From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #80 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, February 16 1999 Volume 04 : Number 080 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- I love ya all! (njc) [evian ] Re: Audiophiles corner - audio quality of TTT ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: I love ya all! (njc) ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: HOSL's Theme [MGVal@aol.com] Re: HOSL's Theme [Jerry Notaro ] Re: HOSL's Theme [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re[2]: HoSL- (AKOJC) [all kinds of joni content] [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.] NJC - Legal Weed [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: NJC - Legal Weed [Jerry Notaro ] HOSL [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: HOSL [Jerry Notaro ] Re: NJC - Legal Weed ["Don Rowe" ] Re: I love ya all! (njc) [Bounced Message ] Re[2]: NJC - Legal Weed [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: NJC - Legal Weed ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: Re[2]: NJC - Legal Weed ["Don Rowe" ] Re[4]: NJC - Legal Weed [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: NJC - Legal Weed ["Don Rowe" ] Re: Re[2]: NJC - Legal Weed [IVPAUL42@aol.com] first albums, cds, etc. [evian ] Re: first albums, cds, etc. (NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] Re: first albums, cds, etc. (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: NJC - Legal Weed [Mark Domyancich ] Re: NJC - Legal Weed ["Scott Crane" ] Re: first albums, cds, etc. ["Kakki" ] Re: first albums, cds, etc. ["Davina Greenstein" ] Re[4]: NJC - Legal Weed [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: first albums, cds, etc. [Jerry Notaro ] Re: first albums, cds, etc. [DKasc13293@aol.com] Re[2]: NJC - Legal Weed [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: first albums, cds, etc. (NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] Re: first albums, cds, etc. [DKasc13293@aol.com] Re: first albums, cds, etc. [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Re[2]: NJC - Legal Weed ["Scott Crane" ] html Help (NJC) [michaelb@coolgold.com.au (Michael)] NJC - first albums, cds, etc. [Les Irvin ] first albums, etc. [Medric Faulkner ] Re: HoSL [catman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:32:20 -0600 From: evian Subject: I love ya all! (njc) Hi all, It's late so I will keep this short. I just had to tell y'all how great this list is. Last week I joined a Fleetwood Mac list, and I haven't even posted yet... I walked into some big ole fight and people were stomping off and having hissy fits because of something SOOO LAME! It still doesn't even make sense to me. THEN, I subscribed to a Stevie newsgroup... let me tell ya, freaks and weirdos!! Someone posted "I am new, what ever happened with Stevie and Lindsey?" and people were screaming "I hate this question, everyone asks, it was 20 years ago, get over it, lame-ass" and other wonderful posts like that. Then there was a big ole flame war going on, which I got my nose into because it was so stupid. Instead of Stevie info, it was a few hundred posts of "you freak, I hate you" etc. Then, there were the types that you just knew are stalker material, and the whole thing gave me the willies! Anyway, I just had to tell you all that after I have checked out these bizarre lists and groups, the JMDL rocks!! Hell, when there is heated debate going on here, it would look like a Sunday school picnic with the Osmond family over on the Stevie newsgroup. Well, just had to tell you all that the JMDL is a really great place to be! Evian (who has to be up in 5 and a half hours and isn't even remotely tired... argh) np: "Dance, Dance, Dance" -- Chic ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 04:38:25 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Audiophiles corner - audio quality of TTT jlamadoo@one.net wrote: << I just wish she had recorded it better so we wouldn't have to listen through the sludge. The new album is so harsh that even a cassette copy of the album [:D] sounds glassy. It's not the tape, it's the recording. So please Joni, hire an engineer next time! >> How can I say this without violating netiquette? Sludge?! Harsh?! You need an ear exam! I'm not a sound snob but I know beautiful music when I hear it. The only flaw I find on TTT is the inclusion of Lead Balloon. But even that song is light-years beyond what I hear regurgitated on the radio. I've listened to TTT hundreds of times on the finest stereos and am increasingly blown away by the crystalline sound Joni delivers. Ten years from now engineers will be copying it's sound. If only Joni would produce albums - yes, ALBUMS - for bands like U2 then maybe we would hear something fresh for a change. Listening to Jeff Buckley's Sketches For My Sweetheart The Drunk, I am most impressed by the raw sound of his unfinished works from the hissing of summer tape. Engineers tend to overproduce and I am so glad Joni has rarely fallen into that trap. And even when she did (on Dog Eat Dog) I still love it! When I contemplate the suggestion that Joni hire Lindsey Buckingham to produce her next album - yes ALBUM - I cringe. The woman of heart & mind knows what she is doing.... E.T. NP: The Sound Of Silence ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:23:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: Lyrics and Poems book From: Brian Gross >While in Barnes and Noble tonight, I spotted the softbound first edition >of the book. Being the curious jmdler that I am, I checked it out. >It includes the lyrics to TTT. >That's good. >It also includes the errors that we found in the hardbound first edition. >That's not so good. > >I think it was Howard in the UK that was compiling the errata, wasn't it? >Did the corrections ever get forwarded to the appropriate parties? Yes they did - unfortunately, the errors never got corrected though. It's actually a while since I knew that the paperback edition would basically have all the same errors in it. Having put in a *lot* of work to compile the errors, obviously I wasn't too happy when I found out, and at the time I didn't feel like sharing the bad news with the list. I collected all the errors, typed them all up in a list, and sent the file to Wally in April last year. He had to chase up the folks at Random House publishing, but finally agreed with them that they would use the corrections and would credit us in the book. This took some time, and Random House were a bit slow to respond ... In the mean time, Wally also asked me to check through the lyrics on his site - since I had an accurate set of lyrics to check them with. Warner Bros. has contacted Wally and wanted permission to use the lyric files from his web site for the anthology songbook they were preparing. It made sense to get these corrected, to make sure the songbook didn't spread the same errors. I did this, and sent Wally the new files just before leaving for a conference and holiday in the USA and Canada. When I got back at the end of July, I had a mail from Wally saying "Random House are finally getting organised, and they need the list of corrections right away!". Unfortunately, Wally didn't realise that he had the file already - I'd sent it a few months back. By the time I read the mail, the deadline had already passed, so the new edition got printed without the corrections :-( I guess the only "silver lining" is the fact that the anthology songbook should have accurate lyrics. Kind of stupid that the "Lyrics and Poems" book doesn't, but there it is. I was pretty frustrated and annoyed, but at the same time I realised that Wally already had a mountain of things to organise for his web site, plus he was facing up to his health problems, so it's understandable that things like this can happen. The fact that Random House delayed for so long, and then suddenly had to have everything RIGHT NOW didn't help either, but this seems to be how publishing works. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:38:03 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: I love ya all! (njc) evian wrote: > Hi all, > It's late so I will keep this short. I just had to tell y'all how > great this list is. Last week I joined a Fleetwood Mac list, and I > haven't even posted yet... I walked into some big ole fight and people > were stomping off and having hissy fits because of something SOOO LAME! > It still doesn't even make sense to me. THEN, I subscribed to a Stevie > newsgroup... let me tell ya, freaks and weirdos!! It's like that all over the internet. Except for this list. This is the only place I know that's truly worth being around. Apart from the JMDL, I only subscribe to the Nordic Culture Newsgroup, where people also are pretty well-mannered, but not nearly as interesting and diverse as they are here. 3 months of circlic discussion why and how the Aaland Islands belong to Finland and not Sweden... And then, there's these terrible cross-posts from other newsgroups....YUK! Everybody gets the following they deserve. Joni makes high-quality music and has got high-quality fans! Winfried np: Red Hot Chili Peppers -- Mother's Milk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:11:37 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: HOSL's Theme In a message dated 99-02-16 02:24:59 EST, sp@olympus.net writes: > "HOSL is a suburban album," she says. I see it as an essay >about society..<<>> >duality with Scarlett, cast iron and frail; shadows and light, wrong and >right...they're all the lady's choice to illustrate this portrait of society. > I think that this nicely sums things up. As I wrote before, a feminist theme is too narrow, yet feminism is in there. Maybe not by saying "Stand up for equal rights," but by describing these limiting roles and letting the listener think for themselves. Sometimes, we live our lifes and accept the status quo without a lot of analysis until an artist puts their paint or words or music on the scene. And something in it can start the critical thought process that is often necessary for enlightenment; what I like to call the "Hey, wait a minute" moment of change. And although I know that I'm taking a bold step here in commenting on sound quality, to me, the "muddy" sound of the drums on "Jungle Line," is perfect for the song. I was thinking about that while watching "Jumanji" with my kids last night. The game had that muffled drum beat, (or so the closed caption said...). It was just enough to hear and prick the edges of curiosity. The drums on "Jungle Line" work the same way for me in that it is not meant to be the backbone of the song as much as spinal fluid. (the accounting analogy that I had was too boring to use). MG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:46:48 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: HOSL's Theme Scott Price wrote: > A few recent posts have explored some of Joni's concepts while recording > "Hissing of Summer Lawns." I'd like to offer the following quote from Joni > originally printed in a Rolling Stone interview from 1979.... > > "The Hissing of Summer Lawns is a suburban album. About the time that > album...... As always, her words about her work are better than any other. > > > Joni also said she wrote most of the songs while in Los Angeles. Her > surroundings have often provided seeds for much of the material contained > in the projects (albums); for example, as we know "For The Roses" was > written from her cottage in British Columbia, "Court & Spark" was a > combination of Canada and L.A., and "Hejira" was written while on the road. > These settings have provided a large portion of the overall shape and feel > of these albums. "HOSL is a suburban album," she says. And may I add Ladies of the Canyon? Definitely a product of her surroundings. And you can almost hear Greenwich Village in much of her early work. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:44:41 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: HOSL's Theme Scott wrote: << It strikes me as more "observational" rather than her attempt to make political statements. I think she was quite content to be living in the 'burbs but also wrote lyrics about big city life to balance everything out. Joni further examined duality with Scarlett, cast iron and frail; shadows and light, wrong and right...they're all the lady's choice to illustrate this portrait of society.>> Thanks for reprinting the RS comments, Scott... The main duality is the contrast between "All-American apple pie suburbia" where everything is supposed to be so rosy and isn't; things are much darker than they appear, like the priest with the pornographic watch, looking long and on the sly...even the cover shows 'the snake in the grass'. The similar theme abounds in the work of David Lynch. "Eraserhead" is hard to 'erase' from your memory with the nightmarish "baby" that the protaganist has to deal with. Likewise, the start of "Blue Velvet" (his masterpiece IMO) starts with a parade going by, surely an example of wholesome Americana - then the camera pans down to portray ants in a battle with other insects, meaning that below the surface of all this "happiness", there's some equally nasty business going on. Twin Peaks exposed the sordid behind-the-scenes in a small town as well. Maybe Lynch was influenced by HoSL, which as I recall was influenced by "Diary of a Mad Housewife"...? I would imagine this is actually a common theme, the false front of a "Happy Family" with darkness bubbling below the surface... Bob NP: David Baerwald, "Dance" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:20:24 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: HoSL- (AKOJC) [all kinds of joni content] Marcel, with red grading pen in hand, wrote about HOSL: <> Maybe so, but one of the *most* significant attributes of much of Joni's work is that I don't have to determine what it means to everyone but rather what it means to me; and THAT is always very real with no stretch at all... <> OK, you cover yourself here :~), but I would take it a step further to say that art can inspire us to levels we never imagined were possible for us, to plant a seed that *never* was there... <> But there's not really a lot of examples of this happening, are there? "Little Green" was recorded way after it was written, maybe because it was just too emotional for her to perform and she decided to include it in the confessional "Blue". "Jericho" shows up on MOA, but doesn't get into the studio until DJRD. "Urge For Going", "For Love Or Money", and a mess of other songs NEVER show up on studio albums. So I think perhaps some of what you're saying here is true but some is not;The vast majority of Joni's "albums" are more than collections of unconnected songs, they do offer themselves up for thematic interpretation. I do agree though that she includes songs on albums that wouldn't have "fit" on prior releases (Like Jericho & Little Green). And from what I've read, most of her collaborations (vocal anyway) were just spontaneous combinations of folks who happened to be in the studio at the same time. Of course, I could be wrong...:~) << The most striking thing to me about HOSL is its raw daring and the oddball session players she had play with her.>> Could you be more specific here Marcel? I'd like to hear your thoughts to enlighten myself. <> And as much as it would be a fascinating read, I think it would de-sensitize the songs for me - as tempting as it would be, I think I would avoid such a book... Thanks Marcel for a very thought-provoking post! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:24:28 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: NJC - Legal Weed And while I'm thinking about the Rolling Stone, I was reading the latest issue which featured yet another article on why marijuana should be legalized and had pictures of the "poor" victims who are doing jail time for marijuana possession and distribution...In all the years I've been reading RS, this is one topic they just won't let go of. Maybe that's being true to their generation, I don't know. Is it just me, but didn't these folks know that what they were doing was illegal? Sure they did. Did they know what the consequences were? Sure they did. If I choose to smoke legal cigarettes, I take responsibility for the health damages that can occur to me. If I drink and drive, I accept the risk that I could lose my license, crash my car, go to jail, all of the above. If I smoke marijuana (laws vary from state to state I know) but legal consequences can also occur and I assume the risk of breaking what I understand to be the law. Most of the thrust of the article was the amount of money the govt. spends on its "drug war", and I'm in agreement that there are better things we can direct our resources to, but that's not my point. Why do I not feel sorry for these folks who broke the law and suffered the consequences? I'm not a compassion-less guy, I do feel sorry for those who suffer due to injustices beyond their control; I just don't think potsmokers fit into this category. To me it's like speeders getting a ticket. What do you guys think? Bob NP: Joni from CBS this morning, "Facelift" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:47:58 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: NJC - Legal Weed Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com wrote: > What do you guys think? Legalize. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:15:46 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: HOSL I could go on for days and days about why I love this album, and, you know, I probably will. Though I have a little bit of the psychologist and a lot of the political scientist inside of me, I am truly a sociologist before all, and I think HOSL is by many degrees Joni's most sociologically exploratory/expository album. Marcel wrote: <<>> It is true that sometimes we can lapse into stoned-therefore- brilliant-teenager mode, but I do think HOSL supports a great deal of close reading. There are several clear, unambiguous, and IMHO brilliant artistic choices on this record that at least partially reveal Joni's intent. Since I've promised/threatened to go on for days, I'll start with the most obvious. With a larger than recommended postmodern fetish, I just L O V E her recasting of "Centerpiece" in "Harry's House." By simply recontextualizing another piece of work she inverts its meaning. The centerpiece that is an object of admiration and devotion in the original is suddenly a mere decoration, a trophy exploited for the purposes of its owner. Problem is that this trophy is a wife, a human with her own unmet and constrained needs. This recasting adds bite and complexity to its setting. I have missed this addition in her recent performances of this song. Another song I've been listening to a lot this weekend uses a similar technique for a different effect. Common, a rapper from the South Side of Chicago, has a song on his most recent album called "Retrospect for Life" in which the protagonist addresses the child he would have had if he and his girlfriend had not decided to abort the fetus. The protagonist feels he made the right decision because he was not in a position to be a good father, but the song focuses on the grief and regret that he feels nonetheless. The chorus is Lauryn Hill singing the refrain to Stevie Wonder's "I Never Dreamed You'd Leave in Summer." It's devastating. The recasting of a lost-romance song as a song to a departed child just pierces my heart. I'll get to the rest of HOSL soon... - --Michael NP: Monaco, _Music for Pleasure_ - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes I'm goody goody Right now I'm naughty naughty - --Aaliyah, "Are You That Somebody?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:27:00 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: HOSL Michael Yarbrough wrote: > I could go on for days and days about why I love this album, > and, you know, I probably will. Though I have a little bit of the > psychologist and a lot of the political scientist inside of me, I > am truly a sociologist before all, and I think HOSL is by many > degrees Joni's most sociologically exploratory/expository > album. And, sadly one I had to return to. I was one of the many Joni fans who moaned at first listening. And though I listened to it many times, it took a back seat in my collection. She was right, and I was wrong. It is one of her (or anybody's) best work. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:36:38 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: NJC - Legal Weed Just a couple of points before I let my long hair spill out from under my hat ... >If I drink and drive, I accept the risk that I could lose my license, >crash my car, go to jail, all of the above. I think "If I drink and drive, I obviously don't care about the fact that I'm going to kill myself and/or somebody else" might be more to the point here. I say this because drunk drivers do lose their licenses, go to jail ... then end up killing themselves and/or other innocent people. And before y'all jump on me, feel free to substitute the phrase "If I get stoned and drive ..." if you like, it's six a one, half a dozen the other as far as I'm concerned. So that being said ... legalize it. Prohibition never has, and never will work. I would be interested in hearing about this issue from the European wing of the jmdl ... Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:15:23 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: I love ya all! (njc) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:16:44 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro "Winfried Hühn" wrote: > evian wrote:Everybody gets the following they deserve. Joni makes > high-quality music and > has got high-quality fans! Sorry for the "me too" but it is so true. I joined another list to follow the reports on performances of another artist for whom I am a fan and I thought I was in junior high all over again. After just one week I un.su.bscribed. Yuck. This IS a unique site, much deserving credit going to our dear Les and Wally. Setting the tone as listowner and site owner very important. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:00:27 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: NJC - Legal Weed Don wrote: <> That's right, and it emphasizes that alcohol, a *LEGAL* drug, is a much bigger problem than marijuana - the lives destroyed by alcohol are many and impossible to measure... <> Agreed, since I was talking about accepting consequences of behavior...and indeed, driving stoned would increase exponentially if the drug were legalized. <> The reason this analogy doesn't fly for me is that Prohibition didn't work because it took something that was legal and tried to make it illegal, which obviously was a failure. Pot hasn't been legal in America, at least not as far as I know...I'm no expert. While legalizing it seems like the easy out (and a great source of tax revenue), the problem I see with it is this: There are basically 3 groups you can divide people into: (1) those who are going to smoke pot legal or not; (2) those who won't smoke it legal or not, and (3) those who won't smoke it if it's illegal, but would if it was legal. We have no clue how large a number this third category is. OK, so if alcohol, which is legal, causes all the social problems it does (as referenced in your example above), why would we want to throw more mind-altering substances into the mix knowing that once you do, it's irreversible (like Prohibition). << I would be interested in hearing about this issue from the European wing of the jmdl ...>> A big "me too" on that... Bob NP: Ray Bailey "You Sold Your Love" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:08:20 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: NJC - Legal Weed Don Rowe schrieb: > So that being said ... legalize it. Prohibition never has, and never > will work. I would be interested in hearing about this issue from the > European wing of the jmdl ... > Well, it's a controversial issue basically everywhere! Here in Germany, possessing small amounts of marijuana for personal use is at least practically legal, because there are guidelines issued by the state attorneys not to prosecute the possession of small amounts. Our constitutional court has ruled that due to marijuana being less damaging to one's health than nicotine, it would be "unproportional" to enforce the law under such circumstances. Generally, our laws prohibit the possession of all kinds of drugs. I think this is a pretty good and practical approach. I'm against legalizing marijuana entirely, because it often is a "beginner's" drug, and unlike cigarettes and alcohol, it is consumed exclusively to get high. Even when this isn't unhealthful at once, it is psychologically dangerous especially for adolescents, because it may interfere with their process of becoming emotionally-balanced, responsible adults who can solve problems on a rational basis instead of running away from them. The argument that a certain law "does not work" I cannot find very convincing. *All* criminal laws "do not work and never will work", because there are always violations. The question is: will there be less, or, at least, not more abusive behavior when there is no legal ban. At least here, it cannot be denied that the prohibition of marijuana still has some deterring effect. For Germany, my standpoint is a conservative one. Most of my Social Democratic/Green friends think it should be legalized . Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:48:24 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Re[2]: NJC - Legal Weed Bob writes ... >The reason this analogy doesn't fly for me is that Prohibition didn't >work because it took something that was legal and tried to make it >illegal, which obviously was a failure. Pot hasn't been legal in >America, at least not as far as I know...I'm no expert. Fair enough, although there was a great deal of time in American history where pot was "not illegal", meaning that there were no laws expressly allowing or disallowing its use. But I suppose I should have said "interdiction" rather than "prohibition" ... in any event, current policy has proven a monumental failure. >(3) those who won't smoke it if it's illegal, but would if it was >legal. We have no clue how large a number this third category is. If you ask the ultra-liberal ... not many if any. Ask the ultra-conservative ... millions and millions. This is one of the main things I'm interested in hearing about the European alternatives. I imagine the effects would be similar to those of lowering the legal drinking age, though I'm not in a position to quote specifics. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:01:54 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: NJC - Legal Weed And from Don: << But I suppose I should have said "interdiction" rather than "prohibition" ... in any event, current policy has proven a monumental failure.>> But would legalization be a bigger flop? Is that a gamble we want to take as a nation? And btw, I do think those who require pot for medical purposes should be exempt from the illegality, although you still get into some enforcement issues there. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:10:35 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: NJC - Legal Weed Thanks to Winifried for the international perspective. As the son of a lawyer-then-appellate court judge, I have a somewhat different view of the law. Not to risk calling down the ridicule of the lawyer contingent of the jmdl (yes I know you're out there!), my lay understanding is that the relative merits of any law can, in large part, be tied directly to its practical ease of enforcability. Passing a law that cannot be enforced is not much more effective than having no law at all. This, I think, is one of the primary failures of our American policies of interdiction. In a huge country with open borders and wide-ranging personal freedom, existing drug laws have proven wildly ineffective, and prohibitively costly. Which adds up, to me, to a law that "does not work." Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:31:39 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: NJC - Legal Weed In a message dated 2/16/99 2:02:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << The reason this analogy doesn't fly for me is that Prohibition didn't work because it took something that was legal and tried to make it illegal, which obviously was a failure. Pot hasn't been legal in America, at least not as far as I know...I'm no expert. While legalizing it seems like the easy out (and a great source of tax revenue), the problem I see with it is this: There are basically 3 groups you can divide people into: (1) those who are going to smoke pot legal or not; (2) those who won't smoke it legal or not, and (3) those who won't smoke it if it's illegal, but would if it was legal. We have no clue how large a number this third category is. OK, so if alcohol, which is legal, causes all the social problems it does (as referenced in your example above), why would we want to throw more mind-altering substances into the mix knowing that once you do, it's irreversible (like Prohibition). >> Two points in response, Bob. It is my understanding that marijuana WAS legal, if only be default, until sometime in the early '30s. That means it was legal during Prohibition. It simply wasn't widely known or popular, except maybe among jazz musicians or whatever (trying not to confuse real history with the history portrayed in "Reefer Madness.") Secondly, you make what I think is a false assumption that legalizing pot would ADD to the problem by creating pot smokers among people who currently do not use or abuse drugs. The biggest opponent to legalization of pot is the alcoholic beverage industry. They would lose a lot of customers who, if pot were legal, might switch to what I believe to be a LESS harmful *drug*. So I think your three groups is a severe oversimplification. The largest change would be people who USED to drink booze, but switched to cannabis cookies and no longer are obnoxious drunks at parties, football games and on the road. They are taking less drug and enjoying it more, and more often in more serene social gatherings. Imagine three different parties of young college students. One has several kegs of beer, another has pot and the third has both. Which party will have the fewest overintoxicated, sick or dangerous people leaving from it? Paul Ivice ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:39:38 -0600 From: evian Subject: first albums, cds, etc. Hi listers, I read this thread on one of those wacky lists I tried out, and I found it interesting. What was the first 45, LP, CD, cassette, etc. that you bought? BTW, if you actually find this totally lame, I really won't be offended if y'all ignore it! 45: either "Heart of Glass" by Blondie, or this Peter Frampton 45 that for the life of me I can't remember what it was called... 1978. LP: either a really awful April Wine album, or this K-tel thingy called "Right on" with all this disco and stuff on it, in grade one, 1977. cassette: Fleetwood Mac "Mirage", 1983. cassette single: "what you don't know" by Expose, 1989. CD: "Shaking the Tree", Peter Gabriel, 1990. 12" Single: "Into the Groove" by Madonna, and "I wonder if I take you Home" by Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam with Full Force, summer of 85. Evian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:10:32 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: first albums, cds, etc. (NJC) Okay, I'll play (and BTW, I've contributed to FAR lamer threads than this) ;-) 45: "Western Union" -- The Four Americans, circa 1969. I shit you not! LP: "Whipped Cream and Other Delights" -- Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass. 12" Single: "Rage Hard" -- Frankie Goes to Hollywood. And this was when 12-inch was, well, huge --1986 if memory serves. And I'll go you one better ... 8-track: "Frampton Comes Alive" (had it on LP too, and then on cassette. What was I thinking?) Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:22:47 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: first albums, cds, etc. (NJC) Don Rowe wrote: > And I'll go you one better ... > > 8-track: "Frampton Comes Alive" (had it on LP too, and then on > cassette. What was I thinking?) And I'll raise you one: 4-track: The Letter, by the Boxtops ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:15:57 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Re[2]: NJC - Legal Weed Paul wrote: > The biggest opponent to legalization of pot is the alcoholic beverage >industry. They would lose a lot of customers who, if pot were legal, might >switch to what I believe to be a LESS harmful *drug*. I think there has been a long-standing misperception that smoking marijuana is somewhat innocuous compared to smoking cigarettes or drinking alcohol. Studies done at major U.S. universities over 20 years ago found that the resin inhaled from smoking pot accumulates and stays in one's lungs forever. To me, the pot smoker's hacking cough always sounded much more severe than the cigarette smoker's hack. Also, the THC accumulates and stays in the pot smoker's brain forever. There could probably be some eventual medical problems associated with long-term or frequent use of pot. I do think it should be legalized for people suffering from cancer, glaucoma and other conditions where it greatly helps to alleviate symptoms and even have curative purposes. > They are taking less drug and enjoying it more, and more often in more >serene social gatherings. > Imagine three different parties of young college students. One has several >kegs of beer, another has pot and the third has both. > Which party will have the fewest overintoxicated, sick or dangerous people >leaving from it? Yes, but which party will also sometimes have a more lively and engaging group of people? ;-D Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:32:51 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: NJC - Legal Weed Legalize it and allow all pharmacies to sell it to glaucoma patients and everyday people in minimal amounts. Mark, wishing everybody, esp. Michael Paz a happy Mardi Gras At 11:24 AM -0500 2/16/99, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com wrote: > > > What do you guys think? > > Bob ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | |_________________________________| "Evil communications corrupt good manners." - I Corinthians 15:33 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:35:53 -0600 From: "Scott Crane" Subject: Re: NJC - Legal Weed > Is it just me, but didn't these folks know that what they were doing > was illegal? Sure they did. Did they know what the consequences were? > Sure they did. I think the issue concerning the current drug laws is relationship between what the crime is and what the punishment is. For example, if I get caught delivering a bag of pot to a friend I can get more jail time then if I rob a bank. Does that make sense? Granted, if the friend is a minor, yes. Or your dealing to high school kids or something. But jezz, make the punishment fit the crime. The other factor is that these guys are getting caught with drugs and then in order to get "out of it" they are ratting on everyone they know or even pertending to know. Even if that named person is in no way connected to the crime. The courts are convicting these people based almost solely on the testomony of the informants. There was a TV news show concerning this recently. As for the legallization, well..... I agree that having one more mind/body altering substance (besides alcohol) may not be such a good idea. But, like in the daze of alcohol prohibition, when enough people are breaking the law, the law needs to change. Now, don't use the agrument about we should not have any speed limits since almost everyone I know has had a speeding ticket at one time in their lives. Speeding puts other people in danger; smoking pot does not. Unless of course, just like legal alcohol, you decide to drive. Reminds me of when I was in the Air Force in the early 80s and I knew a women that worked for one of the contractors. Very attractive women. The pilots, of course, loved her. Back in those days, she was the type to not even ask, just light it up and pass it. Numerous pilots joined her. Now, back in those days even, just being suspected, could end your pilot's career. But I was amazed at the number of guys that did join her. Point being, you would be surprised at the number of people that do or have, especially the so called yuppie generation and younger. Pot has been proven over the years to be far less dangerous than the myrid of other legal drugs such as alcohol, tobacco, and even caffeine. That's not to say that it is completely harmless nor does it mean that it cann't be abused nor does it mean that its ok to get stoned and drive. Have you ever heard of anyone overdosing on marijuana? Have you ever heard of group of people get together and smoke a joint and then decide to get into a fight like I've seen with alcohol? Granted smoke pot and drink may led to violence, but just by smoking pot, I've never seen anyone get violent. Contrarily, it tends to mellow people. Personally, (and I know I'm opening a can of worms with this statement), given a choice, I'd rather see alcohol illegal and pot legal. The only "problem" I see with pot these days is that it is more potent than in the past and much more difficult than alcohol to "control" how much you do vs what effects you expect. With drinking, you know what 1 beer, 2 beers, 3 beers, etc does to you. But with pot, it depends upon what you have. Personally, I've found there is always a line between feeling good and feeling almost out of control thus not feeling good no matter what substance you are using. My contention is that it is harder to make an adult judgement on where that line is with marijuana. I could go on with my opinion because its something as an intellegent, emotionally and finacially secure person that I've thought about and come up with these and other conclusions. But I don't want to start to much a pissing contest with anyone. But, so far, I've not seen nor know too many people who are totally against responsable pot smoking. People just don't want to go to jail for smoking it. Here in Texas, I've known several people that have been caught with small amounts and have had the cop/highway patrol/etc just tell them to chuck it with no arrest. Now, these folks were not the "druggy types" and on the other hand, we are talking about somewhat conservative Texas. But most cops I've talked to don't want to go though the hassle and most believe the so called drug war to be a lost one. I've also found that unless you are dealing, growing or traveling with it in your car, your chances of getting caught are slim to none. OK, I'll get off my soap box..... for now..... :) Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:24:06 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: first albums, cds, etc. Evian wrote: > I read this thread on one of those wacky lists I tried out, and I >found it interesting. What was the first 45, LP, CD, cassette, etc. >that you bought? 45: Chad and Jeremy - Willow Weep For Me LP: First Beatles album on VeeJay label 8-track: Joni - Hissing of Summer Lawns Cassette: Either Steely Dan or Stephen Bishop - don't recall CD: Beatles White Album Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:36:09 -0800 From: "Davina Greenstein" Subject: Re: first albums, cds, etc. Evian Wrote: >I read this thread on one of those wacky lists I tried out, and I >found it interesting. What was the first 45, LP, CD, cassette, etc. >that you bought? Okay...I'm in (wondering if I should be after I write this...go easy on me okay)! First 45 - Linda Ronstadt - "When Will I be loved" First LP - The Stories - About US (I think) First CD - Eagles - Hotel California First Cassette - That's a toss up...but I think it was AC/DC Highway to Hell or Boz Skaggs Silk Degrees...not sure! - -Davina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:45:32 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: NJC - Legal Weed Paul said: <> First thanks for the info about the legal issue, (I said I wasn't an expert); second, while my model may be a severe oversimplification, I think yours may be a false assumption. The alcohol biz and our own culture wouldn't undergo such a rapid mindset change, plus I would guess at your college parties, I'll bet the third party is the most common (and the most dangerous) since college students, being what they are, will be simultaneously high *and* drunk. And, to inject JC, looking to raise Jesus up from the dead... Who knows? But it's enjoyable to speculate and discuss with intelligent folks with the appropriate life experiences anyway...:>) Bob NP: Ben Folds Five, "Song For The Dumped" (Where was *this* tune when *I* was in college...LOL!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:47:22 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: first albums, cds, etc. Kakki wrote: > Evian wrote: > > > I read this thread on one of those wacky lists I tried out, and I > >found it interesting. What was the first 45, LP, CD, cassette, etc. > >that you bought? > > 45: Chad and Jeremy - Willow Weep For Me I remember the Jack Jones version but not theirs. My first 45 was Stranger on the Shore, a gift for my 13th birthday. > LP: First Beatles album on VeeJay label Mine was on the VeeJay label, The Four Seasons, Rag Doll > > > 8-track: Joni - Hissing of Summer Lawns Never had one > > > Cassette: Either Steely Dan or Stephen Bishop - don't recall Joni - C&S > > > CD: Beatles White Album Goodbye Yellow Brick Road Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:51:01 EST From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: first albums, cds, etc. 45: Why Do You Build Me..... "Buttercup" baby, just to let me down. LP: The Supremes Greatest Hits (double album) extravagant for a nine year olds budget (more evidence that one is definately "born" into the family CD: Definately something of Joni Mitchell as a reissue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:55:19 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: NJC - Legal Weed Scott asks: << Have you ever heard of anyone overdosing on marijuana? >> Does binging at the Taco Bell when you're stoned count? :>D Seriously, Scott, you made a lot of great points - thanks for your in-depth response. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:59:03 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: first albums, cds, etc. (NJC) Jerry, raising the stakes, remembers -- > >4-track: The Letter, by the Boxtops > I'll call ... Quad LP: "2001 A Space Odyssey -- Motion Picture Soundtrack" bought by accident. I returned it as defective when it sounded funky on my regular stereo system ... but now I don't feel quite as foolish! Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:54:40 EST From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: first albums, cds, etc. 8 Track - Burt Bachrach "A House is Not a Home" Cassette - A new release of Joni Mitchell (whenever cassettes first came to popularity will dictate the album) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:09:24 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: first albums, cds, etc. What was the first 45, LP, CD, cassette, etc. that you bought? 45: Technically, the first 45 I bought was a gift for my sister, there were (2) that I bought for her "Dizzy" by Tommy Roe & "Time of the Season" by The Zombies LP: The Soundtrack to American Graffitti cassette: The only pre-recorded cassettes I ever bought were from a small company called "ROIR", mostly compilations - I always made my own tapes... cassette single: nope, nor CD single CD: Hejira, now I'm debating replacing it with the HDCD 12" Single: The *only* one I ever bought, "Don't Say Goodnight Tonight" by Paul McCartney Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:15:43 -0600 From: "Scott Crane" Subject: Re: Re[2]: NJC - Legal Weed > Scott asks: > > << Have you ever heard of anyone overdosing on marijuana? >> > > Does binging at the Taco Bell when you're stoned count? :>D Yea, I can see the news articles in the future if legalized: Americans getting more overweight due to getting "muchies" after pot smoking. > Seriously, Scott, you made a lot of great points - thanks for your > in-depth response. Your welcome Bob. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:57:47 +1100 (EST) From: michaelb@coolgold.com.au (Michael) Subject: html Help (NJC) Hi All I was wondering if there is someone out there that might be willing to give me a bit of a hand with some html coding?I am putting my extended family tree,back to 1600,not just the family tree but more like a huge photo album in a family tree format, on to a cd rom.I need some help with representing the whole tree in one page.I have tried with tables but just remembered that you can do a map like thing with coordinates,but have no idea where to start. Cheers Michael http://www.coolgold.com.au/~michaelb/index.html michaelb@coolgold.com.au Either we are alone in the universe ...........Or we're not............ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:05:41 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: NJC - first albums, cds, etc. I'll play! First 45: "Crimson and Clover" Tommy James and the Shondells First LP: "Headquarters" The Monkees First CD: "Hejira" Joni Mitchell and "As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls" Metheny/Mays (bought the same day) Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:11:47 -0800 (PST) From: Medric Faulkner Subject: first albums, etc. I'll take this one on. 45: Roberta Flack - Killing Me Softly LP: Melanie - Melanie at Carnegie Hall 8-track - Melanie - Stoneground Words Cassette: Joni Mitchell - DJRD CD: Joni Mitchell-Hejira _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:30:54 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: HoSL Regardless of what this album 'means', and I don't know, it is still one of my favourites. I remember taking it with me to a hi fi shop to hear how the system sounded with something I liked. I played Shadows and Light loudly on it. This is my favourite track on the album(although another time it might be another track!). As a result of doing this sevral other customers stopped and listend and asked who it was. This was 20 odd yearsago and they have become fans-you never know. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #80 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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