From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #38 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, January 22 1999 Volume 04 : Number 038 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Amelia Question ["Don Rowe" ] Video Tape & Alanis M. [LucasBC@webtv.net (Luke Bierlein)] Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) [Dreamzvill@aol.com] Re: Grace/Jeffersons [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Song To A Seagull [RickieLee1@aol.com] Tonight's Tribute to Joni Mitchell (NYC contingent) [DKasc13293@aol.com] joni moments [Lisa Kowalski ] Re: Grace/Jeffersons [catman ] P.S. to DiFranco article on Joni [JRMCo1@aol.com] Amelia Question [Lisa Peakes ] Re: Grace/Jeffersons (NJC) [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Elliott Smith (NJC) [Marilune@aol.com] S&L Video Re-release again [Manno Toshikazu ] fred simon (NJC) ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Video Tape & Alanis M. ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Airplane/Starship [IVPAUL42@aol.com] advice on Michael Hedges (SJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: Grace/Jeffersons ["Kakki" ] Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) [Mark-n-Travis ] Re: advice on Michael Hedges (SJC) ["Steve Garrison" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:30:44 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Amelia Question Hello Lisa, and welcome to the jmdl! Okay, since I always love a good Joni lyric challenge, here's my dos pesos ... First of all, I don't think of "Amelia" as a literal conversation between Joni and the famous aviatrix. I think of Amelia as the Yin to Joni as Yang. The strong side and the weak, combined into a complete person. So 'This is how I hide the hurt ... I tell Amelia' reads to me, "I just tell myself". Amelia represents the stronger side of Joni's ego, the one that isn't easily hurt, that is braver and more daring, less vulnerable. So 'the false alarms' are false alarms of love, happiness, security ... all the things that "a ghost of aviation" wouldn't necessarily be interested in. But as we all know, our lady of duality is a multi-faceted person. And since 'Hejira' hangs together so beautifully, you'll find this same theme echoed much more clearly in "Refuge of the Road". Have a look and I think you'll see the parallel themes at work. Hope this helps, and again ... welcome to the fray! PS -- You have one of the very coolest e-mail addresses of all time! Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:32:50 -0800 (PST) From: LucasBC@webtv.net (Luke Bierlein) Subject: Video Tape & Alanis M. Hi. I was hoping someone out there would be willing to supply me with the two videos from the video trees that have been done. I can send blank videos and/or blank audio tapes and/or live audio tapes of Natalie Merchant, Tori Amos, 10,000 Maniacs, Sarah McLachlan. I'd really appreciate the help. Just e-mail me and we can work something out. Thanks! One quick question, I remember that a few years ago shortly after Alanis Morissette hit the scene she was always talking about how Joni Mitchell was one of her idols. I also remember that there was some instance where Joni may have said something that made Alanis cry. Can someone explain what was said and what really happened? I never did get to hear the whole story, and I'm kind of a casual Alanis fan. Thanks again. Luke LucasBC@webtv.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:37:46 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) In a message dated 1/21/99 8:25:46 PM !!!First Boot!!!, kakkib@att.net writes: << I've met China and she looks like a blond-haired version of Grace. >> Of *course* you met her!!!! You're Kakki! - You meet *ALL* the cool people!!!! =) Love (and envy), Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:57:21 -0500 (EST) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: Grace/Jeffersons There is a lot of misinformation flying around this list that I'll take a stab at clearing up. First. The current "Grace" singer in the Jefferson Starship is Diana Mangano. That is who the first inquiry was about. Darby Gould predates Diana in the early '90s. Diana has been with them some years now and she is a wonderful person and singer. Second. The Jefferson Starship is not to be (but often is) confused with "Starship". The "JS" features Paul Kantner, Jack Casady, Marty Balin, Diana Mangano, and various keyboardists and drummers. "Starship" is the rip-off band fronted by "Icky Micky" Thomas who was forced to drop the "Jefferson" title in a lawsuit when Paul Kantner left the Jefferson Starship that included Grace & Mickey in the mid 80's. Third. China is the daughter of Paul & Grace. She was never in any incarnation of JS. Fourth. Grace left Paul for a crew member, not Marty. She has stated many times that she had various flings with every member of the Jefferson Airplane EXCEPT FOR Marty Balin. I think that covers everything! gdave NP: Crosby, Pevar, Raymond & Lesh: Maritime Hall, SF. 1/21/97 PS: The Dead have covered a great many songs but I've never heard them do "Wipeout", although it would not surprise me if they did in their early period of '65- '66. :) - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:07:13 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: Song To A Seagull In a message dated 1/21/99 11:16:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, simon@icu.com writes: << seems to me this last paragraph settles the issue *by itself*. here we have Warner-Reprise Records CLEARLY identifying Reprise #6293 _as_ SONG TO A SEAGULL _in_ 1970! i rest my case, thank-you. >> and i say we all move to dismiss. all in favor? (simon, you are absolutely the best!) peace, ric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:03:06 EST From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Tonight's Tribute to Joni Mitchell (NYC contingent) Downtown on the Lower East Side is a cafe called "The Living Room" Here's the line-up, players are solo and with full back-up bands: Yours truly - intro People's Parties - Dorothy Scott That Song About the Midway - Larry John McNally Help Me - Betty Woman of Heart and Mind - Frank Tedesso Amelia - Tara Angel Carey - Joy Askew Captivating Me River & Blue - Barbra Brousel Free Man in Paris - Betty Come in From the Cold - Richard Julian Slouching Towards Bethlehem - Timothy Hill Silky Veils of Ardor - Dayna Kurtz 2 Martinis to the wind me Edith and the Kingpin - Kelly Flint Cactus Tree - Marina Little Green - Rebecca Martin Rainy Night House - Julia Douglas Black Crow - Marlin Cherry The Fiddle and the Drum - Laura Ponce Hope against hope Duane A Case of You - Jennifer Jackson Down to You - Dorothy Scott Woodstock - Joy Askew These performers are far from chopped liver amateur acts, some have direct connection to figurehead herself. Please say hello. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:42:11 From: Lisa Kowalski Subject: joni moments In response to Ange's comment "Enough of my boring I cant believe HOW GREAT she is...I really wish she would get more credit for herwork" Your comments are not boring Ange> I find them to be very insightful and intelligent and Joni is GREAT! Regardless of what themusic industry may think it seems to me that everyone on the JMDL and at Wallys Website give her the credit for her work that she so richly deserves.To me and possibly Joni thats all that matters.Besides like you said "she wouldnt want to be recognized by an industry with crappy nontalent" Jonis in a class by herself and she never ceases to amaze me! I agree ! Her artwork is extraordinary! When I was first looking at the paintings onTTT I thought the picture of the guy(is that Don Freed,by the way?) sitting at the table reading the paper was a photograph! The detail and use of shadow and light is amazing! Lisa PS I hope you all dont have any trouble reading this. My email is screwing up for some reason and its just not printing things out right. I sent a message about"Amelia" before this one and it really messed up the verse I typed. I'll try to get it fixed! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:35:58 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Grace/Jeffersons You left something out that I have always wondered about: why the change from Jefferson Airplane to Jefferson Starship? (or was it visa versa?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:15:46 EST From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: P.S. to DiFranco article on Joni This is from the 1/17/99 L.A. Times. Think they waited long enough to respond? - -Julius <> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:54:22 -0500 From: Lisa Peakes Subject: Amelia Question On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:21:19 Lisa Kowalski asked "What does Joni feeling hurt by this guy wanting her to stay away have to do with Amelia Earhardt and what does it have to do with a false alarm?" Maybe it's that sometimes love can give us the feeling that it's safe to take off and fly - that's how high it can lift us - we think it can empower us to brave the uncharted. Maybe the real deal can, but there are loves, too, that can't - perhaps the message in the presence of such fleeting surges is that one has to develop the strength to fly solo until a solid love happens along. Earhardt fits the album's theme of flight - why not a dialogue with another maverick woman - and what drove her to the pilot's profession? Was it an urge to flee pain, too? * lpeakes@vpr.net * * Lisa Peakes * * Morning Host/Producer * * Vermont Public Radio * * 20 Troy Avenue * * Colchester, VT 05446 * * ph: 802-654-4351 * * fax: 802-655-9117 * ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:01:58 -0500 (EST) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: Grace/Jeffersons (NJC) Colin asked: >You left something out that I have always >wondered about: why the change from >Jefferson Airplane to Jefferson Starship? That change was made when Jorma Kaukonen & Jack Casady left the Airplane to to devote their attentions full time to their splinter group Hot Tuna. Jack now doubles as bassist for both Tuna & JS. When he is unavailable for a JS gig, he is replaced with either Bill Laymon of the David Nelson Band or Bobby Vega of Zero. This all makes going to see the JS quite complicated. First you must determine if the advertised concert is Jefferson Starship or Starship. Newspaper ads, promoters and venues often make the same mistakes so you must check diligently. Next, once you've determined that it is indeed JS you must find out whether Jack will be with them or not. Again the above sources are not to be trusted. But the rule of thumb is if HT are not scheduled someplace on that date then Jack will be with the JS. Third, you must determine if Marty will be there. They tour under the JS name both with and without Marty. I prefer without. They sometimes call themselves JS Acoustic Explorer or Jefferson Shuttlecraft when appearing sans Marty. All this contributes to the reasons this band has declined in attention, even while improving in artistic develpment. The JS has a new record hitting the shelves any day now entitled "Windows Of Heaven". Wait for the US release and avoid the German import which is substandard and illegal. Good luck. gdave NP: The evening news - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:09:41 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Elliott Smith (NJC) i just wanted to let all of you elliott luvers out there that he is TOURING again and making a stop in L.A. at the El Rey Theatre, March 3 and 4. I just scored a ticket for the 3rd (my parents are lame and won't let me go two nights). he's also working on a new album, which is awesome. he is so awesome. - -mariana floating back up to elliott nirvana ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:46:36 +0900 (JST) From: Manno Toshikazu Subject: S&L Video Re-release again Hi, all the Joni's funs By 'Video arts music' URL, 'Shadows & Light' video re-release date is postponed. New re-release date is march 25 and two un-released songs are added as *Complete Edition*. 'Video arts music' URL is http://www.videoartsmusic.com/ but only Japanese. I'm very exciting to see that. Best Regards Manno Toshikazu ---Music, The Final Frontier--- manno@rdd.kenwood.co.jp http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Cabaret/7219/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:17:13 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: fred simon (NJC) Is there a Fred Simon on this list? Is he a musician? Does he have CDs out? Found a Fred Simon CD among boxes of donated stuff waiting to be catalogued at my library, and I was just wondering. Deb Messling ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:38:11 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Video Tape & Alanis M. I believe this goes back to an interview that appeared in Details magazine in 1996. The interviewer caught Joni on a particularly bad day, it seems, or maybe just decided to quote selectively to make Joni look particularly bad (i.e. whiny and arrogant and mean-spirited). Here's the part that, apparently, made Alanis M. cry: But I'm a musical explorer and not just a pop songwriter or an occasional writer of a song or half a song, like these other women. Alanis Morissette writes words, someone else helps set it to music, and then she's kind of stylized into the part. To me, Sheryl Crow is a style invention, and I know some of her inventors. A lot of these women are made, they're not...well, Laura Nyro was not like that. She and I were composers and poets. Of the women who have come up after that, I can't think of anybody who...well, let me put it this way: If you take me to a concert, it'd better be great enough to make me forget that I want a cigarette, and I haven't seen anybody lately who can do that. > One quick question, I remember that a few years ago shortly after > Alanis Morissette hit the scene she was always talking about how > Joni Mitchell was one of her idols. I also remember that there was > some instance where Joni may have said something that made Alanis > cry. Can someone explain what was said and what really happened? > Deb Messling ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:54:39 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Airplane/Starship In a message dated 1/21/99 6:40:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << You left something out that I have always wondered about: why the change from Jefferson Airplane to Jefferson Starship? >> The first Jefferson Starship album was "Blows Against the Empire," a science- fiction concept album in which Kantner and all his hippie pals hijack the starship that the U.S. had been building in orbit around Earth and they take it for a joyride. Well, I'm oversimplifying. Actually, in Kantner's story, they sort of turn it into a human Noah's Ark, with leaders of all the scientific fields aboard to escape the dying Earth and go populate a new planet. So, at that point an "Airplane" must have seemed outdated and it must have seemed natural to rename the band Jefferson Starship. Soon after Jack and Jorma left to devote full-time to Hot Tuna and Craig Chaquico joined to play lead guitar and the former Quicksilver bass player, David Freiberg (?) joined as well. By that time, there were albums coming out from the Jefferson Starship, Kantner and Slick, Slick alone, Hot Tuna (Papa John Creach would play with both Hot Tuna and the Starship), the KBC Band (Kantner, Balin and Casady) and I've lost count of how many others. "Baron Von Tollbooth and the Chrone Nun"??? Anyway, when Mickey Thomas came along, I lost interest. I think he destroyed Starship. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:39:33 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: advice on Michael Hedges (SJC) From: CarltonCT@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:58:37 EST Hello - I've read more than a few posts about Michael Hedges on this list, and I'm wondering if some of his fans would be kind enough to tell me which of his records I should start off with. David Crosby was always my favorite of CSN&Y, so I'm interested in those artists he has worked with, influenced, produced. One of my favorite albums from so long ago was Crosby's "If I Could Only Remember My Name", incidentally, a kind of prophetic title for Crosby given his later drug history. I had always wondered if "Guenivere" was about Joni, especially since it has seagull imagery. Acccording to the Hinton book, it is partially about her - she is the woman referred to in the lines "Guenivere hath golden hair - like yours, lady, like yours." The use of "hath" seems a little silly these days. NP: Radiohead, OK Computer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:30:57 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Grace/Jeffersons gr8fuldave wrote: There is a lot of misinformation flying around this list that I'll take a stab at clearing up. First. The current "Grace" singer in the Jefferson Starship is Diana Mangano. That is who the first inquiry was about. Darby Gould predates Diana in the early '90s. Diana has been with them some years now and she is a wonderful person and singer. Darby left JS in early 1993 and then Signe Anderson (the first female singer before Grace) filled in until they found Diana. But later, in 1994, Darby re-joined and began substituting in at some of the performances. I thought Darby still did that occasionally based on some information and recent photos I've seen, but I may be hallucinating. I have not heard Diana perform but have heard Darby and she is also quite impressive. (Wish I could have seen Signe perform - heard that she also sat in with Hot Tuna occasionally in the early '90s). Fourth. Grace left Paul for a crew member, not Marty. She has stated many times that she had various flings with every member of the Jefferson Airplane EXCEPT FOR Marty Balin. Now I'm really baffled because I've read and heard this for years, including an in-depth account from a Deadhead friend who also listed songs Marty supposedly wrote about Grace! Was it rather, that Marty had an unrequited crush on Grace only? Now, I'm curious - how did this modern myth/misinformation get started? Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:50:32 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) Kakki wrote: > > On the origins of China Kantner: > > I've met China and she looks like a blond-haired version of Grace. Maybe > the confusion with Marty is because Grace became involved with him while > still married to Paul Thanks to Dave for clearing this up. Marty & Grace were more of a battleground than a love affair from everything I've read & heard. Grace was never officially married to Paul Kantner. She *did* become involved with the J. Starship's lighting director, a guy by the name of Skip Johnson and she *did* marry him. Grace said in a recent > interview that China (who had her own short-lived TV sit-com a few years > back) China Wing Kantner appeared on a few episodes of 'Home Improvement' as the neighbor Wilson's niece whose parents were 60's activists & hippies. Of course some of her character's jokes about her parents were meant to refer to Grace & Paul. Has anyone read Grace's new autobiography? It sounds really > great and has received good reviews. > I have and it is very entertaining. Grace has a wonderfully unique perspective on life & the world we live in. She's intelligent, has a wickedly sarcastic sense of humor and tells a great story. There are some nice descriptions of the scene at the Fillmore, the Monterey Pop Festival and Woodstock. Her take on Janis Joplin is also very sympathetic and very interesting. She said that, although Janis was younger than Grace, she felt that Janis was looking at her as somebody still wet behind the ears. As if Janis knew what knocks Grace was going to have to take but also knew there was no way she could warn her about them or save her from them. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:17:58 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Airplane/Starship- - The Chrome Nun (NJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > "Baron Von Tollbooth and the Chrone Nun"??? Ballad of the Chrome Nun Look in the mirror You're looking guilty Did the devil just give you the nod? You may be thinking You're funny looking We'll you're right You're plenty odd But think about it Think about it If you were funny enough you could play great god And I would fall down on my knees to you Fall down flat on my face I don't have to ask you Where you're going I just sit here laughing & I watch the race Nobody needs to baptize me Anytime I laugh I got religion And I fall down on my knees to you Fall down flat on my face > Anyway, when Mickey Thomas came along, I lost interest. I think he > destroyed Starship. I have to agree with you there. And in Grace's book she pretty much says he eventually edged her out. But she was ready to quit anyway. Her perspective on how the business changed during the time she was in it is pretty apt, imo. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:09:40 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) O.K. maybe I have my answer on Marty: Mark wrote: >Thanks to Dave for clearing this up. Marty & Grace were more of a >battleground than a love affair from everything I've read & heard. Dave had written: >Fourth. Grace left Paul for a crew member, not Marty. She has stated >many times that she had various flings with every member of the >Jefferson Airplane EXCEPT FOR Marty Balin. Maybe Marty felt perenially rejected and that's why he and Grace battled ;-D Last night she talked about how she is still great friends with Skip Johnson and continued to use him as her lighting director after they divorced. She also said she was stalked by a couple different guys for years who kept insisting they were China's father! One of the guys threated to even try to get custody of China. Mark continued: >China Wing Kantner appeared on a few episodes of 'Home Improvement' as >the neighbor Wilson's niece whose parents were 60's activists & >hippies. Of course some of her character's jokes about her parents were >meant to refer to Grace & Paul. I missed those episodes but loved her in the "Monty" series where she played the hippie girlfriend of a guy whose father was modeled after an ultra-conservative Rush Limbaugh-type talk show host. She played the part like she lived it all her life (which she did!) She struck me as a combination of her mother's drollness and her father's fire and hyperness. I thought she was a great actress and would like to see more of her. She also had a bit part in "Grace of my Heart". Kakki NP: in my head It's No Secret ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:50:08 -0500 From: "Steve Garrison" Subject: Re: advice on Michael Hedges (SJC) I vote for an early album, "Aerial Boundaries." A lot of his melodies, percussive effects, and fire and flash. Steve - ---------- >I've read more than a few posts about Michael Hedges on this list, and I'm >wondering if some of his fans would be kind enough to tell me which of his >records I should start off with. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #38 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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