From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #37 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, January 21 1999 Volume 04 : Number 037 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Yvette in English Questions [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Beatle Ballads (NJC) ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: joni moments ["Eric Taylor" ] Re: Yvette in English Questions ["Kakki" ] NJC (mostly) : Jimi and Neil Young [Howard Wright ] Re: Yvette in English (now NJC) [Howard Wright ] Re: shoot the moon (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Lindsay: B'Bye, for now!(NJC) [Dreamzvill@aol.com] Re: Yvette in English Questions [Phyliss Ward ] Re: Yvette in English Questions ["John M. Lind" ] Re[2]: Yvette in English Questions [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re[2]: Beatle Ballads (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) [Dreamzvill@aol.com] Re: joni moments ["Don Rowe" ] Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] re: Yvette In English Questions [simon@icu.com] re: Yvette In English Questions, Pt-2 [simon@icu.com] Re: shoot the moon (was Beatle Ballads) (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.co] re: Yvette In English Questions, Pt-2 ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ] Re: Australian videos [Bounced Message ] Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni mentions and remakes [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) [jan gyn ] Wiped Out (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Amelia Question [Lisa Kowalski ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:18:30 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Yvette in English Questions On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:59:17 EST Michele wrote: * This was a poem written by (I think) Crosby. He faxed it to * Joni and voila, the song. It's about some American dude * that gets smitten with a little French vixen who could care * less about him. I had thought, from the lyrics themselves, that this was about some beautiful woman Picasso met. I had imagined that Joni had taken the story from his (auto)biography or something. Can anybody clarify this? Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:52:04 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: Beatle Ballads (NJC) Michael Paz responded to Colin's comment: <<"except for Yesterday which i love." HEY COLIN- What about these other fine Beatle Ballads (sung by Paul)? For No One Eleanor Rigby The Long And Winding Road Golden Slumbers And I Love Her I Will Till There Was You (They didn't write this but Paul sag the hell out of it)>> I can't believe you didn't include Norwegian Wood or A Day In The Life! What kind of Beetles fans are you anyway? ;~* E.T. NP: Ray Of Light (Madonna's best, but BORING compared to TTT) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:26:37 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Re: joni moments Angela Takats wrote: <> Me too, Angela! Earlier tonight I broke into tears (again) absorbing the overwhelming beauty of Stay In Touch. But it didn't make me sad. Instead I was overcome by Joni's pure vocal and instrumental genius. To this fervent fan since Blue, Joni has never sounded better. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 01:25:33 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Yvette in English Questions Hi Marian, I remember reading about the origins of the song on Wally's site, both in his interview of Crosby, and the following great article contributed by Bill Dollinger which includes Crosby's original lyrics. (Crosby has also recorded a beautiful version of the song - don't recall which album - only have a tape of it). Kakki >By Bill Dollinger TURBULENT INDIGO contains the song "Yvette in English," a collaboration between Joni and David Crosby. A fascinating insight into the creative process is provided in "Songs in the Rough," by singer/songwriter Steven Bishop. The book is a collection of handwritten lyrics and brief interviews with several songwriters regarding the origins of selected songs. "Yvette in English" is featured, and here's what Joni had to say about writing this song: (Joni is asked if the title to the song came to her first) "Yvette in English" came from some scribblings of [David] Crosby's on a piece of paper. A man meets a French girl, you know, in a Parisian cafe, and nothing much happens. She offers him some bliss. The woman is unnamed." (Joni is asked why she decided to write with Crosby) "The only reason I did it with Crosby was because he was making his record and he wanted me to produce him. I didn't want to produce him. He wanted me to co-write with him, but I didn't have any ideas. Did I have any songs I hadn't recorded? No, I didn't. So then he said, "If I fax you this, will you look at it?" So I looked at it, and there were some good lines in it, but it needed structure, rhymes, you know. There was just a premise and a little bit of language. The amazing thing was, with the little bit of stimulation he gave, that thing was done in a couple of days. The music comes easy. It's the words that are hard. So I took what he had and I paraphrased it a lot. He had, "The moon spilt like wine," and I wrote "Burgundy nocturne tips and spills and they trot along nicely in the spreading stain." He had, "She offers him a little bit of instant bliss,' which became a piece of the chorus, and then I gave her a name -Yvette." Joni also discusses her desire as a young girl to compose music on the piano, and how she would get rapped on the knuckles by the teacher for wanting to play by ear. The teacher would say "Oh, why would you want to compose music when you can have the masters under your fingertips." Joni credits such negative attitudes to killing her love of the piano. She says of her writing process "I do a lot of writing and a lot of rewriting. A lot of times I have many, many ideas and I have to condense it. Sometimes I write six or eight verses and condense it down to three, depending on the topic. Bishop also interviewed David Crosby for the story, who had this to say: "What I did was I faxed her a set of lyrics that I wrote in Japan, and then she just ran with it. She was pretty excited. She called me up two and three times an hour to say "How about this" and "How about that," and I would say "That's fucking wonderful." He later adds a bit of songwriting advice -"What Joni told me was, if you have two words in a row that you like, write them down." Here is a look at the evolution of the lyrics, as shown in the book: Rough-draft lyrics faxed from David Crosby to Joni: "We are speaking in tongues, you and I sometimes I can catch how the world looks through your eyes and I think Picasso drew you I wonder what wind blew you and your leaf-like life my way today the cigarette burns your finger and you return to earth flustered and not sure of your worth you slide sideways as slick as a cat It stays in my mind you moving electric like that The night has oozed into electric cafes and shadows are stealing all the people away. It's like an exhibition were the pictures are all sold The walls are getting lovely and I am getting cold." Joni's first rewrite (although still a bit different from the final version) is as follows : "We're speaking in different tongues -you and I Sometimes I catch how it is in your eyes There's no insulation. We're wires layed bare As we fluster along Feeling touched and scared You say in English "Here try some of this Its a little bit of instant bliss." It's a cold fatigue -the old uphill As the burgandy nocturn tips and spills As we slip along in the spreading stain How did I wind up here again You say in English "Here try some of this It's a little bit of instant bliss." Your cigarette burns your fingertips It falls like fireworks And you step on it What blew your leaf" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:24:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: NJC (mostly) : Jimi and Neil Young In a message dated 1/20/99 4:25:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, ewwtaylor@Prodigy.net writes: << You know, Bob, this thought has crossed my mind many times. While the Doors is the only 60's band I still listen to on a regular basis, I shudder at the thought of a burned-out, bald, probably overweight Jim Morrison singing Light My Fire! Janis I picture as a bag lady at Shop & Save. But Jimi would probably still blow them all away. It will take centuries for any rock guitarist to surpass Voodoo Child. >> Paul I wrote: >I disagree. By now, Jimi surely would literally be a "slow hand." I don't think so. Jimi was an innovator - if he had lived on, I imagine him taking new steps in unsual and interesting musical directions. He would still be producing interesting music, I'm sure of that. Maybe a bit like Neil Young (and Joni I guess) - prepared to take musical risks and never just record to please the company or fans, but to follow what he/she believes in. And as a result, they drift in and out of "fashion" and every 7 or 8 years they become the "new great thing", as Neil Young did a few years back. Suddenly it's cool to like Neil Young again! Howard P.S I reckon Mr Young is one of very few guitarists to get close to the spirit of Hendrix when he solos. True - his technique is nowhere near, but the spirit, passion and creativity is *that* close. His solo on the live (Weld) version of Cortez the killer is just awesome. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:31:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: Re: Yvette in English (now NJC) Jody wrote: <<>> Michael wrote: >My favorite corollary to this is "Je t'allume?" (sp?) which can >mean both "Shall I light your cigarette?" and "Do I turn you on?" That's a great one! "Hey baby, can I light your fire?" ;-) Another common language faux pas: If you're feeling cold or hot, be careful what you say in French or German. "Ju suis froid/chaud", or "Ich bin kalt/heiss" have similar "turned on/off" implications, which might cause a few strange looks ...! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 05:42:27 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: shoot the moon (NJC) In a message dated 1/21/99 12:59:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, trxschwa@bway.net writes: << and he just let out a belch. looked to see if anyone was around, and he was sitting near Diane keaton. she just looked back at him and let out a louder belch, then they both lost it. they became lunch buddies. >> I KNEW there was a reason why I always loved Annie Hall (Diane Keaton). ;>) Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:45:31 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Lindsay: B'Bye, for now!(NJC) Lindsay- Sorry to see you go...good luck in all you do! Drop in and see us again sometime...:) All the love, Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:58:30 -0800 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Yvette in English Questions Kakki wrote: > A fascinating insight into the creative process is provided in "Songs in the > Rough," by singer/songwriter Steven Bishop. The book is a collection of > handwritten lyrics and brief interviews with several songwriters regarding the > origins of selected songs. "Yvette in > English" is featured Yes! I have this book! It's really fun to see the original handwriting and the writing process evolve! - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:25:46 -0500 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Re: Yvette in English Questions Bob M. wrote: >First off, what does "Avez-vous un allumette" mean? According to my wife it means "Do you have a match?" >Does the guy in the song actually "meet" Yvette (the first line is "He >met her in a French Cafe, but in the next stanza it states that he's >"reaching for words and drawing blanks...stricken deaf and dumb). It >then goes on to say "They trot along nicely in the spreading >stain...how did he wind up here again?" Is he *imagining* some >relationship with this woman, hearing her say in English "Please have >this little bit of instant bliss", or does some interchange actually >take place? Is she a prostitute ? I'm pretty sure she's supposed to be a prostitute that the character actually meets and um, "does buisness" with. Or perhaps she is trying really hard to make a sale, if you will. That part I'm not sure about off hand. John~ NP "He loved Him Madly" Miles Davis/Bill Laswell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:19:32 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Yvette in English Questions Michelle responded: <> And another lister shared the info that Joni took Crosby's original poem and enhanced it with her Joni-magic. <> Just like "Sunny Sunday" is a character "snapshot" - she seems to alternate on TI between smaller character studies and "larger" songs dealing with universal themes, although maybe that statement could be made of all her records... Also interesting that you mention her use of bridges here and on Facelift - off the top of my head I remember her mentioning bridges in "Song For Sharon" and "Cherokee Louise" (and you know there may be more). I think sometimes she just brings them up because she has said that as a girl she spent lots of time playing on bridges so they're significant for her, but as a writer I'm sure she uses bridges metaphorically as well. After all, what is a bridge? In the architectural sense, it's a way to connect with an area that would otherwise be unreachable. In a musical sense, it's a passage which connects chorus & verse (maybe someone more musically inclined can help). At any length, it's another example of her duality and writing genius... Bob NP (In my Head): James Brown: Can someone take us to the bridge? Led Zep: Has anyone seen the bridge, I'm just trying to find the bridge...where's that confounded bridge!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:51:00 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Beatle Ballads (NJC) Terry wrote about "Something": Yes- written by George, the most underrated of all the Beatles. Terry Terry, I don't think George was "underrated" as much as he was "overshadowed", although I know he was constantly frustrated that his compositions were never included at the same pace as John & Paul... Bob NP: World Party, "When The Rainbow Comes" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:51:27 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) In a message dated 1/21/99 2:04:26 AM !!!First Boot!!!, mark-n- travis@worldnet.att.net writes: << Mark in Seattle ever eager to plug Grace >> Mark- Cool lyrics. We saw Jefferson Airplane at the Pozo (whaddaya mean, you don't know where Pozo is?! :) Springtime Boogie last May, and they were incredible! They were originally billed as "Starship", but they changed it (why? they did Starship tunes). Anyway, Marty was incredible, but in Grace's place they had a young lady sing who sounded *AMAZINGLY* like her!!! Do you know who this may have been??? She was about 25 years old, slender, with long brown hair, and a commanding stage presence. Cheers, Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:24:46 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: joni moments Hi Angela -- Yep! That voice has and continues to deliver some of the most incredible moments ever recorded. A few that you've jogged my memory about: "How Do You Stop", where she takes this incredibly dramatic pause ... "And then it's ..." and breathtakingly gasps "gone." Mist in the eyes every time I hear it. "The Chinese Cafe" brings us the soaring soprano emphasis on "SLEEEEEK concrete" and the fantastic diving to "tearing the old landmarks down-ah!". Just indescribably delicious! "The Silky Veils of Ardor" -- well who can pick a single moment from this one, the whole thing is so angelic. I better quit while I'm ahead, or this may set some record for bandwidth! Again, thanks for jogging the memories ... Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:30:17 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) Dreamzvill@aol.com wrote: > > (why? they did Starship tunes). Anyway, Marty was incredible, but in Grace's > place they had a young lady sing who sounded *AMAZINGLY* like her!!! Do you > know who this may have been??? She was about 25 years old, slender, with long > brown hair, and a commanding stage presence. I believe that is Grace and Marty's daughter. She does look and sound a lot like her mother. Jerry np: Nanci Griffith - Other Voices, Too ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:31:11 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) It has been ages since I asked this so I thought I'd give it another try and maybe get lucky: Does anyone have DREAMS by Grace Slick on CD that they don't want, can loan me so I can copy onto cd, or know of a second hand one going or anything like that? It isn't available anymore. thanks colin Dreamzvill@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/21/99 2:04:26 AM !!!First Boot!!!, mark-n- > travis@worldnet.att.net writes: > > << Mark in Seattle ever eager to plug Grace >> > > Mark- > > Cool lyrics. We saw Jefferson Airplane at the Pozo (whaddaya mean, you > don't know where Pozo is?! :) Springtime Boogie last May, and they were > incredible! They were originally billed as "Starship", but they changed it > (why? they did Starship tunes). Anyway, Marty was incredible, but in Grace's > place they had a young lady sing who sounded *AMAZINGLY* like her!!! Do you > know who this may have been??? She was about 25 years old, slender, with long > brown hair, and a commanding stage presence. > > Cheers, Susan C. - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:23:39 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) Susan C. wrote: > Cool lyrics. We saw Jefferson Airplane at the Pozo >(why? they did Starship tunes). Anyway, Marty was incredible, but in Grace's >place they had a young lady sing who sounded *AMAZINGLY* like her!!! Do you >know who this may have been??? She was about 25 years old, slender, with long >brown hair, and a commanding stage presence. I believe that would be Darby Gould who has been with the Airplane/Starship on and off for a few years now. She IS amazing! Did anyone (Mark) see Grace on Tom Snyder last night? She was great. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:01:11 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: re: Yvette In English Questions Bob Muller wrote ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >I've just been perusing the lyrics to "Yvette" and am wondering >what you all think this song is about ... > >Does the guy in the song actually "meet" Yvette (the first line is "He >met her in a French Cafe, but in the next stanza it states that he's >"reaching for words and drawing blanks ... stricken deaf and dumb). It >then goes on to say "They trot along nicely in the spreading stain ... >how did he wind up here again?" Is he *imagining* some relationship with >this woman, hearing her say in English "Please have this little bit of >instant bliss", or does some interchange actually take place? Is she a >>prostitute? > >I'd appreciate hearing whatever you guys think... >__________________________________________________________________________ Bob, i'm not sure this really answers your questions but, From: "SONGS IN THE ROUGH: Rock's Greatest Songs In Rough-Draft Form" by Stephen Bishop (c) 1996 A collection of handwritten lyrics and brief interviews with several songwriters regarding the origins of selected songs. "Yvette in English" is featured, and here's what Joni had to say about writing this song: SB: "Yvette In English," didn't the title of that come first? JM: No. "Yvette In English" came from some scribblings of [David] Crosby's on a piece of paper. A man meets a french girl, you know, in a Parisian cafe, and nothing much happens. She offers him some bliss. The woman is unnamed. SB: So he's an old friend, but what made you decide to write with him? You don't generally write with other people. JM: The only reason i did it with Crosby was because he was making his record and he wanted me to produce him. He wanted me to co-write with him, but i didn't have any ideas. Did i have any songs i hadn't recorded? No, i didn't. So then he said, "If i fax you this, will you look at it?" So i looked at it, and there were some good lines in it, but it needed structure, rhymes, you know. There was just a premise and a little bit of language. The amazing thing was, with the little bit of stimulation he gave, that thing was done in a couple of days. The music comes easy. It's the words that are hard. So i took what he had and i paraphrased it a lot. He had, "The moon spilt like wine," and i wrote, "Burgandy nocturne tips and spills and they trot along nicely in the spreading stain." He had, "She offers him a little bit of instant bliss," which became a piece of the chorus, and then i gave her a name -- Yvette. Stephen Bishop also interviewed David Crosby for the book, DC: What I did was I faxed her [Joni Mitchell] a set of lyrics that I wrote in Japan, and then she just ran with it. SB: You guys didn't just sit in a room and trade ideas: "How about this? How about that?" DC: No. She was pretty excited. She called me up two and three times an hour to say "How about this" and "How about that," and I would say "That's fucking wonderful." I've always loved co-writing. I've done it with tons of people, man, and i love doing it. Everybody else is very defensive about it because they're looking to make all the money, and i don't fucking care. I love writing the songs. SB: There's also a social side to it, too -- you go over, have dinner, hang out ... Do you have songs that you start and get excited about and then decide to finish it the next day -- and then the next day you're not as excited about it? DC: Well, yeah. I have lots of them, but they're in my book or in my computer. I have lots of unfinished ones in my book, and lots of scraps. What Joni told me was, if you have two words in a row that you like, write them down." Here is a look at the evolution of the lyrics, as shown in the book: Rough-draft lyrics, faxed by David Crosby to Joni. We are speaking in tongues you and I Sometimes I can catch how the world Looks through your eyes And I think Picasso drew you I wonder what wind blew you And your leaf-like life my way today The cigarette burns your finger and You return to earth Flustered and not sure of your worth You slide sideways as slick as a cat It stays in my mind you moving electric like that The night has oozed into electric cafes And shadows are stealing all the people away It's like an exhibition where the pictures are all sold The walls are getting lovely and I am getting cold Joni's first rewrite. (although still a bit different from the final version) We're speaking in different tongues - you and I Sometimes I catch how it is in your eyes There's no insulation. We're wires layed bare As we fluster along Feeling touched and scared You say in English "Here try some of this Its a little bit of instant bliss" It's a cold fatigue - the old uphill As the burgandy nocturn tips and spills As we slip along in the spreading stain How did I wind up here again You say in English "Here try some of this It's a little bit of instant bliss" Your cigarette burns your fingertips It falls like fireworks And you step on it What blew your leaf for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- * Remember, there's a difference between kneeling down and bending over -- FZ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:01:37 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: re: Yvette In English Questions, Pt-2 the following is from an 'A Conversation With David Crosby' conducted by Wally Breese on 3-15-97 In the summer of 1991, David contacted Joni and asked her if she'd consider producing a track on a solo album he was putting together. Joni responded that she had no interest in producing; she wasn't even sure what that term meant. David says that she then countered with "Let's write one together." So they did. Their collaboration on the song "Yvette In English" appeared on David's 1993 album "Thousand Roads." Joni's version was released a year and a half later on her 1994 album "Turbulent Indigo." I asked David about the song: WB: In 1991, you co-wrote "Yvette in English" with Joni. DC: I think that's the only time that's ever happened with her. Has she ever written a song with anyone else? WB: Let me think... There are tracks she co-wrote with drummer, John Guerin. He wrote the background track to "The Hissing of Summer Lawns" song, for example, but Joni set the lyrics and melody on top of what he did, so that's a different kind of thing than what you two did together. She also co-wrote a couple of songs from tracks written by Larry Klein, such as "Fiction" off of the album "Dog Eat Dog." But co-writing lyrics and melody, no. Did you co-write the melody as well as the lyrics? DC: Just the lyrics. WB: How did the process start? DC: I asked Joni if she would produce or write a song for my album "Thousand Roads" and she said "Oh ... let's write one together." So I sent her a set of lyrics that I thought she would like, and she did, oddly enough, and she pretty much took it from there. I changed the song again when she sang it back to me, in the way that I did it. I guess she changed it some in the way she did it, too. The two versions are quite different. WB: I do love the rhythm of your version. It's just great. DC: Yes, it lends itself to a Brazilian type of treatment, very naturally. WB: Joni's version is much more acoustic. DC: Yes. I'm very grateful to her for doing this with me. It was kind of her. WB: I thought it was wonderful to have you two working together again. It was a full circle kind of thing. For the fans, to hear you two working on something together again was very satisfying. DC: If you mention it, tell her that I'm very grateful to her for doing that. WB: Absolutely. I think it's a wonderful song, too. So it was your idea and she took it and then she'd would call you up and sing parts to you as she was writing it? DC: Yeah. WB: And I guess you got a final tape when she recorded it for you, and then you changed it from there. DC: I changed it only very slightly, just in treating the melody. Only what you would normally do in interpreting a song. I would only take credit for having written some of the words. WB: It's a great song, David, I really love it. Joni and you did a wonderful job. DC: Yeah, I love it too. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- * Remember, there's a difference between kneeling down and bending over -- FZ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:05:44 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: shoot the moon (was Beatle Ballads) (NJC) Patrick said: <> Lowbrow? My favorite kind of story!! Thanks for sharing, Patrick. It amazes me how often an off-handed mention of something like "Shoot The Moon" will trigger the coolest posts... Bob NP: XTC "Living Through Another Cuba" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:20:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: re: Yvette In English Questions, Pt-2 > for now ~ take care, > > ------- > simon > ------- > The Ultimate Archivist! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:55:48 EST From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC - the light bulb list and one more light bulb list comment: we have paul i , to tell everyone the right and only way to put in a bulb, and that in fact everyones light bulbs are in fact in absolutely and in fact, totally wrong....in fact that is. patrick np natalie merchant ophelia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:12:28 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Song To A Seagull recently while catching up on a 2-month backlog of JMDL Digests, i noticed that the subject of Joni's 1st Album Title (RS-6293) has come up again. this is inevitable as our JMDL community continues to grow and expand with the addition of new members. so, once again from the Archives ... ____________________________________ RE: Joni Mitchell's 1st Album, titled! 'SONG TO A SEAGULL' originally posted to the JMDL Digest Aug. 15, 1997 ~ Vol. 2 #244 Subject: SONG TO A SEAGULL Date: Fri. Aug. 15, 1997 previously - this past May - there was a thread dealing with questions and the confusion surrounding the title of Joni Mitchell's first album. on Fri. May 2, 1997 - Deb Messling posted ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >Joni has said the first album is called 'Joni Mitchell'. In his >interview with Wally, David Crosby says she was originally going to >call it 'Song to a Seagull' but changed her mind. >__________________________________________________________________________ NOT really, but i guess that's what Crosby thinks. later that day ... Bradley Fors posted ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >Lastly, It doesn't say 'Song To A Seagull' on the spine of the record. >Thus perhaps the confusion. But lets attempt to put the raging debate >to rest. The LP is called 'Song to a Seagull'. >__________________________________________________________________________ Bradley is correct here, but it didn't end the debate. on Sun. May 4, 1997 ... Deb Messling posted ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >I'll dig up the article where Joni says flatly "It was called Joni >Mitchell." In any case, whatever she was originally going to call it, >it IS called 'Joni Mitchell'. The authoritative source would be the >Library of Congress, and that's what it's called there. > >If you go by the LP cover, it should be called 'Soni to a Seagui' >because at least on my copy, the G and the LL's are cut off. >__________________________________________________________________________ also on May 4, 1997 ... > > Title mystery solved > > >The following is from the incredible 1995 Goldmine article, >"Joni Mitchell A-Gogh-Gogh." > >'Joni Mitchell' was released in March 1968, and the first thing to say >about it is to confirm that the title was 'Joni Mitchell'. The album's >cover, a painting by Mitchell surrounding a tiny photograph of her, >features a grouping of birds that spell out the words 'Song To A >Seagull' the title of one of the songs ... this led many people to call >the album 'Song to a Seagull'. > >Mitchell, when informed of this, expressed surprise. "People can't see >them," she said of the birds, "and the L is cut off, cause even the >graphics department, they didn't see it either. >It's called 'Joni Mitchell'. >__________________________________________________________________________ the Goldmine article is a cover-story, with a fantastic photo of Joni. although it does say Joni Mitchell A-Gogh-Gogh on the cover, the article is actually titled; "Joni Mitchell: From Blue To Indigo". though they may be authoritative in a number of areas, the Library of Congress is NOT the final authority on LP/CD titles. frankly i doubt whether they do anything more than list the title from the spine of an album or compact disc. NO, the authoritative source of an LP/CD title is the musician whose name is on the cover AND/OR the record company issuing the recording in the first place. in the case of Joni Mitchell's first album, the record company screwed up. the correct title SONG TO A SEAGULL never appeared on any vinyl edition. it also wasn't included on the first CD versions issued, although this oversight/mistake has finally been corrected. the remastered version is clearly identified as SONG TO A SEAGULL on both the spine of the jewel box and the face of the CD. [remastered *artwork* only]. __________________________________________________________________________ OK, so that's where the thread ended. let's see if this can be cleared up once-and-for-all, to everyone's satisfaction. first off, Deb does quote the Goldmine article accurately. it appeared in Issue #380 ~ Vol.21, No.4 ~ Feb. 17, 1995. now i've read Goldmine for years. their articles are well written, well researched, and they also correct mistakes. that brings me to the first of six sources of information. ___________________________________________________________________________ 1. GOLDMINE MAGAZINE ~ April 14, 1995 ~ LETTERS TO THE EDITOR. the following letter from William Ruhlmann, author of "Joni Mitchell: From Blue To Indigo", was printed with a boldface header ... BOTH SIDES NOW: MITCHELL and GEFFEN CLARIFY POINTS IN ARTICLE Two of the more careful readers of my article, "Joni Mitchell: From Blue To Indigo" (issue 380), were Joni Mitchell and David Geffen. Both of them have contacted me subsequently, and with their help i am able to clarify a few points made in the article. The article contained a description of the confusion surrounding the title of Mitchell's 1968 debut album. I pointed out that JONI MITCHELL is the "official" title. Mitchell, however, wishes to note that SONG TO A SEAGULL was the title she intended for the album, though somehow that intention got lost when the album was being pressed, and the error has never been corrected. ___________________________________________________________________________ 2. ICE MAGAZINE ~ September 1996 ~ The CD WATCHDOG Column We received a postcard mailed by Ben Testa of Brooklyn, NY, stating simply. "Some of the early Joni Mitchell catalog titles have stickers on them, saying they're repackaged with original artwork. Are they worth buying, and are they remastered as well?" But first things first. To find out about the new artwork, we contacted Robbie Cavolina, a freelance art director who works closely with Mitchell and who recently won a Grammy Award for designing her "Turbulent Indido" CD. Robbie then says ..... "One important note to make, which isn't widely known: her first album is not called JONI MITCHELL, it's called SONG TO A SEAGULL, and it's correctly titled now. It's so nice to see these looking like they're supposed to." __________________________________________________________________________ 3. CALIFORNIA ROCK - CALIFORNIA SOUND, (c) 1978 by Anthony Fawcett ~ Photographs by Henry Diltz In addition to an interesting Joni Chapter "Searching For Clarity", this book also contains a discography listing Joni Mitchell's albums thru 'Don Juan's Reckless Daughter'. it starts off with ... SONG TO A SEAGULL, 1967 (Reprise) ___________________________________________________________________________ 4. CLUB 47 ~ CAMBRIDGE, MA. ~ Jan. 4, 1968 JONI: Introducing the song 'The Pirate Of Penance' says ... "I'm finally going to make -- I uh. I just signed my contract with Reprise, that's Repreese not Reprize, i learned how to say it right too, and uh -- it should be coming out some time this spring. and it should be kind of fun too, because it's -- well it's sort of a story. it's going to be called SONG TO A SEAGULL, which is a story, and all of the songs that make up the record repeat that story. and in the part where we take you down to the seaside -- it's called out of the city and down to the seaside section of the record -- some very strange stories of the sea happen and among them is a song that i wrote about -- well i don't really know what it's about. it's sort of, it's almost like suddenly in the song a character appeared to me that should be a dominate character some day in an operetta -- and so because it was sort of like a lead character in an operetta -- i took liberty with Gilbert & Sullivan and -- stole part of their title. i call this The Pirate Of Penance. i hope you like bad puns too." ___________________________________________________________________________ 5. BILLBOARD MAGAZINE ~ December 9, 1995 "A Portrait Of The Artist" by Timothy White "Few musicians of her stature have undergone more private and public trials. At the beginning, she had to fend off imitators and detractors of both sexes, plus the persistent jealousy of an early '60s folk school whose post-Dylan commercial/artistic strides she almost singlehandedly eclipsed with three hugely influential Reprise albums (Joni Mitchell: SONG TO A SEAGULL, 1968; CLOUDS, 1969; LADIES OF THE CANYON, 1970)" ___________________________________________________________________________ Last but *not* Least 6. THE 1969 WARNER-REPRISE RECORD SHOW Reprise #PRO-336 (2 LP Sampler - released 1970) this was the first in a series of 2-LP samplers sold by mail-order. it contained one song and two short (0:40) song introductions. the liner notes say ... "The Fiddle And The Drum." A song about wars fought by men and nations, sung without accompaniment for the very simple reason that Joni offered to her sold-out Carnegie Hall audience before she begins to. From her CLOUDS LP (Reprise 6341), which was preceded by SONG TO A SEAGULL (Reprise 6293) and followed by LADIES OF THE CANYON (6376). ___________________________________________________________________________ seems to me this last paragraph settles the issue *by itself*. here we have Warner-Reprise Records CLEARLY identifying Reprise #6293 _as_ SONG TO A SEAGULL _in_ 1970! i rest my case, thank-you. - ------- simon - ------- 1998 Update ~ Additions: 7. HITS & MISSES CD 'Inserts' list all Joni's Albums w/cover photos. 1st album (Reprise #6293) listed *as* Song To A Seagull. 8. The JONI MITCHELL SONGBOOK: Complete volume 1 (1966-1970) (c) 1974 Siquomb Publishing Corp. contains all songs from Joni's 1st -3- albums, listed as follows: Song To A Seagull Clouds Ladies Of The Canyon 9. "JONI MITCHELL" by Leonore Fleischer (c) 1976 All references to Joni's 1st album are *as* Song To A Seagull. (pg 12,21,57,65) 10. Magazine Article, ZIGZAG 69 ~ feb. 1977: Joni Mitchell says, "The first album *was called* "Song To A Seagull" and i used that as a continuity. i found that "Song To A Seagull" was a summary of all the songs i'd ever written." 11. ROLLING STONE Magazine, March 4, 1971: "New York gave her the inspiration to write the songs on her first album "Songs To A Seagull", produced by David Crosby. The cover had fine pen-and-ink drawings and Joni's picture was on the back, from a fisheye lens on a New York backstreet." 12. MELODY MAKER, Sept. 28, 1968: JONI, The Seagull From Saskatoon by Karl Dallas "And the first song in the album, 'I Had A King' is about the breakup of my marriage." "The album is one of the few I can think of - the others that spring to mind are "Sgt. Pepper" and the Mothers of Invention LPs - which successfully hangs together as a complete whole." The title, written so subtly by the wings of flying seagulls on the cover that few people notice it; is "Song To A Seagull". The first side is called "I Came To The City" and the second side is called "Out of the City and Down to the Seaside." Both are lines from songs on the second side. 1999 Update ~ Additions: 13. HIT PARADER Magazine, January 1970 The Mitchell Mystique and Minnie Mouse by Brigatta The other thing that mainly bothered me about 'Song To A Seagull', a kind of adolescent sentimentality and slick-magazine banality in some of the ideas -- is almost indescernible now -- In fact I am amazed at the amount of emotional growth evidenced by Joni Mitchell's songs in the relatively short period of one year. Joni still isn't exactly the meat and potatoes of pop, but a surprising amount of the content of "Clouds" stick to your ribs. 14. MANSION ON THE HILL, by Fred Goodman (p) April 1998 Settling into Hollywood's Sunset Studios to record 'Song To A Seagull' while Buffalo Springfield was there working on what would prove to be their final album, Mitchell eagerly introduced Roberts and Crosby to Neil Young. 15. CRAWDADDY MAGAZINE, August 1968 The Way We Are Today/Earth Opera and Joni Mitchell by Paul Williams Joni Mitchell's album (which has a name "Song To A Seagull") is divided into two parts -- I Came To The City & Out Of The City and Down to The Seaside -- and ten parts -- her songs. -------------------------------------------------------------------- this issue also featured a subscription ad with a free record offer. here's the text. Joni Mitchell's * free ... SONG TO A SEAGULL album * this offer is brought to you by Warner Bros. Records (who appreciate the publicity) and CRAWDADDY Magazine (who needs the bread). for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- PS: Deb Messling a friend of mine, no criticism of her or anyone else is intended. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:18:42 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Anyone know where Sherrie Good is? From: "Hejira" Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:27:21 -0000 Hi I'm looking for Sherrie if you can get hold of her please pass on my email address and ask her to get in touch Thanks Kevin HEJIRA28@CLASSIC.MSN.COM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:17:23 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Australian videos Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:54:32 +1100 From: paul.goodwin@sbs.com.au (Paul Goodwin) >From: "Angela Takats" >Subject: re:joni tribute and joni in Australia >I am dying being on this list!! Hearing of joni tributes that i would >just love to go to, of joni concerts here and there (and always in >America) What am i doing in Australia.....so far from all things joni. True enough, Angela! Hi Greg from Hobart, you are so lucky to have gone to that joni concert in Melbourne...we just have to have her back here, don't you agree! Hey listers, will joni being doing a TTT tour...am i behind the times, has she already toured for it? Vanessa from Mooroolbark? Where is that Vanessa, in NSW? Have you too seen joni in concert? It's a suburb of Melbourne, isn't it? Greg, have you been able to get any joni videos? (if so what ones?) Cos i've tried to get them thru music stores but been told its impossible, and that the formating on US tapes is different. There are vcr machines that take both PAL and NTSC and a number of other formats and while they are much more expensive than the standard models they do mean that you can play imported software. Also it may be worth waiting for the DVD machines to become more prevalent and the software. You can probably buy a DVD machine eventually which is also adaptable to both the US and Aust formatted DVD's. The advantage of the DVD of course it that you can also play your ordinary audio CD's on them using the same set of speakers. Not sure if there are likely to be any JONI DVD's on the market in the near future. My son bought a DVD player from the US and buys his DVD software through the internet, but it would help to have a machine that played both formats. Then you could buy the locally issed DVD as well. Meanwhile if you want to get a VCR only I do know of one model - there could be many more - which plays PAL and NTSC as well as Mesecam, Secam, NTSC358. It is the JVC Multiple System machine. You simply flick a small switch! model number HRJ 507M5. Best to contact JVC to see where it is obtainable from, but it does mean that you can play JONI tapes once you get hold of one. Could be worth the (biggish) investment! Paul G Sydneyside ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:20:18 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) In a message dated 1/21/99 12:32:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: << (why? they did Starship tunes). Anyway, Marty was incredible, but in Grace's > place they had a young lady sing who sounded *AMAZINGLY* like her!!! Do you > know who this may have been??? She was about 25 years old, slender, with long > brown hair, and a commanding stage presence. I believe that is Grace and Marty's daughter. She does look and sound a lot like her mother. Jerry >> That would be Grace and Paul Kantner's daughter, not Marty's. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:13:35 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) In a message dated 1/21/99 11:55:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, Dreamzvill@aol.com writes: << Anyway, Marty was incredible, but in Grace's place they had a young lady sing who sounded *AMAZINGLY* like her!!! Do you know who this may have been??? She was about 25 years old, slender, with long brown hair, and a commanding stage presence. >> Could it have been China Slick, Grace's daughter? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:40:39 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Joni mentions and remakes ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Vicki asked: <> Vicki, Try as I might, the only things I find myself wanting her to re-do are some of the songs from TTT. Man From Mars, especially, having heard her original piano version, is so much more breathtaking in its original state. Lead Balloon should be more rockin' than it is and could stand re-work. No Apologies should sound angrier than it does, as should the title track. But they can leave "Harlem" as it is...it's purrrrfect! :~) Bob NP: XTC "Melt The Guns" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:16:33 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) On the origins of China Kantner: > I believe that is Grace and Marty's daughter. She does look and sound a lot >like > her mother. > Jerry >> > >That would be Grace and Paul Kantner's daughter, not Marty's. >Paul I I've met China and she looks like a blond-haired version of Grace. Maybe the confusion with Marty is because Grace became involved with him while still married to Paul, but she is Paul's daughter. Grace said in a recent interview that China (who had her own short-lived TV sit-com a few years back) is currently studying acting in L.A. I don't think she has ever sung with the band. Has anyone read Grace's new autobiography? It sounds really great and has received good reviews. Kakki NP: in my head White Rabbit ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:14:57 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Grace/Jefferson Airplane(NJC) >with the band. Has anyone read Grace's new autobiography? It sounds really >great and has received good reviews. >Kakki >NP: in my head White Rabbit I read it. It's OK. Resonates with her voice. Vivid recollection of the Monterey Pop Festival as a manifestation of how the underground blossomed wonderously into the mainstream. Worth a library check out at least. - -jan NP: in my head: a version of Wipeout that started a half hour ago ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:22:10 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Wiped Out (NJC) Jan hears: <> It must be that Grateful Dead version then :~D ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:21:19 From: Lisa Kowalski Subject: Amelia Question Hi I'm Lisa a newbie to the JMDL and I have a question about Amelia.What does Joni mean by"Amelia,it was just a false alarm" What was a false alarm? Also can anyone explain the verse: I wish that he was here tonight It's so hard to obey His sad request of me to kindly stay away So this is how I hide the hurt As the road leads cursed and charmed I tell Amelia,it was just a false alarm What does Joni feeling hurt by this guy wanting her to stay away have to do with Amelia Earhardt and what does it have to do with a false alarm? and why is she telling Amelia that its a false alarm? I would appreciate any interpretations since there has been alot of great analysis regarding some of Jonis songs going on here lately! Thanks Lisa ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #37 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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