From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #64
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Sunday, February 7 1999 Volume 04 : Number 064
The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes
by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery
username: jimdle password: siquomb
-------
The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Akira Kurosawa (NJC) [Joseph Palis ]
Re: Joni songs about Crosby? ["Deb Messling" ]
Joni's friendships old loves ["M & C Urbanski" ]
RE: public acceptance... (vljc) ["P. Henry" ]
Re: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC) [RMuRocks@aol.com]
Re: public acceptance... NJC VLPC [RMuRocks@aol.com]
Re: joni /DJRD [RMuRocks@aol.com]
Re: joni /DJRD [catman ]
NJC (NJC) (Was: Re: public acceptance... (vljc)) ["Steven Otto" ]
Re: Joni and James [Alan ]
[none] ["Teresa Ritzert" ]
Re: DJRD! (was Re: joni) [David Wright ]
Re: JMDL Digest V4 #63 [John and Trudi ]
Re: [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
(NJC) Jacksonville, FLa. the German waterloo ["Winfried Hühn" ]
Box Set Project (Not) [simon@icu.com]
Stuff, Stephane, & Ray Nance (NJC) [simon@icu.com]
Re: DJRD! (was Re: joni) ["Deb Messling" ]
re: More on Joni painting [simon@icu.com]
re: More on Joni painting [Mark Domyancich ]
Re: joni) [Terri Forte ]
Re: cookbook suggestion [AzeemAK@aol.com]
Re: noooooooJC! [AzeemAK@aol.com]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:52:56 +0800 (PST)
From: Joseph Palis
Subject: Akira Kurosawa (NJC)
On Sat, 6 Feb 1999 RMuRocks@aol.com wrote:
> Our library does have a pretty good video selection though, esp. foreign
> films. Last year upon his death I had my own private Akira Kurosawa film
> festival. It was great and I highly recommend any of his films to anyone who
> likes good film.
I second that emotion, Bob! For those people who want to know how great a
genius Kurosawa is, you can start with his KAGEMUSHA or YOJIMBO. Makes you
want to re-assess your fascination for the current crop of films. Kurosawa
is THAT good.
Joseph
(whose favorite film is BICYLE THIEF by Vittorio de Sica)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:10:08 +0000
From: "Deb Messling"
Subject: Re: Joni songs about Crosby?
> I heard that 'The Dawntreader' is about David.
And I'm sure the first verse of Cactus Tree is about him:
There's a man who's been out sailing
On a decade full of dreams...
Deb Messling
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:03:29 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Joni's friendships old loves
I can't find the post but, somewhere in the recent Joni, James, Jackson,
David thread, someone mentioned how she maintains friendships with her
ex's.
I'm guessing here: From what I recall at the grammys for TI when she &
Larry went up for acceptance...She blurted they where getting divorced cuz
she talks too much & doesn't let him get a word in edgewise. I think she
realizes her faults and owns up to them not dumping the hole failure on
them.
However, Is she maintaining a friendship with Jackson? After that ordeal
with "Not To Blame" and his comment that she's still in love with him and
his denial of his abusive actions and so on.
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:02:19 -0000
From: "P. Henry"
Subject: RE: public acceptance... (vljc)
>apology noted and accepted... pat >
patrick wrote:
< well my jaw has dropped. >
why? because I accepted an apology that was rightly given me?!?!? huh?!?!?
>pat, please read this carefully, because, well, i wrote it carefully. >
ok, I shall try to respond carefully as well though I don't understand why you want to dredge this all up again... but if you insist, I will do my best though it seems my words don't get heard or understood very well... but just remember, *you* (re)started it..!
< has it not occurred to you that you owe a public apology to this list? >
no
oh, for:
>1) after a very short period here, saying to all of us 'i don't like the way this list is, so you should all change because i say so',
I never said any of that... though I did express my opinion for which I have been personally attacked contiually ever since... shall I apologize for expressing my opinion?
>2) accusing all of the thoughtful posters who responded of 'rationalization', >
I calls 'em likes I sees 'em, amigo... in the first place I did not "accuse" anyone of anything... secondly, rationalization is a good word for trying to justify something that is inappropriate... I see the long, preachy rants on sexuality, politics and religion as inappropriate here so I used the term... if the term offends you then, as they tell me, delete, delete, delete... but I have the right to express my opinion too, whether you or anyone likes it or not. no apologies there...
>3) and finally, in one breath saying that everyone who disagrees with you probably doesn't even like joni and has an agenda.
again, something I never said. patrick, this is word-twisting, plain and simple. did I say 'everyone who disagrees with me'??? did I say 'probably doesn't even like joni'??? *not!* what I *did* say was that I feel there are a *few* who have an agenda... and I do... my opinion... and I have a right to express it.
and while I'm on the subject, another related statement was made about my posts because I (actually) said also that I thought some (*few*) people are not as enthralled with Joni as others... yesterday this was posted regarding JC that I *have* posted:
paul wrote:
< While I have some mild interest in stories from yesteryear, I am much more interested in what Joni's music today means and what she might be doing next, not what she did in 1969... Personally, I thought... what she was like in 1968 or whenever, to be kind of pointless(?) because I am sure she has grown a lot since then and those answers would be anachronistic. >
now while I don't necessarily think this is indicitave of an 'agenda' but simply a personal opinion which paul has every right to express, (even though I certainly disagree) it does indicate a level of 'enthrallment', so to speak and, at least in part, illustrates my point... I mean, look at it: first we must defend NJC at all costs... and now it would seem that some JC is not all that desirable... interesting... btw, I'm sure this is not a majority opinion either... should we tell paul to stop 'insulting' people by expressing it?
< I tried to make light of it (and ken's response was even better), but agenda is a word with too much subtext. 'the gay agenda' is a nasty little piece of propaganda created to whip up the right wing faithful. your use of the word was extremely inappropriate. (which is about as mild as i can put it.) >
well, I'm sorry, I didn't know that the word agenda had anything to do with 'gay'... I did not, in any of my posts, use that word (gay) nor do I believe I inferred anything even remotely connected with it. I do not agree with you that my 'use of the word (agenda) was extremely inappropriate'... I said what I meant and I cannot take responsibility for associations that people make to the word. in some circles one might talk about the republican agenda or the democrat agenda... in others the catholic agenda or the charismatic agenda... to me agenda means agenda so I'm not really sure what you mean by this last... but I certainly see nothing to apologize for here.
> oh, i was accused of audaciously uninviting you, as well. it wasn't meant as a genuine disinvitation, and simon knows as well as i that such a statement has no power. and colin misspoke when he said 'we voted on it'. no power in that either. les owns this list... i think les' approach to this list has been vindicated hundreds of times.... there's so much about this community that you don't know and haven't deigned to learn >
excuse me, how do you know what I know or have or have not 'deigned to learn'? yes, your post was pretty rude and insulting as a matter of fact...
eg: < i really get burned at phrases like 'eloquently expressed your rationalizations'. that's contemptuous. pat is saying, 'you don't have opinions. you haven't thought things through. unlike me.' >
oh brother! I'll tell you what's 'contemtuous'!: this is (I must admit) masterful word-twisting... who are you to say 'what I'm saying'?!? if I wanted to say that I would... but I didn't! *you* did!
and also: "i suspect rationalizations are, to pat, just opinions that other people have."
all I can say to that is "gee, thanks!" no way this could be seen as a personal insult, right? in fact, overall, your post to me was totally rude and demeaning! why? what did I do to you?
>btw, les describes the list as a place to discuss the music, life, AND TIMES (my emph) of joni mitchell. did you even read that when you subscribed? >
yes, as a matter of fact, I did... and, btw, the slight: "did you even..?" is totally uncalled for! ...as you said, *your* emphasis... the *key* words here are "...of Joni Mitchell"!
> but regarding the audacious disinvitation, there is a kernel of a real serious suggestion in my 'take your marbles and go', and i'll add a real invitation to it. we've fought these njc battles many times. the acceptance of njc as appropriate to the list is just not going to change. if you can live with that, try to affect change by posting on subjects you're interested in, contribute your joni reminisces and thoughts on the music while just ignoring the conversations you're bored by, and especially not insulting everyone who disagrees with you, then please stay. >
same to you... *S* at least here you make some constructive suggestions and I appreciate that, but I wouldn't be so sure that things won't change... not everyone on this list disagrees with me... nor does everyone agree with you...
> ignoring is important. after all, if all 400 of us were in the coffee-house you describe, you wouldn't yell five tables over, 'hey folks, stop talking about anything but joni', would you? i hope not because there'd be a pitcher of beer flung at your head. there are, as a rule, many conversations going on at one time on this list and we all pick and choose our topics. to hang here, you will have to get with that program.
this is true, however, admittedly, this is not a coffeehouse and we all get all the posts... 'the program' as you call it is made up of the opinions of *all* the listers... even mine... see, discrimination does not set well with me and I'll admit I get my back up when someone insults me for just expressing my opinion and I have received a LOT of that... because I am a new person??? is that 'the program' I am supposed to 'get with'??? new people have less rights??? and if they don't 'get with the program', flame on?!?!? I don't think so!
tell ya what, lets both go back and you find all the supposed insults I fired at people and I'll gather all those flung at me and we can compare the lists, ok? I am only one person with only 1/400th of a say in things but I will take my *full* 1/400th, thank you... equal with anyone else! btw, I did *not* "bring down the wrath of Les with *my* (so called) insulting remarks"; how do you explain this?
although everyone keeps saying I did, I *never* said there should be any 'ban on NJC' or "'hey folks, stop talking about anything but joni'" and I *did* say, more than once, that I know people can't avoid talking about these subjects and that's fine... but I think we need to get rid of a few of soapboxes around here and stick to THE subject and that's my opinion if ya like it or ya don't! so tell me, how does being here longer or shorter make one smart or not smart and what in the world makes you think your opinion is any better than mine?
15 years ago when there were only local bbs newsgroups and forums there were political and religious and sexual forums and lists one could join and chat and post on those subjects 24 hours a day if they wanted.... then there was telnet... and now there is internet... and these forums have become *so* numerous they are like sand on the beach... and you can hardly turn around without bumping into them! they are on your local server... on your browser... on your search engines... on your internet email... and on your home page site server as well! then... in '96... there appeared, among all the sand, this *ONE* diamond called JMDL! finally, thanks to wallyB and ultimately to les, Joni fans had a place to go and meet instead of trying to find each other in NJC forums ie: "DOES ANYBODY HERE LIKE JONI MITCHELL" or just going it alone... go ahead and go back! go back to the '96 archive and just see how much NJC you find! people have said it would be 'boring' without NJC... well, take a look and see cause *that's how it was!*
> on the other hand, if you really think that this list and/or les is inherently wrong for not banning njc, you have options. there is no official joni mitchell discussion list. smoe.org, the non-profit group that allows les and others to cheaply maintain female artist discussion lists...
ummm... funny you should mention this particular fact... I'm sure that if that is the intent of smoe, they certainly don't intend these forums to be used inappropriately for these subjects so easily found elsewhere...
...may be a great place for you to create an all-joni-all-the-time list, and you should talk to les and smoe if you're interested. but please stop with the insulting posts. you either belong here or not, but your approach to this subject has caused more pain than any njc thread. we read each others' posts with respect, and it's time for you to do the same.
I see... so you're suggesting I leave? patrick, that's *really* rude and insulting!!! have you discussed this with les? is this *his* opinion? I seriously doubt it! who do you think you are?!? ...and you are suggesting that *I* have something to apologize for?!? you have a lot of nerve! respect?!? "well my jaw has dropped."! why don't *you* 'please stop with the insulting posts' or else 'take *your* marbles and go'?!?!?
pat
Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:23:19 EST
From: RMuRocks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC)
In a message dated 2/7/99 12:16:15 AM Central Standard Time, kakkib@att.net
writes:
<< It was initially
described as a study of music in social activism from the post-Civil War
period through the 1960s and was to include years of concert footage along
with interviews from several artists describing what "activism" means to
them personally. It sounds like a very worthwhile and interesting project to
me. >>
Me too, Kakki - and I hope that my responses didn't indicate that I wasn't
interested in the project. Sometimes, though, I must admit that when I see a
special production about music I often am disappointed and think about what
*might* have been...hopefully this one won't plop itself in that category :o)
Bob
NP: John Hiatt "Feelin' Again"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:34:05 EST
From: RMuRocks@aol.com
Subject: Re: public acceptance... NJC VLPC
Please people, this NJC discussion about NJC has grown a beard and is
incredibly tired...can we pretend we're a fine shampoo and find a "healthy
p.h. balance" ? :~D
(Just trying a little levity...)
Bob
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:46:53 EST
From: RMuRocks@aol.com
Subject: Re: joni /DJRD
In a message dated 2/7/99 1:28:16 AM Central Standard Time,
resaritz@hotmail.com writes:
<< Greetings fellow Joni-philes,
I've been following you all for a bit of time here and decided to join
in the discussion. For some reason my e-mail will not allow me to Reply
to the digest so I am having to send this as an individual message -
hope it makes it.>>
It did, Resa, and a big South Carolina welcome back to ya'!
<< It is interesting that I've seen no discussion of my favorite JM album
and one of the best of all times albums found in rock, 'Don Juan's
Reckless Daughter'. It was so ahead of its time when it came out that
the critics trashed it, but then 10 years later they hailed it as rocks
greatest album. >>
Don't worry, we talk about DJRD a lot; besides, if there's a Joni topic you
wanna talk about, do what you did - start up a conversation! :~) btw, who is
the "they" who hailed DJRD as "Rock's Greatest Album"?
<>
As did I when I taped it off the radio as a "midnight album feature" and
bought it a week later...
<>
Remember that Joni's work, especially this period, is very complex and means
many different things to diffferent people. Sure it's brilliant and reveals
more with each listen, but it may be a series of songs not inter-related at
all, I think one of the reasons it's not discussed much is that it does not
shed its secrets easily. Please don't be put off by what I'm saying, only that
Joni herself realizes that her songs aren't always what folks think them to
be. I'd love to hear you flesh out your feelings on the "concept" you've
proposed above - indeed, that's the reason I initially joined up here
myself...
<< Glad to join in with you all - glad to be a part of the family!>>
As dysfunctional as it may be at times!! :~D Again Resa, welcome!
Bob
NP (Now Playing) John Hiatt "woman sawed in half"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 16:56:38 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: joni /DJRD
Hi reesa-Talk To Me I think is great from DJRD. Also Dreamland and the
instrumental whose title escapes me right now. This was one of those albums that
took a while to grow on me, and it still isn't one of my faveourites but those
travks are amongst my Joni pics of all of her work.
bw
colin
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:43:25 -0500
From: "Steven Otto"
Subject: NJC (NJC) (Was: Re: public acceptance... (vljc))
I think this must be my first post since I delurked about a year ago.
I'm sorry that my first contribution since then has to be to this ugly
thread, but I can't resist making a couple of comments.
It might be a time-tested cliché that "actions speak louder than
words", but in this medium it's words that carry the weight. Pat, you
think you were just expressing an opinion that you had a right to, but
what could you possibly have meant to convey by choosing language like
"take heed", or "the next time it happens, remember I told you so"?
You sounded like you were on a very high horse. I don't believe
statements like that are going to win any converts to your cause, and
I think most people would resent being addressed in that way. (And,
by the way, "soapbox" and "agenda" are indeed button-pushing code
words for many of us.)
I think your opinion would have been a real hard sell even if you'd
been constructive and diplomatic. Like it or not, this is an
established community in which posts with "njc" have proved to be
acceptable to the majority. Since you have online experience going
back 15 years, you must know that proper netiquette in this kind of
forum means observing the tone and content of the communications and
attempting to go with the flow when you decide to jump in. It's just
not well received to suddenly show up and try to refashion the status
quo into something you'd prefer! At least, that's how it works on
every mailing list I've been a part of. And isn't it the same in the
real world? What happens to someone who enters a stable and
satisfactory situation and immediately tries to shake things up?
Ostracism, mostly.
Finally -- and somebody else already articulated this -- even though
there may be zillions of other places where people can post about sex,
religion, politics and everything else non-Joni, this is the only
place where we can discuss those topics in a community of Joni fans.
Please don't underestimate what that particular sense of community
means to us here.
Steven in NYC
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 13:12:38 -0500
From: luvart@snet.net
Subject: Re: Sad news
At 09:45 AM 2/6/99 +0000, you wrote:
>Word just in from NPR that Jeffrey and Joni (the lobsters) have
>died. Presumably their passing was easier than it might have been...
>
Well this IS sad ....
I will play two songs in remembrance of these two:
Joni's "Blue"
and the B52's "Rock Lobster"
"down .. down .....down...."
Heather
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 13:20:49 -0500
From: luvart@snet.net
Subject: Re: Night Ride Home
At 04:40 PM 2/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I see in my TV Times that a TV Movie called "Night Ride
>Home" is coming on Sunday on CBS. Any ideas if Joni's
>song is featured.
>
>
Ken -
I was wondering the same thing as I read the advertisement in the paper
this morning. I'll tune in and find out. The theme of the movie content
doesn't seem to jive with Joni's lyrics, though. I may be wrong.
Heather
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:22:55 -0600
From: Howard Motyl
Subject: RE: Joni and James and other people hidden between the lines
In response to all the speculation about who certain JM songs are
about. I have a problem attributing the inspiration for almost every
song to a particular person. I feel like this kind of discussion takes
away from the creativity and imagination of the writer.
Yes, I know that certain songs are written for and/or about certain
people. But, to try to attribute an entire album (as someone suggested
about WTRF) to a certain person is a bit hard to take. It sounds as if
Joni could not write anything unless she were having an affair, or some
deep emotional (non-sexual) bond with another human, she would have to
reason to write a song, have no fodder for the music mill. I will be
the first to say that everything we write is autobiographical--but I
don't mean to the point that every piece a writer writes is about a
particular person.
Also, I have heard Joni herself explain the origins of "You Turn Me on .
. .": she said that Geffen asked her to write a hit and that's what she
came up with.
Howard M.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:35:45 -0500 (EST)
From: David Wright
Subject: Re: public acceptance (NJC)
Patrick wrote:
> >apology noted and accepted... pat
>
> well my jaw has dropped.
[snip]
> has it not occurred to you that you owe a public apology to this list?
Yes. Exactly. Thank you, Patrick.
Incidentally, an "apology" which says "I'm sorry, but I have
nothing to be sorry for," as P. Henry posted the other day, is not an
apology. It is a conceit.
> 1) after a very short period here, saying to all of us 'i don't like the
> way this list is, so you should all change because i say so',
Yes. The thing that offends me about this is that its clear
subtext is, "your discussion is not good enough for me." Which is
insulting, on a personal level, to everyone who posts to the list.
- --David
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:17:11 -0600
From: Alan
Subject: Re: Joni and James
In addition to the other songs on FTR already mentioned, I've always
wondered about "Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire" and JT's often mentioned
struggles with heroin. Did JT take Joni "down, down, down the dark
ladder"? Did she actually go there, or was this song about her
watching others "Bashing in veins for peace"?
Alan Poff.
(newly resolved to avoid religious and sexual NJC like the plague... as
much as I enjoy, and believe I'm open minded about those topics, there
are simply too many out there who would rather inflame than enlighten.)
NP: Sarah McLachlan - Sweet Surrender
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:41:23 PST
From: "Teresa Ritzert"
Subject: [none]
Many thanks to one & all from the welcome! Glad that I finally got up
the 'noirve' and chimed in. Forgot to mention that on Blue, the song "My
Old Man" is another tune about JT...
Am so "!!!!!!!!" about being a part of this wonderful, lively group!
Am listening to "Rubber Soul" on this cold, damp, Sunday afternoon...
Resa
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:52:50 -0500 (EST)
From: David Wright
Subject: Re: DJRD! (was Re: joni)
Teresa Ritzert wrote:
>
> DJRD is an album about the life of a relationship - side one is about
> meeting and being attracted to one another, side two is about exploring
> one another & explaining oneself to the other, side 3 is about the
> passion of a relationship in full blossom, & the fourth side is about
> the end of a relationship. Brilliant album. Brillian music. Brilliant
> lyrics. Joni at her best.
Hi, Resa, thanks for the post! I'm amazed by the structure of
DJRD as an album, too, as well as its lyrics and music. Thanks for
writing about it. I hear the album as kind of an "arch" shape, both
musically (in its instrumentation) and in lyrical content: sides 1 and 4
being personal and confessional, sides 2 and 3 more "political" and
outward-looking (Muslims stick up Washington; Walter Raleigh and Chris
Columbus; The Star Spangled Banner)....with "Paprika Plains" and the title
track fusing personal and political lyrics as well as musical styles...
and, at the center, "The Tenth World," where everything personal and
political is sublimated. (And Cotton Avenue is an overture -- kind of a
prelude.) Like a journey to Dreamland and back. The album also has the
shape you describe...I hadn't thought of that before -- like it moves in
several directions at once, or on different planes of meaning.
I love the songs individually too. I think my favorites are Off
Night Backstreet, Silky Veils, and the title track.
> ...and I still get
> something new out of it each time that I play it...
Me too!
Welcome to the list!
Take care all
- --David
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:41:05 -0500
From: John and Trudi
Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #63
Ah yes it's just another Sunday morning...on this ground, one she created or
allowed us all to eavesdrop on... i'm thinking about the woman who made the
beautiful music, the sound the emotion which brought such a bunch of us...
together, for such a long time. I hope she's smiling in a warm light, or
brooding, this a little selfishly on my part because I love that brooding part of
her that brings her home to us. I don't know where her perception came from, nor
do I think, any of us, truly know. It is there. She gave it back and for that
all we can be is, truly, grateful. Lovely Sask. woman, traveler of time may peace
be yours for eternity, keep those tunes a comin yours and mine and all kind...T.K.
JMDL Digest wrote:
> JMDL Digest Sunday, February 7 1999 Volume 04 : Number 063
>
> The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes
> by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery
> username: jimdle password: siquomb
> -------
> The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
> http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
> original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more.
> -------
> The JMDL website can be found at and contains
> interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
> ==========
>
> TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
> --------
> Re: Correction! - Joni songs about Crosby? ["Kakki" ]
> Re: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC) ["Kakki" ]
> joni ["Teresa Ritzert" ]
> Damn-o-reetie [Thomas Ross (by way of Les Irvin Re: Joni songs about Crosby? [Ginamu@aol.com]
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:12:28 -0800
> From: "Kakki"
> Subject: Re: Correction! - Joni songs about Crosby?
>
> Mark D. and I wrote:
>
> >> > I've heard "The Dawntreader" is about him
>
> Reading from Joni's interview in Crosby's biography "Long Time Gone" I stand
> corrected. Here's what she says:
>
> {Speaking of her time in Florida} "I was folksinging in Coconut Grove,
> Florida, at the Gaslight South. I hadn't made a record yet, but Joe Boyd
> had taken me to England with the Incredible String Band and I'd done some
> work in little coffeehouses there, I'd come back all Carnaby Street with
> false eyelashes, seguined belts, flashed out. David had just purchased the
> boat that he loved. I remember being introduced to him and thinking that he
> reminded me of Yosemite Sam. I used to secretly call him Yosemite Sam in my
> mind. I don't think I ever called him that to his face, but I might have.
> He mistakenly thought I wrote 'The Dawntreader' for him and was thinking of
> naming his boat 'Dawntreader'. He ended up keeping the original name
> 'Mayan' which was good because it had a history already. I guess people
> identify with songs that you write and think you wrote them just for them.
> David was wonderful company and a great appreciator. When it somes to
> expressing infectious enthusiasm, he is probably the most capable person I
> know. His eyes were like star sapphires to me. When he laughed, they
> seemed to twinkle like no one else's and so I fell into his merry company
> and we rose bikes around Coconut Grove and the winds were warm and at night
> we'd go down and listen to the masts clinking on the pier. It was a lovely
> period and soon we bacame romantically involved."
>
> colin asked:
>
> >Has this title any connection with The Voyage Of The Dawntreader, one of
> the
> >Narnia chronicles by CS Lewis? I loved that whole series when I was child.
>
> Maybe she did. I'm not familiar with this - are there similarities in the
> song?
>
> Kakki
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 19:36:17 -0800
> From: "Kakki"
> Subject: Re: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC)
>
> Bob wrote:
>
> > Marvin can't exactly be
> > interviewed from the grave.>>
> >
> >Sure he could, it'd just be an awfully one-sided conversation...:~D Maybe
> >since Crosby has had one foot in his own from time to time he could make
> >contact! :~D
>
> Actually he got the inspiration for the film/book while recovering from his
> liver transplant in 1994.
>
> You just never know who may be included in the film. It was initially
> described as a study of music in social activism from the post-Civil War
> period through the 1960s and was to include years of concert footage along
> with interviews from several artists describing what "activism" means to
> them personally. It sounds like a very worthwhile and interesting project to
> me. It *may* (and I use that word with trepidation) endear Michael Y. a
> little to know that Crosby interviewed Michael Stipe for the film during
> last year's Tibetan Freedom Concert ;-)
>
> I do think it would be unfortunate if Joni is not included but, of course,
> she has never quite sought to
> "label" herself with any term, including "activist", although she has also
> helped to bring many social issues into the popular song.
>
> Kakki
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 20:45:52 PST
> From: "Teresa Ritzert"
> Subject: joni
>
> Greetings fellow Joni-philes,
>
> I've been following you all for a bit of time here and decided to join
> in the discussion. For some reason my e-mail will not allow me to Reply
> to the digest so I am having to send this as an individual message -
> hope it makes it.
>
> Re: songs for James Taylor: The song 'For Free' from "Ladies of the
> Canyon" is about JT and how they first met. You are correct about 'See
> You Sometime' from "For the Roses", but 'Blonde in the Bleachers' is
> about Stephen Stills, not JT.
>
> It is interesting that I've seen no discussion of my favorite JM album
> and one of the best of all times albums found in rock, 'Don Juan's
> Reckless Daughter'. It was so ahead of its time when it came out that
> the critics trashed it, but then 10 years later they hailed it as rocks
> greatest album. I loved it from the day it was released in 1977 - my
> senior year of high school/freshman year of college. The album is a
> double set (as opposed to the cd which contains the songs all on one cd)
> and the meaning of each side is lost in the transition to cd format.
> DJRD is an album about the life of a relationship - side one is about
> meeting and being attracted to one another, side two is about exploring
> one another & explaining oneself to the other, side 3 is about the
> passion of a relationship in full blossom, & the fourth side is about
> the end of a relationship. Brilliant album. Brillian music. Brilliant
> lyrics. Joni at her best. I've been listening to this album/cd for 22
> years now and I still get something new out of it each time that I play
> it...
>
> Glad to join in with you all - glad to be a part of the family!
>
> Resa
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 21:57:02 -0700
> From: Thomas Ross (by way of Les Irvin )
> Subject: Damn-o-reetie
>
> many thanks for all your contributions! if I don't get a couple songs out
> of this I'll be silly.
>
> Damn yankees!
>
> btw ep (winter is icumen in) is Ezra Pound.
>
> buseth stop and sloppeth us,
> and ague hath my ham. . . sing goddamn!
>
> but leaven it with his
>
> These faces in the crowd:
> petals on a wet, black bough.
>
> I tried some of the Lucinda and don't get it yet, although it's certainly
> not typical country. I'll try some more. The voice seems to have a studied
> weariness. . .?
>
> tough?
> not enough.
> other stough?
> maybe bough?
> wough, wough!
> in lough!
>
> Also must to hear the Miseducation, yes? I liked part of a cut I heard.
> Shades of Stevie and much more.
>
> ok ready for some 2000yearold xxx-rated troubador lasciviousness by
> Bill IX?
>
> tr
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:58:34 EST
> From: Ginamu@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Joni songs about Crosby?
>
> In a message dated 2/6/99 8:15:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Harpua@revealed.net writes:
>
> > I heard that 'The Dawntreader' is about David.
>
> Not sure but the first part of Cactus Tree always reminds me that it may be
> about David Crosby, that passionate sailor:
>
> There's a man who's been out sailing
> In a decade full of dreams
> And he takes her to a schooner
> And he treats her like a queen
> Bearing beads from California
> With their amber stones and green
> He has called her from the harbor
> He has kissed her with his freedom
> He has heard her off to starboard
> In the breaking and the breathing
> Of the water weeds
> While she's so busy being free
>
> Breathtaking lyrics...probably obviously about David Crosby but a nice excuse
> for me to revisit them.
>
> Gina
> PS.
> I'm buzzing with the brilliant music of Gary Burton and Chick Corea whose show
> we caught tonight at a beautifully restored old theater, The Calvin, in
> Northampton, Massachusetts.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of JMDL Digest V4 #63
> *************************
>
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> -------
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> message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info.
> -------
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> -------
> Don't forget about these ongoing projects:
> FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related
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>
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> -------
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> -------
> Siquomb, isn't she?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:13:33 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re:
In a message dated 2/7/99 3:44:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
resaritz@hotmail.com writes:
<< Forgot to mention that on Blue, the song "My
Old Man" is another tune about JT...
>>
Could be. Some say it's about Graham Nash, though.
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 23:53:21 +0100
From: "Winfried Hühn"
Subject: (NJC) Jacksonville, FLa. the German waterloo
Paul,
congratulations to the US-soccer team on this totally justified victory.
Incidentally, if you see one of our beloved soccer boys running around
town, can you please tell them to go sightseeing instead of playing
soccer? Oh yes, and if they could pick up and bring home some good old
western-style tar and feathers, that would be nice, too. It would
greatly ease and enhance check-in procedures when they get back down on
German soil!
In case they ask for political asylum, please don't give it to them --
we want them here! A "warm" welcome awaits them....
:-) :-) :-)
Winfried
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:11:34 +0100
From: "Winfried Hühn"
Subject: JMDL Gallery (NJC)
Scrolling down the JMDL-Gallery pages, I noticed that quite many people
who have been writing posts to the lists more or less regularly, haven't
put themselves up there yet.
Come on everybody, join the gallery if you haven't done so yet! And,
please include a picture!
Winfried
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:22:45 -0800
From: simon@icu.com
Subject: Box Set Project (Not)
Jim L'Hommedieu writes ...
>__________________________________________________________________________
>I wonder if there's a full-length version of "I's A-Muggin" in the can
>>somewhere? That would be fun! I'd like to hear some of the outtakes
>from Mingus too but I doubt she'd let any of it out ... (She did some
>tracks with a different band and didn't like the way it was going so she
>got the band that you hear on the Mingus album.)
>
>I'd pay money for that in the boxed set. Any other suggestions?
>What era would you most like to see represented in the boxed set that
>is rumored to be a future project?
>__________________________________________________________________________
sorry Jim but i wouldn't look for any Boxed set any time soon.
certainly *not* during Joni's lifetime.
Hits & Misses were very much *in lieu of* any (rumored?) Box Set.
after all, they do provide a career spanning retrospective even
though they don't contain anything that wasn't previously released.
Joni has always looked forward ... she had to be convinced to do
'Hits' in the first place The 'Misses' CD was her price for allowing
Reprise to go ahead.
as for a full-length version of "I's A-Muggin", i doubt it.
for now ~ take care,
- -------
simon
- -------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:23:41 -0800
From: simon@icu.com
Subject: Stuff, Stephane, & Ray Nance (NJC)
Thomas Ross writes ...
>
>Stuff: see also Joe Venuti, Ray Nance, Grapelli ... although in
>general I'm not crazy about fiddling jazz. I kind of prefer it
>screechy.
>
>
>
Tom,
Stephane Grapelli? damn straight. guess i should have pointed out ...
re: DJANGO REINHARDT 'Avec Le Quintet Du Hot Club De France' (BMG M97169)
Grappelli was a member of 'Le Quintet Du Hot Club De France'.
in fact the band was really a partnership, a musical relationship between
the two. the other musicians were (almost) incidental. i don't know of
any Django recordings that don't include Grappelli.
RAY NANCE ? now you're talking. a gifted soloist in the orchestra of
one of the most significant 20th century musicians ... Duke Ellington.
he features prominently on one of my favorite albums.
"DUKE ELLINGTON'S JAZZ VIOLIN SESSION"
With Svend Asmussen, Stephane Grappelli, Ray Nance and Billy Strayhorn.
Atlantic #SD-1688, (1963)
many have heard Ray Nance over the years and not even realized it.
from 'Liner Notes' to: "Duke Ellington, The Blanton-Webster Band"
"In his first featured performance on an Ellington record,
trumpeter Ray Nance stepped forward and improvised a solo that
has since become a classic. First on muted trumpet, he artfully
paraphrases Strayhorn's theme while behind him the reeds step
light and lively (through never on the soloist toes). After the
modulation, Nance opens up, and the burnished sound of his horn
rings out above the rest of the band.
With TAKE THE 'A' TRAIN, Duke Ellington's orchestra unveiled not
just a new theme song, but as major new solo voice in the emsemble."
Man! it just don't get no better then this! This sucker ~ COOKS.
here's what Duke Ellington had to say ...
"Ray Nance never played a bad note in his life, so this makes
him unique among artists who practice freedom of expression in
music. singer, violinist, cornetist, and dancer, he is consistently
a gas! Despite his brilliant solos, he never got a swollen head.
He played his section parts with dedicated teamwork, too, and never
demanded any special recognition for his outstanding performances
in the band. Many is the time, when other members fell short, that
he jumped into a substitute spot. I don't think he ever joined the
gang very much in their after-hours activities and pleasures, but
when he worked, he worked beyond the limit, sometimes even beyond
the call of duty. He is a pure artist at heart, and no trumpet
player ever takes an ad-lib chorus on Billy Strayhorn's
TAKE THE 'A' TRAIN without falling back on some of the original
licks introduced by Ray Nance on the first recording of it.
I knew all of his wonderful, hospitable family very well in Chicago,
where he was born and raised. He joined the band in 1940 and was
with us over twenty years. What else can I tell you about a man short
of stature who towers ten feet above his colleagues and competitors.
There's really pnly one Ray Nance."
High Praise indeed from the Maestro.
for now ~ take care,
- -------
simon
- -------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:47:25 +0000
From: "Deb Messling"
Subject: Re: DJRD! (was Re: joni)
I like your interpretation! I myself have trouble understanding
what DJRD is "about" because I'm too entranced by the sheer sound. I
would go out on a limb and say this album represents Joni's voice at
its best. And as obscure as the lyrical content might be, the music
is so accessible! Isn't it?
> > DJRD is an album about the life of a relationship -
Deb Messling
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:05:25 -0800
From: simon@icu.com
Subject: re: More on Joni painting
awhile back, sherrie.good@chronicle.com wrote ...
>__________________________________________________________________________
>Yesterday I posted the name of the painting Joni imitates on the inside
>of Turbulent Indigo. The one of the woman in an orange gown, sleeping
>on a couch. Cindy was close, she thought the title was "Golden Autumn."
>It is actually titled "Flaming June" and is by Lord Frederick Leighton.
>
>See it here (cropped):
>http://www.geocities.com/~dianasav/Art/FlamingJune.jpg
>
>I agree with JamieJake all the more that this painting by Joni is
>inappropriate for the CD. It is more than fine for her to paint a copy
>of a painting, although it is usually art students who create copies of
>famous works to heighten their skills. But to copy it so blatantly,
>change the background, flop the image ... and not give any credit to
>Leighton ... not cool. I do wonder about it. I would love to hear her
>explanation.
>
>Sherrie
>__________________________________________________________________________
Sherri,
when you first posted this information i couldn't figure out what the
*hell* you were talking about since i didn't find the painting you
describe in the CD booklet. THEN, i realized i was looking at the
Jewel-Boxed edition of 'Turbulent Indigo' and this painting ain't
included there. it's only included in the cardboard Digi-Pak version.
there's another painting in the Digi-Pak that isn't included in the
Jewel-Box version. the one on the right in the center panel, where
the booklet tucks in.
i checked out the URL above and it's clear that Joni's painting is
a copy of the Leighton painting. an exact copy (image reversed).
as for Joni not giving credit where credit is due? ... i can only point
out that she never includes the proper titles or any other information
about her own paintings either. at least not on the albums.
all of the 'Turbulent Indigo' paintings of course do have titles and
these were included in the 'Turbulent Indigo' Promo Postcard Booklet.
Joni's version of "Flaming June" is listed as:
Girl (After Rossetti)
Oil On Canvas, 1993
as for "inappropriate for the CD", well all i care to say is,
"Imitation IS the sincerest form of flattery."
yeah, i know it's a trite phrase. trite but (maybe) true.
FWIW: Joni was awarded the Packaging/Design GRAMMY for the
Digi-Pak edition of 'Turbulent Indigo'. i don't think
this particular Grammy has been awarded to a straight
Jewel-Box package.
for now ~ take care,
- -------
simon
- -------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:19:56 -0600
From: Mark Domyancich
Subject: re: More on Joni painting
Not true. Mingus includes the painting titles.
Mark
>as for Joni not giving credit where credit is due? ... i can only point
>out that she never includes the proper titles or any other information
>about her own paintings either. at least not on the albums.
___________________________________
| Mark Domyancich |
| Harpua@revealed.net |
| http://home.revealed.net/Harpua |
| http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark |
|_________________________________|
"Evil communications corrupt good manners."
- I Corinthians 15:33
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:39:20 -0700
From: Terri Forte
Subject: Re: joni)
I am new to this list and therefore I enjoy the discussions of Joni's
music. I realize that those of you who have been on the list a long time
may be "talked out," regarding albums and songs, but I enjoy reading the
responses list members have.
My favorite album is STAS (I realize I am in the minority!) The first
time I listened to it, I dreamt of the ocean that night. I know it may
not be as rich and complex as other albums, but I love its beauty and
simplicity. I especially love "The Dawntreader," "I Had a King," "Nathan
LaFraneer," and "Song to a Seagull." NRH is another one of my favorites.
With the exception of "Ray's Dad's Cadillac" I think the album flows
beautifully. I am instantly at peace when I listen to it.
I am grateful for this list and the wonderful, knowledgeable people on
it!
- -Terri
NP: Pink Floyd, Wish You Were Here
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:37:39 EST
From: AzeemAK@aol.com
Subject: Re: cookbook suggestion
In a message dated 2/5/99 9:19:58AM, CarltonCT@aol.com writes:
<< Maybe Azeem's dish could be called "Don't Interrupt Risotto".
>>
Like it, Clark! I must confess to being a tad surprised when I realised that
I seemed to be the only one in the cookbook who didn't have a decent name for
their dish.
Azeem in London
Was playing: David Bowie's "Low", helping me get over a mild bout of choler
after reading Pat Henry's post about NJC. I've been scrolling through and see
that a lot of people have replied saying the sort of things I have said in my
note, but what the hell, the more people he realises he's pissed off, the more
he might reconsider his "rightness"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:37:36 EST
From: AzeemAK@aol.com
Subject: Re: noooooooJC!
In a message dated 2/4/99 5:52:54PM, badwolff@angelfire.com writes:
<< no, I think many of you, though sincere, are innocent victims, scammed and
convinced by a few, who, in one or more of these 3 areas, have their own
agenda and are intruding on and using this forum inappropriately to promote
their own cause and are not really as enthralled with Joni as you are... take
heed... pat >>
Well Pat, I have read and enjoyed many of your posts, and I have to say I have
seldom disagreed with ANYBODY on this list as much as I do with you on this
one. For a start there is the sheer effrontery of your patronising attitude
towards "sincere" but "innocent victims". Can't you see how condescending
this is? And that is quite irrespective of whether you are "right" or "wrong"
- - although you are, for my money, way, way off track. I don't want to start
throwing personal insults around, so I will just say that a statement like
"it's happened before and it will happen again because I happen to be right!"
might be construed as somewhat conceited.
I completely disagree that anybody is using this list inappropriately to
further their own agendas, and I believe that it's possible to get things out
of proportion. Fine, if you don't like reading about gay issues or politics,
say so - but don't assume that all of us agree with you, or that we are so
feeble minded that we can be "scammed" by these sinister people.
Can't you just delete the NJC stuff and acknowledge {which you sort of do,
very grudgingly) what a balanced view would surely reveal - namely that a lot
of people like the NJC stuff, and you don't have to be into US politics and be
gay to appreciate some of the stuff. To me, it's all about whether people
have got something worth saying and can say it with either wit, or brevity, or
lyricism, or insight, or clarity, whatever.
There, glad to get that off my chest...
Azeem in London
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V4 #64
*************************
There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more
details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading
-------
JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank
message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info.
-------
The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available
now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details.
-------
Don't forget about these ongoing projects:
FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related
questions? -send them to
Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to
Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact?
-send it to
-------
Post messages to the list at
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to
-------
Siquomb, isn't she?