From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #32
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Monday, January 18 1999 Volume 04 : Number 032
The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes
by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery
username: jimdle password: siquomb
-------
The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Re: NJC: Ritual Purification (REM) [FredNow@aol.com]
Re: NJC: We're An American Band? [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
Re: We're An American Band (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
Re: We're An American Band (NJC) [FredNow@aol.com]
Re: (NJC) Hippie/Cobain ["Eric Taylor" ]
Re: rap ["P. Henry" ]
Re[2]: NJC: Ritual Purification (REM) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re: Beth Nielsen Chapman and Joni Tribute CD ["Marsha" ]
Re: We're An American Band (NJC) [Ginamu@aol.com]
Re: Harp jokes (NJC) ["John M. Lind" ]
Entertainment Today Reviews The Painted iD ["Peter Holmstedt" ]
Re: NJC American Bands/CCR [Dreamzvill@aol.com]
Who *really* invented rap [Mary Pitassi ]
Re: We're An American Band (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
Re: CCR (NJC) [Dreamzvill@aol.com]
More _Monster_ [Mary Pitassi ]
Re: Real _Monster_ [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
Oops (NJC) [Mary Pitassi ]
Re: YES (VLJC). [Dreamzvill@aol.com]
Re[2]: CCR (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re[2]: We're An American Band (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re[2]: Real _Monster_ (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re: Oops (NJC) [Bounced Message ]
Re: CCR (NJC) [Dreamzvill@aol.com]
Martin Luther King ~ "Loving Your Enemies" [simon@icu.com]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:59:16 EST
From: FredNow@aol.com
Subject: Re: NJC: Ritual Purification (REM)
RMuRocks@aol.com wrote:
>>And I would also vote REM the most important AMERICAN BAND (not to be
>>confused
with British bands or American solo artists) to come down
>>the pipe with CCR in
second place
OK, I'll open my big mouth and take the bait. I enjoy some earlier REM tunes
- -- The One I Love, It's The End Of The World As We Know It, Stand (and several
others that are spin-offs of these) -- but can't really abide by any
assessment of them as "the most important AMERICAN BAND."
Besides Creedence Clearwater Revival (which Mr. Rocks places second but who I
would place way ahead of REM), some other American bands vastly more important
in my view are:
The Beach Boys
The Byrds
Buffalo Springfield
CSN/CSN&Y
Jimi Hendrix Experience (although even though Jimi, the focal member, was
American I suppose a case could be made that this was an English group because
it was 2/3 English)
The Police (on the other hand, despite the focal member being English, perhaps
it could be argued that this was an American band because it was 2/3 American)
Earth Wind And Fire
The Band
The Temptations
Sly And The Family Stone
Santana
Jefferson Airplane
... just to name a few off the top of my head.
- -Fred
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 03:13:24 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: NJC: We're An American Band?
In a message dated 1/18/99 3:06:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, FredNow@aol.com
writes:
<< The Band >>
I thought The Band was generally considered a Canadian group, sine only Levon
Helm was an American, or so I had heard and read.
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 03:15:01 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: We're An American Band (NJC)
In a message dated 1/18/99 3:06:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, FredNow@aol.com
writes:
<<
The Beach Boys
The Byrds
Buffalo Springfield
CSN/CSN&Y
Jimi Hendrix Experience >>
And maybe the Doors?
They make R.E.M. look like sick puppies.
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 03:25:49 EST
From: FredNow@aol.com
Subject: Re: We're An American Band (NJC)
In a message dated 1/18/99 2:15:01 AM, IVPAUL42 wrote:
>And maybe the Doors?
>They make R.E.M. look like sick puppies
Yes, although they aren't among my faves, I would rank them ahead of REM in
importance.
><< The Band >>
>I thought The Band was generally considered a Canadian group, sine only Levon
Helm
>was an American, or so I had heard and read
Yeah, mostly Canadians and some Americans, but their music was as American as
music gets.
- -Fred
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 03:46:16 -0500
From: "Eric Taylor"
Subject: Re: (NJC) Hippie/Cobain
Marilune@aol.com wrote:
<>
IVPAUL42@aol.com responded:
<>
I say, what about Jane's Addiction? "Three Days" and "Mountain Song" are sky
high IMNSHO.
E.T.
NP: Jane Says
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:42:31 -0000
From: "P. Henry"
Subject: Re: rap
tr wrote:
< Rap has had many names and places previously. 'Talking blues' is one of the earlier forms... >
think you got it right... though, if one can take a broader perspective on rap as 'poetry set to music', the true origins may actually be in the 50's greenwich coffeehouse beat scene...
there were definitely more than one "talkin' blues" and it was really more of a format than a song, often used as a vehicle for protest rhetoric... one of dylan's first albums contained a humorous one he wrote that showed it's time frame by it's content...
"I don't know but I've been told
the streets of heaven are paved with gold
I ask you how things could get much worse
if the russians should happen to get up there first?
wowee..! pretty scary..!"
pat
NP: "mr. soul" - buffalo springfield
http://members.wbs.net/homepages/b/a/d/badwolff.html
Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:56:52 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: NJC: Ritual Purification (REM)
Fred responded:
<>
Fred, these are all great bands, and of course the topic and definition are
totally subjective, so there's *NO* right or wrong. If you look at the
perspective of *longevity*, it would be hard to argue against REM. Sure, the
Beach Boys have had more hits, and continued to perform a long while, but they
lost their creative spark long before they hung up their performing shoes. I
suppose my selections of REM & CCR split into two categories. CCR didn't last
long, but the quantity of memorable songs they cranked out is amazing. Not just
the quantity, but the fact that the songs tackled social issues simultaneously
with being great rock 'n rollers makes them very special indeed.
REM, for me anyway, succeed on every level; they have yet to put out a record
that hasn't been commercially and critically successful, despite the fact that
they continue to grow and evolve. I love Earth, Wind & Fire but like many of the
bands you mention they found a niche and stayed with it, allowing themselves to
stagnate. Perhaps this is why they faded away when they did, not being able to
keep themselves or the public interested. The fact that REM have to compete in a
market that is infinitely more fickle than the 60's/70's eras also makes their
feat remarkable.
In an era of superstars, REM has remained remarkably down to earth. They still
live in Athens, GA and are active in their own community, both in terms of music
and local politics. By the same token, they use their considerable global clout,
not for photo ops but to aid in issues they have a passion for.
From a live performance standpoint, REM have few peers. Their shows vary every
night, they rarely go back and play "old hits" but rather approach each show as
a singular happening.
So there's my criteria - yours will differ I'm sure and that's fine. But when
you look at how long the band has been around, how successful they've been
coupled with the integrity to not let themselves be spoiled by the success,
their ability to grow artistically, their dedication to quality live performance
as a separate art form than studio work, for me they're a hard act to follow.
Most of the acts you list burned brighter but for a much shorter period of time.
Bob
NP: The Wallflowers "Sixth Ave. Heartache"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:20:14 -0500
From: "Marsha"
Subject: Re: Beth Nielsen Chapman and Joni Tribute CD
David wrote:
>I thought you might enjoy knowing what you missed.
and then rubbed salt in the wound with:
>You missed a great time.
If you had posted pre-attendance, maybe some of us would
not have missed it, David... :-)
(but then I probably enjoyed seeing the Lady Vols beat Kentucky
more...)
Marsha
and I'm seeing Iris Dement this Saturday here in Knoxville
for anyone who might be glad to know she is in our
environs before the fact...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:56:14 EST
From: Ginamu@aol.com
Subject: Re: We're An American Band (NJC)
In a message dated 1/18/99 3:22:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com
writes:
> And maybe the Doors?
> They make R.E.M. look like sick puppies.
>
I can't imagine anyone truly interested in music considering REM "sick
puppies" in comparison to any band. REM have proven their worth time and again
in regard to artistic integrity, among other things (read RMuRocks post again,
he put it much better than I ever could - thank you, Bob) As superstars they
have remained true to themselves as people and true to their art. I love
everything they've done...including that they went out on a limb with Monster
after the commercially successful and radio friendly Automatic For The People.
They remind me of Joni Mitchell in that their work flies in the face of what
the public and the record industry would like to hear. So...if they are not,
in some people's opinion, the best American rock band, neither are they sick
puppies in comparison to whoever one considers the best to be.
Gina
NP: my daughter's James Galway CD
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:10:45 -0500
From: "John M. Lind"
Subject: Re: Harp jokes (NJC)
David wrote:
>Q. How long does a harp stay in tune?
>A. 20 minutes, or until someone opens a door.
Boy you aren't kidding! I thought my sitar was a mutha to keep tuned until
I got my wife her lap harp for christmas.
Robert Fripp's 8th law of being a profesional musician:
"Tuning a Melotron doesn't."
John~
NP "Ocean Gypsy" Renassiance
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:17:45 +0100
From: "Peter Holmstedt"
Subject: Entertainment Today Reviews The Painted iD
The Painted iD - "The Painted iD"
( Fox Street Records )
By Eric Layton, Entertainment Today
"The Painted iD deals with issues most thirtysomethings can relate to. This
acoustic-leaning Santa Monica-based quartet treads themes of love,
commitment, change, introspection and adversity on their self-titled indie
debut; what results isn't heavy-handed coffeehouse drivel but a refreshing,
solid effort. They may not be reinventing the folk-rock wheel but they
definitely know their way around the spokes.
This foursome - singer Tori Solomon, guitarist Peter De Baets, drummer
Barry Schapira, bassist Ricardo Belled - set the tone straightaway with the
shimmering acoustic strains of "Rici". Immediately noticeable is Solomon's
crisp, generous voice and a jangly, agreeable pop style that informs most
of the tracks, with some pleasing atmospheric touches sprinkled about like
fairy dust. While shadows of 10,000 Maniacs exist (this is music you can
feed your baby to) and the songs seem Lilith-ready, the Painted iD remains
an enchanting troupe with a few surprises up its sleeve.
Introspection and cleverness go into "Complicated Goddess", a plugged-in
yet softly rendered gem that contains one of this disk's true surprises -
an organ line fit for a baseball game. The forceful, emotionally resonant
"No Reaching Me" is one of the choice cuts, while the passionate "Stone by
Stone" is equally impressive. Harmonies prove to be one of the Painted iD's
strong suits, as evidenced on the syrupy-yet-captivating "Ties that Bind".
In the spirit of mixing up this batch of songs, "Signature" gallops to a
quicker pace than most of its counterparts and is buffed to a gleaming pop
shine.
The key components to this act's style are Solomon's reliable pipes and De
Baets' six-string efforts; the latter is particularly effective on
"Soulmate", where the guitarist flirts with classical styles. The lyricism
on this cut is revealing as well - with damaged-girl longing, Solomon
implores, "Do more than kiss me". It's not as saucy as it sounds - this is
a woman searching for a love less ordinary.
With the right promotion and breaks, The Painted iD could be ready for
prime time. It's tough to say whether or not big-time success figures into
the band's game plan, but one thing's for certain: They're clearly enjoying
themselves. And that feeling carries over to the listener.
The Painted iD will hold a record release party Jan. 22 at The Mint. You
can visit their website at www.thepaintedid.com."
Entertainment Today can be found at most Los Angeles-area newstands, or on
the web at www.ent-today.com.
The Painted iD CD can be purchased at the following web sites:
http://www. RocketEntertainment.com/ - Rocket Entertainment
http://cdbaby.com/buy/paintedid.htm - CD Baby
http://www.amazon.com/ - Amazon.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:33:22 -0600
From: Mark Domyancich
Subject: Re: Harp jokes (NJC)
I once saw a beat up station wagon with a bumpersticker that said
"Certified harp transporter." Is there such a thing?
Mark
NP-Black Crow
At 11:10 AM -0500 1/18/99, John M. Lind wrote:
> Boy you aren't kidding! I thought my sitar was a mutha to keep tuned until
> I got my wife her lap harp for christmas.
___________________________________
| Mark Domyancich |
| Harpua@revealed.net |
| http://home.revealed.net/Harpua |
| http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark |
|_________________________________|
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:17:01 EST
From: Dreamzvill@aol.com
Subject: Re: NJC American Bands/CCR
Oh my God...
You asked about John Fogerty and CCR...
There's so much to say, so little time!!!
John Fogerty may have been singlehandedly responsible for making my teen years
livable, and started me on the righteous path of rock'n'roll! He inspired me
to almost everything that has been important in my life.
So, yes, I would have to rate CCR as my #1 American Band.
Susan C.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:21:32 -0600
From: Mary Pitassi
Subject: Who *really* invented rap
John Lind wrote:
"You're all wrong! Rap was originated by the ancient Masadonians in the 6th
century B.C. as recorded in the Library of Alexandria"
John, John, John. You got it *almost* right. Everyone knows that rap was
invented by the ancient *Madisonians*, whose claim to musical fame far, far
predated Butch Vig and Smart Studios in the early 1990's. What can I say?
We're *everywhere*! ;-)
Mary P.,
Living in, and loving, Madison, Wisconsin,
Proud home of 3/4 of Garbage.
P.S. And a hearty "welcome back" to Patrick Leader!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:23:33 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: We're An American Band (NJC)
In a message dated 1/18/99 10:59:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ginamu@aol.com
writes:
<< I can't imagine anyone truly interested in music considering REM "sick
puppies" in comparison to any band. REM have proven their worth time and
again
in regard to artistic integrity, among other things (read RMuRocks post
again,
he put it much better than I ever could - thank you, Bob) As superstars they
have remained true to themselves as people and true to their art. >>
Sorry, I have never been impressed by R.E.M. I cannot recall in my head a
single melody or lyric from any of their songs, despite having heard them
often on the radio and in my home for the better part of a decade.
I guess I never "got" R.E.M. because I don't know what any of their songs
are about. To me, the Doors comparison was valid because the times I've seen
R.E.M. on TV they, especially the lead singer, seemed pretty stuck on himself,
much like Jim Morrison.
The difference is that I "got" Doors music and understood the lyrics.
As much an admission about R.E.M. as a criticism, I suppose.
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:34:40 EST
From: Dreamzvill@aol.com
Subject: Re: CCR (NJC)
In a message dated 1/17/99 3:47:30 AM !!!First Boot!!!, RMuRocks@aol.com
writes:
<< I haven't picked up on 'Swamp' yet but I know I should - I love Fogerty's
voice and guitar work. CCR only recorded a handful of albums 3 or 4, but they
were known for singles not for albums and they had a mess of 'em in their
short career. More on the subject later, I'm too pooped now to get into
it...;~) >>
OK, OK, ya talked me into it! I have to at *least* let you know they had more
albums than that!
First was the self-titled debut ('68) "Creedence Clearwater Revival", then
"Bayou Country" (1969), Green River (1969), Willie & The Poorboys (1970),
Cosmo's Factory (1970), Pendulum (1971), Mardi Gras (1972). Those are the
basics - the original studio albums no one should be without. There are a few
live albums, and a bunch of compilations and reissues (including one called
"Pre-Creedence" which was all of the Golliwogs singles - some of which were
actually quite good), but I won't go into that list - too long! :)
As for Fogerty solo, there is the great "Blue Ridge Rangers" LP (released
on my 16th birthday, 1973), the self-titled "John Fogerty" (1975),
"Centerfield"('85), "Eye Of The Zombie"('86), and of course, "Blue Moon Swamp"
and "Premonition".
Cheers, Susan C.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:33:37 -0600
From: Mary Pitassi
Subject: More _Monster_
Responding to Jim L'Hommedieu, Gina wrote:
"Monster is one of my favorite REM albums. I don't think I've ever read a
review of it nor spoken with anyone about it. The lyrics are deeply
personal,
at times very painful. It is raw. I did read in an interview with Courtney
Love where she said that Crush With Eyeliner was written about her."
Gina, I agree with your take on this album. It also strikes me as being
"raw" emotionally, for the most part. In addition, I can't help but
associate it in time with Michael Stipe's first (as far as I know) public
statements in the mainstream press that he wasn't straight, although he
refused to label his sexuality, then or later. There's a lot of gender
ambiguity in _Monster_ which I just love.
Finally, in the same set of press interviews, I recall Stipe talking openly
about his deep grief over River Phoenix's death, which had occurred the year
before. I always think of one or two of the _Monster_ songs as being about
River, whether Stipe intended them to be or not.
Mary P.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:44:49 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: Real _Monster_
In a message dated 1/18/99 12:40:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
PitassiM@WEAC.org writes:
<<
"Monster is one of my favorite REM albums. I don't think I've ever read a
review of it nor spoken with anyone about it. The lyrics are deeply
personal,
at times very painful. It is raw. >>
"Monster" is my favorite Steppenwolf album. I don't remember ever reading a
review of R.E.M.'s "Monster" or spoken with anyone about it. The lyrics are
deeply personal, but can be painful. It is definitely raw.
"America, where are you now,
don't you care about
your sons and daughters.
Don't you know
we need you now
to protect us all
against the monster."
Steppenwolf also is credited with naming its own genre -- "heavy metal
thunder."
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:49:59 -0600
From: Mary Pitassi
Subject: Oops (NJC)
My apologies to all for sending two "NJC" posts not marked "NJC." Which is
worse, sending the posts to begin with, or taking up bandwidth with another
post to apologize for them? ;-)
. . .Don't answer that. . .
Sorry,
Mary P.
Still needing caffeine on a slow Monday.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:58:12 EST
From: Dreamzvill@aol.com
Subject: Re: YES (VLJC).
Thanks for the *GREAT* info, Michael!!! You made my day!
Susan C.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:30:40 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: CCR (NJC)
Susan sez:
<>
Gee, did I say "3 or 4"? I meant to say "3 + 4"...:~D
But seriously,when I sent my original message I was too tired for the
research and didn't have their discography in my head. They were
*really* a singles band anyway with their albums merely a convenient
way to package them.
Thanks Susan for stepping up and supplying the info!!
Bob
NP: Gillian Welch "One More Dollar"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:48:59 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: We're An American Band (NJC)
Paul admits:
<>
So Paul, how about explaining "Horse Lattitudes" to me...:^D
Actually, I love the Doors too, I've been praising their boxset with
all of its previously unreleased stuff, so I don't think we need to
have REM & The Doors do a "Battle of The Bands". I think there's a
difference between "liking" an artist/band whatever and appreciating
their significance. I know this is where I fail with Rap; I don't like
much of it so I can't appreciate it. I don't like anything the
Grateful Dead did but i can *appreciate* what they meant to the world
of music. That doesn't mean you *have* to *like* them, but it is
important I think to acknowledge what they have accomplished over
time.
Additionally, their music (like Joni's) is not always "gettable"
easily - Stipe's vocals were often unintelligible and they never
printed lyrics, so they challenged their audience to seek meanings and
analyze their work. That probably lost them more fans than it won...
Bob
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:54:34 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: Real _Monster_ (NJC)
Paul recalls:
<<"Monster" is my favorite Steppenwolf album. I don't remember ever reading a
review of R.E.M.'s "Monster" or spoken with anyone about it. The lyrics are
deeply personal, but can be painful. It is definitely raw.
"America, where are you now,
don't you care about
your sons and daughters.
Don't you know
we need you now
to protect us all
against the monster.">>
Paul, don't know if you were joking or serious here, but this Steppenwolf track
is a great one - I've always heard "we can't fight alone against the monster"
though...
Bob "Born To Be Wild" in SC
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:01:50 -0700
From: Bounced Message
Subject: Re: Oops (NJC)
From: "Don Rowe"
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:34:28 PST
Mary P writes ...
>My apologies to all for sending two "NJC" posts not marked "NJC."
Whi.ch is
>worse, sending the posts to begin with, or taking up bandwidth with
another
>post to apologize for them? ;-)
>
Let me see ... as I leaf through the massive volumes of the JMDL by-laws
... okay, here it is, Volume 2, Section 4.4.1, Page 1053, paragraph 9:
"When that the party of the first part, having failed to grant attainder
of NJC for the Message (hereafter referred to as The Post), Posters
(receivers of The Post) shall have the right to invoke a referrant of
request for inclusion. This may take several forms, up to and including
an apologetic second Post of Forgiveness, providing that Post does not
exceed 3K bandwidth."
Hope this helps. ;-)
Don Rowe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:11:00 EST
From: Dreamzvill@aol.com
Subject: Re: CCR (NJC)
Bob-
I guess you could say that most the CCR/Fogerty info is inscribed
permanently on my brain cells!
Now that I've had my musical memory nudged, I'll probably make it a CCR
day and play the entire discography (guess who I got *that* idea from!:)!
Cheers, Susan C.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:18:31 -0800
From: simon@icu.com
Subject: Martin Luther King ~ "Loving Your Enemies"
in honor of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
- ------------------------------------------------
Loving Your Enemies, November 17 1957.
I am forced to preach under something of a handicap this morning. In fact, I
had the doctor before coming to church. And he said that it would be best
for me to stay in the bed this morning. And I insisted that I would have to
come to preach. So he allowed me to come out with one stipulation, and that
is that I would not come in the pulpit until time to preach, and that after,
that I would immediately go back home
and get in the bed. So I'm going to try to follow his instructions from that
point on.
I want to use as a subject from which to preach this morning a very familiar
subject, and it is familiar to you because I have preached from this subject
twice before to my knowing in this pulpit. I try to make it a, something of
a custom or tradition to preach from this passage of Scripture at least once
a year, adding new insights that I develop along the way out of new
experiences as I give these messages. Although the content is, the basic
content is the same, new insights and new experiences naturally make for new
illustrations.
So I want to turn your attention to this subject: "Loving Your Enemies."
It's so basic to me because it is a part of my basic philosophical and
theological orientation-the whole idea of love, the whole philosophy of
love. In the fifth chapter of the gospel as recorded by Saint Matthew, we
read these very arresting words flowing from the lips of our Lord and
Master: "Ye have heard that it has been said, 'Thou shall
love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.' But I say unto you, Love your
enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray
for them that despitefully use you; that ye may be the children of your
Father which is in heaven."
Certainly these are great words, words lifted to cosmic proportions. And
over the centuries, many persons have argued that this is an extremely
difficult command. Many would go so far as to say that it just isn't
possible to move out into the actual practice of this glorious command. They
would go on to say that this is just additional proof that Jesus was an
impractical idealist who never quite came down to
earth. So the arguments abound. But far from being an impractical idealist,
Jesus has become the practical realist. The words of this text glitter in
our eyes with a new urgency. Far from being the pious injunction of a
utopian dreamer, this command is an absolute necessity for the survival of
our civilization. Yes, it is love that will save our world and our
civilization, love even for enemies.
Now let me hasten to say that Jesus was very serious when he gave this
command; he wasn't playing. He realized that it's hard to love your enemies.
He realized that it's difficult to love those persons who seek to defeat
you, those persons who say evil things about you. He realized that it was
painfully hard, pressingly hard. But he wasn't playing. And we cannot
dismiss this passage as just another example of
Oriental hyperbole, just a sort of exaggeration to get over the point. This
is a basic philosophy of all that we hear coming from the lips of our
Master. Because Jesus wasn't playing; because he was serious. We have the
Christian and moral responsibility to seek to discover the meaning of these
words, and to discover how we can live out this command, and why we should
live by this command.
Now first let us deal with this question, which is the practical question:
How do you go about loving your enemies? I think the first thing is this: In
order to love your enemies, you must begin by analyzing self. And I'm sure
that seems strange to you, that I start out telling you this morning that
you love your enemies by beginning with a look at self. It seems to me that
that is the first and foremost way to come to an
adequate discovery to the how of this situation.
Now, I'm aware of the fact that some people will not like you, not because
of something you have done to them, but they just won't like you. I'm quite
aware of that. Some people aren't going to like the way you walk; some
people aren't going to like the way you talk. Some people aren't going to
like you because you can do your job better than they can do theirs. Some
people aren't going to like you because other people like you, and because
you're popular, and because you're well-liked, they aren't going to like
you. Some people aren't going to like you because your hair is a little
shorter than theirs or your hair is a little longer than theirs. Some people
aren't going to like you because your skin is a little brighter than theirs;
and others aren't going to like you because your skin is a little darker
than theirs. So that some people aren't going to like you. They're going to
dislike you, not because of something that you've done to them, but because
of various jealous reactions and other reactions that are so prevalent in
human nature.
But after looking at these things and admitting these things, we must face
the fact that an individual might dislike us because of something that we've
done deep down in the past, some personality attribute that we possess,
something that we've done deep down in the past and we've forgotten about
it; but it was that something that aroused the hate response within the
individual. That is why I say, begin with yourself. There might be something
within you that arouses the tragic hate response in the other individual.
This is true in our international struggle. We look at the struggle, the
ideological struggle between communism on the one hand and democracy on the
other, and we see the struggle between America and Russia. Now certainly, we
can never give our allegiance to the Russian way of life, to the communistic
way of life, because communism is based on an ethical relativism and a
metaphysical materialism that no Christian can accept. When we look at the
methods of communism, a philosophy where somehow the end justifies the
means, we cannot accept that because we believe as Christians that the end
is pre-existent in the means. But in spite of all of the weaknesses and
evils inherent in communism, we must at the same time see the weaknesses and
evils within democracy.
Democracy is the greatest form of government to my mind that man has ever
conceived, but the weakness is that we have never touched it. Isn't it true
that we have often taken necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the
classes? Isn't it true that we have often in our democracy trampled over
individuals and races with the iron feet of oppression? Isn't it true that
through our Western powers we have perpetuated colonialism and imperialism?
And all of these things must be taken under consideration as we look at
Russia. We must face the fact that the rhythmic beat of the deep rumblings
of discontent from Asia and Africa is at bottom a revolt against the
imperialism and colonialism perpetuated by Western civilization all these
many years. The success of communism in the world today is due to the
failure of democracy to live up to the noble ideals and principles inherent
in its system.
And this is what Jesus means when he said: "How is it that you can see the
mote in your brother's eye and not see the beam in your own eye?" Or to put
it in Moffatt's translation: "How is it that you see the splinter in your
brother's eye and fail to see the plank in your own eye?" And this is one of
the tragedies of human nature. So we begin to love our enemies and love
those persons that hate us whether in
collective life or individual life by looking at ourselves.
A second thing that an individual must do in seeking to love his enemy is to
discover the element of good in his enemy, and everytime you begin to hate
that person and think of hating that person, realize that there is some good
there and look at those good points which will over-balance the bad points.
I've said to you on many occasions that each of us is something of a
schizophrenic personality. We're split up and divided against ourselves. And
there is something of a civil war going on within all of our lives. There is
a recalcitrant South of our soul revolting against the North of our soul.
And there is this continual struggle within the very structure of every
individual life. There is something within all of us that causes us to cry
out with Ovid, the Latin poet, "I see and approve the better things of life,
but the evil things I do." There is something within all of us that causes
us to cry out with Plato that the human personality is like a charioteer
with two headstrong horses, each wanting to go in different directions.
There is something within each of us that causes us to cry out with Goethe,
"There is enough stuff in me to
make both a gentleman and a rogue." There is something within each of us
that causes us to cry out with Apostle Paul, "I see and approve the better
things of life, but the evil things I do."
So somehow the "isness" of our present nature is out of harmony with the
eternal "oughtness" that forever confronts us. And this simply means this:
That within the best of us, there is some evil, and within the worst of us,
there is some good. When we come to see this, we take a different attitude
toward individuals. The person who hates you most has some good in him; even
the nation that hates you most has some good in it; even the race that hates
you most has some good in it. And when you come to the point that you look
in the face of every man and see deep down within him what religion calls
"the image of God," you begin to love him in spite of. No matter what he
does, you see God's image there. There is an element of goodness that he can
never sluff off. Discover the element of good in your enemy. And as you seek
to hate him, find the center of goodness and place your attention there and
you will take a new attitude.
Another way that you love your enemy is this: When the opportunity presents
itself for you to defeat your enemy, that is the time which you must not do
it. There will come a time, in many instances, when the person who hates you
most, the person who has misused you most, the person who has gossiped about
you most, the person who has spread false rumors about you most, there will
come a time when you will
have an opportunity to defeat that person. It might be in terms of a
recommendation for a job; it might be in terms of helping that person to
make some move in life. That's the time you must do it. That is the meaning
of love. In the final analysis, love is not this sentimental something that
we talk about. It's not merely an emotional something. Love is creative,
understanding goodwill for all men. It is the refusal to defeat any
individual. When you rise to the level of love, of its great beauty and
power, you seek only to defeat evil systems. Individuals who happen to be
caught up in that system, you love, but you seek to defeat the system.
The Greek language, as I've said so often before, is very powerful at this
point. It comes to our aid beautifully in giving us the real meaning and
depth of the whole philosophy of love. And I think it is quite apropos at
this point, for you see the Greek language has three words for love,
interestingly enough. It talks about love as eros. That's one word for love.
Eros is a sort of, aesthetic love. Plato talks about it a great deal in his
dialogues, a sort of yearning of the soul for the realm of the gods. And
it's come to us to be a sort of romantic love, though it's a beautiful love.
Everybody has experienced eros in all of its beauty when you find some
individual that is attractive to you and that you pour out all of your like
and your love on that individual. That is eros, you see, and it's a
powerful, beautiful love that is given to us through all of
the beauty of literature; we read about it.
Then the Greek language talks about philia, and that's another type of love
that's also beautiful. It is a sort of intimate affection between personal
friends. And this is the type of love that you have for those persons that
you're friendly with, your intimate friends, or people that you call on the
telephone and you go by to have dinner with, and your roommate in college
and that type of thing. It's a sort of reciprocal
love. On this level, you like a person because that person likes you. You
love on this level, because you are loved. You love on this level, because
there's something about the person you love that is likeable to you. This
too is a beautiful love. You can communicate with a person; you have certain
things in common; you like to do things together. This is philia.
The Greek language comes out with another word for love. It is the word
agape. And agape is more than eros; agape is more than philia; agape is
something of the understanding, creative, redemptive goodwill for all men.
It is a love that seeks nothing in return. It is an overflowing love; it's
what theologians would call the love of God working in the lives of men. And
when you rise to love on this level, you begin to love men, not because they
are likeable, but because God loves them. You look at every man, and you
love him because you know God loves him. And he might be the worst person
you've ever seen.
And this is what Jesus means, I think, in this very passage when he says,
"Love your enemy." And it's significant that he does not say, "Like your
enemy." Like is a sentimental something, an affectionate something. There
are a lot of people that I find it difficult to like. I don't like what they
do to me. I don't like what they say about me and other people. I don't like
their attitudes. I don't like some of the things
they're doing. I don't like them. But Jesus says love them. And love is
greater than like. Love is understanding, redemptive goodwill for all men,
so that you love everybody, because God loves them. You refuse to do
anything that will defeat an individual, because you have agape in your
soul. And here you come to the point that you love the individual who does
the evil deed, while hating the deed that the person does. This is what
Jesus means when he says, "Love your enemy." This is the way to do it. When
the opportunity presents itself when you can defeat your enemy, you must not
do it.
Now for the few moments left, let us move from the practical how to the
theoretical why. It's not only necessary to know how to go about loving your
enemies, but also to go down into the question of why we should love our
enemies. I think the first reason that we should love our enemies, and I
think this was at the very center of Jesus' thinking, is this: that hate for
hate only intensifies the existence of hate and evil
in the universe. If I hit you and you hit me and I hit you back and you hit
me back and go on, you see, that goes on ad infinitum. [tapping on pulpit]
It just never ends. Somewhere somebody must have a little sense, and that's
the strong person. The strong person is the person who can cut off the chain
of hate, the chain of evil. And that is the tragedy of hate, that it doesn't
cut it off. It only intensifies the existence of
hate and evil in the universe. Somebody must have religion enough and
morality enough to cut it off and inject within the very structure of the
universe that strong and powerful element of love.
I think I mentioned before that sometime ago my brother and I were driving
one evening to Chattanooga, Tennessee, from Atlanta. He was driving the car.
And for some reason the drivers were very discourteous that night. They
didn't dim their lights; hardly any driver that passed by dimmed his lights.
And I remember very vividly, my brother A. D. looked over and in a tone of
anger said: "I know what I'm going to do. The next car that comes along here
and refuses to dim the lights, I'm going to fail to dim mine and pour them
on in all of their power." And I looked at him right quick and said: "Oh no,
don't do that. There'd be too much light on this highway, and it will end up
in mutual destruction for all. Somebody got to have some sense on this
highway."
Somebody must have sense enough to dim the lights, and that is the trouble,
isn't it? That as all of the civilizations of the world move up the highway
of history, so many civilizations, having looked at other civilizations that
refused to dim the lights, and they decided to refuse to dim theirs. And
Toynbee tells that out of the twenty-two civilizations that have risen up,
all but about seven have found themselves in the
junkheap of destruction. It is because civilizations fail to have sense
enough to dim the lights. And if somebody doesn't have sense enough to turn
on the dim and beautiful and powerful lights of love in this world, the
whole of our civilization will be plunged into the abyss of destruction. And
we will all end up destroyed because nobody had any sense on the highway of
history. Somewhere somebody must have
some sense. Men must see that force begets force, hate begets hate,
toughness begets toughness. And it is all a descending spiral, ultimately
ending in destruction for all and everybody. Somebody must have sense enough
and morality enough to cut off the chain of hate and the chain of evil in
the universe. And you do that by love.
There's another reason why you should love your enemies, and that is because
hate distorts the personality of the hater. We usually think of what hate
does for the individual hated or the individuals hated or the groups hated.
But it is even more tragic, it is even more ruinous and injurious to the
individual who hates. You just begin hating somebody, and you will begin to
do irrational things. You can't see straight when you hate. You can't walk
straight when you hate. You can't stand upright. Your vision is distorted.
There is nothing more tragic than to see an individual whose heart is filled
with hate. He comes to the point that he becomes a pathological case. For
the person who hates, you can stand up and see a person and that person can
be beautiful, and you will call them ugly. For the person who hates, the
beautiful becomes ugly and the ugly becomes beautiful. For the person who
hates, the good becomes bad and the bad becomes good. For the person who
hates, the true becomes false and the false becomes true. That's what hate
does. You can't see right. The symbol of objectivity is lost. Hate destroys
the very structure of the personality of the hater. And this is why Jesus
says hate [recording interrupted]
. . . that you want to be integrated with yourself, and the way to be
integrated with yourself is be sure that you meet every situation of life
with an abounding love. Never hate, because it ends up in tragic, neurotic
responses. Psychologists and psychiatrists are telling us today that the
more we hate, the more we develop guilt feelings and we begin to
subconsciously repress or consciously suppress certain emotions, and they
all stack up in our subconscious selves and make for tragic, neurotic
responses. And may this not be the neuroses of many individuals as they
confront life that that is an element of hate there. And modern psychology
is calling on us now to love. But long before modern psychology came into
being, the world's greatest psychologist who walked around the hills of
Galilee told us to love. He looked at men and said: "Love your enemies;
don't hate anybody." It's not enough for us to hate your friends because-to
to love your friends-because when you start hating anybody, it destroys the
very center of your creative response to life and the universe; so love
everybody. Hate at any point is a cancer that gnaws away at the very vital
center of your life and your existence. It is like eroding acid that eats
away the best and the objective center of your life. So Jesus says love,
because hate destroys the hater as well as the hated.
Now there is a final reason I think that Jesus says, "Love your enemies." It
is this: that love has within it a redemptive power. And there is a power
there that eventually transforms individuals. That's why Jesus says, "Love
your enemies." Because if you hate your enemies, you have no way to redeem
and to transform your enemies. But if you love your enemies, you will
discover that at the very root of love is the
power of redemption. You just keep loving people and keep loving them, even
though they're mistreating you. Here's the person who is a neighbor, and
this person is doing something wrong to you and all of that. Just keep being
friendly to that person. Keep loving them. Don't do anything to embarrass
them. Just keep loving them, and they can't stand it too long. Oh, they
react in many ways in the beginning. They react with bitterness because
they're mad because you love them like that. They react with guilt feelings,
and sometimes they'll hate you a little more at that transition period, but
just keep loving them. And by the power of your love they will break down
under the load. That's love, you see. It is redemptive, and this is why
Jesus says love. There's something about love that builds up and is
creative. There is something about hate that tears down and is destructive.
So love your enemies.
I think of one of the best examples of this. We all remember the great
president of this United States, Abraham Lincoln-these United States rather.
You remember when Abraham Lincoln was running for president of the United
States, there was a man who ran all around the country talking about
Lincoln. He said a lot of bad things about Lincoln, a lot of unkind things.
And sometimes he would get to the point that he would even talk about his
looks, saying, "You don't want a tall, lanky, ignorant man like this as the
president of the United States." He went on and on and on and went around
with that type of attitude and wrote about it. Finally, one day Abraham
Lincoln was elected president of the United States. And if you read the
great biography of Lincoln, if you read the great works about him, you will
discover that as every president comes to the point, he came to the point of
having to choose a Cabinet. And then came the time for him to choose a
Secretary of War. He looked across the nation, and decided to choose a man
by the name of Mr. Stanton. And when Abraham Lincoln stood around his
advisors and mentioned this fact, they said to him: "Mr. Lincoln, are you a
fool? Do you know what Mr. Stanton has been saying about you? Do you know
what he has done, tried to do to you? Do you know that he has tried to
defeat you on every hand? Do you know that, Mr. Lincoln? Did you read all of
those derogatory statements that he made about you?" Abraham Lincoln stood
before the advisors around him and said: "Oh yes, I know about it; I read
about it; I've heard him myself. But after looking over the country, I find
that he is the best man for the job."
Mr. Stanton did become Secretary of War, and a few months later, Abraham
Lincoln was assassinated. And if you go to Washington, you will discover
that one of the greatest words or statements ever made by, about Abraham
Lincoln was made about this man Stanton. And as Abraham Lincoln came to the
end of his life, Stanton stood up and said: "Now he belongs to the ages."
And he made a beautiful statement
concerning the character and the stature of this man. If Abraham Lincoln had
hated Stanton, if Abraham Lincoln had answered everything Stanton said,
Abraham Lincoln would have not transformed and redeemed Stanton. Stanton
would have gone to his grave hating Lincoln, and Lincoln would have gone to
his grave hating Stanton. But through the power of love Abraham Lincoln was
able to redeem Stanton.
That's it. There is a power in love that our world has not discovered yet.
Jesus discovered it centuries ago. Mahatma Gandhi of India discovered it a
few years ago, but most men and most women never discover it. For they
believe in hitting for hitting; they believe in an eye for an eye and a
tooth for a tooth; they believe in hating for hating; but Jesus comes to us
and says, "This isn't the way."
And oh this morning, as I think of the fact that our world is in transition
now. Our whole world is facing a revolution. Our nation is facing a
revolution, our nation. One of the things that concerns me most is that in
the midst of the revolution of the world and the midst of the revolution of
this nation, that we will discover the meaning of Jesus' words.
History unfortunately leaves some people oppressed and some people
oppressors. And there are three ways that individuals who are oppressed can
deal with their oppression. One of them is to rise up against their
oppressors with physical violence and corroding hatred. But oh this isn't
the way. For the danger and the weakness of this method is its futility.
Violence creates many more social problems than it solves. And I've said, in
so many instances, that as the Negro, in particular, and colored peoples all
over the world struggle for freedom, if they succumb to the temptation of
using violence in their struggle, unborn generations will be the recipients
of a long and desolate night of bitterness, and our chief legacy to the
future will be an endless reign of meaningless chaos. Violence isn't the
way.
Another way is to acquiesce and to give in, to resign yourself to the
oppression. Some people do that. They discover the difficulties of the
wilderness moving into the promised land, and they would rather go back to
the despots of Egypt because it's difficult to get in the promised land. And
so they resign themselves to the fate of oppression; they somehow acquiesce
to this thing. But that too isn't the way because non-cooperation with evil
is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation with good.
But there is another way. And that is to organize mass non-violent
resistance based on the principle of love. It seems to me that this is the
only way as our eyes look to the future. As we look out across the years and
across the generations, let us develop and move right here. We must discover
the power of love, the power, the redemptive power of love. And when we
discover that we will be able to make of this old world a new world. We will
be able to make men better. Love is the only way. Jesus discovered that.
Not only did Jesus discover it, even great military leaders discover that.
One day as Napoleon came toward the end of his career and looked back across
the years-the great Napoleon that at a very early age had all but conquered
the world. He was not stopped until he became, till he moved out to the
battle of Leipzig and then to Waterloo. But that same Napoleon one day stood
back and looked across the years, and said: "Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne,
and I have built great empires. But upon what did they depend? They depended
upon force. But long ago Jesus started an empire that depended on love, and
even to this day millions will die for him."
Yes, I can see Jesus walking around the hills and the valleys of Palestine.
And I can see him looking out at the Roman Empire with all of her
fascinating and intricate military machinery. But in the midst of that, I
can hear him saying: "I will not use this method. Neither will I hate the
Roman Empire." [Radio Announcer:] (WRMA, Montgomery, Alabama. Due to the
fact of the delay this morning, we are going over with the sermon.) [several
words inaudible] . . . and just start marching.
And I'm proud to stand here in Dexter this morning and say that that army is
still marching. It grew up from a group of eleven or twelve men to more than
seven hundred million today. Because of the power and influence of the
personality of this Christ, he was able to split history into a.d. and b.c.
Because of his power, he was able to shake the hinges from the gates of the
Roman Empire. And all around the world
this morning, we can hear the glad echo of heaven ring:
Jesus shall reign wherever sun,
Does his successive journeys run;
His kingdom spreads from shore to shore,
Till moon shall wane and wax no more.
We can hear another chorus singing: "All hail the power of Jesus name!"
We can hear another chorus singing: "Hallelujah, hallelujah! He's King of
Kings and Lord of
Lords. Hallelujah, hallelujah!"
We can hear another choir singing:
In Christ there is no East or West.
In Him no North or South,
But one great Fellowship of Love
Throughout the whole wide world.
This is the only way.
And our civilization must discover that. Individuals must discover that as
they deal with other individuals. There is a little tree planted on a little
hill and on that tree hangs the most influential character that ever came in
this world. But never feel that that tree is a meaningless drama that took
place on the stages of history. Oh no, it is a telescope through which we
look out into the long vista of eternity, and see the love of God breaking
forth into time. It is an eternal reminder to a power-drunk generation that
love is the only way. It is an eternal reminder to a generation depending on
nuclear and atomic energy, a generation depending on physical violence, that
love is the only creative, redemptive, transforming power in the universe.
So this morning, as I look into your eyes, and into the eyes of all of my
brothers in Alabama and all over America and over the world, I say to you,
"I love you. I would rather die than hate you." And I'm foolish enough to
believe that through the power of this love somewhere, men of the most
recalcitrant bent will be transformed. And then we will be in God's kingdom.
We will be able to matriculate into the university of eternal life because
we had the power to love our enemies, to bless those persons that cursed us,
to even decide to be good to those persons who hated us, and we even prayed
for those persons who despitefully used us.
Oh God, help us in our lives and in all of our attitudes, to work out this
controlling force of love, this controlling power that can solve every
problem that we confront in all areas. Oh, we talk about politics; we talk
about the problems facing our atomic civilization. Grant that all men will
come together and discover that as we solve the crisis and solve these
problems-the international problems, the problems of atomic energy, the
problems of nuclear energy, and yes, even the race problem-let us join
together in a great fellowship of love and bow down at the feet of Jesus.
Give us this strong determination. In the name and spirit of this Christ, we
pray.
Amen.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V4 #32
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