From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #165 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, April 17 1999 Volume 04 : Number 165 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Burning My First Joni CD ["Eric Taylor" ] feminism and pc bullshit too (njc) [evian ] Re: (NOT) pc bullshit (NJC) ["Eric Taylor" ] the ultimate concert (sjc) [evian ] Re: PC (njc) [luvart@snet.net] Re: Joni songs ["P. Henry" ] Re: Burning My First Joni CD [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: the ultimate concert (sjc) [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Concert Extortion ["P. Henry" ] Re: Beyond PC (njc) [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: feminism and pc bullshit too (njc) [Ginamu@aol.com] ["Chuck EIsenhardt" ] PBS show re PC (NJC) [Dflahm@aol.com] Re: [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: pc bullshit (NJC) [Alan ] Re: Re[2]: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This (NJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Beyond PC (njc) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Burning My First Joni CD [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: the ultimate concert (sjc) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Beyond PC (njc) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Concert Extortion [CaTGirl627@aol.com] RE: BLUE on gold CD ["P. Henry" ] Blue on GOLD...whoohooo [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: feminism and pc bullshit too (njc) ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: pc stuff (NJC) [Alan ] Re: feminism and pc bullshit too (njc) ["Mark or Travis" ] RE: BLUE on gold CD (comparisons) ["P. Henry" ] RE: BLUE on gold CD (comparisons) ["P. Henry" ] RE: Re[2]: was 'Joni Concerts Should Be Like This (NJC)', now siberry, but related [patrick leader ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:31:48 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Burning My First Joni CD Tonight I am finally putting my CD-writer to the test by recording one song from every Joni CD - not an easy task because it's impossible to pick a favorite, among other things.... Here is what I ended up with: Night In The City Chelsea Morning Rainy Night House All I Want Woman Of Heart & Mind Down To You Blue (Live) The Jungle Line Coyote Overture - Cotton Avenue The Dry Cleaner From Des Moines Amelia / Pat's Solo (Live) Moon At The Window Fiction Lakota Night Ride Home Borderline Stay In Touch What should I title it? E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:59:30 -0600 From: evian Subject: feminism and pc bullshit too (njc) > Oh, I'm sorry but the feminist movement has alienated many, many people ALL > BY THEMSELVES and without much help from the right. Political correctness and > feminism are inventions of upper crust, overeducated whites.One thing that > group hasn't managed to do is win over the support of working class and poor > people, who are the majority and who bear the burdens daily of this > economically unjust society. Think about Betty Friedan and the origins of > American feminism!! Don't talk to a poor woman on welfare about feminism, > she's too busy fighting to keep food on the table, while the former president > of NOW is hard at work coining phrases like political correctness. There is > no injustice like economic injustice. It is the most insidious and hateful > crime of all. So...when the feminist movement has something to say which > speaks to women of all classes, I will listen, otherwise I trust that > movement about as much as I trust politicians. > But there IS a body of feminist theory written by non-white, non-middle class women. True, the movement may have been muddled down with Betty Friedan, et al, BUT there are numerous texts written by women of color, non-heterosexual women, disabled (or whatever the pc term of the month is) women, etc. Check out some of the works of Audre Lorde, Alice Walker's essays, Nancy Mairs (who, in her book of essays, PLAINTEXT, writes a great essay called "On Being a Cripple", which deals with the issue of naming, and how she defends the word cripple). Mairs also has another great book called, I think "Waist-High in the World: Life among the nondisabled". Yes, you will find, if you search out texts by women of these various backgrounds, a condemnation against the feminist movement for being exclusionary, but you will also find a body of work that draws on tenets of the feminist movement, and ways in which to somehow reconcile the exclusionary gaps in feminism. The third wave of the feminist movement is very much aware of the exclusionary roots of the movement, and many great theorists are trying to bridge the gap in the movement to include all women. Can this ever be done? Who knows... but I just had to say the movement has come a long way since Friedan, de Beuvoir, etc. I have nothing to offer the p.c. bullshit thread, but for those interested, there is a great book called "The Feminist Critique of Language", edited by Deborah Cameron. In it, we see the ways in which language plays a vital role in the construction of gender. I have problems with a lot of p.c. talk -- not as a whole, but in just the ways in which language is so... policed, I guess is the term I am looking for. I just finished teaching my students gender-neutral language, and while I feel that is very useful, I have a tough time with designations such as "African-American", etc. I just don't think this term cuts it. Do people of European ancestry announce themselves as "I am a Flemmish-American"? The African preface to "American" is just another term of labeling, and of accentuating difference... it seems to me that it is just another form of "othering". I just took a feminist poetry class, and the issue was brought up that our prof used the term "Lesbian Poet" in the syllabus for a particular poet. Again, the Lesbian preface was a way a "othering" the poet from the other poets on the class list, since most of the poems studied did not deal with the poet's sexuality. P.C. language is well-needed, but we mustn't forget that the terms we use, while we think they are more "appropriate", are nevertheless still used as a way of distinguishing difference from euro-centric norms. I too always have a hard time with words that are used by a certain group, but are not acceptable for others to use. It's almost like you have to know exactly when and where it is acceptable to use one word, and when not to. For example, my best friend is a lesbian, and she is always calling and joking and saying "get ready to hear another "dyke drama". Thus, we always joke about how her life is one big "dd" as she calls it. However, as we all know, the word has negative connotations too... So, the ambivilence surrounding words, and naming, seems to be miring us down. Ok, I have rambled long enough. Happy Saturday, y'all! Evian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 04:12:02 -0400 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: (NOT) pc bullshit (NJC) Debra Shea so articulately stated: <> As a newcomer one year ago I felt the same way Deborah Finora feels - why all this NJC?! BTW, WELCOME DEBORAH! What I soon discovered is that Joni's subjects evoke passionate feelings from all sides (yes there are more than two).... Sometimes we get carried away but the discussion always soon returns to our love for everything Joni. E.T. NP: TTT (Suddenly I'm starting to like Lead Balloon) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:26:26 -0600 From: evian Subject: the ultimate concert (sjc) Well, since I am on a big Cheryl Wheeler kick at the moment, the perfect concert would be having Cheryl down here in my basement, playing while we down a couple of bottles of wine, then having Joni come on over so I have someone to sit with while I go outside and smoke (I would have told her to bring some cheap American smokes with her), and Stevie Nicks can come and twirl around for us... I would make sure to have plenty of chiffon around! Then we would call up Lindsey to come play to give Cheryl a break, and Stevie and I would make crank calls over to Mick Fleetwood (and collapse in a fit of laughter). When the wine was done, I would break out the ice crusher, and make some margaritas and cook up a mess of food, and Joni and I would do a good ole Saskatchewan Red River Jig, while Cheryl stomped and played the spoons. Joni would decide to paint a mural on my wall down here, and I would get to the bottom of the Hejira-penis thing when she was good and liquored up. Cheryl would go into impersonations of everyone, and damn, she would have us rolling with a good Bjork imitation "I brought my little "Jetto-blaster..." After numerous calls to Myrtle, asking her if it was proper for Joni to crash in my bedroom basement, and after Stevie suddenly flew "up the stairs and down the hall...not to find an answer, just to hear the call of a nightbird singing come away, come away", we all would go out on my deck, have one last cigarette, watch the summer sun slowly rise, while Cheryl wrote a song about the night that would go something like: Sitting on the deck, smoking a cigarette, with my good ole friends, Damn, mosquito on my contact lens... goddamn Saskatchewan! (Ok, I ain't no song writer... this is fantasy, damnit!) Then the nosy neighbor would be yelling out his window, and Cheryl would go and send Lindsey over to be their houseboy for the day to shut him up. Then we would retire for the evening, and Cheryl would joke to me and my wife about not wanting to hear the "Crazy cries of love", and I would mutter, "I am soo frigging drunk, don't worry about it honey!" We would all dose up on Motrin, rolaids, take individual gallons of culligan water to bed, and I would tell them the secret of how to jiggle the toilet handle down here so that the damn thing doesn't run all night. Then I would show them to their rooms, and run like hell to the computer to post this all! Ok, so it would never happen.. but hell, it was fun to write, anyway! Good night! Evian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 22:43:45 -0400 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: PC (njc) At 03:10 PM 4/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >Catman responded to CatGirl: > ><different! It has not the same message. The same as when a gay person refers >to another as a fag or queer or poof or whatever. A str8 person doing it is >offensive the same as a white person using the word nigger. It is really >simple to understand.>> > > This makes absolutely NO sense and gives me a huge headache! That gays >call other gays "fag" and blacks call other blacks "nigga" is a sickening >double standard for which there is no excuse! > Sexually & racially correct, > E.T. Well! I just have to inject some humor here .... can I call my grandma a "cracker" then?? And given that is she then a "gram-cracker"??? Sorry ... Heather ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 03:18:07 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Joni songs CaTGirl627@aol.com writes: << .I started out on an old Harmony-remember them? >> then Terry writes: >Hey Catgirl! That was my first guitar as well- got it when I was 12 and holy cow, did those strings make mincemeat of my fingers...> oh yeah, I remember those harmony guitars... those were the NICE ones! you shoulda seen my stella! LoL! pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 08:09:58 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Burning My First Joni CD In a message dated 4/17/99 2:32:51 AM Central Daylight Time, ewwtaylor@adelphia.net writes: << What should I title it? >> Why, "Taylor-Made" of course!! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 08:14:27 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: the ultimate concert (sjc) In a message dated 4/17/99 3:31:41 AM Central Daylight Time, evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: << Ok, so it would never happen.. but hell, it was fun to write, anyway! >> And very fun to read as well!! I laughed as loud as I could with all my "borders snoring under crisp white sheets of curfew"...:~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 04:34:43 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Concert Extortion jerry writes: << I have the poster by Amsel from Bette Midler's first tour. Tickets were 4.00, 4.50, and 5.00. I have my ticket stub from seeing Barbra Striesand in Funny Girl: 6.50. Guess what it would cost to see them today?!!>> marcel wrote: > The coming woodstock event has a price tag of $250. Jeez I remember seeing Pink Floyd, and Big Brother for $7.50. I saw Yes, Frampton, Garry Write and the Pousette Dart Band for a whopping 10.50 at JFK in Philly. Back then we thought that was a ton of money. Seeing a show over 10.00 was insane back then.> Catgirl wrote: >those were the days my friends, we thought they never end....> ok, here's one for ya: as I posted once before I have a copy of an ad for Joni that, it so happens, I personally placed in the port huron times herald, where the admission price is $1.25... pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 08:36:56 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Beyond PC (njc) In a message dated 4/17/99 1:48:50 AM Central Daylight Time, ewwtaylor@adelphia.net writes: << If we could shrink Earth's population to 100 people it would look like this: >> 30 would like Hejira best 30 would like FTR best 10 would like Blue best 5 would like something else the best The rest couldn't pick one Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 08:52:10 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: feminism and pc bullshit too (njc) In a message dated 4/17/99 4:03:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: > But there IS a body of feminist theory written by non-white, non-middle > class women. Evian, Thank you so much for your great post. It was not rambling, it was absolutely a pleasure for me to read. I guess I was thinking of the NOW type feminist movement and you've reminded me to look further, which I should have known to do on my own in the first place. The only name you mention that I am aware of is Alice Walker. I don't think of her as a feminist (though of course she is!) because I've allowed the upper middle class white women to define feminism for me, and that is my own problem. I'm so glad you responded. You've helped to broaden my view and I am really grateful. Take care, Gina NP: Dulce Pontes - Lagrimas (Portuguese Fado music) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:39:10 -0400 From: "Chuck EIsenhardt" Subject: Hi, J-Listers, old and new! I was browsing a digest today (so rare these days!) and saw a reference to the tape trees...I laughed out loud when the entry referred to #4 ... "I might be interested but I'm not sure about the content'" Correct! The content of tree #4 is all mortals like *us*, singing and playing Jonisongs, (or in some cases, dying trying)... it's the list tribute tape to herself. This tape saw general release around January 98 after at least a year in the cooker...and you know, it's probably the smart thing to be 'unsure' about the content!! From my notes, as I was guilty of assembling this tape, the content is: Night in the City - Leslie Mixon and Friends - a great vocal read, pro studio and great players Both Sides Now - Les - a beautiful guitar instrumental Moon at my Window - Marian Russell- Ahhh!! The Viennese Diva! Carey - Leslie - the same Woodstock- WallyB - a must-have! Vintage Wall-ster. Rainy Night House - me, in my project studio Black Crow - Bry Thomas (before he was famous) Check his new CD release... A Case of You - Tom Ross and his 3-year old daughter Emerelda on vocals - exquisite! Free Man in Paris - Tom again, in 7/4 time Refuge of the Roads - SueMac, Ms Etch-a-Sketch, shows her tabs Urge for going - me from 1968, live on Cape Cod-only half the tree included this fragment... Amelia - Pat Hillis (Pat where have you gone?) Nice read Radio - Lori Century (an expat now in Barcelona - a great jazz singer) Morning Morgantown - Terry Matlen's one-girl band - I LOVE this recording! All I Want - Julie Z. Webb and friend Monica (Julie, you can always come back, you know) Gallery - Marsha Doyle, a songparody reflecting on the list itself Cool Water - Guy Brown, a great lounge-y home studio production, including drips! Coyote - Wally K...Hear Wally all the way from Tierra del Fuego, or wherever... Willy - a guitar instrumental by Jim McCarthy, a slacker guitar-playing College guy Sunny Sunday - Bill Dollinger (need I say more?) Impossible Dreamer - Sue Mac once again shows off her tabs Magdalene Laundries - Pat Hillis -- I love this version - i can't hear Joni's without thinking of it Case - Lori Century - just wonderful Dreamland - Sherelle Smith - just Sherelle snapping her fingers, and blowing us away Cherokee Louise- Marian Russell - in waltz time - intimate and beautiful Joni's Daughter - an original by Bry Thomas, BEFORE the fact, yet! Pork Pie Hat - Lori with nice jazz bass and guitar backup Scarlet Conquering - Guy Brown again - sultry lounge reading Night Ride Home - TerryM - you can almost hear the hoofbeats (hoofbeats?) a personal fav. Roses Blue -Pat Hillis, again, a nice cover from a lifelong Joni archivist Hissing - Sherelle - again acapella, but who could care... Otis and Marlena - Bill Dolliger --it'll never be the same for me again... Both Sides Now - Lori - this is really nice...I hope Lori returns to the list someday... Dry Cleaner - Lori again with the backing musicians from Espana Pork Pie Hat - Tom Ross..an extended instrumental, I think- improv 101 Well, how can you live without TT#4? The quality of these takes vary widely from selection to selection. Some were studio jobs, many were done with home recorders and whatever. All are listenable and many of them are amazing. *Because we're JMDL! I know of two DAT copies out there in listland, and I have one too. Les and I fed the primary branches and while I can't recall who they were I think I have that info tucked away somewhere. I'm not exactly volunteering to mass-mail this tape, (because I really got burned out on that) tho perhaps a few of the branches might come forth and answer requests...I will reproduce my DAT's for anyone who wants to further distribute this material. I also have the original cassette inserts so contact me if you need 'em... Now playing: TT#4 Chuck Eisenhardt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:28:54 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: PBS show re PC (NJC) The Television section of the Saturday NY TIMES previewed a 3-part series debuting Sunday at 1 pm on PBS (in NYC area, that is). The Sunday installment is incendiarily titled "THE WAR ON BOYS" and will apparently focus on the disadvantaging, harrassment, perhaps abuse being endured by young males-presumably in America. NYT implied (or I inferred) that there is a palpable conservative (pro "family values" agenda discernible to the paper's previewer. LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:22:32 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: In a message dated 4/17/99 9:41:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chucke@tiac.net writes: << Rainy Night House - me, in my project studio >> ...which is one of my all time favs on the tape- a haunting, moving take on RNH. Chuck, you are being too humble! Take a bow! Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:45:11 -0500 From: Alan Subject: Re: pc bullshit (NJC) Debborah wrote: > This is my first post to the JMDL and after reading several digests > with > wonderful information about her musical legacy, insights into her > lyrics, > and, indeed, just the type of conversant knowledge one hopes to gain > by > subscribing to such a digest, I have become quite dismayed to see > I beg you all, please limit the bulk of comments to Joni and her > incredible ability to entrance us all by... Welcome Debborah, As I'm sure you've discovered by now, this is a rather sore, and sometimes unwelcome, subject. Les has recently added a method which will delete all the posts marked (NJC) (no joni content), which you may want try. But I, for one, would not be interested in it. My initial delight at discovering this whole community of Joni fans (I had only ever met one) was ever further enhanced when I discovered that, for the most part, I just love the way so many of the people on this list think! On almost any subject (I would, however, be very careful about religion and sexual orientation... on those two subjects, I don't believe there is anything that can be said which somebody won't take exception to.), you will not find a more thoughtful, insightful, and sensitive group of people anywhere. My life is so crazy busy, I probably only find time to post once a month or so, but I try to read the digests as often as possible, and I almost always feel like I gain something from it. I hope you do too. Alan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:27:44 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This (NJC) In a message dated 4/16/99 10:41:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: > If you could > have a dream concert who (besides Joni) would you have play and where would > you have it and what would you be willing to pay in todays dollars ??. > marcel > deste. Nice thread. I think I would love something truly spectacular such as a multimedia extravaganza which would include Peter Gabriel, Kate Bush , Laurie Anderson and Lou Reed. I would want it to include poetry reading as well as the wildest music and visuals imaginable and I would want it to be in London but I don't know where because I've never been there. Peter Gabriel wrote a song called Mercy Street which is on his So album. It's about my favorite mad poet Anne Sexton. I'd love to hear Peter recite some of her work with some musical sort of accompaniment (Anne used to read poems backed up by a jazz band called Her Kind - it was actually Anne Sexton and Her Kind). Peter's not a jazz guy but I'll bet he could come up something really cool as a tribute to Anne Sexton. I long to be totally blown away by art, poetry and rock and roll. Lou Reed and Laurie Anderson could some really amazing stuff related to the work of William Burroughs. Maybe Andy Warhol's work could slip in there somewhere. I'm not a big fan of his, but it would fit. I would not need food. I would be too much in awe to eat. I probably wouldn't eat for days, in fact. In thinking about whether I would want to meet any of them and chat...nope. Too unapproachable, I suspect. Might ruin the experience. Including the flight to London, this would be pricey. And since it will never happen, the price is right. No high mark up on fantasies. Thanks to Evian for inspiring this. His fantasy concert was such a treat to read!! And also to Marcel for starting the thread. Gina NP: Don't Give Up (with Kate Bush) from So (when is Peter's album coming out?) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:30:00 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Beyond PC (njc) In a message dated 4/17/1999 2:48:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ewwtaylor@adelphia.net writes: << What this proves to me is a serious need for better education! When we get done blowing each other to bits over stupid ethnic differences, who thinks spending 1% of our common wealth to provide everyone with a computer is a bad idea? (Actually this was Buckminster Fuller's idea & the man is still so far ahead of his time....) E.T. >> I have seen something like this befor. In the scheme of things, we should consider ourselves rather lucky that we have opportunities like being on line or even having a computer. Catgirl NP:Sometimes God Smiles* The young persons guide to discipline vol.2 *- On the approach of doubt. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:32:07 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Burning My First Joni CD In a message dated 4/17/1999 3:32:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ewwtaylor@adelphia.net writes: << song from every Joni CD - not an easy task because it's impossible to pick a favorite, among other things.... Here is what I ended up with: Night In The City Chelsea Morning Rainy Night House All I Want Woman Of Heart & Mind Down To You Blue (Live) The Jungle Line Coyote Overture - Cotton Avenue The Dry Cleaner From Des Moines Amelia / Pat's Solo (Live) Moon At The Window Fiction Lakota Night Ride Home Borderline Stay In Touch What should I title it? E.T. >> How about *ET takes on Joni*..... Catgirl ((((smiling)))))) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:39:35 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: the ultimate concert (sjc) In a message dated 4/17/1999 4:31:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: << computer to post this all! Ok, so it would never happen.. but hell, it was fun to write, anyway! Good night! Evian >>What a great evening! I want to come along and bring Pat Metheny and Jaco (if he was alive) but no drugs, just liquor and maybe some smoke. You had me thinking aobut what a GREAT night that would be. I would never want it to end! Catgirl NP: Discipline Vol.2 -Prism ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:46:31 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Beyond PC (njc) In a message dated 4/17/1999 8:39:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RMuRocks@aol.com writes: << If we could shrink Earth's population to 100 people it would look like this: >> 30 would like Hejira best 30 would like FTR best 10 would like Blue best 5 would like something else the best The rest couldn't pick one Bob >> Great Point Bob. And funny too! Catgirl NP Discpline vol. 2 Easy money BTW, picked up this grea t CD for 5.99 at circuit city. They had vol.1 there for 4.99 which I already got. They are great CD to get if you know nothing about King Crimson. A must for newbies! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:48:51 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Concert Extortion In a message dated 4/17/1999 9:02:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: << jerry writes: << I have the poster by Amsel from Bette Midler's first tour. Tickets were 4.00, 4.50, and 5.00. I have my ticket stub from seeing Barbra Striesand in Funny Girl: 6.50. Guess what it would cost to see them today?!!>> marcel wrote: > The coming woodstock event has a price tag of $250. Jeez I remember seeing Pink Floyd, and Big Brother for $7.50. I saw Yes, Frampton, Garry Write and the Pousette Dart Band for a whopping 10.50 at JFK in Philly. Back then we thought that was a ton of money. Seeing a show over 10.00 was insane back then.> Catgirl wrote: >those were the days my friends, we thought they never end....> ok, here's one for ya: as I posted once before I have a copy of an ad for Joni that, it so happens, I personally placed in the port huron times herald, where the admission price is $1.25... pat >>I will look for my Joni stub from 79' to see what the price was. I know it was not 1.25....... Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 08:58:08 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: BLUE on gold CD wallyK wrote >I received my Gold Blue yesterday and I was soooo disappointed. It doesn't sound a bit better than my old CD copy.> I did a little experiment of my own and sampled the two disks from the realaudio exerpts on cd-universe over my little built in computer speaker and I could hear a definate difference even there! pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:59:10 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Blue on GOLD...whoohooo Greetings Friends, I just got the gold blue CD and the limited edition of NRH. NRH has some very cool pictures in it for those who do not have it. You might want to consider getting it. The songbook too, has some very cool picture as well as the video! I am a little nervous about playing BLUE. I am hoping the qyuality will be more noticable then on CAS. Does anybody know if a songbook came out for TTT? I called around but I don't think this has happened. You really need to get them right away or you lose out! Also, NO one here got a Van Gogh ear? That really surprises me. Come on, NO ONE got an ear? Maybe it was a publicity stunt. But I can't see that happening either! Catgirl...Who has an EAR???? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:16:47 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: feminism and pc bullshit too (njc) - ----- Original Message ----- From: evian I have a tough time with > designations such as "African-American", etc. I just don't think this > term cuts it. Do people of European ancestry announce themselves as "I > am a Flemmish-American"? The African preface to "American" is just > another term of labeling, and of accentuating difference... it seems to > me that it is just another form of "othering". I've been staying out of the whole pc discussion so far but this struck a chord with me. It puzzles me that in the country that was once referred to as 'the great melting pot' we feel the need to draw so many distinctions between people of varying ancestries. I don't refer to myself as a Scotch-Irish-German American. Why can't we all be just plain old Americans? I work with a man whose parents were born in China. His Asian ancestry is obvious from his coloring and facial features. But he speaks very little Chinese and judging by his attitudes & speech he is very much an American. He was born here and is a US citizen. Why should I refer to him as Asian? He wasn't born in Asia. He's an American. I saw a TV program where Laura Love was talking to a reporter about her cd 'Octoroon'. She was explaining the meaning of the word and telling the interviewer that at one time this term would have been applied to her no matter how remote or how miniscule her African ancestry was. What gets me is that, although the term is obsolete, we still apply the same standard to this very day. As much as I try to be color blind and think of the variety of humans that pass through my life as just people, when I see someone with a certain complexion and/or type of features, I don't think of them as white or part-white. Don't get me wrong. I don't attach any kind of implied superiority to any race one way or the other. But it seems to me that this a blatant form of 'othering'. It is so hard to unlearn some attitudes that you've heard expressed for as long as you can remember. I understand the need for people to preserve their cultural heritage. I'm all for diversity. But we need to get past the importance we attach to superficial differences such as skin color. When I think of who and what I am in the grand scheme of things, I try to think of myself as a human being, first and foremost before anything else. My racial/class origins come much further down the list. I try to think of other people in the same way but it's an ongoing struggle to do so. I think most everybody on this list is sensitive to cultural differences and educated enough to know how to communicate without being offensive to other people's sensibilities. So being 'pc' in this group is a matter of using our common sense with regard to our use of language. In this world of mass communication one would think that the need for common courtesy and respect in human interaction would be common knowledge. Unfortunately it is not. And even more unfortunately, there are far too many people who don't care to be enlightened and refuse to let go of their hateful, narrow-minded attitudes. There is a need for continuing education. But the term 'politically correct' has taken on such a negative connotation for reasons that other people have already enumerated that it seems to me the intent behind it has become obscured and trivialized. (And I don't know if either the 'far right' or the 'far left' is responsible for this and don't see how that is relevant.) We don't need to be told to label blind people as 'visually impaired'. We do need to continue to fight against stereotypes and misconceptions about our fellow human beings and the evil words and actions that result from them. And,(for me anyway), this is a battle that needs to be fought both within ourselves and in the world around us every day. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:20:10 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Beyond PC (njc) In the scheme of things, we should > consider ourselves rather lucky that we have opportunities like being on line > or even having a computer. In the scheme of things we should consider ourselves lucky for having a roof over our heads and food in our bellies. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:23:54 -0500 From: Alan Subject: Re: pc stuff (NJC) Most excellent post, Winfried. (For those of you who are tired of this subject; delete, delete, delete!) > Still, I don't understand why people are focusing so much on language > rather > than addressing the underlying attitudes, which are the real problem. Yes, you're right. But I think the point is that language and thought are so intertwined; you can't have one without the other. Therefore, offensive language is a flag for offensive thought. I certainly agree that changing the language doesn't change the thought, but it is at least a starting point. I remember, as a teenager, when I would hear somebody make a comment which was racist or sexist, wondering why they weren't at least embarrassed to exposed such thoughts, and then realizing that they were just too ignorant to even realize that they were being offensive. So, I think the whole pc movement is an attempt to raise the awareness of insensitive language, and at the same time, raise awareness of the thought behind it. The major problem with pc, is the issue of who defines what is and is not pc? Simply by drawing these borderlines (hey, does that qualify as Joni content? ;-) there are political implications, and a big part of the anti-pc backlash stems from the fact that most of the pc issues are raised by those on the political left. Some pc issues are more valid than others, and I'm afraid there is a counter movement which would throw the baby out with the bath. > Recent internal police statistics in Germany show that in some areas > of severe > criminality the percentage of non-German perpetrators lies at 60 % and > above. > IMO this shows that we weren't very successful in integrating > immigrants into > our society. Of course, the racists interpret them in a "see -- > they're all > scum, let's get rid of them" way. This has led the social democratic > state > governments to forbid making these statistics available to the public. > In some > cases, the data mustn't even be assembled anymore. > This is where we are today: Reality itself has become politically > incorrect > and therefore needs to be suppressed! Very interesting. In this country, we also have a disproportionate number of minorities committing crime. And the racist interpretation you mention occurs here as well. But probably even more vocal, are those who interpret the statistics as "proof" that the criminal justice system discriminates unfairly against them (sometimes, unfortunately, they are correct; but not, I believe, for the most part). Therefore, any attempt to withhold the statistics would be interpreted here as further proof of a conspiracy to oppress the minorities. I believe, as you mentioned, that civilization's best hope for solving most problems, be it racism, crime, overpopulation, etc... is to increase education. Just out of curiosity, here we have a growing number who are crying out that we are putting too many people through college, that a college degree is becoming just another credential, and this is cheapening its value. Do you hear that attitude in Germany as well? Of course, from an economic perspective (I'm an economist - system analyst) they are somewhat correct; an increase in the supply of anything will decrease its price/value unless there is a corresponding increase in demand. But given the choice between an ignorant world and an enlightened one, I'll take the latter (not in my lifetime, I'm afraid!). My personal opinion is this, "too many college graduates," attitude is just another facet of the "I've got mine, and I don't want to share" attitude that seems to pervade the right wing. (yes, I know, that comment is not pc; oh well!) Alan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:46:09 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: feminism and pc bullshit too (njc) Why can't we all > be just plain old Americans? I got to thinking about this statement in the context of our international community here on the JMDL. I certainly didn't mean to imply that we should 'all be Americans' or that we all are. I was speaking in the context of the US only. I apologize for any implied arrogance that may have been communicated. (How's that for being pc?) Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:59:18 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: pc stuff (NJC) patrick, not disagreeing with you nor do I want to debate this issue with you any more than it has already been discussed... it's just that, while it may be that the fellow was regretful and honorable in all things, I think the original point was lost in this mega-debate and that is/was, as I see it, that one can't even use the english language properly (ie: 'niggardly') without some pc police type of thinking/influence rearing up... and that is ridiculus! (my $.02) pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:09:09 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: BLUE on gold CD (comparisons) wallyK wrote >I received my Gold Blue yesterday and I was soooo disappointed. It doesn't sound a bit better than my old CD copy.> I did a little experiment of my own and sampled the two disks from the realaudio exerpts on cd-universe over my little built in computer speaker and I could hear a definite difference even there! pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:23:51 -0800 From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: BLUE on gold CD (comparisons) wallyK wrote >I received my Gold Blue yesterday and I was soooo disappointed. It doesn't sound a bit better than my old CD copy.> I did a little experiment of my own and sampled the two disks from the realaudio clips on cd-universe over my little built-in computer speaker and I could hear a definite difference even there! pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:44:30 -0400 From: patrick leader Subject: RE: Re[2]: was 'Joni Concerts Should Be Like This (NJC)', now siberry, but related hey gina, are you familiar with jane siberry? i think you would love her work. on her last album for reprise, 'maria', there is a 20 minute song/poem/symphony thing called 'oh my my'. the last time i saw her (in a show with janis ian and cheryl wheeler, to bring in another thread) she did a 14 or so minute version, dropped completely out of music for long spoken word sections that incorporated other poems of hers, etc. every time i've seen her she's done poems as well as songs. to tie in a third thread (oh my god, macrame is back!) she's lately been doing salon-type concerts kind of like our fantasy here. dougie, wolfebite, did one here in december. the format was this: a coctail party on friday evening, an afternoon writing workshop on saturday and then later a solo concert and dinner. it sounded remarkable, and fun. cost was $200. jane left reprise and started her own label and it's turned out to be tough, but these salon concerts have turned out to be lucrative and i think she's enjoyed being so close to her audience. (she sends an e-newsletter out every 2 months or so.) jane gets talked up every couple of months on this list, a lot of us are fans. if anyone here has been on the fence, when you buy, please, please buy direct from her. her site is http://www.sheeba.ca. there's a phone number and fax on the site. you'll probably pay more than you would elsewhere, but a MUCH larger portion of the money goes to her. you may even have her take your order yourself, as she did mine. i'd recommend in this order: maria (1995)- very jazzy, mostly just piano, trumpet, and drums (brian blade!) and that incredible symphony at the end. one my favorite albums on the planet. when i was a boy (1993)- more synthy, more rhythmic, a very beautiful album in a completely different way. the somewhat artificial drum programming set against the tons of mystical imagery works, and one quiet little piano song 'at the beginning of time' is based on one of the most beautiful and haunting images i've ever heard, souls, floating in little boats in the dark, waiting to be born. bound by the beauty (1989) is also a very fine album. i don't have most of her earlier ones. of the sheeba releases, none of which have been traditional studio albums, 'child' (1997) is a double live cd of her christmas concert that i love. patrick npimh - maria ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:53:26 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Fwd: [JoniMitchellfans] Re: Fwd: Catgirls list...... - --part1_3d033e71.244a40b6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another Joni fan strikes again! - --part1_3d033e71.244a40b6_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-za03.mx.aol.com (rly-za03.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.99]) by air-za01.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:33:26 -0400 Received: from onelist.com (pop.onelist.com [209.207.164.211]) by rly-za03.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id PAA16430 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 32618 invoked by alias); 17 Apr 1999 20:09:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 32609 invoked from network); 17 Apr 1999 20:09:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo16.mx.aol.com) (198.81.17.6) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 17 Apr 1999 20:09:51 -0000 Received: from Mewsikmann@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id hKXAa27251 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:32:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Mewsikmann@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:32:18 EDT To: JoniMitchellfans@onelist.com X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Mailing-List: list JoniMitchellfans@onelist.com; contact JoniMitchellfans-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list JoniMitchellfans@onelist.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: JoniMitchellfans@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [JoniMitchellfans] Re: Fwd: [onelist_moderators] Scheduled Maintenance From: Mewsikmann@aol.com The first Joni album I was familiar with was Laides of the Canyon. My favorites from that are Conversation and Rainy Night House. She was writing really strong melodies at that time, as well as interesting chord progressions. Both of those songs could be sung a capella and sound great, or could be played instrumentally without the melody and still sound very interesting. But my favorite, after hearing all of her albums, is Hejira. Just as she sings "now I am returning to myself," I am always returning to that one. It's hard to pick your favorite album or song, but a good measure is which ones get the heaviest rotation over the years. Hejira's the one, partly because it sounds so great. Her guitar has never sounded more gorgeous. And Jaco Pastorius is phenomenal. You know that rock n roll band in Heaven? With Hendrix and everyone else who's died? Their bass player is Jaco. Everyone else can only look on with envy. One of the problems with her later albums in the 80's is the lack of Jaco. Night Ride Home and TTT don't have that same spark flying out of the rhythm section. Not that it's fair to compare Larry Klein to Jaco. But Hejira was such a pinnacle, with the right combination of music, lyrics, musicianship, and recording sound, that it's almost impossible to reach again. It's her masterpiece. Refuge of the Roads and Hejira are really powerful songs, and Jaco's bass is perfect. Coyote has a great rhythm, and Jaco's harmonics are as cool as could be. (On The Last Waltz, when Joni launches in Coyote, the big grins on the faces of the Band members says it all. You can tell they're thrilled to not only be backing up Joni, but to be playing such a cool song. And while most of the other guest performers that night were playing old, classic songs, Joni was playing something brand new. Hejira had just been released that same month.) Amelia has become Joni's signature song. She still plays it today. "Maybe I've never really loved. I guess that is the truth. I've spent my whole life in clouds at icy altitudes." I guess those lines still ring true? I love the songs and I love the sound of Hejira. It bears up to repeated listenings. One of the things I've noticed about Joni's recordings is that even the early ones still sound great, by today's standards. Her acoustic guitar sounds better than on a lot of other records made at the same time. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Did you know that we add over 1,000 new e-mail communities every day? http://www.ONElist.com Explore a new hobby, discover a new friend, laugh at a new joke! - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ We are stardust, we are golden, and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden....... - --part1_3d033e71.244a40b6_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:01:35 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: BLUE on gold CD (comparisons) I was listening to Blue on my CD player in the car. When *Last time I saw Richard* came on a noticed some clicking noise in the piano intro. Boy, was I mad. I mean I spend more money on this Cd then the original and yet it had noise on it?!?!? Well, when I got home I listened to it again on my sterio..it was still there. I then pulled out my other CD, and it was still there. Then I pulled out my Jap. import, and guess what?.. it was still there. Apparently the original master tapes had some backround noise on them. If you notice on the first few bars of the piano, there are these little "clicking" sounds. The CD does sound really great though. I don't know if I truly notice any profound difference but I am still glad I got it. I am mad (yet again) that the NRH cd I got has a sticker on the front of the Cardboard cover. I figured it would just peel right off...think again! Now I have this great CD with scraps of white sticky stuff on the front....so much for my Limited edition collectors item! Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:21:17 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Remastered CDs (NJC) From: j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 04:16:48 +0300 > >Today it depends more on the recording > itself and how the (re-)mastering is done after that. To give an > example, I bought two remasters yesterday. Duran Duran's (don't shoot > me) "Greatest" (1998) is remastered, but the same tracks sound better on > "Decade" (1989) which was not remastered. ABC's (don't shoot me, please) > "The Lexicon Of Love" remaster is radically improved from the original > 80's CD. So you never know.< > > I have the remastered version of the Dire Straits' album "Love Over Gold" > (1984/1996). The sound is absolutely mind-blowing. > > This may be a highly speculative, cliche-influenced point, but I have a > feeling that recordings of niche-music for smaller labels have a greater > likelihood of sonic excellence than the chart-oriented mass productions. > This can be true. Small/independent labels might be more concerned than major labels about the sound. They might be able to oversee the manufacturing process more closely than if they were part of a big organisation and make adjustments when needed. If anyone even cares, I relistened to those DD CD's and the remaster is not actually worse than the earlier CD. The overall sound is probably a little better but the treble end is probably a bit too harsh and unnatural. - --jussi NP: Rufus/Chaka "Masterjam" ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #165 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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