From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #67 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, February 8 1999 Volume 04 : Number 067 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Dinner & Joni [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons)] Re: More on Joni painting [dsk ] You know you're a Joni fan, reprise [dsk ] Borderline - a not-so-new ph-balanced shampoo [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: More on Joni painting [catman ] Re: driving [catman ] Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [catman ] Re: Joni and James [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: joni) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [catman ] Re[2]: driving NJC [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Re[2]: driving NJC ["M & C Urbanski" ] Chieftains (was Magdelen) NJC [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Irony [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Gershwin's World ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: driving ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript ["Kakki" ] Re: driving with JC [catman ] Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [catman ] Addendum to JM: Painting With Words And Music [Wally Breese ] Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [philipf@tinet.ie] RE: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: noooooooJC! [RickieLee1@aol.com] RE: D.C. JMDL (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] A Question and A Thank-You ["Don Rowe" ] NJC - Jonatha Brooke [Scott Price ] Song To A Seagull [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Damn-o-reetie [FredNow@aol.com] RE: Song To A Seagull [Michael Yarbrough ] Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ [Randy Remote ] Re: Joni and the Chieftains ["Kakki" ] Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ ["Don Rowe" ] Re: Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ ["Kakki" ] Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ [MDESTE1@aol.com] Mark in LA [Steve Dulson ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:46:32 -0800 (PST) From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons) Subject: Dinner & Joni Fresh salmon was frying tonite (actually we barbequed it), baby carrots, baked potatoes, and sauted mushrooms and onions as the sun was going down ( well actually that's a stretch too, since we live in the Pacific NW...rain and clouds...again.) The favorite albums have come up again and I'd have to say that DWRD is one that really sucked me in too. But it's been said that many of us go in cycles as to what's the fav of Joni's albums is at any given time. I started with C&S and didn't get another for a fair enough period of time to absorb it properly. Back tracked to Blue, FTR, LOTC, MOA in a symilar fashion...allowing time to absorb each. But I made the mistake of buying both STAS & Clouds on the same day. Neither of those connected with me the way the rest have because it was almost like Joni overload. Those are probably the only two that have yet to make it into a fav cycle for me at one time or another. I can say TI holds a very special place in my heart. It was probably what I didn't even realize I was going through yet, but it took me over two weeks before I could listen to TI through in one sitting. The passion and disgust in Joni's voice when she says "breathtaking ignorance" in Job's Sad Song strikes a nerve everythime I hear it. It's become my most overused phrase. (unfortunately, it's so easy to find a place to use it these days in the states) All for now. Later, Penny ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:08:09 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: More on Joni painting Scott and Jody wrote: > > It's not uncommon for an artist to pay tribute to another artist by incorporating a renowned piece into their own work Credit isn't necessary if the original is widely recognized. It's assumed the viewer knows the original was modified, perhaps in a parody or in a different genre.(if not a tribute)< Credit is usually given though, as in "Title (after ________)". Even supreme egotist Salvador Dali did that when he modified the Mona Lisa. The painting Joni copied isn't that well known; even she (or her art director) labeled it as after Rosetti (same period; very different guys), and there's no indication in the CD cover that she was not the originator of the image. (I couldn't believe it when I first got the CD - -- spent what felt like hours looking through every tiny bit of print for the artist's name.) And, even though the automatic 75-year copyright for visual images is no longer in effect, it is at the least not showing any respect for another artist. Can you imagine Janet Jackson singing parts of Big Yellow Taxi and not putting Joni's name anywhere on the CD or its cover? Well, OK, maybe singers 100 years from now will do that, but still...it's a ripoff. Terry wrote: ... Joni has the technique down flat. Now if she could only find her own style. I know we've gone over this before and I've gotten some flack, but I maintain that her work is just not solid. I agree with you, Terry, and unless I'm reading constantly about Joni saying she's a painter first or JMDLers saying she's the greatest artist ever, I don't give it much attention. I think of Joni as a commercial artist making nice pictures that help sell her music. They're pleasing, but don't seem to come out of a deep need to express herself. She just seems to like doing it, and there is a sensuality to painting that's very enjoyable. Her music, on the other hand, comes from her complex, unique inner being. A quote from Ranier Maria Rilke is tickling my brain, can't get it exactly, but it's something to the effect that "good art is born of necessity". Joni needs to do her music; she wants to paint. That's how it seems to me anyway, based on listening to her music for almost 30 years and always being moved, hearing new sounds and thinking new ideas when I hear even her early music. I look at her artwork, and "it's nice." I do, though, hope to see her paintings "in person" some day, knowing that reproductions can never do full justice to artwork. Maybe then my opinion will change. Debra Shea P.S. I'm not looking for a fight about this; just sharing some thoughts. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 05:00:47 -0400 From: dsk Subject: You know you're a Joni fan, reprise evian wrote: > Tonight, I made stew (I cook good omlettes and > stews....), a salad, ... This was a thread from a while ago (one of my favorites), but don't remember this one: You know you're a diehard Joni fan when you have to sing, hum or, if it's really late at night, like right now, only hear in your head Joni singing the rest of the song after reading only a short phrase. ...good omelettes and stews . . . and I might have stayed there with him but my heart cried out for youuuu Oh Califor-orn-nia Ca a a a li FORN ya I'm coming home, (join in y'all) even if you haven't listened to that particular song in a long time. DS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:09:28 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Borderline - a not-so-new ph-balanced shampoo Someone already brought up Borderline in the context of all the discussion of NJC or not. If everyone would listen to this song every day for the next week, I'm sure they would decide against subjecting the JMDL to further posts along the lines of "I'm right and you're wrong!", "I wasn't being insulting, but you certainly were!". I like Patrick and I like Pat Henry. I think both of them have a lot to offer the list and I would not like to see either of them take their marbles and go play somewhere else. I really don't want to take sides and I really dislike being confronted every day with bickering. It is unpleasant and makes me feel uncomfortable. Can you two please try to make peace with each other? Marian Vienna "Every bristling shaft of pride Church or nation Team or tribe Every notion we subscribe to Is just a borderline Good or bad we think we know As if thinking makes things so! All convictions grow along a borderline" Borderline - JM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:40:58 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: More on Joni painting I know nothing about art-onlt what I like and don't. When TI was due in 94, Tower had a big poster campaign for it using the cover painting. I loved the pic and even ignorant me(about art) knew that it was a Van Gogh look a like. I find it funny and it is the only Joni pic I like. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:41:36 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: driving > I'd say from my experience, that men take their testosterone > too seriously when they get behind the wheel! I have driven in a very congested city and out on the motorways for 12 years. I drive at least 250 miles a week. I agree with you here Marilyn. I find it embarrassing to hear men slate women drivers when their own is so poor!bw colin > > > Marilyn - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:43:03 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript Kakki wrote: > Very chilling transcript, simon. I'd never imagined such things could go on > in this century in a fairly modern country until I listened to Joni's song. > Now I have even more insight into why my Irish American family for three > generations resisted sending its children to Catholic schools. The general > opinion was always that they were sometimes appalled by some of the notions > of the imported Irish nuns who taught in them. In the late 60's early 70's, I was taught in part by Catholic nuns. One of the things we were taught was that a yoiung woman need never menstruate if she kept her thoughts clean!!!! (and i mean the 60's and 70's of THIS century)And the Magdelane Laundires situation only recently changed. I know in the 7's that 'fallen' Irish girls were still sent away. > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:49:46 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: More on Joni painting (SJC) > This is how many people develop "their own" style - by trying on another's > approach, and adapting it. Used to be it was THE way to train; to study the > "old masters" - (snip) . But how're you going to know whether or > not something's really right for you unless you try it on? (snip) >but in a vulnerable way - presenting her process of > experimentation and discovery in public - maybe she thinks others will find > the approach useful. I agree that copying is a useful approach to learning but you need to take what you've learned and make it your own. My painting professor put this project to us: "take your favorite artist and copy a painting of his/hers. If that artist was alive today what would they be doing? how would their art have evolved? Make a piece of art showing the evolution. Next, dress up as that artist and make a presentation of your pervious and current style." My favorite artist is Kandinsky and even though my art is abstract and he was a major influence on me...you can not call me a copy cat! Let me tell you...My style took a giant leap! And it's mine! - ----------Miss Mitchell if you're tuned in, I want you to do this class assignment! You'll be amazed! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:55:11 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Joni and James Re : Blue written about JT. I read somewhere that Blue was about the singer David Blue. She also sang on his record. Philip NP Charlie Rich - I get high ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:57:01 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript - -----Original Message----- From: Kakki >Very chilling transcript, simon. I'd never imagined such things could go on >in this century in a fairly modern country until I listened to Joni's song. I agree totally, cruelty and inhumanity don't know geographic boundaries. I mean look what happened in fairly modern places like certain states in the USA in this century. Philip NP Charlie Rich - Pictures and Paintings ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:25:28 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: joni) And I *like* Ray's Dad's Cadillac! It's fun! And > some of the lyrics are incredibly clever. > > Mark in Seattle Funny, since I've been taking statistics, I've been singing "Zero, I'm a dunce I'm a decimal in his class Zero,... I just can't put the numbers in their place... when it comes to mathematics I got static in the attic... No sir, NOTHIN'S CLEAR!" Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:18:36 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript - -----Original Message----- From: catman > I know in the 7's that >'fallen' Irish girls were still sent away. with respect Colin, that's just wrong. My sister became an unmarried mother at that time. I presume my parents briefly considered what others might think. But I'm sure they never considered sending her "away". In fact I doubt if they even knew that Magdelan launderies even existed. Philip NP Charlie Rich - feel like going home > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:33:10 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript I didn't mean to imply that ALL Irish girls were sent away but I know for a fact that some were. I know sevral thru something I am involved in. They could of course be lying but I don't see why they would. bw colin philipf@tinet.ie wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: catman > > > I know in the 7's that > >'fallen' Irish girls were still sent away. > > with respect Colin, that's just wrong. My sister became an unmarried > mother at that time. I presume my parents briefly considered what > others might think. But I'm sure they never considered sending her > "away". In fact I doubt if they even knew that Magdelan launderies > even existed. > > Philip > NP Charlie Rich - feel like going home > > > - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:38:07 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Irony Colin writes: <> Colin, "Songs to Aging Children Come", "Man From Mars", "Not to Blame", all are JM songs which I think have sad lyrics and sound "sad" as well. Of course, what sounds melancholy to one may sound uplifting to another...I think she's way above writing music simply to suit the flavor of the lyric, sometimes the music comes first also. One of the facets of her genius is that you can count on exciting things to happen both musically and lyrically, as opposed to 'hot licks and rhetoric'. Those who aren't drawn in or interested in what she's saying with words can always just enjoy her 'sound'... Bob NP: Wayne Toups "Zydecajun Train" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:44:32 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Welcome Terri Terri said: <> Terri, welcome to the list, there's a lot of "newbies" recently so there's probably a lot of folks who haven't had the chance yet to share their thoughts - those of us that have can jump back in or just sit back and "listen", so don't worry - post away! <> Shine on, you crazy diamond! Bob in S. Carolina ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:55:51 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: driving with JC - ---------- > From: catman > To: jmdl > Subject: driving > Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 8:09 PM > > instead of all this arguing could we perhaps discuss something inocuous > like whether or not men are better drivers than women? OK people, I should have looked up the word "innocuous" before I posted! I blew this thread! Honestly, therapy is a great thing, it helped me through this! If I can possibly lighten it up.... Sometimes change comes at you like a broadside accident! There is chaos to the order random things you can't prevent... You see my life is nothing but ONE BIG JONI song! I think she follows me around or at least predicts my future!!!!! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:55:49 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: driving NJC Colin suggested: > instead of all this arguing could we perhaps discuss something inocuous > like whether or not men are better drivers than women? Then Marilyn added: <> Marilyn, This was very sad to read - I'm sorry this happened to you. Many folks, probably more men than women, live what they feel is a powerless life and when they get behind the wheel it's the one chance they have to be in charge. Speaking for myself, I've been driving for about 25 years with not the first ticket or accident ( I have been hit, but not my fault). I credit my love of music, the slower I drive the more time I get to spend in my car with all my favorite tunes spinning, and I can sing as loud as I want! :~) Plus, like RainMan, "I'm a very good driver"... Three things which are very easy to do and should be very difficult: 1. Get Married 2. Have Children 3. Get a Driver's License Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:00:11 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Re[2]: driving NJC > I credit my love of music, the slower I drive > the more time I get to spend in my car with all my favorite tunes > spinning, and I can sing as loud as I want! :~) > > Plus, like RainMan, "I'm a very good driver"... > > Three things which are very easy to do and should be very difficult: > 1. Get Married > 2. Have Children > 3. Get a Driver's License Bob That's the way I like to drive too! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:00:15 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Chieftains (was Magdelen) NJC Kakki konfessed: <> Kakki, It's hard to go wrong with the Chieftains - "The Long Black Veil" is a couple of years old now but I still play it a lot; some great collaborations with Sinead, Sting, The Rolling Stones, Van M, Ry Cooder, etc. They're also fascinating and fun to catch in live performance. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:17:22 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Irony In a message dated 2/8/99 9:49:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << Songs to Aging Children Come", "Man From Mars", "Not to Blame", all are JM songs which I think have sad lyrics and sound "sad" as well. >> "Last Time I Saw Richard" fits this category as well, IMO. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:54:12 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: Gershwin's World simon@icu.com schrieb: > > JM: Were you in the room when JONI MITCHELL was recording? > > HH: Yeah, we were live. > > JM: Her voice gets to some really surprising places. > > HH: It sure does. If you hadn't seen her name on the listings, you > never would have guessed she's on the record. Noboby guessed it. > How could they? She...blew...my...mind. She had recently sung > an Ellington song with an orchestra on some show in Canada, and > when she finished she said she was on cloud nine. Said that it > stimulated the original juices she had for the old standards that > she did before she got into folk music. > Thanks for sharing, simon. Gershwin's World is a breathtakingly beautiful album -- not just because of Joni's marvelous contributions -- ALL pieces are just fabulous. My favorite one is "It Ain't Necessarily So" -- boy does it swing! Clearly 1998's best album IMO. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:25:25 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: driving M & C Urbanski wrote: > My brother-in-law is a major asshole behind the wheel...one of those road > rage people. I'd say from my experience, that men take their testosterone > too seriously when they get behind the wheel! > Yes, but according to recent studies conducted here in Germany, women are quickly catching up in this area, too! Sometimes, it seems as if the course of female emancipation necessarily included repeating all the mistakes and follies men make and have... Last week, I was nearly wiped off the Autobahn by a cute-looking but fiercely grinning blonde in a BMW 850 going at about 140 mph, even though the road was wet. "Her husband's make-up for bad sex/no sex" was my first thought. "Sure drives that way, too". Of course, I immediately noticed how politically incorrect this was and went "hmmm...maybe she's the top CEO of some company rushing ahead to make a business appointment." So the conclusion was that bad sex/no sex was involved either way... :-) Winfried, who BTW drives a sexually unsuspicious (but very unpatriotic) Subaru Impreza ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:02:32 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript Philip wrote: >I agree totally, cruelty and inhumanity don't know geographic >boundaries. Nor religious boundaries, I might add. I think of certain cults which are allowed to flourish under the protection of relgious freedom in the U.S. who prey on vulnerable people, bilk them of most of their financial means and "guilt" them into abandoning much of their individuality and independent thought in the name of God. I've known a few people who have been swept up in them. One gave up all her inheritance and left a promising future to literally go wash windows in the name of the church founder and has been lost from her family and friends for 25 years now. In another "church", which claims to be the only "true Christian" sect, all unmarried women are *expected* to babysit and clean house for the church *elders* on a weekly basis, for no recompense. They are also basically told who they can date and can only live and associate with other church members. This particular group is flourishing in L.A. and the rest of the world right now. Is this much different then the Magdalen Laundries? Not in my book. >I mean look what happened in fairly modern places like certain states in the USA in this century. It's still happening in the USA, but is so outside the realm of most peoples' experience, it's pretty hard to know about until it is exposed. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:11:07 EST From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: Re: driving/NJC Definitely! In a message dated 99-02-07 20:31:27 EST, you write: << At 01:09 AM 2/8/99 +0000, you wrote: >instead of all this arguing could we perhaps discuss something inocuous >like whether or not men are better drivers than women? > >;-) Now you've done it! Open a big can o' worms, will you!? Gee, do they have to have a car?? ;-D >> Oh, here's a subject that I just have to respond on... With cars women win. Without cars, I am quite partial to men drivers. Am I bad or what? Michele in New Orleans ...I'm traveling in some vehicle... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:20:37 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript Kakki said: << In another "church", which claims to be the only "true Christian" sect, all unmarried women are *expected* to babysit and clean house for the church *elders* on a weekly basis, for no recompense. They are also basically told who they can date and can only live and associate with other church members. >> Boy, this sounds like the Southern Baptists, except you have to add that they spend at least one afternoon/week with some gruesome sign outside the women's clinic... Bob, not a Southern Baptist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:31:45 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: driving Win-we have idiots like that here too. 70mph in thick fog! and whilst I do come across the occassional woman in a fancy car driving like a dickhead, I still say men are by far the worst drivers. Total idiots. They drive like the make love-fast and with no consideration for anyone else. Of course I am being quite general here. i am sure not all men are same;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:33:41 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: driving with JC M & C Urbanski wrote: > ---------- > > From: catman > > To: jmdl > > Subject: driving > > Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 8:09 PM > > > > instead of all this arguing could we perhaps discuss something inocuous > > like whether or not men are better drivers than women? > > OK people, I should have looked up the word "innocuous" before I posted! I > blew this thread! Actually Marilyn-it was meant to be a joke and not a thread! A discussion about men vs women drivers (imo) seemed very like to get heated.i guess that joke just fell fell flat! > Honestly, therapy is a great thing, it helped me > through this! > > If I can possibly lighten it up.... > > Sometimes change comes at you > like a broadside accident! > There is chaos to the order > random things you can't prevent... > > You see my life is nothing but ONE BIG JONI song! I think she follows me > around or at least predicts my future!!!!! > Marilyn - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:35:00 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript Now now Bob and Kakki-this is looking suspiciously like a religious thread!!! No agendas here please. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 99 08:39:51 -0700 From: Wally Breese Subject: JM: Painting With Words And Music Hi everybody, Joni's new live-in-performance video, "Painting With Words And Music", is now scheduled to arrive in stores on the 16th of March. The tape runs 99 minutes, and for those of you who viewed the PPV broadcast of this show last November, this version is exactly the same as that broadcast. It'll be available in three nicely priced formats- VHS $19.98, DVD $24.99, and Laser Disc $29.99. I'm talking with distributors (Image Entertainment) right now about their sponsoring a Web contest for us and I'll have more news on that (and my opinions on the video's packaging) in a few days. Later, Wally Breese The Joni Mitchell Homepage http://www.JoniMitchell.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 99 08:41:51 -0700 From: Wally Breese Subject: Addendum to JM: Painting With Words And Music Hi, I forgot to mention that you can have a look at the video's cover at this address: http://www.jonimitchell.com/upcoming2.html Later, Wally Breese The Joni Mitchell Homepage http://www.JoniMitchell.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:56:37 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: noooooooJC! azeem, thank you for your thoughtful and very well stated response... I certainly didn't mean to *be* concescending and I'm actually surprised if I'm taken that way as most people I've encountered on the list appear to be intelligent... and, I assumed, self secure... I guess this is what leads to people saying I'm 'insulting' them... but I'm not! even in this example you point out, they are *assuming* that I mean something I didn't actually say and taking offense at that. ie: I say something about "sincere" but "innocent victims" and people read into it that 'he thinks we're stupid' which is not true... I on the other hand 'assume' that I'm talking to people who can think and intentionally *don't* patronize by being very frank and direct. apparently these opposing assumptions add up to disaster... *L* a couple people have mentioned the term 'sub-text' to me, which I am not familiar with but which I can sort of figure out... azeem, perhaps I am not so sophisticated and I am certainly blunt... if that is offensive to people there's not much I can do about it. see, I don't have any 'sub-text'... it's all out front, like it or not. quite a few have posted similar statements to yours: ie: " (that is an assumption, albeit understandable... but wrong) >towards "sincere" but "innocent victims". Can't you see how condescending >this is?" (no, I really can't... because I didn't mean what was assumed... I meant only what I said) I also meant what I said, even if I didn't state it well, that people have agendas... including even Joni fans! I am at fault in that I didn't explain myself well, I guess, but what I mean by that is that some people have 'a cause' and some people don't necessarily... eg: some people want to convert others into joniphiles and some are quite content to just enjoy her... not to cast a negative judgement on either, you understand... I have had causes and agendas before and if a person does have a cause, it is jut naturally part of who they are and of course they take it with them wherever they go... now if a person has *that* (Joni evangelist) agenda, this list is the place for them to express it... on the other hand if a person has a political, sexual or religious 'cause' or agenda, well... I've said it all before... the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not saying one thing and inferring another in the process... eg: when have I ever said I thought anyone was 'feeble-minded'??? pardon me, azeem, but that came from you... not me. do you see what I mean? sometimes I overexplain, trying to make myself clear... sorry... in the last part of your post you say: 'Fine, if you don't like reading about gay issues or politics, say so - but don't assume that all of us agree with you'... souldn't that same logic be applied somewhat to the people who take to the soapbox on these NJC issues as well? I mean the part about '...don't assume that all of us agree with you'... also, you make the point that 'a lot of people like the NJC stuff'... my point is that there are a lot better places to get into these issues... if you and I wandered into a mutually agreeable sexual, religious or political forum on a regular basis and discussed Joni's music much of the time, what do you think would be the reaction? something to think about, maybe? at any rate thank you again for taking the time to express your opinions and, even though I'm still beating my drum, I *have* read all of what you said and you *do* have some good points which I *will* think about and consider. *S* take care, pat - -- >Well Pat, I have read and enjoyed many of your posts, and I have to say I have >seldom disagreed with ANYBODY on this list as much as I do with you on this >one. For a start there is the sheer effrontery of your patronising attitude >towards "sincere" but "innocent victims". Can't you see how condescending >this is? And that is quite irrespective of whether you are "right" or "wrong" >- although you are, for my money, way, way off track. I don't want to start >throwing personal insults around, so I will just say that a statement like >"it's happened before and it will happen again because I happen to be right!" >might be construed as somewhat conceited. > >I completely disagree that anybody is using this list inappropriately to >further their own agendas, and I believe that it's possible to get things out >of proportion. Fine, if you don't like reading about gay issues or politics, >say so - but don't assume that all of us agree with you, or that we are so >feeble minded that we can be "scammed" by these sinister people. > >Can't you just delete the NJC stuff and acknowledge {which you sort of do, >very grudgingly) what a balanced view would surely reveal - namely that a lot >of people like the NJC stuff, and you don't have to be into US politics and be >gay to appreciate some of the stuff. To me, it's all about whether people >have got something worth saying and can say it with either wit, or brevity, or >lyricism, or insight, or clarity, whatever. > >There, glad to get that off my chest... > >Azeem in London > Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:48:57 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript On a lighter note. I saw Paddy Maloney from the Chieftains on television last week talking about Joni's contribution. I have to smile every time I see that man. He said she wrote the song about twenty years ago after reading about some weird nuns or something in a magazine but she never got around to recording it herself. He said he wrote some church like music to go with it. Philip NP DJ Skitz - Where my mind is at ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:24:26 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC) Kakki wrote about various black activist musicians: <<>> That certainly is a possibility, but the possibility that these artists would feel uncomfortable participating in such a project makes me feel only slightly better than if they hadn't been asked at all. I also find it doubtful that KRS-One, for example, would turn down any opportunity to spread his message. In reality it becomes chicken-egg: do the black artists feel uncomfortable because the focus seems narrow, or does the focus seem narrow because the black artists feel uncomfortable? <<>> Excellent suggestion, which I will take. I hate to be a gadfly (well, no I don't ;-) ), but it is my opinion that these questions *must* be asked constantly if we are ever to move beyond our profound divisions. In my opinion, no discussion of activism (and certainly no discussion of activism's relationship with music) is complete without a discussion of the civil rights movement. Period. The film may indeed be more complete than is currently being presented, but that begs another question: why does the marketing overlook any black musicians who *are* participating? I'm not jumping on Crosby (yet), just asking some questions. When the film's out, *then* I'll jump on Crosby. ;-) - --Michael NP: Joan Armatrading, _Greatest Hits_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:45:16 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Irony In a message dated 2/8/99 9:49:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << Songs to Aging Children Come", "Man From Mars", "Not to Blame", all are JM songs which I think have sad lyrics and sound "sad" as well. >> "Last Time I Saw Richard" fits this category as well, IMO. Paul I True, Paul, which is why it seems so out of place when she speaks in the "Un-Joni-like" waitress voice on the MOA version with "drink up now, it's getting on time to close" - not a good song to inject that kind of humor into, I think the laughter she gets is more nervous laughter... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 18:58:08 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: driving (NJC) To raise the discussion on this topic to a scientific level, here are some brand-new statistics from the Swiss Federal Office for Statistics. They are rather embarassing for us men and pretty impressively back up what Marilyn and Colin were concluding from their everyday-experience. In Switzerland, statistically, 31 % of all men (one out of three!!) will receive a court sentence because of traffic violations at least once in their lives. The number for women is 6 %. Now these are serious violations like drunk driving etc. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:04:34 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: noooooooJC! In a message dated 2/8/99 8:59:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: << I certainly didn't mean to *be* concescending and I'm actually surprised if I'm taken that way as most people I've encountered on the list appear to be intelligent... and, I assumed, self secure... >> to quote another great songwriter: "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." if i may be so bold listers, i would suggest we drop this subject, as marian said. it isn't worth it. some of us are not capable of hearing what we sound like, or perhaps are just not willing to do so if they could. something i have probably been guilty of in my life and probably will be again. but at least i can own up to it. peace, ric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:11:12 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: D.C. JMDL (NJC) Resa wrote: <<>> Another D.C.er!!! You'll learn soon enough that D.C. has an astonishing collection of JMDL locals with heart, brains and (I daresay) looks for days. And when our friends from NYC come down, watch out!! Please keep in touch for the next D.C. gathering. (Speaking of which, it's been a while...) Always luv-luvin' the Joni Mitchell Internet COMMUNITY. (Just thought that word could use a revisitation given some recent threads.) - --Michael NP: R.E.M., _New Adventures in Hi-Fi_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:02:37 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: A Question and A Thank-You Sorry, that subject line is out of order. First, the big "thank-you" to all for steering away from flame-throwing and engaging in a fascinating discussion of Joni songs, relationships and "who's in what song." That's the kind of thing that put me on this list, so keep it up. Okay, now the question ... was reading the latest 'People' mag, most famous (or "in-")for the Chelsea Clinton cover story. So flipping through "Picks & Pans", I came across a review of Johnatha Brooke's latest album, and the review says something to the effect of "fans of Joni Mitchell will like her singing ..." So, jmdl, is this true? Should I drop coin on Ms. Brooke and her Joni-like singing? Or is this just another in a storied list of comparisons, most of which are empty? Thanks in advance. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:58:29 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: NJC - Jonatha Brooke At 11:02 AM 2/8/99 PST, Don Rowe wrote: >I came across a review of Johnatha Brooke's >latest album, and the review says something to the effect of "fans of >Joni Mitchell will like her singing ..." So, jmdl, is this true? Jonatha is the REAL thing. Great songwriter, fine lyricist, decent musician and awesome singer, Jonatha explores and incorporates bits and pieces from folk, rock, jazz, and pop and puts it all together into a wonderful blend. If I had to cite *one* thing that sets her apart from all the "latest Joni Mitchells" it's the creative use of dissonance in many of her songs. Most highly recommended is her first solo album, "Plumb." Her latest is "Jonatha Brooke Live" and it's a must for any Jonatha follower. But if you're just getting started listening to her I'd recommend "Plumb," followed by "Ten Cent Wings." Before going solo she teamed up with Jennifer Kimball to form "The Story" and they put out a couple of really special albums: "Grace in Gravity" and "Angel in the House" which you'll want to get next.... Scott, obviously gushing.... :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:59:50 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Song To A Seagull Terri wrote: > > My favorite album is STAS (I realize I am in the minority!) The first > > time I listened to it, I dreamt of the ocean that night. I know it may > > not be as rich and complex as other albums, but I love its beauty and > > simplicity. You'd be in the majority at my house; although I really can't pare down to a single favorite Joni album, STAS is always among the contenders (along with For The Roses and Hejira). And actually I feel that STAS is really not that musically simple, and in many ways is much more musically rich and complex than later albums; not necessarily in instrumentation and texture, which obviously gets denser and more complex in later work, but in the actual notes and chords themselves, the raw elements of the music. As I've written here more than twice, this is one of my big problems with her compositions after DJRD, they're just not as musically interesting to me on that elemental level. STAS displays a profound intuitive gift for musical composition and an inspired melodic/harmonic sensibility. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:04:26 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Damn-o-reetie In a message dated 2/7/99 3:59:44 AM, Thomas Ross wrote: >but leaven it with his > > These faces in the crowd: > petals on a wet, black bough. Tom, you omitted 3 words, which, in a poem with only 14 words, is more than 21 percent incomplete! (insert emoticon here) Here's the complete poem (one of my favorites), In a Station of the Metro, by Ezra Pound: The apparition of these faces in the crowd; Petals on a wet, black bough. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:13:26 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Song To A Seagull Fred wrote: <<< STAS displays a profound intuitive gift for musical composition and an inspired melodic/harmonic sensibility.>>> I agree. I'm not a diehard disciple of either _Clouds_ or _LOTC_, which at times sound over-precious to me, and lyrically STAS isn't as mature as later work, but I think many of its melodies are complex and almost otherworldly in their intervals. "I Had a King" especially comes to mind. I was also struck while listening to it a couple of weeks how much of today's Joni, right up through TTT, you could hear vocally in STAS but not in _Clouds_ or _LOTC_. - --Michael NP: Mary J. Blige, _Share My World_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:01:27 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ Kakki wrote: > > I think of certain cults which are > allowed to flourish under the protection of relgious freedom in the U.S. who > prey on vulnerable people, bilk them of most of their financial means and > "guilt" them into abandoning much of their individuality and independent > thought in the name of God. Sounds like every religion ever invented. You go on to talk about a strict cult and ask: > Is this > much different then the Magdalen Laundries? Not in my book. Yes it is different. They walked into their little prison of their own free will and can walk out when they want to, outgrow their need for authority figures to run their lives, etc. The laundry women were physically trapped all their lives. RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:00:26 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni and the Chieftains Philip wrote: >I saw Paddy Maloney from the Chieftains >on television last week talking about Joni's contribution. >He said he wrote some church like music to go with it. The accompaniment by the Chieftains sounds like very beautiful, but somewhat somber, traditional Irish music. I have to admit I never much liked the melody to the song until I heard this version. The Chieftains' participation greatly enhances the emotion in the song and makes it just gorgeous. I'm sure Joni is thrilled with it. The rest of the album is also quite spectacular. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:22:19 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ On the imprisonment of cults and the discussion of the literal Magdalen Laundry ... Randy writes in response to Kakki -- >Yes it is different. They walked into their little prison of their >own free will and can walk out when they want to, outgrow their need >for authority figures to run their lives, etc. The laundry women >were physically trapped all their lives. >RR > I'm going to have to hang my hat with Kakki on this one. The mental prison of a cult following is just as strong, if not far stronger than stone walls of any penitentiary. People do not "go there of free will" - -- they are intentionally deceived and eniticed by messages that sound very much like what they want to hear, albeit innocently at first. Then as the dogma and mantra of the cult language is reinforced, any semblance of remaining individuality is stripped away. Many times, the only escape is a physical intervention that we know as "deprogramming" - -- and even that doesn't work all the time. If you, as I have had to, ever live through this nightmare with someone you care about deeply -- you'll understand. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:16:00 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ Randy wrote: >You go on to talk about a strict cult and ask: > >> Is this >> much different then the Magdalen Laundries? Not in my book. > >Yes it is different. They walked into their little prison of their own free >will and can walk out when they want to, outgrow their need for authority >figures to run their lives, etc. The laundry women were physically trapped all >their lives. The similarities I see are: 1) Both groups of victims are put into the situation from a vulnerable position in their life 2) Both groups are taken advantage of in the name of God 3) Both groups, as women, are relegated to mindless, menial work and told what to do by their superiors 3) While the laundry women may have been physically trapped, I would consider several in today's cults also as prisoners of sorts because they psychologically trapped and live under a sort of "house arrest" with the other members constantly monitoring their actions and testing their loyalty. If they try to leave, tremendous pressure and veiled threats are made on them. Some have no where else to go, even if they do get the strength to leave, because they are either estranged from family and friends or without them. Yes there is a difference between living under the harsh conditions of the Magdalen Laundries, but psychologically, the conditions of people, especially women, roped into these cults are just as medieval when one strips away the modern veneer. I also wonder why the women in the Magdalen Laundries could not physically escape, despite reports of the sharded glass-topped walls. Why not just organize and take over the nuns? I think they could have escaped and would have, if not for the fact that they also felt they had no where else to go as "outcasts" in their family. Ultimately it is psychological imprisonment that victimizes both groups. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:22:04 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ All these arguments and points fail to take into account a very obvious fact. Without spending a long time on a more detailed answer. Ireland adnother places in the British Isles end up with very large uneducated families. VERY uneducated. In some cases kids from these families have very low IQ's and almost no education. All the things you guys are referencing ie cults and what amounts to reform school type places arent "at will" places for many reasons. there were and are many "forces" keeping people in these places. No law keeps a woman with a wife beater yet inexplicably many stay. Its all a case of reference points. Where would the supposed escapees go? To a family which placed them there in the first place ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:34:42 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Mark in LA Mark in Seattle wrote: >After reading the digests of the past week it looks like there were storms on >the list.... For anybody who doubts it, let me tell you that the spirit of >fellowship & good will is still alive in JMDL land. Last Sunday I saw >it first hand and I am here to testify! Can I get a witness? Amen, brother! Good will, and fellowship indeed. May there be many more such gatherings in our future. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #67 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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