From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #67
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Monday, February 8 1999 Volume 04 : Number 067
The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes
by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery
username: jimdle password: siquomb
-------
The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Dinner & Joni [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons)]
Re: More on Joni painting [dsk ]
You know you're a Joni fan, reprise [dsk ]
Borderline - a not-so-new ph-balanced shampoo [M.Russell@iaea.org]
Re: More on Joni painting [catman ]
Re: driving [catman ]
Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [catman ]
Re: Joni and James [philipf@tinet.ie]
Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [philipf@tinet.ie]
Re: joni) ["M & C Urbanski" ]
Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [philipf@tinet.ie]
Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [catman ]
Re[2]: driving NJC [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re: Re[2]: driving NJC ["M & C Urbanski" ]
Chieftains (was Magdelen) NJC [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re: Irony [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
Re: Gershwin's World ["Winfried Hühn" ]
Re: driving ["Winfried Hühn" ]
Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript ["Kakki" ]
Re: driving with JC [catman ]
Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [catman ]
Addendum to JM: Painting With Words And Music [Wally Breese ]
Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [philipf@tinet.ie]
RE: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ]
Re: noooooooJC! [RickieLee1@aol.com]
RE: D.C. JMDL (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ]
A Question and A Thank-You ["Don Rowe" ]
NJC - Jonatha Brooke [Scott Price ]
Song To A Seagull [FredNow@aol.com]
Re: Damn-o-reetie [FredNow@aol.com]
RE: Song To A Seagull [Michael Yarbrough ]
Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ [Randy Remote ]
Re: Joni and the Chieftains ["Kakki" ]
Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ ["Don Rowe" ]
Re: Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ ["Kakki" ]
Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~ [MDESTE1@aol.com]
Mark in LA [Steve Dulson ]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:46:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons)
Subject: Dinner & Joni
Fresh salmon was frying tonite (actually we barbequed it), baby
carrots, baked potatoes, and sauted mushrooms and onions as the sun was
going down ( well actually that's a stretch too, since we live in the
Pacific NW...rain and clouds...again.)
The favorite albums have come up again and I'd have to say that DWRD
is one that really sucked me in too. But it's been said that many of us
go in cycles as to what's the fav of Joni's albums is at any given time.
I started with C&S and didn't get another for a fair enough period of
time to absorb it properly. Back tracked to Blue, FTR, LOTC, MOA in a
symilar fashion...allowing time to absorb each. But I made the mistake
of buying both STAS & Clouds on the same day. Neither of those
connected with me the way the rest have because it was almost like Joni
overload. Those are probably the only two that have yet to make it into
a fav cycle for me at one time or another. I can say TI holds a very
special place in my heart. It was probably what I didn't even realize I
was going through yet, but it took me over two weeks before I could
listen to TI through in one sitting. The passion and disgust in Joni's
voice when she says "breathtaking ignorance" in Job's Sad Song strikes a
nerve everythime I hear it. It's become my most overused phrase.
(unfortunately, it's so easy to find a place to use it these days in the
states)
All for now.
Later,
Penny
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:08:09 -0400
From: dsk
Subject: Re: More on Joni painting
Scott and Jody wrote:
>
> It's not uncommon for an artist to pay tribute to another artist by incorporating a renowned piece into their own work Credit isn't necessary if the original is widely recognized. It's assumed the viewer knows the original was modified, perhaps in a parody or in a different genre.(if not a tribute)<
Credit is usually given though, as in "Title (after ________)". Even
supreme egotist Salvador Dali did that when he modified the Mona Lisa.
The painting Joni copied isn't that well known; even she (or her art
director) labeled it as after Rosetti (same period; very different
guys), and there's no indication in the CD cover that she was not the
originator of the image. (I couldn't believe it when I first got the CD
- -- spent what felt like hours looking through every tiny bit of print
for the artist's name.) And, even though the automatic 75-year copyright
for visual images is no longer in effect, it is at the least not showing
any respect for another artist.
Can you imagine Janet Jackson singing parts of Big Yellow Taxi and not
putting Joni's name anywhere on the CD or its cover? Well, OK, maybe
singers 100 years from now will do that, but still...it's a ripoff.
Terry wrote:
... Joni has the technique down flat. Now if she could only find her own
style. I know we've gone over this before and I've gotten some flack,
but I maintain that her work is just not solid.
I agree with you, Terry, and unless I'm reading constantly about Joni
saying she's a painter first or JMDLers saying she's the greatest artist
ever, I don't give it much attention. I think of Joni as a commercial
artist making nice pictures that help sell her music. They're pleasing,
but don't seem to come out of a deep need to express herself. She just
seems to like doing it, and there is a sensuality to painting that's
very enjoyable. Her music, on the other hand, comes from her complex,
unique inner being. A quote from Ranier Maria Rilke is tickling my
brain, can't get it exactly, but it's something to the effect that "good
art is born of necessity". Joni needs to do her music; she wants to
paint. That's how it seems to me anyway, based on listening to her music
for almost 30 years and always being moved, hearing new sounds and
thinking new ideas when I hear even her early music. I look at her
artwork, and "it's nice." I do, though, hope to see her paintings "in
person" some day, knowing that reproductions can never do full justice
to artwork. Maybe then my opinion will change.
Debra Shea
P.S. I'm not looking for a fight about this; just sharing some thoughts.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 05:00:47 -0400
From: dsk
Subject: You know you're a Joni fan, reprise
evian wrote:
>
Tonight, I made stew (I cook good omlettes and
> stews....), a salad, ...
This was a thread from a while ago (one of my favorites), but don't
remember this one: You know you're a diehard Joni fan when you have to
sing, hum or, if it's really late at night, like right now, only hear in
your head Joni singing the rest of the song after reading only a short
phrase.
...good omelettes and stews . . . and I might have stayed there with him
but my heart cried out for youuuu Oh Califor-orn-nia Ca a a a li FORN ya
I'm coming home, (join in y'all)
even if you haven't listened to that particular song in a long time.
DS
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:09:28 +0100
From: M.Russell@iaea.org
Subject: Borderline - a not-so-new ph-balanced shampoo
Someone already brought up Borderline in the context of all the discussion
of NJC or not. If everyone would listen to this song every day for the next
week, I'm sure they would decide against subjecting the JMDL to further
posts along the lines of "I'm right and you're wrong!", "I wasn't being
insulting, but you certainly were!".
I like Patrick and I like Pat Henry. I think both of them have a lot to
offer the list and I would not like to see either of them take their marbles
and go play somewhere else. I really don't want to take sides and I really
dislike being confronted every day with bickering. It is unpleasant and
makes me feel uncomfortable. Can you two please try to make peace with each
other?
Marian
Vienna
"Every bristling shaft of pride
Church or nation
Team or tribe
Every notion we subscribe to
Is just a borderline
Good or bad we think we know
As if thinking makes things so!
All convictions grow along a borderline"
Borderline - JM
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:40:58 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: More on Joni painting
I know nothing about art-onlt what I like and don't.
When TI was due in 94, Tower had a big poster campaign for it using the cover
painting. I loved the pic and even ignorant me(about art) knew that it was a Van
Gogh look a like. I find it funny and it is the only Joni pic I like.
bw
colin
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:41:36 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: driving
> I'd say from my experience, that men take their testosterone
> too seriously when they get behind the wheel!
I have driven in a very congested city and out on the motorways for 12 years. I
drive at least 250 miles a week. I agree with you here Marilyn. I find it
embarrassing to hear men slate women drivers when their own is so poor!bw
colin
>
>
> Marilyn
- --
CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:43:03 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript
Kakki wrote:
> Very chilling transcript, simon. I'd never imagined such things could go on
> in this century in a fairly modern country until I listened to Joni's song.
> Now I have even more insight into why my Irish American family for three
> generations resisted sending its children to Catholic schools. The general
> opinion was always that they were sometimes appalled by some of the notions
> of the imported Irish nuns who taught in them.
In the late 60's early 70's, I was taught in part by Catholic nuns. One of the
things we were taught was that a yoiung woman need never menstruate if she kept
her thoughts clean!!!! (and i mean the 60's and 70's of THIS century)And the
Magdelane Laundires situation only recently changed. I know in the 7's that
'fallen' Irish girls were still sent away.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:49:46 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Re: More on Joni painting (SJC)
> This is how many people develop "their own" style - by trying on
another's
> approach, and adapting it. Used to be it was THE way to train; to study
the
> "old masters" -
(snip)
. But how're you going to know whether or
> not something's really right for you unless you try it on?
(snip)
>but in a vulnerable way - presenting her process of
> experimentation and discovery in public - maybe she thinks others will
find
> the approach useful.
I agree that copying is a useful approach to learning but you need to take
what you've learned and make it your own. My painting professor put this
project to us:
"take your favorite artist and copy a painting of his/hers. If that artist
was alive today what would they be doing? how would their art have
evolved? Make a piece of art showing the evolution. Next, dress up as
that artist and make a presentation of your pervious and current style."
My favorite artist is Kandinsky and even though my art is abstract and he
was a major influence on me...you can not call me a copy cat! Let me tell
you...My style took a giant leap! And it's mine!
- ----------Miss Mitchell if you're tuned in, I want you to do this class
assignment! You'll be amazed!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:55:11 -0000
From: philipf@tinet.ie
Subject: Re: Joni and James
Re : Blue written about JT.
I read somewhere that Blue was about the singer David Blue.
She also sang on his record.
Philip
NP Charlie Rich - I get high
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:57:01 -0000
From: philipf@tinet.ie
Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript
- -----Original Message-----
From: Kakki
>Very chilling transcript, simon. I'd never imagined such things could go
on
>in this century in a fairly modern country until I listened to Joni's song.
I agree totally, cruelty and inhumanity don't know geographic
boundaries. I mean look what happened in fairly modern places
like certain states in the USA in this century.
Philip
NP Charlie Rich - Pictures and Paintings
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:25:28 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Re: joni)
And I *like* Ray's Dad's Cadillac! It's fun! And
> some of the lyrics are incredibly clever.
>
> Mark in Seattle
Funny, since I've been taking statistics, I've been singing
"Zero,
I'm a dunce
I'm a decimal in his class
Zero,...
I just can't put the numbers in their place...
when it comes to mathematics
I got static in the attic...
No sir, NOTHIN'S CLEAR!"
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:18:36 -0000
From: philipf@tinet.ie
Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript
- -----Original Message-----
From: catman
> I know in the 7's that
>'fallen' Irish girls were still sent away.
with respect Colin, that's just wrong. My sister became an unmarried
mother at that time. I presume my parents briefly considered what
others might think. But I'm sure they never considered sending her
"away". In fact I doubt if they even knew that Magdelan launderies
even existed.
Philip
NP Charlie Rich - feel like going home
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:33:10 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript
I didn't mean to imply that ALL Irish girls were sent away but I know for a
fact that some were. I know sevral thru something I am involved in. They
could of course be lying but I don't see why they would.
bw
colin
philipf@tinet.ie wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: catman
>
> > I know in the 7's that
> >'fallen' Irish girls were still sent away.
>
> with respect Colin, that's just wrong. My sister became an unmarried
> mother at that time. I presume my parents briefly considered what
> others might think. But I'm sure they never considered sending her
> "away". In fact I doubt if they even knew that Magdelan launderies
> even existed.
>
> Philip
> NP Charlie Rich - feel like going home
>
> >
- --
CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:38:07 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re: Irony
Colin writes:
<>
Colin,
"Songs to Aging Children Come", "Man From Mars", "Not to Blame", all
are JM songs which I think have sad lyrics and sound "sad" as well. Of
course, what sounds melancholy to one may sound uplifting to
another...I think she's way above writing music simply to suit the
flavor of the lyric, sometimes the music comes first also. One of the
facets of her genius is that you can count on exciting things to
happen both musically and lyrically, as opposed to 'hot licks and
rhetoric'. Those who aren't drawn in or interested in what she's
saying with words can always just enjoy her 'sound'...
Bob
NP: Wayne Toups "Zydecajun Train"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:44:32 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Welcome Terri
Terri said:
<>
Terri, welcome to the list, there's a lot of "newbies" recently so
there's probably a lot of folks who haven't had the chance yet to share
their thoughts - those of us that have can jump back in or just sit back
and "listen", so don't worry - post away!
<>
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Bob in S. Carolina
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:55:51 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Re: driving with JC
- ----------
> From: catman
> To: jmdl
> Subject: driving
> Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 8:09 PM
>
> instead of all this arguing could we perhaps discuss something inocuous
> like whether or not men are better drivers than women?
OK people, I should have looked up the word "innocuous" before I posted! I
blew this thread! Honestly, therapy is a great thing, it helped me
through this!
If I can possibly lighten it up....
Sometimes change comes at you
like a broadside accident!
There is chaos to the order
random things you can't prevent...
You see my life is nothing but ONE BIG JONI song! I think she follows me
around or at least predicts my future!!!!!
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:55:49 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: driving NJC
Colin suggested:
> instead of all this arguing could we perhaps discuss something inocuous
> like whether or not men are better drivers than women?
Then Marilyn added:
<>
Marilyn,
This was very sad to read - I'm sorry this happened to you. Many
folks, probably more men than women, live what they feel is a
powerless life and when they get behind the wheel it's the one chance
they have to be in charge. Speaking for myself, I've been driving for
about 25 years with not the first ticket or accident ( I have been
hit, but not my fault). I credit my love of music, the slower I drive
the more time I get to spend in my car with all my favorite tunes
spinning, and I can sing as loud as I want! :~)
Plus, like RainMan, "I'm a very good driver"...
Three things which are very easy to do and should be very difficult:
1. Get Married
2. Have Children
3. Get a Driver's License
Bob
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:00:11 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Re: Re[2]: driving NJC
> I credit my love of music, the slower I drive
> the more time I get to spend in my car with all my favorite tunes
> spinning, and I can sing as loud as I want! :~)
>
> Plus, like RainMan, "I'm a very good driver"...
>
> Three things which are very easy to do and should be very difficult:
> 1. Get Married
> 2. Have Children
> 3. Get a Driver's License
Bob
That's the way I like to drive too!
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:00:15 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Chieftains (was Magdelen) NJC
Kakki konfessed:
<>
Kakki,
It's hard to go wrong with the Chieftains - "The Long Black Veil" is a couple of
years old now but I still play it a lot; some great collaborations with Sinead,
Sting, The Rolling Stones, Van M, Ry Cooder, etc. They're also fascinating and
fun to catch in live performance.
Bob
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:17:22 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: Irony
In a message dated 2/8/99 9:49:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes:
<< Songs to Aging Children Come", "Man From Mars", "Not to Blame", all
are JM songs which I think have sad lyrics and sound "sad" as well. >>
"Last Time I Saw Richard" fits this category as well, IMO.
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:54:12 +0100
From: "Winfried Hühn"
Subject: Re: Gershwin's World
simon@icu.com schrieb:
>
> JM: Were you in the room when JONI MITCHELL was recording?
>
> HH: Yeah, we were live.
>
> JM: Her voice gets to some really surprising places.
>
> HH: It sure does. If you hadn't seen her name on the listings, you
> never would have guessed she's on the record. Noboby guessed it.
> How could they? She...blew...my...mind. She had recently sung
> an Ellington song with an orchestra on some show in Canada, and
> when she finished she said she was on cloud nine. Said that it
> stimulated the original juices she had for the old standards that
> she did before she got into folk music.
>
Thanks for sharing, simon.
Gershwin's World is a breathtakingly beautiful album -- not just because of
Joni's marvelous contributions -- ALL pieces are just fabulous. My favorite
one is "It Ain't Necessarily So" -- boy does it swing!
Clearly 1998's best album IMO.
Winfried
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:25:25 +0100
From: "Winfried Hühn"
Subject: Re: driving
M & C Urbanski wrote:
> My brother-in-law is a major asshole behind the wheel...one of those road
> rage people. I'd say from my experience, that men take their testosterone
> too seriously when they get behind the wheel!
>
Yes, but according to recent studies conducted here in Germany, women
are quickly catching up in this area, too! Sometimes, it seems as if the
course of female emancipation necessarily included repeating all the
mistakes and follies men make and have...
Last week, I was nearly wiped off the Autobahn by a cute-looking but
fiercely grinning blonde in a BMW 850 going at about 140 mph, even
though the road was wet. "Her husband's make-up for bad sex/no sex" was
my first thought. "Sure drives that way, too". Of course, I immediately
noticed how politically incorrect this was and went "hmmm...maybe she's
the top CEO of some company rushing ahead to make a business
appointment."
So the conclusion was that bad sex/no sex was involved either way... :-)
Winfried,
who BTW drives a sexually unsuspicious (but very unpatriotic) Subaru
Impreza
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:02:32 -0800
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript
Philip wrote:
>I agree totally, cruelty and inhumanity don't know geographic
>boundaries.
Nor religious boundaries, I might add. I think of certain cults which are
allowed to flourish under the protection of relgious freedom in the U.S. who
prey on vulnerable people, bilk them of most of their financial means and
"guilt" them into abandoning much of their individuality and independent
thought in the name of God. I've known a few people who have been swept up
in them. One gave up all her inheritance and left a promising future to
literally go wash windows in the name of the church founder and has been
lost from her family and friends for 25 years now. In another "church",
which claims to be the only "true Christian" sect, all unmarried women are
*expected* to babysit and clean house for the church *elders* on a weekly
basis, for no recompense. They are also basically told who they can date and
can only live and associate with other church members. This particular
group is flourishing in L.A. and the rest of the world right now. Is this
much different then the Magdalen Laundries? Not in my book.
>I mean look what happened in fairly modern places like certain states in
the USA in this century.
It's still happening in the USA, but is so outside the realm of most
peoples' experience, it's pretty hard to know about until it is exposed.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:11:07 EST
From: MHart16164@aol.com
Subject: Re: driving/NJC Definitely!
In a message dated 99-02-07 20:31:27 EST, you write:
<< At 01:09 AM 2/8/99 +0000, you wrote:
>instead of all this arguing could we perhaps discuss something inocuous
>like whether or not men are better drivers than women?
>
>;-)
Now you've done it! Open a big can o' worms, will you!?
Gee, do they have to have a car??
;-D >>
Oh, here's a subject that I just have to respond on...
With cars women win. Without cars, I am quite partial to men drivers.
Am I bad or what?
Michele in New Orleans
...I'm traveling in some vehicle...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:20:37 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript
Kakki said:
<< In another "church", which claims to be the only "true Christian"
sect, all unmarried women are *expected* to babysit and clean house
for the church *elders* on a weekly basis, for no recompense. They are
also basically told who they can date and can only live and associate
with other church members. >>
Boy, this sounds like the Southern Baptists, except you have to add
that they spend at least one afternoon/week with some gruesome sign
outside the women's clinic...
Bob, not a Southern Baptist
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:31:45 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: driving
Win-we have idiots like that here too. 70mph in thick fog! and whilst I do come
across the occassional woman in a fancy car driving like a dickhead, I still say
men are by far the worst drivers. Total idiots. They drive like the make
love-fast and with no consideration for anyone else.
Of course I am being quite general here. i am sure not all men are same;-)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:33:41 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: driving with JC
M & C Urbanski wrote:
> ----------
> > From: catman
> > To: jmdl
> > Subject: driving
> > Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 8:09 PM
> >
> > instead of all this arguing could we perhaps discuss something inocuous
> > like whether or not men are better drivers than women?
>
> OK people, I should have looked up the word "innocuous" before I posted! I
> blew this thread!
Actually Marilyn-it was meant to be a joke and not a thread! A discussion about
men vs women drivers (imo) seemed very like to get heated.i guess that joke
just fell fell flat!
> Honestly, therapy is a great thing, it helped me
> through this!
>
> If I can possibly lighten it up....
>
> Sometimes change comes at you
> like a broadside accident!
> There is chaos to the order
> random things you can't prevent...
>
> You see my life is nothing but ONE BIG JONI song! I think she follows me
> around or at least predicts my future!!!!!
> Marilyn
- --
CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:35:00 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript
Now now Bob and Kakki-this is looking suspiciously like a religious thread!!!
No agendas here please.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 99 08:39:51 -0700
From: Wally Breese
Subject: JM: Painting With Words And Music
Hi everybody,
Joni's new live-in-performance video, "Painting With Words And
Music", is now scheduled to arrive in stores on the 16th of March. The
tape runs 99 minutes, and for those of you who viewed the PPV broadcast
of this show last November, this version is exactly the same as that
broadcast. It'll be available in three nicely priced formats- VHS $19.98,
DVD $24.99, and Laser Disc $29.99.
I'm talking with distributors (Image Entertainment) right now about
their sponsoring a Web contest for us and I'll have more news on that
(and my opinions on the video's packaging) in a few days.
Later,
Wally Breese
The Joni Mitchell Homepage
http://www.JoniMitchell.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 99 08:41:51 -0700
From: Wally Breese
Subject: Addendum to JM: Painting With Words And Music
Hi,
I forgot to mention that you can have a look at the video's cover at
this address:
http://www.jonimitchell.com/upcoming2.html
Later,
Wally Breese
The Joni Mitchell Homepage
http://www.JoniMitchell.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:56:37 -0000
From: "P. Henry"
Subject: Re: noooooooJC!
azeem, thank you for your thoughtful and very well stated response... I certainly didn't mean to *be* concescending and I'm actually surprised if I'm taken that way as most people I've encountered on the list appear to be intelligent... and, I assumed, self secure...
I guess this is what leads to people saying I'm 'insulting' them... but I'm not! even in this example you point out, they are *assuming* that I mean something I didn't actually say and taking offense at that. ie: I say something about "sincere" but "innocent victims" and people read into it that 'he thinks we're stupid' which is not true... I on the other hand 'assume' that I'm talking to people who can think and intentionally *don't* patronize by being very frank and direct. apparently these opposing assumptions add up to disaster... *L*
a couple people have mentioned the term 'sub-text' to me, which I am not familiar with but which I can sort of figure out... azeem, perhaps I am not so sophisticated and I am certainly blunt... if that is offensive to people there's not much I can do about it. see, I don't have any 'sub-text'... it's all out front, like it or not. quite a few have posted similar statements to yours: ie: " (that is an assumption, albeit understandable... but wrong) >towards "sincere" but "innocent victims". Can't you see how condescending
>this is?" (no, I really can't... because I didn't mean what was assumed... I meant only what I said)
I also meant what I said, even if I didn't state it well, that people have agendas... including even Joni fans! I am at fault in that I didn't explain myself well, I guess, but what I mean by that is that some people have 'a cause' and some people don't necessarily... eg: some people want to convert others into joniphiles and some are quite content to just enjoy her... not to cast a negative judgement on either, you understand... I have had causes and agendas before and if a person does have a cause, it is jut naturally part of who they are and of course they take it with them wherever they go...
now if a person has *that* (Joni evangelist) agenda, this list is the place for them to express it... on the other hand if a person has a political, sexual or religious 'cause' or agenda, well... I've said it all before... the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not saying one thing and inferring another in the process... eg: when have I ever said I thought anyone was 'feeble-minded'??? pardon me, azeem, but that came from you... not me. do you see what I mean? sometimes I overexplain, trying to make myself clear... sorry...
in the last part of your post you say: 'Fine, if you don't like reading about gay issues or politics, say so - but don't assume that all of us agree with you'... souldn't that same logic be applied somewhat to the people who take to the soapbox on these NJC issues as well? I mean the part about '...don't assume that all of us agree with you'... also, you make the point that 'a lot of people like the NJC stuff'... my point is that there are a lot better places to get into these issues... if you and I wandered into a mutually agreeable sexual, religious or political forum on a regular basis and discussed Joni's music much of the time, what do you think would be the reaction? something to think about, maybe?
at any rate thank you again for taking the time to express your opinions and, even though I'm still beating my drum, I *have* read all of what you said and you *do* have some good points which I *will* think about and consider. *S*
take care, pat
- --
>Well Pat, I have read and enjoyed many of your posts, and I have to say I have
>seldom disagreed with ANYBODY on this list as much as I do with you on this
>one. For a start there is the sheer effrontery of your patronising attitude
>towards "sincere" but "innocent victims". Can't you see how condescending
>this is? And that is quite irrespective of whether you are "right" or "wrong"
>- although you are, for my money, way, way off track. I don't want to start
>throwing personal insults around, so I will just say that a statement like
>"it's happened before and it will happen again because I happen to be right!"
>might be construed as somewhat conceited.
>
>I completely disagree that anybody is using this list inappropriately to
>further their own agendas, and I believe that it's possible to get things out
>of proportion. Fine, if you don't like reading about gay issues or politics,
>say so - but don't assume that all of us agree with you, or that we are so
>feeble minded that we can be "scammed" by these sinister people.
>
>Can't you just delete the NJC stuff and acknowledge {which you sort of do,
>very grudgingly) what a balanced view would surely reveal - namely that a lot
>of people like the NJC stuff, and you don't have to be into US politics and be
>gay to appreciate some of the stuff. To me, it's all about whether people
>have got something worth saying and can say it with either wit, or brevity, or
>lyricism, or insight, or clarity, whatever.
>
>There, glad to get that off my chest...
>
>Azeem in London
>
Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:48:57 -0000
From: philipf@tinet.ie
Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript
On a lighter note. I saw Paddy Maloney from the Chieftains
on television last week talking about Joni's contribution. I have
to smile every time I see that man. He said she wrote the song
about twenty years ago after reading about some weird nuns or
something in a magazine but she never got around to recording
it herself. He said he wrote some church like music to go with it.
Philip
NP DJ Skitz - Where my mind is at
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:24:26 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC)
Kakki wrote about various black activist musicians:
<<>>
That certainly is a possibility, but the possibility that these artists
would feel uncomfortable participating in such a project makes me
feel only slightly better than if they hadn't been asked at all. I also
find it doubtful that KRS-One, for example, would turn down any
opportunity to spread his message.
In reality it becomes chicken-egg: do the black artists feel
uncomfortable because the focus seems narrow, or does the
focus seem narrow because the black artists feel uncomfortable?
<<>>
Excellent suggestion, which I will take.
I hate to be a gadfly (well, no I don't ;-) ), but it is my opinion that
these questions *must* be asked constantly if we are ever to
move beyond our profound divisions. In my opinion, no discussion
of activism (and certainly no discussion of activism's relationship
with music) is complete without a discussion of the civil rights
movement. Period. The film may indeed be more complete than
is currently being presented, but that begs another question: why
does the marketing overlook any black musicians who *are*
participating?
I'm not jumping on Crosby (yet), just asking some questions.
When the film's out, *then* I'll jump on Crosby. ;-)
- --Michael
NP: Joan Armatrading, _Greatest Hits_
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:45:16 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: Irony
In a message dated 2/8/99 9:49:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes:
<< Songs to Aging Children Come", "Man From Mars", "Not to Blame", all
are JM songs which I think have sad lyrics and sound "sad" as well. >>
"Last Time I Saw Richard" fits this category as well, IMO.
Paul I
True, Paul, which is why it seems so out of place when she speaks in
the "Un-Joni-like" waitress voice on the MOA version with "drink up
now, it's getting on time to close" - not a good song to inject that
kind of humor into, I think the laughter she gets is more nervous
laughter...
Bob
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 18:58:08 +0100
From: "Winfried Hühn"
Subject: Re: driving (NJC)
To raise the discussion on this topic to a scientific level, here are
some brand-new statistics from the Swiss Federal Office for Statistics.
They are rather embarassing for us men and pretty impressively back up
what Marilyn and Colin were concluding from their everyday-experience.
In Switzerland, statistically, 31 % of all men (one out of three!!) will
receive a court sentence because of traffic violations at least once in
their lives. The number for women is 6 %. Now these are serious
violations like drunk driving etc.
Winfried
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:04:34 EST
From: RickieLee1@aol.com
Subject: Re: noooooooJC!
In a message dated 2/8/99 8:59:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
badwolff@angelfire.com writes:
<< I certainly didn't mean to *be* concescending and I'm actually surprised
if I'm taken that way as most people I've encountered on the list appear to be
intelligent... and, I assumed, self secure... >>
to quote another great songwriter: "a man hears what he wants to hear and
disregards the rest..."
if i may be so bold listers, i would suggest we drop this subject, as marian
said. it isn't worth it. some of us are not capable of hearing what we sound
like, or perhaps are just not willing to do so if they could. something i
have probably been guilty of in my life and probably will be again. but at
least i can own up to it.
peace, ric
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:11:12 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: D.C. JMDL (NJC)
Resa wrote:
<<>>
Another D.C.er!!! You'll learn soon enough that D.C. has an
astonishing collection of JMDL locals with heart, brains and (I
daresay) looks for days.
And when our friends from NYC come down, watch out!!
Please keep in touch for the next D.C. gathering. (Speaking
of which, it's been a while...)
Always luv-luvin' the Joni Mitchell Internet COMMUNITY. (Just
thought that word could use a revisitation given some recent
threads.)
- --Michael
NP: R.E.M., _New Adventures in Hi-Fi_
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:02:37 PST
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: A Question and A Thank-You
Sorry, that subject line is out of order. First, the big "thank-you" to
all for steering away from flame-throwing and engaging in a fascinating
discussion of Joni songs, relationships and "who's in what song."
That's the kind of thing that put me on this list, so keep it up.
Okay, now the question ... was reading the latest 'People' mag, most
famous (or "in-")for the Chelsea Clinton cover story. So flipping
through "Picks & Pans", I came across a review of Johnatha Brooke's
latest album, and the review says something to the effect of "fans of
Joni Mitchell will like her singing ..." So, jmdl, is this true?
Should I drop coin on Ms. Brooke and her Joni-like singing? Or is this
just another in a storied list of comparisons, most of which are empty?
Thanks in advance.
Don Rowe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:58:29 -0800
From: Scott Price
Subject: NJC - Jonatha Brooke
At 11:02 AM 2/8/99 PST, Don Rowe wrote:
>I came across a review of Johnatha Brooke's
>latest album, and the review says something to the effect of "fans of
>Joni Mitchell will like her singing ..." So, jmdl, is this true?
Jonatha is the REAL thing. Great songwriter, fine lyricist, decent musician
and awesome singer, Jonatha explores and incorporates bits and pieces from
folk, rock, jazz, and pop and puts it all together into a wonderful blend.
If I had to cite *one* thing that sets her apart from all the "latest Joni
Mitchells" it's the creative use of dissonance in many of her songs.
Most highly recommended is her first solo album, "Plumb." Her latest is
"Jonatha Brooke Live" and it's a must for any Jonatha follower. But if
you're just getting started listening to her I'd recommend "Plumb,"
followed by "Ten Cent Wings." Before going solo she teamed up with Jennifer
Kimball to form "The Story" and they put out a couple of really special
albums: "Grace in Gravity" and "Angel in the House" which you'll want to
get next....
Scott, obviously gushing.... :-)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:59:50 EST
From: FredNow@aol.com
Subject: Song To A Seagull
Terri wrote:
> > My favorite album is STAS (I realize I am in the minority!) The first
> > time I listened to it, I dreamt of the ocean that night. I know it may
> > not be as rich and complex as other albums, but I love its beauty and
> > simplicity.
You'd be in the majority at my house; although I really can't pare down to a
single favorite Joni album, STAS is always among the contenders (along with
For The Roses and Hejira).
And actually I feel that STAS is really not that musically simple, and in many
ways is much more musically rich and complex than later albums; not
necessarily in instrumentation and texture, which obviously gets denser and
more complex in later work, but in the actual notes and chords themselves, the
raw elements of the music. As I've written here more than twice, this is one
of my big problems with her compositions after DJRD, they're just not as
musically interesting to me on that elemental level. STAS displays a profound
intuitive gift for musical composition and an inspired melodic/harmonic
sensibility.
- -Fred
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:04:26 EST
From: FredNow@aol.com
Subject: Re: Damn-o-reetie
In a message dated 2/7/99 3:59:44 AM, Thomas Ross wrote:
>but leaven it with his
>
> These faces in the crowd:
> petals on a wet, black bough.
Tom, you omitted 3 words, which, in a poem with only 14 words, is more than 21
percent incomplete! (insert emoticon here)
Here's the complete poem (one of my favorites), In a Station of the Metro, by
Ezra Pound:
The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
Petals on a wet, black bough.
- -Fred
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:13:26 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: Song To A Seagull
Fred wrote:
<<< STAS displays a profound intuitive gift for musical composition
and an inspired melodic/harmonic sensibility.>>>
I agree. I'm not a diehard disciple of either _Clouds_ or _LOTC_,
which at times sound over-precious to me, and lyrically STAS isn't
as mature as later work, but I think many of its melodies are
complex and almost otherworldly in their intervals. "I Had a King"
especially comes to mind.
I was also struck while listening to it a couple of weeks how much
of today's Joni, right up through TTT, you could hear vocally in
STAS but not in _Clouds_ or _LOTC_.
- --Michael
NP: Mary J. Blige, _Share My World_
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:01:27 -0800
From: Randy Remote
Subject: Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~
Kakki wrote:
>
> I think of certain cults which are
> allowed to flourish under the protection of relgious freedom in the U.S. who
> prey on vulnerable people, bilk them of most of their financial means and
> "guilt" them into abandoning much of their individuality and independent
> thought in the name of God.
Sounds like every religion ever invented.
You go on to talk about a strict cult and ask:
> Is this
> much different then the Magdalen Laundries? Not in my book.
Yes it is different. They walked into their little prison of their own free
will and can walk out when they want to, outgrow their need for authority
figures to run their lives, etc. The laundry women were physically trapped all
their lives.
RR
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:00:26 -0800
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: Joni and the Chieftains
Philip wrote:
>I saw Paddy Maloney from the Chieftains
>on television last week talking about Joni's contribution.
>He said he wrote some church like music to go with it.
The accompaniment by the Chieftains sounds like very beautiful, but somewhat
somber, traditional Irish music. I have to admit I never much liked the
melody to the song until I heard this version. The Chieftains'
participation greatly enhances the emotion in the song and makes it just
gorgeous. I'm sure Joni is thrilled with it. The rest of the album is also
quite spectacular.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:22:19 PST
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~
On the imprisonment of cults and the discussion of the literal Magdalen
Laundry ... Randy writes in response to Kakki --
>Yes it is different. They walked into their little prison of their
>own free will and can walk out when they want to, outgrow their need
>for authority figures to run their lives, etc. The laundry women >were
physically trapped all their lives.
>RR
>
I'm going to have to hang my hat with Kakki on this one. The mental
prison of a cult following is just as strong, if not far stronger than
stone walls of any penitentiary. People do not "go there of free will"
- -- they are intentionally deceived and eniticed by messages that sound
very much like what they want to hear, albeit innocently at first. Then
as the dogma and mantra of the cult language is reinforced, any
semblance of remaining individuality is stripped away. Many times, the
only escape is a physical intervention that we know as "deprogramming"
- -- and even that doesn't work all the time. If you, as I have had to,
ever live through this nightmare with someone you care about deeply --
you'll understand.
Don Rowe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:16:00 -0800
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: Re:(NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~
Randy wrote:
>You go on to talk about a strict cult and ask:
>
>> Is this
>> much different then the Magdalen Laundries? Not in my book.
>
>Yes it is different. They walked into their little prison of their own
free
>will and can walk out when they want to, outgrow their need for authority
>figures to run their lives, etc. The laundry women were physically trapped
all
>their lives.
The similarities I see are:
1) Both groups of victims are put into the situation from a vulnerable
position in their life
2) Both groups are taken advantage of in the name of God
3) Both groups, as women, are relegated to mindless, menial work and told
what to do by their superiors
3) While the laundry women may have been physically trapped, I would
consider several in today's cults also as prisoners of sorts because they
psychologically trapped and live under a sort of "house arrest" with the
other members constantly monitoring their actions and testing their loyalty.
If they try to leave, tremendous pressure and veiled threats are made on
them. Some have no where else to go, even if they do get the strength to
leave, because they are either estranged from family and friends or without
them.
Yes there is a difference between living under the harsh conditions of the
Magdalen Laundries, but psychologically, the conditions of people,
especially women, roped into these cults are just as medieval when one
strips away the modern veneer. I also wonder why the women in the Magdalen
Laundries could not physically escape, despite reports of the sharded
glass-topped walls. Why not just organize and take over the nuns? I think
they could have escaped and would have, if not for the fact that they also
felt they had no where else to go as "outcasts" in their family. Ultimately
it is psychological imprisonment that victimizes both groups.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:22:04 EST
From: MDESTE1@aol.com
Subject: Re: (NJC)Magdalen Laundries ~
All these arguments and points fail to take into account a very
obvious fact. Without spending a long time on a more detailed
answer. Ireland adnother places in the British Isles end up with
very large uneducated families. VERY uneducated. In some
cases kids from these families have very low IQ's and almost
no education. All the things you guys are referencing ie cults
and what amounts to reform school type places arent "at will"
places for many reasons. there were and are many "forces"
keeping people in these places. No law keeps a woman with
a wife beater yet inexplicably many stay. Its all a case of
reference points. Where would the supposed escapees go?
To a family which placed them there in the first place ?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:34:42 -0700
From: Steve Dulson
Subject: Mark in LA
Mark in Seattle wrote:
>After reading the digests of the past week it looks like there were storms on
>the list.... For anybody who doubts it, let me tell you that the spirit of
>fellowship & good will is still alive in JMDL land. Last Sunday I saw
>it first hand and I am here to testify! Can I get a witness?
Amen, brother! Good will, and fellowship indeed. May there be many
more such gatherings in our future.
##############################################################
Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com
"The Tinker's Own"
http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html
"Southern California Dulcimer Heritage"
http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/
"The Living Tradition Concert Series"
(Website soon!)
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V4 #67
*************************
There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more
details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading
-------
JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank
message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info.
-------
The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available
now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details.
-------
Don't forget about these ongoing projects:
FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related
questions? -send them to
Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to
Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact?
-send it to
-------
Post messages to the list at
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to
-------
Siquomb, isn't she?