From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #68 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, February 9 1999 Volume 04 : Number 068 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Visiting the Magdalene Laundries? (NJC) ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ [catman ] Joni'n'James'n'David [Steve Dulson ] Re: Visiting the Magdalene Laundries? (NJC) [catman ] "Fallen Girls" [Anne Madden ] Re: "Fallen Girls" [catman ] Re: public acceptance... (NJC) [LRFye@aol.com] Re: Irony [catman ] NJC - Dissonance [Scott Price ] Re: public acceptance... (NJC) [catman ] Re: public acceptance... (What Joni might say) [LRFye@aol.com] Re: NJC - Dissonance [catman ] Re: NJC - Dissonance [catman ] Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ [luvart@snet.net] Joni in LA Times [Steve Dulson ] njc ["Teresa Ritzert" ] Re: Large Uneducated Irish Families [Ginamu@aol.com] Song To A Seagull [Don Sloan ] Re: Joni in LA Times [Mark-n-Travis ] RE: Song To A Seagull ["Deb Messling" ] Re: public acceptance... (What Joni might say) [Mark-n-Travis ] Re: (NJC) Religon/M.Laundries etc, etc [MGVal@aol.com] Re: NJC - Dissonance [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Gershwin's World (1-of-2) 'Downbeat' Review [Mark-n-Travis ] Johnatha Brooke's Live [Bounced Message ] newbies and bouncing [Bounced Message ] Re: More on Joni painting (SJC) [Bounced Message ] lonely painters (some joni content for once) [Bounced Message ] Re: Song To A Seagull [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Joni's friendships old loves (XJC) ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: newbies and bouncing [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ [Randy Remote ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:45:41 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Visiting the Magdalene Laundries? (NJC) This is especially to all you British and Irish people out there. I am currently thinking about visiting some friends of mine in Galway, Ireland around March 20 until March 30, right after my exam paper will have been turned in. I have never been to the UK before, and it's a crying shame I have little more than one tiny week. I'll probably take the car ferry from Hamburg, Germany to Harwich, then drive across England to Holyhead, Wales, from where the ferries debark for Ireland. First of all, are there, by any chance, JMDLers living en route, especially in northern Wales, close to the Island of Anglesey? I plan on passing the night there, so there probably would be an evening to spend. How about Ireland? I probably won't make it to the southeastern part (unless I choose to take the Rosslare ferry back), but I'll definitely visit the Western parts around Galway and Cork. And Dublin, of course, Europe's #1 boomtown. Do the Magdalene Laundries or at least their buildings still exist? If they are just one institution, where are they located? I probably wouldn't spend a day on visiting them especially , but if I'm close anyway, I could at least take a picture for Les' website. Any other suggestions on what I should do/avoid, bring, see, eat etc. etc. ??? I know I will need my raingear!!! Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:04:58 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC - Jonatha Brooke scot wrote:'it's the creative use of dissonance in many of her songs' Could someone explain what this means please? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:04:52 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ > > > Yes it is different. They walked into their little prison of their own free > will and can walk out when they want to, outgrow their need for authority > figures to run their lives, etc. Unfortunately it is not that simple. Not at all. It is very hard for those that got involved as adults to leave due to the mind control techniques used.It is even harder for those involved as children. Leaving a cult is very very difficult and extremely frightening. it takes much courage. I know-I have been there. bw colin > The laundry women were physically trapped all > their lives. > RR - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:07:11 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Joni'n'James'n'David Someone (sorry!) wrote: >Blue was written about JT. and Irish Philip replied: >I read somewhere that Blue was about the singer David Blue. >She also sang on his record. I'm with Philip on this - the album was called "River" until her relationship with Mr. Blue generated a great song called, yes, "Blue". Also, another clue to "Cold Blue Steel" being about JT is the fact that in the FTR songbook she has the lyrics facing a memorable painting of JT. Best, ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:11:42 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Visiting the Magdalene Laundries? (NJC) Win-just remember to drive on the other side of the road. And don't mention the war. And be prepared for a long drive. The max limit here is 70 and that is only on the motrways(autobahn) or dual carriageways. I do not think there is a matorway to het you from harwich to Holyhead. So most of the roads will be 30 to 60 mph limits. if you come now, never mind the rain-there is loads of snow! In North Wales beware of fog, rain and sheep(and their owners). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:25:55 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: Irony Colin wrote: > (The only song I can think of which is both sad in word and in music is > Job's Sad Song) Man from Mars absolutely tears me apart, especially the music. Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:04:26 -0500 From: Anne Madden Subject: Large Uneducated Irish Families MDESTE1@aol.com wrote - >All these arguments and points fail to take into account a very >obvious fact. Without spending a long time on a more detailed >answer. Ireland adnother places in the British Isles end up with >very large uneducated families. VERY uneducated. In some >cases kids from these families have very low IQ's and almost >no education. I hope I am not reading this statement correctly. I came from a family of 8 and I wouldn't consider myself uneducated. When I was growing up in Ireland I had several friends from very large families - they had 10-16 kids. It certainly was a struggle for some but to say they had low IQ's or grew up uneducated is ridiculous. The kids had to work hard and learn to be independent at an earlier age because things weren't handed to them on a silver platter It just made the majority of them more determined and most of the kids I know from my childhood went on to do very well for themselves despite their hardships. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:08:25 -0500 From: Anne Madden Subject: "Fallen Girls" Colin wrote - > >In the late 60's early 70's, I was taught in part by Catholic nuns. One of the >things we were taught was that a yoiung woman need never menstruate if she kept >her thoughts clean!!!! Colin, I was born and raised in Ireland and I was also taught my nuns for 10 years on a full time basis. Never have I heard this story about women. Sounds like a bit of the 'ol blarney to me! (and i mean the 60's and 70's of THIS century)And the >Magdelane Laundires situation only recently changed. I know in the 7's that >'fallen' Irish girls were still sent away. Sorry again Colin but I have to disagree. This certainly did happen in the 50's in a major way and certainly through to the mid and late 60's but in the 70's - definitely not! Young women were "hidden" away but sent away - no! The Magdelene Laundries did not exist then (thank God) Anne > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:24:20 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: "Fallen Girls" Anne Madden wrote: > Colin wrote - > > > > >In the late 60's early 70's, I was taught in part by Catholic nuns. One of > the > >things we were taught was that a yoiung woman need never menstruate if she > kept > >her thoughts clean!!!! > > Colin, I was born and raised in Ireland and I was also taught my nuns for > 10 years on a full time basis. Never have I heard this story about women. > Sounds like a bit of the 'ol blarney to me! There are Catholic nuns in places other than Ireland. Like the |Australian outback for example-where I was told this by a nun in class, with 30 odd other kids to hear it too. I might be getting old but I am not yet senile. > > > (and i mean the 60's and 70's of THIS century)And the > >Magdelane Laundires situation only recently changed. I know in the 7's that > >'fallen' Irish girls were still sent away. > > Sorry again Colin but I have to disagree. This certainly did happen in the > 50's in a major way and certainly through to the mid and late 60's but in > the 70's - definitely not! Young women were "hidden" away but sent away - > no! The Magdelene Laundries did not exist then (thank God) Not according to TV documentaries here and certainly not to the people I know that i referred to earlier in response to Philip. I believe I said young 'fallen' women were still sent away in the 70's. No where did I say to the M. L.'s. Now the women I know of, my age now, could be lying of course but I see no reason why they should.My partners sister, several years his junior, was one fallen girl who was sent away, in 71. To a home for single mothers till she gave birth. This was not in Ireland but here in the north. > > > Anne > > - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:13:15 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: public acceptance... (NJC) Colin wrote: > Patrick wrote: > and colin misspoke when he said 'we voted on it'. > > I don't get this. Firstly, there was a vote on the NJC subject, compiled by > Lori. Secondly, am I not entitled to say so? Now that my name has come up, my four quarters' worth: 1) I think what patrick was trying to say is simply that it doesn't matter whether we voted on anything; the list belongs to Les and he has decided that it be an unmoderated list, which in essence means "anything goes," at least within the framework created by common politeness and n'etiquette. 2) Colin, you are certainly entitled to say so, at least IMHO. 3) I did indeed compile votes on the appropriateness of NJC, but that was back in March/April '98, which seems forever ago. The poll ran for a month, and the results were: 21.3% for Anything Goes* 42.6% for NJC Okay* 25.5% for More Or Mostly JC Or Music 10.6% for JC Only *There was some debate about whether the first two categories were the same thing. I'm not sure if we ever determined the difference, but I think it had something to do with the NJC tag being present or not. Interesting as the above results may (or may not) be, what's truly revealing is that those results were derived from a sum total of 47 votes. That doesn't seem to be very many votes for a topic that creates so much heated debate and insult. Many people have joined the JMDL since; some have departed. Maybe it's time for a new poll? 4) I can't believe this particular discussion is still going on; didn't this start before I left for a really marvelous time in California? Hmm. What's the deal??? Lori, disgruntled but feeling rather attractive in her Van Gogh t-shirt San Antonio NP: Shawn Colvin's version of Satin Sheets ("Praise the Lord and pass the mescaline ...") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:32:08 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Irony I was thinking about this in the car earlier driving home in the snow(wonderful-we rarely get snow in London) and I thought of another song that is sad in music too-Chinese cafe-but only cos of Unchained Melody. Sorry, lori, but I guess Joni's music doesn't strike me that way. Come to think of it, none makes me feel joyous either. So I cannot expolain what it is about her that makes me like her so much. Oh, hang on, Baby You're So Square and Twisted lift my spirits. Now other singers cause my emotions to shift quite strongly, but Joni doesn't do this for me. she must do something otherwise i wouldn't listen every day. i don't know how to put it into words but it is like she does something quietly and inwardly that calms me-almost like meditation. She makes me think and rarely makes me feel light. bw colin LRFye@aol.com wrote: > Colin wrote: > > > (The only song I can think of which is both sad in word and in music is > > Job's Sad Song) > > Man from Mars absolutely tears me apart, especially the music. > > Lori > San Antonio - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:39:01 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: NJC - Dissonance "catman" asked: >scot wrote:'it's the creative use of dissonance in many of her songs' >Could someone explain what this means please? I'll take a stab at it, Colin, although it would be much easier to *play* examples for you as opposed to writing about it! We are often brought up, musically, listening to "children's music" and graduate to more folk, country, pop, and classical styles. A lot of these genres are characterized by major or "melodic" chords; simple chords composed of two or three notes that sound "smooth" to the ears. Minor chords (made by lowering the pitch of *one* of the notes by a half-step) are introduced to our ears and often convey a feeling of sadness. Adding even more notes to the chords *can* make them sound more complex, which only makes sense, because after all the musician is adding layers (notes) to the basic structure. As these additional notes are played it can come across to the listener that some of the notes are "clashing" or conflicting with each other, and the degree to which this affects the listener is the amount of dissonace that is perceived. It's a personal thing, Colin; there's really no way to measure it, it's just something you feel. The majority of jazz music you hear will have much more dissonance than "popular" music because the musicians gravitate toward very complex chords, or in Joni's words: "peculiar chords." Dissonance may also be added to the song through the use of unsyncopated percussion or any other number of little tricks. If you were to get an old pot from your kitchen cupboard and bang on it with a wooden mallet, that would probably sound dissonant to most folks. But if you were able to incorporate that sound and beat into a song with some sort of a structure, then you'd have dissonance which could be enjoyed because you were being creative in its use....although your neighbors may still call the police no matter how much you assure them it's simply "creative dissonance." :-) Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:38:23 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: public acceptance... (NJC) > > > 1) I think what patrick was trying to say is simply that it doesn't matter > whether we voted on anything; the list belongs to Les and he has decided that > it be an unmoderated list, which in essence means "anything goes," at least > within the framework created by common politeness and n'etiquette. Thanks for the explanation Lori. I didn't understand the comment now I do. I am sure you are attractive even without the Van Gogh t shirt! luv colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:26:20 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: public acceptance... (What Joni might say) Bob wrote: > Please people, this NJC discussion about NJC has grown a beard and is > incredibly tired... What Joni might say about all this NJC about NJC: "Boring! The old man is snoring" ; ) Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:47:39 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC - Dissonance If I have understood you correctly, then it was a good explanation. So i take it joni has a lot of dissonance cos , to me, her songs don't have tunes. The Circle Game is about the only one I can think of with a definate tune to it. Whereas my other love, Carly, has tunes to every song, almost. I guess that is a clumsy way of explaining what I think you mean but it is the best I can do!!! thanks colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:55:18 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC - Dissonance PS: John just got in and I asked him to read what you wrote. He is a musician, a trained bass opera singer, tho not his job. Anyhow, I asked him if I had understood you by saying in short'Joni doesn't have tunes Carly does' and he says yes, more or less! Before everyone goes jumping on me, to me joni's songs are not tunes, that is how I here them. BUT they do have a pattern my brain relates to-it isn't unmelodic noise. btw the way, talking about mallets and pots, have you evr seen a group called TapDogs that do things with dustbin lids etc? I think they are really good. They might be called something else. They are an australian group of men I am thinking of. I have a feeling there is a similar group and they might be Tap Dogs. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:54:57 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ At 05:22 PM 2/8/99 EST, you wrote: >All these arguments and points fail to take into account a very >obvious fact. Without spending a long time on a more detailed >answer. Ireland adnother places in the British Isles end up with >very large uneducated families. VERY uneducated. In some >cases kids from these families have very low IQ's and almost >no education. All the things you guys are referencing ie cults >and what amounts to reform school type places arent "at will" >places for many reasons. there were and are many "forces" >keeping people in these places. No law keeps a woman with >a wife beater yet inexplicably many stay. Its all a case of >reference points. Where would the supposed escapees go? >To a family which placed them there in the first place ? > > Just a tangible side note - I have a new grad student working for me who is from Poland. I was telling her about the Magdalene Laundries. She told me that a short while ago while visiting in Poland she heard a priest consoling a mother because her daughter was pregnant and not married. He told her "Well at least she didn't commit a bigger sin and use contraceptives." Good Lord! No wonder there are problems! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:09:57 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Joni in LA Times Friday's (2/5/99) LA Times-Orange County mentioned Joni in their "Off-kilter" column (page E4): The Joni Mitchell Special Achievement Award goes to Orange County government officials for bringing to life the lyric "They paved paradise, put up a parking lot." In this case, the parking lot is the county's entire freeway system... (The author, Roy Rivenburg, then goes on to describe some up-coming problems with the local freeways.) ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:48:17 PST From: "Teresa Ritzert" Subject: njc Regarding Ireland, Catholicism, and women I strongly recommend that one take time to read "Whoredom in Kimmage" by Rosemary Mahoney. I read it when it was released in the early 90s & it remains one of my favorite all time reads. Resa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:07:44 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Large Uneducated Irish Families In a message dated 2/8/99 7:07:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, amadden@bconnex.net writes: > MDESTE1@aol.com wrote - > > >All these arguments and points fail to take into account a very > >obvious fact. Without spending a long time on a more detailed > >answer. Ireland adnother places in the British Isles end up with > >very large uneducated families. VERY uneducated. In some > >cases kids from these families have very low IQ's and almost > >no education. I'm baffled. What are we to make of this? Since when is IQ related to family size or ethnicity and upon what have you based your opinion? Gina Gina ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 18:30:10 -0800 From: Don Sloan Subject: Song To A Seagull Terri wrote: > > My favorite album is STAS (I realize I am in the minority!) The first > > time I listened to it, I dreamt of the ocean that night. I know it may > > not be as rich and complex as other albums, but I love its beauty and > > simplicity. I love the beauty and simplicity of it, too. Beyond that, it's hard for me to say exactly why it rates at the top of my Joni-list. Maybe it's because I heard it when it first came out so it has been a friend to me longer than any of the other albums. Or maybe it's because those were very interesting and emotional times for me (and millions of others for sure!) so it brings back unique feelings each time it gets a play. Mostly I think I love it because to my ears it's the most ethereal of Joni's music. Put me in front of a fireplace in an otherwise dark room on a cold winter night, STAS playing thru headphones, and I'm transported to places I can't get to with any other ticket. Don ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 18:58:24 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Joni in LA Times Steve Dulson wrote: > "They paved paradise, put up a parking lot." In this case, > the parking lot is the county's entire freeway system... > > (The author, Roy Rivenburg, then goes on to describe some > up-coming problems with the local freeways.) I have to admit, Steve, they were my least favorite part of the L A experience. However, that hasn't stopped 'California Dreamin' from playing in my head off & on a *lot* since I've been back in the Northwest. Mark in Seattle (where snow is expected in the hilltop areas tonight) .....California dreamin' on such a winter's day! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:08:42 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: Song To A Seagull Yes! Joni's earliest album uses an "older" sounding voice. I think in Clouds and especially in LOTC, she was artificially squeaking her voice up and ironing out all the vibrato in an effort to sound more youthful, or more contemporary, anyway. > I was also struck while listening to it a couple of weeks how much > of today's Joni, right up through TTT, you could hear vocally in > STAS but not in _Clouds_ or _LOTC_. Deb Messling ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:05:19 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: public acceptance... (What Joni might say) LRFye@aol.com wrote: > > Bob wrote: > > > Please people, this NJC discussion about NJC has grown a beard and is > > incredibly tired... > > What Joni might say about all this NJC about NJC: > > "Boring! > The old man is snoring" > > ; ) > > Lori > San Antonio Hey has anybody seen those bumper stickers & other sundry items that say WWJD? I guess that makes us an official cult. How many Sane people do you know who, in the face of difficult moral dilemnas, ask themselves 'What would Joni do?' Sorry. I couldn't resist. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:14:25 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Irish as uneducated (NJC) Marcel wrote: >All these arguments and points fail to take into account a very >obvious fact. Without spending a long time on a more detailed >answer. Ireland adnother places in the British Isles end up with >very large uneducated families. VERY uneducated. In some >cases kids from these families have very low IQ's and almost >no education. Marcel, I am astounded. Do you truly mean this or are you just trying to get my "Irish" up?! I am clearly not as qualified to comment on this as some of our listers from Ireland but I do have a tiny bit of background in this. Several years ago I belonged to an organization that linked up native Irish professionals in Southern California with Irish-American professionals. Through this group I learned of official statistics that people in Ireland are right up at the top of the rung in level of education per capita in Europe. The big problem was, however, lack of a varied economic base and professional job opportunites in the country, which resulted in a very large brain drain every year from its' young well-educated population as they left in droves for better opportunities in America and other countries in Europe. To staunch this flow, the Irish government implemented several very attractive incentives to bring large international corporations into the country. Several large American and Japanese companies jumped at these incentives, which included, I recall, tax-free status and other highly attractive inducements. They could produce their products in Ireland at a lower cost and a greater profit while providing many jobs to people. I personally know a few animators who went to work at American companies which located to Ireland when this program began. I also used to work for a large law firm which specializes in setting up businesses internationally. When I presented them with some of the literature about these potential opportunities for corporations in Ireland, they footed the bill for me and 10 lawyers to attend a large event honoring Mary Robinson, a former lawyer, who had just been elected President. The larger goal, of course, was to make some business contacts in light of the new economic environment there. If I'm way off base in this, I would love to hear from Philip or others who could add more to my basic knowledge on this subject. Kakki, whose French mother even admits she got *her* high IQ from the Irish side of the family (Sorry can't resist ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:18:02 EST From: MGVal@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) Religon/M.Laundries etc, etc In a message dated 99-02-08 16:09:53 EST, guitarzan@saber.net writes: From Khakki, (vis-a-vis cults and the MLs): >> Is this >> much different then the Magdalen Laundries? Not in my book. From Randy: >Yes it is different. They walked into their little prison of their own free >will and can walk out when they want to, outgrow their need for authority >figures to run their lives, etc. The laundry women were physically trapped >all their lives. Not THAT different! As a former cult member, you may walk into the prison of your own free will, but in more cases than not, you check the free will at the door. No deposit, no return. It's tough to even put the odds on the possibility of breaking free from the bondage of brainwashing versus the perpetual slavery of the laundry women. Where to go, what to do when evil is waiting to snatch you? MG - former Moonies ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:21:11 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Dissonance In a message dated 2/8/99 6:59:46 PM Central Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << I have a feeling there is a similar group and they might be Tap Dogs. >> Hey Colin, Tap Dogs just played here this weekend; I didn't see it but I wanted to - not enough $$...btw, I'm not sure I catch your drift about Joni not writing "tunes". To me, if one can hum it or sing it it's melody which is another way of saying "tune". I know what you were trying to say I think, but there's gotta be a better way to say it...maybe that Joni's tunes are too complex for you to retain in the same way that Carly's stuff is? When I think of dissonance, I think of notes being played together which aren't typical major chord/tonic/root sort of sounds. More applications in jazz and Classical I think... Bob NP: John Mellencamp "Suzanne & The Jewels" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:35:35 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Gershwin's World (1-of-2) 'Downbeat' Review simon@icu.com wrote: > Wayne Shorter's tenor wafts in to wrap around > her like cashmire--and after all these years, doesn't their partnership beg > comparison to Pres and Lady Day's? Yes, yes, yes! This occured to me some time ago, especially on TTT. I've been reading a bio of Billie and one of the quotes in it says that Billie sang the way Lester played and Lester played the way Billie sang and it's true. Both had an understated elegance that spoke volumes with just a few, quiet notes. And together they were magical. Joni & Wayne Shorter are different from Lady & Prez but the musical relationship is the same, imo. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:39:00 EST From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: Song To A Seagull I was living in Patrick Leader's neighborhood at the time, on the top floor of a tenament, on seventh street, between first and A. It was Hejira's heyday, and it was a warm summer night. The night of the legendary NYC blackout. I was on my bike, headed for my friends place on 10th. A potpourri of bohemian color. Most of us dance majors, some literature, to balance the attitude. I digress. This apartment of mine, was the one needle in a haystack. It occupied most of the west side of the seventh floor in a neighborhood where most of the building rose to only five floors. There was a church next door with verdegris coppered roof and steeple, ala Hissing's cover only viewed from the kitchen window. In this window housed a postoffice sorting box, which I painted silver and stacked it's 36 compartments with broken pieces of tinted green glass (inspiration from Sol LeWitt and Louise Nevelson combined). Off the kitchen to the rear of the apartment was my library with a window overlooking the romantic rooftops of the east village. There was a guest bedroom past it with the same view furnished with a French daybed which is now in my living room, amidst books and pillows. Down the long hall to the front of the apartment was a large living room with french doors and obligatory exposed brick wall. A diagonal window, with the view of the top of the Empire State Building's seasonal changing colored top illuminated. Most of the furniture was large 4' x 3' thick slate slab worktables and railroad tye, building block adaptable. Ah yes, and the ceiling a multicolored parachute in orange, green and red. Through the French doors into the master bedroom and the front of the apartment, views of the World Trade Center, with a fire escape perfect for summer lounging. I played a lot with light in that apartment, and burned a hell of a lot of candles. ANYWAY!, when I got to my friends place, through the confusion of cops directing traffic in the dusk, I was greeted by all my friends who knew me as the Joni Mitchell guy. They were, indeed colorful. Yolanda King (Martin Luther's daughter) was my dance partner (she was attending the theatre part of the school, while I was persueing my ill fated career in choreography.) We danced night after night to Stevie Wonder's Fullfillingness First Finale. Disco was hot, DJRD was about to be released. ANYWAY!, the point is that my friend put on STAS, which I hadn't listened to in years that night. That voice, the subject matter of "I came to the city" side, what so appropriate for the time. It was just one of those many Joni moments. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:32:40 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: The NJC debate From: "paul tyrer" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:49:51 -0000 Am I alone if finding the NJC/JC debates gripping? Or is it my rather sad life?? NP Blondie - Maria (it's so fabtastic!!) I guess so! Time for another G&T! Paul xxxxx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:38:06 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Johnatha Brooke's Live From: "Brandon" Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:58:15 -0600 I am on digest so this maybe already share but Brian Blade is on the "Live" album. I would not go as far as saying she is a Joni but if she is anything Joni it is the "Blue" through "C&S" years. Her lyrical quality stays on the plane of other GenXers IMHO. But overall she is well worth a listen to and a purchase. I have only heard a few cuts off the live album that were sent me by a friend. Peace, Craig NP: Julie Miller ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:36:59 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: newbies and bouncing From: "paul tyrer" Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:46:17 -0000 Hi to everyone esp. newbies. Q: when does one cease to become a newbie? Is the adjective for newbie "newbile" - are newbies newbile and if so when do they lose it? Am i still a newbie? I sure hope so. Q2: My messages keep being 'bounced' - and therefore arriving three days after everyone else, which means I always contribute to discussions when they're already over. How do I stop my messages behaving in this socially irresponsible way? PX NP - Lauren Hill - That thing... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:33:27 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: More on Joni painting (SJC) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 05:43:16 -0500 From: Steve Young Hi - This is Lisa Peakes responding on a friend's "e" mail account - I am at lpeakes@vpr.net <> This is how many people develop "their own" style - by trying on another's approach, and adapting it. Used to be it was THE way to train; to study the "old masters" - nowadays, we're much freer to pick up anywhere we like and just...well,...paint - or...write. But how're you going to know whether or not something's really right for you unless you try it on? I think Joni's grinning when she presents co-opted work - not with the intent to hoodwink or deceive, but in a vulnerable way - presenting her process of experimentation and discovery in public - maybe she thinks others will find the approach useful. Mitchell's never seemed apologetic about taking in and then transforming the efforts of others - "Neither a borrower nor a lender be" ! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:34:32 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: lonely painters (some joni content for once) From: "paul tyrer" Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:10:21 -0000 hi everyone joni's borrowing of paintings is quite a frequent event from what i can see on her album sleeves. it doesn't bother me - i don't think she is trying to pass paintings like the Leighton off as her own original ideas - because it would be all too easy for critics to shout 'FRAUD!' when these are some of the most famous paintings in history (and the Leighton is a v. common poster print here in the UK). I don't think it's laziness, particularly, either. In a way, it reminds me of the Van Gogh story on MoA - but kinda twisted. JM *does* 'play starry night again, man!' - there's a Matisse in the WTRF inner sleeve, a Rembrandt (I think) in TI. It's like covering a song because you like it. And if you applied the painterly logic to performing arts, there'd be no covers, no get-togethers to sing a few Joni tunes etc... My heart-wrenching (or is that gut-wrenching!) rendition of the last time i saw richard would be worthless because it wasn't my own composition. And what would Marian play in Vienna!! As for the "not acknowledging" comments, I'm with Morrissey - "Talent Borrows, Genius Steals". And JM does it with lyrics as much (if not more) than with art. But I did prefer JM's more abstract stuff - the picture entitled Dog Eat Dog (not the LP sleeve) was a masterpiece (IMHO) - to the rather bland stuff on TTT. PXX ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:36:00 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: PH's last post From: "paul tyrer" Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:37:33 -0000 Dear Pat People on the list - at least those who have posted recently - seem (not to put too fine a point on it) fed up with you. Every time you post a defence to your original comments in reply to a telling off, it unleashes a deluge of further replies from others and a lot more telling off. So maybe now is the time to do one of two things: 1. Accept the quantity and nature of NJC on the list as it is now, but post about your own thoughts and experiences on JM a lot more. This will encourage others to respond to you about JC rather than NJC. It's deeply ironic that so much of the recent NJC has been created by the debates by/about you. 2. Have a breather from the list for a bit. Fellow listers seem to feel that you can't say anything right at the moment - and maybe that's unfair to you to some extent and a breathing space would be good for all concerned. If neither of these appeal, carry on posting about NJC and - I guess - we'll all carry on arguing. I must say though, your 'agenda' does puzzle me - and if you could explain it to me (either personally or thru the list) I'd be glad to hear it. You say sexuality, religion and politics are unimportant, small things. But they are hugely important to many of us - as many responses have made clear. They are central matters in our lives. To suggest that we don't speak of these things on the list is, without question, a hugely POLITICAL point to make: if silence on grounds of sexuality, for instance, means 'no more gay chat on the list', that suggests a political agenda in itself. Like every other gay man and lesbian I know, I've spent years fighting for the right to express myself without the need for self-censorship. And I still can't do it, not completely, even though I'm out at work and to my family and friends. Because some people are homophobic, or might be homophobic. And because I spent my formative years not knowing one other person who felt the same way I did and had nobody to talk to about it and nobody to turn to - and that created a certain lack of self-confidence somewhere that I've never entirely been able to get over. Even though I've "achieved", have my own lovely house, lovely boyfriend etc etc. I don't know if you can imagine (I'm assuming you're straight but I might be wrong) not being able to think out loud about who you really are, or might be, for the first 19 years of your life. Or in my boyfriend's case, the first 24 years of your life. But let me assure you, it's hell. And once you're outta there you don't wanna go back. That's why, for me anyway, your initial comments and your later justifications of those comments have been difficult. I'm sure (I hope) you didn't mean it, but it sounded to me like an invitation to return to the closet. And I'm not going back there for anyone. I know some people have suggested you quit the list for good - I don't think that's right or fair - it's certainly not very polite. But do you understand why passions are raised when you express opinions like these? For many of us, they do not appear as the innocent 'hey let's talk about Joni' comments you may feel them to be. They are read as comments with a sinister, censorious agenda. Yours Paul X ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:47:38 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Song To A Seagull In a message dated 2/8/99 9:34:12 PM Central Standard Time, messling@enter.net writes: << Yes! Joni's earliest album uses an "older" sounding voice. I think in Clouds and especially in LOTC, she was artificially squeaking her voice up and ironing out all the vibrato in an effort to sound more youthful, or more contemporary, anyway. >> I picked up STAS late in the game and expected it to sound like those other two as well...boy was I surprised when I heard her sing (from "I Had A King)"Brown" in that near-baritone! It's almost like she did Clouds and LOTC (though I love them both) in a way that she thought people wanted her to sound and not her natural voice... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:09:35 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Joni's friendships old loves (XJC) <> I sure hope Joni didn't decide to check out the JMDL tonight because we should all know how she feels about this subject. After all, it was the RS "Our Lady of Rock" article that drove her to hejira from popdom. Not that I'm complaining! Since we're endulging wild rumors, I have a question: Was Don Alias Joni's lover, and was this the real motivation behind the star-breaker machinery? ;~@ E.T. NP: Witches' Rave, Jeff Buckley ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:26:36 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: RE: public acceptance... (vljc) NJC (vljc) is an understatement and slips right by NJC filters. Not that I have one! Actually I like sex, religion & politics a hell of a lot more than personal feuds. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:06:55 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - Jonatha Brooke In a message dated 2/8/99 3:01:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, sp@olympus.net writes: << But if you're just getting started listening to her I'd recommend "Plumb," followed by "Ten Cent Wings. >> I have been playing Ten Cent Wings for the past 6 months and am enjoying it SO much, I haven't had a chance to really listen to Plumb yet. She is fantastic- Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:19:03 -0500 From: patrick leader Subject: RE: Song To A Seagull (and clouds) i've only owned stas for five years. it took a while to grow on my, because: the melodies are odd, not obvious. i'd listened to blue, c&s, hejira, chalkmark, night ride home, hissing shadows and light so many times; stas was completely different. the melodies were hard for me to grasp. the voice is so clear and pure, just a beautiful instrument. some of the lyrics struck me as a little hippy-dippy, overly flowery in a very 60s way, and she's said the same many times. but it sure was a gorgeous voice. she sounds youngest to me there, most like a golden-haired 60s songbird, which is exactly how i perceived her at the time. i do think cactus tree is the most accomplished vocal and song on the album, which i love from beginning to end now. i do hear the difference on clouds that bob and others mention; maybe a less natural voice, but i see it as a very positive development. she's really trying to sing characters, change herself from song to song. i think it works, mostly, gives clouds some depth it might lack otherwise. and i bet she'd say that singing different characters was a major source of growth in her art; she's certainly spoken of that. jfp - stas ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:08:33 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: newbies and bouncing In a message dated 2/8/99 11:18:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com writes: << Is the adjective for newbie "newbile" >> I don't know, but it's got to be better than some of the old bile I've been reading on this list lately! ;>) Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:07:46 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ > Leaving a cult is very very difficult and > extremely frightening. it takes much courage. I know-I have been there. That's my point. Leaving a brainwashing cult is frightening, difficult.... but being physically imprisoned your whole life IS different. It's like calling alcoholism a disease rather than an addiction. Tell it to someone with an actual terminal disease. They would gladly trade their disease for one where the cure is to discontinue use of a certain liquid. And I'm sure prisoners would trade their walls for psychological ones, where there is at least a chance of realizing the emperor has no clothes. No, it's not that simple, but it's not the same either. This does not cancel the well stated points made by Kakki and Don, and catman. RR ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #68 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. 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