From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #163 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, April 16 1999 Volume 04 : Number 163 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) [FredNow@aol.com] RE: VLJC -alternate tunings ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: The Latest PC replies, vol. 1 (NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] re: PC (njc) [Bill Dollinger ] Re: The Latest PC replies, vol. 1 (NJC) [Bill Dollinger ] Winfried (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Concert Ideals ... (NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] Re[4]: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.co] Re: Re[4]: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This (NJC) [Bill Dollinger ] RE: Re: PC (njc) [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Re: PCness on a lighter side ( NJC ) [catman ] Re: PC (njc) [catman ] Re: Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) [catman ] See You Later [Phyliss Ward ] Re: PCness on a lighter side ( NJC ) [jan gyn ] RE: Re: The Latest PC replies, vol. 1 (NJC) [mwyarbro@zzapp.org] Re: pc bullshit [Bounced Message ] Re: PC (njc) [Bounced Message ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 03:41:51 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) "Winfried H¸hn" wrote: >>I'm listening on CNN to Clinton's remarks on Kosovo. Say about his >>personal integrity what you will -- the man is a great politician! >>And, quite untypically for Americans, he understands what's going >>outside of the U.S. If only our European/German leaders had at least >>half of his political talent and insight -- and power! *Sigh* I'm not so sure ... here is an alternate view from Michael Moore: ======================================================== The Bombing of Kosovo 4/15/99 Dear friends, As we file our taxes today (procrastinators, all of us), and we sign our names on the bottom line of our 1040 tax forms, perhaps we should ask ourselves if what we are doing is signing a death warrant for people we don't even know. Because each night, for the past three weeks, millions of dollars of bombs and missiles -- that you and I paid for -- are being used to kill people in the former Yugoslavia. That makes you and I culpable in their execution. Did you personally know any of the people who were killed in the village of Pristina (capitol of Kosovo) last week? Had they ever done anything to harm you? How about the children who were blown to bits in the building in Prizren? Had they ever threatened you in any way to cause you to have to kill them in self-defense? Perhaps you had met the people who were incinerated by us on the train to Belgrade, Yugoslavia. Can you tell me why you would want to take their lives? I'm sorry to personalize it in this way, but this slaughter is being conducted in your name and mine, and I'll tell you, this is blood I don't want on my hands. We will all have to answer for this some day, and Iwould like to be able to say that I did not sit by silently while this wasbeing done, and that I did whatever I could to stop it as soon as possible. Right about now, some of you, with all good intentions, are saying, "But, Mike, this Milosevic guy is a madman. He's committing genocide. We should not ignore this as we did the Holocaust in the early days of World War II. He must be stopped by any means necessary." Yes, he must be stopped. But bombing the people of his country is exactly the wrong way to stop him. In fact, it has only strengthened him. There was a growing dissident movement in Yugoslavia before the war, and every letter I get from these brave souls tells me that the bombing has set back their struggle so incredibly far that they worry they will now be stuck with Milosevic for a long time. They are pleading with us to stop it. The bombing has made him a hero at a time when nearly half of the country was very unhappy with his leadership. We did not consult the anti-Milosevic movement in advance to see if they would like our help in the form of 10,000 bombing sorties. We just went off half-cocked on our own, and started killing the very people we were claiming to save. Anyone who remembers Vietnam knows that sordid logic and insanity. We have strengthened Milosevic and destroyed his opposition. Happy now? Friends, Milosevic must be stopped, BUT BOMBING DOES NOT WORK. It has never worked. It didn't work in Iraq -- Sadaam is still in charge no matter how many bombs we have dropped. It didn't work in Vietnam. During the Christmas week of 1972, the amount of bombs we dropped on North Vietnam was equal to half the tonnage of bombs dropped on England during World War II.That didn't work, so one month later, we gave in and announced our complete pull-out. What a sad, pathetic man Bill Clinton is. Though many have criticized him for dodging the draft, I actually admired the fact that he refused to go and kill Vietnamese. Not all of us from the working class had that luxury, and tens of thousands of our brothers died for absolutely no damn reason. For this "anti-war" President to order such a misguided, ruthless -- and, yes, cowardly -- attack from the air is a disappointment of massive proportions. Bombing didn't work for either side in World War II. Hitler bombed Britain mercilessly for years, but it didn't work. Our bombing did nothing to save the lives of 6 million Jews, 4 million Catholics, Gypsies and other "undesirables," and 20 million Russians. Our bombs couldn't even take out one German machine-gun on top of the cliffs overlooking the beaches of Normandy. World War II was won because my father and uncles and your fathers and grandfathers risked their lives pouring out of amphibious carriers like sitting ducks on a beach, crawling through the dead bodies of their friends and fellow soldiers, and climbing up those cliffs in France and Italy and the South Pacific. Over a quarter of a million of them, including my uncle, died doing this. And that, my friends, as some are known to say, is the awful truth. If genocide is really taking place, the only way to stop it militarily is to send our children in there and accept the fact that thousands upon thousands of them will be killed. Are you willing to do that? Or better yet, this is the question I always ask myself when confronted with whether or not Ishould ever support a war: Do I believe strongly enough in this cause that I MYSELF would be willing to risk my life to go over there and square it with my conscience to kill Yugoslavians. I have a feeling I know the answer most of you would give. We know Clinton is lying to us. We know there is no "Holocaust" taking place. What IS happening is that two groups of people are carrying on their centuries-old mission to annihilate each other. The Kosovo Liberation Army announced their intentions to rid Kosovo of all Serbs (the Albanians are the majority in Kosovo, the Serbs, a minority). That's all a nutcase like Milosevic needed to justify his campaign to rid Kosovo of all Albanians. This is true madness and a lot of innocent people are losing their lives in the process. So here's my solution: 1) Stop the bombing immediately. 2) Get the Russians, whom the Serbs trust, in there to be the peacekeepers and help resolved the situation. No American or NATO forces on Kosovo soil. Russia can do this in spite of the wanker in charge, Mr. Yeltsin. The Serbs will let them in. Let's get them on board instead of alienating the Russians even further. 3) Let the Orthodox Church play a major role in bringing about the peace. The Serbs are mostly Orthodox and a strong move by its Patriarch could do a lot to ending all the bloodshed. Look, I'm not an expert on any of this. I'm mostly busy getting my show on the air each week. But as I sign my 1040 today, I must admit that I am partly responsible, as an American citizen who pays his taxes, for this war and I must encourage whoever I can to join me in demanding an end to this now. Last fall, many of us participated in an incredible act of protest by throwing a bunch of right-wingers out of Congress. We believed that they were trying to overturn an election on the basis of someone's private sexual life and his lies about it. We won, and the Republicans are now chopped liver. Good riddance. Now, it is time for all of us to stop Clinton and his disgusting, hypocritical fellow democrats who support him in this war. It is amazing to watch all these "liberal" congress members line up behind the President. In a way, I'm glad it's happening, if only to show the American people there is little difference between the Democrats and the usually war-loving Republicans. Aren't you getting a kick watching the Pat Buchanans and the Henry Hydes sounding like pacifists! These politicians can change stripes at the drop of a hat (or bomb) because, ultimately, they are the same animal, participants in a one-party system that tries to fool the people by going by two names ("Democrat" and "Republican"). Please call or write your member of Congress, send a letter to the editor, let the Democrats know we have had it with the whole lot of them. This is OUR country, not theirs and the corporate interests they really represent. It's time to start taking it back. Each cruise missile that is launched could have built a dozen schools or hired another hundred teachers or provided health care to a thousand people. Those millions of dollars could have been spent saving lives and educating children. Every night, Clinton isn't just bombing Yugoslavia, he's bombing you. Yours, Michael Moore MMFlint@aol.com ======================================================== I voted for Clinton twice, and could not have cared less about his indiscretions, but this shit is getting funky. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 06:58:36 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: VLJC -alternate tunings hi bern! the first question is, do you play guitar already? alternate tunings make guitar playing actually easier, but you have to master barring, since most of the chords involve it. so if you already know how to play a few chords on the guitar, just visit wally's site and you'll find links to pages that contain all the alt tunings that joni uses. that's quite a good way to begin fiddling with your pegs. if you don't how to play guitar at all, take a few lessons in chords and chord progressions with any instructor and as soon as your hands become more or less agile, go to wally's page. that's all there is to it, believe me. Wally Kairuz P.S.: The World Compendium of Joni's Alternate Tunings is Marian's page. I'm sure you can find the address at Wally's. Now, THAT would be one hell of a teacher, but she lives kind of far from Ohio. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:03:24 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) Oh Winfried, don't be naive! Like most world leaders, he's simply being prompted by his scores of advisors on what to say and what to keep quiet about! WallyK - -----Original Message----- De: Winfried Hühn Para: joni@smoe.org Fecha: Jueves 15 de Abril de 1999 13:42 Asunto: Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) >Folks, > >I'm listening on CNN to Clinton's remarks on Kosovo. Say about his >personal integrity what you will -- the man is a great politician! And, >quite untypically for Americans, he understands what's going outside of >the U.S. If only our European/German leaders had at least half of his >political talent and insight -- and power! *Sigh* > >Winfried > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:54:00 +0300 From: j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #162 > << As a general rule, I would say remasters, HDCD's and gold CD's sound >> > > What are HDCD's. > Catgirl HDCD means 'High Definition Compatible Digital'. overview: http://www.hdcd.com/overview/overview1.htm - --jp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:49:50 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Cheryl Wheeler (njc) In a message dated 4/16/99 1:56:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: > Today, after a month or two or three of threats from Ashara to watch > this Cheryl Wheeler tape she sent me, I finally did... and let me tell > you, it was mindblowing!!! I am just in total awe... She had me in > stitches with her stories, and she had me choked up with her songs. So > anyway, y'all got any info about her? I did a search and see that two > of her albums are available in Canada, but anyone have any other info on > her, like articles, who she is, blah blah blah? Sorry I can't help with your request but I do have to chime in about Cheryl. She's a natural talent and a lovely person on stage. So much at ease with all the facets of who she is, which are reflected in the touching beauty of her songs. When I saw her perform some years ago, I found myself wishing that she lived next door because I'm sure if she did that we would be friends. That's how sincere and warm she comes across. We love her here in the Valley (Pioneer Valley is the area of Western Massachusetts I live in). I think she's from New Hampshire. I'd be interested to know for sure, if you find out, Evian. Take care, Gina NP: classical on the radio ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:52:55 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: PC (njc) In a message dated 4/15/99 10:37:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JRMCo1@aol.com writes: > Part of my point is that hate > speech needs to be vigorously opposed whenever it manifests itself, in my > opinion, and that has nothing to do with the term "politically correct," > whatever that means. The best synopsis of the whole subject so far! Gina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:36:31 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: The Latest PC replies, vol. 1 (NJC) In the 1970's basketball broadcaster Rick Barry was doing the game with Bill Russell and a picture of Russell from his youth was flashed on the screen. A very thin young Bill Russell in a team basketball picture with a huge smile on his face. Barry commented on his "watermelon smile". Russell (who was black) became suddenly agitated and remained silent throughout much of the remaining broadcast. Barry lost his job because Russell claimed the comment was racist. ABC fired Rick Barry. Jimmy the Greek made an offhand remark to a reporter literally from a dinner table when asked why blacks a great athletes. His answer was that they were bred for heavy farm work on the plantations. This explanation was almost a quote from a book written by Malcom X. Jimmy the Greek was fired from his job at CBS. Reggie White (who is black) spoke to the Wisconsin state legislature for one hour in 1998 spewing every imaginable racist stereotype including how 30 hispanics frequently live in one apartment and how asians are smart because they can turn a tv into a watch. The legislature sat in stunned silence. Charles Barkley has made numerous overtly racist comments about white players to the press.Both black atheletes played the next week and still play. Like you indicate in your post how you wont accept certain comments without objection and the "right wing extreemists" are this and that. Until left wing extreemists stop being selective about their "outrage" they are just intellectually masturbating. We have learned that PC is one way and far too selective in its application to be valid. It is only enforced against one group of people. We have learned that the women at NOW adore the man who has abused women big time. This reveals that their agenda has nothing to do with fighting for womens rights or anything else they ever claimed they worked for. They had their chance to prove otherwise and they wussed out. Until you get just as pissed about the reggie white incident you may as well hold your phoney righteousness for your college reunion. The left has absolutely proven that it can no longer tell anyone anything about ethics and morals. Their outrage is selective and therefore irrelevant. Now, get back to your "Hillary for President" phone tree. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:08:37 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Hear here! (NJC) In a message dated 4/16/99 1:45:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: > No reasonable person > would > be offended by a well-meaning individual using the term "black" as > opposed to > "African-American." Actually my personal experience has been that many blacks I've spoken with openly and honestly about this issue do not feel they have a thing in common with those who insist on calling them African-American because they view the people who do so as coming from a upper middle class white background. They react by describing themselves as black. One black woman I worked with felt that she almost *had* to refer to *herself* as African-American when she didn't feel natural doing so, because there's so much pressure to conform to this type of language in the workplace, etc. In other words, the only people who use the term are those who are not a part of their communities. I *do* work with low-income people so perhaps for them this is less an issue of race and more an issue of class. Many of the people I work with have little in common with anyone of the upper classes, regardless of their color. But class is another can of worms and one near and dear to my heart. Don't get me started! Admittedly, this is a slice of my reality and not an intellectual muscle flexing. But I think a good dose of reality is needed in these arguments, or else they do tend to turn into "intellectual masturbation", as Marcel said in his post. Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:27:20 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This ...NJC Author: CaTGirl627@aol.com at fdinet Date: 4/15/99 10:14 PM Catgirl said: << I know alot of smaller venues will give the audience the respect that you mentioned above...like a theatre. >> Catgirl, first off, with respect to the PC discussion, I'm not sure that I shouldn't refer to you as "canine-challenged", but anyway - when we were talking to Joni in Atlanta we were all but pleading with her to consider a theatre tour her next time 'round, assuming she'd be touring on her upcoming Standards project. She commented, "Oh that would be nice to play smaller intimate halls but it just wouldn't be possible...". I think she was referring to "coffeehouses" and such, here in Greenville we have The Peace Center, a concert hall that seats about 2500 with great acoustics. That would be a great venue for her, and I'm sure most major areas would have like facilities. Matter of fact, Cassandra will be at the Peace Center next Saturday... Bob NP: The calorically-challenged Peter Gabriel, "I Have The Touch" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:45:19 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: PCness on a lighter side ( NJC ) Well, why not change sides once in a while and look at the world from a politically correct angle? Here are a few suggestions which might be helpful (My translation of a fellow German PC-hater's suggestions) wrong: right: ======= ====================== small horizontally challenged stupid mentally differently gifted "eternal student" not traditionally immatriculated old chronologically advanced drunk with a differring degree of sobriety chaotic unusually organized "Ice Cream Man" "Ice Cream Person" (to avoid discrimi- (In Germany, people who deli- nating against women in the business) ver ice cream and frozen goods to your house are traditionally called "Eismann" -- "Ice Cream Man") lazy differently motivated fat gifted with an alternative figure bald differently haired room plant botanical companion Idiocy alternative logics shoplifter untraditional customer dead affected with a dying problem failure partial success failure (person) indvidual with temporarily unaccomplished aims ugly aesthetically different Rowdy person with a sensitivity impairment Hey, this is fun!!! Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:54:27 +0100 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: PC (NJC) But Kakki and Julius What's wrong with calling 'fighting hate speech' 'political correctness'?? I don't understand. It's like feminism - it's become a dirty word to such an extent that even the British Minister for Women says she is not a feminist!! What's she doing in the job then when all the aims of her department are feminist aims?? PC means exactly: fighting hate speech. But it's become an object of scorn (like feminism) because of scare-stories and spurious attacks by the right. If those of us on the left say well yes, we went too far with PC - when the PC movement always had noble aims, as far as I can tell - then that's not only disappointing but also a wasted opportunity. There are still so many linguistics hurdles to get over (as witnessed by the discussion of PC on this very list) but, I don't know, maybe the battle is lost... Yours in perplexity PX ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:07:31 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: The Latest PC replies, vol. 1 (NJC) >Now, get back to your "Hillary for President" phone tree. Uh, Hillary IS the President, at least last time I checked. ;-) Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:09:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: re: PC (njc) Well put, Julius. Last night I watched American History X, which I highly recommend to anyone interested in the roots of racism and the power of language to reinforce stereotypes. bill On Thu, 15 Apr 1999 JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > A pox on whoever invented the term "political correctness." It's vague, > hopelessly general and utterly inadequate for defining any sociological > phenomena in the free world, in my opinion. Furthermore, no term that can be > applied to debates as innocuous as boyfriend vs. significant other should > extend to the discussion of issues with the gravity of ethnicity, race and > hate speech, imo. > > The fact is that freedom of speech is an inalienable right in the U.S. > Nevertheless, voiced insensitivity to people who are perceived as "different" > from oneself, while not a crime, takes a daily toll on the psyches of people > who have been victimized because of race, sexual orientation, ethnicity, > religion and immigration status. > > I believe it is a fallacy to suggest that there is some kind of movement to > apply "political correctness" to everything. Where are all these people who > are allegedly "pro-pc"? No such faction exists. There are however legions > who are pro-sensitivity, pro-equality, and/or anti-defamation. I applaud > them. > > --Julius > > > . > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:25:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: The Latest PC replies, vol. 1 (NJC) This came flying in from right field: >Until you get just as pissed about the reggie white incident you may as well hold your phoney righteousness for your college reunion. I guess you missed all of the controversy regarding reggie white, but his ignorant comments certainly did not go unaddressed. And you neglected to mention his gay-bashing, which ignited a storm of protest and resulted in the Packers telling him that he could not wear his uniform in commercials for the commercials he did for the christian reich. bill ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:09:25 -0400 From: LOREN CARTER Subject: PCness on a lighter side-reply (NJC) All, Sometimes when I can't remember what day of the week it is I refer to myself as: Gregorian calendar challanged and, balding....deforestation effort in progress Loren...who is sitting down and shutting up ;-) NP.....Heard it through the Grapevine...Gladys Knight and the Pips >Well, why not change sides once in a while and look at the world from a >politically correct angle? Here are a few suggestions which might be >helpful (My translation of a fellow German PC-hater's suggestions) >wrong: right: >======= ====================== >small horizontally challenged >stupid mentally differently gifted >"eternal student" not traditionally immatriculated >old chronologically advanced >drunk with a differring degree of sobriety >chaotic unusually organized >"Ice Cream Man" "Ice Cream Person" (to avoid discrimi- >(In Germany, people who deli- nating against women in the business) >ver ice cream and frozen goods >to your house are traditionally called >"Eismann" -- "Ice Cream Man") >lazy differently motivated >fat gifted with an alternative figure >bald differently haired >room plant botanical companion >Idiocy alternative logics >shoplifter untraditional customer >dead affected with a dying problem >failure partial success >failure (person) indvidual with temporarily unaccomplished aims >ugly aesthetically different >Rowdy person with a sensitivity impairment >Hey, this is fun!!! >Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:37:54 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This Some years ago I was invited to sit down and discuss with the Bill Graham organization some alternative type concert situations. I suggested that my dream concert would be Van Morrison and Ry Cooder or an acoustic Pete Townshend at the Great American Music Hall for a 4 hour show (2 each) where each party would get a table to themselves and a nice bottle of good champaign and a nice light food serving say some smoked salmon, a nice salad with real wine vinegar, apples, and assorted cheezes and that I would be willing to pay substantially more for a night like that say $150. Small place, elbow room, etc. let me ask this question to the list: If you could have a dream concert who (besides Joni) would you have play and where would you have it and what would you be willing to pay in todays dollars ??. marcel deste. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:46:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Re: Cheryl Wheeler (njc) She also has big fans in Melanie, Joan Baez, and Peter, Paul, and Mary who have recorded her songs early on in her career. Jerry On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 Ginamu@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/16/99 1:56:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: > > > Today, after a month or two or three of threats from Ashara to watch > > this Cheryl Wheeler tape she sent me, I finally did... and let me tell > > you, it was mindblowing!!! I am just in total awe... She had me in > > stitches with her stories, and she had me choked up with her songs. So > > anyway, y'all got any info about her? I did a search and see that two > > of her albums are available in Canada, but anyone have any other info on > > her, like articles, who she is, blah blah blah? > > Sorry I can't help with your request but I do have to chime in about Cheryl. > She's a natural talent and a lovely person on stage. So much at ease with all > the facets of who she is, which are reflected in the touching beauty of her > songs. When I saw her perform some years ago, I found myself wishing that she > lived next door because I'm sure if she did that we would be friends. That's > how sincere and warm she comes across. We love her here in the Valley > (Pioneer Valley is the area of Western Massachusetts I live in). I think > she's from New Hampshire. I'd be interested to know for sure, if you find > out, Evian. > > Take care, > Gina > NP: classical on the radio > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:37:41 EDT From: Bern44105@aol.com Subject: tape trees (njc) Just found out about the tape trees and I'm interested in #1and #2. Might be interested In #4 but not sure of its content. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:18:52 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Concert Ideals ... Oh boy, won't this be fun! Okay ... Julia Fordham, with Lindsay Buckingham on guitar, Benmont Tench on piano and keys, Brian Blade on drums and Larry Klein on bass. Set them up at The Strictly Tabu in Dallas Texas. Tabu is an intimate jazz club/Italian trattoria that seats about 250 clustered around small tables that fan out from the main stage. Give the audience a dinner choice of Fra Diavolo or Pommodoro with a bottle Ecco Dommani Chianti. Start with one of the Tabu's desert-dry martinis and finish with B&B in a snifter -- after two, 2+ hour sets. For this fantasy, I would gladly pay $400/ticket - -- no joke. Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:19:07 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Winfried (NJC) Catgirl wrote: >>Winfried >> >Well you are a BOLD girl!!! Those who have met Winfried know that he is a handsome and articulate young man, future lawyer and, no doubt, future Prime Minister of Germany. We can say we knew him when. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:24:32 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Concert Ideals ... (NJC) Sorry for the repeat, but for those who might have missed the original suggestion -- Marcel asked ... >If you could have a dream concert who (besides Joni) would you have >play and where would you have it and what would you be willing to pay >in todays dollars ??. Oh boy, won't this be fun! Okay ... Julia Fordham, with Lindsay Buckingham on guitar, Benmont Tench on piano and keys, Brian Blade on drums and Larry Klein on bass. Set them up at The Strictly Tabu in Dallas Texas. Tabu is an intimate jazz club/Italian trattoria that seats about 250 clustered around small tables that fan out from the main stage. Give the audience a dinner choice of Fra Diavolo or Pommodoro with a bottle Ecco Dommani Chianti. Start with one of the Tabu's desert-dry martinis and finish with B&B in a snifter -- after two, 2+ hour sets. For this fantasy, I would gladly pay $400/ticket - -- no joke. Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:25:53 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This (NJC) Marcel asks: <> This is equivalent to asking a 4-year old in a Toys R Us to pick something out, but for total indulging of fantasy and given that Joni can't be a choice, I'd pay $200 to see Tom Waits & XTC at the Handlebar here in town (a non-smoking VERY intimate music hall). I wouldn't even ask for wine & cheese... Well, that's one more wish I ain't gonna get!! :>) Bob NP: Lisa Germano, "Big, Big World" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:52:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Re[4]: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This (NJC) John Prine and Nanci Griffith in my living room, with margaritas.... $$$$empty my savings account bill NP -Blondie, No Exit ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:06:10 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: The Perfect Album ... Yes all, it is "Hejira." The entire experience is, quite simply, without a single blemish, flaw or imperfection. As fresh today as the day it was released, the warmth and simplicity of the arrangements, the unbelievable dexterity and skill, both musically and vocally, the devastating poetry of the lyrics, lined up in a sequence that couldn't be improved upon. There, I've said it, and I feel much better! Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:14:30 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: Re: PC (njc) Catgirl wrote: <<>> I addressed this issue recently WRT The Roots' new album, _Things Fall Apart_. The word you hear in rap songs is "nigga," which is by no means unrelated to that other word, but is worth talking about in a distinct way. "Nigga" is a very common word used by many (predominately young) black Americans to refer to black men. It is pretty much a value-neutral slang term, much as "dude" was among many white Americans until very recently. While I have no explicit knowledge of its etymology as a slang term, I think it's a fair guess that it originated in efforts to reclaim that other word as a statement of power over the epithets used to denigrate black Americans. That said, it's worth noting that among those who use "nigga," (i.e. young black Americans, the music of which is predominately hip-hop) it is spelled and pronounced DIFFERENTLY from that other word. It is also worth noting that usage of "nigga" communicates this value-neutral meaning only when being used by people of color, or perhaps by the exceptionally "down" (for lack of a better word) white person. Otherwise it will probably be interpreted as an epithet. An analogy that may help clarify is the usage of "girl" and feminine pronouns among many (predominately young) gay men to refer to other (predominately young) gay men. This is almost always used with affection and camaraderie, though implicit in its use is a recognition of the outsider status shared by those who use it. If a straight person whose "down"ness was unknown used it, however, it could well be taken as an insult. The cardinal rule I try to follow with potentially offensive language is this: let members of a given group decide FOR THEMSELVES what they would like to be called, and recognize that what word they choose to use themselves and what word they would prefer you use may be different. Granted, not everyone in any given group agrees on the correct word, but I think the best strategy is to use the safe ones until you build a relationship that better signals which words are on- or off-limits. Words can be powerful things, and it is important to be aware of that. At the same time, *attitudes* are more important than words. I try to be concentrate on improving the attitudes I feel and the ones I project, and let the words follow from that care. - --Michael NP: Luscious Jackson, _Fever In Fever Out_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:25:38 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: PCness on a lighter side ( NJC ) dead affected with a dying problem (as each and everyone one of us is) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:25:44 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Hear here! (NJC) Gina-I worked briefly at an HIV/AIDS centre. It was a terrible experience. I found my fellow gays to be most intolerant and bigoted of anyone who did follow their politcal stance. The fact that i have been with my partner for 18 years, that I did not practice safe sex(cos I have no need to), did not dress in a particular way, did not agitate, and did not look like they they did(many looked like skinheads-god knows why they would want to look like a group well known for their nazi politics) meant I was ostracised an eventaully forced to leave. The place was not about helping and caring for those in need at all but about pushing their own political agenda and no had the courage to speak up and be themselves. Mind you I did and had to leave. So like your friend who felt uncomfortable labelling herself in order to be right one, I too feel uncomfortable about sucvh labelling and I will NOT be told how to be by anyone, not even my fellow gays. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:25:54 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: PC (njc) A blck person calling another black person a nigger is completely different! It has not the same message. The same as when a gay person refers to another as a fag or queer or poof or whatever. A str8 person doing it is offensive the same as a white person using the word nigger. It is really simple to understand. CaTGirl627@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/15/1999 6:53:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > whuehn@stud.uni-goettingen.de writes: > > << It is simply a matter of politeness to call a person how that person wants > to be > called. To call an "African American" a "nigger" is simply slander, as > everybody > knows this term to convey a derogative and hurtful meaning. The word "black" > originally had no such derogative meaning, but the consensus now seems to be > that it does. Has the social situation of "African Americans" been improved > by > calling them "African Americans" instead of "blacks"? I don't think so. > >> > What puzzles me is that when Afro-Americans sing rap they call themselves > Nigger all the time. My son listens to this music all the time so I catch a > word now and again. Why do Afro-Americans do that if they don't to be called > that? > Catgirl..scratching her head and NO not fleas! - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:26:01 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) I wonder if old Bill would be so war minded if kosovo was on his doorstep. Yes I know Blair is involved too. It seems Britain is just another US state nowadays. Unfortunately, I discovered thru driving around my new country home that this is where all the American airbases are...... So one day if my emails dry up you might have an idea as to why.(but dont' jump in delight just yet!) Kakki wrote: > Winfried wrote: > > > I'm listening on CNN to Clinton's remarks on Kosovo. Say about his > > personal integrity what you will -- the man is a great politician! And, > > quite untypically for Americans, he understands what's going outside of > > the U.S. > > Winfried dear, please give some credit to those untypical Americans who are > paying for all this. We've almost depleted our supply of missiles and I've > heard the government is dipping into our Social Security funds to help > finance this effort. > > > If only our European/German leaders had at least half of his > > political talent and insight -- and power! *Sigh* > > I heard a news report (perhaps erroneous?) that Germany was one of the most > supportive European countries in this matter. > > Kakki, war-weary - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:25:58 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: PC (njc) Julius-not being black I cannot fully identify with your experience but I had a sense upon reading your mail that i understood the frustration at the lack of understanding, even from well meaning people. From the gay perspective, I feel the same frustraytion at the ignorance shown by even the well meaning who really just don't get it. The other eveing, in a discussion of dogs, a man, who knew I was gay, called Poodles a 'poofters' dog. I let it go as I just couldn't be bothered at that time. I often think that people don't get it cos they don't want to. There is an ongoing situation here where a young black man, Stephen Lawrence, was brutally murdered at a bus stop in Eltham by five white thugs. They have so far got away from it and, due to the law, thay cannot be tried for his murder again. however, they are still trying to get them. The police really botched this up. An ex-friend, said that although she did not like black people she didn't feel it was right to have stabbed this boy to death. Her rascism was not at all obvious to her. She was 'not homophobic' either, yet when the violence started at my old home, she eventually balmed us and she and the rest of theneighbours did nothing at all to help with the police and other authorites. They even went as far as to actually blame us for being targeted. 'it must be your fault-they leave us alone'. This 'friend' is an ex copper. Thank god she is an ex one is all I can say. People like her make more mad than the obvious bigots-they are so damend cowardly and hypocritcal. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:49:51 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: See You Later Hi All I'm logging off today for about 3 weeks today as I will be vacation in Indonesia and Micronesia ( Hi Pat!). This is so hard to do! I guess I must be addicted! ; -) Anyway, I second Ashara's request for her vacation absence..."Don't say anything important until I return!" : - ) - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:59:12 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: PCness on a lighter side ( NJC ) What's mesmerizing me is how many of these apply to me now or in the future. - -jan >wrong: right: >======= ====================== > >small horizontally challenged >stupid mentally differently gifted >"eternal student" not traditionally immatriculated >old chronologically advanced >drunk with a differring degree of sobriety >chaotic unusually organized > >"Ice Cream Man" "Ice Cream Person" (to avoid discrimi- >(In Germany, people who deli- nating against women in the business) >ver ice cream and frozen goods >to your house are traditionally called >"Eismann" -- "Ice Cream Man") > >lazy differently motivated >fat gifted with an alternative figure >bald differently haired >room plant botanical companion >Idiocy alternative logics >shoplifter untraditional customer >dead affected with a dying problem >failure partial success >failure (person) indvidual with temporarily unaccomplished aims >ugly aesthetically different >Rowdy person with a sensitivity impairment >Hey, this is fun!!! >Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:29:15 -0800 From: mwyarbro@zzapp.org Subject: RE: Re: The Latest PC replies, vol. 1 (NJC) MDESTE wrote: <<>> Sounds pretty racist to me, unless Barry was beamed in from some other planet where he managed to escape knowledge of the connotations of "watermelon" WRT African-Americans. <<>> Are you implying that Jimmy the Greek had read Malcolm X? I find that very difficult to believe. Nonetheless, I agree with you that this is a more ambiguous case, more because he wasn't "on the job" than the actual comment. <<>> It might interest you to know that Reggie White *was* *roundly* denounced by several "left wing extremist" organizations, including the Human Rights Campaign and then State Sen. Tammy Baldwin, for his racist and homophobic (which you seemingly forgot to mention) remarks. I believe (though my memory is fuzzy on this point) that the NFL itself dissociated itself from his remarks. Perhaps you didn't know this information. But if you did, it's not the "left-wing extremists" who are being "selective." - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:31:37 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: pc bullshit From: "Deborah Finora" Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:16:44 -0400 This is my first post to the JMDL and after reading several digests with wonderful information about her musical legacy, insights into her lyrics, and, indeed, just the type of conversant knowledge one hopes to gain by subscribing to such a digest, I have become quite dismayed to see all the irrelevant issues discussed in this column! Who cares?! These are topics which one encounters all the time in the press, in our jobs, in our daily life conversations, but please! not in a site which proudly bears the name of Joni Mitchell! Is this really what you all set the site up for in the first place--a place for arguments about whether a guy was justifiably fired for using a "politically incorrect" word? I mean, come on!! Music, specifically Joni's music, should be, first and foremost, your topic of concern, don't you think? I don't mean to go off half-cocked myself, but day after day, it does get a bit tiresome; I beg you all, please limit the bulk of comments to Joni and her incredible ability to entrance us all by her many talents. And BTW, is there a glossary one can access to understand some of the lingo/abbreviations used--I'm new at this, and it sometimes gets frustrating trying to translate into pc-illiterate terms...I'm still trying to figure out what "Siquomb, isn't she?" means...! (I am aware of her early songs being published by Siquomb, but is it an adjective or what?) Thanks for letting me add my two cents worth--when do you think the next in-depth discussion of Joni's lyrics will be...? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:34:53 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: PC (njc) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:23:22 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: >The more I hear of your argument, the more I disagree. This notion that politically correct language police exist is patently absurd to me. The idea that there is some conspiracy to force people to speak a certain way is equally ridiculous. Your position seems to boil down to a defense of the status quo. I can't support that, but at this point I'm prepared to agree to disagree to maintain decorum here on the list. < I am not at all defending the status quo. I am merely asking everybody to stick to democratic rules and practices while pursuing their political goals, whatever these may be. Redefining terms and forcing people to use them is undemocratic. Unfortunately, it happens, everywhere. I admit to exaggerate a bit, but I am simply angered that these people still think they are progressive while they just are as intolerant as the people and practices they criticize. >You really should be more careful in ascribing opinions to other people whosecondition you clearly have no understanding of.< I must agree here, and I apologize for using the "black/African American" example to illustrate my points. Reading your post made me realize that I indeed know much too little about these terms, their usage and their connotations to discuss these without making mistakes. So I better don't, especially since it is such a touchy issue. This does not affect my general attitude towards political correctness. >To call an "African American" a "nigger" is simply slander, as everybody knows this term to convey a derogative and hurtful meaning. The word "black" originally had no such derogative meaning, but the consensus now seems to be that it does.< >There is nothing simple about the effect of that word, and you know which one I mean, on the person it is directed at. Yes, it is derogatory and hurtful, but that doesn't make it "slander," as that requires the utterance of false charges which defame and damage another's reputation. There is no criminal or civil remedy for its hateful use, unfortunately, unless it is used in conjunction with physical violence.< Thanks for the lecture! Well, at least here in Germany, "nigger" makes a clear case of slander ("Beleidigung" -- § 185 German Penal Code), as our courts define it as: "any utterance or action which denies the fundamental humanity, ethical or social value of the adressee". There have been convictions for utterances of "faggot", "Nazi-pig", "pig", "fucking cop", "fascist", "jewish pig", "slut", "enemy of the constitution" (to address a county council member), "old Stalin-style communist", "death squadron" ( addressing a member of the GSG 9 anti-terrorist force), "informer" (pertaining to a police officer). I find some of these examples extremely questionable to prosecute and penalize. There even was one case, in which someone was convicted for calling a lawyer "one of these so-called attorneys". In 1990, someone was sentenced to a 1,000 DM fine for slandering the German army, because there was a sticker on his car containing the pacifist slogan "Soldiers are Murderers". The appeal courts upheld the ruling, but, after 5 years of legal battle, our constitutional court acquitted the poor man, ruling that the statement was protected by the right to free speech . The conservatives were outraged by this ruling and called it a "legal scandal", whereas the Green party saw it as a "milestone in the history of pacifism" . From all this you can see how problematic speech-banning laws are if their scope is too wide. >I can agree that equal opportunity for everyone should be the goal, but until everyone is sensitive to the perspective of people that are different from themselves, and communicate accordingly and thus topple the norm/other paradigm, the goal will never be realized. < Yes, but why can't one say "blind" anymore without being attacked for using inappropriate, discriminatory speech, if even the blind themselves insist on being called "blind"? Winfried ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #163 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?