From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #44
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 27 1999 Volume 04 : Number 044
The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes
by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery
username: jimdle password: siquomb
-------
The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Re: Atwood and Mitchell ["Kakki" ]
Re: the man hater's club ["P. Henry" ]
sexual, political, religious threads ["P. Henry" ]
Atwood and Mitchell (rather long post!) [Evan + Vanessa Thomson ]
Re: sexual, political, religious threads [catman ]
Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
"misandry" [Lisa Peakes ]
Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) and BLACKMAIL ["Marsha" ]
Re:NPR discussion of sex [Lisa Peakes ]
Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) and BLACKMAIL ["Don Rowe" <]
Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) and BLACKMAIL ["Marsha" ]
Re: sexual, political, religious threads [catman ]
Re: judy collins [Randy Remote ]
Re: judy collins ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ]
Re: (NJC) sexual, political, religious threads [LRFye@aol.com]
Re: (NJC) sexual, political, religious threads [Jerry Notaro ]
Joni Predicting the Future [DKasc13293@aol.com]
Re: no Blackmail found but other prosecutable offenses [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
(NJC) Re: Nicolette Larson died last year. ["Marsha" ]
Re: Re: Re: Pink triangles & Jewish stars (NJC) [Marilune@aol.com]
Re: (NJC) sexual, political, religious threads [Mark-n-Travis ]
Re: judy collins [Joseph Palis ]
Re: Wet Yourselves (NJC) [Mark-n-Travis ]
Re: Joni on trial [TerryM2442@aol.com]
Re: Joni on trial [RMuRocks@aol.com]
Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC) ["Eric Taylor"
Subject: Re: Atwood and Mitchell
Suzanne wrote:
>How frustrating it would be, I would think, to see things so poetically and
>clearly, and not have many on your level to relate these things to.
>Maybe, pure conjecture here, this lead to the demise of many of her
>relationships with men and her seeming lack of relationships with
>women. She is certainly someone we all revere; how would that actually
>feel to be that person? Another side of this being, how would it feel
>to have one of your few outlets, i.e. song/poetry, given to the world at
>the risk of intense and flagrant criticism which we all know she has
>received many times over? No wonder her Van Gogh references
I have made the same conjecture regarding Joni. She is so unique and
individual that it is most likely difficult to find true peers. I don't
think she dislikes women, but rather, was different from most women in her
youth. Being creative, she was a built-in non-conformist to begin with, and
also was compelled to seek out life experiences a little out of the ordinary
for most of the women of her generation. I think she wanted adventure and
action and would, during those times, have found that more hanging out with
men than women. I think the men surrounding her in the early days (Crosby,
Nash, Young, Tom Rush and even Mitchell) were, in various degrees,
supportive, protective and nurtured her along to some extent. They were her
natural peers, but that doesn't necessarily make her "one of the boys" and
prejudiced against women.
I also agree with Vanessa that hanging out with women can sometimes be a
less than fun experience when manipulation, competitiveness and cattiness
enter the scene. It is spirit-killing and I would imagine that Joni would
have no tolerance or time to waste in that when she could be elsewhere out
having great adventures with the boys. I think it is great at her age to
prefer to be out playing pinball and pool with fun guy friends than doing
lunch and tea parties with the ladies in Tinseltown. Another thought to
consider is that she is an only child, and the conventional psychology
regarding only children usually describes them as very independent
self-starters who often do not understand competitiveness because they do
not experience sibling rivalry growing up. They tend to be loners and only
compete against themself. She may not "need" women friends in the
conventional sense. I would bet that she does, however, have close women
friends who are similar to her in nature, i.e., independent, creative,
adventurous.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:22:51 -0000
From: "P. Henry"
Subject: Re: the man hater's club
- --
re: my own comments:
>
><< well stated! I think this is the only logical/sane comment I've seen in this entire thread... >>
ric,
*blush!* uhhhh... guess I got a little carried away... sorry... (must be the alzheimers) *I* stand corrected emphatically! your comments were great! that's why I responded to them! PLEASE accept my apology? (and thanks for not getting really pissed! *S*) pat
Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:38:04 -0000
From: "P. Henry"
Subject: sexual, political, religious threads
I posted about this once before and someone told me I was out of line...
I don't care!
there are zillions of places to go if I want to share opinions about sexuality, politics or religion... they are *everywhere*!
if I want to discuss those things I will go there... and if you want to discuss those things, those places are not hard to find...
there is only ONE place I know of where I can discuss Joni Mitchell and her life and art other that the chat if I want to get IRC, and I don't...
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
pat
http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html
Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:38:45 +1100
From: Evan + Vanessa Thomson
Subject: Atwood and Mitchell (rather long post!)
I should first say that the resemblance I perceived between Elaine (the
main character) and Joni is superficial at best:
As I am visually defunct (having no talent whatsoever) an artist's
vision or impression of Life is fascinating. This book really drew me
in by the way the character described smells and textures... things I
don't necessarily take notice off. I am nasally challenged and have
trouble at times identifying mint let alone subtle smells that is so
carefully noted in the novel:
"My brother Stephen sits in the front seat, beside the partly open
window. He smells of peppermint Lifesavers; underneath that is his
ordinary smell, of cedarwood lead pencils and wet sand." (p. 21)
What I feel is similar between the two is their ability to describe
characters or people and to sum them up succinctly... they way they
paint or describe situations and set up scenes. Their brutal honesty
and their scope and interest in other areas, like science.
I felt that what really struck me with the book was one line... the
character says she doesn't expect anything from men unlike all the other
girls and then she catches herself and amends that and admits:
" I think I can see them clearly because I expect nothing from them. In
truth I expect alot. I expect to be accepted." (p.280)
To me looking from a distance and not knowing what drives her, that
strikes a chord with me and how I regard Joni. She has often shown
contempt for statements such as "greatest female songwriter" not liking
the glass ceiling that she encounters although she doesn't call herself
a feminist.
The character of Elaine also has a similar position... she paints for
herself, she doesn't regard herself as radical or as a feminist although
she is labeled as one.
"Women collect grievances , hold grudges and change shape. They pass
hard, legitimate judgments, unlike the purblind guesses of men, fogged
with romanticism and ignorance and bias and wish. Women know too much,
they can neither be deceived nor trusted. I can understand why men are
afraid of them, as they are frequently accused of being" (p. 378-379)
"I avoid gatherings of these women, walking as I do in fear of being
sanctified, or else burned at the stake... they make me more nervous
than ever because they have a certain way they want me to be, and I am
not that way. They want to improve me. At times I feel defiant: what
right have they to tell me what to think? I am not Woman, and damned if
I'll be shoved into it" (p. 379)
I think I feel they strike me as having a similar attitude towards
people who try to pigeonhole them. They defy the restrictions set upon
them by others. That they overcame so much to be themselves and damned
if they'll apologise for it.
This is all just rambling on my part and not well thought out yet... I
take a while to reach decisions and too assimilate information. I like
to run through it and over it and take my time with it so this is all
abit rushed so I apologise if it sounds disjointed :-)
Hope I explained myself better Suzanne... I would comment on your Hinton
post but I've not read the book so have no idea! I guess I glean all my
information my this List.
Vanessa
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:01:36 GMT
From: paul.graham@sunderland.ac.uk (GRAHAM Paul)
Subject: paper thin walls
I've keep meaning to ask.... so I will now, what is the inference of the
"yeah right" that follows the song quotation?
I can't recall the first post that used it, to get the reference.
It seems to imply that the writer has yet to experience the noisy passionate
lovemaking the song is talking about, or is there some other inference?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:00:22 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: fags and hags - NJC
Hi Clark-enjoyed your post. Have read Fag Hag, Rodi's best book I think, and found
it very moving. I also found your last para moving.
I like the name Clark-named one of my Lhasa's Clark many years ago now.
bw
colin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:00:11 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads
The NJC thing was sorted out ages ago, Pat and it was voted to STAY. It is part of why this list is so good.
P. Henry wrote:
> I posted about this once before and someone told me I was out of line...
>
> I don't care!
>
> there are zillions of places to go if I want to share opinions about sexuality, politics or religion... they are *everywhere*!
>
> if I want to discuss those things I will go there... and if you want to discuss those things, those places are not hard to find...
>
> there is only ONE place I know of where I can discuss Joni Mitchell and her life and art other that the chat if I want to get IRC, and I don't...
>
> PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> pat
>
> http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html
>
> Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
- --
CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:18:20 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re: Gotta go
Say it ain't so, Joe!!
Glad to hear you're busy, anyway - I'll keep in touch and look forward to your
return more "sooner" than "later"...:^)
Bob
NP: Neil Young, "Helpless" (Live)
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Gotta go
Author: Bounced Message at fdinet
Date: 1/25/99 5:15 PM
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:06:46 -0500
From: "John M. Lind"
Hey evrybody,
Just a note before I go(to paraphrase Mr. Nash).
Things are getting too busy with work and life in general here in my neck
of the woods so I'm going to be un.sub.scribing. If anybody wants to keep in
touch just send me your e-mail address. I'll keep an eye on the web pages
and hopefully be back(sooner or later).
John~
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:43:45 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads
- ----------
> From: P. Henry
> To: joni@smoe.org
> Subject: sexual, political, religious threads
> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 5:38 AM
>
> I posted about this once before and someone told me I was out of line...
>
> I don't care!
>
> there are zillions of places to go if I want to share opinions about
sexuality, politics or religion... they are *everywhere*!
>
> if I want to discuss those things I will go there... and if you want to
discuss those things, those places are not hard to find...
>
> there is only ONE place I know of where I can discuss Joni Mitchell and
her life and art other that the chat if I want to get IRC, and I don't...
>
> PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are a group of people that come together with the common theme of Joni
Mitchell. We are all unique personalities. I find it very interesting in
getting to know all of you by comments & discussions whether they are
about Joni or not. How boring this group would be if one posted "Joni is
the world's best...." and 400 posted back "yeah what you said".
Truthfully, unless some theme or question comes up about Joni, there is
nothing to talk about. How many times can we hash over "Song to a Seagull"
being the title of the first LP or what does SIQUMB mean? When we ask for
interpretations to "Passion Play" gee sorry it's gonna get religious cuz
that's the theme of the song...BLAME JONI! As far as other stuff, I don't
think any of us live in a JONI vacuum. I liked reading the profiles, I
like reading Colin's or Kakki's or Ric's or anybody's opinions on stuff.
How boring Joni's music would be if she didn't pay attention to things that
went on in the world! The point is we are a group of people that come
together with a common admiration for Joni, and we each bring our lives and
backgrounds to the table and that is COOL!
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:57:17 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re: NJC - Christina Ricci
Joseph stated:
>> Christina Ricci by the way is also very good.<<
And it's also very enjoyable to watch her "dumb-down" her acting ability
to the low level of her co-stars in John Waters' "Pecker". You can tell
it's a struggle for her to be that bad...
Bob
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:11:00 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: sexual, political, religious threads
Marilyn coo'd:
<< The point is we are a group of people that come together with a common
admiration for Joni, and we each bring our lives and backgrounds to the
table and that is COOL!>>
Yeah, what you said!! :-)
But seriously, I thought it was ironic that *Pat* of all people posted
his displeasure with NJC threads. I mean, I tire of the NJC sometimes,
and sometimes I do as Les suggests, and that's try and start a Joni
thread. Last week I did that with a question about Yvette and all of a
sudden there was a nice little totally JC thread. I'm saying this not
to pat myself on the back, but again to state what I think is an
irony. Pat, you are in a unique position to start threads as an early
buddy of Joni's, memories/reminiscenses of those Michigan club
days...surely there's a wealth of treasure there you can share with
us. The next time you see a strand of posts that aren't saying what
you want to hear, open up the storybook and spin us a good
"folk"-tale. You certainly have as captive an audience as you'll ever
hope to have...
Bob
NP: Neil Young, "Prime Of Life" (And it was exciting to hear that CSNY
are going back in the studio...)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:49:22 EST
From: LRFye@aol.com
Subject: Re: (NJC) sexual, political, religious threads
Pat wrote:
> there are zillions of places to go if I want to share opinions about
> sexuality, politics or religion... they are *everywhere*!
But this group of people is not everywhere; it is here.
To be honest, much as I love Joni and the wonderful discussions about her
lyrics and life, sometimes I find myself bored and in serious need of a little
NJC -- a tag you forgot, Pat; just a little reminder. ; )
Lori
San Antonio
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:55:39 EST
From: MDESTE1@aol.com
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads
The problem with this answer Marilyn is that it would be nice to think
everyone is totally open minded but very few people are. Of course anyone can
get away with posting "politically correct" views but what if someone started
to post far right wing stuff or anti-liberal-cause stuff. Im sure NO ONE would
consider it cool. No ONE would want it cluttering up the cafe in spite of the
fact it may be supported by fact. ie everyone ususally says they are open
minded but very few are. For that reason I for one believe that all political
or religious views (UNLESS they are specificly related to a Joni song) should
be respectfully off limits. The reason for this is simple. political and
religious (as well as other) views are too personal and people have a tendency
to "fight" for such views. The debate quickly degenerates into name calling
and venom. Like two people having a spat at a party it intrudes on everyone
else who may not be inclined to even want to discuss the subject yet everyone
is forced to tolerate the spat. I would urge everyone to forego the temptation
to branch off into subjects and threads unrelated to the Art of Joni. Like the
person said there are infinite places to discuss heavy politics or religion.
there are even private chat rooms where you can let the argument RAGE.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:23:40 EST
From: Dreamzvill@aol.com
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads
In a message dated 1/26/99 11:23:56 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
badwolff@angelfire.com writes:
<< if I want to discuss those things I will go there... and if you want to
discuss those things, those places are not hard to find... >>
Thanks, Pat....well-put!
Cheers, Susan C. (with a numb finger from hitting "Delete" so often)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:25:21 PST
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (now JC)
Okay, let's re-spin this thread a bit, and take a look at some of Joni's
work, and how it incorporates either the "sexual", "political" or
"religious."
Listening to 'Hejira' has brought me about as close to a 'religious
experience' as I feel comfortable with. Then there's the epiphany of
seeing the woman live on stage -- which falls nothing short of a
cleansing in holy waters.
"Beat of Black Wings" welds all three of these subjects together at
once, in a protest of war ... an indictment of governments that take
young men and teach them to kill ... a comforting of the sexually and
parentally abandoned ... wrapped up in the haunting metaphor of the Bell
Huey as 'Charlie Angel.'
Even if one were to skip the 'overtly' religious songs (such as
Magdalene Laundries), overtly political songs (such as "Big Yellow Taxi"
or "Fiction") and the overtly sexual (such as "Strange Boy" or "Crazy
Cries ..."), the overtones would still resonate in the handfull of Joni
titles you'd have left over.
Don Henley, when asked by an interviewer why he hadn't put out a new
album in a while, answered to the effect "I've got to live my life so
I'll have something to write about ..." I submit that these discussions
of sex, politics and religion serve to educate us so that we may begin
to see new things in the amazing work of Joni Mitchell.
Respecfully yours,
Don Rowe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:32:40 EST
From: Dreamzvill@aol.com
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads
Howdy....
It's not really the "NJC" subject matter (hey, I do plenty of
that!)...it's just that I get overwhelmed by the sex/politics/religion thang
every time I turn on the news! I turn to the Joni list for (usually) an
"antidote" to all that. :)
Just here for the love, Susan C.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:39:54 -0500
From: Lisa Peakes
Subject: Re:NPR discussion of sex
Brian Gross wrote:
<>
Hi, Brian -
Will you please clarify what you mean by this reference?
Also, what does "NP" stand for? "Note, please"? The modern equivalent of
"nota bene"? Thanks!
* lpeakes@vpr.net *
* Lisa Peakes *
* Morning Host/Producer *
* Vermont Public Radio *
* 20 Troy Avenue *
* Colchester, VT 05446 *
* ph: 802-654-4351 *
* fax: 802-655-9117 *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:44:50 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC)
In a message dated 1/26/99 9:59:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, MDESTE1@aol.com
writes:
<< I would urge everyone to forego the temptation
to branch off into subjects and threads unrelated to the Art of Joni. >>
Name a subject, please, that is "unrelated to the Art of Joni."
As you have already read, many of us contend that there is none.
That is part of the attraction to Joni's music/lyrics to many of us, that
often in subtle ways she reaches every corner of society, whether it be the
Religious Right or the Radical Left.
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:48:31 -0500
From: Lisa Peakes
Subject: "misandry"
<<(Technically, the male
counterpart of misogyny, if I remember correctly, is "misandry," BTW.)>>
I looked in my dictionary for this word - couldn't find it - American
Heritage only lists one term, "misogyny" for the general hatred of women. I
like the sound of that word, "misandry", though - would use it if I felt
it'd be correct.
* lpeakes@vpr.net *
* Lisa Peakes *
* Morning Host/Producer *
* Vermont Public Radio *
* 20 Troy Avenue *
* Colchester, VT 05446 *
* ph: 802-654-4351 *
* fax: 802-655-9117 *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:17:31 -0500
From: "Marsha"
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) and BLACKMAIL
Paul sez:
>Name a subject, please, that is "unrelated to the Art of Joni."
>As you have already read, many of us contend that there is none.
Try as I might I can't find an explicit theme in Joni's lyrics
depicting extreme coercion AKA "blackmail". A few of us listas
were talking about this at a jmdl meet-n-greet last year,
and could not come up with Joni-ism's concerning this.
Can anyone point to this theme clearly depicting blackmail?
I think of Roses Blue, but that is not really it, or even
Off Night Backstreet (where the guy has here captive in his
triangle..."you still keep me from finishing any new love I start").
But that is not quite it either. Nor is "Who you gonna get to do
the dirty work, when all the slaves are free".
Sooo... unless someone can give us those blackmail lyrics,
then BLACKMAIL IS VERBOTEN ON THIS LIST!!!!!!
HAHAHA!
Marsha
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:18:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Gross
Subject: Re:NPR discussion of sex
- ---Lisa Peakes wrote:
> Brian Gross wrote:
> <>
>
> Hi, Brian -
> Will you please clarify what you mean by this reference?
> Also, what does "NP" stand for? "Note, please"? The modern equivalent of
> "nota bene"? Thanks!
Hi Lisa,
I'm an avid National Public Radio listener (WHYY-FM in Philadelphia PA) and on
that day, there was a discussion on sex on the local morning show. It was
pretty interesting fare.
np means Now Playing, which we jmdlers have adopted as a way to let the others
know what we listen to (besides Joni, obviously)
npimh means Now Playing In My Head for those unable to have something playing
out loud, like at work for some of our members
Thanks for askin'
Brian
np: NPR discussion on the banning of landmines
===
"No paper thin walls
No folks above
No one else can hear the crazy cries of love"
yeah, right
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:36:39 -0500
From: Lisa Peakes
Subject: Re:NPR discussion of sex
Hi, Brian -
<>
Oh, I get it - in other words, while you were posting, you were also
listening to the radio!
<< (WHYY-FM in Philadelphia PA)>>
Our program director, Mark Vogelzang, was the PD there for some time. We
carry Terry Gross's "Fresh Air" - she seems to talk about bodily functions a
lot (On her show, it's ap(as in "always playing"):sex!
Thanks for the response!
* lpeakes@vpr.net *
* Lisa Peakes *
* Morning Host/Producer *
* Vermont Public Radio *
* 20 Troy Avenue *
* Colchester, VT 05446 *
* ph: 802-654-4351 *
* fax: 802-655-9117 *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:52:36 PST
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) and BLACKMAIL
Marsha, throwing down the lyrical gauntlet, writes --
>Sooo... unless someone can give us those blackmail lyrics,
>then BLACKMAIL IS VERBOTEN ON THIS LIST!!!!!!
>
Well the best I can come up with is "The Windfall" ... which describes a
predatory materialism. So even if that's not 'explicitly' about
blackmail -- there's certainly 'blackmail' of a type going on in the
lyrics. Like I said, best I could do ...
Don Rowe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:58:32 -0500
From: "Marsha"
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC) and BLACKMAIL
>Marsha, throwing down the lyrical gauntlet, writes --
>
>>Sooo... unless someone can give us those blackmail lyrics,
>>then BLACKMAIL IS VERBOTEN ON THIS LIST!!!!!!
>>
>Well the best I can come up with is "The Windfall" ... which describes a
>predatory materialism. So even if that's not 'explicitly' about
>blackmail -- there's certainly 'blackmail' of a type going on in the
>lyrics. Like I said, best I could do ...
Nope...
empty, try another
Marsha
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:26:19 -0800
From: jan gyn
Subject: Re: Whet Yourselves (njc)
>-mariana
>
>Np: kim deal rules!
I saw the Breeders play unnannounced at this small place in like 93-94, and
when they played this sort of surf instrumental Kim Deal smoked a whole
cigarette without removing it from her mouth. During the whole song me and
others just watched her ash atrophy itself and it was way cinematic.
(Later when I tried this myself I collapsed in a paroxysm of coughing,
wuss that I am.)
- -jan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:38:20 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads
Well said Marion. In the 18months I have been on this list it has mostly been
very interesting. Sometimes there have been 'heated' discussions, when people
just cannot resisit attacking the person who wrote instead of what was written.
In any groupp of humans that will always happen. I do get pissed off with
people joining an established list and then bitching about it's content. I know
I can be cheeky but I think this is just rude and ill mannered.
There is plenty of joni stuff. When she did the tour last year that was all
there was written about-and rather boring for those of us not in the USA to see
her. However, none of us complained about it.
Politics, sex and religion are all part of the human condition and therefore
can rouse the emotions. that is life. it is good for one to be challenged by
others opinions. Maybe it will help one think! I'd rather read it than bury
myself in the sand.
However, the times when the complaints about NJC have come pouring in has
always been when there has been a 'gay' thread going. Coincidence?
Before anyone goes shouting 'paranoia' there are sevral on this list who have
noted the same. Just recently there has been a 'gay themed' thread and.....
bw
colin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:41:59 -0500
From: Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org
Subject: judy collins
I was at the "Women In Music 1960-1999" show at Madison Sq Garden last
night. It featured Odetta, Helen Reddy, newcomer Mandy Barnett, Paula Cole,
Janis Ian, Phoebe Snow and headliners Judy Collins and Jewel.
Collins did the most speaking of all the singers and spoke of Joni's hand in
her career. She also gave a nice push to Joni--something to the effect that
it's great that she's on the road again. I LOVE Judy's voice and she did a
nice "Someday Soon" and a newer song called "Colorado." "Both Sides Now"
was a little too Broadway-ish, though, and resembled neither Collins' hit
version nor Joni's.
Jewel did the most songs by far and was enjoyable and Paula Cole was her
usual frenetic maniacal self.
Surprises: Phoebe Snow BROUGHT THE HOUSE DOWN with a take on Janis Joplin's
hit "Piece of My Heart" (similar to Janis' but a little jazzy). Her "Poetry
Man" was nice too. She said it was about an affair she had as a 20 yr old
with a married man. Janis Ian brought chills with "At 17." It's amazing
these two women only had brief "star" periods.
Mandy Barnett is a new Sire artist that sounds like Patsy Cline. Poor Helen
Reddy was the only singer to suffer the indignity of playing to piped in
music. (Maybe she doesn't have a record company???) The veteran Odetta was
stark and unique.
Final thought: Ironic, that for all Jewel's pop hits, she's basically a
'90s version of the early wistful Joni, especially Ladies of the Canyon era.
Yet Joni can't buy a hit now. Of course, Jewel doesn't even have the voice
that Joni had and her writing, though admirable when compared with some of
her peers, is not nearly as accomplished as Joni's.
Look for my review tomorrow at www.sonicnet.com .
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:30:16 EST
From: Dreamzvill@aol.com
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (JC)
In a message dated 1/26/99 3:48:24 PM !!!First Boot!!!, IVPAUL42@aol.com
writes:
<< Name a subject, please, that is "unrelated to the Art of Joni."
As you have already read, many of us contend that there is none.
That is part of the attraction to Joni's music/lyrics to many of us, that
often in subtle ways she reaches every corner of society, whether it be the
Religious Right or the Radical Left. >>
Paul....that was soooo coooool. Thanks.
Love, Susan C.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:12:44 -0500 (EST)
From: David Wright
Subject: Re: "misandry" (NJC)
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Lisa Peakes wrote:
> I looked in my dictionary for this word - couldn't find it - American
> Heritage only lists one term, "misogyny" for the general hatred of women. I
> like the sound of that word, "misandry", though - would use it if I felt
> it'd be correct.
Well, if it wasn't in the dictionary, nobody could prove you
wrong, could they? :) But I find "misandry" in several dictionaries
(including Random House, Oxford, and Webster's) anyway.
- --David
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:25:45 -0800
From: Randy Remote
Subject: Re: judy collins
Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org wrote:
> I was at the "Women In Music 1960-1999" show at Madison Sq Garden last
> night.
> Collins did the most speaking
> I LOVE Judy's voice and she did a
> nice "Someday Soon" and a newer song called "Colorado."
Frank, sounds like an awesome show. Janis Ian is fantastic. I was wondering if
"Colorado" was the same one from the first S.Stills/Mannassas album. Thanks for
the report.
RR
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:43:52 -0500 (EST)
From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)"
Subject: Re: judy collins
No. It's a new song of hers. Quite moving.
Jerry
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Randy Remote wrote:
>
>
> Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org wrote:
>
> > I was at the "Women In Music 1960-1999" show at Madison Sq Garden last
> > night.
> > Collins did the most speaking
> > I LOVE Judy's voice and she did a
> > nice "Someday Soon" and a newer song called "Colorado."
>
> Frank, sounds like an awesome show. Janis Ian is fantastic. I was wondering if
> "Colorado" was the same one from the first S.Stills/Mannassas album. Thanks for
> the report.
> RR
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:51:33 EST
From: LRFye@aol.com
Subject: Re: (NJC) sexual, political, religious threads
Colin wrote:
> However, the times when the complaints about NJC have come pouring in has
> always been when there has been a 'gay' thread going. Coincidence?
Thank you, Colin, for stating that observation so nicely. I was going to
mention it this morning, but ran out of time ...
Lori
San Antonio
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:39:02 -0400
From: Jerry Notaro
Subject: Re: (NJC) sexual, political, religious threads
LRFye@aol.com wrote:
> Colin wrote:
>
> > However, the times when the complaints about NJC have come pouring in has
> > always been when there has been a 'gay' thread going. Coincidence?
>
> Thank you, Colin, for stating that observation so nicely. I was going to
> mention it this morning, but ran out of time ...
>
> Lori
> San Antonio
Yes. I was going to write the same thing but Colin stated it so well I didn't
need to. Well done, chap.
Jerry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:23:26 +0100
From: "Winfried Hühn"
Subject: no Blackmail found but plenty of other prosecutable offenses... (JC!)
Marsha wrote:
>>Sooo... unless someone can give us those blackmail lyrics,
>>then BLACKMAIL IS VERBOTEN ON THIS LIST!!!!!!
I hate to confess it, but it really seems as though our Marsha won't be
proven wrong on this one. However, during the course of my extensive
legal analysis, I was able to identify several other serious crimes for
which there seems to be evidence in Joni's lyrics. I know this is
shocking, but please see for yourselves:
- ----------------------------------------------------
DRINKING IN PUBLIC PLACES/CAUSING PUBLIC ANNOYANCE
- ----------------------------------------------------
"I didn't know I drank such a lot/Till I pissed a tequila-anaconda/The
full length of the parking lot!"
(Talk To Me)
- ---------
THEFT
- --------
"I stole that from Willy the Shake!"
(Talk To Me)
- ----------------------------------------------
SUBORNATION TO COMMIT TERRORISTIC ACTS
- --------------------------------------------
"Just like Jericho" I said/Let these walls come tumbling down"
(Jericho)
- --------------------------
CRUELTY TO ANIMALS
- --------------------------
"It's coming on Christmas/They're cutting down trees/They're putting up
reindeer"
(River)
- ----------------------------
ILLEGAL PANHANDLING
- ----------------------------
"I am a poor wayfaring stranger"
(The Silky Veils of Ardor)
- ----------------------------
OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE
- ----------------------------
"The judges are sleeping/Counting wooly little lawyers/And grinding
their teeth"
(The Windfall)
- ---------------------
DRUG DEALING
- --------------------
"Acid booze and ass/Needles, guns and grass"
(Blue)
- --------------------------------
FAILURE TO SUPPLY HELP IN ACCIDENTS
- --------------------------------
"We saw a farmhouse burning down/In the middle of nowhere/In the middle
of the night/And we rolled right past that tragedy"
(Coyote)
- ------------------------------
ILLEGAL POLYGAMY
- -----------------------------
"He's got a woman at home/He's got another woman down the hall/He seems
to want me anyway"
(Coyote)
-----------------------------
SEXUAL HARRASSMENT
- -----------------------------
"He pins me in a corner and he won't take "No!"
(Coyote)
- ---------------------------------
FLYING WITHOUT A PILOT'S LICENSE
- ---------------------------------
"Like Icarus ascending/On beautiful foolish arms"
(Amelia)
- -----------
FRAUD
- ----------
"There's a gypsy down on Bleecker Street/I went to see her as a kind of
joke/And she lit a candle for my love luck/And eighteen bucks went up in
smoke"
Let's face it, folks -- our Joni is a hardcore criminal!!!
Winfried
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:11:29 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re: no Blackmail found but plenty of other prosecutable offe
Winfried spilled the beans:
<>
This was great - add to them:
1. Gambling - "A little money riding on the Maple Leafs"
2. Public Nudity (the pic on FTR)
Bob
NP: ZZ Top "Brown Sugar" (Back before they turned sucky)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:18:55 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Re: no Blackmail found but plenty of other prosecutable offenses... (JC!)
> Let's face it, folks -- our Joni is a hardcore criminal!!!
>
> Winfried
That was great! I say we sentence her into DREAMLESS DRUDGERY!
- --------------------------------
Magdalene Laundries
- -------------------------------
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:09:30 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: no Blackmail found but plenty of other prosecutable offenses... (JC!)
Winfried-that was very clever! Well done.
bw
colin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:43:49 -0800 (PST)
From: "bern.gallagher"
Subject: Nicolette Larson died last year.
Penny asked: How did she die?
She had cancer. I understand there was a benefit for her
last year, which Neil Young attended along with others.
May she rest in peace.
She sang beautifully.
B.-
Chicken-scratching for my immortality.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:07:41 +0000
From: "Deb Messling"
Subject: Re: sexual, political, religious threads (NJC)
> It's not really the "NJC" subject matter (hey, I do plenty of
> that!)...it's just that I get overwhelmed by the
> sex/politics/religion thang every time I turn on the news! I turn to
> the Joni list for (usually) an "antidote" to all that. :)
> Just here for the love, Susan C.
And count me for the opposite view. I get really ticked off when NJC
is not labelled as such, but when I troll through my NJC postings,
it's the sex/politics/religion stuff that I find most interesting!
Just here for the angst, Deb M.
Deb Messling
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:35:52 -0500
From: Sue
Subject: New Joni thread
Alright boys and girls, how many of you can find your e-mail tag in one
of Joni's songs? If you can, please list the song and lyric (if
possible). I will start.
The Windfall
(Everything For Nothing)
Oh I'm tangled in your lies
your scam
your spider web
Next...
Sue Cameron (Suze)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:25:21 EST
From: DKasc13293@aol.com
Subject: Joni Predicting the Future
Ahead of one's time, visionary, etc.
TTT's sound is a real sonic challenge for the comfortable acoustic frame of
mind she put people in, me included, with NRH and TI. My approach to
digesting TTT, is to program my cd player to skip that tracks that make me
cringe (at the moment). A number of people have sited the remake of Man From
Mars as a butcher job to the beautiful acoustic piano version. This is an
example of either too much information from this list, or an appetite for the
familiar acoustic sound. I can't help but be influenced by what's discussed
here either.
Which brings me to this point. Craving change for change sake is something I
have always seen as a strength in Joni's work, no matter how difficult this
album is to digest. TTT is heralding personal change the more I play it.
Where my training has been in the classics of traditional interiors, knowing
periods of furniture, different woods, art, styles, colors, etc. My biggest
client today is a Modernist. Who puts function ahead of form, who really only
concerns herself with the period of creation she that she has personally been
able to witness (appoximately 60 years). Therefore, the sound of TTT is
becoming more and more relevant and applicable to my environment. Why this
is, I don't have any answer.
Joni ahead of her time to the end.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:42:07 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: no Blackmail found but other prosecutable offenses
In a message dated 1/26/99 4:19:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes:
<< 2. Public Nudity (the pic on FTR) >>
aren't you forgetting :
PUBLIC NUDITY Count Two
"You studied to portray me
In ice and greens
And old blue jeans
And naked in the roses"
LITTERING:
"Letters from across the seas
Roses dipped in sealing wax
Valentines and maple leaves
Tucked into a paperback
Guess I'll throw them all away
I found someone to love today"
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:47:21 -0500
From: "Marsha"
Subject: (NJC) Re: Nicolette Larson died last year.
Bern answered Penny's inquiry about Nicolette L:
>Penny asked: How did she die?
>
>She had cancer. I understand there was a benefit for her
>last year, which Neil Young attended along with others.
>May she rest in peace.
>She sang beautifully.
I believe she died suddenly from something acute like a stroke.
I don't recall anything about cancer causing her demise.
Marsha
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:58:46 EST
From: Marilune@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Pink triangles & Jewish stars (NJC)
In a message dated 1/25/99 7:50:30 PM, Harpua@revealed.net wrote:
<>
nope. as preppy, wannabe-artsy, privately-kind-of-cool-mostly-lame-and-my
brain-is-on-the-floor-because-i've-just-flunked-through-4 finals-and-one-more
- -to-go private school as they come.
- -mariana
np: sarah m, "under a blackened sky" bootleg Denver 3/8/95
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:44:55 -0800
From: Mark-n-Travis
Subject: Re: (NJC) sexual, political, religious threads
Jerry Notaro wrote:
>
> LRFye@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Colin wrote:
> >
> > > However, the times when the complaints about NJC have come pouring in has
> > > always been when there has been a 'gay' thread going. Coincidence?
> >
> > Thank you, Colin, for stating that observation so nicely. I was going to
> > mention it this morning, but ran out of time ...
> >
> > Lori
> > San Antonio
>
> Yes. I was going to write the same thing but Colin stated it so well I didn't
> need to. Well done, chap.
>
> Jerry
We've all been there, haven't we folks? Never seems to fail.
Thanks Jerry, Colin & Lori
Mark in Seattle
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:01:10 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Joni on trial
Mr. Winfried Huhn has decided to bring charges against Ms. Mitchell. I
think she needs someone to defend her case! I am putting forth a plea of
insanity.
Ms. Mitchell is depressed, delusional, paranoid, and has multiple
personalities which will all be proven. In other words, she is a Troubled
Child your Honor!
First of all Joni Mitchell has admitted that she was Raised on Robbery.
This is not her fault, it's her mother's. Joni has expressed that her
mother put "shame on me" and "Mama thinks she spoiled me".
Secondly, Ms. Mitchell is depressed! "I'm so hard to handle, I'm selfish
and I'm sad"..."I've got the blues inside and outside my head" and "There's
comfort in melancholy when there is no need to explain.
Third: Ms. Mitchell claims paranoia. "Maybe it's paranoia, maybe it's
sensitivity, your friends protect you, scrutinize me". (classic case!)
Fourth: Joni Mitchell is delusional. "I dreamed I saw the bombers riding
shotgun in the sky and they were turning into butterflies above our
nation". "Oh honey you turn me on I'm a radio".
Fifth: Addictive personality. "I could drink a case of you and still I
would be on my feet"
Sixth: Multiple personalities. "Trina, Annie & Estrella" "When I get
that crazy feeling I know I'm in trouble again." "The eagle and the
serpent are at war in me".
So you see Ms. Joni Mitchell cannot be held responsible because by her own
admission: "I told you when I met you I was crazy". "But then absurdity
came over me and I long to lose control".
I say we set her free to keep on making music and art, after all it's great
therapy!
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:10:01 +0800 (PST)
From: Joseph Palis
Subject: Re: judy collins
Frank wrote:
>
> Surprises: Phoebe Snow BROUGHT THE HOUSE DOWN with a take on Janis Joplin's
> hit "Piece of My Heart" (similar to Janis' but a little jazzy). Her "Poetry
> Man" was nice too. She said it was about an affair she had as a 20 yr old
I first got a handle of Phoebe Snow in a contemporary jazz record where
she sang "Thoughtful and Thankful" with that oh-so-bluesy voice that sort
of blew me away. I remember voices like that everywhere like Toni Childs'
and it seems to grow on you. Snow's SOMETHING REAL disc is very beautiful
with the lyricism of "Touch Your Soul" and the title track. I heard she is
part of a vocal group that gets featured in soul and rock revues.
I like Judy Collins especially in her much-maligned tribute disc to the
music of Bob Dylan. A lot of people I know hated it and I can't understand
why at that time. I realized later that these friends of mine are Dylan
fans who belong to that particular subgroup that refuses to listen to
any singers' version of anything Dylan. I like that voice. Makes me
remember a particular scene where it is sunset and one sits on a rocking
chair and watch the afterglow.
Jewel is considered by many as honest. I have yet to see this, although I
like the acoustic setting of her debut album. Besides, she cited Ella
Fitzgerald and Jennifer Warnes as influences. How can she go wrong? :)
I like Paula Cole's voice. There are only a few singers whose voice I
consider perfect. I can't quite describe it myself because describing
perfect voices negate its perfection. Paula Cole is one. Annie Lennox is
another. Perfect perfect voice.
Thanks Frank for the news. I will certainly read your reviews about these
acts. Your type of writing is one that inveigles another to impulsively
buy the albums of these artists because of its freshness and
direct-to-the-point nature. More power!
Joseph
np: Diamanda Galas' Malediction and Prayer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:12:13 -0800
From: Mark-n-Travis
Subject: Re: Wet Yourselves (NJC)
Marilune@aol.com wrote:
my all time favorite movie of the year is
> "Shakespeare in Love" followed by "The Opposite of Sex". Christina Ricci is
> THE coolest.
These are both great movies! Christina Ricci is a fine young actress
and is going to be a formidable one as she matures. She has a unique
look about her & an intensity that bring Bette Davis to mind. Lisa
Kudrow is also a hoot in 'Opposite of Sex' playing a part that's a total
switch from Phoebe on 'Friends'.
And 'Shakespeare in Love'? What can you say? Beautifully written and
produced with a great cast. With Joseph Fiennes & Gwynneth Paltrow
there's something for *everybody* in this movie. And lo and behold,
they aren't just nice to look at, they can *act* too. As a
once-upon-a-time theatre major it was a lot of fun to spot some of the
literary references that a lot of people wouldn't know about. For
instance, there's a raggedy kid who plays with rats and seems to live on
the streets. Says he liked all the gory parts of 'Titus Andronicus' &
I'm pretty sure he said his name was John Webster. John Webster was a
playwright who wrote a few years later than Shakespeare. The play he is
most known for is the 'The Duchess of Malfi', an infamously gruesome
revenge tragedy.
Great picks (or pics?), Mariana.
Mark in Seattle
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:24:32 EST
From: TerryM2442@aol.com
Subject: Re: Joni on trial
In a message dated 1/26/99 10:06:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
artwear@ncweb.com writes:
<< I am putting forth a plea of
insanity.
>>
Und I voult be happy to see Meesus Meetchul at mine office on Monday, Vendsday
unt Friday. I haf 2:00 open.
Dr. SigMondegreen
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:48:08 EST
From: RMuRocks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Joni on trial
In a message dated 1/26/99 9:06:11 PM Central Standard Time, artwear@ncweb.com
writes:
<< I am putting forth a plea of
insanity. >>
And a brilliant plea it was indeed, Marilyn! The court shall rise!!
Bob
NP: Lou Levy "The Shadow Of Your Smile"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:27:21 -0500
From: "Eric Taylor"
Subject: Pink Triangles & Yellow Stars (NJC)
I've enjoyed this thread immensely and wanted to respond sooner but my
Internet Explorer 5.0 beta imploded a few days ago (apparently it has a
glitch receiving email with digital IDs). Had to do the dreaded FDISK
because I had installed FAT32. Beware of betas!
Dr. Martin van Thomas-Paupertin asked:
<>
Are you referring to the Starr Report or the JMDL? It seems our world is
obsessed with stupid celebrity sex scandals and I am so proud that
siquombites have kept this discussion intelligent and meaningful.
Paul's sister's letter on the difference between how Judaism and
Christianity interpret Monicagate is the most brillient thing I have yet
read on this sordid subject! I have enormous respect for the Jewish
perspective and if I were looking for a religion, I'd become a reformed Jew
(now that they approve same gender marriage)....
The Nazis made all Jews wear a yellow Star of David like they made all
(suspected) homosexuals males wear a pink triangle. Why did Hitler pick
these colors? Is it not obvious that he was identifying Jews as cowards and
gay men as girls? Suspected Lesbians didn't wear pink triangles because they
could bare offspring to the master racists.
When the Holocaust was over Israel did not put a yellow Star of David on
it's new-found flag. Rather it is rightly royal blue!
The problem I have with the pink triangle is the color pink. If gays
really want to transform Adolf's stereotype may I suggest including all
colors of the rainbow on the triangle. That would certainly be the
anti-hitler. After all, the rainbow is God's promise in Genesis to end
genocide.
Someone mentioned the Cross as an example of how a negative symbol was
positively transformed. Oh god don't get me started! All I want to say is
that the cross was a sacred symbol long before Jesus was turned into a Roman
deity.... And PLEASE don't anyone turn this statement into a thread!
In a life-and-death struggle to come to terms with my sexuality in the
face of fundamentalist Christianity, I searched for a word, often listening
to Shadows & Light. Gay just seemed too flamboyant and happy-go-lucky. After
all, I was so sad. Bi connoted the ambivalence I try to avoid as a true
Libra. I contemplated omnisexual until I realized it means: fuck everyone!
Cosmisexual was appealing but too metaphysical. Queer and fag were
definately out of the question for blatant reasons too painful to mention. I
still like bent as a play on straight (bend is the root of the word magic,
among many other positive things). Homo doesn't bother me because we are all
homo sapiens.
Then it occurred to me that heterosexuals are not defined as who they
are by their sexuality. I mean, Bono and Bjork are not referred to as
straight pop stars. But what about K.D. Lang and George Michael?
Let's face it. We are all simply sexual! What turns us on is a private,
personal matter, as long as it involves concenting adults. Statistically
many more "heterosexuals" engage in anal sex than "homosexuals" so does that
make them queer? Personally I don't like anal sex so does that make me
straight? Can you see the stupidity of this whole situation?
I'm sorry if I've been too explicit. I'll probably be even sorrier when
I wake up tomorrow realizing that I just spilled my guts out to the wwworld!
Yet, when I think of Joni, I realize that I am in very good company....
E.T.
NP: TTT
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V4 #44
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