From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #42 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, January 25 1999 Volume 04 : Number 042 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- joni chat room [evian ] Re: Grace Slick and Joni ["Kakki" ] Women back-ups [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons)] Dave Van Ronk's Joni covers ["Deb Messling" ] Sue on Mingus [simon@icu.com] [none] [Mark Klempner ] Re: the man hater's club [Dreamzvill@aol.com] Iris Dement (NJC) ["Marsha" ] Re: the man hater's club ["Marsha" ] Re: the man hater's club ["P. Henry" ] Fag Hag [Alan ] Re: the man hater's club ["P. Henry" ] words and triangles (njc) [patrick leader ] Re: the man hater's club [RMuRocks@aol.com] Wet Yourselves [catman ] Re: Pink triangles & Jewish stars (NJC) [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Pink triangles & Jewish stars (NJC) [catman Subject: joni chat room There IS a Joni chat room, on mIRC. It is on effnet, and there was a post last week announcing its arrival. C'mon people, download mIRC! It's free, and although it looks confusing as hell, after u spend a week of pulling your hair out trying to figure it out, it is easy as pie! Evian np: Diana Ross "Swept Away"... this song makes me wanna shake my fat ass til the cows come home! LOL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:38:17 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Grace Slick and Joni Kenny wrote: >I noticed some minor interaction bewteen Grace and Joni on the Dick Cavett Show >of 8/18/69, which I watched again just last week. He introduced Joni as a "true >musical artist," and Grace, "We Can Be Together" -- had a belittled look >on her face, as if this was simultaneously an insult to her and her artistry >(at least this was *my* interpretation, I saw a slight cringe on her face at >that moment.) I interpreted it just the opposite. Somehow, I detected a slightly patronizing tone in Cavett's voice and I thought that was what prompted Grace's grimace. Cavett always sounded rather patronizing in general to me, but I've gotten used to his air over the years. > But it didn't stop her from joining the crowd in giving Joni a >standing ovation after one of her songs (For Free I believe.) I recall that she was the first one to jump to her feet and applaud Joni heartily. >Also, I could swear that a few months ago someone posted an excerpt of Grace's >new autobiography with a Joni reference, and as I recall, it went something >like this: "I saw Joni in a restaurant in LA a few years ago, and I was gonna >walk up to her and say hi, but I felt intimidated. You know, anyone who's >musician enough to work with Charles Mingus..." I don't know about this passage or what was up with her if she said it. I can't recall the titles of the articles, but I have read Joni speak favorably and affectionately of Grace and I've read Grace lauding Joni to the skies. Maybe some searches on the JMDL site will bring up these references. The members of Jefferson Airplane, Phil Lesh, Graham Nash, Neil Young, Jerry Garcia and Joni all had one big jam session on a number of cuts on Crosby's 1971 solo album "If I Could Only Remember My Name" and I've also read accounts of these sessions somewhere which indicated their friendship. I wasn't going to mention this before but it is relevant - Joni and Grace also currently share Robbie Cavolina as a very close friend. >But I was very saddened to read that passage from her bio. While I agree that >she's not as muti-talented as Joni, she's certainly an icon and has solid >achievements of her own that I -- and indeed many -- respect. I thought it was >weird that she felt too "intimidated" by Joni to approach her. I guess her >"sordid past" has a serious affect on her self-confidence. I don't know - Grace has always struck me in interviews as someone who is pretty philosophical about her past. Maybe the sense of intimidation stems from the same awe that some of us have of Joni. Many artists who would be considered in Joni's league (well, at least close to it) have also exhibited the same shyness in her presence against all standard logic. There are some people in my life who have been friends for years who I still feel shy with at times, because I am in awe of their talent. Not to digress, but I recall an article about the time Joni and Larry spent living in England while recording "Chalk Mark" and they invited Plant and Page of Led Zeppelin to come over for a visit. Larry tells the story that they were totally intimidated meeting her and acted like gawky, speechless schoolboys with a huge crush in her presence. This from the guys who had a huge hit years earlier with "Going to California" which was about Joni. But back to Grace - there was a time when they hung out together and they do think well of each other (although I'll leave it open to someone to find some statement to refute this). Their boyfriends and buddies were close friends with each other and collaborated on some songs together. But regardless of that, maybe Grace was intimidated for other number of reasons. She has had some embarrassing publicity in recent years (drunkeness, shooting a gun at people) and that, too, may have had something to do with her reluctance to face an old friend. If I find the references again, I'll post you privately, Kenny. Don't want to push my luck ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:30:34 -0800 (PST) From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons) Subject: Women back-ups Joni also had Brenda Russell sing on Ray's Dad's Cadillac. Another subject, looking through Billboards Page last night I saw that Nicolette Larson died last year. What happened to her? And Gina, I've enjoyed your downunder, down-home posts so much. I had to grin when you made mention of your child "noodling" around the piano the other day. In my husband's family "noodle" is the slang term for the 5 year olds' and under "family jewels". Just thought I'd share that. God bless all Penny ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:20:32 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Dave Van Ronk's Joni covers My Sunday paper this morning referred to legendary folk singer Dave Van Ronk as Joni Mitchell's "finest and most dedicated interpreter." His 1976 album Sunday Street, just reissued, contains his cover of "That Song About the Midway." Has anyone heard it? I own his Songs for Ageing Children album, which includes his cover of "River," as well as his original "Song for Joni." Deb Messling ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:45:56 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Sue on Mingus Marilyn wrote ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >> Some more credits trivia: >> Susan Webb (sister of singer-songwriter Jimmy Webb) is credited with >> background vocals on "Down to You". Susan idolized and emulated Joni >> back in the early 70s on her own couple of albums and covered some of >> Joni's songs on them, including "Case of You." >> >> Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman are the background singers credited on >> "The Tea Leaf Prophecy." >> >> Kakki > >I knew that there was 'Sue' on Mingus, and someone else on DJRD in "The >Tenth World" but, they were never big names. I just thought they were >friends. I always ASSumed that Joni did her own background vocals >(other than the guys) since she had such a unique voice. > >Marilyn >__________________________________________________________________________ FWIW: the Sue on the Mingus album is Susan Graham, wife & widow of Charles Mingus. BTW: Joni appears on two of Jimmy Webb's albums, LETTERS in 1972 and LANDS END in 1974. - ------- simon - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:13:02 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Klempner Subject: [none] Marilyn wrote: If you really look at it, Joni is a woman hater! She often likes to dress as black man (she considers herself as a black man stuck in a white woman's body). Look at DJRD, the Beat of Black Wings video and in the S&L video. She puts down the majority of woman artists. The only one she really gives praises to are Shawn Colvin & Janet Jackson. And Janet is black. She considers herself as "one of the guys" and every bit as good as any male artist and hates the "female" separation. She hangs out with men gay or not. She's never had any women artists sing or play with her in concerts or on recordings. And she loathes the Lilith fair. I think she's a woman hater! Mark K. writes: Whoa! Marilyn, thanks for your incendiary (to use a word J turned me on to) opinion. But what about the songs Joni has written to women, and all the times she mentions women affectionately in her songs? I'm thinking of Ladies of the Canyon, Amelia, and--I'm sure there's more. On TTT she has that line, "I think of Anna . . . ." sung with such affection. No, I think--maybe--Joni's public self hates women, cause she's so sick of being compared to other women in the biz who are not in her league, and being devalued as a result because they are "new and improved"--words Joni used in a conversation I had with her about ten years ago re: Tracy Chapman winning a slew of Grammys. I suspect that privately she is no woman hater! Interesting that the two women artists you mention she has spoken well of are both women who have honored Joni: Janet by her words in public, and by her use of Joni's material; Shawn by her words in public, including--on the liner notes to--I think it was--"Fat City" that thank you to Joni that says something like "You genius--me wimp." Maybe she's like Segovia: he couldn't tolerate any classical guitarist who didn't pay homage to him. Segovia gave/did so much for the classical guitar, that I feel this was a reasonable expectation. I feel similarly re: Joni and the domain of singer/songwriters (NOT women singer/songwriters!) BTW, did you ever hear that little anecdote about Dylan. He was asked in an interview what women singer/songwriters he liked. He said something like, "None of 'em." The interviewer came back with "What about Joni Mitchell?" He said sl "Oh Joni. Well, in my mind she more like a man." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:19:08 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: the man hater's club In a message dated 1/23/99 9:05:56 PM !!!First Boot!!!, RMuRocks@aol.com writes: << No way is she a manhater, her love songs are just too many and too lovely. >> But really, Bob....it's because of the way she touched your hand, right? :) Love, Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:02:14 -0500 From: "Marsha" Subject: Iris Dement (NJC) Hi, everyone. I was late for Iris' performance last night with the assumption her show would start like at the rest at our new acoustic club in Knoxville, so I missed half of it---shucks. That voice! So powerful for her itty bitty frame. And when she speaks an octave lower and slower, I picture a wind-up key on her back, activated as she sings in that warbling and tight vibrato...a funny contrast. Her song that made me cry was Easier's Gettin' Harder Every Day...and of course her finale My Life. The protest song Wasteland of the Free was a bit trite for rhyming's sake, and I guess I have never much gotten into "this world is shit" songs that don't have subtlety or softer metaphors like Joni's Exxon Blue and Radiation Rose references. Iris will be at a little hole in the wall in Chattanooga Monday night, and I am tempted to go. The webowner kindly put up my photo with Iris on his site last year, and of course she graciously hung out to greet all after the show. Ran into my Beatle-loving college roommate too, so it was a fun evening. (Hey, Terry...she tells me she has an entire bathroom decorated with Beatles!!!!!) Busy with school and interviews for potential beaus, Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:06:48 -0500 From: "Marsha" Subject: Re: the man hater's club >In a message dated 1/23/99 9:05:56 PM !!!First Boot!!!, RMuRocks@aol.com >writes: > ><< No way is she a manhater, her love songs are just too many > and too lovely. >> > >But really, Bob....it's because of the way she touched your hand, right? :) > > Love, Susan C. Joni may have sweetly touched ol' Bob's hand, but I personally witnessed her whispering "Man is the Sire of Sorrow" in his ear at the same time.... ;-) Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:32:39 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: the man hater's club ric wrote: < really, the list is endless...and yet we are hard pressed to come up with 3 examples of women. what IS up with that? > ummm... I dunno... do ya think maybe it could have something to do with the sound? when I was a singer I always tended to sing with people I sounded good with... (and boy-girl harmony is so natural...) funny thing is, I never sang with *anyone* that we sounded so good together as when I sang with Joni... I used to get goosebumps! in some ways, she taught me to sing... think she liked it too... *G* btw, Carol King is another we can add to the short list... pat ps - my mind just flashed to the very familiar pic on wally's site at newport, around the mike: cass elliot, joan baez, mimi farina, judy collins and Joni... *S* Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:06:58 -0600 From: Alan Subject: Fag Hag Gee, the disadvantages of being on the digest list... (but then, when you only have a chance to check your mail once a day, most days, there isn't much point in switching to the individual list either). I had many comments about the Fag Hag thread, but then I saw that Eric and Lori said just about everything I wanted to say (and they probably said it better than I could have); both about how meaningless labels are, and about how groups tend to take ownership of the labels and throw them back at their attackers. I'm straight (so sue me), but it just sickens me to hear people attach negative importance to labels, especially regarding something as trivial, personal, and meaningless (in terms of what kind of person you are) as sexual preference. I really admired Sarah McLachlan when she refused to let people label her; I think she called herself "omni sexual," and I remember thinking, what a cool, and polite, way to reject being labeled. Likewise, I remember reading that Joni refused to be called a "feminist," even though her life has been an example of free will and independence, because she didn't like the male bashing that was associated to the "feminist" label. Thinking about this thread, Borderline started going through my head. I had to go put on TI. Every bristling shaft of pride Church or nation Team or tribe Every notion we subscribe to Is just a borderline. Good or bad, we think we know; As if thinking makes it so! (Shakespeare: Hamlet; very cool) All convictions grow along a borderline Subject change: By the way, I got to meet John Villasana and hear his band "True Stories" play in downtown San Antonio last night. John plays one hell of a mean bass guitar! You can always tell a bass player who likes Rush; they work twice as hard, and contribute three times as much, as an "ordinary" bass player. Alan Poff. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:19:13 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: the man hater's club bob wrote: < She's just so totally open & honest she leaves herself open to the criticism. > bob, well stated! I think this is the only logical/sane comment I've seen in this entire thread... while I realize this *is*, after all, JMDL and we are, of course, drawn to all things Joni and, while her art *is* cofessional it is still art and the beauty of it is that you perceive/interpret what you perceive/interpret when you experience it just as I do... and it may very well widely differ from my perception... that's art! perhaps it is interesting to know the reason Vincent severed his ear or just who is depicted in the 'Mona Lisa', but it is sheer grandiosity to think that the knowing in any way elevates the perceiver to any degree of creativity or brings the artist down to anywhere near their level, yet that is the feeling I get from many of these posters... I, for one, do not feel I am in any place to be able to discern what makes Joni tick for that would require me to walk a mile in her shoes and that is something these humble feet could never do because she is a true artist (perhaps the greatest of this century) and there is no way I could begin to fathom what her life experience is... and I knew her face-to-face! thanks for the voice of reason... *S* pat http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:24:24 -0500 From: patrick leader Subject: words and triangles (njc) hey mark, you wrote: >And I think (can you see the light bulb going on over my head, Michael?) that that is also why the term queer has been embraced by the gay community and several other groups that in the past have been forced into the fringe of society because of their difference from the so-called norm. well, i'm seeing the lightbulb and cheering. reclaiming the words that have been used to hurt is extremely empowering. and with queer, the notion of otherness as being something to be proud of is changing our society. do you know how many kids self-identified as queer regardless of their actual sexuality? this is how tolerance spreads. eric wrote: > I can't understand why gay people want to identify with the pink triangle > Hitler devised to identify homosexuals for mass-murder. this is an easy one. most people didn't know that the final solution included homosexuals until act-up publicized it. when i was taught about the holocaust, homosexuals were certainly not mentioned. i didn't learn of this until the early eighties. if you think back eric, i'm sure your experience was similar. the pink triangle reclaims history. and this is critical history. think about this. i learned that the nazis wanted to exterminate all homosexuals and sent thousands to their deaths in the concentration camps, at about the same time that tattoos and quarantines for hiv+ people were being seriously proposed in the united states. i think most people saw the connection, and that helped lower the level of aids hysteria. william f. buckley does not brag about his tattoo suggestion, i promise you. patrick, on the soapbox again, behavior i'd sworn to eschew (gesunheidt) np - diva mush (in the mail tomorrow, m) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:47:15 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: the man hater's club In a message dated 1/24/99 9:19:08 AM Central Standard Time, Dreamzvill writes: << But really, Bob....it's because of the way she touched your hand, right? :) >> Boy, you're right about that! I only wish she would have recorded "Some day he'll come along the man I love, and he'll be big and strong, the man I love" AFTER our meeting....then I could *really* fantasize!! :^D Bob NP: The Dukes of Stratosphear, "Vanishing Girl" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:02:51 +0000 From: catman Subject: Wet Yourselves I just got back from seeing Practical Magic. There is a brief scene where Joni singing A Case of You is played on the car radio. Now I am going to write to Warner Brothers and ask for a commission since I have just single handedly increased their take at the box office. bw colin - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:23:48 -0500 (EST) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: Pink triangles & Jewish stars (NJC) And let's not forget the cross as an example of how symbols can take on new meanings. At one time a symbol of punishment and death, now a symbol of hope & salvation to many. gdave NP: NRPS: Raoul's, Portland, OR. 1/24/91 - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:19:23 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Pink triangles & Jewish stars (NJC) And, unfortunately, a symbol of intolerance, fear, racism and sexism to others. gr8fuldave wrote: > And let's not forget the cross as an example of how symbols can take on > new meanings. At one time a symbol of punishment and death, now a symbol > of hope & salvation to many. > > gdave > > NP: NRPS: Raoul's, Portland, OR. 1/24/91 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > DaveBase @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:20:06 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: fred simon (NJC) "Deb Messling" wrote: >>Is there a Fred Simon on this list? Is he a musician? Does he have >> CDs out? >>Found a Fred Simon CD among boxes of donated stuff waiting to be >> catalogued at my library, and I was just wondering. and Jerry Notaro responded: >>Fred is a pianist, musician, writer who now resides in Chicago, I >> believe, and is very much a list member. We've never met, but I've >> enjoyed his posts, and some list members have gone to hear him >>perform. Man, my ears are burning. Yes, I am a list member, although I tend to come and go, and not necessarily speaking of Michelangelo. I was strolling through some recent digests and the shock of recognition hit me ... "Fred Simon? Now why does that name sound familiar?" Then it hit me ... So, Deb, I am humbled ... which album of mine had someone discarded? Did you give it a spin? And Jerry, thanks for the kind words. One more thing -- about that (NJC) tag ... just want to let everyone know that actually there is quite a bit of Joni content in me. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #42 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. 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