From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #69 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, February 9 1999 Volume 04 : Number 069 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: More on Joni painting [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Irony [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: noooooooJC! ps... ["P. Henry" ] Irish as uneducated (NJC) ["Winfried Hühn" ] on the Magdelene Laundries thread - NJC - [CarltonCT@aol.com] JMDL Cookbook news [M.Russell@iaea.org] Dissonance and consonance (95% NJC) [Howard Wright ] Re: More on Joni painting ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: Dissonance and consonance (95% NJC) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Joni's music ["M & C Urbanski" ] would it be JC? ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: Joni's friendships old loves (XJC) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Joni & Don [Steve Dulson ] Re: driving [RickieLee1@aol.com] Can the Korn, please! (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Travel Tips (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] cactus tree... ["P. Henry" ] Re: Irish as uneducated (NJC) [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: cactus tree... [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] RE: Irish as uneducated (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ [MHart16164@aol.com] Re: Can the Korn, please! (NJC) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: Song To A Seagull [Randy Remote ] (NJC) Re: The Redundance of "IMO" (was: Irish as uneducated) ["Winfried H] Re: Joni'n'James'n'David [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Visiting the Magdalene Laundries? (NJC) [philipf@tinet.ie] Pound & WCW (NJC) [Thomas Ross ] Cooking up our best recipes ["Marsha" ] Re: Pound & WCW (NJC) [jan ] Re: Cooking up our best recipes [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Colin's NJC (NJC) [Gertus@aol.com] Re: More on Joni painting [dsk ] Re: Cooking up our best recipes [catman ] Dissonance/Tunes [dsk ] Re: Cooking up our best recipes/NJC [MHart16164@aol.com] Re: Cooking up our best recipes/NJC [MHart16164@aol.com] Re: Subject: newbies and bouncing ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: More on Joni painting ["Eric Taylor" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:05:17 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: More on Joni painting On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:08:09 -0400 Debra Shea wrote: * Terry wrote: * > ... Joni has the technique down flat. Now if she * > could only find her own style. I know we've gone * > over this before and I've gotten some flack, but I * > maintain that her work is just not solid. * I agree with you, Terry, and unless I'm reading constantly * about Joni saying she's a painter first or JMDLers saying * she's the greatest artist ever, I don't give it much attention. * I think of Joni as a commercial artist making nice pictures * that help sell her music. They're pleasing, but don't seem to * come out of a deep need to express herself. She just seems * to like doing it, and there is a sensuality to painting that's very * enjoyable. Well, as consumers of her music, we really have only seen a small portion of her portfolio, and I think we should not conclude that these works are representative of her abilities and originality as an artist. I would describe what most of us have seen as perhaps the most accessible of her works - what the average person might enjoy - milk and cookies as opposed to Ethiopian Wot. I went to see a show of Joni's artwork in London in 1990 (or 1991?), and I could hardly relate to any of the pieces. They were interesting I guess, but I wouldn't categorize them as particularly pleasing. Most of them were very abstract and some of them were quite strange! I really know nothing about art, but after seeing this show, I have to disagree strongly with anyone who says that Joni doesn't have her own distinctive style. * Her music, on the other hand, comes from her * complex, unique inner being. A quote from Ranier Maria Rilke * is tickling my brain, can't get it exactly, but it's something to the * effect that "good art is born of necessity". Joni needs to do her * music; she wants to paint. She has said otherwise, though. She calls music her straight job and painting her calling (or something like that). I think, for the most part, the music comes easily to her and so it is not as interesting. That's how it seems from things she has said about herself. * P.S. I'm not looking for a fight about this; just sharing some thoughts. Me either! Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:30:00 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Irony On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:38:07 -0500 Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com * Colin writes: * > One evening I commented to John that although * > the lyric to many Joni songs are sad and miserable * > (in content not quality!), the music isn't sad or * > miserable. He is said it was because she understood * > irony, in his opinion. So what do you lot think? (The * > only song I can think of which is both sad in word and * > in music is Job's Sad Song) * Colin, "Songs to Aging Children Come", "Man From Mars", * "Not to Blame", all are JM songs which I think have sad lyrics * and sound "sad" as well. Last Chance Lost is also very sad. I wouldn't use the words "sad and miserable" to describe Joni's lyrics, though. I prefer the words: Colorful, perceptive, concisely descriptive, compassionate, thoughtful, sometimes melancholy, rarely dark, sometimes lonely and longing, and sometimes quite funny. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:59:25 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: noooooooJC! ps... ps - was browsing this thread looking for something and, right near the start of it (JMDL-digest #45) this was said by a long time lister who strongly opposes my opinion: "...it is so inevitible... ...Yet it happens every time" so my question is why didn't anyone remark that they were being 'condescending' when they said this and yet I am when I say: "it happened before and it will happen again..."? just a thought... pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 10:56:46 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Irish as uneducated (NJC) Kakki wrote: > Marcel wrote: > > >All these arguments and points fail to take into account a very > >obvious fact. Without spending a long time on a more detailed > >answer. Ireland adnother places in the British Isles end up with > >very large uneducated families. VERY uneducated. In some > >cases kids from these families have very low IQ's and almost > >no education. > > Marcel, I am astounded. Do you truly mean this or are you just trying to > get my "Irish" up?! I think even without detailed knowledge on living and social conditions in Ireland, one can see that this statement was is wrong, because it's much too general and prejudiced. Ireland, like southern Germany, Italy, Spain, France, is catholic and it certainly is still suffering to some extent from its difficult past, preciseley the way you have pointed out, Kakki: > To > staunch this flow, the Irish government implemented several very attractive > incentives to bring large international corporations into the country. > Several large American and Japanese companies jumped at these incentives, > which included, I recall, tax-free status and other highly attractive > inducements. And this has worked very, very well. As a European, one can only be enthusiastic and proud of what has been happening there. Ireland has annual growth rates between 5 and 10 % and is called the "green tiger" here. It's a highly competitive country now. Dublin is Europe's youngest capital with an incredibly high percentage of its inhabitants being younger than 25 years (I believe it's around 50 % or so) . It's in, it's hip, it's the place to be at. One should also point out that the Irish government, with good support from the European Union ( whose budget is paid in half by Germany :-) has spent much money on education and building up think-tanks in order to support sustained growth. This has also worked very well. Today, no one has to leave Ireland because of lack of opportunities. In fact, people are coming to Ireland from other parts of Europe, even from Germany. The friends I will be visiting are Italian, and they have left Italy because they could not find a job at home. They love it, even though they don't get paid that well and social security is comparatively low. Of course there still are rural places, where farms do not have running water, and Ireland still has some catching up to do. But the progress made so far is astonishing, and this only proves that there was a base for it, even when things were grim. Culturally, Ireland has always been Mainland Europe anyway, think of all the poets and writers coming from there. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:41:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: STAS & Clouds - musical complexity etc FredNow@aol.com wrote: >I feel that STAS is really not that musically simple, and in many >ways is much more musically rich and complex than later albums; not >necessarily in instrumentation and texture, which obviously gets denser >and more complex in later work, but in the actual notes and chords >themselves, the raw elements of the music. I pretty much agree. I find STAS a much more musically mature than Clouds in many ways. I remember when I first heard STAS, drifting down from an upstairs room in a friend's house. I was already familiar with Blue, Night Ride Home, Hejira and Hissing, so had a reasonable idea of Joni's musical spectrum. When I heard STAS I immediately thought it must have been recorded *after* Blue - the guitar work and singing were very rich, also quite dark. It sounded to me like a musically mature album, so i was pretty surprised to find out it was her first! If you compare it side by side with Clouds it's pretty amazing. I have to say, apart from The gallery and Song about the Midway, I really don't like Clouds much. STAS has so much more to offer, for me anyway. The ideas are much richer, the chords are more unusual and intriguing. And the guitar work is something else - totally different to her later style, but the early recordings and STAS in particular show off her detailed picking patterns so well. She really had guitar parts that had to be played almost note for note to make them work - very detailed, almost like some of Nick Drake's stuff. Howard ******************************************************* Howard.Wright@ed.ac.uk Just when you're thinking you've finally got it made Bad news comes knocking at your garden gate Joni Mitchell ******************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:51:48 EST From: CarltonCT@aol.com Subject: on the Magdelene Laundries thread - NJC - Hey everybody - Concerning IQ and large or small families, I had read several studies in college that support the premise that children from smaller families generally do better in school and score higher on intelligence tests. Though all of us could cite numerous anecdotal exceptions, it makes sense. Parents have more time to concentrate on and educate fewer children and can allocate more resources. Children who often have the highest IQs are generally higher or the highest in the birth order, and those with exceptional IQs often have no siblings, or siblings up to five years apart in birth sequence. This correlates with well known statistics about class room sizes, and one of the advantages of private schools is the very low ratio of students to teachers. It's not a matter of ethnicity. Children in large families are often impoverished and deprived of the crucial, early stimuli which results in greater cross development of neural centers, one of the neurological underpinnings of intelligence. Younger children in large families tend to model themselves on their undeveloped siblings instead of their parents, and it is often the youngest children in large families with the least developed language skills -- a matter of dilution. So say the studies I read, and yes, millions of exceptions abound. Anne may be right that other kinds of coping and adaptive skills are developed by the siblings in large families. Ireland has produced many great geniuses and people of accomplishment, but as an accomplished Irish actor once told me, they have usually have to leave Ireland in order to achieve. From what I've read recently, this is no longer the case and Ireland is prospering and a growing center of international trade and commerce. It was an oppressed and conquered nation for centuries, and that takes time to overcome. My personal and controversial opinion is that the next step in Irish liberation is to join with other modern Catholic nations like France and Italy in the taming of an institution with little relevance in the 20th century. The Pope tried to visit France a couple of years ago and their was an outcry by the vastly secular French citizenry because public funds were going to be used to pay for his visit. The French government bowed to the pressure, and the Pope had to pay for his own trip. I think the French showed very good sense. I, who am probably not Irish, used to work in an Irish bar. The owner used to tell me that the Irish would have conquered the world by this time, but that God gave them alcohol to keep them in their place. He never explained to me why he thought God would want to keep them oppressed. Some superstitions are charming, but not ones like that, or the kind that keep institutions like the Magdalene Laundries going until far too late in this century, or force Irish women to go to the UK if they want an abortion. I agree with Randy -- we can walk in and out of our belief systems, though it may be difficult to do and the alternatives don't look better. But the actual imprisonment of women over their sexual behavior -- it just saddens me, the sickening ignorance of it all. These United States may be an imperfect nation, but I would fight to the death any scenario which meant the end of the separation of church and state. It's not so extreme to demand an end to the printing of "In God We Trust" on our money, and to ask that "under God" be dropped from the Pledge of Allegiance. I don't trust any God, and certainly not the one invoked by religious organizations like the Christian Coalition, the Religious Right, or the nunneries that ran the Magdalene Laundries and the Church that allowed them to do so. We're just coming out of the darkness in this century. Some religionists are all for keeping us back there, or at the very least, still living near the shadow for fear of the real light which shows to full effect the ugly as well as the beautiful, and illuminates all too harshly the fact that we and we alone are in charge of our own lives. Clark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:02:25 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: JMDL Cookbook news Don Rowe has designed a beautiful cover page for the cookbook which incorporates a lovely painting of Joni by Marilyn Urbanski. The title page now reads: "Sitting On My Groceries" A Collection of Favorite Recipes From The Joni Mitchell Discussion List In Honor of Our Favorite Songstress I have only received one new recipe so far. If you haven't contributed something yet, now is your chance! Don't wait until the last minute! Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:12:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: Dissonance and consonance (95% NJC) catman wrote: >scot wrote:'it's the creative use of dissonance in many of her songs' > >Could someone explain what this means please? I'll have a go ...! In a few words, dissonance means a combination of two or more notes that has a "rough", "clashing", "edgy" type of sound. If you have a piano/keyboard, try pressing your fist down to hit a bunch of notes. Instant dissonance! (Think: chilli powder, sandpaper ...) The opposite is musical consonance, which means having several notes that produce a "smooth", "pleasing" type of sound (Think: honey, toast with butter ...). Simple major and minor chords are the obvious examples of consonance. Usually, dissonant notes/chords are used to produce a feeling of tension. A change to a more consonant chord then gives a feeling of resolution and relaxation. This is a massive oversimplification of course, but shows how consonant and dissonant chords can be used to build up and release tension in music. Music that uses mostly consonant intervals and chords sounds very easy going, relaxing, with no hint of tension. For example, children's songs, and many folk tunes tend to use "simple chords" where all the notes are consonant. Contrast this with, say, jazz music which uses more complex chords, with dissonant notes (G13 flat 9 anyone ? ;-) ) The real magic is when you get just the right balance of dissonance and consonance. Too much consonance, and you risk ending up with bland music. Too much dissonance, and you risk it sounding so sharp and spicy that it's almost unlistenable. But, if you can blend them together, you can create musical magic. For me, composers like Debussy, Joni, Le Mystere Des Voix Bulgares, Nick Drake and Zappa are the masters of this kind of thing. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:32:04 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: More on Joni painting > I went to see a show of Joni's artwork in London in 1990 (or 1991?), and I > could hardly relate to any of the pieces. They were interesting I guess, > but I wouldn't categorize them as particularly pleasing. Most of them were > very abstract and some of them were quite strange! I really know nothing > about art, but after seeing this show, I have to disagree strongly with > anyone who says that Joni doesn't have her own distinctive style. > Marian > Vienna Really! Oh man that's the stuff I want to see! I did see a photo way back when in People I think; of Joni and Jack Nicholson at one of her art shows. They were standing next to a huge abstract she had painted. However, I thought she only played with it and gave it up because she didn't care for abstraction. So much we don't know!!!! I can't wait until the coffee table book comes out of her Art! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:42:43 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Dissonance and consonance (95% NJC) (snip) > Usually, dissonant notes/chords are used to produce a feeling of tension. > This is a massive oversimplification of course, but shows how > consonant and dissonant chords can be used to build up and release tension > in music. (snip > Too much dissonance, and you risk it sounding so sharp and spicy that it's > almost unlistenable. > Howard Wow! I enjoyed your explanation! Are you a music teacher? N P too loud in my daughter's room...that dissonant KORN shit that yanks my neck muscles and twists! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:47:01 -0000 From: "Steve Powell" Subject: Re: NJC - Dissonance - -----Original Message----- From: Scott Price To: catman Cc: joni@smoe.org Date: 09 February 1999 00:42 Subject: NJC - Dissonance >"catman" asked: >>scot wrote:'it's the creative use of dissonance in many of her songs' >>Could someone explain what this means please? > > >I'll take a stab at it, Colin, although it would be much easier to *play* >examples for you as opposed to writing about it! > >We are often brought up, musically, listening to "children's music" and >graduate to more folk, country, pop, and classical styles. A lot of these >genres are characterized by major or "melodic" chords; simple chords >composed of two or three notes that sound "smooth" to the ears. Minor >chords (made by lowering the pitch of *one* of the notes by a half-step) >are introduced to our ears and often convey a feeling of sadness. Adding >even more notes to the chords *can* make them sound more complex, which >only makes sense, because after all the musician is adding layers (notes) >to the basic structure. > >As these additional notes are played it can come across to the listener >that some of the notes are "clashing" or conflicting with each other, and >the degree to which this affects the listener is the amount of dissonace >that is perceived. It's a personal thing, Colin; there's really no way to >measure it, it's just something you feel. > >The majority of jazz music you hear will have much more dissonance than >"popular" music because the musicians gravitate toward very complex chords, >or in Joni's words: "peculiar chords." Dissonance may also be added to the >song through the use of unsyncopated percussion or any other number of >little tricks. > >If you were to get an old pot from your kitchen cupboard and bang on it >with a wooden mallet, that would probably sound dissonant to most folks. >But if you were able to incorporate that sound and beat into a song with >some sort of a structure, then you'd have dissonance which could be enjoyed >because you were being creative in its use....although your neighbors may >still call the police no matter how much you assure them it's simply >"creative dissonance." :-) > >Scott > >Good question and thanks Scott for a very clear and articulate explanation. Most of us have an idea of what dissonance is but to put it into words like that is difficult and you made it sound easy > >Steve Powell > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:59:31 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Joni's music I don't remember who it was that posted & I've deleted it but, someone put up a page with some of Joni's music. One piece was "Down To You" with just the piano. I absolutely love it. That's one of my favorite piano pieces in her music and to listen to just the piano is great. Who ever you are could you repost that e-mail address? Thanks Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:05:39 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: would it be JC? As I'm sitting here reading and typing away, my daughter Joni asked this question: If you talk about me mom, is it Joni content? HUMMMMM? She is also an musician and artist....but can't sing a note! She's primed for this wonderful alternative stuff! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:05:05 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Joni's friendships old loves (XJC) > Since we're endulging wild rumors, I have a question: Was Don Alias > Joni's lover, and was this the real motivation behind the star-breaker > machinery? > > ;~@ E.T. I wouldn't consider this discussion as "rumors" she did have relationships with these guys. It's more of a "busy body" type of thread if there needs to be a label. As far as Don Alias, I believe she did have a relationship with him too! I don't quite understand the star-breaker machinery comment. Are you quoting FMin Paris (it's maker not breaker)? Or implying that because of him she turned away from making "hits" and went more or less "underground" and thus the word breaker? Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:08:46 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Irish as uneducated (NJC) - -----Original Message----- From: Kakki >I would love to hear from Philip Kakki, it's just too looney to respond to. But if somebody really believes this, they probably need help not an argument. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:11:11 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Song To A Seagull Deb Messling wrote: > Yes! Joni's earliest album uses an "older" sounding voice. I think > in Clouds and especially in LOTC, she was artificially squeaking her > voice up and ironing out all the vibrato in an effort to sound more > youthful, or more contemporary, anyway. Also remember that there was a hiss problem in the recording of STAS. Joni tells the story in one of the tape trees. The recording engineer, who had passed on before remixing, was on his last legs. They had to try and fix the hiss which dramatically decreased the treble tones resulting in what Judy Collins (I believe) said made Joni's voice sound like it was under a bell jar. So when Clouds and LOTC was released it may have sounded a bit more artificially altered or affected, but it was closer to her "natural" voice of the time than what you hear on STAS. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:45:41 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Joni & Don Eric (I think) wrote: >Since we're endulging wild rumors, I have a question: Was Don Alias >Joni's lover I certainly believe so. They were a couple for quite a while. Joni was with Don the first time I met her, at a Bob Dylan show, Universal Amphitheatre, 6/7/78. >and was this the real motivation behind the star-breaker >machinery? It must be too early in the morning...what am I missing here? Star *breaker* machinery???? Huh??? ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:46:02 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: driving In a message dated 2/8/99 8:34:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << I do come across the occassional woman in a fancy car driving like a dickhead >> well EXCUSE ME marilyn!! i FREQUENTLY come across men in my road wanderings who drive like a complete clitoris but i just figure they were busy wishing they had breasts. (if i had breasts i would just stay at home for the rest of my life and play with them...) love, ric (who is home today, taking care of my sick little lindsay and am getting a wee bit tired of peeling her grapes and toasting her pop tarts...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:54:44 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Can the Korn, please! (NJC) Marilyn was dealing with: <> Yes, Marilyn, Korn is the group that was given to this generation so that ours could yell the classic "Turn that crap down"!! :~D Bob, who would rather have to eat Brussel Sprouts than listen to Korn... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:25:06 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Travel Tips (NJC) Winfried wrote: >First of all, are there, by any chance, JMDLers living en route, >especially in northern Wales, close to the Island of Anglesey? I plan on >passing the night there, so there probably would be an evening to spend. Having done the Holyhead-Dun Laoghaire (sp?) car ferry in '97 I would just say DO NOT plan on staying in Holyhead. The hotels near the ferry are awful. Driving round the island counter-clockwise from the ferry, we found a good-looking RAC/AA place, but had already paid for our room in one of the fleapits. It seems very odd to me, that with an early morning ferry departure, there aren't better places to stay close to it. Enjoy the trip - Galway is lovely, as Irish Philip can attest! I really enjoyed driving in Ireland. Uncrowded, well-surfaced roads for the most part. Best, ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:35:31 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: cactus tree... hi bob, to respond to your earlier posts to me: < ...By the same token, I asked you about Joni Lightfoot and never got a response... > first off, I have looked and looked and I cannot find your email/post re: Joni Joni ever had more than a simple "friendship" type of relationship > which sort of ties in with: < How about "Cactus Tree"? I see lines like "There's a man who sent a letter..." ummmm... how do I say this... well, I certainly would have *liked* to have had 'more than a friendship' with her... (me and a thousand other guys!) but when I first met her she was still married and it never really crossed my mind... also, there was the difference in our ages... she, about 21/22 and myself a mere 17... I think, had I been her age, I would have actually tried to get next to her after she split with Chuck... she gave one the feeling that a little romance would be ok with her... (the words "...try to keep myself open up to you" come to mind...) but me? I was a virgin... in fact I lost my virginity during that time I knew her to a sweet young farm girl with a lot of the same qualities I saw in Joni and lived with her for the next two years... oh, what an intense effect Joni had on me! and I mean more than my teenage crush on her... we were friends and we spent many hours just hanging together. I've written before trying to describe this and it's not all that easy... Joni was very... open... even flirty. *S* when she talked to you she talked about you... not herself, unless you asked... and she was a joker and knew how to make a guy smile and feel like a million and very much at ease... she didn't play games but looked you right in the eye when she was with you and I never heard her put anyone down... (well, at least not to boost herself up) and she was extremely honest... even blunt... and, as far as I know, still is. another thing, and I'm repeating myself again, that always comes to mind when I think of her had more to do with her being a performer... see, since I booked all the acts I dealt with many performers... and, over time, with the additional insight of being one myself, came to understand that there's a certain amount of (probably necessary) egotism that goes with the job... it was pretty unusual in the first place having me, a performer, as the booking manager... even stranger from my perspective. audiences rarely see it cause, onstage, everyone loves everyone but offstage..? just try getting two solo performers together in the same room when 'nobody's looking'! most of the time the competitive tension is so thick you could cut it with a knife... this was totally absent with Joni... not only did she enjoy being around other performers but she somehow seemed to be able to get them to let down their defenses as well! this is interesting to me when I look at the community of artists who've gravitated toward her and around her... I mean think about it... she's really pretty unique in that sense. I know that, as a musician, one of my favorite memories is that she used to come out of the back and listen to my sets... *S* as to the 'cactus tree'... you ask "Did/Do you know who she's singing about?"well, I wrote on that before also... this is how it was... there were men... *lots* of men... men who, for example, caught her performance in philly, perhaps got a chance to speak with her for a minute or two, and then took off from work or school, jumped on a plane or a bus and *followed* her to her next gig... and her next... and her next... etc. the reason I am so acutely aware of this is because it was usually I who was the go-between if someone wanted to talk to the performer for some reason and these guys were obsessed! ...persistent and obsessed... and they tried everything, even to the point that sometimes we had to threaten to ask them to leave, which, btw, would always calm them right down. sometimes Joni would say yes and talk with one of them for a few minutes out of interest or sympathy, but mostly she would refuse because she knew where it would go... flowers... marriage proposals... a trip to hawaii... 'let me take you away from all this'... etc. so bob, when you ask me if I know who... that's who I think about on the cactus tree... guys like that... and guys like me. *G* I probably didn't, at 17, have the wherewithal to understand it then, but, in hindsight, I think Joni was a very sensual and romantic young lady... and not all that hindered by convention... she'd met Chuck at the riverboat coffeehouse in toronto (where they had two clubs, one upstairs and one down, one for american performers and one for canadian... I can only remember that one was called the riverboat... can't recall the name of the other or which was which... used to know, damn it) and married him, as we all know, for practical purposes mostly... a far cry from what seems to be the carefree art school romance that produced Kilauren, and, to be honest, that's just the way it seemed between them... practical... I think that, by the time I met them in '66, the adoption had already taken place and they seemed to be more a singing duet than husband and wife... I mean, social... nice... but with little interaction between them. ( Joni didn't talk about it much but she did relate to me that Chuck took it hard when she became more in demand than he and bookers didn't want the two of them but only her, forcing Chuck to book himself individually too... I think this was when they started to talk about divorce...) at any rate, after they were split I think Joni had had it up to here with being 'practical' and was very very hungry for love and passion as a woman and as an artist. it doesn't surprise me at all that she went on from there to search out rewarding relationships in these areas... and, in some cases, to find them...  pat ps - will respond to the rest of your post, re: STAS, when I have more time, ok? Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:32:54 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Irish as uneducated (NJC) Wow talk about a faux paux. Heres the story. I was reading some of the threads on the Magdalena laundry and I noticed that a number of the posts were talking in the present tense ie. as if the place existed today and that women were still being sent there. The discussion seemed to me to imply that those who were discussing it were imposing modern perceptions on what was basically to me a sort of medevil "facility". The ML to me is as Bedlam in NY in the early 1900's was to the modern mental health facility. Bedlam was a horrific place but we cant sit in judgement of it today because the entire context under which it was viewed as a solution was a long time ago when virtually every aspect of our society and the world was so different then as opposed to now.. My grandmothers family migrated here to the US about the late 1800's and I spent many times with her telling me what it was like in Ireland for her parents and grandparents. One thing that stuck in my mind was the matters relating to the large families (of which hers was one). Education was almost non existent where she was from. It was the same for my Italian side in Italy. All I was trying to say (I was in a hurry at the time) was that the cultural context which created places like the ML in the 1850's was so different I dont think we can look at the place through a "90's lense. My refernce to large familys and low IQ's was because of the severity of food shortages and the economic stresses on such families. It was primarily from such families that many (not all ) of the women who ended up in the ML came from. I doubt the prime ministers daughter ever went there if you know what I mean. My reference was to Ireland in the 1800's. Many things were grotesquely dealt with in the 19th century. there was an outbreak of bubonic plague in Chinatown in 1848. the entire Chinese section of San Francisco was surrounded by the army and no one was allowed to go in or out. Its somewhat different today (TIC). Im sorry if my off the cuff, out of context, remark offended anyone. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go to church pray for all those burning for the rest of eternity in hell for eating meat on friday prior to the Second Vatican Counsel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:16:42 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: cactus tree... Pat wrote a novella and then said: <> Pat, no hurry, thanks for this detailed and informative post...you broke your string of NJC! :~D Bob NP: Lionel Hampton "Be-Bop" PS - I went to your homepage...does anybody else think you bear a strong resemblance to Wolfman Jack? :^D ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:24:11 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Irish as uneducated (NJC) Marcel wrote: <<>> Cultural context is important, yes, but I for one am not a moral relativist and do believe the Magdalene Laundries to have been a morally repugnant institution, no matter the cultural context. Our understanding of them may be more nuanced by a consideration of their context, but our condemnation is not. To draw a parallel, slavery was wrong in the mid-1850s and it is wrong today. Period. [And I feel reluctant to even add the obligatory IMO here.] - --Michael NP: Aden, _Black Cow_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:47:51 EST From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ Well said kakki. Oppression is oppression no matter what ugly form it takes and having only one choice (perceived or otherwise) can be oppression unto itself. Michele "who you gonna get to do the dirty work when all the slaves are free?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:50:35 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Can the Korn, please! (NJC) > Yes, Marilyn, Korn is the group that was given to this generation so that ours > could yell the classic "Turn that crap down"!! :~D > > Bob, who would rather have to eat Brussel Sprouts than listen to Korn... Then she says to me...MAAAOOOM...I got straight A's will you take me to the KORN concert! With a devilish look on my face I reply...ask your father (we're divorced)! he he he! She got him to take her to see BUSH, another one of those dissonant groups!!! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:11:15 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Song To A Seagull Jerry Notaro wrote: > So when Clouds and LOTC was released it may have > sounded a bit more artificially altered or affected, but it was closer > to her "natural" voice of the time than what you hear on STAS. On LOTC she was using her soprano voice alot. On Clouds, it really sounds to me like they actually sped up the tapes a little bit, it sounds slightly "Chipmonky". I've actually gone so far as to slow down the record on "Aging Children" and it sounds alot more natural. Clouds is the only album that sounds like that to me. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 20:27:23 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: (NJC) Re: The Redundance of "IMO" (was: Irish as uneducated) Michael Yarbrough wrote: > To draw a parallel, slavery was wrong in the mid-1850s and it is > wrong today. Period. > > [And I feel reluctant to even add the obligatory IMO here.] > Actually, it's completely redundant to use "IMO" at all, under all circumstances! Whatever you write without attributing to somebody else will always be your own opinion. Just like this one is "My Opinion". Winfried, taking revenge for that "beep"-post .... :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:52:13 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Joni'n'James'n'David California Steve wrote: >Also, another clue to "Cold Blue Steel" being about JT is the fact >that in the FTR songbook she has the lyrics facing a memorable >painting of JT. Steve, My copy of FTR shows the song facing a painting of a nurse shooting up. Philip NP Bobby Gentry - ode to Billie Joe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:53:20 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Visiting the Magdalene Laundries? (NJC) - -----Original Message----- From: Winfried Hühn >I am currently thinking about visiting some friends of mine in Galway, >Do the Magdalene Laundries or at least their buildings still exist ? Winfried, When you're in Galway the Magdalen Laundery is convenient. When you leave the train station turn right into Foster street. Behind a modern bank on a corner is the convent and chapel. Pop in and say hello to the sisters. I'll be in the US then, sorry we can't meet. Philip NP Mercury Rev - holes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:58:03 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Pound & WCW (NJC) The apparition of these faces in the crowd; Petals on a wet, black bough. yah, much better, especially the rhythm. FWIW the internet-haiku types have loosened the meter, although apparently keeping other tenets such as references to the seasons. regarding half-remembered favorites: can anybody complete Williams' so much depends on the red wheelbarrow. . . ? tr ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`). (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (il).-'' (li).' ((!.-' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:57:50 -0500 From: "Marsha" Subject: Cooking up our best recipes Here in Tennessee our legislature is considering revising our Roadkill law to include takin' that varmint (or deer, which is the real problem here) unfortunate enough to be smacked by our bumpers and cookin' it up for supper.... hmmm...I feel a Joni Roadkill Cookbook coming on.... "Refuse of the Roads"...anyone? (I killed a skunk of strong spirit He squished and aromanized....) Sorry, Marian, I know you are looking for legit stuff, but the politicians here got me going in my usual Joni-fashion! Marsha, would rather have a dirty mind than be brainwashed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:21:12 -0800 From: jan Subject: Re: Pound & WCW (NJC) At 03:58 PM 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >regarding half-remembered favorites: can anybody complete Williams' > >so much depends on the red wheelbarrow. . . ? >tr > "glazed with rain water, beside the white chickens" (?) I think it's something like that... - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:36:09 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Cooking up our best recipes Marsha suggests: <> No regrets, Coyote You're just a victim of circumstance You're on the end of this skewer, With a dressing that tastes like ranch... Hey - at least I added to *one* of the cookbooks! :^D Bob NP: Throwing Muses, "run letter" from an Apache Records Sampler ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:18:42 EST From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: Colin's NJC (NJC) I havn't posted to the list for ages, mainly because I am having difficulty withdownloading my digests and only get to read about 25% as a result. I can't work out what the problem is. Anyway, Colin's post from a few days back caught my eye and took me back to when I first joined the list, not long after Colin did. < This last 18 months on the JMDL have been very educational for me. Unfortunately, when I joined, I was just coming off the manic phase of my illness and heading for the depression phase. For the last little while, three months, I have been 'normal'. Anyway, as a result of my bipolarity, I have written many posts that were entirely inappropriate. Inappropriate because it isn't within the JMDL scope to share some really personal stuff as I have done! Not only that but it is emabarassing for me to recall some of it now, especially when i know it is available for all and sundry to read on the archives. Mind you quite why i should think those people are different to the 600 on this list i am not sure! > I remember when I first started to read Colin's post, probably at the end of his manic phase, I found them a bit incoherent and rambling and sometimes angry, so I stopped reading them for a while. Once I became aware that he was struggling with an illness however, my perspective on his writings changed and I read them again with much more understanding and appreciation of his standpoint. Two points are worth making - First, that when anyone first joins this list,all the other members are unknown quantities - we know nothing about them apart from what we read and it's easy to jump to false conclusions especially if we arrive in the middle of an ongoing debate. I'm sure many recent members are unaware of the extent of the problems that Colin has had to deal with over the last 18 months and why should they be? Secondly, Colin himself might like to think about the fact that many other subscribers to this list may have similar problems to his own or other problems, physical, mental or social, which may account for apparently bizarre opinions or comments or for excessive sensitivity or anger. And what is "normal" anyway? I suppose Les's "tolerence, tolerence, tolerence" says it all. Keep on posting, Colin, but don't get upset by other people's comments . Jacky "In this illusionary place - all liberty is laced with borderlines" JM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:47:31 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: More on Joni painting M.Russell@iaea.org wrote: > > I went to see a show of Joni's artwork in London in 1990 (or 1991?), and I > could hardly relate to any of the pieces. They were interesting I guess, > but I wouldn't categorize them as particularly pleasing. Most of them were > very abstract and some of them were quite strange! I really know nothing > about art, but after seeing this show, I have to disagree strongly with > anyone who says that Joni doesn't have her own distinctive style. I'd like to see these, or to see any of her original work, especially separate from music packaging. In an interview before TI came out she said she was doing traditional paintings to get her "chops back" so she could do the Van Gogh image, which made sense because she'd been doing photography for several years and there is a certain manual dexterity needed for painting. What a shock to see these practice paintings/copies actually used in the CD cover. It's like she stepped back into the 19th century, and stayed there with the TTT cover. I just don't understand how "Joni the innovator" could do this. > She calls music her straight job and painting her calling (or something > like that). She says she's a painter first (and I don't think she means just timewise). It bugs me when she's saying this a lot, as she was in all the interviews last fall. It brings out the art critic in me, instead of the music lover. And, if her music is just something she can toss off and is so unimportant to her, why have I listened to it for so many years? It feels like a putdown of her fans. At this point, I tell myself I'm taking her brief comments way too personally. Hard for me not to though, that's how I take all her music. That's why I keep listening (but am staying away from reading interviews). Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:07:50 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Cooking up our best recipes In New Hampshire I saw a diner called The Road Kill Cafe. i photgraphed it. It had a funny pic on the sign of a skunk and a tire. the skink's expression was a picture! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:26:51 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Dissonance/Tunes catman wrote: > > ... to me, her songs don't have > tunes. The Circle Game is about the only one I can think of with a definate > tune to it. It's hard for me too to get the melodies fixed in my head and can't do it without singing (or thinking) the words, or at least similar sounding syllables. It's like Joni's words are the drumbeat that moves the melody along, as opposed to some songs (the theme from Titanic comes to mind) that I can hum without a clue as to what the words are. I'm usually just singing along to the Joni (from CDs) that I hear in my head (she has to do the low notes). Today though I'm stuck on singing Marcie (which I can do pretty well on my own), and at the same time am hearing Joni singing No Apologies. First time that kind of thing's happened. DS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:52:02 EST From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: Re: Cooking up our best recipes/NJC In a message Marsha suggests: <> And Bob responds... No regrets, Coyote You're just a victim of circumstance You're on the end of this skewer, With a dressing that tastes like ranch... Hey - at least I added to *one* of the cookbooks! :^D >> Bob you and Marsha win the prize for most humorous postings today! You both cracked me up! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:46:09 EST From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: Re: Cooking up our best recipes/NJC In a message dated 99-02-09 16:03:29 EST, you write: << "Refuse of the Roads"...anyone? (I killed a skunk of strong spirit He squished and aromanized....) >> I LOL on this Marsha! Thank you for making me smile. Just like joni! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:02:34 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Subject: newbies and bouncing Q2: My messages keep being 'bounced' - and therefore arriving three days after everyone else, which means I always contribute to discussions when they're already over. How do I stop my messages behaving in this socially irresponsible way? Hi Paul, The only times my posts bounce is when I forget to change the format from Rich Text (HTML) to Plain Text. If you are using Outlook Express you change the setting in Format. Or you can permanently make all posts to the JMDL Plain Text in the address book. Hope that helps. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:23:29 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: More on Joni painting Marilyn wrote: I wholeheartedly agree! Personally my favorite paintings by Joni are from the Mingus album. BTW, who is that playing the sax naked beside Joni (also naked) on the cover. It's quite erotic and I'm surprised that it made it past the censors! E.T. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #69 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. 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