From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #77 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, February 14 1999 Volume 04 : Number 077 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Psychic Joni [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Rick & Penny Gibbons)] (NJC) questions from JMDLers ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Long: Audiophile's Corner: JM fails ["Deb Messling" ] Re: AG magazine, Joni's guitar [Mark Domyancich ] Joni as an artist. [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Re: Joni as an artist. ["Kakki" ] Subject: Re: DED and Mingus ["P. Henry" ] Re: Joni's guitar picking ["P. Henry" ] Re: Long: Audiophile's Corner: JM fails [Randy Remote ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:12:39 -0800 (PST) From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Rick & Penny Gibbons) Subject: Psychic Joni Lori asked if anyone else had a psychic Joni experience. (I don't know that I like the term psychic for this though) There are probably hundreds each of us could list but I'll relay my last and the most powerful to me. I stated recently that her use of "breathtaking ignorance" is a mainstay in my vocabulary. Really, it's the bulk of that part of Job's Sad Song that nailed my heart to the wall. Oh and look who comes to counsel my deep distress, These pompous physicians, Oh what carelessness! Oh all this ranting all this wind Filling our ears with trash Breathtaking ignorance adding insult to injury! They come blaming and shaming Evil doer And shattering me That song was really an encouragement to "suck it up" and get rid of bitterness from betrayal, and such deep hurt inflicted by a respected Christian "friend", that I hadn't been able to pick up my Bible in 18 years. (Don't worry I'm not going to turn this into a religious thread.) It's just that at that time, when TI came out, I truly think Joni's lyrics were what I respected and pondered more than anything else. More than friends, more than husband or family, certainly more than who knows where they're coming from Christians. As long as I kept things at a superficial level all was fine, but our Joan doesn't seem to let us do that, now does she? My guess is I felt a little like the women from the Magdaline Laundaries, that are mortified by being blindsided by ones who "say" they represent charity or holiness or kindness. More flabbergasted than even bitter. ( I won't go into the rest because that would be a religious thread) :- ) So I don't know if that's a psychic Joni story or not, all I know is Joni was really the only way to get to my soul. And it worked very well indeed. Later, Penny ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:55:00 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: (NJC) questions from JMDLers I agree. People don't *know* their question has been done to death, after all!! But I usually reply privately so the rest of the list doesn't have to plow through it once more. (And if they get a dozen private replies, well that's *really* welcoming). > It takes a few seconds for someone to respond to a Joni question by > a new list member. Besides, it's a nice, welcoming gesture, as well. Deb Messling ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:59:10 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Long: Audiophile's Corner: JM fails I'm confused. Are these your words, Jim, or are you quoting some article? > Hello cousins, > Today in Audiophile's Corner: > "Why Joni Failed As A Leader of The World Music Movement." Deb Messling ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:49:20 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: JC stuff from an interview w/ Joe Smith I pulled this out from another list, (I hope I'm not jumping the gun here C). It was mostly about Van Morrison, but had a couple of Joni nuggets from a marketing/record executive point of view. It's a 1973 interview with Joe Smith, then vp of Warner Brothers, the record company which had Van and Joni Mitchell in their stable at the time. Smith talks about the relationship these artists had with their record companies. (He was talking about marketing artists at this point) Smith: Would you want to always put up a picture of the artist and the name of the record and say "Smash hit on RCA" every week? Then you don¢t try anything. Then you don¢t come up with the Van Dyke Parks ad that you still remember from three years ago. Or an ad about Joni Mitchell as ninety-percent virgin, which she objected to strenuously. Or Van Morrison with a black mask across his eyes, saying, "This man scored last night." Van was not thrilled about that. Oh, there are cases where it doesn¢t come off. And cases where it comes off and the artist doesn¢t like it. But in the end, every manager, attorney or artist sits down just the way we¢re sitting down and they talk about our advertising. Tell me another company where people talk about their advertising. Not how much, but the quality of it. And on the general bottom line, our advertising is far more effective than ineffective, and we get a lot more hits out of it than we do misses. And if Joni Mitchell is unhappy with the ninety-percent virgin line, it¢s for personal reasons, not that the ad was ineffective. It was a damn good ad; she was just maybe not happy with the connotation that she was a virgin. ===== I seem to remember that some old vinyl had the inner sleeves being some sort of advertising for samples. LPs with a collection of tunes by the artists on the label. And that "90 % virgin" tag is pulling at my memory. His views on the "us vs them" mentality of record companies was not unexpected reflecting that age old struggle between art and commerce. MG - getting a late start on her morning routine.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:23:37 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Long: Audiophile's Corner: JM fails In a message dated 2/12/99 7:20:19 PM Central Standard Time, jlamadoo@one.net writes: << I just wish she had recorded it better so we wouldn't have to listen through the sludge. The new album is so harsh that even a cassette copy of the album [:D] sounds glassy. It's not the tape, it's the recording. So please Joni, hire an engineer next time! And a fussy one! >> And while she's at it, a producer as well...It's funny, as much as she talks about Steely Dan's "Aja" & "Gaucho" and recognizes the clarity (even the inferior tunes on Gaucho sound great with the production and engineering skills at work), you'd think she'd insist on that with her own work as well. Jungle Line is very muddy, and an "outsider" would help to very the 'sameness' that plagues TTT's sound. I remember reading an article regarding the production of "Babylon Sisters" (from Gaucho) where they said the quest for perfection in the recorded sound almost became prohibitive...the last 10 seconds, where the background vocals sing 'you've got to shake it baby, you've got to shake i-i-i-i-t...took over 300 takes to get the vocal blend just right!! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:43:57 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni As Psychic Friend In a message dated 2/12/99 9:02:17 PM Central Standard Time, LRFye@aol.com writes: << I've tagged this NJC because it's really rather self-indulgent and doesn't include anything that I would call actual JC ... >> Lori, This is certainly *not* NJC...how Joni has touched us on our life journey is what this gathering of souls is all about! I hope *nobody* out there has some kind of filter that would prevent them from reading this heartfelt piece. Thanks for sharing - Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:55:38 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) questions from JMDLers In a message dated 2/13/99 5:51:50 AM Central Standard Time, messling@enter.net writes: << But I usually reply privately so the rest of the list doesn't have to plow through it once more. >> While this approach has some merit, Deb, I always copy the list so everyone knows the question has been answered...besides, for every one person who asks, there's probably 10 more lurkers who want to know but are afraid to ask... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:13:16 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) Joni As Psychic Friend In a message dated 2/12/99 9:02:17 PM Central Standard Time, LRFye@aol.com writes: << Later, listening to Song for Sharon, these words jumped out at me: "Sharon, I left my man At a North Dakota junction" Yep, I sure did. And ever since, I've felt like Joni had predicted my future! >> Funny how "Hejira" probably has the majority of these "psychic" moments - possibly because travel brings out the introspective persona in us...my own most accurate psychic moment was also Hejira-oriented: It was fourth of July weekend, my friend Chris O'Neill and I were in Raleigh, bored and broke on a friday night, and decided to roadtrip to Wrightsville Beach (outside of Wilmington, NC). Chris & his brother Steve both worked at the Winn-Dixie (you can see where this one is going :~D). We grabbed a few things, change of clothes, toothbrush, tunes, and drove to the Winn-Dixie where Chris & I took in a big cooler and asked his boss if he could load it up with ice 'cause we were going on a fishing trip...the grocery boss, being a good ol' boy, wanted to encourage us to become good ol' southern boys as well, so he said sure. We loaded the bottom of the cooler with beers from the back room and stuff from the deli, covered the whole thing with ice, and walked out right under his watchful gaze! Anyway, we roadtripped to Wilmington, listening to Earth wind & Fire, The Commodores, & Joni (Chris was a big C&S fan...he used to take great joy in singing "Same Situation", especially the part where Joni sings "love is gone"). We connected with some old friends he went to school with at UNC- Wilmington, and had an unforgettable weekend! Now whenever I hear "I met a friend of spirit, he drank and womanized" & "Cast upon a beachtown, Winn-Dixie coldcuts & highway hand me downs" I conjure up this memory... Ironically, Chris, who basically "taught" me how to party and be a free spirit, became a mormon and now lives in Utah with his wife & 4 kids... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:17:17 EST From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: Long: Audiophile's Corner: JM fails Interesting, because maybe Joni's approach is caught up the current vogue of morphing sounds like Bjork does. I have a pretty decent stereo system, high octane receiver and Bose 901 speakers, and have had to sit and listen for all the layering Joni talked about during her press interviews. So, I hold out judgement, to give Joni the benefit of the doubt. Right now, I'm leaning toward being proven wrong, because as with The Magdelane Laundries, there's something just like that about them that misses for me. On a tangent, one recording that I find masterfully done and a stand out as far as recording the guitar, is the title track of Ladies of the Canyon. Why not on all the rest is beyond me. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:36:37 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: (NJC) Pat , Coffeehouses, Beatniks and stuff Kakki wrote: < Could it be that the beats were considered too obscure as a group and that it wasn't until Kennedy and other leaders championed (and therefore, sanctioned) new ideals that it became more mainstream? > of course it was... (obscure, that is) and even though folk music reached it's apex of popularity in that time we were still in the minority socially and musicwise... as you know, the real crossover came from Dylan, first as his songs by P,P&M hit the top of the charts and then when he broke out the strat at newport... < You've mentioned the SDS a few times here. At the point I learned about them (around 1969) they seemed to have had a reputation for violence to achieve their ends. (I actually had to do a term paper in Government class in 1970 researching them!) My question (just out of curiousity) is whether they initially were as "radical" as they came to be known later? > actually, I learned about them around then too! I didn't know anything about Hayden's gang when I was *at* the Cellar... probably because we weren't documenting it... but living it; and also because they didn't become all that well known nationally until later. although I knew nothing of the SDS, I did hear rumblings that a prior incarnation of the Cellar had 'been closed down' under less than ideal circumstances with wisperings about drugs... but then you know how rumblings and wisperings go... frankly, at my young naive age all kinds of political intrigue could have been going on right under my nose and I would have been clueless... I was just there for the music. so, in truth, I mention it at all only because that's about the only thing that put us on the map, so to speak... as to your question, of course I don't know but the same thing has occurred to me which is why I included a portion of their manifesto for examination... since you did the research you could probably teach me quite a lot about it... my impression is the same as yours... that they didn't become militant until latter times. < I also knew a few people in the old days who fell into a recording contract in such an easy way. They were all very young at the time like you and all ended up getting distracted by other things in their lives and not following through on it. Part of that is youth and part of that is because we all thought life went on forever back then! Pat, did you write your own songs? > wise words, amiga. *S* actually it *was* fairly easy to offer yourself up to the record company feeding frenzy that was going on in the mid to late '60's... the thing is I never even tried at all! no, as I've mentioned before I was a 'mockingbird' as a performer... never wrote song one! I had a bitchin' stage presence, a flair for the dramatic and a strong, clear voice, albeit, untrained, (you shoulda heard Joni and I sing together!) and I could draw almost as large a crowd on the weekends I played as headliner as any of the out of town performers... including Joni; but the way I did it, partly, was that I stole their material verbatim... so when I played you could hear Ron Coden's "If I Had Wings", Bill Rutledge's "House Of The Rising Sun", Phil Esser's "St James Infirmary", Loring Jane's "Codeine" as well as Joni Mitchell's "Urge For Going", "Circle Game", "Just Like Me"... and it would be 'just like them'! in truth, this is what I think kind of (subconsciously) took the wind out of my sails as far as being a performer... even though I loved the music and performing, after spending all that time around Joni, IMO at least one of the greatest songwriters who ever lived, my meager talents paled in comparison! ...sorta like standing next to a giant! pat http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:34:06 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Long: Audiophile's Corner: JM fails RMuRocks@aol.com wrote: > Jungle Line is very muddy, and an "outsider" would help to very the 'sameness' > that plagues TTT's sound. The HOSL sleeve credits Henry Lewy and his assistant Ellis Sorkin saying they 'piloted these tapes to their destination' and that 'Henry & I mixed them; and Bernie Grundman mastered them at A&M Studios in Hollywood'. I don't think you could say that Henry Lewy didn't know what he was doing. Also we're talking about recording techniques circa 1975. Besides that, 'The Jungle Line' consists mostly of rumbly, low drums with a very low sustained (through most of the track) synthesizer. Doesn't the very nature of those sounds make them 'muddy' or certainly less clear & pristine than say the plucking of a single string of an acoustic guitar or a clear soprano voice? I don't think it's necessarily important that we hear every single beat of every single drum. I think the effect was intended and it works very well imo. I'm no audiophile by any means but I really don't understand what the quibble is with the sound quality of TTT. To me it sounds just fine. Very warm & clear. There's a lot going on in Harlem in Havana and the introduction is meant to suggest the cacophony of a carnival midway. I don't think Joni intended us to hear every distinct sound or that it's important that we do. And to me saying that every track 'sounds the same' or that 'the guitar sounds the same' is like saying that all the tracks on a Van Cliburn record sound the same because he plays the piano on every single one. To me, Taming the Tiger has a sound that is every bit as consistent and integral as the much-praised 'Hejira'. You pretty much hear the same instruments played on most of 'Hejira' and the tone & tempo of the music doesn't vary *radically* (yes I know that it does vary) from track to track. Does all of 'Hejira' sound the same? I *really* don't understand why Joni should get a producer. Her musical vision is all-encompassing for each work. She knows what sounds & instruments she wants and after recording music for 30 + years she surely knows how to get what she wants by now. Maybe not everybody likes the result. But it's not our 'vision' now is it? It's Joni's. I would rather she remain true to that vision than try to mold it to what she thinks I or anybody else wants it to be or thinks it should be. > > I remember reading an article regarding the production of "Babylon Sisters" > (from Gaucho) where they said the quest for perfection in the recorded sound > almost became prohibitive...the last 10 seconds, where the background vocals > sing 'you've got to shake it baby, you've got to shake i-i-i-i-t...took over > 300 takes to get the vocal blend just right!! Part of what bugged me about 'Gaucho' was that it sounded so slick & manufactured. I guess that's part of why I don't care for 'the Dan'. I know Joni's a perfectionist too but her spirit & feeling speak to me clearly on every record. I don't detect much of anything underneath all that gloss on Steely Dan's records. But then I haven't listened to them like I've listened to Joni for 25 years so I could be wrong. Judging from the number of people who's opinions I respect on this list, I probably am. Oh well. We Taureans are a stubborn lot! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:51:46 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: AG magazine, Joni's guitar Hi everyone! Doing a little searching today, I found a website that has a guitar built for Joni, by Klein guitars. The one pictured at the link below is the guitar she used in the video for 'Come In From The Cold' and I think 'Cherokee Louise.' I think this same company may have made the guitar she used on Hejira and her WTRF tour. http://www.kleinguitars.com/owners.html Also, as Marian mentioned, there are a few Joni references in the March issue of Acoustic Guitar. Her California Kitchen tuning is talked about for about a paragraph and a link to the JM.com page is included. It is a really interesting article that I think every guitarist on this list should read. Quite enlightening. Best, ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | |_________________________________| "Evil communications corrupt good manners." - I Corinthians 15:33 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:17:42 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: AG magazine, Joni's guitar I should add this guitar costs $11,150. Anyone win the lottery recently? :-) Best, Mark NP-How Do You Stop At 12:51 PM -0600 2/13/99, I wrote: > Doing a little searching today, I found a website that has a guitar > built for Joni, by Klein guitars. The one pictured at the link > below is the guitar she used in the video for 'Come In From The > Cold' and I think 'Cherokee Louise.' I think this same company may > have made the guitar she used on Hejira and her WTRF tour. ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | |_________________________________| "Evil communications corrupt good manners." - I Corinthians 15:33 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:37:25 EST From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Joni as an artist. After reading the post on Joni's paintings I finally had to jump in on this one because I found them a bit to harsh and critical. For any one who has studied art one of the first lessons you learn to be a truly good artist one must be able to capture oneself honestly in a self portait. If you track back to her early days on the clouds cover it has captured everything as we see her. On Ladies of the caynon with one line of a magic marker you know immiately it is her. On Mingus with her arm flung around him you know right away who it is with only a few strokes of a brush, also if you look close enough the flute player is Joni herself, check out the cheek bone struture. As for the turbulent Indigo cover her work is not nealy as elementry as Van Gough, there is much more detail in the whole painting.As with the cover painting of Wild things run fast, although it lends to a Van Gough style it is truly a style of combineing realism with impressanisom, true only to her self as we all must be.Also a great recipe: The silky veils of ardor, stuff a taco shell(hard or soft) with alaskian king crab leg and lobster, some melted cheese(possibly jalepano) and a spot of sour cream! Take care, Mingus ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:02:24 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni as an artist. Mingus, I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding Joni's self-portraits. I think sometimes we are overly critical of her art because we believe that she is the alpha and omega of songwriting and hold her painting to an impossibly high standard that could probably not be met by anyone. I have seen about 50 of her paintings in person and have the STARART book, but I want to see more of her works (maybe we will get this chance when her book of paintings comes out) before I put a final judgment on her. >Also a great recipe: The silky veils of ardor, stuff a taco >shell(hard or soft) with alaskian king crab leg and lobster, some melted >cheese(possibly jalepano) and a spot of sour cream! Umm, umm, when shall we be over? ;-D I hope you have sent this one to Marian for the cookbook! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:16:37 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Subject: Re: DED and Mingus < a scathing review of "Ethiopia" by a critic who resented it being written by someone who rarely leaves the comfort of a Bel-Air mansion, a sort of "White men can't sing the blues" beef > and bob wrote: < This is certainly a stupid point of view for a critic to take...like Joni has to do time in the Magdalene Laundries to write about it? Like she has to starve to write about the injustices of Ethiopia? Most artists I care about who make movies, write songs, paint, whatever, are quick to see injustice and just as quick to react...to imply we can't be comfortable and have compassion for the uncomfortable is ludicrous... > bob, I have to second that... and add that, with today's hi-tech media news coverage and investigation, TLC and discovery channel plus the *huge* addition of the internet, fingertip access in the comfort of one's home can be had to knowledge that could be pretty well hushed in times past... like that of etheopia. ...and gee, I wonder if the ethiopians who would benefit from the heightened awareness a song, written by such a skilled and popular artist, would agree with that critic... mmmmmm, I think not. pat NP: "Just Like A Woman" - Dylan http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:16:34 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Joni's guitar picking terry wrote: < Could the change, in part, be related to the use of the VG? With an acoustic, every string plucked rings like a bell, but I think there's a muffling effect when she plugs in. Maybe she's had to change her picking style accordingly. > I've never seen a VG8 but played a synth guitar a few years ago that had the basic instrument aping capabilities of many keyboards these days (it was so cool to be able to bend the flute! *L*) and certainly there is a difference in attack when playing... another thought your post induced in me is the influence of the many musicians she's played with and respected over the years like jt, david crosby, pat metheny, jaco, robin ford, etc... (I've mentioned before how I've jammed with her and that she taught me... but she was also always very tuned to what I (as in 'the other musician') was doing and would pick up on it...) also there're the obvious chameleon-like, cacoon-to-butterfly changes that Joni's music has gone through... pat NP: "The Other Side Of This Life" - Fred Neil http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:32:13 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Long: Audiophile's Corner: JM fails Why didn't the critics hail "Hissing" as a triumph for world music? Probably because it's more of a jazz album. As for the distorted drum loop in "The Jungle Line", I'm 100% sure it was intended to sound like that. The grungy sound fits well with lyrics like "Drolling for a taste of something smuggled in Pretty women funnelled through valves and smoke..." and "Poppy poison-poppy tourniquet It slithers away on brass like mouthpiece spit" I think the picture she was painting was of darkness and sleeze, and the Moog was part of that sonic landscape, along with the distorted drums. I remember when Rolling Stone reviewed the album they described the Farfisa organ in "Shadows and Light" as sounding like an electronic fart. Critics can kiss her ass, not that they will ever get the chance! I don't detect any failure in this album at all, it's amazing like so many others. At least according to this critic. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:10:06 -0500 From: "Marsha" Subject: Joni depicted on SNL I just saw Joni get depicted on Saturday Night Live in the cartoon skit "TV Funhouse" a bizarre twist on real audio snips from entertainment sources. A blond lass was reading poetry, morphed into Jewel, was eaten by a TIGER and became Joni singing the looped "Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone...". It was cute... Jewel morphing into Joni and the animal props began dancing happily. The message was the latest incarnations of Joni suck. You guys on the West Coast ought to try to catch it 30 minutes into the show tonight. Marsha ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #77 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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