From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #161 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, April 15 1999 Volume 04 : Number 161 Join the Joni Mitchell Internet Community Glossary project. Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://www.jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- David Lahm and Gold Blue [mann@chicagonet.net] Off the extortion bandwagon....an apology (NJC) [LOREN CARTER ] Learning guitar/was Joni songs...NJC ["Don Rowe" ] RE: Jazz Takes On Joni Mitchell [Brett Code ] Re: pc stuff ( njc ; long) ["Winfried Hühn" ] Les Deax Scalpers [Steve Dulson ] RE: Scalping (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re[2]: Scalping (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Les Deax Scalpers ["Kakki" ] RE: BLUE on gold CD (comparisons) [j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi] Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: Scalping(NJC) [Bounced Message ] Remastered CDs ( NJC ) [Bounced Message ] "Blind" -- a politically incorrect word? ( NJC ) [Bounced Message ] RE: pc stuff (njc) [patrick leader ] Re: PC (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re: pc stuff (njc) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: BLUE on gold CD [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Scalping (NJC) [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This ...NJC [CaTGirl627@aol.com] Re: PC (njc) [JRMCo1@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:51:28 -0500 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: David Lahm and Gold Blue Tower Records here in Chicago has both Gold BLUE ($30.99) and David Lahm's JAZZ TAKES ON JONI MITCHELL ($16.99). What a thrill to hear a jazz album of ALL Joni music! One of my favs is Song For Sharon.........I've always loved the sound of the xylophone! Mark (the husband) who thinks Joni is "too wordy" actually likes this album!! Who is this David Lahm to make a whole album of Joni Music????!! Great words from the man himself in the Liner notes. David............if that was really YOU posting on this list.........LOVE your new album and thank you for making it! Laura ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:31:54 -0400 From: LOREN CARTER Subject: Off the extortion bandwagon....an apology (NJC) All, ....and with feet firmly planted on solid ground again. Regarding my rantings and ravings of yesterday....I read my post and I wondered...who and/or what caused him (me) to go off and spout off about all that stuff I did. Lucky I don't have a gun, or a Texas tower close by. By the tone of my missive, I was close to climbing that tower and sniping at the world. For that, I'm sorry. I don't know why I felt the need to send that message. Yesterday wasn't a particularly bad day, my world wasn't in chaos, so I am clueless (as the big "C" on my forehead will atest) as to what pulled the linch pin to start my ramblings. Maybe it was the persons comment that in this politically correct world, we are afraid to speak our minds so we won't offend others....well, I'm sorry, and I'll endeavor to not vent at your expense or bandwidth again. After all, there's Joni to talk about. My "Painting with..." tape is on back order, but the Gold Blue is on the way..YIPPEEEEE! humble and deep in genuflection, Loren..... NP...after watching the biography of the Carpenters on the Biography Channel last night....Close to You....The Carpenters ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:37:22 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC NJC NJC self righteous snits (njc; long) Your adolescent snit and self righteous posturing on a simple statement made by someone is precisely why some dont want other matters even discussed on the list. Like cant people be mistaken as opposed to the terminology you used to describe all the list members ? I would think so. The OTHER facts you left out (conveniently) is that this guy wasnt the first to leave his job (or be made to leave his job) for use of an inadvertent word. His later comments notwithstanding, the day it happened there were many other quotes from "outraged" coworkers defending their "outrage" over the use of the word. So your smarmy high handedness is unwarranted. How for some reason you state that the republicans in congress are involved in this reveals YOUR bias. Are you sure it wasnt the "right wing extreemists" ??? It was nice for you to provide the ex post facto newsbrief but your high handed treatment sucks and you should apologize. Of course frequently those who overly dramatize the mistakes (inadvertent or otherwise) of others are reticent to admit their own. marcel deste. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:40:12 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Scalping(NJC) The artist should first offer tickets to the members of the internet discussion lists at face value dont you think ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:40:28 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: Concert Extortion (NJC) Paul zinged: <> Good one, Paul! And btw, meeting fellow JMDLer's such as yourself, Marsha, Pearl, John the Hairfarmer, Laurie, Maurice, Medric was ALSO priceless!! NP: Aretha, "Since You've Been Gone" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:07:34 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Scalping (NJC) WallyK said: <> Wally, whether it's ethics or simply because I'm a cheap so-and-so, I've never bought from scalpers and never will. If I can't get tickets to something I want to see legitimately, life goes on, ya know? Although I love Kakki's tactic, beat the scalpers at their own game, you go girl!! A decade or so ago, The Rolling Stones came to Clemson to play in Death Valley, tickets sold out fairly quickly, the night of the concert they released another 200 or so tickets an hour before showtime and left many scalpers holding the bag...it was great! Bob, readying himself for Aerosmith this Saturday night...$37.50 each NP: Dixie Dregs, "Free Fall" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:49:13 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: pc stuff (njc) Patrick spewed: < > The ultimate example has to be the public official who had to RESIGN > > HIS POST earlier this year because his correct use of the word > > "niggardly" was offensive to some... to be the worst sort of lying bullshit on list. i will never settle for this level of misinformation, and i can't really respect those who would.>> As the guy who posted the quote you referenced twice, I feel compelled to respond only because being silent might give the impression that I agree with what you're saying (and the tone in which you're speaking)... Having read and re-read and re-read what I wrote, I don't see any misinformation, or lying, or bullshit: 1. The man had to resign his post (even if driven by his own convictions) 2. He used the word "niggardly" correctly 3. The word was offensive to some The kicker to the story is not him, it's the "PC" people who reacted in their own ignorance. Thanks anyway for the additional insight into the story. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:15:08 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This ... A friend of mine reports back from last night's "An Evening With Neil Young". This is his one-man all acoustic show ... in many ways similar to the opening of Joni's last show. So at the venue, liquor was served only at intermissions and was not allowed in the theatre, and there was no seating EXCEPT at breaks and in between songs so as not to disturb the quiet ambience of the solo playing. Now I ask, had these been the rules for the recent Joni tour ... how much more enjoyable would it have been? I can only just imagine! Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 07:26:26 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Learning guitar/was Joni songs...NJC Terry encourages Gina to take up "solid" guitar ;-) > >Gina, girl... >It's never too late to learn. Go for it! > I couldn't agree more ... I just took the plunge (my New Year's resolution) after 17+ years of wishing, and it's been a great experience. I've already managed to master enough chords to compose three new songs which are vastly different from anything I've ever done. Plus my appreciation for Joni's playing has skyrocketed ... I mean, I always knew she was a guitar deity, but now I have a much more intimate understanding of her unique gift and dedication. So I'll throw in with Terry and say "Go for IT!" You won't regret it. Don Rowe _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:53:29 -0600 From: Brett Code Subject: RE: Jazz Takes On Joni Mitchell David, Thanks for making such a brilliant cd. She has so many more songs; I hope you do volumes 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 until you've done them all. Thank you Brett - ---------- From: Dflahm@aol.com[SMTP:Dflahm@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 8:45 PM To: CaTGirl627@aol.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Jazz Takes On Joni Mitchell Kakki ordered it through something called CDNow, which is apparently accessible through your computer. In NYC, Tower, Virgin & HMV all have it, so I would think they'd have it elsewhere in the country too. I hope you find it soon! DAVID LAHM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:14:38 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: pc stuff ( njc ; long) patrick leader wrote: > i really think this story, as it happened, makes comments like this: > > > > The ultimate example has to be the public official who had to > RESIGN > > > HIS POST earlier this year because his correct use of the word > > > "niggardly" was offensive to some... > > to be the worst sort of lying bullshit on list. i will never settle for > this level of misinformation, and i can't really respect those who would. > > patrick > Patrick -- I appreciate your clarification on this "incident", and to a certain degree I also understand your anger. Please be aware though that people relating or referring to this apparently incomplete story don't neccessarily do it for evil purposes. Unfortunately, when you think you have detected a pattern, you tend to pick up very easily a story that seems to fit with it so perfectly. Regarding Political Correctness, I don't see any reason for changing my attitude. There are countless proven examples where the application of Political Correctness has led to completely absurd results. I do support most of the goals of people who are pro-PCness, but trying to eliminate one evil by inflicting another one is simply the wrong way to go. We are very fortunate to live in countries where political goals can be achieved through public information and public discourse. This can only work if people are allowed to voice their opinions and banning speech is carefully restricted to the exceptionally dangerous cases. I'm not entirely against banning hate speech, but there must be a reasonable relationship between the measures and their aims. As always, when there are rights on both sides of the conflict line (the right not to be humiliated/discriminated against vs. the right to free speech), the borderline between laisser faire and the need to interfere is difficult to pinpoint. To suppress and punish simple utterances nearly always is doing more harm to free speech than the gravitiy of the injury would justify. It's also largely ineffective, because the objectionable attitudes are still there, they just won't be voiced publicly anymore, making it even more difficult to address the underlying problems. We should never forget that preventing people from voicing what's on their mind in the language of their choice is a defining elemet of every single totalitarian government around the globe, and this is certainly no conicidence. We have better means of dealing with our problems, and these are education and information. Unless people repeatedly and intentionally use hate speech in order to inflict severe humiliations, to intimidate or to promote violence, there should be no interference other than public criticism, raised awareness and maybe, if it's a close case, a warning that continued attacks will have consequences. This is pretty much in line with the ACLU's standpoint: http://www.aclu.org/library/pbp16.html Maybe some of you will remember that homophobic website of a Baptist church someone posted here a few months ago. It was full of outrageous and inflammatory allegations. Like a few other list members, my initial reaction was "this can't be legal". In the end, I had to agree with Michael Y. who pointed out that indeed it was "perfectly legal". (Although, at least if German laws were applicable, quite close to being prosecutable) Thank goodness, most of the P.C. stuff is more of the petty and annoying kind. Still, I don't understand why people are focusing so much on language rather than addressing the underlying attitudes, which are the real problem. Of course, dealing with these is much more difficult than simply making someone shut up. Symbolic action with superficial immediate results as a substitute for real, but slow, progress. Unfortunately, these things have a tendency to perpetuate themselves until they are totally out of proportion, and this is one of the reasons why it has become so easy for the reactionists to target progressive attitudes. Thanks to P.C.ness, they are the ones now, who seem to be on the reasonable side. Recent internal police statistics in Germany show that in some areas of severe criminality the percentage of non-German perpetrators lies at 60 % and above. IMO this shows that we weren't very successful in integrating immigrants into our society. Of course, the racists interpret them in a "see -- they're all scum, let's get rid of them" way. This has led the social democratic state governments to forbid making these statistics available to the public. In some cases, the data mustn't even be assembled anymore. This is where we are today: Reality itself has become politically incorrect and therefore needs to be suppressed! I want all the information to be put on the table unchanged, untampered and unsuppressed. I want to see myself, read myself, hear myself, what's going on in my society. I want people to speak up and come forward with their intentions and motives. I want to be able to make my own conclusions and decide for myself what's appropriate and inappropriate. I want to be a constructive, informed and responsible citizen, and I don't need anybody who's telling me how to get there and who's preventing me from getting the information I need. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:03:21 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Les Deax Scalpers Kakki wrote: >Joni's latest purported hang-out, Les Deux Cafe And when can we expect the complete review and ambiance report? Can we organize another mass jmdl descent on the place, like we did at the Daily Grill? Et comment dit-on en Anglais "Les Deux"? >Around $7.50 price range (?) (Mr. Dulson help me out here) >Joni - Miles of Aisles concert I'll check my ticket stubs - that sounds about right. During the height of psychedelia there was a concert series at the Shrine Exposition Hall in LA. I saw the Crazy World of Arthur Brown, Fleetwood Mac and the Who on 6/28/68, Jeff Beck, Pink Floyd and Blue Cheer on 7/26/68, amongst others. All shows cost $3.50. But you could buy a new car then for $2,500. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:03:21 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Les Deax Scalpers Kakki wrote: >Joni's latest purported hang-out, Les Deux Cafe And when can we expect the complete review and ambiance report? Can we organize another mass jmdl descent on the place, like we did at the Daily Grill? Et comment dit-on en Anglais "Les Deux"? >Around $7.50 price range (?) (Mr. Dulson help me out here) >Joni - Miles of Aisles concert I'll check my ticket stubs - that sounds about right. During the height of psychedelia there was a concert series at the Shrine Exposition Hall in LA. I saw the Crazy World of Arthur Brown, Fleetwood Mac and the Who on 6/28/68, Jeff Beck, Pink Floyd and Blue Cheer on 7/26/68, amongst others. All shows cost $3.50. But you could buy a new car then for $2,500. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" *NEW* website at: http://www.tinkersown.com "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:36:08 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Scalping (NJC) >Although I love Kakki's tactic, beat the scalpers at their own game, you go >girl!! > >Bob, I missed Kakki's tactic. What was that? WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:02:32 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Scalping (NJC) Wait 'til show time and negotiate price based on the fact that they have to dump them quickly... ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: Scalping (NJC) Author: "Wally Kairuz" at fdinet Date: 4/15/99 1:36 PM >Although I love Kakki's tactic, beat the scalpers at their own game, you go >girl!! > >Bob, I missed Kakki's tactic. What was that? WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:09:58 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Les Deax Scalpers Mr. Dulson wrote: > >Joni's latest purported hang-out, Les Deux Cafe > > And when can we expect the complete review and ambiance report? As soon as I can actually find it! I've been by the location a couple of times and there is no obvious sign of any restaurant. I think it's one of those places where you have to know where the unmarked door is and also have a password. > Can we organize another mass jmdl descent on the place, like we > did at the Daily Grill? Yes, when I find it ;-) > Et comment dit-on en Anglais "Les Deux"? I may have a better clue when I find it ;-D > >Around $7.50 price range (?) (Mr. Dulson help me out here) > >Joni - Miles of Aisles concert > > I'll check my ticket stubs - that sounds about right. Although my ticket was a birthday present, I recall thinking it was very expensive then. Of course I made about $4.00 an hour then so it is all relative. >During the height of psychedelia there was a concert series at the Shrine > Exposition Hall in LA. I saw the Crazy World of Arthur Brown, > Fleetwood Mac and the Who on 6/28/68, Jeff Beck, Pink Floyd and > Blue Cheer on 7/26/68, amongst others. All shows cost $3.50. > But you could buy a new car then for $2,500. Ahhh, I always envy your concert history. There was a time when Blue Cheer used to play in an old WWII Quonset hut every week near my town and they would distribute those cool psychedelica flyers advertising it at my school. I always wanted to go but my friends and I were was too young (without drivers licenses). Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:06:04 +0300 From: j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi Subject: RE: BLUE on gold CD (comparisons) WallyK wrote: > I received my Gold Blue yesterday and I was soooo disappointed. It > doesn't > sound a bit better than my old CD copy. So I conducted a little > experiment. > I played my gold Tapestry and my gold Song for you against the old > versions. > I programmed the gold versions and the regular versions track by > track, so > that I could compare the CD's bit by bit [I know, I should get a > life]. In > both cases, the regular versions sounded at least as good as the gold > versions. I was bewildered until I discovered that my regular versions > are > German and not American. So maybe European pressing or mastering or > whatever > it is they do to CD's is so good in Europe that gold versions > constitute no > improvement. Don't you find the sound on American CD's not so highly > defined > as in European or Japanese releases? I wonder what Jussi and the other > Eurojmdlers think about this. I have the regular ('original'/old/normal) US and German CD pressings of "For The Roses" and "Night Ride Home" and I can't hear any difference in sound. I suspect they used same CD masters. Recently I got the U.S. HDCD version of "Court And Spark". I already had the German non-HDCD pressing of it. I was expecting the HDCD to be something out of this world after reading how crappy the 'original' CD is, how great the original vinyl sounds, etc. There is certainly improvement in sound, but not anything really radical. The overall sound is livelier and has more 'ambience' and the bass is a little more heavier, which makes it worth it I guess. The artwork is nicer than on the regular CD (which can be just as important...) My player does not have the HDCD chip. The HDCD discs are said to sound better than regular CD's even on regular players, but I guess you need a HDCD player to get everything out of those discs. I don't think there is much difference in sound depending where the CD is made these days. I've never noticed any difference in sound between USA and Europe. The earliest Japanese CD's in the 80's were probably a bit better, but I would say that today it depends more on the recording itself and how the (re-)mastering is done after that. To give an example, I bought two remasters yesterday. Duran Duran's (don't shoot me) "Greatest" (1998) is remastered, but the same tracks sound better on "Decade" (1989) which was not remastered. ABC's (don't shoot me, please) "The Lexicon Of Love" remaster is radically improved from the original 80's CD. So you never know. As a general rule, I would say remasters, HDCD's and gold CD's sound better than the original CD's, sometimes the difference is very clear, sometimes it's a matter of belief. The newer pressings are generally louder than the old ones, so that should be kept in mind if you compare the two. Take your old CD with you to the store! My "Blue" CD is the original German one and I will definitely replace it, no matter if the remasters are better or not. It sounds OK but there is an annoying mastering error. "All I Want" starts actually before '0.00' - if I want to hear the whole track I have to rewind the CD to - -0.02 and let it play from there. Grrr... - --jp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:32:29 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) Folks, I'm listening on CNN to Clinton's remarks on Kosovo. Say about his personal integrity what you will -- the man is a great politician! And, quite untypically for Americans, he understands what's going outside of the U.S. If only our European/German leaders had at least half of his political talent and insight -- and power! *Sigh* Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:49:16 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: re: PC (njc) A pox on whoever invented the term "political correctness." It's vague, hopelessly general and utterly inadequate for defining any sociological phenomena in the free world, in my opinion. Furthermore, no term that can be applied to debates as innocuous as boyfriend vs. significant other should extend to the discussion of issues with the gravity of ethnicity, race and hate speech, imo. The fact is that freedom of speech is an inalienable right in the U.S. Nevertheless, voiced insensitivity to people who are perceived as "different" from oneself, while not a crime, takes a daily toll on the psyches of people who have been victimized because of race, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion and immigration status. I believe it is a fallacy to suggest that there is some kind of movement to apply "political correctness" to everything. Where are all these people who are allegedly "pro-pc"? No such faction exists. There are however legions who are pro-sensitivity, pro-equality, and/or anti-defamation. I applaud them. - --Julius . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:00:59 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Message for Joni-Digest members - NJC Joniphiles - The Smoe server seemed to have hiccuped and missed sending out the Joni-Digest #159. It can be picked up here: http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni/v04.n159 Take care, Les ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:43:47 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Scalping(NJC) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:37:08 -0700 From: Randy Remote Scalping is legal in California, as long as you are not actually on the premises of the venue. When Joni was at San Jose with Dylan/Van, I was offered back row for $100, good seats were $300. I stayed home. What can you do when the show is sold out? Pay or stay. These pro ticket agencies hire homeless for $10 to stand in lines all day to score tickets for them. The fans get screwed again! RR Wally Kairuz wrote: > Don has just expostulated: > > >$85.00 > >FOR 30TH ROW RESERVED SEATS!! I'm sorry, but this is the worst kind > >of extortion I've seen in quite some time > > I was about to ask the list what experience they have in their respective > countries in fighting scalpers. I mean, is there anything that works? I have > just been asked $220 for a seat at the opera next Sunday. The regular price > is $110. I'm ready to start a war against this particular "agency" that even > advertises in mainstream media. I know Billy Joel and others once > implemented an initiative to wage war against scalpers. What's your > experience? Do you end up buying the tickets anyway? I could afford these > tickets, but it's the principle of it, don't you think? > WallyK, ethically challenged ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:48:12 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Remastered CDs ( NJC ) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:19:56 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Jussi (?) writes: >Today it depends more on the recording itself and how the (re-)mastering is done after that. To give an example, I bought two remasters yesterday. Duran Duran's (don't shoot me) "Greatest" (1998) is remastered, but the same tracks sound better on "Decade" (1989) which was not remastered. ABC's (don't shoot me, please) "The Lexicon Of Love" remaster is radically improved from the original 80's CD. So you never know.< I have the remastered version of the Dire Straits' album "Love Over Gold" (1984/1996). The sound is absolutely mind-blowing. This may be a highly speculative, cliche-influenced point, but I have a feeling that recordings of niche-music for smaller labels have a greater likelihood of sonic excellence than the chart-oriented mass productions. One of my best-sounding CD's is "Play On Light" by Scottish harp duo Sileas. (entire CD can be listened to with Realaudio at http://www.greenlinnet.com/catalog/albums/3126.htm ) which, like a number of Celtic albums in my collection was recorded at Castle-Cava Studio in Pencaitland, Scotland. And they all sound great. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:47:17 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: "Blind" -- a politically incorrect word? ( NJC ) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:32:43 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" I just found an article on the web that I simply have to share -- hopefully all the JC purists are already in "onlyJoni-mode". The article deals with attempts to ban the word "blind", because of its alledged political incorrectness. Surprisingly, blind people themselves don't have any problems at all being called "blind" (why indeed should they). Nevertheless, some people have decided over their heads that they should be called "visually impaired"; "people with limited eyesight" etc. etc. I highly recommend reading what blind people think of this themselves. I believe their arguments to be 100 % correct. And I reiterate my point that Poltical Correctness is bullshit and needs to be criticized whenever and wherever it rears its ugly head. Winfried, who BTW also objects to the military trying to introduce the term "collateral damage" into everyday language and believes journalists employing this term should be fired due to proven incapacity to do their job (full text at http://www.nfb.org/vsum9812.htm) Euphemisms and the politically correct language which they exemplify are sometimes only prissy, sometimes ridiculous, and sometimes tiresome. Often, however, they are more than that. At their worst they obscure clear thinking and damage the very people and causes they claim to benefit. The blind have had trouble with euphemisms for as long as anybody can remember, and late twentieth-century America is no exception. The form has changed (in fact, everything is very "politically correct"), but the old notions of inferiority and second-class status still remain. The euphemisms and the political correctness don't help. If anything, they make matters worse since they claim modern thought and new enlightenment. Here is a recent example from the Federal government: United States Department of Education Washington, D.C. May 4, 1993 Memorandum TO: Office for Civil Rights Senior Staff FROM: Jeanette J. Lim, Acting Assistant Secretary for Civil Rights SUBJECT: Language Reference to Persons with a Disability That is what the memorandum says, and if it were an isolated instance, we could shrug it off and forget it. But it isn't. It is more and more the standard thinking, and anybody who objects is subject to sanction. Well, we of the National Federation of the Blind do object, and we are doing something about it. At our recent national convention in Dallas we passed a resolution on the subject, and we plan to distribute it throughout the country and press for action on it. Here it is: Resolution 93-01 WHEREAS, the word blind accurately and clearly describes the condition of being unable to see, as well as the condition of having such limited eyesight that alternative techniques are required to do efficiently the ordinary tasks of daily living that are performed visually by those having good eyesight; and WHEREAS, there is increasing pressure in certain circles to use a variety of euphemisms in referring to blindness or blind persons--euphemisms such as hard of seeing, visually challenged, sightless, visually impaired, people with blindness, people who are blind, and the like; and WHEREAS, a differentiation must be made among these euphemisms: some (such as hard of seeing, visually challenged, and people with blindness) being totally unacceptable and deserving only ridicule because of their strained and ludicrous attempt to avoid such straightforward, respectable words as blindness, blind, the blind, blind person, or blind persons; others (such as visually impaired, and visually limited) being undesirable when used to avoid the word blind, and acceptable only to the extent that they are reasonably employed to distinguish between those having a certain amount of eyesight and those having none; still others (such as sightless) being awkward and serving no useful purpose; and still others (such as people who are blind or persons who are blind) being harmless and not objectionable when used in occasional and ordinary speech but being totally unacceptable and pernicious when used as a form of political correctness to imply that the word person must invariably precede the word blind to emphasize the fact that a blind person is first and foremost a person; and WHEREAS, this euphemism concerning people or persons who are blind--when used in its recent trendy, politically correct form-- does the exact opposite of what it purports to do since it is overly defensive, implies shame instead of true equality, and portrays the blind as touchy and belligerent; and WHEREAS, just as an intelligent person is willing to be so designated and does not insist upon being called a person who is intelligent and a group of bankers are happy to be called bankers and have no concern that they be referred to as persons who are in the banking business, so it is with the blind--the only difference being that some people (blind and sighted alike) continue to cling to the outmoded notion that blindness (along with everything associated with it) connotes inferiority and lack of status; now, therefore, BE IT RESOLVED by the National Federation of the Blind in convention assembled in the city of Dallas, Texas, this 9th day of July, 1993, that the following statement of policy be adopted: "We believe that it is respectable to be blind, and although we have no particular pride in the fact of our blindness, neither do we have any shame in it. To the extent that euphemisms are used to convey any other concept or image, we deplore such use. We can make our own way in the world on equal terms with others, and we intend to do it." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:44:25 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: PC (njc) People are mistaken when they believe that there is no PC constituency. there is. They happen to exist in several important places, the media , the political establishment and the educational establishment. To some extent they also inhabit the judicial establishment. We get all kinds of laws (and attempted laws) from the legislative establishment mostly from one side of the politcal spectrum which shall go unnamed. My kids are BOMBARDED daily with PC in school even organized into class studies WITH GRADES. lastly we have judges who daily enhance punishment(s) flavored with PC interpretations. The constituency is small but potent because they control so much of what one would call our universal contemporary culture. Two other places they influence are the mass media and Hollywood. Tell me Hollywood and Norman Lears TV empire aren't PC. So the PC extablishment is not great in numbers but enormous in influence. IMHO. For those who wonder how it seems to grow in influence without a seemingly large constituency, that is how. marcel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:47:25 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: PC (njc) JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: > A pox on whoever invented the term "political correctness." It's vague, > hopelessly general and utterly inadequate for defining any sociological > phenomena in the free world, in my opinion. I think this term is quite revealing as to the nature of the phenomenon. A statement relating to facts is either correct or incorrect (true or false) As to denote sensitivity/appropriateness or lack thereof in a given situation, the words "tasteful/tasteless" would be applicable and sufficient to get the message across. But that is probably too simple and too insignificant to reflect the "higher morality" of the politically correct language police. > I believe it is a fallacy to suggest that there is some kind of movement to > apply "political correctness" to everything. Where are all these people who > are allegedly "pro-pc"? No such faction exists. There are however legions > who are pro-sensitivity, pro-equality, and/or anti-defamation. I applaud > them. > And you have all the reason to do so. I applaud them, too, as long as they use arguments and reason to support their good causes and refrain from messing with the language by redefining words and telling other people that their previously common, neutral and widely accepted usage suddenly is unacceptable. In fact, this is exactly what George Orwell called "newspeak" and rightly criticized as a totalitarian measure. It is simply a matter of politeness to call a person how that person wants to be called. To call an "African American" a "nigger" is simply slander, as everybody knows this term to convey a derogative and hurtful meaning. The word "black" originally had no such derogative meaning, but the consensus now seems to be that it does. Has the social situation of "African Americans" been improved by calling them "African Americans" instead of "blacks"? I don't think so. I am a wheelchair user, and I don't care whether people call me "handicapped", "disabled" (both of which are supposed to be politically incorrect), or "a person with a disability", or "person with a mobility impairment". This whole practice of using euphemisms is so stupid and senseless. Obviously, I AM handicapped, because I can't climb stairs, which able-bodied people easily can. The truth can never be incorrect. Nevertheless, this is what PCness is trying to suggest to people. Calling a person who cannot see "blind" is supposed to be unacceptable nowadays -- "visually impaired" is to be used instead. What nonsense. What I care about is to be given the same opportunities as everybody else when applying for a job that I'm qualified for, to have a wheelchair accessible restroom when going to the pub etc. etc. This is what's important, and this is what I will fight for. I agree, there is no PC-"movement", as most people are following these rules without really thinking about what is going on and that their minds are being manipulated. IMO it is more like a silly fashion -- like, for instance, inline skates. Everybody buys a pair because the neighbor also bought one... People know how to skate, but they don't know how and where to stop... ;-) Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:08:35 -0400 From: patrick leader Subject: RE: pc stuff (njc) hey bob, you wrote: >Patrick spewed: and you're absolutely right, and i apologize. to everyone. i don't like to sound angry, and i hate to think my point got lost. >Having read and re-read and re-read what I wrote, I don't see any misinformation, i'm leaving the others off because you're right. 1. The man had to resign his post (even if driven by his own convictions) 2. He used the word "niggardly" correctly 3. The word was offensive to some it just seems incomplete. he offered his resignation immediately, he hadn't been asked to resign. he was deeply grieved to have given offense, even though he knew he had used the word correctly. and he had his job back in three or four days. these do not seem insignificant, they seem like more than half of the story. this guy is a bit of a hero to me for his behaviour, and that was lost in the fragment you and gina and others spoke of. i know you didn't do it purposefully (thanks for reminding me, winfried), but still, a complex story was reduced to a soundbite, and you contributed. really, the biggest horror about pc-ness, as it's been described on this list, seems to be that one has to think before speaking. has to show consideration. this is a bad thing? i'm going to quote julius here, cause this knocks me out: >I believe it is a fallacy to suggest that there is some kind of movement to apply "political correctness" to everything. Where are all these people who are allegedly "pro-pc"? No such faction exists. There are however legions who are pro-sensitivity, pro-equality, and/or anti-defamation. I applaud them. David Howard is clearly pro-sensitivity. not some victim of drive-by pc-ness. patrick np - couple of songs from mellon collie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:24:58 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: PC (njc) Julius, referring to my prior post wrote: > Furthermore, no term that can be applied to debates as innocuous as boyfriend vs. significant other >should extend to the discussion of issues with the gravity of ethnicity, race and > hate speech, imo. Julius, I hope you understand that was my whole point. If not, I'm sorry for being unclear. What I'm getting out of this thread essentially is that we are all in agreement that hate speech should always be protested but some people take it way too far and thereby trivialize and dilute the original meaning and purpose. I think where people are perhaps misunderstanding each other is that some think it is ridiculous to jump on innocuous words and contrive some meaning to them that does not exist. It tends to make a mockery out of it all and it is very Orwellian. It's like "crying wolf" one too many times. You jump on everything and eventually no one will listen to anything, or there is risk that there will be a backlash and the pendulum will swing to the other extreme where people will be demanding their rights for unadulterated, uncensored "free speech" in whatever form that may take. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:39:42 EDT From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: pc stuff (njc) In a message dated 4/15/99 7:10:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, trxschwa@bway.net writes: > these do not seem insignificant, they seem > like more than half of the story. this guy is a bit of a hero to me for > his behaviour, and that was lost in the fragment you and gina and others > spoke of. i know you didn't do it purposefully (thanks for reminding me, > winfried), but still, a complex story was reduced to a soundbite, and you > contributed. Patrick, You've made me think and I thank you. I reacted in agreement without really thinking about the details of what could have been behind that resignation. I still believe that the spirit with which some us have spoken on this issue is sincere and I am in complete agreement with Winfried and Bob's ( and others) stand on the whole issue of PC. Perhaps we over reacted, but let's not miss the forest for the trees. I still think there is a very real and viable argument against PC. I have seen people swallowed practically whole in discussions where their opinions were sincere and an attempt was being made by them to acknowledge their prejudices. Once when I was at a racial awareness workshop, a woman who attempted to discuss her racist father's negative influence on her upbringing (which she disagreed with) was met with dirty looks and with people literally walking out while she spoke. I'm not sure who this "faction" of PC folk is either but a monster has been created, in my opinion. I think the original intent of this thread has been somewhat lost because we didn't stop to think out what the whole "niggardly" story had behind it, but let's not lose sight of what it is we are really talking about. Gina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:51:11 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: BLUE on gold CD In a message dated 4/15/1999 1:36:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, guitarzan@saber.net writes: << Interesting question, and I do not have enough of a mix of US vs European CD's to answer. In terms of vinyl, however, US versions have historically been inferior. Japanese and German pressings seemed to be the best, by far. That is, unless the >> I would have to agree with you there. English and Japanese imports are far superior then american pressings as far as records go. That is why way back when I got Joni first 4 albums on Japanese Import. Only played once! They were the only three they carried at the time. I got Blue on Japanese import. When I get my gold CD I will do a test to see which sounds bettergold or Japanese pressing! Catgirl...NP: Tea leaf prophecy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:07:06 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Scalping (NJC) In a message dated 4/15/1999 9:12:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << Wally, whether it's ethics or simply because I'm a cheap so-and-so, I've never bought from scalpers and never will. If I can't get tickets to something I want to see legitimately, life goes on, ya know? Although I love Kakki's tactic, beat the scalpers at their own game, you go girl!! >> I must agree with Kakki,it does work. Well it did for me once. I went and saw the Indigo girls years ago and got great tix right outside the gate cheaper then at the door. the seats were great. Was a little nervous that they were fake but they weren't! Catgirl NP: Snakes and ladders ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:00:17 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Clinton's Remarks on Kosovo ( NJC ) Winfried wrote: > I'm listening on CNN to Clinton's remarks on Kosovo. Say about his > personal integrity what you will -- the man is a great politician! And, > quite untypically for Americans, he understands what's going outside of > the U.S. Winfried dear, please give some credit to those untypical Americans who are paying for all this. We've almost depleted our supply of missiles and I've heard the government is dipping into our Social Security funds to help finance this effort. > If only our European/German leaders had at least half of his > political talent and insight -- and power! *Sigh* I heard a news report (perhaps erroneous?) that Germany was one of the most supportive European countries in this matter. Kakki, war-weary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:14:51 EDT From: CaTGirl627@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Concerts Should Be Like This ...NJC In a message dated 4/15/1999 10:15:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe@hotmail.com writes: << A friend of mine reports back from last night's "An Evening With Neil Young". This is his one-man all acoustic show ... in many ways similar to the opening of Joni's last show. So at the venue, liquor was served only at intermissions and was not allowed in the theatre, and there was no seating EXCEPT at breaks and in between songs so as not to disturb the quiet ambience of the solo playing. Now I ask, had these been the rules for the recent Joni tour ... how much more enjoyable would it have been? I can only just imagine! Don Rowe >> I am curious to know where Neil played at. I know alot of smaller venues will give the audience the respect that you mentioned above...like a theatre. Once you get bigger then that it can be hard. I saw Fripp and his band called Projeckt 2 at the Ballroom at the Bellvue, you could move around during breaks and in between songs too. I would love to see Neil again in a small venue doing all acoustic! Catgirl NP The reoccuring dream ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:16:34 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: PC (njc) The more I hear of your argument, the more I disagree. This notion that politically correct language police exist is patently absurd to me. The idea that there is some conspiracy to force people to speak a certain way is equally ridiculous. Your position seems to boil down to a defense of the status quo. I can't support that, but at this point I'm prepared to agree to disagree to maintain decorum here on the list. <> There is nothing simple about the effect of that word, and you know which one I mean, on the person it is directed at. Yes, it is derogatory and hurtful, but that doesn't make it "slander," as that requires the utterance of false charges which defame and damage another's reputation. There is no criminal or civil remedy for its hateful use, unfortunately, unless it is used in conjunction with physical violence. You really should be more careful in ascribing opinions to other people whose condition you clearly have no understanding of. No reasonable person would be offended by a well-meaning individual using the term "black" as opposed to "African-American." Moreover, not all African Americans are black, nor do all blacks in the U.S. consider themselves African American. <> As a black African American who was alive when "Negro" and "Colored" were the prevalent labels, I can tell you unequivocally that there was a marked improvement in the social situation when James Brown released "Say It Loud (I'm Black and I'm Proud)" in the 60s. The term African American has had a similar esteem building effect, since it emphasises African heritage, now a source of pride for many. Also, you have to be careful not to confuse a causal relationship with a temporal sequence. Consider the possibility that *because* the social situation has improved for black Americans we are now more empowered to refer to ourselves as African-American if we wish. I can agree that equal opportunity for everyone should be the goal, but until everyone is sensitive to the perspective of people that are different from themselves, and communicate accordingly and thus topple the norm/other paradigm, the goal will never be realized. - -Julius ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #161 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! 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