From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #42
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Monday, January 25 1999 Volume 04 : Number 042
The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes
by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery
username: jimdle password: siquomb
-------
The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
joni chat room [evian ]
Re: Grace Slick and Joni ["Kakki" ]
Women back-ups [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons)]
Dave Van Ronk's Joni covers ["Deb Messling" ]
Sue on Mingus [simon@icu.com]
[none] [Mark Klempner ]
Re: the man hater's club [Dreamzvill@aol.com]
Iris Dement (NJC) ["Marsha" ]
Re: the man hater's club ["Marsha" ]
Re: the man hater's club ["P. Henry" ]
Fag Hag [Alan ]
Re: the man hater's club ["P. Henry" ]
words and triangles (njc) [patrick leader ]
Re: the man hater's club [RMuRocks@aol.com]
Wet Yourselves [catman ]
Re: Pink triangles & Jewish stars (NJC) [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)]
Re: Pink triangles & Jewish stars (NJC) [catman
Subject: joni chat room
There IS a Joni chat room, on mIRC. It is on effnet, and there was a
post last week announcing its arrival. C'mon people, download mIRC!
It's free, and although it looks confusing as hell, after u spend a week
of pulling your hair out trying to figure it out, it is easy as pie!
Evian
np: Diana Ross "Swept Away"... this song makes me wanna shake my fat ass
til the cows come home! LOL
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:38:17 -0800
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: Grace Slick and Joni
Kenny wrote:
>I noticed some minor interaction bewteen Grace and Joni on the Dick Cavett
Show
>of 8/18/69, which I watched again just last week. He introduced Joni as a
"true
>musical artist," and Grace, "We Can Be Together" -- had a belittled look
>on her face, as if this was simultaneously an insult to her and her
artistry
>(at least this was *my* interpretation, I saw a slight cringe on her face
at
>that moment.)
I interpreted it just the opposite. Somehow, I detected a slightly
patronizing tone in Cavett's voice and I thought that was what prompted
Grace's grimace. Cavett always sounded rather patronizing in general to me,
but I've gotten used to his air over the years.
> But it didn't stop her from joining the crowd in giving Joni a
>standing ovation after one of her songs (For Free I believe.)
I recall that she was the first one to jump to her feet and applaud Joni
heartily.
>Also, I could swear that a few months ago someone posted an excerpt of
Grace's
>new autobiography with a Joni reference, and as I recall, it went something
>like this: "I saw Joni in a restaurant in LA a few years ago, and I was
gonna
>walk up to her and say hi, but I felt intimidated. You know, anyone who's
>musician enough to work with Charles Mingus..."
I don't know about this passage or what was up with her if she said it. I
can't recall the titles of the articles, but I have read Joni speak
favorably and affectionately of Grace and I've read Grace lauding Joni to
the skies. Maybe some searches on the JMDL site will bring up these
references. The members of Jefferson Airplane, Phil Lesh, Graham Nash, Neil
Young, Jerry Garcia and Joni all had one big jam session on a number of cuts
on Crosby's 1971 solo album "If I Could Only Remember My Name" and I've also
read accounts of these sessions somewhere which indicated their friendship.
I wasn't going to mention this before but it is relevant - Joni and Grace
also currently share Robbie Cavolina as a very close friend.
>But I was very saddened to read that passage from her bio. While I agree
that
>she's not as muti-talented as Joni, she's certainly an icon and has solid
>achievements of her own that I -- and indeed many -- respect. I thought it
was
>weird that she felt too "intimidated" by Joni to approach her. I guess her
>"sordid past" has a serious affect on her self-confidence.
I don't know - Grace has always struck me in interviews as someone who is
pretty philosophical about her past. Maybe the sense of intimidation stems
from the same awe that some of us have of Joni. Many artists who would be
considered in Joni's league (well, at least close to it) have also exhibited
the same shyness in her presence against all standard logic. There are some
people in my life who have been friends for years who I still feel shy with
at times, because I am in awe of their talent. Not to digress, but I recall
an article about the time Joni and Larry spent living in England while
recording "Chalk Mark" and they invited Plant and Page of Led Zeppelin to
come over for a visit. Larry tells the story that they were totally
intimidated meeting her and acted like gawky, speechless schoolboys with a
huge crush in her presence. This from the guys who had a huge hit years
earlier with "Going to California" which was about Joni. But back to
Grace - there was a time when they hung out together and they do think well
of each other (although I'll leave it open to someone to find some statement
to refute this). Their boyfriends and buddies were close friends with each
other and collaborated on some songs together. But regardless of that, maybe
Grace was intimidated for other number of reasons. She has had some
embarrassing publicity in recent years (drunkeness, shooting a gun at
people) and that, too, may have had something to do with her reluctance to
face an old friend.
If I find the references again, I'll post you privately, Kenny. Don't want
to push my luck ;-)
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:30:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons)
Subject: Women back-ups
Joni also had Brenda Russell sing on Ray's Dad's Cadillac.
Another subject, looking through Billboards Page last night I saw that
Nicolette Larson died last year.
What happened to her?
And Gina, I've enjoyed your downunder, down-home posts so much. I had
to grin when you made mention of your child "noodling" around the piano
the other day. In my husband's family "noodle" is the slang term for
the 5 year olds' and under "family jewels". Just thought I'd share
that.
God bless all
Penny
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:20:32 +0000
From: "Deb Messling"
Subject: Dave Van Ronk's Joni covers
My Sunday paper this morning referred to legendary folk singer Dave
Van Ronk as Joni Mitchell's "finest and most dedicated interpreter."
His 1976 album Sunday Street, just reissued, contains his cover of
"That Song About the Midway." Has anyone heard it?
I own his Songs for Ageing Children album, which includes his cover
of "River," as well as his original "Song for Joni."
Deb Messling
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:45:56 -0800
From: simon@icu.com
Subject: Sue on Mingus
Marilyn wrote ...
>__________________________________________________________________________
>> Some more credits trivia:
>> Susan Webb (sister of singer-songwriter Jimmy Webb) is credited with
>> background vocals on "Down to You". Susan idolized and emulated Joni
>> back in the early 70s on her own couple of albums and covered some of
>> Joni's songs on them, including "Case of You."
>>
>> Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman are the background singers credited on
>> "The Tea Leaf Prophecy."
>>
>> Kakki
>
>I knew that there was 'Sue' on Mingus, and someone else on DJRD in "The
>Tenth World" but, they were never big names. I just thought they were
>friends. I always ASSumed that Joni did her own background vocals
>(other than the guys) since she had such a unique voice.
>
>Marilyn
>__________________________________________________________________________
FWIW: the Sue on the Mingus album is Susan Graham,
wife & widow of Charles Mingus.
BTW: Joni appears on two of Jimmy Webb's albums,
LETTERS in 1972 and LANDS END in 1974.
- -------
simon
- -------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:13:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Klempner
Subject: [none]
Marilyn wrote:
If you really look at it, Joni is a woman hater! She often likes to dress
as black man (she considers herself as a black man stuck in a white
woman's body). Look at DJRD, the Beat of Black Wings video and in the
S&L video. She puts down the majority of woman artists. The only one she
really gives praises to are Shawn Colvin & Janet Jackson. And Janet is
black. She considers herself as "one of the guys" and every bit as good
as any male artist and hates the "female" separation. She hangs out with
men gay or not. She's never had any women artists sing or play with her
in concerts or on recordings. And she loathes the Lilith fair. I think
she's a woman hater!
Mark K. writes:
Whoa! Marilyn, thanks for your incendiary (to use a word J turned me on
to) opinion. But what about the songs Joni has written to women, and
all the times she mentions women affectionately in her songs? I'm
thinking of Ladies of the Canyon, Amelia, and--I'm sure there's more. On
TTT she has that line, "I think of Anna . . . ." sung with such affection.
No, I think--maybe--Joni's public self hates women, cause she's so sick of
being compared to other women in the biz who are not in her league, and
being devalued as a result because they are "new and improved"--words Joni
used in a conversation I had with her about ten years ago re: Tracy
Chapman winning a slew of Grammys. I suspect that privately she is no
woman hater! Interesting that the two women artists you mention she has
spoken well of are both women who have honored Joni: Janet by her words in
public, and by her use of Joni's material; Shawn by her words in public,
including--on the liner notes to--I think it was--"Fat City" that thank
you to Joni that says something like "You genius--me wimp." Maybe she's
like Segovia: he couldn't tolerate any classical guitarist who didn't pay
homage to him. Segovia gave/did so much for the classical guitar, that I
feel this was a reasonable expectation. I feel similarly re: Joni and the
domain of singer/songwriters (NOT women singer/songwriters!) BTW, did you
ever hear that little anecdote about Dylan. He was asked in an interview
what women singer/songwriters he liked. He said something like, "None of
'em." The interviewer came back with "What about Joni Mitchell?" He
said sl "Oh Joni. Well, in my mind she more like a man."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:19:08 EST
From: Dreamzvill@aol.com
Subject: Re: the man hater's club
In a message dated 1/23/99 9:05:56 PM !!!First Boot!!!, RMuRocks@aol.com
writes:
<< No way is she a manhater, her love songs are just too many
and too lovely. >>
But really, Bob....it's because of the way she touched your hand, right? :)
Love, Susan C.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:02:14 -0500
From: "Marsha"
Subject: Iris Dement (NJC)
Hi, everyone.
I was late for Iris' performance last night with the assumption
her show would start like at the rest at our new acoustic
club in Knoxville, so I missed half of it---shucks.
That voice! So powerful for her itty bitty frame. And when she
speaks an octave lower and slower, I picture a wind-up
key on her back, activated as she sings in that warbling
and tight vibrato...a funny contrast.
Her song that made me cry was Easier's Gettin' Harder Every
Day...and of course her finale My Life. The protest song
Wasteland of the Free was a bit trite for rhyming's sake,
and I guess I have never much gotten into "this world is
shit" songs that don't have subtlety or softer metaphors
like Joni's Exxon Blue and Radiation Rose references.
Iris will be at a little hole in the wall in Chattanooga Monday
night, and I am tempted to go. The webowner kindly put up
my photo with Iris on his site last year, and of course she
graciously hung out to greet all after the show. Ran into
my Beatle-loving college roommate too, so it was a fun
evening. (Hey, Terry...she tells me she has an entire
bathroom decorated with Beatles!!!!!)
Busy with school and interviews for potential beaus,
Marsha
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:06:48 -0500
From: "Marsha"
Subject: Re: the man hater's club
>In a message dated 1/23/99 9:05:56 PM !!!First Boot!!!, RMuRocks@aol.com
>writes:
>
><< No way is she a manhater, her love songs are just too many
> and too lovely. >>
>
>But really, Bob....it's because of the way she touched your hand, right? :)
>
> Love, Susan C.
Joni may have sweetly touched ol' Bob's hand, but I personally
witnessed her whispering "Man is the Sire of Sorrow" in his ear
at the same time.... ;-)
Marsha
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:32:39 -0000
From: "P. Henry"
Subject: Re: the man hater's club
ric wrote:
< really, the list is endless...and yet we are hard pressed to come up with 3 examples of women. what IS up with that? >
ummm... I dunno... do ya think maybe it could have something to do with the sound? when I was a singer I always tended to sing with people I sounded good with... (and boy-girl harmony is so natural...)
funny thing is, I never sang with *anyone* that we sounded so good together as when I sang with Joni... I used to get goosebumps! in some ways, she taught me to sing... think she liked it too... *G*
btw, Carol King is another we can add to the short list... pat
ps - my mind just flashed to the very familiar pic on wally's site at newport, around the mike: cass elliot, joan baez, mimi farina, judy collins and Joni... *S*
Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:06:58 -0600
From: Alan
Subject: Fag Hag
Gee, the disadvantages of being on the digest list... (but then, when
you only have a chance to check your mail once a day, most days, there
isn't much point in switching to the individual list either).
I had many comments about the Fag Hag thread, but then I saw that Eric
and Lori said just about everything I wanted to say (and they probably
said it better than I could have); both about how meaningless labels
are, and about how groups tend to take ownership of the labels and throw
them back at their attackers.
I'm straight (so sue me), but it just sickens me to hear people attach
negative importance to labels, especially regarding something as
trivial, personal, and meaningless (in terms of what kind of person you
are) as sexual preference.
I really admired Sarah McLachlan when she refused to let people label
her; I think she called herself "omni sexual," and I remember thinking,
what a cool, and polite, way to reject being labeled. Likewise, I
remember reading that Joni refused to be called a "feminist," even
though her life has been an example of free will and independence,
because she didn't like the male bashing that was associated to the
"feminist" label.
Thinking about this thread, Borderline started going through my head. I
had to go put on TI.
Every bristling shaft of pride
Church or nation
Team or tribe
Every notion we subscribe to
Is just a borderline.
Good or bad, we think we know;
As if thinking makes it so! (Shakespeare: Hamlet; very cool)
All convictions grow along a borderline
Subject change: By the way, I got to meet John Villasana and hear his
band "True Stories" play in downtown San Antonio last night. John plays
one hell of a mean bass guitar! You can always tell a bass player who
likes Rush; they work twice as hard, and contribute three times as much,
as an "ordinary" bass player.
Alan Poff.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:19:13 -0000
From: "P. Henry"
Subject: Re: the man hater's club
bob wrote:
< She's just so totally open & honest she leaves herself open to the criticism. >
bob,
well stated! I think this is the only logical/sane comment I've seen in this entire thread...
while I realize this *is*, after all, JMDL and we are, of course, drawn to all things Joni and, while her art *is* cofessional it is still art and the beauty of it is that you perceive/interpret what you perceive/interpret when you experience it just as I do... and it may very well widely differ from my perception... that's art!
perhaps it is interesting to know the reason Vincent severed his ear or just who is depicted in the 'Mona Lisa', but it is sheer grandiosity to think that the knowing in any way elevates the perceiver to any degree of creativity or brings the artist down to anywhere near their level, yet that is the feeling I get from many of these posters...
I, for one, do not feel I am in any place to be able to discern what makes Joni tick for that would require me to walk a mile in her shoes and that is something these humble feet could never do because she is a true artist (perhaps the greatest of this century) and there is no way I could begin to fathom what her life experience is... and I knew her face-to-face!
thanks for the voice of reason... *S* pat
http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html
Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:24:24 -0500
From: patrick leader
Subject: words and triangles (njc)
hey mark,
you wrote:
>And I think (can you see the light bulb going on over my head, Michael?)
that that is also why the term queer has been embraced by the gay community
and several other groups that in the past have been forced into the fringe
of society because of their difference from the so-called norm.
well, i'm seeing the lightbulb and cheering. reclaiming the words that
have been used to hurt is extremely empowering. and with queer, the notion
of otherness as being something to be proud of is changing our society. do
you know how many kids self-identified as queer regardless of their actual
sexuality? this is how tolerance spreads.
eric wrote:
> I can't understand why gay people want to identify with the pink triangle
> Hitler devised to identify homosexuals for mass-murder.
this is an easy one. most people didn't know that the final solution
included homosexuals until act-up publicized it. when i was taught about
the holocaust, homosexuals were certainly not mentioned. i didn't learn of
this until the early eighties. if you think back eric, i'm sure your
experience was similar. the pink triangle reclaims history.
and this is critical history. think about this. i learned that the nazis
wanted to exterminate all homosexuals and sent thousands to their deaths in
the concentration camps, at about the same time that tattoos and
quarantines for hiv+ people were being seriously proposed in the united
states. i think most people saw the connection, and that helped lower the
level of aids hysteria. william f. buckley does not brag about his tattoo
suggestion, i promise you.
patrick, on the soapbox again, behavior i'd sworn to eschew (gesunheidt)
np - diva mush (in the mail tomorrow, m)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:47:15 EST
From: RMuRocks@aol.com
Subject: Re: the man hater's club
In a message dated 1/24/99 9:19:08 AM Central Standard Time, Dreamzvill
writes:
<< But really, Bob....it's because of the way she touched your hand, right? :)
>>
Boy, you're right about that!
I only wish she would have recorded "Some day he'll come along the man I love,
and he'll be big and strong, the man I love" AFTER our meeting....then I could
*really* fantasize!! :^D
Bob
NP: The Dukes of Stratosphear, "Vanishing Girl"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:02:51 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Wet Yourselves
I just got back from seeing Practical Magic. There is a brief scene
where Joni singing A Case of You is played on the car radio.
Now I am going to write to Warner Brothers and ask for a commission
since I have just single handedly increased their take at the box
office.
bw
colin
- --
CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:23:48 -0500 (EST)
From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)
Subject: Re: Pink triangles & Jewish stars (NJC)
And let's not forget the cross as an example of how symbols can take on
new meanings. At one time a symbol of punishment and death, now a symbol
of hope & salvation to many.
gdave
NP: NRPS: Raoul's, Portland, OR. 1/24/91
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
DaveBase @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:19:23 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: Pink triangles & Jewish stars (NJC)
And, unfortunately, a symbol of intolerance, fear, racism and sexism to
others.
gr8fuldave wrote:
> And let's not forget the cross as an example of how symbols can take on
> new meanings. At one time a symbol of punishment and death, now a symbol
> of hope & salvation to many.
>
> gdave
>
> NP: NRPS: Raoul's, Portland, OR. 1/24/91
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> DaveBase @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html
- --
CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:20:06 EST
From: FredNow@aol.com
Subject: Re: fred simon (NJC)
"Deb Messling" wrote:
>>Is there a Fred Simon on this list? Is he a musician? Does he have
>>
CDs out?
>>Found a Fred Simon CD among boxes of donated stuff waiting to be
>>
catalogued at my library, and I was just wondering.
and Jerry Notaro responded:
>>Fred is a pianist, musician, writer who now resides in Chicago, I
>>
believe, and is very much a list member. We've never met, but I've
>>
enjoyed his posts, and some list members have gone to hear him
>>perform.
Man, my ears are burning. Yes, I am a list member, although I tend to come and
go, and not necessarily speaking of Michelangelo. I was strolling through some
recent digests and the shock of recognition hit me ... "Fred Simon? Now why
does that name sound familiar?" Then it hit me ...
So, Deb, I am humbled ... which album of mine had someone discarded? Did you
give it a spin?
And Jerry, thanks for the kind words.
One more thing -- about that (NJC) tag ... just want to let everyone know that
actually there is quite a bit of Joni content in me.
- -Fred Simon
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V4 #42
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