From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #65
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Monday, February 8 1999 Volume 04 : Number 065
The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes
by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery
username: jimdle password: siquomb
-------
The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Re: More on Joni painting ["M & C Urbanski" ]
Re: joni) [catman ]
Re: joni) ["M & C Urbanski" ]
(NJC) Re: cookbook suggestion ["Marsha" ]
Re: Joni and James [Gellerray@aol.com]
Re: (NJC) Jacksonville, FLa. the German waterloo [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
driving [catman ]
Re: driving [luvart@snet.net]
Re: driving ["M & C Urbanski" ]
re: More on Joni painting [simon@icu.com]
Gershwin's World (1-of-2) 'Downbeat' Review [simon@icu.com]
The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [simon@icu.com]
Gershwin's World (2-of-2) 'Fi' Interview [simon@icu.com]
Re: More on Joni painting [TerryM2442@aol.com]
Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript ["Kakki" ]
Re: noooooooJC! [luvart@snet.net]
Re: More on Joni painting [Scott and Jody ]
Re: noooooooJC! [Mark-n-Travis ]
Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript [Mark-n-Travis ]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:36:55 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Re: More on Joni painting
The one of the woman in an orange gown, sleeping
> >on a couch. Cindy was close, she thought the title was "Golden Autumn."
> >It is actually titled "Flaming June" and is by Lord Frederick Leighton.
> >
> >See it here (cropped):
> >http://www.geocities.com/~dianasav/Art/FlamingJune.jpg
>> It is more than fine for her to paint a copy
> >of a painting, although it is usually art students who create copies of
> >famous works to heighten their skills. But to copy it so blatantly,
> >change the background, flop the image ... and not give any credit to
> >Leighton ... not cool. I do wonder about it. I would love to hear her
> >explanation.
> >
> >Sherrie
> Sherri,
> i checked out the URL above and it's clear that Joni's painting is
> a copy of the Leighton painting. an exact copy (image reversed).
>
> as for Joni not giving credit where credit is due? ... i can only point
> out that she never includes the proper titles or any other information
> about her own paintings either. at least not on the albums.
> Joni's version of "Flaming June" is listed as:
> Girl (After Rossetti)
> Oil On Canvas, 1993
> simon
I'd like to stick my face in this. As an artist I've copied art as
exercises in classes. It can be a growth experience if there is something
to be learned from doing it. I've never entered any of those pieces in
shows. Only once in a student show did I enter a Brancussi study and
titled it as such. For my own pleasure, I've made paintings of Joni which
I copied from photos but they are my interpretations in painting.
For Joni to call herself a painter and blatantly copy a painting and call
it her own I think is low. She obviously loves the impressionistic style
but, I think she needs to go further and create her own impressionistic
style. Not VanGogh's or anybody else's. She has a fantastic talent, I
wish she'd put into her paintings the uniqueness she puts into her music.
She has grown in technique, she is stifled in creativity. She had more of
a unique style when she was doing the C&S, CSN&Y So Far marker and
watercolor stuff.
"Now I sit up here the critic"!
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:44:04 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: joni)
Terri-you are not alone! STAS is amongst my favourites and always has been. I
really like and it is an album that when played to non joni's they usually
like it and ask who it is! It is a lovely gentle work. imo.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:44:09 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Re: joni)
> My favorite album is STAS (I realize I am in the minority!) The first
> time I listened to it, I dreamt of the ocean that night. I know it may
> not be as rich and complex as other albums, but I love its beauty and
> simplicity. I especially love "The Dawntreader," "I Had a King," "Nathan
> LaFraneer," and "Song to a Seagull." NRH is another one of my favorites.
> With the exception of "Ray's Dad's Cadillac" I think the album flows
> beautifully. I am instantly at peace when I listen to it.
> -Terri
You're allowed to be in the minority about what Joni CD's you enjoy! C&S
is my all time favorite because it's one that sucked me in. I agree with
"Ray's Dad"s Cadillac". It's funny, the first time my husband heard that
song his comment was...."She can put anything to music" and began to sing
to the tune of Ray's Dad's... "Dog shit in the yard". I had to laugh!
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:57:09 -0500
From: "Marsha"
Subject: (NJC) Re: cookbook suggestion
Azeem has scared me with:
>Azeem in London
>Was playing: David Bowie's "Low", helping me get over a mild bout of choler
Yikes and shazam, Azeem!!!
Surely you are not getting over "cholera"? This is maybe an
interpretation/translation
of flu or such? Otherwise I am afraid we might not hear much more from you
in the future...
and I was wanting to call on you sometime when I'm in England, but
now.....hoo....uh...maybe not..... ;-)
Marsha, always got nauseated reading about deadly communicable disease
in my nursing courses
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:21:49 EST
From: Gellerray@aol.com
Subject: Re: Joni and James
I always remember things joni says in interviews, and i remember her saying in
some interview, that drugs were, for a writer, an irresistible temptation,
because they allowed one to...well, actually, I don't remember how she put it!
Something like explore another consciousness but it was less cheesy/hippie
than that; it was typical joni eloquence, simple but not predictable. Anyway
I remember the interviewer asking her if she had done acid and she said "O I
tried everything--except for heroin." Which is pretty much my story too as a
matter of fact. So once again I could relate. Not that that is terribly
germane here but I just am throwing it in.
I wish I could tell you where that interview was, but I can't pull that info
up.
this is little ray-ray comin at ya from the Mississippi Valley in lower
Illinois.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:21:00 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: (NJC) Jacksonville, FLa. the German waterloo
In a message dated 2/7/99 4:24:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, whuehn@stud.uni-
goettingen.de writes:
<< Incidentally, if you see one of our beloved soccer boys running around
town, can you please tell them to go sightseeing instead of playing
soccer? Oh yes, and if they could pick up and bring home some good old
western-style tar and feathers, that would be nice, too. It would
greatly ease and enhance check-in procedures when they get back down on
German soil!
In case they ask for political asylum, please don't give it to them --
we want them here! A "warm" welcome awaits them....
:-) :-) :-)
Winfried >>
Very funny, Winfried.
I have just one question.
What is soccer?
;>)
Paul Ivice
P.S. Pitchers and catchers report in 10 days.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 01:09:31 +0000
From: catman
Subject: driving
instead of all this arguing could we perhaps discuss something inocuous
like whether or not men are better drivers than women?
;-)
- --
CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:27:34 -0500
From: luvart@snet.net
Subject: Re: driving
At 01:09 AM 2/8/99 +0000, you wrote:
>instead of all this arguing could we perhaps discuss something inocuous
>like whether or not men are better drivers than women?
>
>;-)
Now you've done it! Open a big can o' worms, will you!?
Gee, do they have to have a car??
;-D
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:34:39 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Re: driving
> instead of all this arguing could we perhaps discuss something inocuous
> like whether or not men are better drivers than women?
In about 86 I was ticketed for not wearing a seatbelt. Got pulled over
because my front license plate was up in my windshield. From that point on
I wore my belt cuz I didn't want to pay another stupid ticket.
In 91 my new husband & I (& kids) went to a friends home for dinner. The
hostess & I went to go pick up my wedding pictures. I had just found out
the day before that I was pregnant. As we were driving along 2 teenage
boys (gawking at girls walking on the side of the road) made a left hand
turn into our car and hit us head on. It was a 60-70 MPH impact. If I
didn't have my belt on I wouldn't be here today. I wound up with a
dislocated right wrist and whiplash; I lost my daughter in the 5th month.
She lived 3 hours and died.
Later I found out that that young man made light of the accident and wound
up rear-ending someone else 2 weeks later.
My brother-in-law is a major asshole behind the wheel...one of those road
rage people. I'd say from my experience, that men take their testosterone
too seriously when they get behind the wheel!
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:58:06 -0800
From: simon@icu.com
Subject: re: More on Joni painting
Mark writes ...
>
>Not true. Mingus includes the painting titles.
>
>Mark
>
>>as for Joni not giving credit where credit is due? ... i can only point
>>out that she never includes the proper titles or any other information
>>about her own paintings either. at least not on the albums.
>
>"Evil communications corrupt good manners."
> - I Corinthians 15:33
___________________________________________________________________________
i stand corrected.
they are identified on the HDCD re-issue and the 'original' LP.
unfortunately i was looking at the wrong CD earlier today (original issue).
is there a point to you scripture quotation?
for now ~ take care,
- -------
simon
- -------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:03:33 -0800
From: simon@icu.com
Subject: Gershwin's World (1-of-2) 'Downbeat' Review
DOWNBEAT Magazine
February 1999
GERSHWIN'S WORLD is the rare grand slam, an important album that's also
fun to hear. It repays every kind of listening--easy, close and even
(especially) frequent, with pleasures that are accessible, sensuous and
engrossing.
The highlights start with the "Overture (Facinating Rhythm)," a snippet
of percussion discussion that's clear as a compass pointing to the heart
of the Jazz Age matter: that rhythm gives rise and shape to melody,
leading to previously unexplored harmonic extrapolations. Skip not lightly
over "It Ain't Necessarily So"; this cut (and the similarly cast
"Here Come De Honey Man") with trumpeter Eddie Henderson slyly insinuating
Miles' muted signature sound, James Carter rising up bodacious, Kenny
Garrett stretching soulfully, Herbir Hancock unfolding brilliant if
self-deprecating piano licks--all tethered by bassist Ira Coleman, upswept
by African drums
and Terry Lyne Carrington's traps--is an ultra-sophisticated realization of
what Gershwin and other visionaries in the '20s foresaw as jazz's potential.
Get set, then, for one of the year's outstanding single tracks:
JONI MITCHELL, more noir, heartbreaking and worldly wise than ever.
she simply slays "the Man I Love." Her voice is intimately recorded:
Its thicks and thins and hard-earned character cracks are captured in all
their glory, while her phrasing is as narratively cogent yet evidently
casual as Billy Holiday's. Wayne Shorter's tenor wafts in to wrap around
her like cashmire--and after all these years, doesn't their partnership beg
comparison to Pres and Lady Day's? Repeat track 3 as often as necessary,
but don't get hung up there--you still want to hear Shorter on tenor blast
through "Cotton Tail" and rail on soprano on the second MITCHELL star-turn
(with Stevie Wonder jazz harmonica solo!), "Summertime."
Oh, yes--Stevie Wonder. He tears wildly into "St. Louis Blues," taking
its eternal complaint back to pre-blues roots and forward to right now.
It's Wondertime--a tour de force--another album stopper! but don't fail
to note what Hancock plays on piano on these tracks and all the others.
You can slink to his tantalizing cross-rhythms, or sink into the opulence
of his renditions of Gershwin's so-called "legitimate" pieces:
"Lullaby" (with the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra), "Prelude In C# Minor"
(with soprano Kathleen Battle, cello, bass, African guitarist and a spare
Brazilian rhythm part), and the ruminative movement of Ravel's
"Concerto For Piano And Orchestra In G."
On these through-composed works, Hancock can turn too ruminative,
to a degree losing the composition's thread--like a man who's never met
a harmonic resolution he likes to let stand. But on the smoking combo
tracks he commands the jazz business, comping to inspire and enhance,
never contain or control. He sparkles in duet with Chick Corea on a
"free stride" version of James P. Johnson's "blueberry rhyme." Their
chops are up, their danders, too, and though the track's not long,
it's satisfying. Hancock's finale, a four-minute solo "Embraceable You,"
is a piano ballad performance as tenderly lyrical as you're likely to
encounter anywhere, its ending a snowflake that simply melts away.
This estimable success follow's several ernest, ambitious but flawed
attempts by Hancock to reassert his all-genres musical vision. Maybe
it's ironic that GERSHWIN'S WORLD makes good on his intent for new
standards--to refresh the jazz world's habits regarding repertoire,
arrangements and interpretation. By bringing current thought and practice
to some of America's most long-treasured materials, rather than imposing
jazz aspirations and strategies on songs of distinctly pop-rock genesis,
Hancock lends weight to Ellington's dictum that there are only two kinds
of music, good and bad (not to say pop rock's bad, but rather that the old
standards don't have to prove themselves fit for improvisitation, so can
stand up to radical revision and juxtaposition with chamber group
renditions, too). Kudos to conceptualists Hancock and producer
Robert Sadin for appraising the Gershwins' (george and Ira's) world as an
embraceable heritage; the result is an in-depth and enlightening evocation
of the American century's musical sources, one of the best to celebrate
the composer whose centennial occasioned a couple dozen such high-concept
tributes in 1998. but from first listening, GERSHWIN'S WORLD is even
better than that: a CD to turn both jazz and non-jazz pals on to, to have
near your bed, play in your car and recall with delight in your mind.
- --Howard Mandel
4 1/2 Stars, (of 5 possible )
___________________________________________________________________________
a Masterpiece of decptively sublime musical collaborations,
by one of the few True Living Jazz Masters.
you really should hear this album, I recommend it highly!
for now ~ take care,
- -------
simon
- -------
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:03:12 -0800
From: simon@icu.com
Subject: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript
The Magdalen Laundries
60 MINUTES ~ Jan. 3, 1999
STEVE KROFT: someone once said that the only thing really new in the world
is the history we don't know. Today, the Irish people are
discovering that sometimes painful truth. Five years ago, an order of nuns
in Dublin sold off part of their convent to developers. On it were the
remains of 133 women buried in unmarked graves, and buried with them was a
scandal. As it turns out, the women had been virtual prisoners, confined
behind convent walls, for perceived sins of the flesh,, condemned to a life
of servitude in something called the Magdalen laundries. It may sound
medieval, but the last Magdalen laundry closed just two years ago. And the
revelations have shocked the Irish people, embarrassed the Catholic Church
and tarnished the country's image.
(Footage of Good Shepard Convent; wash house)
KROFT: From the front, the former Good Shepard Convent in
Cock looks like it could be an exclusive private school, but go
around back, and you can still see the skeleton of the wash house, one
of dozens of Magdalen institutions scattered across the countryside.
Ms. MARY NORRIS: that's the laundry. That's the laundry, Josephine.
KROFT: Is there any way to get down there?
Ms. NORRIS: Oh. I can get down there.
KROFT: Want to go down?
Ms. NORRIS: Yes.
KROFT: Be careful. You want me to hold your hand?
(Footage of Mary Norris, Josephine McCarthy and Steve Kroft
approaching wash house)
KROFT: It was here that Mary Norris and Josephine McCarthy
each spent three years of hard labor, enforced silence and prayer,
after it was decided that they were in moral danger and unfit to live in
Irish society. Both had come from troubled homes, spent time in Catholic
orphanages, and were sent out as servant girls, where they ran into trouble
with their employers for staying out late. They were turned over to the
nuns because it was suspected they either were, or were about to become,
sexually active. Josephine says she was accused of having sex in the
backseat of a car.
Ms. JOSEPHINE McCARTHY: And then the next thing I knew, I was with this
woman on a train to Cork. And I was just brought
up here. I was just told my name was Phyllis, and I'd work in the laundry.
(Photo of McCarthy and other women with faces obscured;
footage of wash house)
KROFT: They were given new names by the nuns to help them
break from their pasts. No one knows how many women were sent
off to the laundries. The religious orders refuse to make those records
available, but estimates range into the tens of thousands.
What was the authority under which you were being held?
Ms. NORRIS: The church. What other authority was there? I would have
rather been down in the women's jail; at least I would have
got a sentence, and I would know when I was leaving.
Ms. McCARTHY: It's made me feel a horrible, dirty person all my life.
(Footage of Norris, McCarthy and Kroft entering building and walking
past convent)
KROFT: Both were teen-agers when they came here, Mary in
the 1950s and Josephine a decade later. Their only crime was
appearing to violate the moral code dictated by the church. At that time,
it was the church and not the state that was the most powerful force in
Ireland. There was no due process and no appeal.
Ms. McCARTHY: We got up about 5:00 in the morning, went to Mass, had
breakfast, staarted work, went to bed about 7:00 at night.
That was it. That was our life. And we daren't ask questions.
KROFT: Hard work?
Ms. McCARTHY: Very hard. You'd have to hand-wash, scrub.
You'd have no knuckles left. Ironing--you'd be burnt.
It was just hard work, very hard work.
(Footage of Norris and Kroft looking in window; wash house)
Ms. NORRIS: Here's the laundry.
KROFT: Josephine, you want to come down?
Ms. McCARTHY: Nope.
KROFT: You sure?
Ms. McCARTHY: I can see it in my mind.
(Footage of Norris and Kroft at window; interior of wash house; convent)
KROFT: The choice of work was no accident. They were
called Magdalens, or penitents, and they were supposed to wash
away their sins, along with the stains on the laundry of the orphanages
and churches, prisons, even the local butcher shop. The income from their
labor put a roof over their heads, food on their plates, and financed any
other ventures the nuns might be involved in.
Ms. NORRIS: And all the time--all the time you were washing,
you were praying.
You couldn't talk.
(Footage of framed image of nun on wall)
Ms. NORRIS: There was a nun sitting--
--she used to sit over there.
KROFT: You were praying to yourself, or you were praying out loud?
Ms. NORRIS: You were praying out loud, every one of you, for your sins,
of course.
KROFT: Is that what you were praying for?
Ms. NORRIS: Yes. But I never prayed. I said the words, but that's all.
KROFT: Why didn't you pray?
Ms. NORRIS: Maybe I felt God let me down.
(Footage of painting of Mary Magdalen and Jesus;
vintage footage of women in Magdalen laundries)
KROFT: The laundries got their name from Mary Magdalen,
the fallen woman* who became one of Jesus' closest followers**.
They began 150 years ago as homes to rehabilitate prostitutes, but by the
early 20th century, the role had been expanded to care for unwed mothers
and other young women the church considered to be wayward. The stigma
attached to illegitimacy and promiscuity was so severe that the woman was
often thrown out of her home, driven from her community, disowned by her
family. And for many, the laundries were the only things that stood
between them and the street. These pictures are the only wisual record
of the Magdalen institutions that were able to find in Irish archives.
But some of the massive compounds are still standing.
This was the entire laundry right here in these two buildings?
Mr. NIALL McELWEE: That's right, those two buildings...
(Footage of Niall McElwee with Kroft)
KROFT: This former Magdalen institution in Waterford is
now a college campus. Niall McElwee, a sociologist who teaches
here, has written about the Magdalens. who could make the decision to
send someone here?
Mr. McELWEE: The parish priest, the Catholic curate, a--a--a family
member and perhaps the girl herself, in some instances.
(Footage of McElwee with Kroft)
KROFT: McElwee says some people knew the laundries existed,
but exactly what went on behind the convent walls was largely a
mystery.
Mr. McELWEE: Well, the parents, I think, of Waterford children would often
say, 'If you misbehave, you'll be sent to the laundry, or
you'll be sent to the industrial school or you'll be sent down to the nuns.'
KROFT: It was a place to be feared?
Mr. McELWEE: Yes, it was a place to be feared. In fact, you know, there
would have been apple trees, for example. And this would be
one place where children would not steal apples, mainly because they were
afraid of what would happen to them if they got caught inside.
KROFT: You make it sound like a prison.
Mr. McELWEE: Well, some people are arguing that these were prisons.
I mean, at least in a prison, people had certain rights
and responsibilities that--that were--were certainly taken away from
the women within these walls.
KROFT: What happened if someone escaped?
Did the police go looking for them?
Mr. McELWEE: Well, I think the--the religious orders would say that
"every effort was made to try and locate these girls."
That's the quote that I was given by one of the--the religious people.
(Footage of Norris, McCarthy and Kroft; walls)
KROFT: Even if they'd wanted to escape, it would have been
very difficult. At the Magdalen institution in Cork, Mary and
Josephine were locked behind 20-foot brick walls, topped with shards of
broken glass that were mortared into the concrete. About the only way out
was to be claimed by a relative who was willing to take responsibility.
Ms. McCARTHY: We were watched 24 hours a day.
KROFT: So you couldn't leave?
Ms. McCARTHY: Oh, no.
Ms. NORRIS: No way. My mother didn't even know where I was.
My sisters didn't know where I was. Nobody knew where I was.
(Footage of Norris and McCarthy; Norris with Kroft)
KROFT: In some cases, inquiring family members were told that
the church had found their missing relatives jobs in other cities,
and with new names, they would be difficult to locate. Mary Norris was
finally released when an auntin boston began making inquiries.
Were you paid at all for your labor?
Ms. NORRIS: You must be joking. No pay.
KROFT: Nothing?
Ms. NORRIS: Nothing whatsoever.
(Footage of McCarthy)
KROFT: Josephine McCarthy was rescued by a brother in London.
Ms. McCARTHY: When I left, they gave my brother an envelope with three
10-shilling notes in it. and my brother asked the nun what
it was for, and she said, 'That's payment for working.' And my brother
wasn't very nice. And he just tore it up and threw it back at her.
KROFT: Thirty shillings?
Ms. McCARTHY: Mm-hmm, for three years' hard work.
(Footage of McCarthy)
KROFT: At that time, 30 shillings was about $3.20.
When you look at this through 1998 eyes, it looks like slavery.
Mr. McELWEE: Yes, it does. And I think all the religious orders have made
the point that perhaps the one thing that they will--they
will least forget is the way that they didn't react publicly at the time,
that
they basically supported this system.
KROFT: How did they see themselves?
Mr. McELWEE: They saw themselves as serving god and serving the people
that they were working with.
KROFT: How were they helping them?
Mr. McELWEE: Well, they were helping them by--by fulfilling the need
of security , by providing a building, by providing a roof,
by providing meals, and prov--for providing something for the women to do
during the day. Of course, what they did during the day was they worked
in the laundry. They toiled in the laundry.
Mr. NORRIS: Sometimes you'd hear the children in the orphanage.
(Footage of Norris, McCarthy and Kroft; orphanage)
KROFT: According to Mary and Josephine, the experience was
hardest on unmarried mothers. Their children were taken from them
at birth and placed in orphanages, sometimes within the same compound.
Josephine remembered a woman who could see and hear her child.
Ms. McCARTHY: She couldn't even talk to her; she couldn't smile at her.
And that was her daughter, her baby daughter in the
orphanage.
(Footage of Norris and McCarthy)
KROFT: Most of the babies were eventually adopted, some by
good Catholic families in the United States.
Ms. VINCENT BROWNE: A lot of this has to do with our attitudes to sex and
our attitudes to women.
(Footage of Vincent Browne)
KROFT: Vincent Browne is one of Ireland's most respected
editors and journalists. He's the founder of Magill magazine.
Mr. BROWNE: I think that part of the veneration of the Blessed Virgin has
been to accord a status to virginity. To some extent, women
who had had sex, within or without marriage, were regarded as unclean--and
as less than perfect.
(Footage of Browne with Kroft)
KROFT: Browne says the nuns believed that through suffering
and hard work in the laundries for the greater glory of God, they
might find salvation in heaven.
Mr. BROWNE: And a lot of conscientious Catholics, I suppose, thought this
was entirely legitimate, that these people were going to be
preserved for the hereafter, even though their lives on Earth was going
to be harsh and difficult.
(Footage of Kroft walking past building and ringing doorbell, Kroft and
camerman at door)
KROFT: When the last laundries finally closed, most of the Magdalens had
nowhere to go. Many of them now reside in group homes and convents
like this one in Dublin, living side-by-side with, and being cared for, by
the same nuns who once confined them.
(Footage of Kroft walking past building and ringing doorbell;
Kroft and cameraman at door)
KROFT: The association that represents the nuns, the
Conference of Religious of Ireland, declined an interview, but did
give us a statement saying, the sisters accept the part they played in this
regrettable era, and asked that it be examined in context.
Could you just check and see if there are any Magdalens that
would come out and talk to us?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN #1: I can ask. I'll just check.
KROFT: OK, great, thank you.
(Footage of building; Kroft waiting in doorway; arch)
KROFT: The statement said many former Magdalens had painful
memories, and welcomed the opportunity for them to speak with us.
We gave them that opportunity.
There's no one inside that wants to speak to us?
WOMAN #1: No. There's no one to speak.
KROFT: Mm-hmm.
WOMAN #1: So if you'll please just...
KROFT: Are you a nun?
WOMAN #1: No. Yes.
KROFT: Are you as Magdalen?
WOMAN #1: No. I just work here. OK? bye.
KROFT: Thank you. Sister, we're just trying to...
(Footage of Kroft trying to talk to nuns)
KROFT: When we met some nuns on the street, they weren't
anymore forthcoming.
Can you stop for a second and talk us--to us about the Magdalen?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN #2: We've got better things to do.
Mr. McELWEE: I think the attitude at the momemt is to batten down the
hatches and hope to God that the scandals overblow and that
the media take up some other cause.
(Footage of McElwee and Kroft walking near complex; women in complex)
KROFT: Niall McElwee does have contact with the nuns and
the former Magdalens in their care who live in a new complex
just across the wall from his campus in Waterford.
Mr. McELWEE: I suppose, in many ways, they'd be what would
be called institutionalized women.
KROFT: Do you think they're damaged?
Mr. McELWEE: I think they are damaged in different ways, and there are
certainly clear difficulties with some of them rehabilitating
out into the wider society.
(Footage of churches; cemetery; Bishop Willie White)
KROFT: The story of the Magdalen laundries is but the latest blow to
the prestige and power of the Catholic Church in Ireland, which
no longer dominates the political agenda. The Church, perhaps afraid of
litigation and a movement to win some sort of compensation for the women,
has remained silent. The only church official we found who was willing to
discuss the laundries was Willie Walsh, the Bishop of Killaloe.
We had a num tell us stay away from this. What good will come
to these women by having a discussion about this subject?
Bishop WILLIE WALSH: I think we ought never to be afraid of truth.
I think truth is a fundamental Gospel value.
KROFT: How do you reconcile the--the--the values in the Gospel with
the--the treatment these women received?
Bishop WALSH: I suppose in some ways, you can't reconcile the values
in the Gospel with the treatment that some of these
people received.
Ms. NORRIS: the graves are up here now on the right.
(Footage of Norris, McCarthy and Kroft;
memorial listing names of women; Norris at memorial)
KROFT: For now, the women must be content with small victories.
Mary Norris petitioned the sisters of the Good Shepherd in Cork
to at least list the names of the Magdalens who had been buried
in unmarked graves behind the laundry. The nuns complied.
You know, it--it's amazing. You--you look up at the...
(Footage of names on memorial)
Ms. McCARTHY: The names.
KROFT: You look at the names, and it's every Irish-American name you'd
find in a phone book in any city in the United States.
Ms. McCARTHY: Oh, yeah.
Ms. NORRIS: And there must be many Irish-American babies that were adoptedŠ
Ms. McCARTHY: Yeah.
(Footage of names on memorial)
Ms. NORRIS: Šthat their mothers are there. that's for sure.
KROFT: what do you say to those women?
Bishop WALSH: I, who lived in that society, have a deep sense of shame
at the wrong that has been done to them. I would see an
obligation in us to make some effort to make--to make our rep--reparation
for the wrongs that were done to these girls.
KROFT: Some sort of a financial settlement?
Bishop WALSH: I think yes. It's not just a matter for the nuns, or for
the religious orders. I think it's a matter for all of us
in society.
Ms. NORRIS: It's very important that people believe it. that know that
this is the truth. I didn't go through all-through all this
for people to just say, 'Ah sure, that was another time.'
Ms. McCARTHY: Why me? Why did it happen to me, for nothing?
Didn't have a very nice life, did I?
___________________________________________________________________________
they sin by their silence ... when they should have spoken out.
A.Lincoln
- -------
simon
- -------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:03:45 -0800
From: simon@icu.com
Subject: Gershwin's World (2-of-2) 'Fi' Interview
Fi ~ The Magazine Of Music & Sound ~ February 1999
FI Interview
"Herbie Hancock Has Rhythm"
by Jim Macnie
JM: You've recently said you were "much more interested in projects
that have the potential to be events, not just records." What
prompts something like that? Is it necessary to make a big splash
these days?
HH: No, that's not it. It's just that I've made a lot of records that
follow certain conventions in jazz...or whatever genre I'm working
in. This time we were thinking more in terms of reexamining those
conventions, and deciding whether or not we wanted to comply with
them. For example. Every tune on the Gershwin record features
different personnel; there's a wide variety of stuff on there,
totally unlike any other records I've done. Yet it kind of holds
together. I've done "just records," you know? I can do that.
So can a lot of people. My goal is to do things that are difficult
to compare with other recordings. Things that stand in their own
space, alone.
JM: That must take as much time in conception as it does in execution.
HH: Exactly. We started talking about the Gershwin project last summer.
It was brought to me by Bob Sadin, and over the months we developed
it further by talking about it, brainstorming it.
Recording began in June.
JM: What makes people say that Gershwin so eloquently articulated the
sound of America? Would you say that? Why has he become a symbol
of sorts?
HH: I would way Gershwin did that. But I would also say that Ellington
did it, too. They're both innovators. Duke was a great orchestrator
and innovative composer...I would say more forward-thinking and more
on the cutting edge than Gershwin. They both have the influence from
European classical music and jazz.
Gershwin was an incredible piano player--he was influenced by
James P. Johnson. At the same time he influenced James P. too.
I think PORGY & BESS was the inspiration for James P. Johnson to do
his great work, YAMEKRAW. He may have been frightened to do a piece
like that where Gershwin went ahead and did it. You have to
understand the racial history of the United States, and especially
the tome at that time. I'd imagine that Gershwin got a lot more
opportunities than a James P. Johnson.
But Gershwin being the sincere person he was--his heart beat to
jazz--and having had classical influences, writing opera and
musicals and regular pop tunes, his scope was extremely broad, and
that was something that was rare.
JM: That's why you tucked the other tunes in with the Gershwin,
to clarify what the vibe of the era was?
HH: I didn't want to be yet another guy to call anyone the king of jazz,
or cornerstone of jazz. I want to give credit where it's due, but
in its entirety. And that IS gershwin's world.
JM: Basically you're saying one artist can't define an entire era.
HH: Right, right. He was certainly a major figure, no question. One of
the greatest things he did was create "I Got Rhythm." That structure
became one of the two forms in jazz. The other is the blues. And
blues wasn't written by any particular person; it's a folk form.
The only thing written by a real human being is "Rhythm" changes,
and that's Gershwin. He deserves the perks.
And when he did PORGY & BESS, from what I understand, the music
industry wanted Al Jolson to play the part of Porgy, because Jolson
was really hot back then. But Gershwin refused. He knew it had to
be played by a Black man. He had his heart in the right place.
Went to the South, played in Black churches, lived with Black
families, got into the music because he felt it. I don't get the
sense he was trying to rip anybody off. He could have chosen any
subject he wanted for an opera--why would he choose something as
controversial as a slice of African-American life? To me he was a
man of great courage just for dealing with the subject.
JM: You hear anything that's artificial or false in there?
HH: No, no, no. First off, all the jazz I know is very much influenced
by impressionistic composers like Ravel, Debussy...and perhaps
Eric Satie and others. Harmonically for sure, and even from the
standpoint of sound--you know, people like Bill Evans and myself,
at times. The tone quality is closer to the Impressionistic period
in European classical. As jazz became a more virtuoso art in the
1940s, that's when the separation began to happen a bit. With
Charlie Parker and others, the virtuoso thing came to the fore, and
I think that's when the influence of avant-garde classical music began
to take shape in jazz. Parker listened to a lot of clasical.
So did Miles.
I should also add that from what i can tell, the very beginning of
jazz--ragtime and such--was influenced by classical. If you listen
to Scott Joplin, "Maple Leaf Rag," and other compositions from that
era...they seem to have a strong classical foundation, but with the
syncopation you don't find in the music before Blacks started playing.
A lot of music that would have come from Africa was taken away from
the slaves. Whites didn't allow them to to much that pertained to
their background. Still, somehow, it emerged in another form.
JM: You knew Gershwin's music growing up?
HH: We had the sheet music to "Embraceable You," which my mother
probably brought home. I'd been playing classical and could read,
and tried to read it. I can certainly recollect that.
JM: On the record it comes after the Ravel piece, and it sounds like
you gave it a little Ravel to aid the transition.
HH: A lot of Ravel stuff, actually. I tried the Concerto over and over.
Different approaches. far away from what he wrote, but still in
context somehow. But nothing worked as well as what Ravel wrote.
Not that I was trying to top it, but I certainly didn't want to come
up short. Then I tried to weave the things he wrote into my
improvisation--that worked the best.
JM: You and Wayne tear it up on "Cottontale." That's hard-assed swing.
You realize there's a whole legion of fans who'd love to have an
album full of things like that?
HH: Well The NEW STANDARD is straight ahead jazz to me. How much
straighter can it be? It's just the material was by pop writers.
But the whole purpose of that was reconstructing those so it sounds
like they were original jazz tunes. "Cottontail" is the same as that.
As far as I'm concerned, they both stretch out.
JM: Were you in the room when JONI MITCHELL was recording?
HH: Yeah, we were live.
JM: Her voice gets to some really surprising places.
HH: It sure does. If you hadn't seen her name on the listings, you
never would have guessed she's on the record. Noboby guessed it.
How could they? She...blew...my...mind. She had recently sung
an Ellington song with an orchestra on some show in Canada, and
when she finished she said she was on cloud nine. Said that it
stimulated the original juices she had for the old standards that
she did before she got into folk music.
I was talking to her on the phone and she started singing the
Ellington piece, and I'm hearing what is to me this new
Joni Mitchell! My mouth fell open. I wanted to say, "Joni, I've
heard you hundreds of times; we've performed together. I didn't
know you could sing like this!" But that would have sounded weird
or might have been misinterpreted. And that's when she told me about
her influences. She told me that growing up, before she was writing
folk music, she was writing poetry and listened to Miles and Mingus
and Billie Holiday. Of course now she loves Wayne Shorter. So it
was very natural for her to do this project.
BTW: the Japanese edition of 'Gershwin's World' contains an extra song.
"Someone To Watch Over Me", Herbie Hancock - Piano
Ron Carter - Bass
___________________________________________________________________________
"It is becoming increasingly difficult to decide where jazz starts or
where it stops, where Tin Pan Alley begins and jazz ends, or even where
the borderline lies between classical music and jazz. I feel there is
no boundary line."
Duke Ellington
- -------
simon
- -------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:53:36 EST
From: TerryM2442@aol.com
Subject: Re: More on Joni painting
In a message dated 2/7/99 6:42:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, artwear@ncweb.com
writes:
<< For Joni to call herself a painter and blatantly copy a painting and call
it her own I think is low. She obviously loves the impressionistic style
but, I think she needs to go further and create her own impressionistic
style. >>
Sorry for the "me too" post, but..I agree. Joni has the technique down flat.
Now if she could only find her own style. I know we've gone over this before
and I've gotten some flack, but I maintain that her work is just not solid.
Many artists lift *something* from others, but her paintings are blatant
copies of those who painted before her. For what it's worth, I never cared for
her markers and watercolors either.
Terry
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:54:12 -0800
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript
Very chilling transcript, simon. I'd never imagined such things could go on
in this century in a fairly modern country until I listened to Joni's song.
Now I have even more insight into why my Irish American family for three
generations resisted sending its children to Catholic schools. The general
opinion was always that they were sometimes appalled by some of the notions
of the imported Irish nuns who taught in them.
Thanks to an advance copy from Michael Paz, last weekend some of us listened
to Joni's new version of the song recorded with The Chieftains. I can't
wait for everyone to hear it - it is astonishing beautiful.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 19:22:19 PST
From: "Teresa Ritzert"
Subject: [none]
Hmmmm,
I've been doing some thinking today about the 'which songs are about
whom' discussion...ya know, when I boil it all down, I don't care for
whom Joni writes a song because I always personalize them with the men
in my life. I couldn't have survived college in the late 70s without For
the Roses (when my heart was shattered) and DJRD when I was in the full
blossom of love...recent events have taken me back to FTR because I've
felt like 'just another silly girl/when love makes a fool of me'- so I'm
going to focus on the men in my life and the songs that go with them...
...and to whomever said it about the blueness of Joni's songs rubbing
off on one: I concur. I have found at times I can be a little perhaps
too anti-male or love if I listen to too much Joni! There is some
subconscious stuff going on there. Back when I was in college a dear
friend of mine (and we remain dear friends to this day) said that she
couldn't stand Joni (compared to I who played her non-stop) and I told
Anne that when she gets her heart good & broken she'd find she loved
Joni. Well, guess what happened?!?!?!?
Well, off to get ready for another week at workity work...will the skies
ever brighten here in Washington, DC? Too much scandal has left a
permanent cloud-cover in the sky. Where is the sun?
Be well everyone. So glad to have jumped on in...
Perhaps Joni (and a few of us(?)) have a Yeats streak in us: "I have an
abiding sense of tragedy that sustains me through temporary periods of
joy."
But what do I know, "I'm always talking, chicken squawking..."
pax,
Resa
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:03:01 -0500
From: luvart@snet.net
Subject: Re: noooooooJC!
At 06:37 PM 2/7/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 2/4/99 5:52:54PM, badwolff@angelfire.com writes:
>
><< no, I think many of you, though sincere, are innocent victims, scammed
and
>convinced by a few, who, in one or more of these 3 areas, have their own
>agenda and are intruding on and using this forum inappropriately to promote
>their own cause and are not really as enthralled with Joni as you are... take
>heed... pat >>
>
>
I have stayed away from all this up until now. I take offense to your
statement here, Pat. I have never been scammed by anyone on this list. I
have met many people on this list in person. I have found them to be a
wonderfully diverse, talented, humorous, intelligent, witty, sincere bunch
people who share one common thread ... we all enjoy Joni's music immensely.
If we talk about other things here ... well that is because we are human.
Honestly, I would much rather know what listers had for dinner than the
bickering that flares up once in a while here. You seem like an articulate
person, Pat ... why not channel it into something positive? Seems like you
could offer alot around here. I don't post too, too much around here but I
do love to read the posts.
Azeem wrote:
>Can't you just delete the NJC stuff and acknowledge {which you sort of do,
>very grudgingly) what a balanced view would surely reveal - namely that a lot
>of people like the NJC stuff, and you don't have to be into US politics
and be
>gay to appreciate some of the stuff. To me, it's all about whether people
>have got something worth saying and can say it with either wit, or
brevity, or
>lyricism, or insight, or clarity, whatever.
>
Alright now ... a little exercise is due. Get out your exercise favorite
music, here we go ...ready now!?
And one and two NJC.. DELETE!
And three and four ... oh look! there's more
DELETE! DELETE! DELETE!
come on now! Press that key!
And one and two NJC ... DELETE!
And three and four ....
Heather
(you want the obvious, you'll get the obvious" - TR)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:05:31 -0600
From: Scott and Jody
Subject: Re: More on Joni painting
Simon wrote:
> "Imitation IS the sincerest form of flattery."
>
It's not uncommon for an artist to pay tribute to another artist by
incorporating a renowned piece into their own work Credit isn't
necessary if the original is widely recognized. It's assumed the viewer
knows the original was modified,perhaps in a parody or in a different
genre.(if not a tribute)
Marilyn wrote:
> I
> wish she'd put into her paintings the uniqueness she puts into her music.
>
Then Terry Wrote:
> Joni has the technique down flat.
> Now if she could only find her own style. I know we've gone over this before
> and I've gotten some flack, but I maintain that her work is just not solid.
>
I honestly think that Joni needs to take a painting class with other
students. She needs to be rejuvenated!
jody
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:51:00 -0800
From: Mark-n-Travis
Subject: Re: noooooooJC!
luvart@snet.net wrote:
> And one and two NJC.. DELETE!
> And three and four ... oh look! there's more
> DELETE! DELETE! DELETE!
> come on now! Press that key!
> And one and two NJC ... DELETE!
> And three and four ....
LOL! Thank you, Heather, for injecting some levity.
Mark in Seattle
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:52:49 -0800
From: Mark-n-Travis
Subject: Re: The Magdalen Laundries ~ '60 Minutes' Transcript
Kakki wrote:
> Thanks to an advance copy from Michael Paz, last weekend some of us listened
> to Joni's new version of the song recorded with The Chieftains. I can't
> wait for everyone to hear it - it is astonishing beautiful.
Yes, I think this version may be even more haunting than the original on
TI. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to hear it, Michael.
Mark in Seattle
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:00:37 -0800
From: Mark-n-Travis
Subject: Re: joni)
M & C Urbanski wrote:
>
> > My favorite album is STAS (I realize I am in the minority!) The first
> > time I listened to it, I dreamt of the ocean that night. I know it may
> > not be as rich and complex as other albums, but I love its beauty and
> > simplicity. I especially love "The Dawntreader," "I Had a King," "Nathan
> > LaFraneer," and "Song to a Seagull." NRH is another one of my favorites.
> > With the exception of "Ray's Dad's Cadillac" I think the album flows
> > beautifully. I am instantly at peace when I listen to it.
> > -Terri
> You're allowed to be in the minority about what Joni CD's you enjoy! C&S
> is my all time favorite because it's one that sucked me in. I agree with
> "Ray's Dad"s Cadillac". It's funny, the first time my husband heard that
> song his comment was...."She can put anything to music" and began to sing
> to the tune of Ray's Dad's... "Dog shit in the yard". I had to laugh!
>
> Marilyn
My favorite is also Court & Spark for the same reason Marilyn gives. It
was the first one I bought & it really grabbed me. But my second
favorite is probably Song to a Seagull. It has such a comforting, quiet
beauty to it, bell-jar sound & all. And close on it's heels would be
Night Ride Home. And I *like* Ray's Dad's Cadillac! It's fun! And
some of the lyrics are incredibly clever.
Mark in Seattle
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V4 #65
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