From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #107 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, March 4 1999 Volume 04 : Number 107 The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at http://jmdl.com and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Re[2]: FTR and a question [Joseph Palis ] Re: NJC DUSTY SPRINGFIELD [Joseph Palis ] Tiger Bones [CarltonCT@aol.com] Re: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: CAREY [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem [M.Russell@iaea.org] RE: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem [davidmarine@webtv.net (David Mar] Re: Easy to play Joni songs ["Phil Klein" ] Re: the chieftans (sjc?) [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: NJC DUSTY SPRINGFIELD [philipf@tinet.ie] TTT songbook - out soon! [Howard Wright ] Time signatures for Ray's Dad's Cadillac and others ... [Howard Wright ] [Fwd: cd (ID # 420234-LJNQ)] [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Tiger Bones [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Time signatures for Ray's Dad's Cadillac and others ... [IVPAUL42@aol] Re[2]: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem/D. Baerwald [Bob.Muller@fluord] Re[2]: Wild things run faster on tape [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Re[2]: Wild things run faster on tape ["Don Rowe" ] NITC/std tune puzzle ["Brian S. Moss" ] Postscript to sampling of world music debate (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Carey [Bounced Message ] Urge For Going [Bounced Message ] Re: Urge For Going [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Cary Raditz, Eric Anderson & Joni [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: NJC bumrush [Strummed@aol.com] mark isham plug (n.j.c.) [Strummed@aol.com] Re: Urge For Going [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Today in Joni History - March 4 [Today in Joni History ] Today in Joni History - March 5 [Today in Joni History ] Re: Urge For Going [Strummed@aol.com] shaking fists at lightning...(NJC) [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: Slouching Towards Bethlehem [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Urge For Going [Lisa Durfee ] Re: Urge For Going ["Helen M. Adcock" ] Re: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem/D. Baerwald [The Humphreys ] Re: Urge For Going [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Brian Hinton ["Helen M. Adcock" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:12:44 +0800 (PST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: Re[2]: FTR and a question On Wed, 3 Mar 1999 Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com wrote: > > NP: Edie Brickell, "Lost in the Moment" > Loved this song very much. Very sad and touching. The what-ifs of our lives. Makes me want to call people and tell them I loved them. Joseph NP: Edie Brickell, "Good Times" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:14:39 +0800 (PST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: NJC DUSTY SPRINGFIELD On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, catman wrote: > The BBC Six O'clock News has just annouced the death of Dusty > Springfield from cancer. > The first song that comes to my mind whenever her name's mentioned is "Am I The Same Girl" that she sang so sexily and beautifully. May she rest in peace. Joseph NP: Dusty's DUSTY IN MEMPHIS album ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 03:30:22 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: Tiger Bones I disagree with John that Tiger Bones is just filler. I think Joni fell in love with the chords of this tune, and as much as this song is the signature piece of the album, I think she wanted to present it pretty much as the interesting guitar composition that it is, unfettered by her singing along with it. I love the song, but I love just the pure guitar playing under it. It really is a subtle pleasure, and someone did a great job at Sue's Tabs of figuring it out. It's a brand new tuning for her. I'm sure a musicologist could tell us all about the strange rhythms and declensions, etc. of the chord arrangements. Having worked on my own compositions in open tunings, I'm getting to understand her process. She 's been quoted as saying the music comes first, and that's the easy part, the lyrics are tough. I do it the same way -- I find chords I like, they suggest a tune, and the tune suggests a mood and a few key phrases. And then, yes, you really have to work! It's not easy. I've noticed that many Joni albums contain 10 songs. Anyone ever counted? Clark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:29:07 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) posted: * Transcript of Joni from a Geffen promo radio interview circa 1991 * "My husband was producing an artist named David Baerwald (sp?), * who's a good writer, and he had been laboring for five years to set a poem * to music called "The Second Coming" by W.B. Yeats, and he'd been talking * about this; and in the back room -- in the studio -- there was a stack of books * and among them was a book of essays by Joan Didion called "Slouching * Towards Bethlehem," and the poem was printed at the head of it. So he * discovered this and one day he came runing into the house and said 'here's * the poem I was talking about.'......" I've heard this interview many times, and every time I wonder how David Baerwald (sp?) felt about Joni setting this poem to music since he'd been struggling to do the same for five years. I guess no one can answer this but Joni. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:32:20 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: CAREY On Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:08:42 +1100, "Sarah Whitaker (ADC Administration)" wrote: * By the way, love the list. It's great to be able to associate with others * who have the same passion for Joni. I bought my first Joni album in 1994 * and I literally cried the first time I played it through, not only because * of her beautiful lyrics and melodies but because it had taken me so long to * find her. For the first time, I felt I had a CD in my collection that * truly belonged there and said something about the type of person I am. Welcome to the list Sarah! What was your first Joni album? Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 03:43:04 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem In a message dated 3/4/99 3:37:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, M.Russell@iaea.org writes: << I've heard this interview many times, and every time I wonder how David Baerwald (sp?) felt about Joni setting this poem to music since he'd been struggling to do the same for five years. I guess no one can answer this but Joni. Marian Vienna >> I'm not really bothered by this. If I have an idea for a great invention, but lack the ability or resources to actually build the "longer-lasting lightbulb," then I really have no claim if you are able to build it successfully, even if it was I who inadvertently gave you the inspiration to try. You cannot copyright an idea for a poem or novel or song anymore than you can patent an idea for a perpetual-motion machine. You have to patent the machine itself. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:43:10 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem On Thursday, March 04, 199 9:43 AM IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 3/4/99 3:37:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, M.Russell@iaea.org writes: << I've heard this interview many times, and every time I wonder how David Baerwald (sp?) felt about Joni setting this poem to music since he'd been struggling to do the same for five years. I guess no one can answer this but Joni. Marian Vienna >> I'm not really bothered by this. If I have an idea for a great invention, but lack the ability or resources to actually build the "longer-lasting lightbulb," then I really have no claim if you are able to build it successfully, even if it was I who inadvertently gave you the inspiration to try. You cannot copyright an idea for a poem or novel or song anymore than you can patent an idea for a perpetual-motion machine. You have to patent the machine itself. Paul I I guess I feel it would have been nice of Joni to credit David B. for embarking on the project in the first place. She never would have done it had he not been around. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:15:29 -0800 (PST) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: RE: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem Marian -- I just went looking in the liner notes of NRH for some acknowledgement of David Baerwald's hand in the genesis of STB. Well, there are no "thank yous," but do you know who David Baerwald is? He's the male voice on "Nothing Can Be Done." David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:57:06 GMT From: "Phil Klein" Subject: Re: Easy to play Joni songs Terry wrote: >P.S. >One of Joni's easier songs to play is Urge For Going. No fussing >with with open tunings. However, the intro may be a little tricky to >figure out. I've also played some of her other songs in traditional >tuning when I don't have time to fuss- you can try That Song About >The Miday, I Don't Know Where I Stand for starters. >Terry All of you have missed the easiest Joni song to play, namely - "The Fiddle and the Drum". Ha ha. Phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:09:22 +0100 From: "Tube" Subject: Re: Wild things run faster on tape >* I'm a big Joni fan, but have only 6 of her albums (so far). >* Well, seven counting WTRF, but I honestly think that one is >* pretty awful. >I used to think WTRF was pretty terrible, too, except for Chinese Cafe, Yeah, I like WTRF - I never play it... But I like it! Well no actually that's not strictly true. I recorded WTRF off a friend's vinyl, and, as I recall, when I first heard it I didn't like it, and felt the album suffered from the order of the tracks. So when I made my recording, I shuffled all the tracks into a different order, and I think my version swings along a little better than Joni's! This is before the days of the CD, so this was all done manually, in fact I still do it that way - it generally takes me about two or three hours to copy an LP onto a tape till I get it just how I want it. This is something I often do - I'm rarely happy with the order of tracks on an album so I usually re-record onto cassette, working on a sort of 'saving the best track till last' criterion. Or I'll do jump cuts to lengthen the track into a super-duper 'twelve-inch' version. Also, for me, cassettes where you record one artist on one side and a different artist on the other side are a no-no for me - I rarely find I'm in the mood for both artists, 'en-bloc'. So if I'm in that situation, I'll actually alternate the consecutive tracks back and forth between each artist, producing an LP that sounds like a joint collaboration between the two artists. This generally softens the differnece between the two artists, enhancing both by the variety and often produces some intersting mood textures during your 90 minutes of listening. Or I'll mix two albums by the same artist together with alternating tracks. Is that what the JMDL tape trees do? I've never heard one. I've only had a CD player since I put one in my computer 18 months ago, so I actually only own one CD - Most of my listening is of cassettes recorded off vinyl, so I'm kind of more into cassettes than anything else. I'd love to try one of these new recordable mini CD thingies, although the cost is prohibitive right now, but it looks like a medium I could really get into if it truly offers the flexibility of edit control that I have with my manual cassette-deck and vinyl turntable. Second-hand vinyl is so cheap now, these are boom years for me. If anyone's interested in making Wild Things Run Fast a little more listenable, I'll let you know the re-shuffled track order. Home taping is improving music Love, Tube. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:55:52 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: the chieftans (sjc?) - -----Original Message----- From: Iain Mackenzie >Tears of Stone is a beautiful album that anyone interested in Irish music >should buy. Not really. This Chieftains record is more a marketing opportunity than a serious musical project. A weak Joni Mitchell tune is by far the stand out track. The record is so wrongheaded that it's bound to win them yet another Grammy. I'm sure The Chieftains are laughing all the way to the bank and good luck to them. But eventually someone is going to have to shout stop to all of this cod celtic nonsense. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:55:30 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: NJC DUSTY SPRINGFIELD >On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, catman wrote: > >> The BBC Six O'clock News has just annouced the death of Dusty >> Springfield from cancer. >> She was unique and the amount to coverage her passing is getting on tv, radio and press shows that she had a special place in people's hearts. The news said something about a tribute to her on BBC 1 tonight. I hope she gets to jam with Jimi Hendrix again. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:00:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: TTT songbook - out soon! From: TerryM2442@aol.com >Does anyone know if and when a TTT songbook- hopefully with JT (Joni >Tunings) will be available? Warner Bros. are printing the songbook at the moment, so it should start to reach the shops within the next few weeks. I'll let you know for sure when I've seen my first copy of the book! The book will definitely have the proper tunings for the songs - except for "Man From Mars" and "Here's To You" - these are arranged for standard tuning. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:08:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: Time signatures for Ray's Dad's Cadillac and others ... From: "Don Rowe" >Okay, took a listen to 'Rays Dads Cadillac' on the way home from work >last night. I came up with two ways to count the rhythm out ... the >best way is in 4/4 in even triplets (1-two-three-2-two-three). This, I >think, is in fact how the song is composed, since this fits the lyrical >flow perfectly. The other way is to count 12/8 -- but that throws the >lyrics off kilter ... Actually, what you describe above for the 4/4 triplet feel (123 223 323 423) is basically the same as 12/8 time. 12/8 has four beats, each divided into 3 1/8th notes. So if you play each of the 1/8th note beats, you end up playing 123 223 etc as you describe above. You're right - this is definitely the best way to count the rhythm for this song. This is Joni's classic "shuffle rhythm" that she uses on many songs (Cherokee Louise, Turbulent Indigo, Number One, Crazy Cries of Love ...) Howard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:24:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: Joni, FTR, Debussy From: "Kakki" >I'm very impressed by anyone who can play the FTR songs. In a Joni >interview (can't recall if it was posted here or not) she compares >herself to Debussy. If one gets past a reaction that she is once again >being "arrogant" in comparing herself to one of the great classical >artists and listens to her music alone from FTR and some of the other >albums (extracting the lyrics either mentally or technically), I think >this is a valid comparison. I think it is a valid comparison, but actually I would say that her guitar playing has many more similarities with Debussy's music than her piano playing. Her piano style definitely has something in common with Debussy - more unusual harmonies, more "odd notes", but much of her piano playing, on FTR in particular, is quite bold, with quite strongly defined musical lines. Debussy's music tends to be a little more delicate, with suggestions and hints of melodies and chords, creating an overall atmosphere with lots of subtle touches. I'm not saying that Joni's playing isn't subtle - but it gets the musical ideas across in a more simple and bold way. With her guitar playing though, she does tend to create a more atmospheric effect. Because of her tunings and playing style, chords merge into one another, and there are more delicate touches ... (at least for some of her guitar songs). I'm imagining some of the tracks from her first album now - songs like Dawntreader and I Had a King - if the guitar part was played note for note on the piano, I think it would end up sounding *very* Debussy-esque! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 08:39:00 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: [Fwd: cd (ID # 420234-LJNQ)] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------E753F831AB32D40E3399C14A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After spending 1/2 hour on the phone yesterday, this is what I got in the e-mail today. I've called and switched my long distance carrier to MCI. Jerry - --------------E753F831AB32D40E3399C14A Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: wnetorder@worldnet.att.net Received: from mailgate1.attccols.com (mailgate1.attccols.com [12.15.205.25]) by bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (8.8.7/8.6.5) with SMTP id CAA07343 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:40:27 -0500 (EST) From: wnetorder@worldnet.att.net Received: by mailgate1.attccols.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 8525672A.002A2421 ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:37:58 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IWNDIAL To: notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu Message-ID: <8525672A.0024914C.00@mailgate1.attccols.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:39:24 -0500 Subject: Re: cd (ID # 420234-LJNQ) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Dear Jerry : Thank you for contacting AT&T WorldNet Service Order Support. I understand that you would like to receive a promotional copy of Stormy Monday. AT&T WorldNet Service does not offer the promotional software you are requesting, we are offering free software trials to AT&T WorldNet Service customers, but this is not one of the titles that is currently being offered. If you need further assistance, please visit our AT&T WorldNet Service E-mail Support Form at: http://www.worldnet.att.net/care/mailus/index.html Sincerely, Kelly Thank you for using AT&T WorldNet(R) Service. We recommend you consider our AT&T One Rate(R) Online offer. AT&T One Rate(R) Online gives you residential state-to-state long distance calls from home at just 10 cents a minute and a low $1 monthly fee with the convenience of online billing and customer service. That's one simple rate 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. All AT&T WorldNet Service(R) members can sign up for our One Rate(R) plan and enjoy long distance as low as 9? a minute and have the convenience of managing his or her AT&T communications services online! For more information about this offer, go to: http://www.catalog.att.com/cmd/eoffer <<<<<<<<< Your original help request follows >>>>>>>>> >From jerry notaro E-Mail: notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu Phone Number: 727-553-3408 Subject: cd Browser: Mozilla/4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Other Feedback How can I get a promotional copy of the cd of Stormy Monday? AT&T has been distributing them. Jerry Agent's Response: Action: - --------------E753F831AB32D40E3399C14A-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:43:34 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Tiger Bones John wrote: <> While I guess this may seem to be the case, the inclusion of this track helps me to appreciate the textures of her VG8 guitar sound that she uses on this record. For whatever reason, this song almost appears three-dimensional. I wouldn't call it "filler", now the 30 seconds of nothing that precedes it, that's filler! Bob NP: Jeff Buckley "New Year's Prayer" Quote of the day: "Justice is what we get when the decision is in our favor" - John W. Roper ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:49:25 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Time signatures for Ray's Dad's Cadillac and others ... In a message dated 3/4/99 6:12:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, haw@ph.ed.ac.uk writes: << Actually, what you describe above for the 4/4 triplet feel (123 223 323 423) is basically the same as 12/8 time. 12/8 has four beats, each divided into 3 1/8th notes. So if you play each of the 1/8th note beats, you end up playing 123 223 etc as you describe above. You're right - this is definitely the best way to count the rhythm for this song. This is Joni's classic "shuffle rhythm" that she uses on many songs (Cherokee Louise, Turbulent Indigo, Number One, Crazy Cries of Love ...) Howard >> Is this anything like the rhythms used by Little Feat in many of their songs, which I recall one band member as describing as "three quarter-note couplets in 4/4 time."? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:53:58 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem/D. Baerwald David wrote: <> I'm no David Baerwald historian, but I first picked up on him as half of "David + David"(someone he.lp me with the album title), the other half being David Ricketts who married and produced Toni Childs (surprised that she's never mentioned here), as well as being part of the "Tuesday Night Music Club" that vaulted Sheryl Crow to fame. Back to Baerwald, I've got a couple of his solo records, "Bedtime Stories" and "Triage" which are both excellent and recommended. I would suppose being an admirer of Joni he doesn't have any problem with her taking his ideas on "The Second Coming/Slouching" and taking it to fruition, but I've never read anything to that effect. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:07:15 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Wild things run faster on tape Tube staked his claim with: <> Tube. it's funny, my take is just the opposite - back in my heavy home taping days, my favorite tapes had 2 disparate artists as I would usually tire of the same genre after a record. One of my faves was Sade "Diamond Life" b/w The Replacements "Let It Be". Nowadays, I play about 95% of my CD's on shuffle to mix up the artists. And it never fails when I mix Joni & Nirvana, no sooner does she sing about "whiny white kids", then Nirvana pops up a-whining away! :~) I love the contrast! <> No, the Tape Trees are primarily taped concerts and interviews that are unavailable commercially + a couple of neat JMDL tribute tapes. <> I'd like to see what the order is just out of curiosity...I had WTRF in my carmix last week and kept thinking what it would sound like with Jaco playing. As much as I like Klein's bass playing, imagine what Jaco could've done with "You Dream Flat Tires", "Man to Man", "Chinese Cafe", shoot, the whole thing! It would have been elevated to a whole new level, rocking out the way they did on S&L...that notwithstanding, I *still* think WTRF is a solid effort. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:43:18 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Wild things run faster on tape WOW!! >One of my faves was Sade "Diamond Life" b/w >The Replacements "Let It Be". You definitely win my "Manky" -- the annual award given for most Manic-Depressive mix tape of the year! Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:35:36 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: NJC - David+David For the sake of anybody who gives a rat's patoot, I just remembered the title of that David+David record, it's called "Welcome to the Boomtown". Bob NP: Warren Zevon "Bad Luck Streak in Dancing School" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:14:30 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: urge... Marksa973@aol.com wrote: >she mentions that it had been recorded by someone named George Hamilton. (I'm assuming that's George Hamilton with the suntan. Wasn't he a singer -- sort of -- at one time?) However, in the notes that come with the CD, it says that "Urge" was recorded by Tom Rush and George JONES. I'd LOVE to hear George Jones cover this song and wonder if anyone knows the story here. Is it on one of his albums?> I believe it was sometime in january that I posted about this song and one of the details I recounted was the night in 1967 Joni came into the Cellar coffeehouse and presented me with a brand new 45rpm of George Hamilton *the forth* (ie: the country singer, not the tanned actor) and she was so excited that someone had recorded one of her songs, (I believe this was the first) her eyes were all lit up like a little girl at a bday party! I don't believe George Jones ever recorded it though I'm sure he could do a pretty fair rendition of it as the phrasing of 'Urge' easily lends itself to a country mode. (though I never really liked Hamilton's version...) hope that helps... *S* pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:06:53 -0500 From: "Brian S. Moss" Subject: NITC/std tune puzzle Greetings: It is obvious that we have quite a few "accomplished" guitarists as jmdl participants. I will assume that there may also be some us[besides myself] of a more limited skill level. Years ago, someone fiqured out how to approximate the sound of 'Night In the City' in a standard tuning by 'traveling' a basic A minor chord[leave the 1st string open] thru the 1st thru the 9th frets[my guitars stringless now or I'd tell you exactly what sequence] your ear will help you figure it out. Basically a one chord [have to throw an A Major in a couple of times] approximation of the songs 'feel'. I was jubilant when I had the ability to 'do' a Joni song with my very limited talent and have it 'ring'. I have always bemoaned my lack of guitar skills, because I could have learned sooo much from the many master guitarists I was exposed to in the coffeehouse days. Give it a try, it will set you free. keep smilin'....brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:22:57 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Postscript to sampling of world music debate (NJC) JMDL synchronicity strikes again. From todays http://www.launch.com/ Enigma Sued By Aboriginal Couple Over Song Rights (3/4/99, 1 a.m. PST) - An elderly Taiwanese aboriginal couple has filed a lawsuit against nearly two dozen recording and entertainment companies, claiming that their original work was illegally used on the 1994 multimillion-selling Cross Of Changes album by Euro-pop group Enigma. Enigma's leader Michael Cretu, currently living the life of a recluse on the Spanish resort island of Ibiza, is also among a list of defendants in the case, which was originally filed last December in Los Angeles Federal Court, and amended recently to include such entities as Sony Music Entertainment and EMI U.S.A. Early efforts to serve Cretu with legal papers connected to the infringement case through his Spanish attorney were reportedly unsuccessful because he has no mailing address. But he was finally handed copies of the complaint late last month after being tracked down by a private investigator, according to Pat Ellisen, a partner at the San Jose, Calif. law firm of Oppenheimer Wolff & Donnelly, which is handling the suit. A recording of the couple in question--79-year-old Kuo Ying-Nan and his 78-year-old wife Kuo Hsin-Chu--performing their "Jubilant Drinking Song" in the traditional Ami tongue was made in 1988 by a French cultural organization. A sample of the tape ultimately made its way onto the Enigma song "Return To Innocence," a worldwide smash that was adopted as the theme song of the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta. "Return To Innocence" has also been featured in such television shows and films as Man Of The House and Exit To Eden. The song and the album have generated a gross U.S. income of more than $25 million, according to Ellisen. The record companies named in the suit have responded by saying that Kuo Ying-Nan and his wife "gave their permission" for use of their singing, and that statutes of limitation on the couple's claim have expired. The International Olympic Committee, also a defendant, argues in a written response to the suit that the couple's rendition of a traditional song is subject to "fair use." A trial start has not yet been scheduled, according to Ellisen, but a July date could be set at a hearing today (Mar. 4) in Los Angeles. The complaint seeks "attribution of authorship" and "damages equal to a fair share of the profits that the defendants have achieved from exploitation of the work," he added. - -- Troy J. Augusto, Los Angeles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:27:19 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Cary Raditz, Eric Anderson & Joni Sarah Whitaker writes asking ... > >As an ignorant newcomer to this list, >I was wondering who Joni was writing about in her song Carey. Sarah, welcome to the JMDL and our little community. i'm sure you'll come to enjoy your time spent here. as for your question, you'll find the answer in an old post from the JMDL Archives. for now ~ take care > > >From: simon@icu.com >Subject: Eric Anderson ~ About Joni >Date: Sat. March 7, 1998 > >with all the LP's and CD's purchased ... is it any wonder that sometimes >things fall thru the cracks? > >recently i've been listening to "Stages: The Lost Album" by Eric Anderson, >an old friend of Joni's. this literally *was* a lost album. it was >recorded between november 1972 and february 1973 and was to be the >follow-up release to Eric's "critically acclaimed" LP "Blue River". > >unfortunately the master tapes were lost. a total screw-up on the part >of Columbia Records because of the great music and also the lost momentum >Eric's career suffered. some of the songs were re-recorded for an LP >released by Arista records, but ... the moment was lost ... and the >magic was missing. > >the tapes [40 reels] were finally discovered in a NYC vault in 1989 >and the music was finally! released in 1991. > >i bought it then but hadn't really listened often until recently. >i also hadn't completely read the 'liner notes', where i found the >following: > > >IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME >_______________________________________________________________ >Through my friendship with Joni Mitchell, that song came about. >You just miss your friends, and it would be great to see each >other again. >_______________________________________________________________ > > It's been a long time > Since we shared ourselves > The way we did > Before love went away > > What's yours is still mine > And all i felt > I must admit > Is still with me today > > How can we trust in it > When tomorrow seems to be so far away > It seems so distant > And sorrows always seem to get so far inside our way > > Hey, hey, hey, what do your dreams bring > I can't say what they mean anymore > > It's been a long time > Since we've had the time > To be ourselves > Like we were together > Now is it just rhymes > To describe the things inside > That still really matter > > How can we trust in it > When tomorrow seems to be so far away > It seems so distant > And sorrows always seem to get so far inside our way > > Hey, hey, hey, what do your dreams bring > I can't say what they mean anymore > > Have you changed > Do they make you more afraid > > Hey, hey, hey, what do your dreams bring > I can't say what they mean anymore > > (c) 1973 > ________________________________________ > > > >and then there was this: > >TIME RUN LIKE A FREIGHT TRAIN >__________________________________________________________________________ >I was looking out a hotel window on a rainy New York day, and it was very >evocative, suddenly it set a mood and an atmosphere, and i wrote a poem. >Enter Cary Raditz, one of Joni Mitchell's gypsy friends she knew from >Crete; she wrote "Cary, Get Out Your Cane" about him and he later became >my roommate. I first met him with Lee Clayton at a New York Earth Day >Be-In celebration but now he had just blown into town from Nepal. >I showed him the poem i'd just written, he studied it, smiled, stood up >and proclaimed to the room that it must be sung to music! I put my guitar >into open-E tuning and set to work. By dawn it was written into a song, >a personal spiritual anthem, but not heading up or down, just heading >further along. >__________________________________________________________________________ > > >BTW: the album "BLUE RIVER" contains Eric's captivating vocal on the song >"Is It Really Love At All" as well as Joni's background vocal on the title >song "Blue River". > >------- > simon >------- > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:51:54 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: NJC bumrush From: "Tube" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:02:24 +0100 >from:New Oxford dictionary >bum-rush >.....verb [with OBJ.] U.S. informal - suddenly force or barge one's way into: >fans bum-rushed record stores. Thanks. My dictionary is old, english, and goes from bumpy to bun with nothing in between. Tube. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:51:07 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Carey From: "Helen M. Adcock" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:18:50 +1300 Sarah in Sydney wrote: <> The song is reported to be about James Taylor, who Joni was in a relationship with at the time, just having split with Graham Nash (although they remained on very good terms) or some say she left him for Taylor - who knows. Personally I think "Blue" is her best album by far - the songs have a gut-wrenching personal quality about them - like they were all written from the depths of her soul. That's not to say that isn't the case with all her music, but for me, "Blue" is the quintessential Joni album! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:50:14 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Urge For Going From: "Helen M. Adcock" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:01:37 +1300 Ange asked: <> Bob replied: The only "album" it appears on is "Hits". It was first released as the flip side of your dreaded "You Turn Me On..." (I think) :^) I replied to both: According to Brian Hinton's biography "Both Sides Now" Joni never actually recorded "Urge For Going" for any album - so although it appears on "Hits", it would only previously have been available on bootleg. FYI - It was also partly recorded by David Crosby and Graham Nash for one of their duo albums, but they had a huge fight in the studio half-way through, and it never got finished. Nash went back years later and finished it off and presented it to Crosby as a peace-offering. That version is in CSN's box set, and well worth a listen, in my opinion! Helen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:13:35 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Urge For Going From: "Helen M. Adcock" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:01:37 +1300 <> Helen, be careful when using Hinton's book as a reference. I haven't read it but many listers have cautioned about it being full of misinformation. The first part of the statement is true - UFG wasn't on any of Joni's albums, but it *was* released as the B-side of "You Turn Me On...", so Hinton is mistaken here, as a B-side of the 45 would *not* constitute a "bootleg" recording but rather a sanctioned release. Bob, who would be glad to assist as needed with an FAQ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:13:09 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Cary Raditz, Eric Anderson & Joni In a message dated 3/4/99 11:29:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, simon@icu.com writes: << Sarah Whitaker writes asking ... > >As an ignorant newcomer to this list, >I was wondering who Joni was writing about in her song Carey. >> Sarah, In the BBC concert she did with James Taylor back in 1970 (?), she introduces Carey by saying it's about a friend from Matla, London, New York and North Carolina. Does that give you more of a clue? Paul Ivice ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:21:10 EST From: Strummed@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC bumrush let the buns have it, Chri$ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:32:17 EST From: Strummed@aol.com Subject: mark isham plug (n.j.c.) yes i been seeing mark ishams' name mentioned a bit lately so my radar is up for the artist. go to prax something new this morning, pulled out "PURE MOODS" and loe and behold track 15 "My wife with champagne shoulders" by Mark Isham. excellent. i've praxed with this song many times and didn't realize it was his composition. always admired the piece way back to, although it is techno surrounding. hats off mark. thats what i call being introduced to an artist thru the back door. also goes with out saying to know who the artist is your playing to is just as important as knowing the tune itself. although not a requirement it is part of the territory now isn't it ? speak on mac duff. Yours musically, Chri$. n.p. dream theaters, "AWAKE" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:30:53 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Urge For Going In a message dated 3/4/99 1:54:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: << According to Brian Hinton's biography "Both Sides Now" Joni never actually recorded "Urge For Going" for any album - so although it appears on "Hits", it would only previously have been available on bootleg. >> Well, I have a 45 with "Urge" as the B side of "You Turn Me On," which demonstrates once again that the Hinton book is loaded with inaccuracies and should NEVER be used as anything close to a reliable source about Joni, or anything else for that matter. My advice is if you have a copy of it, throw it out. Do not give it away or recycle it as this will allow Mr. Hinton to continue to spread his innaccuracies (I hesitate to call them "lies" because I do not know whether they were intentional or merely the result of laziness or misinformation provided to him by other sources). In any case, you should not buy it, nor sell it, nor lend it to anyone. Pieces of trash that result from poor reporting and inaccurate writing belong in the garbage. Paul Ivice ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 12:23:45 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - March 4 1971: Rolling Stone publishes an article on Joni, saying "Canadians are stunned by the vague, awesome level that Joni Mitchell has reached. She was the least-known of the Toronto group of folksingers of the Sixties." Read the full article at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/rs710304.htm 1974: Joni performs at the Dorothy Chandler Pavallion in Los Angeles 1983: Joni performs in Osaka, Japan - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 12:25:30 -0700 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - March 5 1974: Joni performs at the Anaheim Convention Center 1989: (from Wally's bio): An all-star group gathered in Britain [today] to record "The Spirit of the Forest" single, with proceeds going to the Earth Love Fund for the preservation of the Brazilian rainforests. At the end of the month, recording on the single continued in New York City and it was there that Joni added her one line about saving the birds and the monkeys. Some of the other musicians and singers involved in the project were Chris Rea, XTC, Bonnie Raitt, Ringo Starr, Olivia Newton-John, Thomas Dolby, and Kate Bush. A video of "The Spirit of the Forest" was released to video outlets on June 2 to coincide with United Nations Day. 1991: The album "Night Ride Home" is released - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:09:36 EST From: Strummed@aol.com Subject: Re: Urge For Going Hold the presses. are there any photos? save the photos there accurate. can't fool the camera lens, it doesn't blink. good advice about accuracy though. Chri$. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:19:17 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: shaking fists at lightning...(NJC) greetings listers. i am writing to bid all of you a fond farewell, at least for a little while. i know i have not been much in evidence around here lately anyway, so i will not be missed, but even so...this place, quirky and weird and frequently maddening and often wonderful has come to mean much to me. (go figure!) but life has intervened. i am too exhausted to write this post over and over to the many many people who have come to mean so much to me, so i am directing it to the list in general. i keep thinking of shakespeare's king lear. "as flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods. they kill us for their sport." last sunday my wife, suffering from a terrible headache, became disoriented and confused. she could not remember the name of our 8 year old. thinking she was having a stroke, i took her to the emergency room where a mestatic mass was found on the left side of her brain. several more lesions have now been found in her liver and the doctors are continuing to look for more, but needless to say, things do not look good. i am kind of overwhelmed, which is the understatement of the decade. but, with all this going on, and having to wear all the hats in this household (i am finding out that judy wore most of them!!) i can no longer justify the amount of time and devotion this list requires. as much as it provides me with a needed distraction from the gathering dread, i guess my children need me more, and that is what i have to focus on. judy and i both lost parents when we were kids. she was 13 when her mother died of brain cancer and i was 14 when my father sailed off in his yacht and never came back again. those separate losses caused a bond between us when we first met many years ago, and also gave us both what was probably a very neurotic, very desperate wish to see our children into adulthood as whole as we could possibly manage. they are beautiful girls, happy and smart and full of enthusiasm for their lives, but it appears as though we are not going to have our dearest wish fulfilled as far as they go. judy is facing, at best, brain surgery that will leave her with major deficits in her memory and cognitive functions, or, radiation treatments that will leave her weak and frail and gaunt. it is ripping my heart out to think that my babies are going to lose the most important person in their lives, to one extent or another. so these are hard times, but as paul simon wrote: "hard times? i'm used to that." my children, however, are most decidedly not used to that. they need a full time daddy right now. so it's time for me to step up to that particular plate and see if i have the right stuff. wish me well. i send you all the very best! i feel pretty confident i will be back someday, once this storm has passed. maybe a better and stronger person than the one who is saying good-bye to you today. with love and great respect - ric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:25:36 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Slouching Towards Bethlehem In a message dated 3/2/99 9:04:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: > Ginamu@aol.com wrote: > I still maintain that to say she is as great a poet as Yeats is > > > somewhat like saying she is as great a painter as Van Gogh because she > painted > > the spoof on the self-portrait for the cover of Turbulent Indigo. > Then Jerry responded with: > Apples and oranges in my book. > Jerry A still life, perhaps? Gina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 18:01:32 -0400 From: Lisa Durfee Subject: Re: Urge For Going IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > demonstrates once again that the Hinton book is loaded with inaccuracies and > should NEVER be used as anything close to a reliable source about Joni, or > anything else for that matter. > My advice is if you have a copy of it, throw it out. > > In any case, you should not buy it, nor sell it, nor lend it to anyone. > Pieces of trash that result from poor reporting and inaccurate writing belong > in the garbage. > Paul Ivice Thanks. I've been wondering what you folks thought of this book. I felt very resentful that I paid retail for this book and realized quickly that all this guy did for research was thumb through a bunch of old magazine articles -that are so often more of the same misinfo and speculation and concoctions. Its like triple generation distorted BS. Lisa D. np: Rosanne Cash- 7th Avenue you guys are inspiring me dig out all this great music I haven't listened to in a while. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:15:08 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Re: Urge For Going Bob wrote: >Helen, be careful when using Hinton's book as a reference. I haven't >read it but many listers have cautioned about it being full of misinformation. Fair enough - I've actually read similar reviews about his book, but as UFG has never been on an album, it seemed reasonable - and he is a true fan! Sometimes I hate living in NZ - very hard to get hold of Joni information (thank God for the Internet). I actually bought Hinton's book while on holiday in LA. And of course, I've never seen her in concert, although I would sell my soul to do it. She probably has been here years ago, but I was probably about 10, and still listening to Abba (one of my more embarassing admissions!). Glad I found the discussion list! Helen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 19:44:09 -0500 From: The Humphreys Subject: Re: Joni on Slouching Towards Bethlehem/D. Baerwald Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com wrote: > > Bob wrote: > > I'm no David Baerwald historian, but I first picked up on him as half of "David > + David"(someone he.lp me with the album title), the other half being David > Ricketts > I forgot about this album! Thanks for the reminder! Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 20:04:55 -0500 From: The Humphreys Subject: Re: royalties NJC David wrote: > And I think I've read that many of the early ballad collectors in the > British Isles were told by their informants that they knew a certain > ballad, but wouldn't sing it for the collector because it was "somebody > else's" -- someone to whom it had special meaning or who performed it > unusually well. > I don't know Sam Bush, or the context of this conversation, but I > wonder if it was the idea of "moral property" that made him not want to > use the phrase -- not from fear of copyright infringement, but out of > respect for the other person? Anyway, I think it's a concept to keep in > mind in pondering questions of copyrighting, paying royalties on, and > using or appropriating traditional music. > I very much appreciate this post. I was in a bit of a snit when I went off on my ownership tangent. Anyway, I want to respond to the balladier portion of your post. I am very active in English Morris Dancing that very much includes singing of traditional songs at the end of a day of dancing. It is very much an oral tradition of song that I first found fascinating and now cannot live without! I guess that is where I was "coming from" when I so brazenly disposed possession of music. Of course you are right regarding "moral property" and I too appreciate that. My friends Eddie and Sam are very much in that vein. I just find it a bit disturbing as well, maybe on a different level. It's very much a layered topic with many views and feelings. Part of me wishes for more respect for the power of words, and another wishes everyone would just loosen up! :-) Adios for now, Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:49:38 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Urge For Going In a message dated 3/4/99 7:20:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, hell@ihug.co.nz writes: << Fair enough - I've actually read similar reviews about his book, but as UFG has never been on an album, it seemed reasonable - and he is a true fan! >> Sorry, but I must disagree strongly here. A "true fan" would not exploit Joni or any other artist to make money for himself without the cooperation or consent of that artist. I think Hinton is just a hack writer who saw an opportunity to make a buck by "writing" a book about on a subject that has not been extensively covered. Paul Ivice ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:05:39 +1300 From: "Helen M. Adcock" Subject: Brian Hinton Paul Ivice wrote: >Sorry, but I must disagree strongly here. >A "true fan" would not exploit Joni or any other artist to make money for >himself without the cooperation or consent of that artist. I think Hinton is >just a hack writer who saw an opportunity to make a buck by "writing" a book >about on a subject that has not been extensively covered. OK, I need to clarify this. Having read the book several times, MY perception of Brian Hinton is of someone who is a fan of Joni Mitchell's music - so far as he tends to harshly criticize nearly every unfavourable review of her work, and rhapsodises at length about a number of songs/albums. I don't particularly want to get into a debate about his morals at having written the book (and the "accuracy" of the information), but I will say that he obviously has listened to all the albums more than once (but probably not as often as me!), and in my opinion, no one does that unless they are a fan in the first place! Agree or disagree at will! Helen NP - Dusty Springfield - Greatest Hits (and sadly there won't be any more) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #107 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?