From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #41 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, January 24 1999 Volume 04 : Number 041 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Fag Hag (NJC) ["Eric Taylor" ] sunshine radio (VLJC) [Mary Becker ] Hinton's BSN [The Humphreys ] Re: Furry: He-Man's, Woman Haters Club.... NOT ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: Furry: He-Man's, Woman Haters Club.... NOT [Mark-n-Travis ] NJC:Lighbulbs [catman ] Re: the man hater's club [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Furry: He-Man's, Woman Haters Club.... NOT [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Fag Hag (NJC) [catman ] Re: Fag Hag (NJC) [catman ] Re: the man hater's club [catman ] Re: Fag Hag (NJC) [catman ] Re: Fag Hag (NJC) [LRFye@aol.com] Re: Thesaurus (fwd)(NJC) ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ] Re: the man hater's club ["M & C Urbanski" ] See You Sometime [Ginamu@aol.com] Why not a Joni chatroom ? [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: the man hater's club [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: the man hater's club ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: the man hater's club [RickieLee1@aol.com] Joni Story From Eric Johnson List [Michael Paz ] Re: Synchronous cartoon (NJC) [catman ] NJC:back to Bjork [catman ] Re: the man hater's club and more credits trivia ["M & C Urbanski" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:50:55 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Fag Hag (NJC) I can't think of a more all-encompassing insult than fag hag. Fag is bad enough, referring to the millions of homosexual men burned at the stake throughout history. But then to add hag, referring to the millions of women burned at the stake as witches, is just plain sickening! I can't understand why gay people want to identify with the pink triangle Hitler devised to identify homosexuals for mass-murder. And why is Queer suddenly politically correct? Queer means: strange, odd, of questionable character, shady, suspect, out of sorts, giddy or faint! I will never understand what sexual preference has to do with friendship or the ability to function as a normal human being. Does that make me queer? E.T. NP: Tiger Bones ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:27:02 -0500 From: Mary Becker Subject: sunshine radio (VLJC) Hi all, I've really enjoyed all the discussion of Amelia and the rest of Hejira. Never ceases to amaze me how much I learn from this discussion list! Susan asked about sunshine radio so I thought I'd post to the whole list in case someone else is interested. The URL on my computer when I'm looking at the homepage is www2.sixtiesradio.com From there you can go to pop, psychodelic, Brit invasion, or Motown. We listened to it quite a bit when we first found it, but I think they tend to repeat the same tunes. But for all us aging hippies, worth checking out! Now I have to go listen to Hejira again ;-) Mary B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 07:28:47 -0500 From: The Humphreys Subject: Hinton's BSN I have been playing "catch up" with the digest this morning, and have noticed a couple of referrences to Hinton's "biography" of Joni. I attempted to read it after hearing it mentioned when I first joined JMDL, but was unable to finish it. I found it to be quite disjointed and full of conjecture written as if it were indeed a fact. I found myself becoming irritated with the author, who also seemed to be using this text as an outlet for his opinions regarding other persons mentioned not including Joni. Has anyone else had this problem? I don't like to criticize, particularly about someone I have no previous knowledge or experience of....can someone enlighten me regarding this author? Who is he and how is he a Joni officianado? Thanks in advance... Suzanne NP nothing, my husband's still asleep :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:18:17 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Furry: He-Man's, Woman Haters Club.... NOT > Given Joni's penchant for hanging out with gay boys playing billiards at the > Beverly Hills Athletic Club... I should call it the She-Man's, Man Haters > Club. > If the guys not leaving, down and drunk and using, not to blame, > mean and old but liked nonetheless, a strange boy, or just yanking her to her > knees, then there's something up with the negative depectioni of men. Not > that there isn't a conterpoint, either. No, I think you're off on this one! I think Joni strives (or used to) on rotten relationships. Mainly because she had her own crap to deal with. She has written things like..."I'm selfish and I'm sad...now I've gone and lost the best baby I ever had" and so on. If you really look at it, Joni is a woman hater! She often likes to dress as black man (she considers herself as a black man stuck in a white woman's body). Look at DJRD, the Beat of Black Wings video and in the S&L video. She puts down the majority of woman artists. The only one she really gives praises to are Shawn Colvin & Janet Jackson. And Janet is black. She considers herself as "one of the guys" and every bit as good as any male artist and hates the "female" separation. She hangs out with men gay or not. She's never had any women artists sing or play with her in concerts or on recordings. And she loathes the Lilith fair. I think she's a woman hater! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 10:35:49 EST From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: Furry: He-Man's, Woman Haters Club.... NOT I don't know, I always saw the line you quoted as pertaining to the Kilauren story. "I'm selfish and I'm sad, now I've gone and lost the best baby that I ever had" Relative to Blue, Little Green, River, .... just literally "baby". Anyway, I perceive a resentment on Joni's part (valid or not) of having to deal with that ethereal "glass ceiling" of business, I presume dominated by men like Geffen (gay no less). When say someone close to being her piere (Neil Young, Bob Dylan) have continued to rake it in and have major exposure to this day. Joni hates everybody, I guess :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:16:14 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Fag Hag (NJC) In a message dated 1/23/99 8:57:44 AM !!!First Boot!!!, ewwtaylor@Prodigy.net writes: << I will never understand what sexual preference has to do with friendship or the ability to function as a normal human being. >> Thank you, jonEric, for being so utterly succint...for being you! You voiced my thoughts exactly. Love, Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:29:17 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Fag Hag (NJC) Eric Taylor wrote: > > I can't think of a more all-encompassing insult than fag hag. Fag is bad > enough, referring to the millions of homosexual men burned at the stake > throughout history. But then to add hag, referring to the millions of women > burned at the stake as witches, is just plain sickening! I assume this is in response to my post about Grace Slick. To be fair to Grace, here is the exact quote from her book: ...And I'm also a fag hag. I love male energy, but I don't want the melodrama that goes with the male-female hetero dance. My buddies....have kept me out of trouble and made me laugh until my face hurts. Next to musicians and comedians, I think gay men have the best sense of humor of any group of individuals I've met. And they're also more understanding of fringe behavior than most of the "straight" people I know. Grace isn't known for being especially politically correct. There is some generalization in that quote and I will admit that the term 'fag hag' is not a pretty one. Most women I have heard the term applied to would probably not especially like it. But there have been some I've known who (like Grace) use the term to describe themselves. Is it nice? Is it correct? Probably not. I will admit that although I hesitated about sending the post that prompted Eric's response, I was curious to see what, if any, response there might be to it. I did *not* however, intend to set up a situation where I could stir up controversy and preach to the JMDL. But since Eric brought this up, I do feel the need to respond. So I'm asking for a little bit of indulgence here. > I can't understand why gay people want to identify with the pink triangle > Hitler devised to identify homosexuals for mass-murder. And why is Queer > suddenly politically correct? I've had some trouble with the term queer myself (as Michael Y can attest) but I think, Eric, that you have finally made me understand it. Did you ever see a TV movie called 'Playing for Time'? Vanessa Redgrave gave an amazing performance as a French singer named Fania Fenelon who was imprisoned as a member of the resistance by the Nazi's in a death camp during WWII. She was also Jewish. At some point of the film one of her fellow inmates figures out a way that she & Fania can remove half (one of the overlapping triangles) of the yellow Star of David armband that the Jews were forced to wear. This would maybe have made their chances of survival greater and improved their status in the camp hierarchy. It would have, in effect, said that they were only 'half' Jewish, whatever that means. Anyway, Fania sews the other half back on to her star because in the end she cannot bring herself to deny who & what she is. She robs the Nazi's of their ability to make this symbol, that represents something sacred to the Jews, shameful. I think that is why the pink triangle has become a symbol of the homosexual community. We are saying 'yes, this is what we are, we are proud of it and no matter what you do to us, we are not going to be ashamed of it or hide it or go back in the closet ever again'. The symbol has been turned around, robbed of the fear & shame associated with it and made into a source of pride. And I think (can you see the light bulb going on over my head, Michael?) that that is also why the term queer has been embraced by the gay community and several other groups that in the past have been forced into the fringe of society because of their difference from the so-called norm. The term that has been inappropriately flung at us for so long as an insult is being turned around, just like the pink triangle, and the feeling is 'yes, we're queer and we're proud of it and nothing you can do or say will make us deny who & what we are'. Ok, off the soapbox now. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:36:14 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Furry: He-Man's, Woman Haters Club.... NOT M & C Urbanski wrote: She's never had any women artists sing or play with her in concerts > or on recordings. Well as Romeo Void once said, 'never say never.' I do know of at lease *one* song that has a female backup singer. 'Dreamland' features Chaka Khan backing Joni. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 11:54:56 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Furry: He-Man's, Woman Haters Club.... NOT DKasc13293@aol.com wrote: > then there's something up with the negative depectioni of men. Not > that there isn't a conterpoint, either. I remember reading something when 'Wild Things Run Fast' came out along these lines. I think it was a letter to the editor. Maybe in Rolling Stone. Anyway, it was about the song WTRF and as I recall the author was complaining about Joni's negative depiction of men as wild things that always run out on her. I kind of thought this was a bit ironic considering the same album has the song 'Man to Man' on it in which Joni addresses her own inability to commit. I suppose a case could be made that Joni's songs have a tendency to dump on men - 'Woman of Heart & Mind', 'Ladies Man', etc - but she also occasionally gives unflattering portraits of women - 'Shade of Scarlett Conquering' - and even finds that she herself is less than perfect. I think 'River' is a good example of the latter (and I don't think the line 'He loved me so naughty made me weak in the knees' can in any way be construed as a reference to Kilauren - no offence intended, Duane :-D). 'Man to Man' is another: "lotta good guys gone through my door". Ok, enough for now. It's another cloudy, wet January day here in the Northwest. I guess that means there isn't much else to do but inflict my much too wordy thoughts & opinions on all of you. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:54:16 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: Fag Hag (NJC) Eric wrote: > I can't understand why gay people want to identify with the pink triangle > Hitler devised to identify homosexuals for mass-murder. And why is Queer > suddenly politically correct? I think it has to do with "taking back" symbols and terms instead of allowing them to be shameful or hurtful. It's like the word "dyke," which for some reason is still regarded as quite an insult in the South (even among lesbians), but which is interchangeable with the word "lesbian" in the North. (That is not meant to imply that folks in the North -- where I grew up -- are more sophisticated. Perhaps folks in the South -- where I choose to live -- just have better manners.) When a label is hurled with the intention of causing emotional pain, one must either steel him/herself against being insulted, come back with a suitable return insult, or take back ownership of the label. "You've got to shake your fists at lightening now" I've been waiting for almost 20 years to hurl a comeback that I (believe I) invented to the unsuspecting str8 woman who might yell "DYKE!" at me, but as I get older I'm less inclined to stoop to that level. (Damn it, anyway, it's such a good one. So good -- and so nasty -- that I can't write it here.) > Queer means: strange, odd, of questionable > character, shady, suspect, out of sorts, giddy or faint! True, but words often become redefined through time. "Queer," though according to dictionary definition is "usu. used disparagingly," does in fact also mean homosexual. The trick is to remove the disparaging intent. > I will never understand what sexual preference has to do with friendship or > the ability to function as a normal human being. > Does that make me queer? Not on this list, thank goodness! Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:22:13 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: the man hater's club << < M & C Urbanski wrote: She's never had any women artists sing or play with her in concerts > or on recordings. to which mark in seattle replied... Well as Romeo Void once said, 'never say never.' I do know of at lease *one* song that has a female backup singer. 'Dreamland' features Chaka Khan backing Joni. Mark in Seattle >> and i add... and wendy and lisa, of prince fame, backing her up on tea leaf prophecy...there must be more... i think it is different to make general disparaging comments about men - as i can't think of an example where she ever did that (altho i could be very wrong) than to make what might be construed as negative comments about a specific male character in a song. woman of heart and mind, eg. this is not some treatise on men! this is an honest, and i think ultimately rather tender assessment of a single guy - to whom she pledges "you know i'll try to be there for you, when your spirits start to sink" - nothing hateful there! and all the examples you cited duane, [carey (mean old daddy) cherokee louise (yanks her to her knees) furry (the entire song, which oddly i guess, i see as a wonderful tribute to furry and to the whole era from which he came) and several others] fall, i think, into that category. she isn't making sweeping generalizations of men - she's talking about a specific man, and there is a huge difference. at least to my eye... peace, ric >> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:29:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Re: Fag Hag (NJC) I also think that who and intent has a lot to do with the meaning of the term. If another gay man were to use the term fag with me I would think he would mean homosexual in a slang way. If, however, someone who didn't know me and yelled fag to me on the street I would imagine it to be an insult. Also, since Grace is referring to herself, and she speaks of the situation as favorable, I don't think she meant it as an insult. Personally I got a chuckle when I read the phrase in Mark's original post. I know many women who love to hang with gay men for the very same reasons as Grace has stated. Another Southern version is the term fruit fly. I picked that one up in N'Awlins. Jerry On Sat, 23 Jan 1999 LRFye@aol.com wrote: > Eric wrote: > > > I can't understand why gay people want to identify with the pink triangle > > Hitler devised to identify homosexuals for mass-murder. And why is Queer > > suddenly politically correct? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:56:43 +0000 From: catman Subject: NJC:Lighbulbs It seems one has to be very precise on this list. Whilst i am glad you all enjoyed that post, it did not originate with me-I merely changed some things to make it fit. Mind you one of you knew I was far too thick to have written it myself! - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:03:27 EST From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Re: the man hater's club In a message dated 1/23/99 2:24:52 PM Central Standard Time, RickieLee1@aol.com writes: << she isn't making sweeping generalizations of men - she's talking about a specific man, and there is a huge difference. >> And further to what Ric says, I don't think she addresses a people problem as much as she addresses the issues of injustice (Magdalene, Cherokee, No Apologies, etc). No way is she a manhater, her love songs are just too many and too lovely. She's just so totally open & honest she leaves herself open to the criticism. Bob NP: Seal "When A Man Is Wrong" Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:13:05 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Furry: He-Man's, Woman Haters Club.... NOT In a message dated 1/23/99 10:22:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, artwear@ncweb.com writes: > The only one she really gives > praises to are Shawn Colvin & Janet Jackson. I was wondering if anyone could tell me what Joni said in praise of Shawn Colvin, or refer me to the appropriate source. Thanks! Gina ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:14:55 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Fag Hag (NJC) terms for homsexual: gay shirtlifter bum bandit poofter bent shit shagger queer fag light footed friend of dorothy queen one of them pansy nancy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:15:06 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Fag Hag (NJC) Mark that was an excellent response-so glad you did it whilst i was thinking of my own-saves me the trouble and I don't think i couyld have been so precise either! As for the word queer, at least i can say it and hear it now without cringing. Tho it still depends on the context.... Wehn doing some business dealings yesterday, I was asked something about my wife. I always say 'i don't have a wife but I have a partner and his name is John'. If people assume i am str8 I always let them know I am not. One good thing-my bank treats me as 'married' and thus I have a credit card and overdraft etc. They know my income is not from a job but from John. With the house we are buying and John's penison etc we are having to have a Dedd Of Trust drawn up to make sure i am protected. Maybe one day we willl have the same legal rights..... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:17:32 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: the man hater's club I KNOW that Joni does not hate men-not at all-not one bit-I'm a man and I know she doesn't hate me! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:18:08 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Fag Hag (NJC) Lori-I have often wondered how the term dyke came to be. Does it have anything to do with Holland, that boy and his finger and those dykes? Where we are moving to is full of dykes(the Dutch kind)! As for your mean and nasty retort please let me know what it is! luv colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:27:55 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: Fag Hag (NJC) Colin wrote: > Lori-I have often wondered how the term dyke came to be. Does it have > anything to > do with Holland, that boy and his finger and those dykes? I should know my gay history, but I really don't. Webster's online dictionary says the origin of "dyke" is unknown, but that the term appeared around 1942. I have a little button somewhere that says, "No dutch boy is going to put a finger in this dyke!" Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:43:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Re: Thesaurus (fwd)(NJC) Funny thing. A similar thread on online thesaurus from another list. Thought you might be interested. It is a hot topic. Jerry - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:33:10 EST From: Mickeynyc@aol.com Reply-To: gay-libn@usc.edu To: The Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual Librarians Network Subject: Re: Thesaurus In a message dated 1/23/99 4:01:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, kathen@hotmail.com writes: > Addendum to my two cents' worth: For the record, yes, fair is fair. > Given that the alleged purpose of a thesaurus is to provide alternate > terminology, there should be entries for all commonly-identified groups > or for none (and if the purpose has to do with expression of the > language, by rights it should be all). Otherwise, there's no way to > evade questions of discrimination. > I agree. That is also disturbing to me: provide the same alternative terminology for other minority or ethnic or religious populations as for homosexuals. In addition, I agree that to list "pederast" as a near-synonym for homosexual, without noting that it is inaccurate, and is used as an insult, is also wrong. But that reminds me of the history of LCSH vis a vis "homosexual." Do you folks know the different historical phases that the LC Subject Headings have reflected, of homosexuals/gays/lesbians? It is historically interesting and important as part of our social and lexicological history, IMO. (I'm not able to look it up from home, but wasn't the word "pervert" used as the official LCSH for homosexual in the earlier part of the 20th C.?) Mickey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:59:46 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: the man hater's club RickieLee1@aol.com wrote: > << < > M & C Urbanski wrote: > She's never had any women artists sing or play with her in concerts > > or on recordings. > > to which mark in seattle replied... > > Well as Romeo Void once said, 'never say never.' I do know of at lease > *one* song that has a female backup singer. 'Dreamland' features Chaka > Khan backing Joni. > > Mark in Seattle >> > > and i add... > > and wendy and lisa, of prince fame, backing her up on tea leaf > prophecy...there must be more... > Also she used Sting's female back up singer (whose name escapes me) for the song "Number One" at the televised Amnesty International concert a few years ago. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:23:21 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: the man hater's club - ---------- > From: Randy Remote > To: JoniList > Subject: Re: the man hater's club > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 4:59 PM > > > > RickieLee1@aol.com wrote: > > > << < > > M & C Urbanski wrote: > > She's never had any women artists sing or play with her in concerts > > > or on recordings. > > > > to which mark in seattle replied... > > > > Well as Romeo Void once said, 'never say never.' I do know of at lease > > *one* song that has a female backup singer. 'Dreamland' features Chaka > > Khan backing Joni. > > > > Mark in Seattle >> > > > > and i add... > > > > and wendy and lisa, of prince fame, backing her up on tea leaf > > prophecy...there must be more... > > > > Also she used Sting's female back up singer (whose name escapes me) for the song > "Number One" at the televised Amnesty International concert a few years ago. OK OK..... UNCLE!!!!! I WAS WRONG!!! It's just that she sure as hell had no problem hanging on to Coolieo at the grammys or Seal or dancing with her friend on the "painting with words" tv concert! Marilyn > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:45:31 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: See You Sometime It's been some time since I've listened to For The Roses. As always, I wonder about the line "pack your suspenders, I'll come meet your plane" from the song See You Sometime. Is this line about James Taylor? I always think of his picture on the cover of Mud Slide Slim. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone personally who would care at all about this, so I have never been able to confirm it. I know her work pretty well but I'm still catching up on all the little details. Gina NP: Barangrill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:53:14 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Why not a Joni chatroom ? A thought occurred to me and probably been said before but I havent seen it posted myself ...BUT...why isnt there a Joni Mitchell chatroom ? Is this technology generally available or is it possible to create one on say AOL and then have members aware of the website they can go to. Is there anyone among us who knows how to do this ? I think it would be fun, to start one from scratch so that the appropriate thought can be put into how to organize the flow of information. Anyway it was just a thought. I couldnt find one through wallys site. thanks to any who knows and care to respond. marcel deste ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:56:47 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: the man hater's club In a message dated 1/23/99 2:28:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, artwear@ncweb.com writes: << OK OK..... UNCLE!!!!! I WAS WRONG!!! It's just that she sure as hell had no problem hanging on to Coolieo at the grammys or Seal or dancing with her friend on the "painting with words" tv concert! Marilyn >> it IS an interesting point you made tho marilyn, utterly, completely and totally wrong as it was (!!!) when one considers the number of male guest "stars" joni has had on her albums - stephen stills, david crosby, james taylor, peter gabriel, don henley, willy nelson, billy idol, tom petty, michael mcdonald, lionel richie, seal, and you know there may be more - and the number of men musicians she has worked with - tom scott, manu katche, jaco pastorius, wayne shorter, don alias, michael brecker, thomas dolby, john guerin, really, the list is endless...and yet we are hard pressed to come up with 3 examples of women. what IS up with that? hmmmmmm. this worries me. not joni's gender preference, but that al date might offer an opinion... oh oh... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:08:04 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: the man hater's club - ---------- > From: RickieLee1@aol.com > To: artwear@ncweb.com; guitarzan@saber.net; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: the man hater's club > it IS an interesting point you made tho marilyn, utterly, completely and > totally wrong as it was (!!!) when one considers the number of male guest > "stars" joni has had on her albums - stephen stills, david crosby, james > taylor, peter gabriel, don henley, willy nelson, billy idol, tom petty, > michael mcdonald, lionel richie, seal, and you know there may be more - and > the number of men musicians she has worked with - tom scott, manu katche, jaco > pastorius, wayne shorter, don alias, michael brecker, thomas dolby, john > guerin, really, the list is endless...and yet we are hard pressed to come up > with 3 examples of women. what IS up with that? > > hmmmmmm. this worries me. not joni's gender preference, but that al date > might offer an opinion... > > oh oh... THANK YOU!!! That was the point I was trying to make! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:21:49 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: the man hater's club In a message dated 1/23/99 12:30:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, DKasc13293 writes: << It's just my frame of mind today. Although, I think all the disparaging remarks in Furry is a strange way to make a tribute. >> crazy ions duane...and please don't think i am picking on you about furry - you are entitled to your opinions, and it is only because i respect them (and you!) that i am pressing the issue, but WHAT disparaging comments? her first mention of furry is: "propped up in his bed with his dentures and his wooden leg removed / and ginny's there, for her kindness and furry's beer, she's the old man's angel overseer..." she goes on to say, about furry: "you bring him smoke and drink and he'll play for you. / it's mostly muttering now and sideshow speil, but there was one song he played i could really feel..." maybe that is negative, but i see it more as just an honest depiction of a great jazz musician who's fallen into obscurity and a poverty that, i think, she is saying he does not deserve. she continues: "he points a bony finger at you and says 'i don't like you!' / everybody laughs, as if it's the old man's standard joke - but it's true. we're only welcome for our drink and smoke." if this is negative, it is more, i think, directed at joni and her entourage who swooped in on this man, "rich and fey" and set up this dichotomy that could not help but make furry feel reduced somehow...she refers to this directly in her next reference to furry: "why should i expect this old guy to give it to me, true blue, when he's fallen to hard luck and time and other thieves, and my limo is shining on his shanty street." really, the song takes my breath away. its one of those songs of hers (and there are so many) that if she had stopped right there, never written another thing, her vaunted place in music was secured. lyrically the song is just stunning. it takes a real artist to describe a scene and comment on it at the same time. for example: "pawn shops glitter like gold tooth caps; they chew the last few dollars off old beale street's carcass" this is a literal description of what she sees as she's "lookin' up and down old beale street" and yet it simultaneously expounds upon it, broadens its meaning. its a brilliant song, on a breathtaking, timeless album. but there i go again, preaching to the choir. and i don't mean to disparage your sense of the song. it interests me. i just don't understand it. take care of yourself. i hope you are feeling better. winter doesn't help much does it? in fact, it could be winter and the dour mood it inspires that is sparking my enthusiasm for this depressing song. but i am going to jamaica in a few weeks. maybe some tropical sunshine will help! nothing winter brings, negril can't cure. and jamaica's cash crop may assist in that regard as well... hee hee. peace, ric ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:24:58 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Joni Story From Eric Johnson List Here is a story posted on the Eric Johnson list. Park is the webman for the list. I thought some of you might enjoy the content and get a virtual kick out of it. Have a great weekend Paz Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:45:32 -0600 From: Park Street Subject: ej-l RE: NEJC Joni Mitchell At 12:22 PM +0000 1/22/99, Mitch Keen wrote: >Park- you don't know how envious I am- I'd be really interested to hear >the Joni Mitchell in London story!!!- OK. Here ya go. While in London in 1977 I went to a party thrown by Columbia Records for Weather Report. I had known the members of Weather Report for several years through my association with the Magnets and had been hopping around on part of their European tour with them. It happened that Joni Mitchell was in town to get Jaco Pastorius, Weather Report's bass player to overdub some parts on her upcoming release "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter" and she was at the party. I had by then met quite a few truly famous people and normally was fairly unaffected by their fame, charisma etc., but something about Joni Mitchell caused me to be incredibly shy. She is quite a small woman and either through my normal protective nature toward small women or through my projection of her from her music I found her incredibly attractive and seemingly vulnerable. I talked to others and didn't approach her. Later that night Jaco came up and asked me if I had gotten a chance to meet her. I mumbled shyly that no I hadn't but certainly didn't want to bother her. Jaco probably sensing my shyness and perhaps wanting to see what would happen simply got behind me and pushed me physically up to her and said "Joni this is a good friend of mine from Texas. Take him over in the corner and talk to him" and that is exactly what she did. There I was and the first words out of my mouth were, " I'd just like to tell you that you and Tom Lehrer are my favorite songwriters". "Who is Tom Lehrer" she asked. (For those who don't know, Tom Lehrer was a Harvard mathematics professor, who in the 50's and early 60's had a cult following doing songs based on current events or obscure scientific errata. Examples of this were; the periodic table sung to the Major General's song from Pirate's of Penzance by Gilbert and Sullivan; The Masochism Tango, a piece on the subject done of course to a passionate tango; Wernher Von Braun, a blistering satire of Wernher Von Braun, the former Nazi rocket scientist and then head of the American space program and the Vatican Rag which I'm sure made him persona non grata with the Catholic Church.) At this point in our conversation my consciousness seemed to float up to the ceiling, like survivors describe of their near death experiences, while I watched helplessly as I sang snatches of Lehrer songs to her. Since I never sing in public, having a voice I have never felt proud of, this was simply beyond my wildest imagination. Also here I was singing such lines as: >From the Masochism Tango and sung to a tango beat- Let our love be a flame not an ember, Say it's me that you want to dismamber. Blacken my eye. Set fire to my tie. As we dance to the masochism tango. Take your cigarette from it's holder and burn your initials in my shoulder. Fracture my spine, and swear that your mine. As we dance to the masochism tango. >From the Vatican Rag- First you get down on your knees, then you play with your rosary. Bow your head with great respect and genuflect, genuflect, genuflect. Get in line in that processional, Step into that small confessional. There the guy who's got religion'll Tell you if your sins original. If it is, try playin it safer, Drink the wine and chew the wafer. Two, four, six, eight Time to transubstantiate. These and several others I sang, and thankfully she gigled through this - which complemented Lehrer for the genius of lyrics which could evidently not be destroyed by even my singing. Before we were able to really talk much more her manager came over and spirited her away to meet someone else. The whole experience took less than five minutes but was certainly one of the strangest experiences of my life. Several years later I was able to give her the three Tom Lehrer albums backstage at one of her concerts during the Shadows and Light Tour. I heard second hand she once mentioned Lehrer in an interview but never saw the actual interview. I hope it's true. Best wishes to all, Park ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:30:50 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: See You Sometime In a message dated 1/23/99 2:57:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, Ginamu@aol.com writes: << As always, I wonder about the line "pack your suspenders, I'll come meet your plane" from the song See You Sometime. Is this line about James Taylor? >> it has always been my understanding that the entire album, from the title cut to lesson in survival, to blonde in the bleachers, to woman of heart and mind, to see you sometime - were all about james taylor and the end of their relationship. i don't know where i heard this, but it is my understanding that "you turn me on, i'm a radio" is supposed to be a direct reply to taylor's "hey mister that's me up on the jukebox". don't know if its true but its kinda interesting (to those of us with the joni obsessive gene anyway...) great album! love, ric ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:24:50 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: the man hater's club and more credits trivia Marilyn wrote: >OK OK..... UNCLE!!!!! I WAS WRONG!!! It's just that she sure as hell had >no problem hanging on to Coolieo at the grammys or Seal or dancing with her >friend on the "painting with words" tv concert! Actually Marilyn, you inspired me to check out some of the credits on my Joni albums and it made me wonder whether there is a full listing of credits somewhere on the Joni sites for her discography. I don't recall seeing one, and it would be great to compile because she has had such an interesting, and sometimes surprising, collection of people record with her over the years. Some more credits trivia: The friend who danced with Joni on the "Painting With Words" TV special is Charles "Val" Valentino, who was her back-up singer on "Why Do Fools Falls In Love" during the show (and also one of her regular pool playing partners). Val also is credited with background vocals on "Ladies Man", on the WTRF album, and on "Yvette in English" on TI. Susan Webb (sister of singer-songwriter Jimmy Webb) is credited with background vocals on "Down to You". Susan idolized and emulated Joni back in the early 70s on her own couple of albums and covered some of Joni's songs on them, including "Case of You." Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman are the background singers credited on "The Tea Leaf Prophecy." Kakki NP: Tori Amos - Playboy Mommy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:02:42 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: Why not a Joni chatroom ? Marcel asked: > why isnt there a Joni Mitchell chatroom ? Is this technology generally available or is it possible to create one on say AOL and then have members aware of the website they can go to. On the JMDL homepage there is an area for signing up for ICQ, which many of us have done. Someone recently asked if anyone uses ICQ anymore; there was a flurry of activity at first, but then it seemed to kind of die out. Certainly we could begin a chat room (otherwise known as a cafe), but probably someone would need to take charge and post a schedule so list members would know when to be online. As far as using AOL goes, it's easy to create a chat room. Click on the People Connection icon, then click Find A Chat, then Start Your Own Chat, and follow the instructions. I don't know if there's any way for list members who are not using AOL to join such a discussion, though; so maybe ICQ is a better option. Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:11:07 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Why not a Joni chatroom ? In a message dated 1/23/99 7:33:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << thought occurred to me and probably been said before but I haven't seen it posted myself ...BUT...why isn't there a Joni Mitchell chatroom ? Is this technology generally available or is it possible to create one on say AOL and then have members aware of the website they can go to >> There is a Joni Mitchell bulletin board on AOL. Many of us have in the past used ICQ for Joni chats. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:18:48 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: See You Sometime In a message dated 1/23/99 5:57:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ginamu@aol.com writes: << It's been some time since I've listened to For The Roses. As always, I wonder about the line "pack your suspenders, I'll come meet your plane" from the song See You Sometime. Is this line about James Taylor? I always think of his picture on the cover of Mud Slide Slim. >> It's always been assumption and I think it's a safe one. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:36:30 -0500 From: "John Wasak" Subject: Re: Amelia Question In discussing the song "Amelia", Bob wrote: >Amelia begins with references to aircraft, geometry, and her beginnings as a >songwriter: (6 jet planes, hexagram, her guitar), and ends with the same imagery >(a 747, geometric farms (Joni's original dream for her life), and the Cactus >Tree Motel. The images serve as bookends for the emotions in between. >>>> Here's my take on the beginning of the lyric: "I was driving across the burning desert When I spotted six jet planes Leaving six white vapor trails across the bleak terrain It was the hexagram of the heavens It was the strings of my guitar Amelia, it was just a false alarm." The key here is "the hexagram of the heavens" which I'm certain refers to the I Ching or the Book of Changes. It's a chinese oracle of divination in which the users throw yarrow sticks (traditional) or pennies to come up with a pattern of six solid and or broken lines. These patterns correspond to a chinese character which is then looked up and read to somehow determine the correct course of action or inaction to take regarding any decision that needs to be made. The book had a certain popularity in the '70's, when Hejira was made, and I have no doubt Joni was aware of it. The 6 vapor trails of the planes and the 6 strings of a guitar would visually correlate to the 6 lines of the hexagram. As far as I understand, a hexagram is not a geometrical figure. A six sided geometrical figure would be a hexagon. So I don't think she's talking about geometry here. Oddly enough, as I was typing this, another bit of a lyric about hexagrams came to mind. In The Band's song "Caledonia Mission" on "Music From Big Pink" there's the line ; "You know I do believe in your hexagram but can you tell me how they all knew the plan?" Just some ideas, anyway, it's always fun to try to get into the mind of someone like Joni Mitchell. John ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:42:04 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Synchronous cartoon (NJC) Michael-how did you know? Does boring old fart syndrome emanate even thru the pc and across the ocean? colin np: ABBA-they sure don't make tunes like they used to. Michael Yarbrough wrote: > In the fun spirit of recent discussions on the list, thought y'all > might like to check out this cartoon I ran across: > > http://www.icemagazine.com/html/cartoon.html - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:46:06 +0000 From: catman Subject: NJC:back to Bjork I just saw dawn french of french and saunders do a brilliant and accurate take off of Bjork doing her fist hit she had here. Nevr could figure out the title but it was the one where she wore her hair in strange little braids all over head. All you Bjork fans should direct your defense of Bjork to Dawn French c/o the BBC, London, England. perjhaps Dawn can be persuaded to open her mind a little...... - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:12:54 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: the man hater's club and more credits trivia > Some more credits trivia: > Susan Webb (sister of singer-songwriter Jimmy Webb) is credited with > background vocals on "Down to You". Susan idolized and emulated Joni back > in the early 70s on her own couple of albums and covered some of Joni's > songs on them, including "Case of You." > > Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman are the background singers credited on "The > Tea Leaf Prophecy." > > Kakki I knew that there was "Sue" on Mingus, and someone else on DJRD in "The Tenth World" but, they were never big names. I just thought they were friends. I always ASSumed that Joni did her own background vocals (other than the guys) since she had such a unique voice. I would have investigated more before I wrote but I'm going on my fourth week of statistics and the brain cells are popping like carbonated bubbles in a soda glass-those I still have are blistered! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:50:38 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Grace Slick and Joni Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 06:33:26 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenneth Grant) I know that lots of you want this tread to die, but I just have to say my $0.02, so please bear with me -- or de.lete me :-) Kakki wrote: plus she [Joni] and Grace have always been good friends and spoken admiringly of each other on many occasions Hey Kakki, I'm not aware of their closeness/friendship over the years, but if you say it's so, I'd have no reason to doubt it. But I think it might have ended in the 70s. I noticed some minor interaction bewteen Grace and Joni on the Dick Cavett Show of 8/18/69, which I watched again just last week. He introduced Joni as a "true musical artist," and Grace, sitting next to Dick after having just performed "We Can Be Together" -- unedited, "motherfucker and all -- had a belittled look on her face, as if this was simultaneously an insult to her and her artistry (at least this was *my* interpretation, I saw a slight cringe on her face at that moment.) But it didn't stop her from joining the crowd in giving Joni a standing ovation after one of her songs (For Free I believe.) Also, I could swear that a few months ago someone posted an excerpt of Grace's new autobiography with a Joni reference, and as I recall, it went something like this: "I saw Joni in a restaurant in LA a few years ago, and I was gonna walk up to her and say hi, but I felt intimidated. You know, anyone who's musician enough to work with Charles Mingus..." I only remember this because I was so surprised by it. I always loved the raw power of Gracie's voice, and feel she contributed so much to the Airplane/Starship. I know she's had her share of problems with drugs and alcohol -- which I believe caused her departure from the band and the demise of her career. But I was very saddened to read that passage from her bio. While I agree that she's not as muti-talented as Joni, she's certainly an icon and has solid achievements of her own that I -- and indeed many -- respect. I thought it was weird that she felt too "intimidated" by Joni to approach her. I guess her "sordid past" has a serious affect on her self-confidence. Too bad that she can't stay focused on all the good things she's done :-( -Kenny ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #41 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?