From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #114 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, March 11 1999 Volume 04 : Number 114 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Takes on Joni Mitchell ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #113 [Evan + Vanessa Thomson ] A Conversation with Joni Mitchell [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] RE: Sam Cooke covers (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: HOOKS [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell ["Don Rowe" ] Attention guitarists: My Best To You [M.Russell@iaea.org] Painting with Words and Music ["Phil Klein" ] Gotta sell my Joni vinyl [Guy Brown ] Re: Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell ["Kakki" ] Re[2]: Sam Cooke covers (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: A jmdl game -- Find the Hooks! [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Today in Joni History - March 11 [Today in Joni History ] Re: A Conversation with Joni Mitchell [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: A jmdl game -- Find the Hooks! ["Don Rowe" ] Everybody has a DED ["Don Rowe" ] RE: Everybody has a DED [Michael Yarbrough ] RE: Everybody has a DED ["Don Rowe" ] Re[2]: A Conversation with Joni Mitchell [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: A Hook is not always a hook ?! [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Re[2]: Sam Cooke covers (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Mp3's (NJC) [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Short Digests (NJC) [Strummed@aol.com] Re[2]: A Hook is not always a hook ?! (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Joni as modern day Debussy ["Kakki" ] (NJC) Dusty tribute [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #113 [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: A jmdl game -- Find the Hooks! [LRFye@aol.com] Re: A jmdl game -- Find the Hooks! [Ginamu@aol.com] Incongruous purchases ["Wally Kairuz" ] Hooks [Scott Price ] Re: Re[2]: A Hook is not always a hook ?! (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] joni-the-painter-first [Siqwomb@aol.com] Re: HOOKS [Evan + Vanessa Thomson ] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #113 [Evan + Vanessa Thomson ] Jonatha Brooke, Emmylou & NJC [Anne Madden ] NJC - Sam Cooke and other covers ["Helen M. Adcock" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:12:27 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: Takes on Joni Mitchell 1st of all: welcome david lahm! both david and bob muller [the latter wrote: '"Plus I always find myself singing along with the record, adding harmonies that aren't otherwise there. Does anybody else do this? It's hard for me to sing these melodies straight on as I've been singing these invented harmonies for so long..."] addressed the urge some of us have to make joni's music our own by giving it our personal flavor or whatever it is. i feel exactly the same as bob, i can't sing or play joni's music if it's not the way i hear it inside. i think joni has moved on to a mystical level within me in that i take her art as a kind of liturgy and her songs as rituals that change as i grow old and forget what they originally meant to me, much like communities which forget the original meanings of their ceremonies as they perform them throughout the centuries, but they stick to them for the new meanings and forms they acquire. of course i don't mean i "correct" or edit joni, but sometimes it feels as though i were saying "i wouldn't put it that way". wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:49:44 +1000 From: Evan + Vanessa Thomson Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #113 >> Randy mused: >> >> **Consensus on "Hejira" is that it is probably the most highly >> regarded of Joni's albums, rightly so. Common wisdom on writing songs >> is that a song has to have a "hook", a repeating chorus to make the >> tune memorable, yet the songs on this album mostly do not. ** >> > I'm one of the ones that have trouble connecting to this album. My favourite album is Blue... but I do find that there's one particular song that really sticks in my mind. Amelia. This song, for a number of reasons draws me in and I find it difficult to banish it from my mind for days ... especially the way she drawls, "Oh Amelia, it was just a false alarm" I feel that this is a hook. Naturally not in the conventional 'jingle' sense. Perhaps the starkness of the album, the atmospheric music painting really highlights the lyrics. Her vocals and the nuances are much more apparent on this album I feel. I rarely have a mondegreen in regards to this album. Her voice is an instrument that manages to convey an incredible range of emotions with just an inflection. Her use of phrasing also appeals to me. For me, it's very much a 'listening' album. Storytelling that invites you to participate and to think. I prefer the emotional rawness of Blue. I find I can lose myself and just let myself be swept away when I listen to Blue. No thinking just feeling. Although Blue is for me, a very painful and personal experience, it is a very uplifting record. Perhaps because it's early in her career and you discover that despite her heartache she 'does' recover. Life does go one and life does improve... Happiness is the Best Facelift! So I hope that helps... >> >> >> >> Most of the hooks for me on Hejira are vocal or associated with Jaco's >> Bass. Shoot, the first time I heard the record when it came out, I >> didn't know what the instrument was, it was so radical! I thought it >> was some kind of wacky woodwind or something! >> >> I guess I agree with Bob... it very much is a vocal perforamnce and because her >> music is more abstract and complex than the conventional radio friendly song... >> the hooks are in essence her lyrics. > >> >> Bob > > Ness feeling very weary after a long day... so it may not make sense. N.P. Tori Amos "Icicle" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:43:19 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: A Conversation with Joni Mitchell Hey All- As I had posted earlier, I cajoled (by means of making a pledge) a CD from my local Public Radio station WNCW of the Reprise Promo Interview Disc. It's the one Wally advertised on the homepage with the painting of Joni paddling a canoe with her hair in a braid. It's a pretty painting but the eyes aren't quite right - it looks like she has a lazy eye, plus the expression makes her look like the "Mean Lady of the Lake", which she certainly isn't... Anyway, the disc runs 69:10. Is it going to be a part of the next tree? I'll be glad to tape it for whoever wants to send me a blank and postage. Here are the contents: A Conversation with Joni Mitchell Interview Producer and Interviewer: Jody Denberg, Program Director for 107.1 KGSR Radio Austin. Recorded at the Hotel Bel Air, September 9, 1998: 1. Harlem in Havana (4:25) 2. Joni tells the story behind "Harlem In Havana," why she didn't retire, her health, and her VG8 guitar. Also, the post-Turbulent Indigo resurgence, the press, and writing songs for TTT. (16:13) 3. The Crazy Cries of Love (3:54) 4. Conversation about Janet Jackson's "Got 'Til It's Gone," being forced to compete with other females in the pop arena, disposable music and the airwaves. (8:47) 5. Taming The Tiger (4:18) 6. Painting vs. writing and a talk about guitar tunings. Also, Joni on her old songs, Hits & Misses, her Mom, and "Face Lift". (11:19) 7. Face Lift (4:41) 8. Joni on the road with Bob Dylan and Van Morrison, working with ex-husband Larry Klein, singing covers, playing Woodstock, writing a book and meeting her daughter Kilauren. (9:41) 9. Stay In Touch (2:59) 10. My Best to You (2:52) 11. Joni talks about meeting some of her best fans in Atlanta, especially one 40-ish man who she fell madly in love with. (OK, I made this one up...early April Fools :~D) Bob NP: Track #6 from above list ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:56:52 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell David writes: **This is my first posting; it's late and I won't say much. Happy to be in contact with those profoundly moved by Joni Mitchell's music.** Welcome David! The more the merrier! **Because I have been a jazz musician since my teen years (1957), my own response has been to make an instrumental jazz CD of 8 Mitchell songs. Arkadia Records, in NY City, is releasing it this spring as "David Lahm: Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell."** Please let us know when this will be available...which songs do you do on the record? What instrument(s) do you play? **I am looking forward to the unpredictavle, uncontrollabe reactions people will have to these interpretations. In my next post, I will tell you what happened when a radio interviewer heard "Coyote."** I'll be awaiting it! I enjoyed a Woody Herman record that did Big Band jazz arrangements of Steely Dan's music, jazz probably lends itself to more creative covers as it can really examine melodies, time structures, etc. Plus, I'm a sucker for covers, unless someone tries to cover a Sam Cooke song... Bob NP: (Now Playing) Joni talking about Van Morrison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:48:48 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Sam Cooke covers (NJC) Bob M. wrote: <<>> So let me guess--you can't stand Aretha's _I Never Loved a Man the Way I Loved You_. After all, it has not one, but *TWO* Sam Cooke covers. Aaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!! Just who does that Aretha think she is anyway? ;-) - --Michael NP: Sarah Vaughan, _Dreamy_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:53:50 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: HOOKS I dont know what debate is on this. A "hook" in a song is not some vague concept. Some of the parts of songs some of the posters have considered to be hooks aren't. A hook is simply the repeating signiture either instrumental (The sax line in Men at Works "who can it be now") or vocal (Pa Pa OOh Mow Mow) . The Hook in Amelia is the line "It was just a false alarm". There may be other less catchy parts of a song but the hook is THEE main repeated line. my 2cents. md ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:01:18 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell Hi David, and welcome to the jmdl -- after Joni's recent appearances with Kyle Eastwood and Herbie Hancock -- I really can't wait to "have the tables turned" on her so to speak. Any idea what the distribution for your collection will be? As a denizen of the Midwest (St. Louis), I am imagining that your CD may be difficult to find locally. Are you listing on the Internet at all? Please let us know, since I think I speak for many of us when I say that interest will be quite high. Looking forward to it, and best of luck! Don Rowe n.p. Paul Westerberg -- "Suicaine Gratifaction" Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:56:56 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Attention guitarists: My Best To You Just a quick note to let you all know that I added an arrangement of My Best To You to the Guitar site today. It's not exactly like Joni's piano, but you can play along with the record and it sounds okay. The tuning is also not a Joni tuning!!! So this is an arrangement, which I think sounds nice on its own, rather than an exact rendition. I think I got the key right. If you find that it's off by a fret or two vis a vis the recording, please let me know ASAP and I will change it. Hope you enjoy it. Let me know what you think! Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:51:55 GMT From: "Phil Klein" Subject: Painting with Words and Music I'm not sure if everybody on this side of the pond already knows this, but the Painting with.. video is already in the shops in the UK. Yesterday, I went to HMV, suitably disguised, to buy a Boyzone CD, for my wife for her birthday (she likes Boyzone, on the grounds that they make nice tunes, and seem like nice boys who are kind to their mothers. Is there any hope for this woman?). Anyway, I was taking the CD to the counter, and suddenly I glanced up at the video rack to see multiple Jonis looking at me, and laughing. Aaarghh! I bought a Boyzone CD, and Joni saw me!! I'll never live it down! Genuine junk food for juveniles! (Or, in this case, for a 32-year old mother of two). Anyway, the video is number 23 in the top 30. Naturally I bought it. I would be interested in hearing peoples comments about the sound quality on the video. It may be I have a dud tape, or my heads need a good clean, but the sound level seems very low, and rather muffled. In particular, the vocals are very indistinct in places. Is this just the way it is? Phil P.S. Question - can anybody top my Boyzone/Painting with Words and Music package for the most incongruous multiple music purchase involving Joni? (And no cheating - e.g. you can't buy Teletubbies say E'oh and TTT, and take the Teletubbies back the next day). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:58:06 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: A jmdl game -- Find the Hooks! Marcel is quite correct in writing ... >A hook is simply the repeating signiture either instrumental >(The sax line in Men at Works "who can it be now") or vocal (Pa Pa OOh Mow >Mow) . The Hook in Amelia is the line "It was just a false alarm". So that being said, "where are Hejira's hooks?" I'll start the festivities and say that in "Song for Sharon", the magnificently ornate figure between the guitar and bass that punctuates the verses is the hook. Don Rowe Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:30:14 -0800 From: Guy Brown Subject: Gotta sell my Joni vinyl Facing a financial crisis, I've decided to sell my vinyl collection (some 8k pieces). A reputable buyer is visiting tomorrow but it seems pointless to let him sweep up all my Joni pieces since he probably won't have as much appreciation for Joni as you guys. Thus the highest bidder on any of these pieces within 24 hours gets to save these obscurities from the LA vinyl market. email me off list please guyb@rain.org. Grading is by strict 'Record Collector' standards. email me for a copy of those. 7" Single: You turn me on I'm a radio / Urge for Going. Asylum (US) S-11010. 1973. Very Good 7" Single: Shiny Toys / The 3 Great stimulants. Geffen(US) 28675. 1985. Picture sleeve. Excellent 7" Single: My Secret Place (edit) / Number One. Geffen (UK) GEF 37. 1988. Picture sleeve. Mint 7" Single: (You're so square) baby I don't care / Love. Geffen (US) 29849. 1982 Picture sleeve. Mint(record)/Excellent(sleeve). Album: The 1969 Warner Reprise Record Show, contains two short Joni spoken word pieces: 'My American Skirt' and 'Spooney's Wonderful adventure'. PRO336 1969. Mint(record)/Excellent(sleeve) Album: The Posall and the Mosalm. Vibrator Records (sic) 165. Blue marbled vinyl. 197x. Mint(record) {or as good as it ever was} / Very Good(sleeve) {has loose sleeve insert taped to white cover} Album: Warner Bros. Music Show. Geffen WBMS 131. 1985. Promo 30 min interview for 'Dog Eat Dog'. Mint(record)/ Excellent(cover) I've got all the other basic catalog on vinyl, but these seem to be the rarer items. Thanks GUY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:32:38 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell Welcome David! This is a neat surprise. A friend was inspired to learn music, bought a Roland, and started playing piano about 6 years ago because of you and Joe Sample, his musical idols. He raves about you and one night played me your CDs and insisted I borrow them and listen to them some more. The music is very gorgeous. I notice that your "Jazz Takes" is available through CDNow but appears to be the only one of your CDs available through them. Where could we obtain your other music? Kakki >Because I have been a jazz musician since my teen years (1957), my own response has been to >make an instrumental jazz CD of 8 Mitchell songs. Arkadia Records, in NY City, >is releasing it this spring as "David Lahm: Jazz Takes on Joni Mitchell." I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:53:37 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Sam Cooke covers (NJC) Michael retorted: **So let me guess--you can't stand Aretha's _I Never Loved a Man the Way I Loved You_. After all, it has not one, but *TWO* Sam Cooke covers. Aaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!** I won't say that I can't stand them, but I *can* say I like Sam's versions better! :~) I stand by my original statement...strangely enough, I can't make the same claim about Joni as I like Bonnie Raitt's "Midway" better than Joni's...of course, I haven't heard every song that's ever been recorded, but I have heard a mess of 'em! Bob NP: Van Halen "Women & Children First" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:03:37 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: A jmdl game -- Find the Hooks! Don's reply: <A hook is simply the repeating signiture either instrumental >(The sax line in Men at Works "who can it be now") or vocal (Pa Pa OOh Mow >Mow) . The Hook in Amelia is the line "It was just a false alarm".>> Don, to be "correct" you should say "I agree with Marcel's opinion..." Because that's what the discussion about hooks is. Sure, many choruses and repeated phrases are hooks, but a hook doesn't necessarily have to be repeated to be a hook. By definition, a "hook" is what you associate with the tune, so that Eddie Van Halen's solo in Michael Jackson's "Beat It", for instance, is a hook. By either definition, Hejira has as many hooks as a Redneck's tackle box. Anyway, since I'm contradicting the thread here I'll shut up, I've already put in more than my 2 cents as it is. Bob, call me either Captain Hook or a Lost Boy... NP: Eric Clapton, "Motherless Children" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:28:00 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - March 11 1970: Joni wins the Best Folk Performance category for Clouds at the 12th annual Grammy Awards. 1972: Today, future jimdler Steve Dulson snaps a great shot of Joni performing at the Berkeley Community Theater. See the photo at: http://members.aol.com/tinkerjoni/joni.html - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:44:29 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: A Conversation with Joni Mitchell In a message dated 3/10/99 9:06:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << 11. Joni talks about meeting some of her best fans in Atlanta, especially one 40-ish man who she fell madly in love with. (OK, I made this one up...early April Fools :~D) Bob >> That must have been ME since we already know she likes Jewish guys! LOL. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:12:23 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: A jmdl game -- Find the Hooks! I'm going to have to stand my ground on this one a little bit, since my alter-ego is that of a struggling songwriter attempting to get a publishing contract. My support of Marcel's definition was based on that aspect of my experience ... in short, it's what folks in the business are looking for, and what they mean when they say the word "hook". When they ask the dreaded question "Where's the hook?", they mean that they didn't see or hear that repetitive lyrical or instrumental figure which will draw the listener in. So from that POV, the publishing folks I've talked to would much sooner point to Eddie Van Halen's keyboard figure in "Jump" as a *hook* than they would to his *guitar solo* in "Beat It." In the end, it's a matter of linguistics more than opinion, and whose language you're speaking at the time -- as it is with most things. Don Rowe Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:38:42 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Everybody has a DED It was the 80s and synths were eating bands all over the world, in all genres of music. Don't believe it? Well consider the following artists who have a "Dog Eat Dog", suddenly synth-heavy album, in their catalog - -- "Go Insane" -- Lindsey Buckingham's DED "Now and Zen" -- Robert Plant's DED "Get Close" -- The Pretenders' DED "Press to Play" -- Paul McCartney's DED "Let Me Up I've Had Enough" -- Tom Petty's DED "Rock A Little" -- Stevie Nicks' DED "Behind the Sun" -- Eric Clapton's DED "White City" -- Pete Townsend's DED "90125" -- Yes' DED "Eye of the Zombie" -- John Fogerty's DED "Building the Perfect Beast" -- Don Henley's DED "Security" -- Peter Gabriel's DED "Synchronicity" -- The Police's DED "Tunnel of Love" -- Bruce Springsteen's DED Okay, so that's not everybody, but I'll bet the jmdl can offer up quite a few more examples ... yes? Have at it! :-) Don Rowe Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:51:20 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Everybody has a DED Don Rowe wrote: <<>> Didn't both Neil Young and Lou Reed have one as well? I'm not super-familiar with either's catalog, so I could be wrong, but I don't think that I am (this time). - --Michael NP: Air, _Moon Safari_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:55:27 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: RE: Everybody has a DED Michael writes ... >Didn't both Neil Young and Lou Reed have one as well? I'm >not super-familiar with either's catalog, so I could be wrong, >but I don't think that I am (this time). > Don't know about Lou -- but Neil Young's DED would have to be "Trans". And while I'm at it, don't forget U2's DED -- "The Joshua Tree." :-) Don Rowe Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:58:16 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: A Conversation with Joni Mitchell Paul replies: **That must have been ME since we already know she likes Jewish guys! LOL.** But of course, Paul! I'm already spoken for and Hairfarmer's too young! :~) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:03:11 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: A Hook is not always a hook ?! sorry bob but van halens solo is far from being a hook. if i asked you to sing/repeat his solo you probably couldnt.The term 'hook' is descriptively real. Its the thing you find yourself singing after you hear the song. You inadvertently get hooked. An instrumental hook along your line would be the signiture note line from "My Sharona" which Ill bet you CAN sing. regards. marcel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:06:03 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Sam Cooke covers (NJC) "I never loved a man" by Aretha is one of the best songs ever ever ever made. The beginning gives me chills every time I hear it and it was another song I made an entire side of a tape of. Thanks for making me remember it. marcel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:31:18 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Mp3's (NJC) Ok, I guess this would be fine then. As long as someone doesn't download the MP3s then puts them on a disc. I once bid on a DMB CD that I had thought been released by the group but I later found out that it was a bootleg duplicated many times. It makes me very angry that eBay has all these guidelines about selling illegal items on their site yet they could care less about bootlegs. Mark, I guess I'm back! :-) NPIMH-Robert Plant At 9:33 PM -0600 3/9/99, Michael Paz wrote: > Hi Mark- > Below is the title off the page that I refered to: > > January 20, 1999 - Virginia Tech - Blacksburg, > VA > > Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds > > I am not aware that this particular show is released as a live album > from any label. I did see some info regarding Dave's position on taping > his shows. According to the article I read (in a para-phrased nut > shell), he does allow taping and trading of his music, but frowns on > anyone profiting from the sale or duplication of such. Thanks for the > info though. ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:30:29 EST From: Strummed@aol.com Subject: Re: Short Digests (NJC) Yeah me 2. i was away for 3 days and had 223 e-mails mostly posts. it seems to me by my narrow but astute observation that the posts have been thinning out. good weather here or what? everybody visitng paprika plains? i'm not getting any postcards. what have i done to offend? another artits suffering on account of his art? i hate blues you know. Chri$. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:32:17 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: A Hook is not always a hook ?! (NJC) Marcel forces me to speak again by saying: <> Well, you know, I guess it depends on how you define a hook. Personally, I got hooked more on the solo in "Beat It" than the chorus. I don't think you have to be able to sing it, but I do think you have to recognize it to realize you're hooked. You ever hear one of those radio contests where you hear a couple of nanoseconds of a song and you have to name the recording? It's because you're 'hooked' that you can do it! (I'm not talking about "Name That Tune" btw) So I totally agree that sometimes you get inadvertantly hooked, so at least we can agree on that! :~) To summarize: In *my* mind, a hook is not always: 1. Repeated in a song; 2. Singable And what hooks you is obviously different and that's absolutely OK! << An instrumental hook along your line would be the signiture note line from "My Sharona" which Ill bet you CAN sing. >> Ummmmm, let's see....Dodda Dodda dot dot dot dot dot dot Dodda Dodda dot dot - My Sharona! Yep, you win your bet!! Bob NP: William Clarke "Lonesome Bedroom Blues" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:25:21 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Joni as modern day Debussy After the light bulb went on for me in the Joni-Debussy comparison, I found some fascinating web pages on him that may be of interest to some of you. He has been variously called the father of music impressionism (although he vehemently disputed the "impressionist" label), and one of the fathers of jazz and world music. Some of these links provide sound samples. The variety of his music is impressive, just like Joni's. Kakki http://mars.acs.oakland.edu/~stsai/debussy/ http://world.std.com/~albright/Deb.html http://www.mcs.csuhayward.edu/~malek/Musician/Debussy.html http://www.hnh.com/composer/debussy.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 17:43:47 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: (NJC) Dusty tribute I write with moist eyes, having just read this lyrical and forthright Village Voice tribute to Dusty Springfield by Barry Walters: http://www.villagevoice.com/arts/9910/walters.shtml - --Michael NP: John Forte, _Poly Sci_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:43:48 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #113 In a message dated 3/10/99 8:43:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, evanessa@mira.net writes: > but I do find that there's one particular song that really sticks in my > mind. Amelia. This song, for a number of reasons draws me in and I find it > difficult to banish it from my mind for days ... especially the way she > drawls, "Oh > Amelia, it was just a false alarm" > Vanessa, Amelia is the song that first drew me in to Joni. I was surfing the dial one night in my teenage-hood and came upon a station that kept playing one good song after another and heard Amelia. Thankfully the announcer said who the artist was and I went out the next morning to a record store to find Hejira. I was mystified, intrigued, and as it turns out, blessed by the first listening of Amelia. Hejira saved my life and continues to be a refuge for me again and again. Ok...well...I'm really too moved now to carry on any further and reveal all those brittle little skeletons in my closet. Anyway, I never thought about what in Amelia was the "hook". I think the graceful, flawless vocals, the originality of the lyrics and the overall moodiness of the composition really grabbed me at a time when I needed to feel that there was some hope for innovation and art in contemporary music. People will tell you where they've gone They'll tell you where to go But 'till you get there yourself you never really know Gina NP: Fresh Air interview with people who worked with Alfred Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:58:17 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: A jmdl game -- Find the Hooks! Bob M. signed off with: > Bob, call me either Captain Hook or a Lost Boy... How about "A Strange Boy"? ; ) Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:01:28 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: A jmdl game -- Find the Hooks! In a message dated 3/10/99 11:01:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, dgrowe@hotmail.com writes: > >A hook is simply the repeating signature either instrumental > >(The sax line in Men at Works "who can it be now") or vocal (Pa Pa OOh > Mow > >Mow) . The Hook in Amelia is the line "It was just a false alarm". > I find it much more fun to view hooks as the qualities that draw me in, correct or not. I don't think that conventional definitions of *anything* qualify when it comes to my appreciation of Joni's music, as she is anything but conventional. You can all have it out about what a hook *really* is. I truly enjoyed Vanessa's post on this subject. Smiles to all, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:46:05 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: Incongruous purchases Phil wrote: P.S. Question - can anybody top my Boyzone/Painting with Words and Music package for the most incongruous multiple music purchase involving Joni? Synchronicity! This one doesn't involve Joni, but only yesterday I bought the remastered version of A Song for You by The Carpenters together with ... Trilogy by Emerson, Lake and Palmer. The check out guy at Tower asked which one I wanted gift wrapped. WallyK, NP Relayer by Yes. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:09:52 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Hooks I have enjoyed the posts regarding musical hooks and wish to offer my own opinion, which is that Joni's compositions usually transcend the traditional sequences whose intention is to "hook" the listener. Her songs are not designed to be "catchy." While I do enjoy breaking down her music into individual lyrics, bars, riffs, vocal nuances and notes, to me it's more about the overall feel of the music; the chord progressions and how the song fits in with the entire album. She is a master when it comes to arranging each track so that they all give the album a distinctive feel. To me it's like each album has a general theme, whether it's Blue's "confessions," Hejira's "road trip," WTRF's budding love affair with Klein, or TTT's record "biz" bitterness. When viewed this way, with each layer and each song blending in together, it leaves me with very few impressions of hooks. Rather it is a sense of all the parts mixed in to make a whole piece of music, as opposed to bars and bars strewn together with a few cute hooks thrown in to keep one's attention. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:00:12 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: A Hook is not always a hook ?! (NJC) Just for the record....a radio station in the Bay Area does this kind of contest every day and they call the contest "Name that Lick". A "lick" being a series of notes played on guitar not "part of a song in which the words really moved me and made me sad". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 21:59:46 EST From: Siqwomb@aol.com Subject: joni-the-painter-first Fellow Listers, Although I am "behind the times" when it comes to this list, and although I (the artist formerly known as Womb Queen) am on digest and would be completely unaware if someone has already posted on this angle of the Rolling Stone segment, I still must add my two cents: When I read Joni's blurb, I pretty much sat with mouth agape, wondering, "why, Joni, why????" She, whether or not she intended to (after all, this is Rolling Stone), came across as being very condescending and self-absorbed--if you notice, she is the only one in the whole article who doesn't really mention an influence or "guitar god" (save for the Cotten reference, and a semi-reference to Seeger)...she pretty much talks about herself through the whole thing. Well, maybe she didn't have a guitar god to emulate. Fine. I have to admit she has her own, very unique, very original style when it comes to her music. But what really made me steam was the following: "I'm a painter first, and a painter--UNLIKE A MUSICIAN--is driven to innovate, generally speaking." Ummm, excuse me? Is she saying here that musicians are NOT driven to innovate? Is it just me, or is that really what she's saying here? Then she follows by showing how her drive to innovate culminated in her musical evolution, growth, and style. I don't understand why she has to make such a condescending remark about musicians in general--she always (nowadays at least) seems to have to make some sort of reference to make herself seem "above" the rank of mere musician. A painter first? Fine. Well, at least that way if nobody likes the direction she takes with her music, she can always say that she's "a painter first." Nice how that works. I must say that the reason this bugged me so much is the fact that I love Joni's music so much, and I love the many different directions her music takes and has taken--but when I read something like this out of the horse's mouth, it's like a slap in the face. If I weren't already such a huge fan of Joni the Musician, I certainly wouldn't be encouraged to buy her albums after reading that article. And if I weren't already such a huge fan of Joni the Musician, I wouldn't know Joni the Painter at all. Joni the Painter I like. Joni the Musician I love. But Joni-the-painter-first is hard to stomach. I hope the latter isn't any indication of how Joni the Person is. Blasphemerically yours, Laura the Womb Queen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:55:29 +1000 From: Evan + Vanessa Thomson Subject: Re: HOOKS MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > I dont know what debate is on this. A "hook" in a song is not some vague > concept. Some of the parts of songs some of the posters have considered to be > hooks aren't. A hook is simply the repeating signiture either instrumental > (The sax line in Men at Works "who can it be now") or vocal (Pa Pa OOh Mow > Mow) . The Hook in Amelia is the line "It was just a false alarm". There may > be other less catchy parts of a song but the hook is THEE main repeated line. > my 2cents. md I think that is what I was saying... you have confused me somewhat. I agree with your idea on what a 'hook' is but it is also subjective. Anything can hook you. It can be the bass, the feeling it gives you, the arrangement etc. I think 'that' is what I was referring too as well as trying to 'understand' my feelings regarding this album. For me, it's also the way she says "Amelia"... not just the last part of the lyric. So, I was using the term 'hook' in a personal context rather than its definitive meaning. It wasn't a debate but a comment. We were asked to comment and I was in many respects, agreeing with Bob and then expanding the idea as I got into the thread. It's difficult to formulate what you feel and how you feel at times and this format can be 'limiting'. Vanessa. N.P. the traffic ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:03:05 +1000 From: Evan + Vanessa Thomson Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #113 Ginamu@aol.com wrote: Vanessa, > Amelia is the song that first drew me in to Joni. I was surfing the dial one > night in my teenage-hood and came upon a station that kept playing one good > song after another and heard Amelia. Thankfully the announcer said who the > artist was and I went out the next morning to a record store to find Hejira. I > was mystified, intrigued, and as it turns out, blessed by the first listening > of Amelia. Hejira saved my life and continues to be a refuge for me again and > again. Ok...well...I'm really too moved now to carry on any further and reveal > all those brittle little skeletons in my closet. > I also have experienced that but with Blue. Perhaps this is why this album is the one that I treasure most. It represents a time, a place but then it became more than that. It was the soundtrack to my last years in high school. I 'actually' discovered it for myself... 2 years after the initial hearing. It's so tightly interwoven with those memories that it's difficult to separate. > > Anyway, I never thought about what in Amelia was the "hook". I think the > graceful, flawless vocals, the originality of the lyrics and the overall > moodiness of the composition really grabbed me at a time when I needed to feel > that there was some hope for innovation and art in contemporary music. > This is what I meant in my posts... it's how the song affects the individual. > It's lovely when you post and it strikes a chord with someone. I don't often > post on my interpretation of Joni's work as more often than not, a more eloquent > poster sums it up for me. I considered not posting on this thread as Hejira is > 'not' one of my favourites. Vanessa. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:03:38 -0500 From: Anne Madden Subject: Jonatha Brooke, Emmylou & NJC Craig wrote - >Just recently picked up Jonatha's "Live" album which kind of surprised me >after only two releases I am not familiar with this artist?? >If you have not caught Emmylou Harris's...Spyboy on PBS you are missing a >great show. I have the original video as well as the taped version of the show and I agree she is great - I am a mega fan of Emmylou's, I own all her CD's, collaborations and then some!! > He has two records to date and they are awesome. I have Poison Love and think it's great. >Julie Miller, Buddy's wife sings background on one song. She has about 5 albums of her own which >I have really enjoyed. They fall in the wounded healer category of music. >She has a little Cindy Lauper in her voice but her passion for seeing people >healed from broken past is evident through her own struggle in her songs. The comparison to Cindy Lauper is a good one because Julie does have that little lost girl voice. I first heard Julie sing on Emmylou's records. She wrote one of the songs on the Spyboy album but my mind is blank at the moment?? I don't have any of Julie's records. What would you recommend? Anne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:36:09 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: NJC - Sam Cooke and other covers This could be a long post - so bear with me! >Michael retorted: > >**So let me guess--you can't stand Aretha's _I Never Loved a Man >the Way I Loved You_. After all, it has not one, but *TWO* Sam >Cooke covers. Aaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!** > > I won't say that I can't stand them, but I *can* say I like Sam's > versions better! :~) > > I stand by my original statement...strangely enough, I can't make the > same claim about Joni as I like Bonnie Raitt's "Midway" better than > Joni's...of course, I haven't heard every song that's ever been > recorded, but I have heard a mess of 'em! Have to agree with you on Bonnie's version of "Midway" - IMO maybe because it's less "stark" than Joni's - don't know - but I love Bonnie almost as much as Joni, although I would say she's had more "down" period's in her recording career than Joni. It's actually very similar in style (unsurprisingly) to Track #3 - Angel from Montgomery. I must admit, I'm not usually a fan of people who cover other's work, especially those who have nothing original themselves, and are just trying to make a quick buck off an already proven song. Some examples I will NOT listen to: Michael Bolton's "Dock of the Bay", Fugee's "Killing me Softly". I realise I may get a few angry replies to this, so let me try to explain. I don't respect a singer/group who releases an already "popular" song, before releasing anything of their own. What I can't understand is why someone like Lauren Hill does it, when she's got an incredible voice, and a lot of good songs herself? Is it an insecurity thing or something! The exception to the above (IMO) are artists doing tribute to another (and admittedly I may be doing Bolton and the Fugees a huge injustice), as opposed to just making a buck, or those who include the original artist (and hence their permission/blessing) in the re-recording. Another example, Puff Daddy using Sting on "I'll Be Missing You" (although I still hated it!) I guess it's harder when you're talking about singers of the sixties (like Aretha) who had songs written for them, which was how the industry worked back then. I have a video of Carole King talking about she and Gerry Goffin sitting in a cubicle with a piano (back in the early sixties, before she started performing herself), and staying there until they had the "flavour of the month's" latest hit! So it's a little harder to condemn those performers for singing other people's songs! Anyway, I've rambled on long enough - I can sum up by saying that if you were to browse through my CD/LP/TAPE collection, you'd find very few albums that weren't written by the actual perfomers - guess it's a matter of personal taste, but I think you always hear far more emotion from a song that's been written by the person singing it - Joni as the best example of all! I'd be interested in other people's opinions on this? Am I too touchy, and inflexible? Helen NP - Bonnie Raitt - Streetlights (since your post reminded me it's been a while!) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #114 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. 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