From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #51 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, February 1 1999 Volume 04 : Number 051 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- lobster&demo [Thomas Ross ] Re: Book with Joni content (NJC) ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) ["P. Henry" ] Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: in praise of hejira, (was: the man hater's club) [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: NJC (NJC) [catman ] Joni and O'Keefe [Lisa Kowalski ] Webster's Definition of List [DKasc13293@aol.com] New midi files ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Private morality vs. public morality (NJC) ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: NJC (NJC) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: luthier [DreamZvil@aol.com] NJC: Bryan Thomas watch ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Am I a bad girl? (joni content) ["Angela Takats" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:35:55 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Ross Subject: lobster&demo I think it was Tristan Tzara or one of those dada cats who walked his pet lobster on the Champs d'Elysees. No, the beats didn't invent bohemianism. I have a demo tape of new songs to bounce off some alert ears. Anybody want to help? thanks Tom Ross ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 02:37:47 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Book with Joni content (NJC) Kakki wrote: <> Please never feel that you have to apologize for anything, Kakki. Even when I notice typos I generally get the gist. I am equally guilty but who really cares anyway? After all, isn't the www just Short Attention Spam Theater? E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:38:46 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) hey gang, apologies for the delay in responding... From: catman: < The NJC thing was sorted out ages ago, Pat and it was voted to STAY. It is part of why this list is so good. > "voted"??? I've yet to see anything voted on here... just how is that done??? perhaps it is time for a recount! From: Marilyn < How boring this group would be if one posted "Joni is the world's best...." and 400 posted back "yeah what you said". Truthfully, unless some theme or question comes up about Joni, there is nothing to talk about. How many times can we hash over "Song to a Seagull" being the title of the first LP or what does SIQUMB mean? When we ask for interpretations to "Passion Play" gee sorry it's gonna get religious cuz that's the theme of the song...BLAME JONI! As far as other stuff, I don't think any of us live in a JONI vacuum. I liked reading the profiles, I like reading Colin's or Kakki's or Ric's or anybody's opinions on stuff. How boring Joni's music would be if she didn't pay attention to things that went on in the world! The point is we are a group of people that come together with a common admiration for Joni, and we each bring our lives and backgrounds to the table and that is COOL! > ok... you make some good points... actually, I think of you guys like the gang back at the coffehouse... all drawn to Joni but, between sets and afterward? MAN, you guys could always sure talk a blue streak! (this is like listening to all the conversations at all the tables at once! *L* I suppose I should be grateful that no one's going off about Nietzsche!) ....granted, we are all other things besides Joni fans... but isn't she really the reason we are all here? you say: "How boring Joni's music would be if she didn't pay attention to things that went on in the world!"... well, I'm not sure I could agree that her music would be boring under any circumstances, but I won't be a jerk... I know what you mean... but personally I would have to respond that, for me, "How boring the things that go on in the world would be if it weren't for Joni's music!" *S* From: MDESTE1 The problem with this answer Marilyn is that it would be nice to think everyone is totally open minded but very few people are. Of course anyone can get away with posting "politically correct" views but what if someone started to post far right wing stuff or anti-liberal-cause stuff. Im sure NO ONE would consider it cool. No ONE would want it cluttering up the cafe in spite of the fact it may be supported by fact. ie everyone ususally says they are open minded but very few are. For that reason I for one believe that all political or religious views (UNLESS they are specificly related to a Joni song) should be respectfully off limits. The reason for this is simple. political and religious (as well as other) views are too personal and people have a tendency to "fight" for such views. The debate quickly degenerates into name calling and venom. Like two people having a spat at a party it intrudes on everyone else who may not be inclined to even want to discuss the subject yet everyone is forced to tolerate the spat. I would urge everyone to forego the temptation to branch off into subjects and threads unrelated to the Art of Joni. Like the person said there are infinite places to discuss heavy politics or religion. there are even private chat rooms where you can let the argument RAGE. ...a lot better than I could have expressed it... *S* and an excellent point! and conversely, would you go to a gay/Christian/liberal/Bhuddist/str8/conservative forum to discuss Joni?!?!?!? no... I think maybe you'd come here where you can *really* get into it! From: Bob: < ...I thought it was ironic that *Pat* of all people posted his displeasure with NJC threads. I mean, I tire of the NJC sometimes, and sometimes I do as Les suggests, and that's try and start a Joni thread. Last week I did that with a question about Yvette and all of a sudden there was a nice little totally JC thread. I'm saying this not to pat myself on the back, but again to state what I think is an irony. Pat, you are in a unique position to start threads as an early buddy of Joni's, memories/reminiscenses of those Michigan club days...surely there's a wealth of treasure there you can share with us. The next time you see a strand of posts that aren't saying what you want to hear, open up the storybook and spin us a good "folk"-tale. You certainly have as captive an audience as you'll ever hope to have... Bob bob, I'd have thought you, perhaps more than anyone, would have noticed that I've been doing that... without much effect. ...guess I haven't been around the list long enough yet... yes I do have a wealth of memories from those days... it just seems somewhat absurd that on the only Joni Mitchell list on the web I have to virtually interrupt the conversation to share them... I don't mean in any way to put anyone down , especially you or those (few) who've shown a genuine interest, but this has been bothering me... so much so that I tried posting some NJC to see what would happen and ya know what? NJC will fill yer mailbox in a hurry! please understand me... I'm only going on my second month on this list and I really enjoy the JC posts and I'm grateful for the acceptance many have shown me... I am also very grateful to have found/contacted two old friends from those days who also knew Joni... mike heath and brian moss. brian was the manager of the Cellar (and my best friend) and mike was an art student who painted part of the mural that covered the walls and a singer/songwriter there too. when mike shared to the list about the Cellar recently, not only did he verify what I'd been saying to those who thought I was full af baloney, but he shared some of his own stories as well... I saw very few public responses to his 3/4 long posts and he knew Joni even earlier than I did... since '65! (I was waiting for someone to ask *him* about Kilauren... I have not asked him myself but it is likely, considering how close Port Huron is to Detroit, that he may have actually seen Joni with her child... ) but let someone throw out a post that clinton is a liar... or that he's not... or out themself... or flash their bible/koran/whatever, and suddenly you've got 2/3 issues of the digest in one day! so where's the relavence?!? sorry bob, didn't mean to go off on *you* like this... you're always ready on the JC... but you know how I am... once I get going, I can't shut up! LoL! ------------------------------ From: Susan C. (with a numb finger from hitting "Delete" so often) << if I want to discuss those things I will go there... and if you want to discuss those things, those places are not hard to find... >> Thanks, Pat....well-put! *S* @ Susan... From: Don Okay, let's re-spin this thread a bit, and take a look at some of Joni's work, and how it incorporates either the "sexual", "political" or "religious." Listening to 'Hejira' has brought me about as close to a 'religious experience' as I feel comfortable with. Then there's the epiphany of seeing the woman live on stage -- which falls nothing short of a cleansing in holy waters. "Beat of Black Wings" welds all three of these subjects together at once, in a protest of war ... an indictment of governments that take young men and teach them to kill ... a comforting of the sexually and parentally abandoned ... wrapped up in the haunting metaphor of the Bell Huey as 'Charlie Angel.' Even if one were to skip the 'overtly' religious songs (such as Magdalene Laundries), overtly political songs (such as "Big Yellow Taxi" or "Fiction") and the overtly sexual (such as "Strange Boy" or "Crazy Cries ..."), the overtones would still resonate in the handfull of Joni titles you'd have left over. Don Henley, when asked by an interviewer why he hadn't put out a new album in a while, answered to the effect "I've got to live my life so I'll have something to write about ..." I submit that these discussions of sex, politics and religion serve to educate us so that we may begin to see new things in the amazing work of Joni Mitchell. Don, all I can say is right on! and it would be great if that's the way it was... but, Joni's music touches on all sorts of things in life... not just sexual, political, religious... From: Susan C. Howdy.... It's not really the "NJC" subject matter (hey, I do plenty of that!)...it's just that I get overwhelmed by the sex/politics/religion thang every time I turn on the news! I turn to the Joni list for (usually) an "antidote" to all that. :) Just here for the love, Susan C. anoither good point! thanks susan! *S* From: PAUL < Name a subject, please, that is "unrelated to the Art of Joni." As you have already read, many of us contend that there is none. That is part of the attraction to Joni's music/lyrics to many of us, that often in subtle ways she reaches every corner of society, whether it be the Religious Right or the Radical Left. > thanks paul... well stated... and I repeat: "Joni's music touches on all sorts of things in life... not just sexual, political, religious..." From: colin < Sometimes there have been 'heated' discussions, when people just cannot resisit attacking the person who wrote instead of what was written. In any groupp of humans that will always happen. I do get pissed off with people joining an established list and then bitching about it's content. I know I can be cheeky but I think this is just rude and ill mannered. > ok, colin... read what you just wrote... you talk about people attacking the person rather than the content and in the same breath turn right around and attack (obviously) *me*, calling me rude and ill-mannered! I think *your* manners could use some work! (as well as your logic!) would you 'bitch' about the content if you went into a forum to discuss sexuality and found everyone talking about recipes?!? < However, the times when the complaints about NJC have come pouring in has always been when there has been a 'gay' thread going. Coincidence? Before anyone goes shouting 'paranoia' there are sevral on this list who have noted the same. Just recently there has been a 'gay themed' thread and..... > true... and, generally speaking, gay/other sexuality forums are steered way clear of by people who do not wish to discuss/hear about those issues... that's why there's a label on the front door telling you what the content is... no one in their right mind who was not interested/sympathetic re: those issues would go in there and 'bitch about the content'... because that's why everyone is there!; the same goes fo political and religious forums... everyone who goes in there knows by the name of it what's going on and they choose to enter and get involved... or not! *this* forum has 'JONI MITCHELL' plastered over the front door and yet that is not really representative of what is here. because of that I particularly take issue with your statement: "I do get pissed off with people joining an established list and then bitching about it's content"... think about what you're saying! nobody who joins this list is looking for a forum on any of these three issues... nobody! are you saying 'the hell with the new people'?!? what exactly do you mean by this comment? what do you expect new people to say? people come to this list looking for Joni Mitchell and they get that but they also get things they didn't come here looking for... things that, if they *were* llooking for, they'd go elsewhere; and, according to you, they, we, I should just shut up and take it... well, colin... I don't think so! I don't think we are giving a good , respectful (to her and to her fans) representation of Joni by doing this... I'm not saying these things should never be discussed at all, that's impossible... but, as others have commented, just that we at least *try* to stay on the main topic... Joni! From: Deb And count me for the opposite view. I get really ticked off when NJC is not labelled as such, but when I troll through my NJC postings, it's the sex/politics/religion stuff that I find most interesting! well, if that's the case, deb, you can find a *lot* better forums on those subjects elsewhere.... From: Steve: I've been mostly lurking lately, cause there hasn't been too much on the list that's interested me, but I'm going to invoke my privilege as a scarred veteran of past jmdl-wars to make some observations. First Pat Henry wrote: >if I want to discuss those things I will go there... and if you want to >discuss >those things, those places are not hard to find... Then Marcel wrote: >Like two people having a spat at a party it intrudes on everyone >else who may not be inclined to even want to discuss the subject yet everyone >is forced to tolerate the spat. Then Colin wrote: > However, the times when the complaints about NJC have come pouring in has > always been when there has been a 'gay' thread going. Coincidence? Sigh. Been there. Done that. The big problem with sexual, political and religous threads, over the years that I've been part of this list, is that, inevitably, someone points a finger and takes a somewhat abstract discussion and turns it into you vs me, straight vs gay, Christian vs pagan, Democrat vs Republican...you're right, I'm wrong. It is so inevitible. It is so boring. It is such a waste of time. It is so depressing to see us go through this again. Thankfully, I have the jmdl-Van Gogh gathering to look forward to this weekend, with jmdl friends gay, straight, Christian, pagan, and, for all I know, Democrat and Republican. I treasure this list most for the friends I have made. hi steve! nice to meet you! thanks for coming out of lurking... I suppose, if things don't change, I shall soon get tired of the bickering and keep quiet myself like you, but being new, well... you know the drill. *L* I apologize for being the one to dredge this all up again and I thank you for this most reasonable post... and, as you probably surmise, I will likely not be the last. your comments are most enlightening... I wonder just how many 'veterans' there are like you... weary of fighting for what is rightfully theirs and contenting themselves with private mailings and keeping their thoughts to themselves because they know by experience it will do no good to speak out. just give me time... I'm learning and I'm sure I'll get the hang of it soon... and the oppression will continue... pat http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 02:07:15 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Joni the lobster Gellerray@aol.com wrote: <> If so, then I expended my width long ago. But, then, there is always length. And I wouldn't worry about that. Please expound to your heart's content! My mouth always waters for some Maine lobster.... E.T. NP: Madonna, Ray of Light ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:25:05 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) - ---------- > From: P. Henry > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) > Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 5:38 AM > > hey gang, > apologies for the delay in responding... (SNIP) pat Pat, all I can say is.. I'll try to kee-P myself open up to you, and approve your self expression, i need t-H-at too, I n-E-ed your co-N-fidence, baby and the gift of you-R extra time, in turn i'll give Y-ou mine. Jericho Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:35:21 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) Pat wrote: and the oppression will continue... but isn't that exactly what you are trying to achieve? Oppressing those that write NJC and telling us what we should and should not write? And all when most of these people have been around for a long time and you have been around just a few weeks? I was one of the people that supported you and there have been few posts since from you about Joni. Call me illogical if you will, but stating that I find it rude and ill mannered, referring to your original complaint, is a far cry from stating I find YOU ill mannered etc. Just because i am offended by a behaviour, does not generally lead me to make judgements about a person. In this case I didn't judge you but what you wrote. However, what I was referring to, in general, was people getting nasty about posters. I am sure you would agree that isn't nice! You know, and maybe I am wrong, but I do find it irksome to say the least, that a person who has recently joined the list should write two such mails telling us how this list should be! It has existed for years as is and maybe we don't need you to tell us how it should be. As for the 'vote', well Lori did it on our behalf quite a while ago and it was determined by the majority that as long as posts were labelled NJC, those posts should stay. Les, the owner of this list, has always done an excellent job of 'moderating' this list. It runs smoothly and is very interesting to most. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:41:14 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) In a message dated 1/31/99 4:40:22 AM Central Standard Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: << sorry bob, didn't mean to go off on *you* like this... you're always ready on the JC... but you know how I am... once I get going, I can't shut up! LoL! >> Hey Pat, I didn't feel like you were "going off" at all...but I still say if you're riding this crazy bus and don't like the direction it's going, hop in the driver's seat and steer a little - believe me, I too am amazed that your posts get so few responses, but hey, what can we say to them really except "Wow, man, KEWL!" *S* By the same token, I asked you about Joni & Gordon Lightfoot and never got a response...I saw where someone else asked whether or not you & Joni ever had more than a simple "friendship" type of relationship, and I never saw where you addressed either of these questions, so I don't see as you're living in a vaccuum out there. But sometimes it *IS* important for us to speak on a variety of topics to create an identity out here... Just my 2 cents... Bob NP: Michael Hedges "Bensusan" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:10:28 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC (NJC) In a message dated 1/31/99 8:37:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << but I do find it irksome to say the least, that a person who has recently joined the list should write two such mails telling us how this list should be! It has existed for years as is and maybe we don't need you to tell us how it should be. >> If you wren't rude and ill-mannered before, this response certainly is. So maybe he has just as much right as anyone to tell us, regardless of how long he's been here, so maybe we ought to just listen and learn, for a change, instead of getting our back up. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:13:58 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) marilyn wrote: < > From: P. Henry > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) > Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 5:38 AM > > hey gang, > apologies for the delay in responding... (SNIP) pat Pat, all I can say is.. I'll try to kee-P myself open up to you, and approve your self expression, i need t-H-at too, I n-E-ed your co-N-fidence, baby and the gift of you-R extra time, in turn i'll give Y-ou mine. Jericho Marilyn > *S* pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:04:42 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Gross Subject: Joni the Lobster on NPR I sent this one out Saturday night, but haven't seen it yet. So here it is again: Check out the story in Real Audio http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/wesat/19990130.wesat.08.ram Brian === "No paper thin walls No folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:34:02 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: in praise of hejira, (was: the man hater's club) In a message dated 1/30/99 1:48:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, AzeemAK writes: << The second part, about chewing the last etc, I knew very well, but for some reason that day I suddenly remembered the line about pawn shops, and realised that it had to come before, and how perfect a simile it is. Then to follow it up with "Carrion and mercy", well that's just genius... >> isn't it??? duane's post, in which he made a somewhat obscure reference to furry, is what triggered my thinking about the song, which i have always admired, and that has led me to examine hejira again, as a whole, for the first time in a long time, which i have been kept busy with for the last couple of weeks. i have always put DJRD on the top of my masterpiece list for joni's work - just my personal preference i guess, but i always thought it was really her seminal album, the one with the most reach and drama, and, if i am not mistaken, the one that changed her career and her life - as it was DJRD that brought her to the attention of charles mingus. but in taking a new look at hejira, i have to give it a nod, and acknowledge that, lyrically anyway, it is just without peer. there are so many lyrical gems on this album, that even if you were to isloate one of them and discard all the rest, it would still elevate this work to a level i cannot think any other album, by joni or anyone else, can even approach let alone surpass! is this hyperbole? i think not! "white flags of winter chimneys..." "a thousand glass eyes were staring in a cellar full of antique dolls..." "where the players lick their wounds and take their temporary lovers, their pills and powders to get them through this passion play..." "each so deep and superficial between the forceps and the stone..." "in a highway service station, over the month of june, was a photograph of the earth taken coming back from the moon. and you could not see a city on that marbled bowling ball, or a forest or a highway, or me here least of all..." "and i've got the apple of temptation and a diamond snake around my arm..." "he picks up my scent on his fingers while he's watching the waitresses legs..." "we got high on travel and we got drunk on alcohol, and on love, the strongest poison and medicine of all..." "cheap guitars, eyeshades and guns, aimed at the hot blood of being no one...." i could go on and on...and i guess i have. indulge me...i have really been immersed in this album ever since duane made me think of it again. NO ONE writes lyrics like those!! no one to my knowledge ever has, except MAYBE leonard cohen. maybe, someday someone else will, but i can't imagine it. and so i have to agree with what turned out to be the consensus of the list. hejira really is unsurpassed. it is a volume of pop/jazz poetry, set to music. and if she had never done anything else before or since, her place in music history would be secure. so my joni top five gets revised, with hejira moving to the top spot...it is a testament to this album's greatness that 20 odd years after its release there are still things to discover in it, and its power to astonish is undiminished. (i think i should be hired by this list as the preacher to the choir..."praise you joni!" i have the call!) peace...ric ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:33:52 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC (NJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/31/99 8:37:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, > catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: > > << but I do find it irksome to say the least, that a person who has recently > joined the list should write two such mails telling us how this list should > be! It has existed for years as is and maybe we don't need you to tell us how > it should be. >> > > If you wren't rude and ill-mannered before, this response certainly is. You could have knocked me over with a feather! Sharing my opinion was in no way rude. There is a saying about the pot calling the kettle black which came immediately to mind! Have you had a sudden conversion?Do I take it Paul that you will no longer post NJC? > So maybe he has just as much right as anyone to tell us, regardless of how > long he's been here, so maybe we ought to just listen and learn, for a change, > instead of getting our back up. > Paul I - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:51:02 From: Lisa Kowalski Subject: Joni and O'Keefe I just finished reading O'Keefe The Life Of An American Legend by Jeffrey Hogrefe(if you love O'Keefe this is a must read) and I thought you all might like to know that Chapter 26 is all about Joni Meeting O'Keefe at her home in Abiquiu,New Mexico. It explains how Joni and her boyfriend at the time drove up to O'Keefes house and left her a limited edition book of her drawings and a copy of Hejira.It then goes on to explain how Juan Hamilton(O"Keefes assistant/caretaker)sent Joni a formal invitation to visit with O'Keefe and gives an indepth account of that visit. My favorite part was Joni telling about O'Keefe being interviewd in Artnews magazine: The interviewer asks O'Keefe,if you were to come back in another life what would you come back as? and O'Keefe replies"I would come back as a blond soprano who could sing high clear notes without fear."I wonder who she could be referring to?! Anyway its a great book and a great chapter and I dont want to give too much of it away so if you are so inclined buy the book and enjoy! Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:52:12 EST From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Webster's Definition of List In a message dated 1/31/99 11:39:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickieLee1@aol.com writes: "Carrion and mercy", well that's just genius... isn't it??? duane's post, in which he made a somewhat obscure reference to furry, is what triggered my thinking about the song, which i have always admired, and that has led me to examine hejira again, as a whole, for the first time in a long time LIST according to Webster: 1. Wish, choose 2. Inclination, craving 3. To listen to 4. A band or strip of material 5. To cut away a narrow strip 6. A simple series of words or numbers 7. To make a list 8. To lean to one side 9. A deviation from the vertical My point: Just as Ric indicates that my thoughts on Furry Sings the Blues made him revisit Hejira, so too I admit to the influence of this list that wasn't around a few years ago. I was just a Joni fanatic in my own right, unaware of anyone else out there with the deep appreciation of the work. It's a two-fold phenomenon. The comradery of others and the shared information indeed does influence one's thoughts. I don't know Joni Mitchell personally, however I would safely speculate that she is probably very comfortable as an isolationist with her cats, kitchen and sunsets. Do most of us here identify with that personality trait, is my question. What impact of having community here to discuss the material has had, if any on our appreciation of the work? No the isolationist here, I'm not sure if I would not of had a less difficult time digesting TTT had I not had all the opinions, prior knowledge and information before it's release. I'd take the CD home and listen to it in solitude and develop my opinion. This of course is all water under the bridge, hindsight, and evolution. Honestly, I don't think it did make it more difficult for me, but I know it did for others. My original thought for a title to this post was Two Ships Listing in the Night. After the heyday of the seventies, it became passe to discuss Joni Mitchell openly. Even, it seemed, in open minded artist communities. Like "Let's move on" was the prevailing attitude. So it wasn't just the business heads saying, "who's the next one in the nest?" it was also the creatives. I was honestly turned off, because I could really see the work of Joni Mitchell as having a staying power (based in the classics) which had an integrity that should, could and would endure. So we follow this elusive, uncompromizing old cat lady, and we either identify with her still, or don't. It's just that we safely post in isolation casting thoughts out on the web, with answers coming back. . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:24:49 -0500 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: New midi files Just a note to let you know that there are 3 new midi files on the midi page. http://www.total.net/~slarty/midi.htm - -Same Situation - -Taming The Tiger - -Last Chance Lost All 3 came from Damien in Australia and are live versions. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:05:23 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Private morality vs. public morality (NJC) Dear friends, don't worry -- I do not intend to re-vitalize that controversial Clinton/Congress thread. However, I'd like to alert you to an (IMO) excellent article by Ira Glasser, executive director of the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) on what I also think to be the real issue behind all this impeachment fuss. It also explains better than I could do it myself why I think these right-wing conservative politicians are a real threat to democracy, despite I'm a conservative Christian Democrat myself. Your comments are welcome, but it's probably better to write off-list. The URL is: http://www.aclu.org/morality/essay.html Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:12:18 EST From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni the lobster well thank you for extending the invitation to expand, er, expound. on the bandwith that is. i like lobster too, from maine, and what about those clambakes they have? I never have done it but once while there visiting my friend told me about them and I was amazed--they dig a hole and build a fire and then throw clams in there or something? and they cook for like 24 hours or something? something. I want one! ray of light, ray's dad's cadillac--all my girl's are always throwing my name into their songs! silliness on sunday expounding on the bandwidth--regards eric, thanks for the response--r ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:18:24 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: Webster's Definition of List In a message dated 1/31/99 1:55:26 PM Central Standard Time, DKasc13293@aol.com (Duane) writes: << What impact of having community here to discuss the material has had, if any on our appreciation of the work? >> Wow, I don't see how anyone can say that the list community *hasn't* had an impact on their appreciation of Joni's work...for me personally, it's forced me to dig deeper into songs and even whole albums that I had formerly dismissed. It's made me re-examine those songs I love and turn to over and over for comfort and guidance. It's opened my eyes to the amazing depth that is inherent in her songs, not just lyrically, but musically and instrumentally. But I suppose mostly it's convinced me that I'm *not* some kind of mutant in this world for having lifted up Joni's music as superior all these years... Bob NP: Cher singing the National Anthem... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:56:57 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC (NJC) Hi, everyone, I've been reading the list in digest form, off and on, for over a year. I only recently began posting. The sexual, political threads have neither stimulated nor bothered me. What does affect me is how careful people are about what they post. So many appear concerned about "bandwidth" and what is and is not appropriate. It seems like people just go ahead and write what they want to but then are oh so very careful to let everyone know they are aware that they're doing something which may be frowned upon and criticized. What is wrong with being human? Sometimes we just want to let someone know that they've made us smile or we like their idea, without having to write a whole thesis on the subject of the post we're responding to, though I suppose this should be done privately? This list is important to me. I have loved the work of Joni Mitchell since the release of Hejira (my favorite and from what I understand, the majority's favorite on the list) and I have lived in isolation with my appreciation of her work until I discovered this list. I want to be able to communicate within the established framework of this list, yet I also wish to be myself. Lately, because of all the "controversy" (for lack of a better word) and because some people's posts reflect a sort of caution, I am feeling somewhat self-conscious particularly being new. I've not had any bad experiences here. I was a bit put off when I first began posting because someone sent me a rather cold and snotty personal email correcting my spelling in one post but otherwise I've found people here to be rather nice and very respectful. I feel that I am much more the beneficiary of the insight and information I gain here than a benefactor. I have posted a number of times with NJC and felt a freedom to do so knowing that I had correctly labeled the content of my post but now I'm not at all sure. I personally enjoy NJC when it's related to music or literature or art and I AM tolerant of the sexual, political threads, though I choose not to participate in those discussions. I'm still not sure why this has gotten so heated. I don't think the list should turn into a free for all (but I don't really see that happening, either!) but at the same time I wish for others what I want for myself: the freedom to post without self-consciousness or fear of "reprimand" and if I am out of line or not following the prescription of this established list, to be notified privately and respectfully. Having lived in three different countries off and on as a child, I guess I'm still feeling like every new experience is a "new country" where I am learning the language and customs and what is and is not ok. I feel like that right now! I'm experiencing a bit of JMDL cuture shock! I'm sharing my feeling honestly and not really looking for any particular reaction...just my humble perspective. My apologies for rambling and I think this is all I'll say on the subject and perhaps more than anyone really wanted to know! Smiles to all, Gina NP: Lover Man - Billie Holiday ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 00:27:28 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC (NJC) Gina wrote: ....but at the same time I wish for others what I want for myself: the freedom to post without self-consciousness or fear of "reprimand" and if I am out of line or not following the prescription of this established list, to be notified privately and respectfully. .... Thankyou Gina for a wonderful post. There is no need at all to apologise for what was a balanced and well written post. I think you will find a few others who agree with you. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:47:25 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: NJC (NJC) - ---------- > From: Ginamu@aol.com > To: Joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: NJC (NJC) > Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 6:56 PM > > Hi, everyone, (SNIP) > I'm sharing my feeling honestly and not really looking for any particular > reaction...just my humble perspective. My apologies for rambling and I think > this is all I'll say on the subject and perhaps more than anyone really wanted > to know! > > Smiles to all, > Gina Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciated them NP:People's Parties JM (ironically) Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:16:23 EST From: DreamZvil@aol.com Subject: Re: luthier Hello- Actually, I've heard that term used quite a bit. I dunno what dictionary you were looking in, but the Merriam-Webster's on my computer has it! It says it was first used in 1879, and is from the Middle French "lut or lute", and refers to makers of all kinds of stringed instruments. Since I am responding to a digest, I bet you've heard all this by now? :) Cheers, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:12:08 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC: Bryan Thomas watch Bryan's first CD is now due in April. Find out more and get on his mailing list. music@bryanthomas.com - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:30:17 PST From: "Angela Takats" Subject: Am I a bad girl? (joni content) Please tell me i am not a bad bad girl...... So i am in a doctors surgery, looking through a really old "elle" magazine, and there she was, Joni, a full picture of her, with article and all! So i kind of, when the receptionist wasn't looking, tore it out... I'm not obsessed am i....now remeber, this was an old mag that i wouldn't have been able to go out and buy....also remember that down here in Australia i can't even get my hands on a poster of Joni adn the articles in magazines are few and far between. What do you think listers?? Totally justifiable? Anyway...my other "joni thrills" of late: I went and saw "you've got mail" - and i'm sure this will be old news to all you U.S listers, but i was just thrilled to bits to hear mention of joni and "River" from "Blue" - and "Both sides now" - even if the comment wasn't all that flattering about the song. And then i was watching "party of five" and they played "River" (in what i'm sure is a very old episode to those who watch it over in the US) and i was so stoked. (It doesn't take much to please me....good magazines in doctors surgeries, a song in a movie or soap series) Thoughts from Ange ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #51 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. 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