From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #111 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, March 8 1999 Volume 04 : Number 111 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- re: urge... ["P. Henry" ] From Marilyn [catman ] (NJC) Shawn, Chapin, Lucinda [LRFye@aol.com] Re: From Marilyn [Phyliss Ward ] digest form??? [Fruity7967@aol.com] Re: From Marilyn [LRFye@aol.com] beth orton (NJC) ["paul tyrer" ] re: urge... ["P. Henry" ] Re: From Marilyn [Ginamu@aol.com] A Painter First [DKasc13293@aol.com] Plug Of The Week #9 ["Peter Holmstedt" ] Re: From Marilyn - Joni's art ["Kakki" ] Joni in advertisements [Bounced Message ] Re: From Marilyn - Joni's art [DKasc13293@aol.com] Re: From Marilyn - Joni's art [luvart@snet.net] elliot smith, joni and cherokee louise ["Angela Takats" Subject: re: urge... simon, first, as a pretty serious Joni fan, I want to thank you for the time and effort you have put into what you posted about this as well as other subjects. you are a fair historian and I enjoyed all your posts I've seen. secondly, no, that was definitely NOT 'more than I wanted to know'! VERY thorough work, though there do seem to be some inconsistencies between the two primary sources... perhaps the answer lies in the term 'released'... (I'm guessing) if, in fact, tom's 45 was only distributed locally, like his tape, (and we don't really know which it was that ol' george heard on the radio that night, this wouldn't qualify as a 'release' in the record company jargon as in a nationally distributed and advertised 'release'. I don't really know the answer... but what you shared was really revealing. see, I, like tom, had the privilege of learning the song first hand from Joni and I'm sure tom had feelings about the song similar to mine: first off, as I've posted here before at length, Joni seemed very intent on always letting everyone know that urge was her favorite song and never said anything like that about any other... now, tie this in with the profound effect (pure devotion) she had on most men, particularly male musicians, (see interviews with tom and david) and you can maybe imagine the feelings I had about playing this song, being one of her zealous devotees. it is therefore interesting to me that tom recorded this song no less than six separate times according to what you posted, if you count the tape, that is... I think his heart was really in it! btw, if I were you I would check out 'William Ruhlman' a bit more carefully... that quote from him looks kinda fishy to me... in the first place, I believe urge was written before dylan played his electric set at newport; in the second place she always said it was about canadian winter (and, perhaps (speculating here) Kilauren's dad? (the 'man in summertime'?)) and in the third place, as the booking mgr of a coffeehouse '66-'67, *after* she wrote the song, though I don't know how much better things may have been in prior years, I can tell you that the folk circuit was very much alive and well and, at least in the detroit area, always had capacity audiences... ie: there were lots of places to play (and we never had a guitar amplifier on our stage while I worked there!) and finally, I really can't imagine Joni writing as song and especially that song about anything so topical and mundane... I mean, look at her material during that time... she was a romantic from head to toe! the only possible exception I can think of would be 'nathan la franeer'... so I guess what I'm saying is that I don't buy his statement that 'she recalled' any such thing! anyway, thanks again for the great historian work. *S* pat NP - blue http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 11:20:24 +0000 From: catman Subject: From Marilyn Joni..."I'm a painter first, and a painter-unlike a musician- is driven to innovate, generally speaking." Rolling Stone. What a crock of BULLSHIT if I ever read any! She is not a painting innovator what so ever...she is an impressionistic copycat AT BEST! As an artist who has struggled to define my own style, I resent such crap! e-mail me privately if you want to discuss this cuz I'm not on the list right now! artwear@ncweb.com - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:06:37 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: (NJC) Shawn, Chapin, Lucinda For those who might be interested, some info from the Shawn Colvin discussion list: > SHAWN COLVIN ON TOUR 1999 > > 4/16 @ MAIN STREET ARTS FESTIVAL- FT. WORTH, TX (SOLO) > 5/21 @ MANN CENTER- PHILADELPHIA, PA (W/MARY CHAPIN CARPENTER) > 5/22 @ CENTRAL PARK SUMMERSTAGE- NYC > 6/1&2 @ VILLA MONTALVO- SARATOGA, CA > 6/6 @ GREEK THEATER- LA, CA (W/MARY CHAPIN CARPENTER) > 6/7 @ HUMPHREY'S- SAN DIEGO, CA > 6/15 @ RED ROCKS- DENVER, CO > 6/17-20 @ TELLURIDE BLUEGRASS FEST- TELLURIDE, CO > 7/10 @ NC MUSEUM OF ART- RALEIGH, NC > 7/11 @ FREE FESTIVAL- BALTIMORE, MD > 8/3 @ RAVINIA- CHICAGO, IL (W/KEB MO) > 8/12 @ WOLFTRAP- VIENNA, VA (W/KEB MO) > 9/3 @ BUMBERSHOOT FEST- SEATTLE, WA > 9/4 @ ROSE GARDEN AMPHITHEATER- PORTLAND, OR > Chapin is scheduled for these dates as well: > > 6/15 @ RED ROCKS- DENVER, CO > 6/17-20 @ TELLURIDE BLUEGRASS FEST- TELLURIDE, CO > > And Lucinda Williams is also scheduled for Telluride. If you've never > been, try to get there for the big finale on Sunday... huge jam session to > close it out. Lori San Antonio NP: Sheryl Crow, Solidify ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 20:44:22 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: From Marilyn Marilyn, I can understand this comment. I wasn't sure where she was coming from either until I recently had an opportunity to hear the radio show promoting TTT called "A Conversation with Joni Mitchell" where she talks about this subject in detail. It actually has more to do with the way she "creates" music and painting than the the actual outcome. Something about how she decides what "color" to put where and that she considers herself a "sophisticated ignorant" when it comes to music since she doesn't read it etc.. Does anyone have a transcript of this interview? Marilyn wrote: > Joni..."I'm a painter first, and a painter-unlike a musician- is driven > to innovate, generally speaking." Rolling Stone. What a crock of > BULLSHIT if I ever read any! She is not a painting innovator what so > ever...she > is an impressionistic copycat AT BEST! As an artist who has struggled > to > define my own style, I resent such crap! e-mail me privately if you want > to discuss this cuz I'm not on the list right now! artwear@ncweb.com - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:49:59 EST From: Fruity7967@aol.com Subject: digest form??? does anyone know how i can switch to digest form? peace and love skye ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:32:13 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: From Marilyn Marilyn wrote: > She is not a painting innovator what so ever...she is an impressionistic copycat > AT BEST! Phyliss replied, in part: > It actually has more to do with the way she "creates" music and painting than the > the actual outcome. Something about how she decides what "color" to put where > and that she considers herself a "sophisticated ignorant" when it comes to music > since she doesn't read it etc.. Last night I watched a 1986 interview during which Joni prepared for an exhibit in L.A. She demonstrated her abstract painting technique, and -- while I'm definitely not an art expert -- her style and product seemed original enough to me. Later, Joni was amuzed that some of the folks who attended the exhibit were most impressed by the very painting that she created during the interview, a huge canvas to which she hadn't given much thought at all. Joni was doing a lot of 3-D work back then, as well, which was VERY cool and quite original (at least to me). Obviously, Joni's art style has changed over time; you can pretty much mark a painting by the decade in which it was created. There are the highly detailed - -- almost psychedelic -- work of the '60s, the spare water colors and pen & inks of the '70s, the layered abstracts and 3-Ds of the 80s, and the more "impressionist" paintings of the 90s. Who knows what the 00s will bring? I'm curious to see ... At any rate, while I can agree that Joni does seem to be in a "copy mode" at the present time, I think one might want to see her entire body of work before discounting her originality as a painter. Lori San Antonio NP: Sheryl Crow on continuous loop (We Do What We Can is so haunting ...) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 19:02:47 -0000 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: beth orton (NJC) Bob I'm delighted you asked about Beth Orton - cos I've been itching to post about her work but haven't found a good excuse to do so till now!! Beth's new LP is called Central Reservation and there's one 45 out at the moment here in the UK. It's called Stolen Car and is a real slow burner. When I first put it on, I thought it was dull. But considering I've always felt this about Beth's songs before falling in love with them, I wasn't so worried. Sure enough, I listened to it back-to-back today in my car because I have been smitten. Ben Harper plays the weirdest guitar - he makes it sound like the mating call of the cello - and Beth's voice is superb, smoky, warm, yet detached. The earlier 45, Best Bit, was great too, so we may be in for a killer LP. Featured guests on the LP include Dr John, Ben Watt from Everything but the girl, and bluesy jazz man Terry Callier. Beth has cited Joni as a key influence - Blue was one of her selected desert island records, though she did say that Joni's vocalising rubbed her up the wrong way at times! Anyway, try Beth out - you might like her. But frequent playing rewards you. PXX Stolen car (excerpt!) you walked into my house last night i couldn't help but notice a light that was long gone still burning strong... you were sitting your fingers like fuses your eyes were cinammon. you said, 'you stand for every known abuse that was ever threatened to anyone but you. Why should i know better by now when i'm old enough not to?' When every line speaks the language of love it never held the meaning I was thinking of. And I can't decide all the right or wrong... I guess sometimes you need the place where you belong. one drink too many and a joke gone too far I see your face drive like a stolen car harder to hide when you're hitching a ride harder to hide what you really saw... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 20:54:39 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: re: urge... oops! upon a little more careful re-reading it appears I got some of my historical facts mixed up... sorry 'bout that. pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 17:29:29 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: From Marilyn In a message dated 3/7/99 6:20:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: > Joni..."I'm a painter first, and a painter-unlike a musician- is driven > to > innovate, generally speaking." Rolling Stone. Taken out of context, what Joni says here seems to indicate that she considers herself to be a very original painter but I agree with the poster who said that she was probably referring to the way she implements her intuition (so to speak) about painting to the music she creates. She often likens her musical process to that of a painter, right? I do believe that is all she is saying here, though like others on this list, I don't quite understand why she considers herself a painter first. But if she does, she does and if the result is the creation of music we all obviously adore, more power to her and lucky us! I just hope that she doesn't give up completely on taming the tiger and keeps creating music in her own, unique "painterly" way. Take care, Gina NP: Martin Sexton - The American ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 18:44:38 EST From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: A Painter First What exactly is it that inspires us to create? Need, relaxation, desire for communication, peace of mind, all good reasons. Some people like to read, some like to sit in front of the tube, some like to hunt, some like to paint. I am one of the later. I preface with a request of forgiveness for my self indulgence. A little bit of personal history, is that I used to sit in my room and listen to Clouds, Blue and For the Roses and paint watercolors for my girlfriend inspired by Joni's music. I'd identify with Joni so. All the way through to the Hejira period, when I found, having survived adolescense and some real mature issues (the early death of my Dad) did my painting begin to take on an honest depth and integrity. I was growing up, so to speak. However, after the Mingus period the creative door was slammed shut for me. Both self-inflected and by others. The Navy and a "real" job at corporate headquarters, all served to appease my will to pick up a paint brush. For those fifteen years, it was a thought in the back of my mind, Joni was still there, but the inspiration, or should I say focus, was not. Well, I'm happy to declare that it is back! TTT may be the reason, the rejuvenation factor, the spirit of the album. Joni's a smart survivor. She's made many claims to leaving the bizz since I've know her. There is something that ALWAYS draws her back in. Well now that I've convoluted my original point with tangents, let me just say that to me the significance of Joni's painting and its changes is inherently tied to her spirit. Luckily, it's on the upswing. As evidenced by the new material, because I'm tagging along with her in my own way, in oils not acrylics! With a vengence, Duane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 00:05:43 +0100 From: "Peter Holmstedt" Subject: Plug Of The Week #9 Hi there, Another week gone by and SPRING is approaching rapidly! Music that fits the feeling of spring perfectly is a new release on the New Surf label : Jeff Larson - Watercolor Sky ( New Surf ) This is an album that just screams "spring, sun and summer"! Jeff Larson and producers Jeffrey Foskett and Gary Griffin have planted the feel of the album in the well-known land of "Beach Boys, CSN & America". One of the tunes, "Annabelle", is written, produced and performed together with Gerry Beckley of America. Another one of the tunes, "King Of Summer", is a loving tribute to one of Larson's heroes, and Jeffrey Foskett's old partners in Beach Boys, Brian Wilson. A beautiful album that grows on the listener with each listen. Copies of the album ( and of Jeffrey Foskett's own 4 albums ) are available from : New Surf Limited PO Box 5011 Huntington Beach CA 92615 U.S.A. or by email from : NCOMPASS@aol.com Great music from a great artist! Take care, Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 17:07:10 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: From Marilyn - Joni's art Gina wrote: >> Joni..."I'm a painter first, and a painter-unlike a musician- is driven >> to innovate, generally speaking." Rolling Stone. >I don't quite understand why she >considers herself a painter first. But if she does, she does and if the result >is the creation of music we all obviously adore, more power to her and lucky >us! I think she considers herself a painter first because painting was literally her first art form from the time she was a small child. Writing music came much later in her teenage years. I think it is natural for her to call herself a painter first. She has also said that she paints her joy. I have always disagreed with Marilyn and others who think she is not a very good artist and a "copycat". Joni paints what she wants to and, having seen some of her paintings, I think she is very good. By whose "rules" do we judge her? I believe an artist should express what they want to express and not be influenced or pressured by the often arbitrary standards of the "art world". She is not an impressionistic copycat. If that were true she'd be copying Monets. Van Goghs and the rest exclusively. Rather, her current painting technique is impressionistic, but her subject matter is original and personal. I also have an art background, with a specialization in painting. I've painted and studied painting since I was about 4 years old. I majored in art through high school and college and have studied art history and art education. I have also taught art classes on a volunteer and student basis. My very preliminary judgment of Joni's art work has always been that she is naturally creative. While her early line drawings and watercolors did not impress me much, I chalked that up to the fact that she was terribly busy touring and recording in those early years and did not have the quality quiet time and energy to really pour into her art. But it seemed she wanted to still have a finger in it and so did these little sketches along the way. I don't think she ever meant for the world to assess them as little masterpieces. I've also viewed the 1980s video of Joni in her abstract phase. Some of the listers in the U.K. have seen some of those works from an exhibit there and they have all raved about her work as I recall. I think as she has had more time, or made more time, to devote to her painting, she has been able to show the world a lot more of her talent. I had a very distinguished painting teacher in my teens. She nurtured me and really loved my work. I then went through a short phase where I decided to be "more original and innovative" and submitted some wild abstract work to her. She had a fit and told me to never bring such "shit" to her again. Her point was that I should continue to paint and create what made me happy, to paint from my heart, and never to feel pressure to try to be different just for the sake of being different. I truly believe Joni paints from her heart and to me that is all that matters. To me, that makes her art a lot more honest than art that bends over backward to be merely "innovative". Much "innovative" art is creative posturing IMO. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 18:34:33 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Joni in advertisements From: mann@chicagonet.net Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 19:13:45 -0600 Does anyone besides me remember Joni singing the ads for JUST PANTS? I didn't realize she actually posed for GAP jeans. Check out the picture at this eBay auction. It is Item #73980454 JONI MITCHELL Gap Clothes PROMO Ad 1208 Visa http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=73980454 (don't know if this will take you there or not. You may have to go to eBay's home page.........hit the SEARCH option and then put in the item number) I just thought this was too cool........thought someone else might get a charge out of it! Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:52:18 EST From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: From Marilyn - Joni's art In a message dated 3/7/99 8:20:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << I've also viewed the 1980s video of Joni in her abstract phase. >> BTW, some of this work can be viewed on the homepage bio section for that period. Lots of "neon", "star" quality" On another point of painting and innovation..... to be able to afford to be "loose" with ones thoughts and desires is also an issue. Do I expect an epic like Paprika Plains or the Mingus experiment anytime soon from Joni? No, I don't. Not that she isn't more than capable of it. However, affording this "luxury" for lack of a better word is a whole other issue. Court and Spark's zeneith in the money making machinery is a big impetous to the confidence in innovating. Hence, HOSL's ahead of it's time, intro into world music. Look at the compositions of the last 3 albums. I wouldn't call them conventional, because Joni's originality can't be denied by her alternate tunings. However, the songs are in the 4 minute range generally, address mass audience issues, and are composed less risk. She's been putting out things like Borderline, instead of Jungleline. I am not making judgements here, Duane ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 21:17:28 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: From Marilyn - Joni's art At 05:07 PM 3/7/99 -0800, you wrote: >Her point was that I should continue to paint and create what made me happy, >to paint from my heart, and never to feel pressure to try to be different >just for the sake of being different. > >I truly believe Joni paints from her heart and to me that is all that >matters. To me, that makes her art a lot more honest than art that bends >over backward to be merely "innovative". Much "innovative" art is creative >posturing IMO. > Nicely put, Kakki. These quotes come to mind ... "What is most real for me are the illusions I create with my paintings. Everything else is quicksand." - Eugene Delacroix(1824) "An artist cannot talk about his art any more than a plant can discuss horticulture" - Jean Cocteau (1955) "An artist's first responsibility is to himself" - Miles Davis Heather (feverishly working on her art history paper on the lyricism of Caravaggio works of art) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 22:22:00 PST From: "Angela Takats" Subject: elliot smith, joni and cherokee louise Hi Listers I have just discovered Elliot Smith and i can't get enuf....so much of his music reminds me of JONI - does anyone out there "second that"? The way he picks guitar chords and some of his detunings. Now I know nothing about the guy and the internet site i have seen is pretty crappy - does anyone know who his influences have been?? It's so nice to hear someone modern doing something classy and brilliant with music, I so used to the same old modern crap that makes me wish i was around in the 60's and 70's, i feel such a connection to the music of that time. What i like about Smith is that his work sounds like a mixture of all my favourite artists - The Beach Boys, The Beatles, Neil Finn, Radiohead, James Taylor and JONI. My favourite song on his new (well it's new for Australia, but probably has been out in the US for ages) CD is Independence Day - it's SOOO funky and groovy and all those other cool words. His music is such a breath of fresh air - I'd love to know he was a joni fan. I think he's from Portland...anyone anyone? Putting Smith aside....I have been listening to NRH a lot, as it is the newest (three weeks old) joni-CD that I have added to my collection. I love Cherokee Louise - I've been singing it constantly and it won't get out of my head (not that that's a bad thing) "last year about this time we used to climb up in the branches just to sway there in some breeze" - mmmm love it. It sounds so sweet and innocent - the melody and pace - but then you listen to the words and realise the subject matter is pretty serious. I wonder who this Cherokee Louise is? And can someone explain (forgive my ignorance) what "Cherokee" means in this song. Thanks in advance From Ange (Sydney - can't belive we're stuck with the 2000 games! just joking oooh, just thought of a whole new exciting idea, I'll save it for another posting) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 22:31:31 PST From: "Angela Takats" Subject: olympics: yr 2000 = major jonifest in australia??? OOOoooh Listers Little Angela in Sydney, Australia just got a major rush of excitment...she realised that she just might get something out of the 2000 games to be held in her city, despite hating sport and crowds.... PLEASE tell me that some of you listers are coming to Sydney for the games and would love to show us aussies what a joni-fest is all about???!!! I know it's far away, but the thought just struck me - that there just could be a couple of you guys down here during the games, and that that would be a major opportunity to hold a jonifest in Sydney...which would please me greatly. Love to hear what you think & whether anyone is planning to come "down under" for 2000. Ange ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #111 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?