From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #162 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, April 16 1999 Volume 04 : Number 162 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: BLUE on gold CD (comparisons)NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: PC (njc) [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: PC (njc) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Fwd: BLUE on gold CD [CaTGirl627@aol.com] VLJC -alternate tunings [Bern44105@aol.com] Re: PC (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re: Jazz Takes On Joni Mitchell [Dflahm@aol.com] bryan thomas (njc) [patrick leader ] The Latest PC replies, vol. 1 (NJC) [David Wright ] Cheryl Wheeler (njc) [evian ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:27:09 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: BLUE on gold CD (comparisons)NJC In a message dated 4/15/1999 2:35:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi writes: << As a general rule, I would say remasters, HDCD's and gold CD's sound >> What are HDCD's. Catgirl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:31:37 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) In a message dated 4/15/1999 3:31:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, whuehn@stud.uni-goettingen.de writes: << Folks, I'm listening on CNN to Clinton's remarks on Kosovo. Say about his personal integrity what you will -- the man is a great politician! And, quite untypically for Americans, he understands what's going outside of the U.S. If only our European/German leaders had at least half of his political talent and insight -- and power! *Sigh* Winfried >> Well you are a BOLD girl!!! Giving Clinto credit...God bless you! Frankly, I think he is a great president too. He has strong environmental values. Besides (don't laugh) Jimmy Carter, he is my favorite! Catgirl....PLEASE don't be mean I had a rough day! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:34:17 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: PC (njc) kakki writes: << Julius, I hope you understand that was my whole point. If not, I'm sorry for being unclear. What I'm getting out of this thread essentially is that we are all in agreement that hate speech should always be protested but some people take it way too far and thereby trivialize and dilute the original meaning and purpose. >> I did understand your point, kakki. I was just using your example to illustrate how vague the term "pc" is and how it can be applied to almost any discourse. Thanks for the elaboration though. Part of my point is that hate speech needs to be vigorously opposed whenever it manifests itself, in my opinion, and that has nothing to do with the term "politically correct," whatever that means. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:46:17 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: PC (njc) In a message dated 4/15/1999 6:53:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, whuehn@stud.uni-goettingen.de writes: << It is simply a matter of politeness to call a person how that person wants to be called. To call an "African American" a "nigger" is simply slander, as everybody knows this term to convey a derogative and hurtful meaning. The word "black" originally had no such derogative meaning, but the consensus now seems to be that it does. Has the social situation of "African Americans" been improved by calling them "African Americans" instead of "blacks"? I don't think so. >> What puzzles me is that when Afro-Americans sing rap they call themselves Nigger all the time. My son listens to this music all the time so I catch a word now and again. Why do Afro-Americans do that if they don't to be called that? Catgirl..scratching her head and NO not fleas! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:50:25 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Fwd: BLUE on gold CD - --part1_eb2855ca.2447ff71_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/15/1999 9:54:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, CaTGirl627@aol.com writes: << In a message dated 4/15/1999 1:36:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << Interesting question, and I do not have enough of a mix of US vs European CD's to answer. In terms of vinyl, however, US versions have historically been inferior. Japanese and German pressings seemed to be the best, by far. That is, unless the >> I would have to agree with you there. English and Japanese imports are far superior then american pressings as far as records go. That is why way back when I got Joni first 4 albums on Japanese Import. Only played once! They were the only four they carried at the time. I got Blue on Japanese import. When I get my gold CD I will do a test to see which sounds bettergold or Japanese pressing! Catgirl...NP: Tea leaf prophecy >> - --part1_eb2855ca.2447ff71_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (rly-yd05.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.5]) by air-yd01.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:54:46 -0400 Received: from chmls05.mediaone.net (ne.mediaone.net [24.128.1.70]) by rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id VAA04151; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:54:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smoe.org (080020908e73.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.204.144]) by chmls05.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22692; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id VAA24761; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:53:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:53:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id VAA24738 for joni-outgoing; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id VAA24731 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:53:04 -0400 (EDT) From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Received: from CaTGirl627@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id pUFFa00791 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <91fd274b.2447f18f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:51:11 EDT Subject: Re: BLUE on gold CD To: joni@smoe.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-joni@jmdl.com Reply-To: CaTGirl627@aol.com Precedence: bulk In a message dated 4/15/1999 1:36:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << Interesting question, and I do not have enough of a mix of US vs European CD's to answer. In terms of vinyl, however, US versions have historically been inferior. Japanese and German pressings seemed to be the best, by far. That is, unless the >> I would have to agree with you there. English and Japanese imports are far superior then american pressings as far as records go. That is why way back when I got Joni first 4 albums on Japanese Import. Only played once! They were the only three they carried at the time. I got Blue on Japanese import. When I get my gold CD I will do a test to see which sounds bettergold or Japanese pressing! Catgirl...NP: Tea leaf prophecy - --part1_eb2855ca.2447ff71_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:02:22 EDT From: Bern44105@aol.com Subject: VLJC -alternate tunings First time posting: Just bought a guitar and am interested in studying with someone who, 1) really understands alternate tunings, and 2) has a keen understanding and appreciation of Joni's style. I'm in Cleveland, OH though willing to travel for the right situation. Any suggestions? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:54:50 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: PC (njc) Julius wrote: >Part of my point is that hate > speech needs to be vigorously opposed whenever it manifests itself, in my > opinion, and that has nothing to do with the term "politically correct," > whatever that means. I agree with that 1000% Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:29:20 EDT From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: Jazz Takes On Joni Mitchell Brett, I'm glad (understatement) to know of your enthusiasm for JAZZ TAKES...It would be a wonderful experience to record more JM songs as jazz and I believe it's not impossible. The feedback has been so good...hopefully this will be reflected in sales, a market discovered, leading to etc etc etc. You know how it goes. Whatever happens, I'm a happy man tonight. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:16:53 -0400 From: patrick leader Subject: bryan thomas (njc) i just got back from hearing a fantastic 45-minute set by bryan thomas, just him and guitar. picked up his new cd and said hi before the show, and it was cool having the cd in front of me as one song after another blew me away. most of them are on the cd. kay ashley and i went. my favorite moment was a little two song suite. closer, a mini epic with changing time signatures is a dark song about a cheating lover. it's a journey of feelings in a guitar symphony. he followed that with a lighter song about being the cheater, called 'mama'. the song is spoken to the girlfriend, and it says basically, 'i like your mama'. the best verse (approximately): you want a passing grade but i'm gonna have to fail ya cause you sing like mariah but your mama sing like mahalia oof. love that. love the verse that says 'at least i kept it in the family'. love the line that says 'don't tell your daddy, i hear the brother's got a gun'. his guitar work is amazing. extremely fast and precise strumming, a really good, full sound. kay leaned over and said 'sweet chords', while we were both lost in a song called 'liquefy' (also on the cd, and beautiful in the recording). and of course, he's a great singer. the singing highlight was a guitar and falsetto version of 'amazing grace' at the end of a tragic and amazing song called cycle, which is right where i am on the cd, now, so i'm signing off. patrick np - bryan thomas - radio plastic jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:22:38 -0400 (EDT) From: David Wright Subject: The Latest PC replies, vol. 1 (NJC) JRMCo1@aol.com writes: > > A pox on whoever invented the term "political correctness." It's vague, > hopelessly general and utterly inadequate for defining any sociological > phenomena in the free world, in my opinion. As I've said at least twice now, the person who invented the term according to the information I have is Karen DeCrow, then-president of the National Organization of Women, in 1975. The term's meaning was perfectly specific, adequate and innocuous, though perhaps not widespread, for about fifteen years after its invention, until it became the target of a smear campaign by right-wing reactionaries (and there's some fascinating discussion in the newsgroup uk.music.folk right now about the role in this smear campaign of a racist study from Dartmouth college, the Moral Majority, and the Reagan-Bush speechwriters who were of course trying to turn back the clock on the social and political reforms of the past 25 years). Don't blame Karen DeCrow for this. Of course, as we've seen on this list, the reactionary, malicious, false definition concocted within the past decade has become so widely accepted as the original and only that it *could* be seen as the actual (de facto) definition -- in which case, I fully agree with you: a pox on THE REACTIONARIES. > Where are all these people who are allegedly "pro-pc"? No such faction > exists. There are however legions who are pro-sensitivity, > pro-equality, and/or anti-defamation. I applaud them. Thank you so much, Julius. *This* is what I've been saying all along (sorry if that wasn't clear). Winfried wrote: > > And I reiterate my point that Poltical Correctness is bullshit and needs to > be criticized whenever and wherever it rears its ugly head. I look forward to unproductive debates clogging the list and frittering away my time endlessly, then, since I cannot and will not stand for that sort of crap. Or hey, maybe we should just agree on a definition of political correctness first. > Euphemisms and the politically correct language which they exemplify are > sometimes only prissy, sometimes ridiculous, and sometimes > tiresome. [snip] At their worst they obscure clear thinking and damage > the very people and causes they claim to benefit. More reactionary bullshit (to use Winfried's word). - --David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:41:53 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Hear here! (NJC) Julius wrote: "The more I hear of your argument, the more I disagree. This notion that politically correct language police exist is patently absurd to me. The idea that there is some conspiracy to force people to speak a certain way is equally ridiculous. Your position seems to boil down to a defense of the status quo. I can't support that, but at this point I'm prepared to agree to disagree to maintain decorum here on the list. There is nothing simple about the effect of that word, and you know which one I mean, on the person it is directed at. Yes, it is derogatory and hurtful, but that doesn't make it "slander," as that requires the utterance of false charges which defame and damage another's reputation. There is no criminal or civil remedy for its hateful use, unfortunately, unless it is used in conjunction with physical violence. You really should be more careful in ascribing opinions to other people whose condition you clearly have no understanding of. No reasonable person would be offended by a well-meaning individual using the term "black" as opposed to "African-American." Moreover, not all African Americans are black, nor do all blacks in the U.S. consider themselves African American. As a black African American who was alive when "Negro" and "Colored" were the prevalent labels, I can tell you unequivocally that there was a marked improvement in the social situation when James Brown released "Say It Loud (I'm Black and I'm Proud)" in the 60s. The term African American has had a similar esteem building effect, since it emphasises African heritage, now a source of pride for many. Also, you have to be careful not to confuse a causal relationship with a temporal sequence. Consider the possibility that *because* the social situation has improved for black Americans we are now more empowered to refer to ourselves as African-American if we wish. I can agree that equal opportunity for everyone should be the goal, but until everyone is sensitive to the perspective of people that are different from themselves, and communicate accordingly and thus topple the norm/other paradigm, the goal will never be realized." Dear Julius- As one who can feel and understand exactly what you so beautifully told here, I feel you have hit the mark heah suh. Coming up through the seventies here in the deep south and being a person of color from somewhere else was a trying time for me. It turned me inside myself for a long time and much of my writing reflected the pain I was feeling from so much ignorance and hate. The eighties and nineties are no better as already I am hearing questions from my children like "is it because I am brown?". David Duke is running for Congress here and has some heavy support amongst some folk in these heah parts. To me that is the epitome of political incorrectness. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:49:39 -0600 From: evian Subject: Cheryl Wheeler (njc) Today, after a month or two or three of threats from Ashara to watch this Cheryl Wheeler tape she sent me, I finally did... and let me tell you, it was mindblowing!!! I am just in total awe... She had me in stitches with her stories, and she had me choked up with her songs. So anyway, y'all got any info about her? I did a search and see that two of her albums are available in Canada, but anyone have any other info on her, like articles, who she is, blah blah blah? thanks! Evian Anita Baker -- Rapture P.S. Thanks, SongMama! ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #162 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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