From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #45 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 27 1999 Volume 04 : Number 045 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: (NJC) sexual, political, religious threads [Susan Chaloner ] Re: Yellow Stars (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Yellow Stars (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) [catman ] Re: Joni on trial ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) and BLACKMAIL ["M & C Urban] Re: Atwood and Mitchell (rather long post!) [Ginamu@aol.com] Joni's Restaurant/Was Blackmail ["Don Rowe" ] Re[2]: Yellow Stars (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Margaret Atwood unauthorized biographies (NJC but relates a bit) [Ginamu@] Diamond Dogs [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Suzanne Vega (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Sexual, political, religious threads (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: Joni on trial [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: Suzanne Vega (Itty Bitty Joni Content) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Diamond Dogs [catman ] Re: Re[2]: Yellow Stars (NJC) [Dreamzvill@aol.com] Re: Sexual, political, religious threads (NJC) [catman ] Re[4]: Little Richard/Middle Children (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: New Joni thread [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Yellow Stars (NJC) [Dreamzvill@aol.com] Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Yellow Stars (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Re[2]: Suzanne Vega (NJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re[4]: Suzanne Vega (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Joni & Chieftans [Randy Remote ] Re: Joni & Chieftans [Randy Remote ] Re: Diamond Dogs [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: New Joni thread [Randy Remote ] Re: Joni's Restaurant [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Yellow Stars (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: New Joni thread ["Marsha" ] Re[2]: New Joni thread [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Reprise Remasters? [Malte.Peters@t-online.de (Malte Peters)] RE: Reprise Remasters? [Guy Brown ] Re: Re[4]: Suzanne Vega (NJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: New Joni thread ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: Diamond Dogs [catman ] Re: New Joni thread [catman ] Re: Sexual, political, religious threads (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re Australia Day (NJC) [michaelb@coolgold.com.au (Michael)] Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) ["Eric Taylor" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:05:53 -0800 From: Susan Chaloner Subject: Re: (NJC) sexual, political, religious threads > We've all been there, haven't we folks? Never seems to fail. Yeah...Now listen here! ;~) All you red-necked fundamentalist anti-everything fanatics of every which way persuasions...I have all the curves and not one of you has any brakes so you will do exactly as I say };~D Stop beating the sunflowers under our rainbows...we love them...If something's growing it makes very good sense to enjoy the benefits. Oui? Have a few tokes and relaaaaaaaaaaaaax ;~) Merci! Susan L.A. Honey McBabe-"...You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one..."- ;~) John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:01:38 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) Eric wrote: > Paul's sister's letter on the difference between how Judaism and >Christianity interpret Monicagate is the most brillient thing I have yet >read on this sordid subject! I truly was not going to comment on this but calling it "brilliant" has provoked me. I'm sorry Eric and Paul, but with all due respect, some of what I read in this made me sick to my stomach. Maybe I'm reading it too literally, and you can enlighten me here a little: >According to classical Jewish law, President Clinton did not >commit adultery; adultery is defined as a married man having intercourse with >a married woman, and Monica Lewinsky is single. Does this mean that classical Jewish law allows married men to have relations with single women with no consequence for the pain brought to the wives? >At worst, President Clinton is >guilty of the common sin of onanism, a sin that probably afflicts the >consciences of most Jewish men at one time or another. As if there was no other person involved here? Is Monica not considered a person? >While most of our moral debate focuses on the actions of >President Clinton, the worst sin from the perspective of >Jewish law is the public humiliation of President Clinton, >undertaken by Kenneth W. Starr with the cooperation of the >House Judiciary Committee. According to the Talmud, humiliating a human being >in public is tantamount to murder, and, like murder, is a sin that can never >be forgiven. Repentance is not possible for Mr. Starr, because it must be >preceded by reparation. Neither murder nor the destruction of a person's >reputation can ever be restored, so the sinner can never receive forgiveness. Would anyone under public criminal investigation be considered humiliated, and the person or persons investigating them be commiting acts tantamount to murder? >Seen in Talmudic perspective, the Starr Report, with its >salacious and often irrelevant sexual details from Monica >Lewinsky's testimony, constitutes assassination. Again, this is complete dismissal and disparagement of Lewinsky's word. Does she have lesser or no rights under this law? > For the members of the U.S. Congress to make public a Report that >humiliates the President, his wife, and his daughter makes >them partners in this assassination. Is humiliation only considered a sin if it is made public. What about the private humiliation that Clinton has brought to his wife and daughter? Is he not held accountable in any way for that under this law, or again are they, as women, considered not to count? >>From the perspective of Jewish history, we have to ask how >Jews can condemn President Clinton's behavior as immoral, when we exalt King >David? Clearly, David's affair with Batsheva was far more insidious - David >had Batsheva's husband, Uriah, murdered. While David was condemned and >punished, he was never thrown off the throne of Israel. On the contrary, he is >exalted in our Jewish memory as the unifier of Israel, the builder of >Jerusalem, the author of our psalms, the ancestor of the messiah. His wicked >deed of murder was placed in perspective and the entirety of his life was >judged, without condemning him on the basis of one sin, as outrageous as it >was. If President Clinton should be asked to resign his office, then King >David ought to be wiped from our memory. What an analogy - >Also troubling is the rush by some Jewish leaders, such as >Senator Joseph Lieberman and Rabbi Ismar Schorsch, to >condemn President Clinton, when they uttered not a peep >concerning Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu's admitted >confession to adultery. When was Netanyahu ever condemned as unfit to hold >office because of his affairs? This is yet another misleadling analogy, which infers that Clinton is being "condemned" for having an affair. Clinton cannot, under our law, be condemned as unfit to hold office because of his affairs. I don't know specifically what this Senator said, but I imagine it has more to do with how Clinton has handled the whole thing over time, rather than the personal details. There was probably not one peep over Netanyahu, because he, as quoted above "confessed" and did not stonewall. >Yet unlike Christianity, Judaism rests on a system >of law that demands and exalts hair-splitting, due process, >and minute precision in its judicial decision-making. And that is exactly was is now taking place in the Senate, so what's the problem? >This country's population contains a majority of Christians, >but the often very different values and principles of other >citizens - among them, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists - >must also be heard. Christianity is but one of many systems >of religious values, not the only one. The U.S. is run by the law, not religions. If it is thought that the law is too stepped in Christian values, then the citizenry can try to change the law. I see an ugly double standard running through much, if not all, of what the Rabbi has said here. It scares and sickens me. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:20:02 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Yellow Stars (NJC) In a message dated 1/27/99 5:12:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << Would anyone under public criminal investigation be considered humiliated, and the person or persons investigating them be committing acts tantamount to murder? >> In most cases, that is called slander and is a tort if not a crime. It is the responsibility of the investigating agency to maintain the privacy of the individual under investigation as much as possible, a responsibility of which Starr has sorely failed. It is murder of a reputation. That said, I'm not saying I endorse the statement that slander is worse than murder, but I do agree that neither can be undone, and I think that is the key point. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:25:14 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Yellow Stars (NJC) In a message dated 1/27/99 5:12:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << >Seen in Talmudic perspective, the Starr Report, with its >salacious and often irrelevant sexual details from Monica >Lewinsky's testimony, constitutes assassination. Again, this is complete dismissal and disparagement of Lewinsky's word. Does she have lesser or no rights under this law?>> I don't agree with your interpretation of this. > For the members of the U.S. Congress to make public a Report that >humiliates the President, his wife, and his daughter makes >them partners in this assassination. Is humiliation only considered a sin if it is made public. What about the private humiliation that Clinton has brought to his wife and daughter? Is he not held accountable in any way for that under this law, or again are they, as women, considered not to count? >> It is up to his wife and daughter to hold him accountable, if they choose to do so, and not you or me or the law. While you made some good points, Kakki, I think you also missed some points and exaggerated some others. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:48:10 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) Eric Taylor wrote: > In a life-and-death struggle to come to terms with my sexuality in the > face of fundamentalist Christianity, Eric-first don't worry about 'spilling your guts'. Some of us have done it more brutally!!!!I found you letter very moving. The quote from you is one I certainly identify with and I am sure many other homsexual mean and women do too. Unfortunately, the very peopl who cause such misery will never understand it-mainly because they do not wish to. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:48:17 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni on trial Honestly, nowadyas everyone blames everyone but themselves for their troubles. So Ms Mitchell had a hard time with her mother. Who didn't? Did we all become crazy? And as for being addicted-well that is no one's fault but her own. Ms Mitchell would have benefitted from a strong handed discipline, Bible school and time in a boot camp. Maybe that would have turned her into the sort of citizen this country needs. No is responsible for the fact that Ms Mitchell has turned into a paranoid, addicted, whining bitch but her self! I mean just listen to her music! Surely the satan has his hands right in there. I say repent, Ms Mitchell, repent before it is too late. Accept the teachings of Christ, pick up your guitar and sing happy songs spreading the Good News. Then all the demons of paranoia, addiction, selfishness and whining will be baniished. Repent! Repent!(Especially for that Satanic Tax Free song-shame on you!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:01:03 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Joni on trial - ---------- > From: catman > To: M & C Urbanski > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Joni on trial > Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 6:48 AM > >Surely the satan has his hands right in there. I say repent, Ms Mitchell, repent > before it is too late. Accept the teachings of Christ, pick up your guitar and > sing happy songs spreading the Good News. Then all the demons of paranoia, > addiction, selfishness and whining will be baniished. Repent! > Repent!(Especially for that Satanic Tax Free song-shame on you!!!) > "I am preaching love...I am!" Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:04:55 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) and BLACKMAIL > > Sooo... unless someone can give us those blackmail lyrics, > then BLACKMAIL IS VERBOTEN ON THIS LIST!!!!!! > > HAHAHA! > > Marsha "I pay a HIGH PRICE for my open talking... LIKE YOU DO for your SILENT mystery!" "I'm not above gossip...But I can SIT ON A SECRET where HONOR IS at stake!" It all depends on what the definition "is" is! no no wrong scandal, It all depends on what the definition of "SIT ON A SECRET" is! there that's better. Even though she has not come right out and said it; I think this implies blackmail! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:16:25 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Atwood and Mitchell (rather long post!) I am a Margaret Atwood fan, Vanessa, and I enjoyed your comparisons of the character Elaine in Cat's Eye, to Joni Mitchell. I believe that Margaret, like Joni, brings a lot of her own experiences to her writing and, of course they are both Canadian and about the same age. In a message dated 1/26/99 6:39.41 AM Eastern Standard Time, evanessa@mira.net writes: This book really drew me > in by the way the character described smells and textures... things I > don't necessarily take notice off. I am nasally challenged and have > trouble at times identifying mint let alone subtle smells that is so > carefully noted in the novel: > > "My brother Stephen sits in the front seat, beside the partly open > window. He smells of peppermint Lifesavers; underneath that is his > ordinary smell, of cedarwood lead pencils and wet sand." (p. 21) What I feel is similar between the two is their ability to describe characters or people and to sum them up succinctly.> Margaret Atwood is also a fine poet (you may know this) and I think she brings a lot of the techniques she employs as a poet into her fiction. If I remember correctly there are daily scenes in Cat's Eye involving a bridge (when Elaine and her sadistic schoolmates walk to school every day?) Joni makes frequent mention of bridges in several songs (someone posted about this some weeks ago). Maybe I'm getting my Atwood novels mixed up and it is in Lady Oracle that the bridge theme is contained. I no longer have my copy of Cat's Eye and it's been several years since I've read it. The essence of the book will always stay with me. It is quite powerful. You also mentioned in an earlier post that you think of the stories JM tells in the Gene Autry concert. In comparison to Atwood's mean-spirited schoolgirl characters I always think of Joni's story about playing dress-up with another girl and stating: "I'm wearing a gold lamme gown and descending a crystal staircase" - said in a breathy voice - and the girl replying in a cutting, flat tone: "No, I am". Talk about having no female peers to equal her creativity! Take care, Gina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:52:41 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Joni's Restaurant/Was Blackmail IVPAUL42 notices the offense of littering -- >LITTERING: >"Letters from across the seas >Roses dipped in sealing wax >Valentines and maple leaves >Tucked into a paperback >Guess I'll throw them all away >I found someone to love today" > So I can't resist: "So we packed mandolins, dulcimers, peddle steel and other implements of destruction into the back of a red VW microbus, and taking refuge in the roads, followed the white lines of the freeway in search of a dump that was open on Thanksgiving ... well we didn't find one. But as the car was climbing the hill we looked down and saw a small pile of garbage at the bottom. And we figured rather than bring their's up we'd throw ours down, so that's what we did. And we all went back to Joni's and played with the cats, ate another Thanksgiving dinner that couldn't be beat, went to bed and didn't wake up until the next morning, when we were awakened by a phone call from Officer Opie." Oh you can get Whatever you will At Joni's Barandgrill Exceptin' joni ... Don Rowe ;-) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:17:57 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Yellow Stars (NJC) _Paul replied" <> While that may be so Paul, and while I *did* find the piece interesting, it did reek terribly of using something obscure (Clinton *isn't* Jewish, after all) to rationalize what he did. That seems to be everyone's gripe, that we're being insulted by being denied the obvious truths on both sides. As someone who was nailing "Clinton/Gore" posters on telephone poles in welfare neighborhoods where drive-by shootings aren't uncommon, that is the toughest thing to have to swallow (pardon the pun) :~) But I thought the piece was provocative just the same..."I've looked at Bill from both sides now"...(Joni content for those who demand it) :~) Bob NP: Little Richard "Rip It Up" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:35:01 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) Eric commented: <> and then later added: <> So Eric, let me make sure I have this correct...you enjoy a thread immensely (as did I btw as I enjoy ALL of them), and feel free to add your generous helping, (and a fine post it was indeed :)), but you throw in what I would perceive as a pretty controversial statement with the caveat that no one respond to it? Don't worry, I don't intend to respond to what you've said, but rather the attitude. It reminds me of when I was a kid and we'd play in the neighborhood and say "Games Locked" to keep the kids out that they wanted out...I didn't care for it then and I don't care for it now. When I post, I realize that someone out there might respond to *whatever* I say, and I would expect you to extend the same courtesy. One last parting comment... << in the face of fundamentalist Christianity>> I would remind that these words are mutually exclusive...:~) Bob NP: Little Willie John "Fever" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:01:36 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Margaret Atwood unauthorized biographies (NJC but relates a bit) I just found this on the Margaret Atwood homepage: Yet another recent victim of the unauthorized biography. Unauthorized Biographies: Two unauthorized biographies of Margaret Atwood have been published this fall. In reply to implications in the media that either were authorized, fact-checked, or otherwise fully supported by the subject, Ms. Atwood says, "I have read neither book. I did begin to fact-check one, but gave up after a few chapters as there were so many errors. My initial leeriness persists -- I don't think biographies of living people should be written. I am not dead yet. Oddly enough, you can't stop anyone from writing a biography of you." For all you other Atwood fans and those of you interested in the depiction of females in literature, check out the article SPOTTY-HANDED VILLANESSES: Problems of Female Bad Behaviour in the creation of Literature, at the Margaret Atwood Homepage: web.net./owtoad/toc.html. Gina NP: Days Before Columbus from Nine Objects Of Desire - Suzanne Vega ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:09:52 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Diamond Dogs In the song "HOSL", Joni uses the phrase "Diamond dog". Bowie had a song and an album with the same title. What is the significance of the phrase? I understand in her song that she is referencing the diamond her husband gives to her and that she feels like a kept pet, but does that phrase "Diamond Dog" have its roots elsewhere? Bob, just another mutt in a pedigree world... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:21:14 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Suzanne Vega (NJC) Gina shares: <> Is this still her latest? And if so, isn't she overdue for a new one? Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:17:33 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Sexual, political, religious threads (NJC) I've been mostly lurking lately, cause there hasn't been too much on the list that's interested me, but I'm going to invoke my privilege as a scarred veteran of past jmdl-wars to make some observations. First Pat Henry wrote: >if I want to discuss those things I will go there... and if you want to >discuss >those things, those places are not hard to find... Then Marcel wrote: >Like two people having a spat at a party it intrudes on everyone >else who may not be inclined to even want to discuss the subject yet everyone >is forced to tolerate the spat. Then Colin wrote: > However, the times when the complaints about NJC have come pouring in has > always been when there has been a 'gay' thread going. Coincidence? Sigh. Been there. Done that. The big problem with sexual, political and religous threads, over the years that I've been part of this list, is that, inevitably, someone points a finger and takes a somewhat abstract discussion and turns it into you vs me, straight vs gay, Christian vs pagan, Democrat vs Republican...you're right, I'm wrong. It is so inevitible. It is so boring. It is such a waste of time. It is so depressing to see us go through this again. Thankfully, I have the jmdl-Van Gogh gathering to look forward to this weekend, with jmdl friends gay, straight, Christian, pagan, and, for all I know, Democrat and Republican. I treasure this list most for the friends I have made. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:28:37 GMT From: "Phil Klein" Subject: Atwood and Mitchell > Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:06:24 -0800 > From: "Kakki" > Subject: Re: Atwood and Mitchell > > I have made the same conjecture regarding Joni. She is so unique and > individual that it is most likely difficult to find true peers. I don't > think she dislikes women, but rather, was different from most women in her > youth. Being creative, she was a built-in non-conformist to begin with, and > also was compelled to seek out life experiences a little out of the ordinary > for most of the women of her generation. I think she wanted adventure and > action and would, during those times, have found that more hanging out with > men than women. I think the men surrounding her in the early days (Crosby, > Nash, Young, Tom Rush and even Mitchell) were, in various degrees, > supportive, protective and nurtured her along to some extent. They were her > natural peers, but that doesn't necessarily make her "one of the boys" and > prejudiced against women. > > I also agree with Vanessa that hanging out with women can sometimes be a > less than fun experience when manipulation, competitiveness and cattiness > enter the scene. It is spirit-killing and I would imagine that Joni would > have no tolerance or time to waste in that when she could be elsewhere out > having great adventures with the boys. I think it is great at her age to > prefer to be out playing pinball and pool with fun guy friends than doing > lunch and tea parties with the ladies in Tinseltown. Another thought to > consider is that she is an only child, and the conventional psychology > regarding only children usually describes them as very independent > self-starters who often do not understand competitiveness because they do > not experience sibling rivalry growing up. They tend to be loners and only > compete against themself. She may not "need" women friends in the > conventional sense. I would bet that she does, however, have close women > friends who are similar to her in nature, i.e., independent, creative, > adventurous. > > Kakki > I have not seen other posts in this thread, having accumulated so many unread digests, I just hit the panic button! However, whilst agreeing with most of your perceptive comments, it would seem that Joni does/did not totally eschew female company by any means (not that you suggest she does). "Song for Sharon" is an obvious example, and there are clear references to female friends on TTT ("Sophia says it's hard to catch.." "..and I thought of Anna..") Also, I am halfway through Brian Hinton's "Both Sides Now", and he mentions that when Joni went to Crete in 1970, she had a female travelling companion (although what the latter was doing while Joni was doing the Goat Dance with the redneck is a subject for the imagination). Phil ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:23 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on trial In a message dated 1/26/99 7:08:52 PM Pacific Standard Time, artwear@ncweb.com writes: << I say we set her free to keep on making music and art, after all it's great therapy! >> if it doesn't fit - YOU MUST ACQUIT!!! great post marilyn! and may i keep you on retainer? thanks! love, ric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:54:57 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Suzanne Vega (Itty Bitty Joni Content) In a message dated 1/27/99 11:26:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: > Gina shares: > > <> > > Is this still her latest? And if so, isn't she overdue for a new one? > > Bob > Bob, Suzanne has released a compilation: The Best Of Suzanne Vega: Tried and True. Nine Objects Of Desire was released in 1996 and previous to that 99.9 F in 1992. I'm not sure that the next album of new songs is exactly "overdue" considering her history. Though being a big fan of hers, I sure do hope it's in the works! She's been busy with other endeavors, namely a new book of stories, essays, songs lyrics and other creative writings entitled The Passionate Eye, to be released in early February. I know also that she has a young daughter, Ruby, with her husband and producer Mitchell Froom. I'm sure mothering has been keeping her busy also. The songs on Nine Objects Of Desire are impeccable, in my opinion. She is a masterful writer, with an eye very similar to great contemporary short story writers. I adore her work almost as much as I do Joni's. I once agreed with a post stating that Elvis Costello is second only to Joni in songwriting genius...well...having listened to a lot of Suzanne Vega lately, I have to update my opinion: Elvis and Suzanne are tied for second. Gina NP: Anne Sexton READS (her poems on cassette) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:49:12 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) In a message dated 1/27/99 5:12:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << I see an ugly double standard running through much, if not all, of what the Rabbi has said here. It scares and sickens me. >> Kakki, Truthfully, I did not read the beginning of this thread too carefully because the Jewish law that is being discussed, is not considered mainstream. It should be taken with a grain of salt. There are different factions within Judaism- from orthodoxy on down to less rigid, less formal forms- reform, humanistic, etc. It's important to realize that not all Jews follow the strict laws of the Orthodox. Case in point. Historically, there has been heated discussion as to "who is a Jew". If a child's mother isn't Jewish but the father is, will the child be Jewish? If a child is born to non-Jewish parents but raised within a Jewish family, is the child Jewish? My husband and I are both Jewish, but are not religious. When we adopted our children at birth- both were born to Christian parents- I asked a number of rabbis from different factions as to whether my children would be considered Jewish. To my dismay, the more religious (Orthodox and Conservative and even some Reform) said my children would not be considered Jewish unless I put them through a religious ritutual called a Mikvah. Personally, I felt it totally irrevelant and unnecessary to make my kids get dunked in water to "make them Jewish". I finally found a Humanistic temple who's rabbi told me that if our children are raised as Jews within a Jewish family, then they would be seen as Jews within that community. Guess which temple we joined? So, my point is...there are many opinions on how Jewish law is interpreted. And in my book, it can go way too far. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:22:27 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Diamond Dogs Cannot anser your question but I have Diamond Dogs, Station to Station and Ziggy Stardust and The Spiders From Mars-the only Bowie albums I like. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:27:48 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Yellow Stars (NJC) In a message dated 1/27/99 3:21:03 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << "I've looked at Bill from both sides now"...(Joni content for those who demand it) :~) >> Bob- Thanks for making me smile! Heavy stuff goin' 'round today..... But what I *really* wanna know is.... <> .....do you file that under "L" or "R"??? Love, Susan (a middle child - natural peacemaker and great at avoiding confrontations) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:31:56 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Sexual, political, religious threads (NJC) Steve wrote: It is so inevitible. It is so boring. It is such a waste of time. It is so depressing to see us go through this again. Quite right. Something that I and other non str8's on this list fully agree with. Yet it happens every time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:38:49 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Suzanne Vega (NJC) Gina said: <> OOh, Gina, them's fightin' words! :~) Suzanne is good, but until she can prove herself as *prolific* (with quality AND quantity) as Elvis, she's still (at best) in contention for the bronze... Sounds like you've fallen prey to "Bad Wisdom"...:^) Only my opinion, as always... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:43:14 -0500 From: "Eric G. Postel" Subject: Joni & Chieftans Howdy everyone. In case anybody interested: Febraury 23rd the Chieftains release "Tears of Stone" with a variety of guest singers duvh sd Bonnie Raitt, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Loreena McKennitt and Joni. Joni does "Magdalene Laundries" with them. Cheers, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:55:56 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: Little Richard/Middle Children (NJC) Amusin' Susan asks: <<> .....do you file that under "L" or "R"???>>> Susan, it depends on whether I'm "Lovin'" or "Rockin'"...:~D I file it with compilations and soundtracks... Actually, I bought the entire set of Time-Life "Rhythm & Blues" from the years 1954-1976, and while I usually avoid compilations of this sort, these sets are awesome! Every other R&B/Soul comp I had seen was all Motown, all Stax, etc. These have plenty of the classics, sure, but they also have one-hit wonders, obscure tunes, etc. They were about 20$/pop through the mail per disc, but hoowee they are all just swell, worth every penny! <<(a middle child - natural peacemaker and great at avoiding confrontations)>> Yep, me too, with an older sis and a younger sis... Just here for the laughs, Bob NP: Chuck Willis "C.C. Rider" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:10:25 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: New Joni thread Sue presents this puzzler: <> Sue, I just *luv* word puzzles!! The best way I could solve this was as follows: (Using my original e-mail name "RMuRocks") RMu - I can't find where these three letters appear in that sequential order anywhere, but they do appear in order in the word "Farmhouse" in Coyote. Rocks - Much easier, the first appearance is in "Sistowbell Lane", "We have a rocking chair, each of us ROCKS his share" Is that sorta what you had in mind? Bob NP: Clyde McPhatter "Lover's Question" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:27:55 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Yellow Stars (NJC) In a message dated 1/27/99 6:35:03 PM !!!First Boot!!!, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << not meekly accept bullshit >> Me, too, catman..... Luv ya, Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:45:44 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) Terry, Thanks for putting things in perspective. It seems that most of the large or better-known religions have branches within themselves which run the wide spectrum from orthodoxy/fundamentalism to liberal and humanistic interpretation. I had a facsinating discussion with an acquaintance from India recently where I learned for the first time of many different branches, interpretations and beliefs within Hinduism and Buddism. I think it's important for people to remember this before saying "all Christians (or any other religion) believe _____" >I finally found a Humanistic temple who's rabbi told me that if our >children are raised as Jews within a Jewish family, then they would be seen as >Jews within that community. Guess which temple we joined? I think that is wonderful! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:59:19 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Yellow Stars (NJC) Paul wrote: >It is up to his wife and daughter to hold him accountable, if they choose to >do so, and not you or me or the law. Should every news organization be likewise held accountable for aiding and abetting the public humilation? >While you made some good points, Kakki, I think you also missed some points >and exaggerated some others. If I did, it was in reaction to what I perceived as very one-sided advocacy on the part of the Rabbi which he tries to support by making references to the Talmud and analogies to King David and such. He does not consider any other person or chronology of facts and events except for Clinton and concludes that Clinton is the victim and Starr is the perpetrator. Yet he asks for "exactitude". Why do the facts of Clinton's OWN actions at the outset continue to be obscured in his defense? (It's a rhetorical question at this point). Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:58:24 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Suzanne Vega (NJC) In a message dated 1/27/99 1:40:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: > Gina said: > > > < Joni in songwriting genius...well...having listened to a lot of Suzanne Vega > lately, I have to update my opinion: Elvis and Suzanne are tied for second>> > > OOh, Gina, them's fightin' words! :~) > > Suzanne is good, but until she can prove herself as *prolific* (with > quality AND quantity) as Elvis, she's still (at best) in contention > for the bronze... > > Sounds like you've fallen prey to "Bad Wisdom"...:^ Not looking for a fight. I guess I took it for granted I was just expressing an opinion and not throwing out bait for the sake of an argument. Maybe I should restate my meaning: In terms of MY enjoyment of and appreciation for great lyrics, Suzanne is right up there with the best. Her body of work, although not massive, is of extremely high quality. IMO there is not a clunker in her discography. Though I did not miss your attempt at humor, I don't feel that I've fallen prey to anything other than my own personal instincts about what I consider excellent. Suzanne, in some of her songs, displays much better songwriting skills than Elvis - softer, with a more sensitive eye for beauty. Perhaps my love of poetry speaks louder here than my love of pop music. I think Suzanne's genius is closer to the former and Elvis' to the latter, which is a remarkable genius in and of itself (will this comment be construed as fodder for a debate too? btw, I'm smiling). I guess I was thinking of the poetry criterion being just as (if not more) valuable than Elvis' catchy hooks,TO ME! I do very much love his work. I am home from work with the flu today, so let's not fight, okay? I'll have enough fights to contend with when my dynamos arrive home from school! hee hee - gotta love 'em! Take care, Gina NP: Workers Playtime - Billy Bragg PS It's World Before Columbus, not Days Before Columbus (got mixed up with my listening and the CDs in front of me including Days Of Open Hand, also by SV.) Take care, Gina NP: Workers Playtime - Billy Bragg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:34:15 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: Suzanne Vega (NJC) You said: <> Naw, and not me either...I shouldn't have responded I guess...too bored for my own good. Who's to say who's better than who? I have everything she's ever done and think she's great and comparing her to Elvis is like comparing Oxygen to Nitrogen, I gotta have 'em both to survive!! :~D But hey, Suzanne herself would'a been proud of the way you took up for her...I didn't mean to "fight" :~( Now you pay me no more mind and take care of yourself and those kids! We've all been passing the...AH-CHOOOO! germs around here too... Bob NP: Jerry Butler "For Your Precious Love" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:57 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni & Chieftans "Eric G. Postel" wrote: > Howdy everyone. In case anybody interested: Febraury 23rd the Chieftains > release "Tears of Stone" with a variety of guest singers duvh sd Bonnie > Raitt, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Loreena McKennitt and Joni. Joni does > "Magdalene Laundries" with them. > > Cheers, > Eric Magdeline Laundries is also the first single off the album. RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:39:55 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni & Chieftans "Eric G. Postel" wrote: > Howdy everyone. In case anybody interested: Febraury 23rd the Chieftains > release "Tears of Stone" with a variety of guest singers duvh sd Bonnie > Raitt, Mary Chapin Carpenter, Loreena McKennitt and Joni. Joni does > "Magdalene Laundries" with them. > > Cheers, > Eric Magdeline Laundries is also the first single off the album RR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:42:16 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Diamond Dogs In a message dated 1/27/99 1:25:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << Cannot answer your question but I have Diamond Dogs, Station to Station and Ziggy Stardust and The Spiders From Mars-the only Bowie albums I like. >> What's wrong with Space Oddity? That's the one that turned me on to Bowie. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:44:47 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: New Joni thread Sue wrote: > Alright boys and girls, how many of you can find your e-mail tag in one of Joni's songs? If you can, please list the song and lyric (if possible). > Here goes... Furry Sings the Blues Pawn shops glitter like gold tooth caps In the grey decay They chew the last few dollars off old Beale Street's carcass Carrion and mercy Blue and silver sparkling drums Cheap GUITARs, eye shade ZAN guns Judges? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:45:12 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Restaurant In a message dated 1/27/99 9:55:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, dgrowe@hotmail.com writes: << And we all went back to Joni's and played with the cats, ate another Thanksgiving dinner that couldn't be beat, went to bed and didn't wake up until the next morning, when we were awakened by a phone call from Officer Opie." Oh you can get Whatever you will At Joni's Barandgrill Exceptin' Joni ... Don Rowe ;-) >> Don, You're going to have to go sit on the Group W bench down there at the end with the other hardened criminals. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:39:07 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Yellow Stars (NJC) In a message dated 1/27/99 1:02:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, TerryM2442@aol.com writes: << There are different factions within Judaism- from orthodoxy on down to less rigid, less formal forms- reform, humanistic, etc. It's important to realize that not all Jews follow the strict laws of the Orthodox. >> I certainly agree with Terry here. The post I forwarded was intended to present "a" Jewish perspective, not "THE" Jewish perspective, and not necessarily "MY" Jewish perspective. If I did not convey that, then I apologize for the lack of clarity. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:03:15 -0500 From: "Marsha" Subject: Re: New Joni thread >Sue wrote: > >> Alright boys and girls, how many of you can find your e-mail tag in one of Joni's songs? If you can, please list the song and lyric (if possible). >> and our remotecontrol wrote: >Cheap GUITARs, eye shade ZAN guns > >Judges? I'll bite: DOCtors pills give you brand new ills and I'm just livin' on NURSEvs and feelin's with a weak and a lazy mind docnurse@voy.net Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:05:27 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: New Joni thread Randy "Guitarzan" pleaded: <> (Sound of bell ringing) We have a winner! Good one - too bad you couldn't use Ray Stevens songs tho...Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:34:37 +0100 From: Malte.Peters@t-online.de (Malte Peters) Subject: Reprise Remasters? Hello everybody, I was just wondering if Jonis Reprise Records (especially Blue and Ladies of the canyon) have been remastered in a decent quality, as her Asylum Records recently have. Anybody knows? cheers Malte - -- A lot of people don't have much food on the table But they got a lot of forks and knives And they gotta cut something (B.Dylan) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:53:23 -0800 From: Guy Brown Subject: RE: Reprise Remasters? Malte Peters asked I was just wondering if Joni's Reprise Records (especially Blue and Ladies of the canyon) have been remastered in a decent quality, as her Asylum Records recently have. Anybody knows? I don't think so. Simon can undoubtedly confirm this, but, in the US anyway, the last round of 'rewhatever' simply revamped the art work to restore elements discarded in the first CD packaging of these albums. There was no upgrading of sound. In Europe check out 'Blue' on one of those specialist hi quality vinyl labels that are cropping up. Saw it for $25+ US here in Santa Barbara as an import but have not yet sprung due to the cost. A review I read said it was very good, but since it originates in the UK isn't it likely to have been made from, at best, the UK copy of the US prepared analogue master? I'm confused. GUY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:15:28 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[4]: Suzanne Vega (NJC) In a message dated 1/27/99 3:37:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: > Gina said: > < expressing > an opinion and not throwing out bait for the sake of an argument.>> > then Bob responded: > Naw, and not me either...I shouldn't have responded I guess Oh, but I so enjoy your responses! I have much respect for the points of view you express in your posts, as well as appreciating informative tid bits you send out. I suppose I am a tad sensitive today, as there is no one but me to cook the chicken soup which will hopefully take care of my cold as well as my bad mood! Take care, Gina NP: Elliot Smith on the radio Take care ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:49:08 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: New Joni thread > > >Sue wrote: > > > >> Alright boys and girls, how many of you can find your e-mail tag in one of Joni's > songs? If you can, please list the song and lyric (if possible). "Books WHERE ARTists in noble poverty" The Boho Dance artwear (since we are being abstract about it.) Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:56:26 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Diamond Dogs I don't like it. Does that mean there is something wrong with it? I like the single tho. IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/27/99 1:25:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, > catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: > > << Cannot answer your question but I have Diamond Dogs, Station to Station and > Ziggy Stardust and The Spiders From Mars-the only Bowie albums I like. > >> > What's wrong with Space Oddity? That's the one that turned me on to Bowie. > Paul I - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:57:31 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: New Joni thread He.lp me! Can't find a ref to Catman! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:53:49 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Sexual, political, religious threads (NJC) >Thankfully, I have the jmdl-Van Gogh gathering to look forward to >this weekend, with jmdl friends gay, straight, Christian, pagan, and, >for all I know, Democrat and Republican. I treasure this list most >for the friends I have made. AMEN, Steve! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:03:45 +1100 (EST) From: michaelb@coolgold.com.au (Michael) Subject: Re Australia Day (NJC) Thanks Don Lots of partying goes on around the country and people in just about every town and city dress up as Cpt Arthur Phillip and reenact the British invasion of 1788.It must be a painful day for any Aboriginal in this country. Michael >Just wanted to shock and amaze you that a Yank would even know about it! >Actually, it shows up on my annual Beatles calendar. So what >constitutes a typical Australia Day celebration? Whatever it is, have a >good one ... >Don Rowe
http://www.coolgold.com.au/~michaelb/index.html

michaelb@coolgold.com.au

Either we are alone in the universe

...........Or we're not............ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:35:48 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) It dawned on me while painting a closet today that someone would call me on the arrogance of that statement. Thank you for doing it so nicely, Bob! I guess I just dreaded seeing dozens of subject lines read, Re: Jesus as Roman deity! But it sure was a loaded sentence that I probable should have excluded. Feel free to make it a thread. E.T. - -----Original Message----- From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com To: JMDL ; Eric Taylor Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:39 AM Subject: Re: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) > >Eric commented: > ><> > >and then later added: > > <positively transformed. Oh god don't get me started! All I want to say is >that the cross was a sacred symbol long before Jesus was turned into a Roman >deity.... And PLEASE don't anyone turn this statement into a thread!>> > >So Eric, let me make sure I have this correct...you enjoy a thread immensely >(as did I btw as I enjoy ALL of them), and feel free to add your generous >helping, (and a fine post it was indeed :)), but you throw in what I would >perceive as a pretty controversial statement with the caveat that no one >respond to it? Don't worry, I don't intend to respond to what you've said, >but rather the attitude. It reminds me of when I was a kid and we'd play in >the neighborhood and say "Games Locked" to keep the kids out that they >wanted out...I didn't care for it then and I don't care for it now. > >When I post, I realize that someone out there might respond to *whatever* I >say, and I would expect you to extend the same courtesy.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:55:55 -0500 From: The Humphreys Subject: Re: Joni's Restaurant/Was Blackmail Gobsmacking, my friend...brilliantly composed :-) I must admit, I pull out my Alice's once a year on turkey and tofu day! Now tell me how Joni might act upon being called service her country? Did she get put in a big yellow taxi, with group JMDL, with only a pencil and some dirty looks, singer/songwriters, mother/singers and father writers? Did she run to the psychiatrist's office, jumping up an down screaming, "I can't go back there any more, and all my keys don't fit the door, or did the sun poor in like butterscotch and send her into a peace loving frenzy spilling her guts to the interviewers regarding the nature of the crime with the photos with circles and arrows and the blind judge only to be dismissed? Tell me now....I need to know!!! Suzanne ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #45 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?