From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #78 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, February 15 1999 Volume 04 : Number 078 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- HoSL ["paul tyrer" ] Re: HoSL [catman ] AOL Warning...? [DreamZvil@aol.com] Re: Joni depicted on Saturday Night Live [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Joni depicted on SNL [Alan ] Audio philes NJC ["Tube" ] Favourite albums, Hejira HDCD remaster [Howard Wright ] Lucinda (NJC) [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Audio philes NJC [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: HoSL [Mark-n-Travis ] Re: Audio philes NJC [Mark-n-Travis ] Re: Audio philes NJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Audio philes NJC [Mark-n-Travis ] Re: Audio philes NJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: HoSL ["paul tyrer" ] Re: HoSL [IVPAUL42@aol.com] beyond the US? [Bounced Message ] Word from Leonard Cohen (NJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #77 [Bounced Message ] Plug Of The Week #6 ["Peter Holmstedt" ] Re: beyond the US? ["Marsha" ] Re: Audio philes/Billie Holiday NJC [Mark-n-Travis ] Happy Lupercalia - NJC ["bern.gallagher" ] Re: beyond the US? [Randy Remote ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:58:50 -0000 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: HoSL Hi everyone Today I've seen a coupla posts about HoSL and its slating by the critics. I've always understood the idea that it was JM's venture into jazz that provoked the slating, but I also think it was disliked because it was conceptualized around the position of women in 1970s America (Sorry if this is really old hat to you oldbies, but I'm on a newbie roll here!) - their effective containment by men and society and their simultaneous, dangerous, ability to break free from the patriarchal ties that bind... This subject matter wasn't something that the inevitably male critic of the 70s had any interest in, unlike JM's more directly personal 'I lost my baby' stuff, which is all about men! What does anyone else think?? Paul X ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:47:52 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: HoSL It was HOSL that first got me into Joni. I heard The Jungle Line on Radio Victory, Portsmouth in 75. It was one of those rare occurrences where I instsntly liked something. The only other album I bought on the strength of one listen was dreams by Grace Slick, in 80. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:01:57 EST From: DreamZvil@aol.com Subject: AOL Warning...? Hello all .... I haven't had a chance to check this out yet. Sounds legit - is it? - -Susan C.- ______________________________________________________________________________ ____________________ From A forwarded message: Hello to all my AOL friends... Today while I was online an AOL Billing information error screen popped up on my screen. It looked very legit. It said my billing cycle was up and they needed more info. It had numerous boxes for me to fill out. I.e.: Name, address, Town, State. On one side and Credit Card Info on the other... Card, Number, Expiration Date, Card holder name... The upper right hand box was whited out I could not X out of this. It had a "Submit" box to click. When I did that (I had not filled out ANY info) . It gave me an error requesting my name. I called AOL. THIS IS NOT AOL. IT LOOKS JUST LIKE "MEMBER SERVICE'S" INFO ... do not ... DO NOT FILL ANYTHING IN. YOU MUST "CONTROL, ALT, DELETE AND GET OUT OF AOL AND RESIGN ON"... PLEASE INFORM ANY OF YOUR OTHER BUDDIES ONLINE. I RECEIVED TWO OF THEM. PLEASE. IT'S SOMEONE TRYING TO GET YOUR INFO. IT IS NOT AOL.................. And one more... If you get a flashing IM, DO NOT reply or delete, but sign off immediately and re-sign on! Then change your password immediately. If you are unable to sign on, call AOL !!! The number is 1-800-827-6364 The Flashing IM is a password stealer. This has been confirmed by AOL. PLEASE FORWARD TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW ON AOL!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:15:04 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni depicted on Saturday Night Live Thanks a lot Marsha :) <> <> I wasn't totally focused on the SNL skit, and I thought they might have been poking fun at Joni. Thanks for clarifying their message. Also I know there's a lot of Lucinda Williams fans on the list and I heard that she's going to be the musical guest next week on SNL. Later, Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:26:53 -0600 From: Alan Subject: Re: Joni depicted on SNL Yes! This was the best laugh I've had from Saturday Night Live in a long time. Somebody, clearly, loves Joni and thinks Jewel should be (metaphorically) fed to the tigers. After spending $15 on Jewel's latest album and having my brain assaulted with, for the most part, some of the worst poetry I've seen in a long time, I thought this skit was perfect. (advance apologies to any Jewel fans... just my opinion) Alan Marsha wrote: > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:10:06 -0500 > From: "Marsha" > Subject: Joni depicted on SNL > > I just saw Joni get depicted on Saturday Night Live > in the cartoon skit "TV Funhouse" a bizarre twist > on real audio snips from entertainment sources. > A blond lass was reading poetry, morphed into Jewel, > was eaten by a TIGER and became Joni singing > the looped "Don't it always seem to go, you don't > know what you've got 'til it's gone...". > It was cute... > Jewel morphing into Joni and the animal props > began dancing happily. The message was the > latest incarnations of Joni suck. > You guys on the West Coast ought to try to catch it > 30 minutes into the show tonight. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:04:47 +0100 From: "Tube" Subject: Audio philes NJC > I remember reading an article regarding the production of "Babylon Sisters" > (from Gaucho) where they said the quest for perfection in the recorded sound > almost became prohibitive...the last 10 seconds, where the background vocals > sing 'you've got to shake it baby, you've got to shake i-i-i-i-t...took over > 300 takes to get the vocal blend just right!! >Part of what bugged me about 'Gaucho' was that it sounded so slick & manufactured. I guess that's part of why I don't care for 'the Dan'. I know Joni's a perfectionist too but her spirit & feeling speak to me clearly on every record. I don't detect much of anything underneath all that gloss on Steely Dan's records. But then I haven't listened to them like I've listened to Joni for 25 years so I could be wrong. Judging from the number of people who's opinions I respect on this list, I >probably am. My favourite records are one's with 'a lot going on' (as somebody put it) Stuff like the 'Diamond Dogs' title-track, or 'Big Brother' off the same album, Alice Cooper middle period, the Tina Turner Spector 'River deep Mountain High' or, yes, 'Jungle Line'. I think crisp production values in the studio are important, particulary if there's a lot going on on the track, but it's not essential, as a good track will carry an ambience to it if the artists and engineers are really cooking. Babylon Sister is very slick, but it's also a very clever song in every point of it's execution, and I love it. Slick and sterile production 25 years ago didn't hurt the music a bit. Most bands good enough to be signed had an originality that couldn't be formulised. Check out 'A Nod's as good as a Wink...' by The Faces - Very crisp full sound and you can hear every drumbeat but it rocks like a live set. The sleeve notes thanked Glyn Johns for his excellent production, but also proclaimed "We stomped all over that studio sterility." The problem today is too much formulaic 'pop music' in the charts. With today's slick production and hi-tech recording methods, the aural quality is so good that the bland commercial repetetive transparancy of most chart music comes through with painful clarity. If TTT sounds muddy to those of us with hi-fi's good enough to spot it, then perhaps it's an indication of Joni heading out on a Spectoresque 'Back To Mono' crusade'? A big, muddy, 'Wall of Sound approach? You have to be good to pull this off. The old cliche of early rock and rollers recording in the toilet for an echo chamber may be an exaggeration, but perhaps for a good band, that's all that's needed. Actually, for those of us who have NOT got good Hi-fi's (like me) it's always nice to upgrade to a new system and hear all the stuff carefully recorded on our favourite LPs that we couldn't hear before on our old system. Sometimes it's almost like hearing a new song. >Oh well. We Taureans are a stubborn lot! >Mark in Seattle No, it's not Taureans, it's Seattleans (ie Microsoft employees) Back to Flusho! Tube (showing his age so much that he talks about LPs and records, not CDs) (of which he only owns two!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:06:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: Favourite albums, Hejira HDCD remaster John Wasak wrote: >I just picked up the re-master (HDCD) of Hejira today. The thing that >caught my eye immediately was that only three of the tracks have the same >timings. All the others on the re-master are different, some by quite a >bit. For example, the older CD times the song "Hejira" at 6:35 while the >HDCD has a timing of 6:42. Could anyone explain why the timings of the >songs are different? It could be that the length of the fade-ins and fade-outs is a little different on the remasters. You could easily add 5 seconds or so this way, although you would barely notice it as the track would be so quiet when the "bonus seonds" showed up! But hey, if you get 7 more seconds of tracks like Hejira, it's still gotta be worth it! Suzanne wrote: >To add to the confusion, my utmost pick for favorite Joni album is >unquestionably FTR. I guess this just goes to show how personally she >can affect each and every one of us. I do agree that Hejira is also >exceptional. I find trying to decide between the two a bit like the old >apples and oranges cliche. Many would agree with you! Choosing a *single* favourite album is not easy. FTR, Hejira, Hissing, Blue, Court and Spark are consistently among the most popular choices for "top album". The vote on Les' JMDL site currently has Hissing just ahead of Hejira (25 votes to 24). FTR is close behind with 22. These three have been within a gnat's whisker of each other ever since the vote started. Not far behind we have Blue (16), C&S (15) and, gaining ground, TTT (14 votes). Howard ******************************************************* Howard.Wright@ed.ac.uk The way I perceived the dissonance was : These chords are really mean I like these chords ! Frank Zappa ******************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:47:22 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Lucinda (NJC) In a message dated 2/14/99 10:23:22 AM Central Standard Time, FMYFL@aol.com writes: << Also I know there's a lot of Lucinda Williams fans on the list and I heard that she's going to be the musical guest next week on SNL. >> Jimmy, thanks in advance for the heads up - I'll try to tolerate the lame comedy long enough to make it to Lucinda... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:51:40 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Audio philes NJC In a message dated 2/14/99 11:13:05 AM Central Standard Time, Tube writes: << With today's slick production and hi-tech recording methods, the aural quality is so good that the bland commercial repetetive transparancy of most chart music comes through with painful clarity.>> A great example of the above would be Journey - their records always "sounded" good, but they were awful! <> And also pick up on the HDCD versions - when I heard the HDCD of "Shadows & Light", I felt like I was hearing it for the first time, so much stuff jumped out at me (of course, prior to that I'd had an old cassette recording, so the differences were that much more dramatic). Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:03:42 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: HoSL paul tyrer wrote: > > Hi everyone > > Today I've seen a coupla posts about HoSL and its slating by the critics. > I've always understood the idea that it was JM's venture into jazz that > provoked the slating, but I also think it was disliked because it was > conceptualized around the position of women in 1970s America (Sorry if this > is really old hat to you oldbies, but I'm on a newbie roll here!) - their > effective containment by men and society and their simultaneous, dangerous, > ability to break free from the patriarchal ties that bind... This subject > matter wasn't something that the inevitably male critic of the 70s had any > interest in, unlike JM's more directly personal 'I lost my baby' stuff, > which is all about men! > > What does anyone else think?? I think you make a very good point. The feminist slant of the album probably did play some part in the lukewarm reception it got. And no matter what Joni wants to call it or whether she likes it or not, imo that is a fitting adjective to describe HOSL; feminist. I've always felt that many viewed HOSL as too radical a shift from the accessability of Court & Spark. I have a theory that the success of C&S was a fluke. The public's tastes in popular music just happened to coincide with what Joni was into at that time. To me C&S is a good example of popular culture approaching the level of art. So a lot of people who were thinking 'Hey, Joni is really cool!' were expecting another well-made, better-than average album of potential hits. What they got was something else. When I first heard HOSL I remember thinking it sounded kind of stark & detached compared to everything Joni had done before it. I'm not coming up with the right words to describe my reaction to it but I do remember that I was rather puzzled by it. I'm not sure I would have stuck with it (and with Joni) if the words hadn't intrigued me so much. The meaning of the lyrics wasn't immediately evident and they were veering away from the confessional mode toward social commentary. They required some interpretation, mental energy and critical examination of the world around me. The more I listened to the record the more it grew on me musically. Now 24 years after its release, I still find new things in it. And to me that's clear evidence of it's greatness. But in 1975 the average American music consumer (just like now) didn't particularly want to be that challenged by what they listened to. They wanted another Court & Spark. Little did they know that a snowball has a better chance of surviving hellfire than they do of ever getting 'another Court & Spark' out of Joni. Mark in Seattle HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY TO ALL IN JMDL-LAND!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:57:08 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Audio philes NJC Tube wrote: I think crisp production values in > the studio are important, particulary if there's a lot going on on the > track, but it's not essential, as a good track will carry an ambience to it > if the artists and engineers are really cooking. I don't disagree with you on this. I appreciate a well-recorded album although I may not be as discerning as some people are. What I was referring to was tinkering with the actual performance itself ie recording 300 or so takes to the point where (to me) it becomes almost dehumanized. I think an obsessive quest for 'perfection' can diminish the art of a piece of music or painting or what have you. I like music to have at least some sense of spontaneity to it. > Babylon Sister is very slick, but it's also a very clever song in every > point of it's execution, and I love it. I occasionally appreciate slick & clever. Steely Dan's brand of it just never appealed to me, I guess. It's purely a subjective matter of taste. But I will say that most of the music that appeals to me has something more than slick & clever to it. I think that's why I prefer Billie Holiday to other singers of her era that maybe had prettier voices. I don't think crisp, good production would have hurt Billie's records one bit. Her heart & soul would have come through regardless as Joni's does. It's too bad there wasn't better recording technology in the 30's, 40's & 50's. But I don't see Billie doing 300 takes to get a vocal 'just right'. > The problem today is too much formulaic 'pop music' in the charts. With > today's slick production and hi-tech recording methods, the aural quality is > so good that the bland commercial repetetive transparancy of most chart > music comes through with painful clarity. I certainly have to agree with you here. This is part of the reason I don't buy much new music. So much of it sounds the same to me. > If TTT sounds muddy to those of us with hi-fi's good enough to spot it, then > perhaps it's an indication of Joni heading out on a Spectoresque 'Back To > Mono' crusade'? I was at a friends a while back and he had just hooked up a brand new Dolby digital receiver. Ok, I'm not an audiophile, I don't really know if a Dolby digital is a piece or good equipment or a piece of crap. Anyway, this friend (who loves music & has always tried to have the best audio equipment he can afford) knowing I love Joni, puts on 'Love Puts on a New Face & cranks it up pretty loud. To me it sounded like Joni was in the room playing & singing just for us. Ok, so maybe I don't have finely tuned ears for good stereo reproduction. But to me it sounded just fine. > > No, it's not Taureans, it's Seattleans (ie Microsoft employees) I only know one ex-Microsoft employee intimately and she can be pretty stubborn. Maybe there's something to what you say. > > Back to Flusho! > Tube (showing his age so much that he talks about LPs and records, not CDs) > (of which he only owns two!) I heard a half-speed master of Joan Baez's 'Diamonds & Rust' once many years ago. I think it was the best sound quality I've ever heard from a record. I always wanted to hear the half-speed master of 'Court & Spark'. Maybe in another lifetime.... Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:36:01 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Audio philes NJC In a message dated 2/14/99 3:01:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, mark-n- travis@worldnet.att.net writes: << Her heart & soul would have come through regardless as Joni's does. It's too bad there wasn't better recording technology in the 30's, 40's & 50's. But I don't see Billie doing 300 takes to get a vocal 'just right'. >> No, it's more likely that the way Billie was junked up, she would have settled for one about five takes before she got to "just right." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:01:03 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Audio philes NJC IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/14/99 3:01:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, mark-n- > travis@worldnet.att.net writes: > > << Her heart & soul would have come through regardless as > Joni's does. It's too bad there wasn't better recording technology in > the 30's, 40's & 50's. But I don't see Billie doing 300 takes to get a > vocal 'just right'. >> > > No, it's more likely that the way Billie was junked up, she would have settled > for one about five takes before she got to "just right." > Paul I Billie wasn't always 'junked up'. By all accounts she had made dozens of recordings before she ever touched heroin. Booze & reefer, yes but no more than a lot of people in her time & place. Unless you know something about the subject in question I strongly suggest you don't make pat statements like that. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:14:27 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Audio philes NJC In a message dated 2/14/99 5:01:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, mark-n- travis@worldnet.att.net writes: << Billie wasn't always 'junked up'. By all accounts she had made dozens of recordings before she ever touched heroin. Booze & reefer, yes but no more than a lot of people in her time & place. Unless you know something about the subject in question I strongly suggest you don't make pat statements like that. Mark in Seattle >> Well, if you're going to split hairs, fine. I didn't necessarily mean only heroin by my use of "junked up." Whatever her drugs of choice may have been at any particular moment, that is not the type of influence that is conducive to recording studio dedication and "perfection." Besides, to me, it is her imperfections that make Billie more real. And hers was a style of music that did not require an attempt at "perfection." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:38:03 -0000 From: "paul tyrer" Subject: Re: HoSL - -----Original Message----- From: MDESTE1@aol.com To: paul@tyrer23.freeserve.co.uk Date: 14 February 1999 21:15 Subject: Re: HoSL >What on earth are you trying to say. HOSL isnt about anything close to what >you seem to have responded to at least in a theme sense. Well let me give some examples to support my argument. HoSL features, according to my take on it, some decidedly straightforward stories of the containment of women. Just think about Edith,'snowblind' to the Kingpin's crimes and at the same time, a woman caught - she 'dare not look away'. And there's also his ex-lovers who become passive in the extreme, so much so that he has (metaphorically) taken over their basic functions: 'women he has taken grow old too soon/ he tilts their tired faces gently to the spoon'. And then there's the male marking his boundaries in which he keeps his woman in HoSL itself: 'he built her a barbed-wire fence to keep out the unknown and on every metal fence just a little blood of his own'; not to mention the rather sinister: 'He bought her a diamond for her *throat* / he *put* her in a ranch house on the hill / she could see the valley bar-b-qs from her windowsill' - this is a fancy place, but it's still a prison (the diamond seems to me almost literally to be 'a choker' - the diamond is for her throat, not her neck). And then there's the whole of Harry's House bar the end (I won't quote). And in IFtKoMS there's a contrast between the dreary containment of older women with the freedom that makes younger women sexually-available-to-men ('under neon signs a girl was in bloom, and a woman was fading in a suburban room'). And, arguably, SoSC talks of how bolshy, difficult women get contained: ('friends have told her not so proud, neighbours trying to sleep and yelling "not so loud", lovers in anger, block of ice'). More personally, JM talks regretfully about the broader social containment of women like herself - via the demand to always try to look good - in Sweet Bird ('I lay down golden and woke up vanishing' ... / 'all these vain promises on beauty jars'). Balanced with all this, though, is the womanly freedom that JM herself celebrates. Self-assertion against men is the heart that powers Don't Interrupt the Sorrow, she celebrates her own youthful freedom in the IFtKoMS quote above; she also highlights Edith's own (however compromised) power (the Kingpin also 'dare not look away'). This freedom is most obviously there in the woman's final decision to leave in Harry's House: 'to tell him like she did today just what he could do with Harry's house and Harry's take-home pay'. PX NP - In a low cut blouse she brings the beer, Rousseau paints a jungle flower behind her ear /those cannibals of shuck and jive they'll eat a working girl like her alive. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:23:45 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: HoSL In a message dated 2/14/99 5:42:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, paul@tyrer23.freeserve.co.uk writes: << Balanced with all this, though, is the womanly freedom that JM herself celebrates. Self-assertion against men is the heart that powers Don't Interrupt the Sorrow, she celebrates her own youthful freedom in the IFtKoMS quote above; she also highlights Edith's own (however compromised) power (the Kingpin also 'dare not look away'). This freedom is most obviously there in the woman's final decision to leave in Harry's House: 'to tell him like she did today just what he could do with Harry's house and Harry's take-home pay'. >> I agree that HoSLo is less accessible than Court and Spark because of its theme regarding both the isolation and containment of women and their roles in '70s America. I think Paul T. gave us an excellent analysis in detail of the album, whose theme always has been defined by the lines from the title song: "He put up a barbed wire fence To keep out the unknown And on every metal thorn Just a little blood of his own She patrols that fence of his To a latin drum And the hissing of summer lawns ... He gave her his darkness to regret And good reason to quit him He gave her a roomful of Chippendale That nobody sits in Still she stays with a love of some kind It's the lady's choice The hissing of summer lawns" Paul Ivice NP: "People say we got it made, don't they know we're so afraid. I-i-i-solation. WE're afraid to be alone Everybody got to have a home. I-i-i-solation. Just a boy and a little girl tryin' to change the whole wide world. I-i-i-solation. The world is just a little town. Everybody trying to put us down. I-i-i-solation I don't expect you to understand after you've caused so much pain but then again you're not to blame you're just a human, a victim of the insane. We're afraid of everyone Afraid of the sun I-i-i-solation The sun wil never disappear but the world may not have many years I-i-i-solAAAAAAtion." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:33:55 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: beyond the US? Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:47:50 +0200 From: "Fr=?ISO-8859-1?B?6WTp?=ric Excoffier" Hi every body I'm Francois from Paris "in France, they kiss on main street". My english is not as fluent as I l'd like, to read all the messages of the list. Just one thing : All of you american fans are so lucky cause of the Joni tour. One of my dream is to see her on stage. I missed the New York concert. Does someone know if a European tour is planned ??? It would be so great. Francois ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:49:01 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Word from Leonard Cohen (NJC) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:31:36 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Klempner "I feel . . . that were in a very shabby moment . . . . I see everybody holding on in their individual way to an orange crate, to a piece of wood, and we're passing each other in this swollen river that has pretty well taken down all the landmarks, and pretty well over overturned everything we've got. And people insist, under the circumstances, on describing themselves as 'liberal' or 'conservative.' It seems to me completely mad." Leonard Cohen, 1998. Excerpted from an interview in the curent Utne Reader. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:50:13 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #77 From: "Tube" Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:45:55 +0100 >Kakki wrote: < Could it be that the beats were considered too obscure as a group and that it wasn't until Kennedy and other leaders championed (and therefore, sanctioned) new ideals that it became more mainstream? of course it was... (obscure, that is) and even though folk music reached it's apex of popularity in that time we were still in the minority socially and musicwise... as you know, the real crossover came from Dylan, first as his songs by P,P&M hit the top of the charts and then when he broke out the strat at newport... < You've mentioned the SDS a few times here. At the point I learned about them (around 1969) they seemed to have had a reputation for violence to achieve their ends. (I actually had to do a term paper in Government class in 1970 researching them!) My question (just out of curiousity) is whether they initially were as "radical" as they came to be known later? > actually, I learned about them around then too! I didn't know anything about Hayden's gang when I was *at* the Cellar... probably because we weren't documenting it... but living it; and also because they didn't become all that well known nationally until later. although I knew nothing of the SDS, I did hear rumblings that a prior incarnation of the Cellar had 'been closed down' under less than ideal circumstances with wisperings about drugs... but then you know how rumblings and wisperings go... frankly, at my young naive age all kinds of political intrigue could have been going on right under my nose and I would have been clueless... I was just there for >the music. Kakki, Pat and others, I'm currently subscribed to 'The Sixties List' which carries a lot of good discussion on sixties radicalism and has recently started a thread on musical influences and associations with the protest movements of the time. Perhaps most of already know of this list, but for those that don't, as a taster, I'll just paste in a posting from last week: - -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ------- "(1) From: Joe McDonald =20 Tony Edmonds wrote: > I haven't had a chance to go through the music lists yet. Are the = lyrics to > "Where have all the Flowers Gone" on any of them? If not, does anyone = know > where I might find them? > > Tony Edmonds > Ball State Univ. Sing Out ! Magazine. cheers, cjm -- "The eldest son wont leave home nor cook soup. The ozone layer = thins .003 milliliters more. The wise person bends like bamboo in the wind." = Me Ching. country joe Home Pg country joe's tribute to Florence Nightingale Berkeley Vietnam Veterans Memorial (2) From: epm2@lehigh.edu (TED MORGAN) Tony, Check the wonderful compilation of folk lyrics put together by = Peter Blood-Patterson, "A Song Shall Rise," published by Sing Out! I can = help with an address if you need one. A book that should be on all = families' bookshelves, if there's any music going on. Ted Morgan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 01:34:01 +0100 From: "Peter Holmstedt" Subject: Plug Of The Week #6 Hi there, Jackson Browne's brother Severin ( a great artist in his own right! ) just turned me on to the debut album by a friend of his : Wendy Conrad - Ghosts That Aren't Mine ( Go Girl Music ) "Ghosts That Aren't Mine" is a modernized tribute to traditional roots music with influental touches of Patty Loveless and Joni Mitchell. When asked about her songwriting Wendy admits : "My truest self is in my music. I live my songs". And with her rich, provocative voice, her listeners are led through the textured landscapes of her life, mind and heart. Relocating to L.A. from Nashville in 1994, Wendy has been captivating audiences wherever she performs, with her real gift for melody and making personal feelings seem universal. The debut album is co-produced with veteran Ed Tree. It marks the culmination of Wendy's abilities, his expertise and intuition, and a flow of the unexpected turn of events. If you feel like checking out this wonderful album, you can contact Go Girl Music at : PO Box 3387 El Segundo CA 90245 - 3387 Phone: 310 - 533 - 2350 Email: wendconrad@aol.com You won't be disappointed! Take care, Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:54:33 -0500 From: "Marsha" Subject: Re: beyond the US? >I'm Francois from Paris "in France, they kiss on main street". >My english is not as fluent as I l'd like, to read all the messages of the >list. > >Just one thing : >All of you american fans are so lucky cause of the Joni tour. >One of my dream is to see her on stage. I missed the New York concert. > >Does someone know if a European tour is planned ??? > It would be so great. Hi, Francois. No plans announced for Joni in France, but Gino Vannelli is coming your way 4/1-4/2 at the New Morning Theater... How I would love to see him... Ah, April in Paris... Calgon....take me away... Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:38:58 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Audio philes/Billie Holiday NJC IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/14/99 5:01:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, mark-n- > travis@worldnet.att.net writes: > >> > Well, if you're going to split hairs, fine. I didn't necessarily mean only > heroin by my use of "junked up." > Whatever her drugs of choice may have been at any particular moment, that is > not the type of influence that is conducive to recording studio dedication and > "perfection." > Besides, to me, it is her imperfections that make Billie more real. And hers > was a style of music that did not require an attempt at "perfection." I'm sure she wanted her records to sound as good as possible. There are alternate takes that exist for many of her recordings and they weren't slap-dash affairs. And you can't tell me that people like Becker & Fagan, the Beatles and others who did amazing things in recording studios didn't on occasion use some kind of drugs in the process. Maybe cocaine makes people more knit-picky than smack. I don't mean to jump all over you, Paul. This is a pet peeve of mine concerning certain artists. It's kind of like those people Joni talks about in Turbulent Indigo, 'talking about the madhouse, talking about the ear'. Mention Billie Holiday to a lot of people & they'll say, 'oh yeah, she was that junkie that Diana Ross played in that movie'. Never mind that she was one of the greatest jazz singers that ever lived. Never mind the fact that she left behind an amazing and rich legacy of recorded music that has left an indellible mark on American music. No, forget all that. She was that messed up, used & abused junkie. The movie 'Lady Sings the Blues' was mostly Hollywood fabrication. Billie's 'autobiography' of the same name was also full of fabrication & exaggeration. I believe the general consensus is that the book was created to be as sensational as possible to sell as many copies as possible. Whether that was Billie's idea, William Dufty's idea (her 'co-author) or the publisher's idea, I don't know. But everything else I've read about her pretty much dismisses it as mostly BS. Ok, enough about Billie. Sorry for the bandwidth but obviously I love Billie's music and I just couldn't let that one go by. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:51:37 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Day with Shana (NJC) Happy Valentine's Day everyone! I just returned from a great day in the sunshine listening to Shana Morrison and her band Caledonia at Muldoon's in Newport Beach with my friend Paul and the Dulsons. The concert was free, being underwritten by the venerable firm of Bailey's Irish Cream. (Mr. Dulson was one of the music trivia contest winners and won a very nice Bailey's driving cap ;-) It was squished in, standing room only and a very mixed audience of all ages. Mama Janet Planet was also in attendance. Shana and band were spectacular. They played a number of traditional Irish tunes, Van's "Into the Mystic" and "Beautiful Vision", along with several original songs from their CD. Afterward we got to meet her and get CDs signed. Shana was profiled in yesterday's L.A. Times Orange County edition by Mike Boehm who describes the album as "flitting between melancholy liquor-stoked lust, romantic longing and airy moments of fun - showing a command of blues, country and soul on songs that summon up the likes of the Wallflowers, Natalie Merchant, Sheryl Crow and Bonnie Raitt." Boehm tried to interview Van for the article but notes that his request for a few moments on the telephone with him were predictably futile. Shana says that Van has almost no tolerance for music he doesn't like, and even furrows his brow and storms out of the room on listening to some of her own tunes. He apparently had a fit when she expressed wanting to go into either business or law upon graduating from college and swept her up touring with him for a few years instead. She does, however, occasionally work a day gig as a paralegal now, (which greatly amused me!). Her album is due for national and international distribution next month or may be ordered through her website at http://www.shanamorrison.com It's a worthy addition to the record shelf. Kakki NP: Shana - Can't Hold On ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 00:42:35 -0800 (PST) From: "bern.gallagher" Subject: Happy Lupercalia - NJC OK, y'all. Since it's after midnight, it's officially LUPERCALIA, the old Roman holiday. So all you priests of Lupercus, get out your goatskin thongs and all you fair and tender ladies, get in position and hope you get hit with one! B.- It's the ladies' choice: the hissing of... PS If you wish to learn more about this festival, http://miso.wwa.com/~jase/lupercalia/history.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:42:57 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: beyond the US? Hi Francois I don't know of any tour plans for anywhere at this point. The Cheiftains have announced they will be having occasional 'special guests' during their US tour, so who knows? Let's just keep our fingers crossed that Joni will go back on the road for a proper tour sometime. RR Bounced Message wrote: > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:47:50 +0200 > From: "Fr=?ISO-8859-1?B?6WTp?=ric Excoffier" > > Hi every body > > I'm Francois from Paris "in France, they kiss on main street". > My english is not as fluent as I l'd like, to read all the messages of the > list. > > Just one thing : > All of you american fans are so lucky cause of the Joni tour. > One of my dream is to see her on stage. I missed the New York concert. > > Does someone know if a European tour is planned ??? > It would be so great. > > Francois ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #78 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. 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