From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #62 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, February 6 1999 Volume 04 : Number 062 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni and James [evian ] public acceptance... ["P. Henry" ] Her Life, Her Loves, Her Music [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons)] Re: Caught out ["Eric Taylor" ] thank you (VLJC) ["P. Henry" ] Re: Her Life, Her Loves, Her Music [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Dam! [catman ] Re: Dam! [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni and James ["M & C Urbanski" ] Monterey Pop [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni and James [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni and James and Jackson [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: My first time!! JC ["Deb Messling" ] Re: My first time!! JC ["M & C Urbanski" ] Libraries [RMuRocks@aol.com] Sad news ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC) [RMuRocks@aol.com] Jane Siberry Shows (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC) [catman ] Re: Jane Siberry Shows (NJC) ["bern.gallagher" ] Re: Joni and James [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: Marilyn's nuts ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: Marilyn's nuts [catman ] Re: Marilyn's nuts [catman ] Re: Sad news ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: Sad news [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Joni and James or Jackson [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Sad news(NJC) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: Joni and James or Jackson [Mark-n-Travis ] Re: Joni and James or Jackson ["Marsha" ] Re: Joni and James [Randy Remote ] Re: Sad news ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Night Ride Home ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Damn-o-reetie [Thomas Ross ] Re: Sad news [catman ] NJC The Opposite of Sex [catman ] Joni songs about Crosby? ["M & C Urbanski" ] Disrespectful [Anne Madden ] RE: public acceptance... (vljc) [patrick leader ] RE: Infiltration (vljc) [patrick leader ] Re: Joni songs about Crosby? [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Joni songs about Crosby? ["Kakki" ] Re: Disrespectful [catman ] Re: public acceptance... (vljc) [catman ] Re: public acceptance... (vljc) [Mark-n-Travis ] Re: Joni songs about Crosby? [catman ] NJC:My NJC [catman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 02:20:55 -0600 From: evian Subject: Joni and James Ok, dumb question time.... I am still kind of fuzzy about Joni and JT's relationship. I remember reading in the Hinton book about their relationship, but I would like to know how long they were together, and during which years. Also, another dumb question: Which songs specifically are about James that we are relatively sure about? I find it kinda strange that Joni is open about other relationships, but her relationship with James seems to be kind of not talked about. I went through a bunch of JT interviews off the JT site, and basically they talk about Carly, and that's it. Happy Saturday, Evian np: JT Storytellers on tv, dog and cat chasing each other or killing each other in the laundry room, and a snoring wife on the couch. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:37:58 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: public acceptance... to les, marilyn and all listers marilyn wrote: < To Les, P. Henry & all listers: I unfortunately brought down the wrath of Les with my insulting remarks to P. Henry. I did get out of hand with my remarks and I do apologize. I know I would have been crushed by such remarks. "Again I talk to open and free... I pay a high price for my open talking..." Please accept my apologies Marilyn > apology noted and accepted... pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:52:27 -0800 (PST) From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons) Subject: Her Life, Her Loves, Her Music Hi all, I bought the above mentioned little book in 1977, and now Kakki says it goes for $20, (not that I'm into the monetary value side of things) but I paid the $3.95 it lists on the cover. That really makes me wonder about a confession I'm about to make. Back in 1980 I found a vinyl copy of a James Taylor/ Joni album titled "In Perfect Harmony". My guess is that it's, at least some of the concert Joni & James did in London 1970(?) thats on the tape tree ya'll seem to have. As I recall, the front cover was a drawing Joni did of two peacocks, in the same style as the artwork of STAS. The back cover was one picture of Joni that covered the top 2/3 of the jacket. The recording quality was poor to fair, but still wonderful to listen to the interaction between J & J. ( on the tape tree does Joni say "I'm a night owl, baby"?) Anyway, so what do you think little miss ethical did? I call Electra, tell them about it, and send it to them if they would promise to get it back to Joni. Don't know if Joni ever got it or not, but they sent me a check for reimbursement of what I paid and a copy of S&L.(already had it) Of course, I never cashed the check. So the question is: am I an idiot or do I qualify for sainthood? Maybe Angie and I are twins of conscience? : - ) Please don't flood me privately with "can't pass up" real estate opportunities!!!! Later, Saint Penny ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 04:05:28 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Caught out Marilyn really cracked me up by stating <> Ain't it a DAMN bitch, Babs? Preachless.... E.T. NP: Don't Interrupt The Sorrow, damn right! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 09:53:15 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: thank you (VLJC) marilyn wrote: < You know, since I posted my outburst, I've gotten private mail with the same statements/questions: suggesting that Mr. Henry is upset that we are not drooling over him. This is the Joni Mitchell Discussion List not the Pat Henry Discussion List. > thank you Marilyn! "This is the Joni Mitchell Discussion List" is all I've been trying to say! *G* don't know why anyone would want to drool over me... but hey, go ahead and indulge yourself if you must... just try not to get carried away with the NJC, ok? LoL! pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:04:33 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Her Life, Her Loves, Her Music In a message dated 2/6/99 3:53:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, Zapuppy@webtv.net writes: << As I recall, the front cover was a drawing Joni did of two peacocks, in the same style as the artwork of STAS. The back cover was one picture of Joni that covered the top 2/3 of the jacket. The recording quality was poor to fair, but still wonderful to listen to the interaction between J & J. ( on the tape tree does Joni say "I'm a night owl, baby"?) Anyway, so what do you think little miss ethical did? >> How can you be sure that the artwork of the peacocks was dne by Joni? My suspicion is that the art was an imitation. That concert has been broadcast on radio so frequently (I heard it sevreal times and my brother recorded it off WXRT in Chicago as a 7-Up sponsored Unconcert) that I would guess several unscrupulous people have pirated it for profit over the years. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 11:08:39 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Dam! The only Angel From Montgomery I know is on Carly's Clouds In My Coffee 3 cd collection. I love it-her voice is raunchy on it. The only other Montgomery I remember is Elizabeth(my childhood hero) and there was some Montgomery famous here for being a soldier I think. Leslie Mixon wrote: > I have to put in my two cents here... > > "Angels From Montgomery" - "...the years just flow by like a broken down > dam..." > > Saturday, February 6th is Wally Breese's birthday - I'm bringing the > chocolate cake. > > Leslie > > np: Geoff Muldaur, The Secret Handshake - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:12:02 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Dam! In a message dated 2/6/99 6:10:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << The only Angel From Montgomery I know is on Carly's Clouds In My Coffee 3 cd collection. I love it-her voice is raunchy on it. >> It's a song written by John Prine. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:40:13 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Joni and James >Which songs > specifically are about James that we are relatively sure about? I find > it kinda strange that Joni is open about other relationships, but her > relationship with James seems to be kind of not talked about. The songs on For The Roses are about James and from what I understand so is the song "Blue" Pack your suspenders....(See You Sometime) And pour your simple sorrow through the soundhole and your knee...( Title track) Those two for sure, I don't know if the rest on FTR are. I don't know the other details. I do remember seeing a PBS special back in the early 80's of the two of them in concert (unplugged). Anybody else recall seeing that? Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:03:25 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Monterey Pop Being shown on the Fox Movie channel, started a few minutes ago at 6:30 a.m. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:04:01 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and James In a message dated 2/6/99 6:44:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, artwear@ncweb.com writes: << Pack your suspenders....(See You Sometime) And pour your simple sorrow through the soundhole and your knee...( Title track) Those two for sure, I don't know if the rest on FTR are. >> I think "Blonde In the Bleachers" also is about James and he seems to be mentioned in as well as the inspiration for "Woman of Heart and Mind." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:07:32 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and James and Jackson In a message dated 2/6/99 6:44:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, artwear@ncweb.com writes: << The songs on For The Roses are about James and from what I understand so is the song "Blue" >> And someone else mentioned previously, and I've heard it elsewhere, that Joni wrote "You Turn Me On, I'm a Radio" in response to James' "Hey Mister, That's Me Up on The Jukebox." On a different, but similar topic, has anyone heard any background story about the relationship between Joni writing Don't Interrupt the Sorrow" and Jackson Browne writing "Fountain of Sorrow" from his Late For The Sky album? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:29:25 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: My first time!! JC Glad to see there are so many library users in the group! At my new library, I'm the one who buys all the music, and the first two CDs I bought were Blue and Hejira. > When I was at the library on Weds., Deb Messling ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:48:51 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: My first time!! JC > Glad to see there are so many library users in the group! At my new > library, I'm the one who buys all the music, and the first two CDs I > bought were Blue and Hejira. > Deb Messling Not to brag or anything but my hubby & I are real supporters of libraries. At one point we cleaned out CD collection & donated about 100 CD's to our local library. Since I didn't listen to Clouds, STAS, LOTC, and Blue that much anymore, I donated them. I've since gotten another copy of Blue. Really, what a great way to share with people. If you have stuff that you don't read or listen to often, donate it to your library, they will greatly appreciate it! THIS HAS BEEN A PUBLIC SERVICE POST! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:33:12 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Libraries In a message dated 2/6/99 7:51:58 AM Central Standard Time, artwear@ncweb.com writes: << Really, what a great way to share with people. If you have stuff that you don't read or listen to often, donate it to your library, they will greatly appreciate it! >> Second to this! Like I said earlier, my son & I go to the library every Weds. I mean, my taxes support it, why not use it! They have a pretty crappy music section, though...Deb, I don't think *our* library actually spends money buying CD's, rather they just send volunteers out to see what they can find on the roadside! :~) I have donated about half a dozen or so to the cause, the only Joni they have is a beat-up NRH so I'd like to complete their collection someday...you should make all library patrons check out & listen to Blue & Hejira before they can get anything else! Our library does have a pretty good video selection though, esp. foreign films. Last year upon his death I had my own private Akira Kurosawa film festival. It was great and I highly recommend any of his films to anyone who likes good film. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:45:29 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Sad news Word just in from NPR that Jeffrey and Joni (the lobsters) have died. Presumably their passing was easier than it might have been... Deb Messling ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:47:30 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC) In a message dated 2/5/99 9:50:51 PM Central Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << Marvin can't exactly be interviewed from the grave.>> Sure he could, it'd just be an awfully one-sided conversation...:~D Maybe since Crosby has had one foot in his own from time to time he could make contact! :~D <> I suppose I was thinking of songs like "Choice of Colors" that built on the legacy of Sly & The Family Stone & others making 'message music' at the time (1969). Curtis of course was also responsible for "Superfly" containing songs about inner-city black crises, drugs, etc. I guess it depends on your definition of "activist", it just seemed to me that he was a black writer like Stevie Wonder who tried to concern himself with social problems and not just fluff. And speaking of Sly, it burns my butt to hear "Everyday People" being used to sell Toyotas...I guess it's good for Sly Stewart, royaltywise, but the message of this song is going to be lost on a whole generation who'll associate the tune with sedans & minivans. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:29:57 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Jane Siberry Shows (NJC) Hi, I somehow got on her mailing list and thought I'd pass on her performances update. Terry N E W P E R F O R M A N C E S (added since last Pipeline 10) 1. NEW YORK 2. SAN FRANCISCO area (Walnut Creek) 1. N E W Y O R K P E R F O R M A N C E: BOTTOM LINE (25th anniversary celebration) Date: Friday February 12 Shows: 7:30 and 10:30 Type of Performance: 'Writers-In-The-Round' Jane will be one of four guests singing and reading. (Also scheduled: Janis Ian, Cheryl Wheeler and TDB.) Tickets: $20. Call 212-228-6300. (Not available through SHEEBA.) S A N F R A N C I S C O: 2. A New San Francisco 'Siberry Private Performance Weekend' has been added after the Gary Karp evening sold out. This will be a full-event Siberry Salon, held in a wonderful Private Home in Walnut Creek (just outside of San Francisco). Date: March 26 and 27 (Friday and Saturday) Location: Walnut Creek, private home Host: David Michael Dunham Note: Full 3-Events (the other sold-out show was 'concert only' event) Reservation Limit: Workshop 40/Concert 50 Price: $200 (Concert/dinner only, $125) (Car pooling can be arranged by the host if required.) Tickets: https://www.sheeba.ca/loadpage.cgi?id+tickets.html Barter positions available for Walnut Creek event: 5 staff 1 photographer/videographer (hi-8) 1 soundperson with small PA Please contact SHEEBA if interested. Other Performance Notes: *Barter positions have been filled for earlier Siberry Salon shows. *Los Angeles: Location has been changed to a private home in Hollywood Hills. Finger food on Friday night, Los Angeles, is being prepared by Jane's friend/former long-time manager 'The Surreal Gourmet'. http://www.surrealgourmet.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:38:40 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Update on Crosby Documentary (NJC) yes you could. you just need a good medium. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:46:45 +0000 From: catman Subject: Marilyn's nuts Well I got a phone call from from our wonderful Marilyn today. She did sound a bit mad or nuts or even bad tempered. she was lovely even tho she spoke with a funny accent! it was great. thanks marilyn. And guess what, half the converstaion was Joni Content!!!! we chatted about HOSL, C&S, TI, NRH, and TTT and STAS and FTR. We thought we'd leave the NJC for the list. - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 13:48:21 -0800 (PST) From: "bern.gallagher" Subject: Re: Jane Siberry Shows (NJC) Damnit, Terry! I was going to take off from work early on Thursday so I can cash my check so I can rush up to NYC and stand outside waiting for standing room only tickets in the freezing rain like I did the last time she was at the Bottom Line with Shawn Colvin and Victoria Williams and now you've gone and told EVERYBODY! Watch all the JMDLers bump me out of the picture!!! Seriously, though: These shows look fabulous and even if you don't know Jane, you will not be diappointed if you pick up a ticket. And for $20, how can you go wrong? Another very interesting thing is that Miss Jane puts together her OWN website, which I think is so COOL! (although this will change soon.) Go see one of these shows!!! B.- NP - Natalie Merchant - Ophelia for the first time. Not bad. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:04:21 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and James In a message dated 2/6/99 3:44:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, artwear@ncweb.com writes: << The songs on For The Roses are about James and from what I understand so is the song "Blue" >> am i the only one who heard (i think i heard) that "you turn me on, i'm a radio" was supposed to be a reply to taylor's "hey mister that's me up on the juke box" ? the title track of FTR is definitely about taylor ... "now you're seen on giant screens, and at parties for the press..." as is, i have always understood, lesson in survival and blonde in the bleachers ("you can't hold the hand of a rock and roll man for very long...") woman of heart and mind, and, as marilyn says, see you sometime and the famous "pack your suspenders..." line. has she ever been as specific about a relationship with any other guy as she was about james on for the roses? "willy" i know, but that was just one song. james got an entire album. he must have been a very important relationship for the time they shared to merit such discourse. which reminds me, one thing i have always admired about joni is how she seems to always maintain relationships with the men with whom she was romantically involved. james continued to appear on many subsequent albums. i always thought it was kind of profound that she would have james sing back up for her on WTRF's "man to man" - of all songs! it is to her credit, because that is, in my experience anyway, a very difficult thing to do, altho so very worth it if you can manage. as arthur miller once wrote: "you never stop loving someone you loved." one of my favorite quotes. peace, ric ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:35:19 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Marilyn's nuts > Well I got a phone call from from our wonderful Marilyn today. She did > sound a bit mad or nuts or even bad tempered. she was lovely even tho > she spoke with a funny accent! it was great. thanks marilyn. > And guess what, half the converstaion was Joni Content!!!! we chatted > about HOSL, C&S, TI, NRH, and TTT and STAS and FTR. > We thought we'd leave the NJC for the list. It's funny we did talk a lot of Joni Content! And it is Colin with that wonderful British accent! It was really great to hear a real voice from the JMDL! Now I understand why there are the Joni get togethers! Now I can read Colin's posts with that Brit accent in my head! ha ha Thanks Colin 'd say we're both a bit mad wouldn't you? Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:50:29 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Marilyn's nuts M & C Urbanski wrote: > > Well I got a phone call from from our wonderful Marilyn today. She did a NOT should have been in there!!! > > sound a bit mad or nuts or even bad tempered. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:52:04 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Marilyn's nuts > Colin 'd say we're both a bit mad wouldn't you? certifiable I would say! we could alwayus book into the laughing academy together...blame it on the JMDL police! > Marilyn - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 14:39:02 -0500 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: Sad news Probably not. Instead of an instant death they were slowly suffocated instead. God damn Liberals. ;~) Deb Messling wrote: > Word just in from NPR that Jeffrey and Joni (the lobsters) have > died. Presumably their passing was easier than it might have been... > > Deb Messling > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:45:55 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Sad news I don't know how liberals have anything to do with their deaths. Maybe being a liberal makes me not see the correlation? Mark At 2:39 PM -0500 2/6/99, Ken (Slarty) wrote: > Probably not. Instead of an instant death they were slowly suffocated > instead. > God damn Liberals. ;~) ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | |_________________________________| "Evil communications corrupt good manners." - I Corinthians 15:33 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:49:19 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and James or Jackson In a message dated 2/6/99 1:08:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, RickieLee1@aol.com writes: << the title track of FTR is definitely about taylor ... "now you're seen on giant screens, and at parties for the press..." >> I think the title track could also be about Jackson Browne, who also rose to prominence after he toured with Joni during her "Blue" era. What makes me think so is exactly the line that I think Marilyn and ric quote as making her think it was about JT. "...pour your simple sorrow to your soundhole and your knee... and now you're seen on giant screens and at parties for the press and for people who have slices of your from the company." Like Joni, Jackson Browne was a songwriter before he began performing. He wrote "These Days" when he was 15. But unlike Joni, Jackson had little confidence in his singing voice and was very shy about performing in public. He overcame that after taking singing lessons from several people, including Jean Ray of the Jim and Jean duo that Tom Rush mentioned in his interview with Wally B. JT, on the other hand, had already been performing for quite some time, either as a solo act or with his band, The Flying Machine. Plus, while Joni and Jackson reportedly had some sort of relationship during their tour together, "For the Roses" is not so much about a love relationship as one successful but disgruntled professional warning another who is on the rise about the pitfalls of success in the music business. Compared to "See You Sometime" or "Lesson In Survial" or especially "Woman of Heart and Mind," "For the Roses" doesn't have the raw edge of personal emotion fueled by a broken love affair. It's a more distant view of life, and more of her professional life than her personal life. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:58:41 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Sad news(NJC) > > I don't know how liberals have anything to do with their deaths. > Maybe being a liberal makes me not see the correlation? > > Mark I think it has to do with save the whales and all that. Considering lobsters can live to be well over 100 years old, I would assume that their keepers did not keep their water properly maintained. Salt water is so hard to keep balanced in a small container. Well I hope they were at least eaten no sense in wasting good seafood! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 12:29:29 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Joni and James or Jackson IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/6/99 1:08:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, RickieLee1@aol.com > writes: > > Plus, while Joni and Jackson reportedly had some sort of relationship during > their tour together, "For the Roses" is not so much about a love relationship > as one successful but disgruntled professional warning another who is on the > rise about the pitfalls of success in the music business. > Compared to "See You Sometime" or "Lesson In Survial" or especially "Woman > of Heart and Mind," "For the Roses" doesn't have the raw edge of personal > emotion fueled by a broken love affair. Then what do you make of the lines 'I get these note on butterflies and lilac sprays from girls who just have to tell me they saw you somewhere'? To me that indicates there was a romantic involvement and various 'fans' 'just have to' report to her on the object of Joni's affection. Maybe out of jealous spite 'I saw (James or Jackson) with (Carly or whoever)' or vicarious excitement 'I saw him & he's soooo dreamy!' 2cents which ain't worth much these days Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 12:31:59 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Sad news(NJC) M & C Urbanski wrote: I would assume that their > keepers did not keep their water properly maintained. Salt water is so > hard to keep balanced in a small container. Well I hope they were at least > eaten no sense in wasting good seafood! > Marilyn Well I was just thinking they probably kept them in boiling water. As Marilyn said, no sense in letting all that good eatin' go to waste! ;-D Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:37:54 -0500 From: "Marsha" Subject: Re: Joni and James or Jackson I believe For the Roses is a tribute to Judy Collins, whom Joni depicted on the inside cover of the album, where the pretty blonde holds the bouquet. (A lot of folks mistakenly believe that is a self-portrait, but it is not.) Judy made Both Sides Now famous, and Joni made a lot of money from it. "I guess I seem ungrateful With my teeth sunk in the hand That brings me things I really can't give up just yet..." though the line about the male poet sitting in the office trying to get his stuff published does create the sense that this song is dedicated to James or others. RickieLee1@aol.com >writes: > ><< the title track of FTR is definitely about taylor ... "now you're > seen on giant screens, and at parties for the press..." >> not so sure about this, Rick.... Paul sez: >I think the title track could also be about Jackson Browne, who also rose to >prominence after he toured with Joni during her "Blue" era. > Plus, while Joni and Jackson reportedly had some sort of relationship during >their tour together, "For the Roses" is not so much about a love relationship >as one successful but disgruntled professional warning another who is on the >rise about the pitfalls of success in the music business. > Compared to "See You Sometime" or "Lesson In Survial" or especially "Woman >of Heart and Mind," "For the Roses" doesn't have the raw edge of personal >emotion fueled by a broken love affair. It's a more distant view of life, and >more of her professional life than her personal life. This could also be the argument that FTR is a reference to Judy. The portrait Joni rendered for the album was not of the fellas.... Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 13:04:18 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni and James RickieLee1@aol.com wrote: > james continued to appear on many subsequent albums. i always > thought it was kind of profound that she would have james sing back up for her > on WTRF's "man to man" - of all songs! Or maybe she wanted to rub his nose in it? Just a thought, but then again, maybe he just happened to be around at the time. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:20:50 -0500 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: Sad news Well if you remember the story they were saved from a fast and (almost?) painless death, sort of like capital punishment, by liberal dogooders only to face a slow and painful though no doubt very tasty one. PS Don't take the post too seriously I'm a pinko myself. ;) Ken Mark Domyancich wrote: > I don't know how liberals have anything to do with their deaths. > Maybe being a liberal makes me not see the correlation? > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:40:43 -0500 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Night Ride Home I see in my TV Times that a TV Movie called "Night Ride Home" is coming on Sunday on CBS. Any ideas if Joni's song is featured. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:43:10 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Damn-o-reetie many thanks for all your contributions! if I don't get a couple songs out of this I'll be silly. Damn yankees! btw ep (winter is icumen in) is Ezra Pound. buseth stop and sloppeth us, and ague hath my ham. . . sing goddamn! but leaven it with his These faces in the crowd: petals on a wet, black bough. I tried some of the Lucinda and don't get it yet, although it's certainly not typical country. I'll try some more. The voice seems to have a studied weariness. . .? tough? not enough. other stough? maybe bough? wough, wough! in lough! Also must to hear the Miseducation, yes? I liked part of a cut I heard. Shades of Stevie and much more. ok ready for some 2000yearold xxx-rated troubador lasciviousness by Bill IX? tr ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 22:03:52 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Sad news Mark Domyancich wrote: > I don't know how liberals have anything to do with their deaths. My guess he meant that saving them from being boiled actually menat they slowly suffocated anyhow from not being in their habitat. > Maybe being a liberal You hid that well! > makes me not see the correlation? > > Mark > > At 2:39 PM -0500 2/6/99, Ken (Slarty) wrote: > > Probably not. Instead of an instant death they were slowly suffocated > > instead. > > God damn Liberals. ;~) > > ___________________________________ > | Mark Domyancich | > | Harpua@revealed.net | > | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | > | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | > |_________________________________| > > "Evil communications corrupt good manners." > - I Corinthians 15:33 - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 22:10:01 +0000 From: catman Subject: NJC The Opposite of Sex I just got back from seeing this film. I almost walked out in the first 1/2 hr it was so offensive. i am still not sure what i think of it. Ricci was good, never seen her like that. As was lisa. Could someone explain what the hell this was about? If it was supposed to teach something to those who are ignorant I think it probably failed. - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 17:45:41 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Joni songs about Crosby? with all this talk about the men in Joni's life and songs written about them, I been a wonderin'...are any songs about Davis Crosby? and didn't they co-write Yvette in English while he was re-cooping in the hospital after his liver surgery? And.....if she had just recently met Larry while making WTRF, who were those love songs about? She didn't just go into the studio cold, meet him and spew these songs out did she? Marilyn Or we can make a list of every song that was attributed to a lover...ooohhhhhhhh ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:59:17 -0500 From: Anne Madden Subject: Disrespectful I happen to agree with Pat Henry's last post where he stated he is not allowed to voice his opinion without everyone jumping all over him but when it comes to others, no-one seems to get upset. Marilyn and Colin, it's fine to disagree with others but please show a little class in your responses! Anne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:03:33 -0500 From: patrick leader Subject: RE: public acceptance... (vljc) >apology noted and accepted... pat well my jaw has dropped. pat, please read this carefully, because, well, i wrote it carefully. has it not occurred to you that you owe a public apology to this list? oh, for: 1) after a very short period here, saying to all of us 'i don't like the way this list is, so you should all change because i say so', 2) accusing all of the thoughtful posters who responded of 'rationalization', 3) and finally, in one breath saying that everyone who disagrees you probably doesn't even like joni and has an agenda. i tried to make light of it (and ken's response was even better), but agenda is a word with too much subtext. 'the gay agenda' is a nasty little piece of propaganda created to whip up the right wing faithful. your use of the word was extremely inappropriate. (which is about as mild as i can put it.) oh, i was accused of audaciously uninviting you, as well. it wasn't meant as a genuine disinvitation, and simon knows as well as i that such a statement has no power. and colin misspoke when he said 'we voted on it'. no power in that either. les owns this list, and bless him, he chooses not to limit it. i believe in the 20 months i've been here that only one lister has been barred. i think les' approach to this list has been vindicated hundreds of times. so many people wrote about their experiences with other lists. this list seems to keep its great charm through all the debates. the sense of community is strong, and hearing the description of the westcoast gatherings made me so happy. so much like the dc-van gogh gatherings in nov, except it was at a time of lots of joni action (live perfs and the ppv). there's so much about this community that you don't know and haven't deigned to learn btw, les describes the list as a place to discuss the music, life, AND TIMES (my emph) of joni mitchell. did you even read that when you subscribed? but regarding the audacious disinvitation, there is a kernel of a real serious suggestion in my 'take your marbles and go', and i'll add a real invitation to it. we've fought these njc battles many times. the acceptance of njc as appropriate to the list is just not going to change. if you can live with that, try to affect change by posting on subjects you're interested in, contribute your joni reminisces and thoughts on the music while just ignoring the conversations you're bored by, and especially not insulting everyone who disagrees with you, then please stay. ignoring is important. after all, if all 400 of us were in the coffee-house you describe, you wouldn't yell five tables over, 'hey folks, stop talking about anything but joni', would you? i hope not because there'd be a pitcher of beer flung at your head. there are, as a rule, many conversations going on at one time on this list and we all pick and choose our topics. to hang here, you will have to get with that program. on the other hand, if you really think that this list and/or les is inherently wrong for not banning njc, you have options. there is no official joni mitchell discussion list. smoe.org, the non-profit group that allows les and others to cheaply maintain female artist discussion lists may be a great place for you to create an all-joni-all-the-time list, and you should talk to les and smoe if you're interested. but please stop with the insulting posts. you either belong here or not, but your approach to this subject has caused more pain than any njc thread. we read each others' posts with respect, and it's time for you to do the same. patrick - nhimh - ttt, which just finished - -----Original Message----- From: P. Henry [SMTP:badwolff@angelfire.com] Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 3:38 AM To: artwear@ncweb.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: public acceptance... to les, marilyn and all listers marilyn wrote: < To Les, P. Henry & all listers: I unfortunately brought down the wrath of Les with my insulting remarks to P. Henry. I did get out of hand with my remarks and I do apologize. I know I would have been crushed by such remarks. "Again I talk to open and free... I pay a high price for my open talking..." Please accept my apologies Marilyn > apology noted and accepted... pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:36:38 -0500 From: patrick leader Subject: RE: Infiltration (vljc) my buddy ken quoted me: _________________________________________ >patrick, who's been in hog-heaven ever since he got the home-game version of 'the gay agenda'. who'd have thought of infiltrating a music list for an artist i don't even like? _________________________________________ and then wrote >So this has all been a ruse? Boy, the lengths you've gone to to perpetrate your fraud! Imagine flying all the way across the country to see 3 concerts by this artist, then turning around and attending ANOTHER one at MSG, plus several other acts of deceit carefully calculated to leave an impression of extreme interest, even obsession. And I bought it. I looked you right in the eye and traded comments, stories and opinions.... Oh you're crafty! _____________ oh it's worse than that! the whole mission was to get next to brian kennedy! LOL background, folks. kennedy is the incredibly sweet-voiced and incredibly cute backup singer in van morrison's band, and in the course of the three shows in la, i developed a bit of a crush on the boy. as it turns out so did kakki, and a little research has determined that we both have a shot. brian kennedy has been very public about his unwillingness to define himself as exclusively homosexual or heterosexual and ended one interview with "sometimes i don't know which end is up"! rotfl at that one. i was going to try and keep up the reverse metaphor, and say that admitting my general dislike of joni allows me to say how brilliant 'good friends' is, but i couldn't keep a straight face. but if she sang it with brian (and they lost the appalling rhythm track) i might reconsider. patrick - np - no apologies. not a particularly good song, but a very political song. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 17:07:58 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Joni songs about Crosby? I heard that 'The Dawntreader' is about David. Mark At 5:45 PM -0500 2/6/99, M & C Urbanski wrote: > with all this talk about the men in Joni's life and songs written about > them, I been a wonderin'...are any songs about Davis Crosby? ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | |_________________________________| "Evil communications corrupt good manners." - I Corinthians 15:33 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:06:37 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni songs about Crosby? Marilyn asked: >with all this talk about the men in Joni's life and songs written about >them, I been a wonderin'...are any songs about David Crosby? I've heard "The Dawntreader" is about him - based on their meeting when she was performing in Florida and he was down there with his sailboat (schooner?) and they met. He used to take her out sailing while they were there and he convinced her to leave with him and go back to L.A. so he could help with her first album and get her more exposure in the biz. >and didn't >they co-write Yvette in English while he was re-cooping in the hospital >after his liver surgery? Dont' know but it was around the same time frame. >And.....if she had just recently met Larry while >making WTRF, who were those love songs about? She didn't just go into the >studio cold, meet him and spew these songs out did she? I think the songs about him evolved as they were working on the beginnings of the album. I recall reading that they fell in love during the making of it when he asked her to go out to the Santa Monica Pier to play pinball. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 00:23:10 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Disrespectful Anne-I was in no way rude or disrespectful to Mr Henry. I stated that i found it irksome that a person should join a list and then proceed to insult people on it. How may I ask is that disrespectful? personally, I think i could have been as disrecptful and insulting as he. I chose not to. And if you are going to accuse people, do it privately. That way your reply would be private also. Anne Madden wrote: > I happen to agree with Pat Henry's last post where he stated he is not > allowed to voice his opinion without everyone jumping all over him but when > it comes to others, no-one seems to get upset. > > Marilyn and Colin, it's fine to disagree with others but please show a > little class > in your responses! > > Anne - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 00:26:33 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: public acceptance... (vljc) Patrick wrote: and colin misspoke when he said 'we voted on it'. I don't get this. Firstly, there was a vote on the NJC subject, compiled by Lori. Secondly, am I not entitled to say so? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:28:15 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: public acceptance... (vljc) patrick leader wrote: > but please stop with the insulting posts. you either belong here or not, > but your approach to this subject has caused more pain than any njc thread. > we read each others' posts with respect, and it's time for you to do the > same. Well I was going to leave this whole thing alone but I just have to say Bravo, Patrick! Thank you for expressing what I've been thinking. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:31:05 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: NJC The Opposite of Sex catman wrote: > > I just got back from seeing this film. I almost walked out in the first > 1/2 hr it was so offensive. i am still not sure what i think of it. > Ricci was good, never seen her like that. As was lisa. > Could someone explain what the hell this was about? If it was supposed > to teach something to those who are ignorant I think it probably failed. I don't think it was meant to teach anybody anything. I just thought it was outrageous & funny. What offended you about it? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:42:07 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Joni songs about Crosby? Kakki wrote: > I've heard "The Dawntreader" is about him - based on their meeting when she > was performing in Florida and he was down there with his sailboat > (schooner?) and they met. He used to take her out sailing while they were > there and he convinced her to leave with him and go back to L.A. so he could > help with her first album and get her more exposure in the biz. This brings to mind something I was thinking about last weekend when we were in L A & Orange County. I lived the first 24 years of my life in Iowa and have lived in the Northwest for the last 20. So I can sort of imagine what that young girl from Saskatchewan must have felt the first time she went to Florida and then to L.A. Palm trees, ocean, warm weather even in the middle of the winter. It must have seemed like Paradise to Joni compared to the harsh winters of the Canadian prairies. Compared to Iowa, the Northwest is Heaven, weatherwise. But I must admit that warm, sunny weather last weekend sure looked & felt good compared to the wind, rain & temperatures in the 40's that we returned to on Wednesday.... Small wonder Joni has stayed in Bel Air and kept a place on the coast in B.C. Just an observation. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 00:43:25 +0000 From: catman Subject: Irony One evening I commented to John that although the lyric to many Joni songs are sad and miserable(in content not quality!), the music isn't sad or miserable. He is said it was because she understood irony, in his opinion. So what do you lot think? (The only song I can think of which is both sad in word and in music is Job's Sad Song) bw colin - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 00:46:12 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni songs about Crosby? Mark-n-Travis wrote: > Kakki wrote: > > > I've heard "The Dawntreader" is about him Has this title any connection with The Voyage Of The Dawntreader, one of the Narnia chronicles by CS Lewis? I loved that whole series when I was child. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 01:47:22 +0000 From: catman Subject: NJC:My NJC This last 18 months on the JMDL have been very educational for me. Unfortunately, when I joined, I was just coming off the manic phase of my illness and heading for the depression phase. For the last little while, three months, I have been 'normal'. Anyway, as a result of my bipolarity, I have written many posts that were entirely inappropriate. Inappropriate because it isn't within the JMDL scope to share some really personal stuff as I have done! Not only that but it is emabarassing for me to recall some of it now, especially when i know it is available for all and sundry to read on the archives. Mind you quite why i should think those people are different to the 600 on this list i am not sure! Anyhow, as a result I have learned a great deal about people and myself. I have been astonished at the amount of really good, kind and compassionate people I have met. I have aslo been shocked at those that have been really cruel and have used my illness to beat me about the head. Fortunately they have been outnumbered by the good uns. Now I am not perfect at all, I know myself quite well. In all of my posts, i have tried hard not to be insulting or rude, not always successfully, no matter what the provocation. I do not feel all others give the same consideration. I have been shocked at some of the mud flinging that goes on. Recently this list has become an uncomfortable place to be for me. I enjoy a debate, i have joined in on enough of them, but it ceases to be fun when it degenrates into nastiness. i cannot understand why people cannot disagree with eachtother without tearing eachother down. I also find it despicable that people should write reasonably to the list yet write with venom privately. I am aware that when i am off the wall I am difficult. ask john he has lived with me and my illness for almost 18 years! And whilst i take personal responsiblity for all that I do, it isn't always easy when one cannot remember or is too out of it to understand anything- then my fingers run away and before I know it I have sent off a post i shouldn't have. However, despite all that, I have never felt as uncomfortable as I do now about all this fighting. Maybe because I am in my right mind phase and therfore am more tuned in. I'd be a fool to promise I won't go off the rails again and post endlessly or too personally, but I sincerely hope I won't. On thing i have gained from this list; I no longer feel ashamed of my condition nor do I feel inferior to so called normal people. i have seen how 'normal' people behave thru this list and boy! what an eye opener it has been! So I shall continue to be a part of this wonderful list. You never know, when the twilight zone hits me again, perhaps those that have got to know me well, will drop me a line and warn me'hey colin, you're losing it' and I might take notice! love colin - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #62 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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