say You Will," as well as a littly ditty about "Together in sin at the Holiday Inn." From Joni's set, the most memorable moment was when she came out to start her second set alone, standing almost in the back wing of the stage, and played "Urge for Going," which I'd never heard until then. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:37:06 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Barry Manilow, fingernails, Both Sides Now CCT- Funny, when I saw Joni here in Detroit up close before her concert, I, too was curious about her nails because in photos, they do seem fairly long for a guitarist (left hand, anyway). So, I took a peek fairly close up and from what I could tell, they are (left hand, again) medium length and filed somewhat straight. That sort of surprises me, because one would think that it would cause her to get hooked on the strings. Did anyone else take a peek? At any rate, I keep my left hand nails trimmed short and my right medium length. Not very attractive, but who cares. Terry, who does not care for B.Manilow at all, but does like the Carpenters << Anyway, had a question for all the guitarist's in the group. What are your fingernails like? I keep mine very short, but noticed Joni's are long, as are most women's. Are the ones on her left hand shorter so she can press down on the frets? Does she leave the ones on right hand longer so she can pluck the strings ? >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:11:32 EDT From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: Re: Burning My First Joni CD In a message dated 99-04-17 03:32:50 EDT, you write: << What should I title it? E.T. >> "A Case of You" or "A Box of Paints." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:18:43 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: fingernails In a message dated 4/18/99 9:39:59 AM Central Daylight Time, Terry writes about Joni's fingernails: << Did anyone else take a peek? >> In the second photo of Joni and me (her hand gripping mine), her fingernails are in plain sight, they look pretty typical for women's fingernails. Of course, in the first picture, her hand was holding mine so tightly her nails were in my hand and not in view...I had to tell her not to get so carried away!! :~D (I'm joking about that last part of course...) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:54:52 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: [md] The First Time The first time I heard joni it wasnt joni, it was Dave Van Ronk doing Clouds. Van Ronk was an east coast folk singer with an awful scratchy voice who usually talked his songs through as opposed to singing. I still play Clouds today using Van Ronks guitar arrangement. There was always a block of time between classes (in college) when I was in school so we would go back to the dorms and listen to records etc. Most of my friends were into folk music and we played many albums that Im not sure I have seen (even in the "used" bins) since. I remember hearing Clouds for the first time and just loved the song. I thought this guy Van Ronk was a great songwriter (her aslo sang the chestnut "Cocaine (run all 'round my brain')" until my friend pointed out that that particular song was written by this Joni Mitchell. Of course around the same time everyone was into Joan Baez and Judy Collins and I noticed that Judy Collins also did joni mithcell songs. Finally a girl I knew at the time played Jonis Clouds album for me and the rest is history. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:55:20 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Hejira - why it's less than perfect (IMHO) Hejira is one of the best > albums of all time in my opinion. > CAtgirl I figured out part of the reason why Hejira isn't at the top of my list of favorites. Even though I love the lyrics and think they are among the finest Joni has ever written, there are so many of them. And as a result, the melodies become very repititious. 'Refuge of the Roads' in particular is almost monotous but since it is a song about travelling by car that is probably intentional. But each verse repeats virtually the same melodic line three times (there is a slight variation in the third repitition). You multiply that times X number of verses there is a lot of musical repitition to the song as a whole. 'Harry's House' on HOSL is kind of the same way but to me what the instruments are doing contributes so much to the song's ambiance that it isn't the least bit monotous or boring. 'Coyote', 'Amelia', 'Furry', 'Hejira', 'Song For Sharon', 'Refuge of the Roads' all have quite a few verses with no bridge or variation and the instruments are so understated that they don't add much shading to the individual verses or color to the songs as a whole. I count 'Black Crow' and 'Blue Motel Room' as exceptions. 'Black Crow' is so restless and invigorating that it could never be boring (except maybe when Cassandra Wilson sings it - I love the woman's voice and 'You Don't Know What Love Is' is exquisite but she completely misses the mark on 'Black Crow, imo) and 'Blue Motel Room' has a definite bridge that goes a long way toward putting some musical variety into the song. 'Sire of Sorrow' is another song that has a lot of verses but somehow escapes being monotonous. That song in particular far outshines anything on 'Hejira' imo. I think Joni's last three records are all much more melodic and musically interesting than 'Hejira'. And just to be all the more irritating, I've always thought of 'For the Roses' as the preliminary sketch for 'Court and Spark'. Nobody ever seems to talk much about 'Court and Spark'. Maybe because it was so commercially successful? Or because it's the record that so may critics or non-Joni-philes cite when asked about Joni and then they dismiss everything that came after it? It seems to be the unwanted step-child amongst the faithful. It was the first of Joni's albums I bought and I've always thought it was flawlessly brilliant. Poor 'Court & Spark'. It's not its fault it was so popular. Popularity doesn't necessarily make a record less than brilliant, does it? Sometimes the record-buying public does pick a good one! Rarely, but sometimes they do. Mark in Seattle in the pulpit on this Sunday morning. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:00:00 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Leno & Joni > PS I know Jay is not stupid because if he was Joni would have never appeared > on his show. As I recall Jay made some comment about 'every girl I knew in college' had a copy of 'Court & Spark' or something like that. I don't think Joni was particularly flattered or amused. Give me Letterman any day of the week. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:04:06 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: New Artist ALYSON MAX (NJC) In a message dated 4/18/1999 1:27:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Kirsten302@aol.com writes: << I just stumbled upon this great new female artist, Alyson Max. I think she's Joni influenced. She's got this one song called STOLEN MOMENT, and it reminds me of exactly something I was going through not too long ago: >> I can't think of one female artist who started after Joni's Blue album that was NOT influenced by her...LOL! So with that said...... Catgirl....... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:20:23 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Barry Manilow, fingernails, Both Sides Now Ok as far as Barry goes...if someone likes him go for it. I am not a Barry Manilow fan and I am also not a fan of alot of *New* music out today. Call me stuck in the 60's or stuck on Joni whatever. I do love that Costello/Bacharach CD...Elvis really does have a great voice (at least for those songs) BTW, PBS had a great show of that album. The nail situation for me is this.... Any white showing on my left hand makes it almost hard for me to do chords all the way up at the 12th fret. (coming straigt down on the strings up there you really can't have any nail-for me anyway) So I would say left is short, right is slitely long for finger picking. I fingerpick with my finger (obviously) but not with the nail (maybe I should learn). Bad habits are hard to quit!! I guess Both sides now was the first Joni I heard but by Judy. When I first discovered Joni though it was with the song Ladies of the canyon..from there it is all *herstory*! Catgirl....Annie sits you down to eat, she always makes you welcomed in...CATS and babies 'round her feet and all are fat and none are thin.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:23:22 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: The Ultimate Concert In a message dated 4/18/1999 6:39:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pdcmusic@freeuk.com writes: << "Starting August 26 Bonnie Raitt, Jackson Browne, Shawn Colvin and Bruce Hornsby will come together to play 20-25 concerts across the U.S. The shows will feature mini-sets from each singer-songwriter to be followed by a lengthy "band set" with everyone playing together. The exact dates for this special tour will be announced soon, and all parties look forward to this coming together of kindred spirits." Whether I can afford the ticket prices and flight over from the UK is another matter. Hey ho, I can only hope that the tour is so successful and they all enjoy it so much that they want to bring it to Europe adding Joni to the band. Now wouldn't that be something!! >> Question:::Do you actually think Joni would ever tour with Jackson Browne or visa-versa? I don't know if there is a feud going on but I kinda thought there was. Catgirl....the story hit the news from coast to coast.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:26:25 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: The First Time In a message dated 4/18/1999 8:28:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, messling@enter.net writes: << My first time was in July of 1969. My older sister was curious about this person who had written some Judy Collins songs, and she talked me into spending my allowance on "Clouds" rather than risk her own. I played Side Two first, so the very first Joni song I ever heard was "The Gallery." I was hooked immediately, as was my sister. (I've shared this story before, but repeating oneself is one of the privileges of growing older.) Well Deb, This is news to me. Great little story. I enjoy learning how some discovered her for the first time. Any one else want to share their Joni stories again and agian and agian??? Catgirl...husband playing ..you turn me on I'm a radio...sounds so much better then me..one day with lots of practice!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:28:42 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Burning My First Joni CD In a message dated 4/18/1999 11:15:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MHart16164@aol.com writes: << < What should I title it? E.T. >> "A Case of You" or "A Box of Paints." >> Mhart, I love these titles..I think I will use these..sorry ET!! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:00:39 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira - why it's less than perfect (IMHO) Mark evangelizes: << Nobody ever seems to talk much about 'Court and Spark'. Maybe because it was so commercially successful? Or because it's the record that so may critics or non-Joni-philes cite when asked about Joni and then they dismiss everything that came after it? It seems to be the unwanted step-child amongst the faithful. It was the first of Joni's albums I bought and I've always thought it was flawlessly brilliant. Poor 'Court & Spark'. It's not its fault it was so popular. Popularity doesn't necessarily make a record less than brilliant, does it? >> Mark, great post about Hejira and also this comment about C&S. And sometimes I wonder the same thing. It's funny, the two most fascinating threads I've read since joining up are the "Sweet Bird" thread long ago and the recent "Jungle Line" thread, both from HOSL...Are people just "talked out" on C&S? I hope not. Maybe this week we can delve into C&S - I for one would love to talk about it (but I can wait til I'm at work, after all, this is so much more fun when I'm at work and getting paid) :~D Bob, ears finally back to normal after last night's Aerosmith show.... NP: STP, "Silvergun Superman" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:26:47 -0500 From: Alan Subject: pc, the saga continues (NJC) Vince Lavieri wrote: > To the person who said that crime rate is higher for > minorities, I suggest learn more about the topic. Minorities are > arrested at a far higher rate than whites in America, and if you want > facts and statistics, those can be given. Well Vince, welcome to the JMDL; nothing like coming in swinging. I think that must be aimed at me, but you are misquoting me. I said that the minority crime rate was disproportionate. That is, the percentage crime rate for many minority groups is out of proportion with their representation in our society as a whole; this isn't unique to the U.S. Winfried (in Germany) mentioned that the racist interpretation is ""see -- they're all scum" and I mentioned that the alternate extreme interpretation was that the statistics "prove" discrimination. You may believe the latter perspective, that's fine, but you seem to be assigning my views to the former, which isn't fine. Winfried said, "IMO this shows that we weren't very successful in integrating immigrants" (a minority group) "into our society." I agree with him. I believe the root of most crime is lack of access; to education, to role models, to economic opportunity, etc...And yes, I am open to learning more about the topic. If you think my view reflects ignorance, please enlighten me. Alan NP in my head "Borderline" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:21:15 From: Lisa Kowalski Subject: The First Time(JC) I first saw Joni on a TV program in 1968(I cant remember the name of the program)It was a televised concert from Mississippi or Tenessee? with a very small intimate audience.It was in the middle of the summer and I dont think the place was air conditioned and there was Joni looking quite uncomfortable in a long velvet dress(she loves that velvet!)Even though she looked very hot and nervous she sang and played beautifully.I was a mesmerized 16yr old who could not take her eyes off the TV set.I sat on the floor so close to the TV I was practically on top of it. My parents happened to be watching too(they were sitting in chairs)and whenever they would speak I would say shhhh! I cant hear what she's singing(I didnt want to miss a word)When the concert was over I remember turning to my parents and saying,"Now thats a real folksinger!",so grateful was I that there was such a person in this world that could touch me so deeply and to this very day still does.... Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 13:08:41 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Hejira - less than perfect At 10:55 AM 4/18/99 -0700, Mark in Seattle wrote: >I figured out part of the reason why Hejira isn't at the top of my >list of favorites. Even though I love the lyrics and think they are >among the finest Joni has ever written, there are so many of them. >And as a result, the melodies become very repititious. 'Refuge of the >Roads' in particular is almost monotous Mark, I too believe the lyrics are the best she's ever written, in fact, the best *anyone* has ever written. And it is for this reason that the sparse instrumentation and repetition of melodies works so very well. I'm a "music" person first, as opposed to a "lyrics" person. When I first listen to a song if the music doesn't affect me I don't usually give the lyrics a chance, no matter how good they may be. An example would be much of Dylan's material. The lyrics are masterful but the way they're presented just doesn't do much for me. But Hejira's lyrics are so full of images and insights that they do not require any musical hooks or tricks to strengthen the songs. The musical simplicity IS what makes this album so special, even to one who craves a lot of instruments and layers. Having said that, I do find that there is a lot of complexity in Hejira's arrangements, but they are secondary to the poetry. Jaco's bass parts, in particular, add huge amounts of color and feeling. With Jaco, Joni was able to bring the bass "out front," as she describes it, and the result is stunning. His bass carries the lead in many places, something that was rarely, if ever, done on a "pop" album before or since. I'll cite two examples of the musical colorings. The electric guitar on "Amelia," absolutely captures the "drone of flying engines." It *is* the sound of aircraft engines! And on "Refuge," when Jaco's bass explodes with that low sustained note, it *is* a thunderhead building. In my opinion the bass, especially on "Refuge," covers the "bridges" that you find absent. His bass lines effectively carry the spaces between lyrics, and add such a dimension! "Refuge" has an "otherworldly" quality to it and this feeling is created by the musical introduction and the bridges which serve to keep the song building higher and higher. It is a huge song, so full of drama. Listen to the passages just before the lyrics "I pulled off into the forest" and "In a highway service station." These may be subtle, but I find they effectively "bridge" the melodies and lyrics. The instrumentation on this song never fails to transport me to another place, and then you throw in that brilliant poetry...ahh.... :-) The songs you mention as "monotonous" are anything but, IMO. "Song for Sharon" in particular is more like a narrative and its brilliance would only be overshadowed by a more layered musical arrangement or a greater variation in the melodic structure. I would have loved several more sets of lyrics to "Sharon" and "Refuge" so that their stories could be told in even greater detail...can you imagine a 20-minute version? Epic!! Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:19:37 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Hejira - why it's less than perfect (IMHO) Hejira is one of my favourites precisely because it is 'monotonous'. It is one my 'relaxation' albums-dark room, headphones on and off I drift. The backing on Song for Sharon is wonderful. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:18:55 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: The First Time I had arrived in England in May 75 from Australia. I lived in Portsmouth, Hampshire. At this time I only had the first 4 Carly Simon albums, Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon, Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells and Ommadawn, and David Bowie's Diamond Dogs and The Rise And Fall Of Ziggy Stardust And The Spiders From Mars and Station To Staion(i think that was 75). The local radio Station was Radio Victory, Porstmouth(or Pompey) being a Naval city. Anyhow I heard The Jungle Line on this station. It resonated with me immediately and i went out and bought THOSL. A little later I went out and bought all of joni's albums before this. What a shock I got! Each one was so different from the other. I loved STAS, but not Clods, LOTC, FTR or Blue. C&S I did like-and then remembered that I had studied the lyric of People's Parties the year previously in English class at school in Aust. Our teacher was an American. The reason I didn't like the albums mentioned was because I found her voice too high. However, that was when i was 16 and I am now 40 and like those albums now, especially LOTC. Now I have all of Joni's work and also all of carly's. I stopped buying Bowie after Station To Station as I did not like heroes at all. I added a couple more Pink's, no more Oldfields, but my taste has widened somewhat with about 400 cd's now and many more on vynl. My favourite's being female singer/songwriters(no male singers at all) and music I find hard to classify like Enigma, Deep Forest, Jarre, Tangerine Dream, and dance music. Plus I have all of ABBA's work and Donna Summer's work with Moroder. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:03:04 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: The First Time In a message dated 4/17/1999 8:31:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stevem@cruzio.com writes: << We both learned to play guitar and sing and would drink Sangria and play Joni's songs. I put down the guitar since then but continue to sing Joni's songs to this day, 26 years later. What was your first time like, if you can remember. Leslie >> You need to pick up that guitar again and play!!! You never forget your first Joni.... I heard LOTC song from that album. I started playing her music and ran out and got her songbooks. Even way back in 76, it was still hard to find her music. I had to order vol. 1 and then 2 because no stores carried it. Very glad I did because everything of hers is out of print except for Anthology and Misses. I wonder who we start bugging to get her music back into the printing mode. It saddens me that her music is so hard to get. The songbooks she made are beautiful, full of pictures and neat art work. Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:59:26 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira - less than perfect In a message dated 4/18/99 4:11:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sp@olympus.net writes: << And it is for this reason that the sparse instrumentation and repetition of melodies works so very well. >> I have to agree with Scott's letter, to a "t". It's the subtlety of the music and intensity of the lyrics that make this a masterpiece. I, too, need to be hooked by melody before I pay attention to lyrics- and because of that, have never been able to listen to Dylan either. I find Song For Sharon SO powerful that I still get goosebumps when I hear it. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:29:20 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Leno & Joni In a message dated 4/18/1999 2:00:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mark-n-travis@worldnet.att.net writes: << PS I know Jay is not stupid because if he was Joni would have never appeared > on his show. As I recall Jay made some comment about 'every girl I knew in college' had a copy of 'Court & Spark' or something like that. I don't think Joni was particularly flattered or amused. Give me Letterman any day of the week. Mark in Seattle >> I agree and I do beleieve that she has been on Letterman more then Leno. She also looked and sounded alot better on Letterman then Leno. Must be the energy. She also seemed more relaxed and happy on Lettermen then on Leno. Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:45:30 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira - less than perfect In a message dated 4/18/1999 4:11:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sp@olympus.net writes: << The songs you mention as "monotonous" are anything but, IMO. "Song for Sharon" in particular is more like a narrative and its brilliance would only be overshadowed by a more layered musical arrangement or a greater variation in the melodic structure. I would have loved several more sets of lyrics to "Sharon" and "Refuge" so that their stories could be told in even greater detail...can you imagine a 20-minute version? Epic!! Scott >> HERE HERE Scott. Maybe we could call Hejira the Dylan album she always wanted to write. Sure, the songs have the same melody in them and the lyrics are long but that is what makes it so perfect. She blows Dylan out of the water as far as the lyrics are concerned but she always did to me anyway. Jaco was at his absolute best during the making of that album.. Pat Metheny made me fall in love with him too. He is one of the best guitarist ever in my opinion. The way you talked about that album just now, it makes me want to hear the album! You said exactly how I felt. It must be that wave length thing that so many on the list have. You go boy!* Catgirl (*hoping this time I am Politically Correct) PS I will be keeping your post..it is beautiful! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:57:45 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: BLUE gold CD, TI Ear In a message dated 4/17/1999 6:31:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << >I was listening to Blue on my CD player in the car. When *Last time I saw >Richard* came on a noticed some clicking noise in the piano intro. If you notice on the first >few bars of the piano, there are these little "clicking" sounds. There was some discussion on the list awhile back (sorry I don't recall who mentioned it) that Joni has often deliberately left in some of the little glitches and flaws in her recordings. Joni has also discussed this in at least one article I've read. It seems to be part of her art not to have the final product be too "perfect". Based on that, it's conceivable that she thought the piano clicking gave a more "real time" effect. >> I do beleive that this was the noise I heard not her finger nails htting the keys. However, I must say that Hejira is *Perfect* in my opinion! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:57:55 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Another Newcomer (NJC) In a message dated 4/14/99 12:53:40PM, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << We actually did have a Nick Drake thread a long while ago...I don't have any of his stuff but have been sitting on the fence and looking at his discs every time I visit the record store. >> Bob, a couple of weeks ago I finally splashed out on the complete works, aka the box set "Fruit Tree", and I was not disappointed. I'd heard a lot of his stuff over the years and always liked it. To listen to those three albums all the way through in quick succession was a revelation "Time of No Reply", the collection of unreleased stuff, is not quite as essential). I found it relatively cheap (30 quid) in a second hand shop. For those on a limited budget, "Way to Blue" is a lovely compilation; if you're buying the albums one by one, I suggest you start with "Bryter Later", then "Five Leaves Left", then "Pink Moon". Byeee, Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:57:52 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Why PC Talk Can't Work/Was NJC list ... er (NJC) In a message dated 4/13/99 12:54:37PM, Ginamu@aol.com writes: << Especially since I've worked with a ton of people of color who are sick to death of being called African-American when they call themselves black >> I couldn't agree more Gina; I have never heard a black person refer to him or herself as Afro-Caribbean [the term promulgated by the PC police in the UK], I've only heard it used by white people. As far as Indians/Native Americans are concerned, my understanding was that it was the term RED Indian that was particularly insulting, and that American Indian was OK. Are there any Indians/Native Americans on the list who can enlighten us? Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:57:59 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Therapy? In a message dated 4/14/99 1:19:35PM, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << My opinion is that "amateur therapy" is probably much more effective than professional therapy. [...] I'll also bet that we're our own best therapists (excepting extreme cases)...after all, where's the incentive for a professional therapist to "cure" us - their income stops when we're fixed! Better to keep ripping the scabs off our emotional wounds than to allow them to heal..." Speaking as someone who is currently training to be a psychotherapist, may I put in my two penn'orth here?! I can see what you're getting at about therapists losing clients once they've "cured" them, but, as I'm sure you know, it's not as straightforward as that. Sadly, there are a lot of charlatans out there claiming to be therapists, and they're doing the profession a lot of harm. That said, I can personally testify to the immense value that the objective view and therapeutic expertise of a good therapist can bring. I have really managed to sort a few issues out that had been holding me back, and with which none of my friends could have helped me. However, I firmly believe that - as you suggest - we do have the answers within us. Indeed, one of the central tenets of Psychosynthesis, which is the branch in which I'm training, is that all people have an innate wisdom, and that this includes knowledge of what their own values and bottom line are. The trouble is that many people cannot access this wisdom readily. I good therapist doesn't give the answers, s/he helps the client to find them - and to do that requires a lot of skill. I'm loving the course, learning a lot about people and about myself, and can't wait until I'm in a position to go out there and make a difference by helping others towards their own bottom line. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:20:24 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Hejira - less than perfect Pat Metheny > made me fall in love with him too. He is one of the best guitarist ever in > my opinion. Not to pick nits or pick on Catgirl, but...Pat Metheny doesn't play on Hejira. He does play on the live 'Shadows & Light' album and adds some welcome variety and color to the songs from Hejira. Particularly 'Furry Sings the Blues' and his wonderful segue from 'Amelia' into 'Hejira'. And I did *not* say that any of the songs on 'Hejira' are monotonous. I said that Refuge is *almost* monotonous and I also said that 'Harry's House' on HOSL is not monotonous. Look, I certainly don't want to take anything away from 'Hejira'. It's an elegant and beautiful record. But to me it is a study in just a few very muted tones and I prefer some of Joni's records that have more color. Sometimes I get the feeling that it is assumed that every Joni-phile puts 'Hejira' at the top as some kind of lofty peak in Joni's career that she just can't ever aspire to again. That if you want to be a true fan you have to worship Hejira as the greatest record of all time. I am a Joniphile. I do not feel that way about 'Hejira'. And I also think it's selling Joni's recent work short to constantly compare it to a record she made 20 some years ago. It was an eloquent statement of where she was at then. She has matured both personally and artistically a great deal since then. I think the best is yet to come. Mark in Seattle, one bull-headed Taurean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:30:51 +1000 From: "Sarah Whitaker (ADC Administration)" Subject: Re: PC (NJC) Sorry all, but I couldn't resist posting this. A is an activist itching to fight. B is a beast with its animal rights. C was a cripple (now differently abled). D is a Drunk who is "liquor-enabled." E is an Ecologist who saves spotted owls. F was a Forrester, now staffing McDonald's. G is a Glutton who says he's "food-centered." H is a Hermaphrodite skirting problems of gender. I is an "Ism" (you'd better believe it). J is a Jingoist - love it or leave it! K is a Kettle the pot can't call black. L is a Lifestyle not bound to the pack. M is a Mindset with bias galore. N was a Negro, but not anymore. O is an Oppressor, devoid of self-love. P is the Patriarchy (see "O" above). Q is a Quip that costs someone a job. R is the Reasoning done by a mob. S is a Sexist, that slobbering menace. T is a Teapot that's brewing a tempest. U is for Umbrage at the slightest transgression. V is a Valentine, tool of oppression. W is for "Woman," however it's spelled. X is a chromosome we share in our cells. Y is a Yogi for the easily led. Z is a Zombie, the differently dead. Taken from "A More Enlightened Time (More Politically Correct Fairy Tales)" by James Finn Garner... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:27:35 PDT From: "John Low" Subject: Ultimate (non Joni) Concert / Hejira. Thanks to all those who welcomed me to the list. What a nice bunch of people jimdlers are! Marcel asks (16 April): "If you could have a dream concert (besides Joni)who would you have play ...?" At the moment the musician I would like to see in concert is a solo and acoustic Daevid Allen (of Gong). Earlier this year a fellow in Brisbane was trying to organise just such a concert in an intimate little venue in Fortitude Valley called 'The Zoo' and, while it hasn't come off yet, I am still hoping. I don't care about the food and I am assured the price will be reasonable. If it does comes off I'll scrape together the fare from Sydney and enjoy a wonderful evening with my son who goes to Uni in Brisbane. What a great testimonial for Hejira posted by Don Rowe (also 16 April)! It summed it up to perfection and (along with the infectious enthusiasm of the Catgirl) should certainly take any doubters back to the album for another listen. Whenever discussions of favourite JM albums occur I always find myself coming back to this one. John. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:04:27 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Therapy? In a message dated 4/18/99 6:01:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, AzeemAK@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 4/14/99 1:19:35PM, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << My opinion is that "amateur therapy" is probably much more effective than professional therapy. [...] I'll also bet that we're our own best therapists (excepting extreme cases)...after all, where's the incentive for a professional therapist to "cure" us - their income stops when we're fixed! Better to keep ripping the scabs off our emotional wounds than to allow them to heal..." Speaking as someone who is currently training to be a psychotherapist, may I put in my two penn'orth here?! I can see what you're getting at about therapists losing clients once they've "cured" them, but, as I'm sure you know, it's not as straightforward as that. Sadly, there are a lot of charlatans out there claiming to be therapists, and they're doing the profession a lot of harm. That said, I can personally testify to the immense value that the objective view and therapeutic expertise of a good therapist can bring. I have really managed to sort a few issues out that had been holding me back, and with which none of my friends could have helped me. However, I firmly believe that - as you suggest - we do have the answers within us. Indeed, one of the central tenets of Psychosynthesis, which is the branch in which I'm training, is that all people have an innate wisdom, and that this includes knowledge of what their own values and bottom line are. The trouble is that many people cannot access this wisdom readily. I good therapist doesn't give the answers, s/he helps the client to find them - - and to do that requires a lot of skill. I'm loving the course, learning a lot about people and about myself, and can't wait until I'm in a position to go out there and make a difference by helping others towards their own bottom line. Azeem >> All of which goes to prove the corrollary to Bob M. theory -- that most people who become psychotherapists do so in an effort to cure their own problems, which in most cases are worse than those of the patients they supposedly treat. I've no doubt that each of us would get much better in a 50-minute "Hejira" session with DR. Joni Mitchell, even if if co-session with Dr. Sid Mondegreen, than we would in a similar session with Azeem's future colleagues. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:50:55 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Therapy? NJC In a message dated 4/18/99 8:07:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: > All of which goes to prove the corrollary to Bob M. theory -- that most > people who become psychotherapists do so in an effort to cure their own > problems, which in most cases are worse than those of the patients they > supposedly treat. Talk about useless blanket statements! Ever consider that psychotherapists go into the field because they are in possession of the emotional intelligence required to help people figure out complex life problems? There are many psychotherapists who help people deal with daily struggles involving all types of brain disorders like depression, bipolar disorder, obsessive/compulsive disorder, etc. Some of these conditions require both medication from a psychiatrist and further treatment with a good therapist. I am not a therapist, I am a non-clinical social worker but my work puts me in touch with all types of mental health professionals. Let me tell you that there isn't a more "together" and dedicated group of human service professionals around. If what someone wants to do is cure their own problems, going into the field of psychotherapy would be the wrong thing to do as the emotional drain is immense on a therapist or on anyone who works with people around complex personal matters. Your post is so thoughtless as to be insulting to both those who practice in this field and those who benefit from it daily. Paul goes on to say: Show me someone who has been able to recover from serious life problems get better from listening to Hejira and I'll show you someone who looks younger from listening to Facelift. Good music, supportive family and friends, things like that help to heal us - yes - they do help. But a cure? How myopic! Gina ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #167 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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