From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #25 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, January 14 1999 Volume 04 : Number 025 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- rippin it all to shreds! (njc) [evian ] Dead or Alive [evian ] Re: The songs we like (SJC) [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Mo Hippie Metal Shit/rap (NJC) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Dead [catman ] Re: Dead ["M & C Urbanski" ] (NJC) Re[3]: Hippie/Cobain ["John M. Lind" ] Re: Fw: interpret-Passion Play [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Then and Now (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] It's A Beautiful Day (NJC) [Mary Becker ] Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: interpret-Passion Play ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: Mo Hippie Metal Shit/rap (NJC) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: (NJC) Hippie/Cobain [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons)] Re: Mo Hippie Metal Shit/rap (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re[2]: It's Still A Beautiful Day (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] RE: Isn't it unironic (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Cobain/ Hippie [Dreamzvill@aol.com] Re: Offensive Bob =) [Dreamzvill@aol.com] Re: (NJC) alternative, was Cobain [Dreamzvill@aol.com] RE: Rap wasn't invented by a white guy (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Hippie/musical values ["Don Rowe" ] Re: (NJC) alternative, was Cobain [Dreamzvill@aol.com] Re: Isn't it unironic (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Dusty Springfield-WOMAN OF REPUTE [Bounced Message ] Deadhead (SJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: interpreting Passion Play [Bounced Message ] Re: It's a Beautiful (NJC) [Randy Remote ] All Apologies (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Dead (Tom Lehrer Content) ["Don Rowe" ] Re: Dead (Tom Lehrer Content) -Reply [Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: rippin it all to shreds! (njc) > Let's take music that is close to ones heart and make it as trite as we > possibly can because lets face it WE ARE THE AUTHORITY ON EVERYTHING. > LOL!! Loved this post!!! You said it in a nutchell! Evian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:10:36 -0600 From: evian Subject: Dead or Alive LOL, I can't resist... I don't really dig the Dead, but I DO like the 80's formula synth band Dead or Alive!! hehehhehehehehehehehe! (BTW, I am serious! LOL!) Spinnin' right round like a record, babies, Evian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:51:04 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: The songs we like (SJC) On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:17:16 -0800 (PST) davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) wrote: > I've been lurking, but wanted to jump in on this one. > Michael Y is an effective agitator and I've been following > this thread with interest. I agree with those who suggested > that we tend to have an affinity to songs which affected us > in our days of youthful exuberance, idealism, and (perhaps) > naivete. I think it's fair to say that "pop" music has always > been primarily for the youth of its time, and, who knows, > maybe even a reflection of its collective unconscious. And I > think sometimes we tend to remember the music of our youth > in the same idealistic ways in which we remember our first love. > I also believe that we train our ears in those early years, often > developing prejudices for and against certain styles (I'm grateful > for my exposure to jazz, classical, etc. during those years, and > credit my parents). I'm not sure I can define the things that shaped me musically or that my early musical experiences shaped me in such a way that you could easily see the leaps and say - oh that makes sense. My mom played a lot of Pete Fountain clarinet records and also Mitch Miller. She also collected beautiful Christmas music and played it constantly during the holidays. I went to Catholic school and went to more masses than I care to remember, but I did always love the Latin hymns - some of which were really gorgeous. I had no idea what the words meant but the melodies transported me into another world. Does it seem logical, from this background that I would hear the Beatles once and be a gonner? Or that I would love Joni so much (although many of her melodies do approach the beauty of the Latin hymns I so loved)? I have to say that I like the music I like because of the way it makes me *feel*. I don't listen to music in order to think and I really don't think I could ever appreciate music only for the lyrics. If the lyrics were outstanding, but the music was mediocre, and if I could bring myself to even listen to it, I would only feel how unfortunate that the lyrics did not have an equally beautiful melody. I wouldn't revisit that boring (to me!) song just to go over the lyrics. Isn't it really that we like a given piece of music or not because of how it makes us feel? There must be something in good hip-hop that makes Michael Y. feel good, and in Nirvana that makes mariana feel good. Wouldn't most of Joni's melodies make us feel as nice even if the lyrics weren't that great? And if it's really about how music makes us feel, then how can we say that one type of music is better than another? It would be like saying that because I don't like chocolate (NOT!), chocolate is boring or bad or stupid or tasteless. Marian Vienna NPIMH: The Bird Song - Linda Waterfall ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 06:33:35 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Mo Hippie Metal Shit/rap (NJC) - ---------- > From: IVPAUL42@aol.com > To: michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Mo Hippie Metal Shit (NJC) > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 12:58 AM > > In a message dated 1/13/99 11:04:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, > michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: > > << the Beatles were the founders of Heavy Metal cause they were the > first ones to use distorted guitars on "I feel Fine". >> > > Do you mean feedback? I'm not sure what you mean by "distorted." > Paul I John Lennon invented rap with "Give Peace A Chance" Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:03:01 +0000 From: catman Subject: Dead Pat wrote: "I'd be interested to see a 'show of hands' to see how many of you who love Joni also like the dead.." I'd gop as far as to say I actually love some of the dead. - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:22:57 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Dead - ---------- > From: catman > To: jmdl > Subject: Dead > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 8:03 AM > > Pat wrote: > "I'd be interested to see a 'show of hands' to see how many of you who > love > Joni also like the dead.." > I'd gop as far as to say I actually love some of the dead. > I can't stand the dead! I only like the one song -"touch of gray" call me commercialized! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:33:11 -0500 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: (NJC) Re[3]: Hippie/Cobain Bob M. wrote: >Are you aware that in every major radio market they now >have "alternative" radio formats? Yes and I think it's hillarious! Just stop and think about it, even if only in a lingual context, for a minute *alternative* format? *alternative* grammy? The whole point of the use of the word alternative was/is to deviate from the accepted norm. Now it's just bcome yet another wide-rangeing, virtually impossible to define marketing term. John~ NP nothing, how alternative is that? ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:33:57 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Fw: interpret-Passion Play Marilyn said: <> The scriptural text is Luke 19:1-9 if you want to go the source...further to what Marilyn sez... The significance of the story is that Jesus identified Zaccheus as a son of Abraham and worthy of salvation & grace as opposed to society's view of him as a sinner due to his being a tax collector. It meant that *all* were welcome to enter into God's kingdom. Am I the only one who remembers (some of) the little song that went with this Bible story? Zaccheus was a wee little man, A wee little man was he - He climbed up in a sycamore tree, for the Lord he wanted to see... Gee whiz, the stuff we remember... Bob M., celebrating both my 15th anniversary & "Tom Waits Day" NP: Tom Waits "Downtown Train" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:48:27 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Then and Now (NJC) Fred commented: <> Fred, While I totally agree with you, I think one major difference is the accessability to the good stuff. I remember, like Kakki also pointed out, that 60's "Top 40" radio would mix syrupy ballads & instrumentals with heavy metal, The Supremes with The Beatles. So while there was certainly good & bad music on the scene, at least a lot of the good across genres was available FROM THE SAME SOURCE. Same with 70's "AOR/Album-oriented" radio. One could hear Stevie Wonder & Earth, Wind & Fire beside Joni, The Allman Brothers, Elton John, etc. (Although by this time commercial radio was growing more segmented). Nowadays, markets are TOTALLY segmented and fractured. Except for college radio and some creative NPR outlets, you're not going to hear a country song followed by a rock and roll song followed by a rhythm & blues song. It's much more effort, with the help of discussion lists like this one, having to read magazines, word of mouth, etc. It kills me to think that every day great music is being made and I'll NEVER have the chance to listen to it!! Sure, some great music slipped through the cracks in decades past, but it seems like there's a whole lot more that slips through now. Bob M NP: Tom Waits/Bette Midler "I never talk to strangers" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:03:49 -0500 From: Mary Becker Subject: It's A Beautiful Day (NJC) I can't believe you guys are bringing up IABD! First the Sons of Champlin (SP?), now this! My husband (then boyfriend) and his best friend started a record store one summer so they wouldn't have to cut their hair to get summer jobs. We played IABD quite frequently in those days, and were very disappointed they didn't produce more albums. Being from the midwest, we never saw them in concert, so I can't speak to their live performance. But that first album especially, was remarkable. Recently we were listening to that orange sunshine radio on the internet and they were playing one of the more obscure cuts on the first record (not White Bird) and it sounded really good. We have to get our old turntable hooked up to our new system! Then we could bring out some of those old 60's albums with the $3.99 price stickers and really hear some good music! ;-D Enjoying all the debate. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:09:13 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) Mark-n-Travis wrote: > Jand then Jerry wrote: > > > I think, besides the power of the 3 (then 4) great talents converging, their > > contribution was their incredible harmonic blend of voices along with the acoustic > > sound. That was rare, especially in an all male group. > > Wouldn't Simon & Garfunkel also fit into this category? The Sound of > Silence was recorded in 1964 and hit number one in November of 1965. > Although the single version has an electric guitar, a lot of their music > was acoustic and the original version of SoS was acoustic. > They were so strongly identified as a duo that I always thought of them as hippie Everly Brothers (a big compliment.) BTW, going to see Art Garfunkel tomorrow in concert. Opening act: Melanie! Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:18:31 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Cobain/ Hippie John said <> Maybe this is true in your corner of the world, but here in Greenville SC it's amazing how the live music scene has grown. The first year I lived here, 1981, there were no clubs really, the only notable show I recall was seeing The Brains (from Atlanta) in a little bar. Then in the mid/late 80's some small clubs started popping up, more blues and rock, and now there are so many choices it's not a question of *if* a good live show is here, it's *which one* to check out. The most exciting venue is The Handlebar, right around the corner from where I live, a small intimate SMOKE-FREE club that has featured Bruce Cockburn, Dar Williams, Gillian Welch, Koko Taylor, and a ton more. I'm planning on catching Chris Duarte on 01/22. Of course, this part of the country has been growing by leaps and bounds, and the success of Hootie has also spurred on lots of young bands to get out and play. Scenes come and go, and if an area is not vital & growing the local arts scene is probably not going to either. Bob NP: Tom Waits, "Burma Shave" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:20:16 EST From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: Re: interpret-Passion Play You asked... <> I believe the story is that this little man was literally too short to see. He was skeptical about the teachings of this person Jesus. He climbed the sycamore tree to have a better look. Joni eludes to herself as a person of "some position." In those times, tax collectors were usually wealthy and most likely were also of "some position." She examines herself and says that "His love is squandered" and that she sees "how far she's wandered" The little tax man supposedly comes to terms with who he is and how far he's wandered. So, do I think that Joni is making some "born again" statement. Not really. I think it lies more at the discovery that our lives are consumed by "self-ness" and if you stop to look at what Jesus was about it was completely "self-less." If you think about someone loving you completely, unconditionally, with sacrifice (altruism at its best), you may consider that perhaps selfishness makes us unworthy (squandered love). A person could also reflect on this and say, "I see how far I've wandered." Michele NP: Storyville ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:22:01 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) Hippie/Cobain In a message dated 1/14/99 1:36:50 PM !!!First Boot!!!, jml@amweaver.com writes: << Now it's just bcome yet another wide-ranging, virtually impossible to define marketing term. >> Right on, John! Good point. "Alternative" has been one of my favorite sources of comic relief just for the reasons you mentioned! :) Yes, I would really have to say Neil "The Hitchhiker's Friend" Young was really the true Father of Grunge. Or maybe we should say "Godfather Of Grunge". He was one of Cobain's biggest supporters/mourners (listen to "Sleeps With Angels"). I really dig Nirvana, I really dig Bush (the band, not the politician). There's room for everyone! Rock on, people!!! =) Keep the faith! Susan Colleen Crawford ("back to stay!") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:23:59 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: The sweets we like (SJC) In a message dated 1/14/99 5:57:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, M.Russell@iaea.org writes: << It would be like saying that because I don't like chocolate (NOT!), chocolate is boring or bad or stupid or tasteless. >> But Marian, milk chocolate is so banal, and white chocolate is so tasteless and bourgeois ;>) Except for Nestle's Crunch, which I like because it has a very danceable beat. I especially like the chorus: "N-E-S-T-L-E-S; Nestle's makes the very best CHOCoLATE." I think it's about the Second Coming and that just brings tears to my eyes sometimes. Chocolate eaters have feelings, too, you know! And we aren't afraid to show them. I wear my chocolate heart on my sleeve. And those chocolate Mozart thingys are deliciously sophisticated. I don't understand how anyone couldn't like those! Then again, hot chocolate is cool, if it has lots of marshmallows. OK, that's it! Anyone who doesn't like chocolate (and I don't mean those of you who would if your life experience didn't make you allergic to it) GET OFF THIS LIST!!!!! Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:30:57 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: (NJC) Re[3]: Hippie/Cobain "John M. Lind" wrote:Yes and I think it's hillarious! Just stop and think about it, even if only > in a lingual context, for a minute *alternative* format? *alternative* > grammy? The whole point of the use of the word alternative was/is to > deviate from the accepted norm. Now it's just bcome yet another > wide-rangeing, virtually impossible to define marketing term. Yeah. It used to describe what you weren't. Now it describes what you are. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:30:24 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Dead In a message dated 1/14/99 8:05:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << Pat wrote: "I'd be interested to see a 'show of hands' to see how many of you who love, Joni also like the dead." I'd gop as far as to say I actually love some of the dead. >> Colin, Why does it sound like necrophilia when you say it? ;.>) Paul I "Of course, you heard about the necrophiliac who fulfilled his boyhood dream of becoming coroner." -- Tom Lehrer, the great composer and singer of such great songs as "Poisoning Pigeons In the Park" and "The Bomb," a precursor to Randy Newman's "Political Science." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:38:53 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: It's A Beautiful Day (NJC) Mary Becker wrote: > I can't believe you guys are bringing up IABD! First the Sons of Champlin > (SP?), now this! My husband (then boyfriend) and his best friend started a > record store one summer so they wouldn't have to cut their hair to get > summer jobs. We played IABD quite frequently in those days, In our dorm it was IABD and Quicksilver Messenger. And lots of Airplane. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:39:04 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: It's A Beautiful Day (NJC) In a message dated 1/14/99 9:07:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, mjbecker@adelphia.net writes: << they were playing one of the more obscure cuts on the first record (not White Bird) and it sounded really good. >> That most likely would have been "Hot Summer Day" or "Girl With No Eyes." I doubt they'd have played the instrumental "Bombay Calling," and my personal psychedelic favorite, "Time Is" is usually overlooked. Paul I NP : White Bird ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:36:29 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Van Lyrics (SJC) Kakki leaves us with these parting words: Kakki, leaving here for a few days to travel to the birthplace of Nirvana (Why doesn't anyone mention Stone Temple Pilots, too?) Kakki, First off, have a good trip - Second, what a great post putting the Lauryn Hill & Van side by side. Third, no one has mentioned STP because they ripped off Pearl Jam as opposed to Nirvana. I imagine the 1999 SAT's have a question: Bush is to Nirvana as Stone Temple Pilots is to ______________ A. It's A Beautiful Day B. Phish C. Pearl Jam D. Hole Of course, the confusing part of the question is that people will get Bush confused with Hole (sorry to be so offensive this early ;^D) Bob M. NP: Tom Waits, "Tom Traubert's Blues (Four Sheets to the Wind in Copenhagen)" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:41:21 -0500 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Re: (NJC) Re[3]: alternative, was Hippie/Cobain Jerry wrote: >Yeah. It used to describe what you weren't. Now it describes what you are. Exactly. When the "Lolypoploser", as I called it then(I'm much less judgemental now beleive it or not), festival first started out I had a vision of updating Stave Martin's "Non-Conformist Oath": "Repeat after me!: I'm Alternative! {I'm Alternative!} I'm Different! {I'm Different!} I'm Alternative! {I'm Alternative!} I'm Original! {I'm Original!} I'm Alternative! {I'm Alternative!} I Don't listen to 'Corporate Rock'! {I Don't listen to 'Corporate Rock'!} I'm Alternative! {I'm Alternative!} I don't repeat things other people say! {I don't repeat...???} John~ NP "Prelude To Stargazers" Sun Ra Arkestra ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 06:44:33 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Mo Hippie Metal Shit/rap (NJC) Marilyn writes ... >John Lennon invented rap with "Give Peace A Chance" >Marilyn Wait a minute ... I could have sworn that Blondie invented rap ... or maybe it was Aerosmith. ;-) Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:49:59 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: interpret-Passion Play - ---------- > From: MHart16164@aol.com > To: mwyarbro@zzapp.org > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: interpret-Passion Play > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 9:20 AM > > > Joni eludes to herself as a person of > "some position." In those times, tax collectors were usually wealthy and most > likely were also of "some position." She examines herself and says that "His > love is squandered" and that she sees "how far she's wandered" The little tax > man supposedly comes to terms with who he is and how far he's wandered. > > Michele Yes but... The lyrics go... Climb down, climb down he says to me From the middle of unrest they think his LIGHT is squandered But, he sees a stray in the wilderness And I see how far I've wandered.... Now, who's light do "they" think is squandered Zaccehus or Christ's? Obviously Joni relates to the fact that she is not a perfect person in the context of the duality of the song. I am up a sycamore... I (Joni) & I (telling the story from Zaccehus' point of view) According to the other posts then... If Magdalene = ecstasy, Zaccehus= misery & apathy & The crucifixion tragedy. Yes/No? Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:54:00 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Mo Hippie Metal Shit/rap (NJC) - ---------- > From: Don Rowe > To: artwear@ncweb.com > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Mo Hippie Metal Shit/rap (NJC) > Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 9:44 AM > > Marilyn writes ... > >John Lennon invented rap with "Give Peace A Chance" > >Marilyn > > Wait a minute ... I could have sworn that Blondie invented rap ... or > maybe it was Aerosmith. ;-) > > Don Rowe No, No... Listen to it!! "Everybody's talkin' 'bout... All we are saying is give peace a chance" & the rhythm goes along. The others just copied! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:48:04 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) Hippie/Cobain In a message dated 1/14/99 9:25:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, Dreamzvill@aol.com writes: << << Now it's just become yet another wide-ranging, virtually impossible to define marketing term. >> Right on, John! Good point. "Alternative" has been one of my favorite sources of comic relief just for the reasons you mentioned! :) Yes, I would really have to say Neil "The Hitchhiker's Friend" Young was really the true Father of Grunge. Or maybe we should say "Godfather Of Grunge". >> When I first started hearing Neil Young and Crosby and the boys, and Joni, and James and Jimi and Janis and Jerry and Judy and Joan and John in a format all mixed up with Stevie and Bruce and Gil-Scott and Ornette, it was on a station that called itself Progressive Rock." I guess that means "alternative" is Regressive? Paul I In an odd little comedy zone today NP: "Hot Summer Day," IABD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:10:10 -0800 (PST) From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons) Subject: Fwd: Returned mail: User unknown - --WebTV-Mail-32238539-270 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit - --WebTV-Mail-32238539-270 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-105.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.95) by postoffice-261.iap.bryant.webtv.net; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:15:47 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from localhost (localhost) by mailsorter-105.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.gso.08Dec97) with internal id CAA21940; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:15:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:15:47 -0800 (PST) From: Post Office Message-Id: <199901141015.CAA21940@mailsorter-105.bryant.webtv.net> To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="CAA21940.916308947/mailsorter-105.bryant.webtv.net" Subject: Returned mail: User unknown Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) This is a MIME-encapsulated message - --CAA21940.916308947/mailsorter-105.bryant.webtv.net The original message was received at Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:15:42 -0800 (PST) from mailtod-262.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.199.239] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- jmdl@smoe.org ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to mail.smoe.org.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 ... User unknown 550 jmdl@smoe.org... User unknown - --CAA21940.916308947/mailsorter-105.bryant.webtv.net Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; mailsorter-105.bryant.webtv.net Received-From-MTA: DNS; mailtod-262.iap.bryant.webtv.net Arrival-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:15:42 -0800 (PST) Final-Recipient: RFC822; jmdl@smoe.org Action: failed Status: 5.1.1 Remote-MTA: DNS; mail.smoe.org Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 ... User unknown Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:15:47 -0800 (PST) - --CAA21940.916308947/mailsorter-105.bryant.webtv.net Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from mailtod-262.iap.bryant.webtv.net (mailtod-262.iap.bryant.webtv.net [209.240.199.239]) by mailsorter-105.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.gso.08Dec97) with ESMTP id CAA21936; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:15:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from production@localhost) by mailtod-262.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/mt.gso.26Feb98) id CAA03485; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:15:41 -0800 (PST) X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAjD0EyjGat5/3NbPdXuMJ4RJPCawCFQCO6y8fYgub0wlMgAAuH11xLvhSTw== From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:15:41 -0800 (PST) To: jmdl@smoe.org Subject: Passion Play interpetation Message-ID: <29471-369DC3CD-437@mailtod-262.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) How cool!!! This is one of my fav's. I would have jumped in sooner but I get the bulk delivery. I think many have basically the same read I tend to take ie Bob, Marilyn, Michele. The points that I want to add are that I really think "ecstacy" is a dual referance. You see the trembling that Magdaline was doing could have also been because Jesus cast 7 demons out of her! So Joni, that master of words she is, may have been saying Magdaline was in ecstasy out of overwhelmed joy for being free of her demons and/or it could have been that Magdaline was still in the midst of spiritual conflict. The word is a definition for both conditions. I have pretty much the same take on Zaccheus but I don't think he was the shmuck that he was jugded to be simply by association. I get the drift it was a tremedously heavy burden to his soul to be respected like a mailman respects an angry pitbull ( a sinner of some position). His misery I think was coming out of being successful but empty and wrongly judged. The point I think being made was in that he saw that he needed more than money to be at peace with and within himself. (he offered 4 times any overcharge he had done----just adding for clarification sake, humbly) The apathy is, like already pointed out so well by the rest of you, the opposite side of Zaccheus' story of the attitudes of the one's judging him while ignoring their own sinfulness. Pride was directing the masses to envy and cast critical judgements of Zaccheus' worthiness for Jesus to even bother with (they think His light is squandered). Jesus doesn't care to pressure anyone that doesn't want to come humbly......so they grow apathetic. The tragedy aspect, you might even say the fourth personality type, was/is so threatened by the emotional and spiritual freeing Jesus was offering that they create a buzz of accusations that eventually kill Him. "Devinely barren, wickedly wise" were / are the legalists of the day that study their hinies off to impress people and gain positions of power in the church. They're the ultra religious folk that become so consumed with zeroing in on the letter of the law (usually out of guilt or pride they can't shake) and necessary public sacrfice & appearance (medicating their wounds) that they try to kill the freedom others enjoy. For the "who're gonna get to do the dirty work when all the slaves are free?" , I think that encompasses all aspects of Jesus' ministry. He broke down the power play that became so ingrained in everyone's mindset, that their work was going to gain God's acceptance and peace, no one had a leg to stand on anymore.....apart from Jesus. With no power structure to use as leverage to oppress the weak, meek, humble etc.,that understood what Christ had done they were/are free from others' emotional manipulations. Forgive my rambling, It's 2 AM Penny - --CAA21940.916308947/mailsorter-105.bryant.webtv.net-- - --WebTV-Mail-32238539-270-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:07:53 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Mo Hippie Metal Shit/rap (NJC) In a message dated 1/14/99 10:01:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, artwear@ncweb.com writes: << No, No... Listen to it!! "Everybody's talkin' 'bout... All we are saying is give peace a chance" & the rhythm goes along. The others just copied! Marilyn >> "Everybody's talkin' about bagism, fagism, this-ism, that-ism" Marilyn, you're absolutely right. Lennon invented rap, was the first to record feedback, first man to write a hit feminist song, the list goes on. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:18:08 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: It's Still A Beautiful Day (NJC) In a message dated 1/14/99 9:07:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, mjbecker@adelphia.net writes: << they were playing one of the more obscure cuts on the first record (not White Bird) and it sounded really good. >> Then Paul added: <> But there was nothing like "Wasted Union Blues" to make me want to yank the needle off the record!! Bob M. NP: TW, Invitation to the Blues ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:40:38 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Isn't it unironic (NJC) Clearly I'm not communicating very well. I really, truly, genuinely, sincerely am interested in trying to understand Van Morrison's genius. Believe it or not, my youth doesn't compel me to be ironic. My requests for assistance were not sarcastic. I present my interpretation, not as an insult, but as a genuine request for YOUR interpretations, so I can LEARN. Unfortunately only one person seems interested in taking me seriously. Kakki wrote: <<>> Kakki, I'd really prefer that you just try to take my request at face value. I AM NOT DOING THIS TO INSULT VAN MORRISON OR HIS FANS. (I apologize for shouting). The lyrics I cited as the extreme example of what doesn't work for me were a request for an extreme example of what *does* work for you. NOT AN INSULT. I am not judging the entirety of Van Morrison's canon based on four lines. *To the contrary,* I am assuming that better work is out there and asking for the experts to show me where it might be. To explain how I'm feeling right now, let's turn the tables. If you sent me a post like this: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michael-- I can't seem to get what's so bomb (OK, so you'd never use that word :-) ) or great about Lauryn Hill. Her lyrics just seem so Hallmark to me. I mean, look at these: "Now the skies could fall Not even if my boss should call The world itself seems so very small 'Cause nothing even matters at all" "Nothing even matters" (repeat 4 times) "See I don't need no alcohol Your love makes me feel ten feet tall Without it I'd go through withdrawal 'Cause nothing even matters at all" I respect your opinion, so I thought maybe you could tell me which lyrics you like. I'd really like to get in Lauryn Hill, and I'd appreciate any help you could give me. Please? Thanks-- - --JMDLer NP: Grateful Hippies, _Shit in the Wind_ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (humor added to lighten the mood) Now, I could respond by saying: You think Lauryn's banal? Look at Van Morrison. "Oh the water. Oh oh the water. Oh the water." Give me a break!! But I wouldn't. I would ASSUME you were being genuine, and instead give you these, which I do now: "Unsure of what the balance held I touched my belly overwhelmed By what I had been chosen to perform But then an angel came one day Told me to kneel down and pray For unto me a man-child would be born ... How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before" I love the weight of these lines, and how they reinterpret cliched phrases (especially the last line) to newly intense meaning about her love for her child. Aside from the presumptuous Virgin Mary comparison, I find the lyrics evocative of the expectation of pregnancy, and appreciate the skill exemplified in the AAB CCB rhyme scheme, which is one of the most creative I've ever seen in a rock song. I hope this helps. Just ask if you want to talk about it some more. [end of demo] So that's what I'm asking for. I don't understand what's so threatening about it. I just want the honest opinions of a Van fan. I have taken the belief that different musical opinions are beautiful things to be shared. Won't you too? - --Michael NP: Elvis Presley, _Elvis' Golden Records_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:02:53 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Cobain/ Hippie <> Bob- Let me know how Chris Duarte is! I hear alot about him from the other list I'm on - Texasflood (the Stevie Ray Vaughan list). Interestingly enough, I was commenting on a Kurt Cobain thread on both the joni and SRV lists concurrently! =) Cheers, Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:08:35 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Offensive Bob =) Bob M. said: ..."sorry to be so offensive this early in the day..." Bob! No apologies necessary! As a matter of fact, we will "hold *you* to it"!!! Thanks for the laugh!!!! =) Cheers, Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:11:53 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) alternative, was Cobain <> I always dug Kurt's T-shirt that said: "Corporate Rock Whores" Loved his sense of humor! =) Cheers, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:24:31 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Rap wasn't invented by a white guy (NJC) Marilyn wrote: <<>> Even if he was the first person to talk in rhythm over a recorded song (a point with which some Dylan fans would disagree, I'm sure), John Lennon definitely did not invent rap. The black DJs in the ghettos of New York who *did* invent rap weren't listening to Lennon and thinking "Hey man, we can do that shit." Instead, they were throwing impromptu parties outside where they would basically try to trick their friends into dancing to music they would normally hate, by isolating the bass line (for example) of an Aerosmith song or something, then making up rhymes on the spot to recite over the beats. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:23:22 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Art Garfunkel/Melanie (NJC) In a message dated 1/14/99 2:10:51 PM !!!First Boot!!!, notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu writes: << going to see Art Garfunkel tomorrow in concert. Opening act: Melanie! >> Jerry! Please let us know how the show is! I'm so happy to hear both Art and Melanie are still out there gigging!!! By the way, I'm so glad to be back - I missed you! Cheers, Susan Colleen Crawford ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:22:38 -0500 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Re: (NJC) alternative, was Cobain At 11:11 AM 1/14/99 EST, Susan wrote: > >I always dug Kurt's T-shirt that said: > >"Corporate Rock Whores" > >Loved his sense of humor! =) I also love the story of The Dead Kennedys performance at the BAMmies. I think it was the BAMmies. It was definatley some kind of showcase around 1980/'81. Anyway, They come out in black pants and black button down shirts with big "S"'s spray painted in green on the front of the shirts. They play the first couple of bars of the song they're supposed to play on the show, stop, pull skinny green ties from over their shoulders(turning the "S" into "$") and play "My Sharona". John~ NP "The Paladium" Lenny Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:29:18 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Hippie/musical values John asks -- >I have to ask. What exactly are your values with regards to music? What qualities do you require >in order to deem something good or bad? > >jOhn > Personally, I've always found fun-rockin' songs artistically superior to rockin'-fun songs. Kind of a fun = good equation. And of course it's, like, got to have a beat, you know, so you can dance to it. ;-) Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:47:06 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) alternative, was Cobain In a message dated 1/14/99 4:29:49 PM !!!First Boot!!!, jml@amweaver.com writes: << hey play the first couple of bars of the song they're supposed to play on the show, stop, pull skinny green ties from over their shoulders(turning the "S" into "$") and play "My Sharona". >> LOL!!!! Laughing makes everythang so much *better*!!! I got a challenging day before me....thanks, John!!! Cheers, Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:13:10 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Isn't it unironic (NJC) I'm not going to re-quote Michael's entire post here - those who have read it got the gist. To Michael - all I can say is that I was being sincere. I spent some time I didn't have responding three times regarding my thoughts on Van. You still came back to me indicating that you did not understand what I or others found great in him. I thought lining up variations of lyrics of the people we love, side-by-side, would illustrate that they both have simple lyrics that could be thought of as banal, and they both have lyrics that can blow your mind (as least they do for me). Sorry, but this is the last hoop I'm going to jump through on this issue. Now I'm confused as to what you perceive as sincerity. How do you think I feel? You attack my music, you attack my opinions, you attack my method of supporting my opinions and then finally, you top it off by questioning my sincerity and accusing me of insulting you. It's a bit tyrannical - I'm "damned" no matter what. Perhaps a more "acceptable" person will explain Van's lyrics in a way that you will approve of. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:33:25 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Dusty Springfield-WOMAN OF REPUTE From: "Gene Mock" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:32:33 -0800 For all you Dusty Springfield fans. Not everyone is going to like the music that I like, nor is everyone gong to like the music you like. Music is a personal experience of each individual, red, blue, black, green, gay, straight, red-neck. Whatever. One thing for sure, the people on the JMDL all relate to music and this is the thread that binds us. The Dead, are not exceptionally great musicians. But the vibes, the GOOOOOOD vibes that one gets at their concerts I've never felt anywhere where else before. Maybe I was a little stoned, but so what. No one walks away from a Dead concert without a smile on their face, and that's neat. Anyway for what's it worth thanks for reading Gene http://www.isd.net/mbayly/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:32:25 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Deadhead (SJC) From: "Alan Parsons" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:18:59 -0600 Okay, I admit it. I'm a Dead fan. No, not a Deadhead. I've never been to a concert. I own a handful of albums...well CDs. But I still love the Dead. My all time favorite song is Uncle John's Band, which, incidentally, was also the first I heard. Casey Jones took on a new meaning driving late one night with some friends after a night of partying. We weren't stoned or drunk, just having too much fun, when I stopped for no reason on a railroad crossing to watch the light on the tracks get bigger. Funny, I didn't realize it was a train, until my friend said "Alan, is that a train?" and I quickly drove off the track and stopped to watch it go by. When I was looking for something missing, my senior year of high school (my GOD, that was only five years ago!), I used to relate to the spirituality of songs like "St. Stephen," which I thought I understood (I still don't, although it makes some sense to me.) I'm fascinated and sometimes long for the romance of the Deadhead culture. I know I certainly grew up in the wrong decade. Does this surprise anyone? Probably not. Time and again we've proven that the tastes of people on this list vary. My personal tastes rang from Neil Young to Bob Marley to Willie Nelson to, of course, Joni. A wide array, and just scratching the surface. But what do they have in common (besides the drug & sex culture associated with it)? They are all speaking, to me, about the importance of personal freedom and knowledge of complete oneself over reliance on the government or society to do it for you. I realize an argument can be made that most music, save pure dance music, is trying the achieve the same aim, but even if the argument was sound, most aren't as overt as the music I'm directly speaking of. To me, the music of the Dead represents the attitude that we need to throw off the trappings of society and embrace ourselves before we can move on. Don't get me wrong, I'm not missing the obvious drug references, but even the drug culture is just an extension of that philosophy. I really don't think what the Dead is saying is much different than what Joni says, except it is said differently. And of course Joni has many more songs that deal with intimate feelings of interpersonal relationships. "California," or instance, to me talks about a longing to get someplace where everything was good. It speaks of California as an almost perfect place, a place she yearns for. But she never gets there. Why? Because it doesn't exist. She's searching, through France, Greece and Spain, but even though she knows where it is, she can't find it.. She has this picture in her mind of what and where it is, but it's only in her mind. California represents the dream each of us has, the dream that is ultimately the whole point of life. (I'm not saying this is what Joni meant, of course. She has long said that most people don't understand her songs, and I don't pretend to be the end all interpreter of her thoughts and feelings. This is what it says to ME, coming in 25 years after she wrote it.) "Truckin'" says the same thing, just in different words. Always on the road, always searching, never really finding what you're looking for, maybe not even sure what it is. The style is very different, and it's okay not to like the style. I just don't see how the two are so different in theme. I see lyrical, musical, allegorical and poetical differences, just I see the same theme. That's a little more than 2 cents. :) Alan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:33:57 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: interpreting Passion Play Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:48:32 -0800 From: pmeyer I had been listening a lot to this song, trying to interpret it as best I could, and obsessing about whether the delurk to ask about it. Thanks so much to all those who are discussing it! Perfect timing! Your insights are much appreciated. As sometimes happens with Joni's songs, this one won't leave my mind now for several days running. Paul M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:39:05 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: It's a Beautiful (NJC) I guess I was just being a smartass. You're right about paying your money and getting a crappy show, you don't immediately forget it. Hopefully they learned their lesson, too. David LaFlamme has such an incredible touch on the violin. RR Steve Garrison wrote: > I assure you that's not what I meant. What I meant was that on the one > occasion I saw them (spring of 1970) they were too debilitated to play, and > apparently multiplied the volume to compensate. Presumably there were IABD > shows, perhaps a majority of them, which were better, I'm not the one to > say. But when you happen to be present for a real stinker, it stays with > you. > > I'm not sure what gave you the impression that laser shows and dry ice are > my paragon of performance style, but you are mistaken. But it IS a basic > requirement of mine that some music take place. Nothing musical transpired > on that afternoon, I'm afraid. I'm glad to hear they're doing better these > days. I still like several of their tunes. Steve > ---------- > >If you mean there were no smoke and lasers and people were not > >jumping around in matching sequend (sp?) suits, then, yes, it was a shitty > >concert. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:46:50 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: All Apologies (NJC) The written word has reared its inadequate head again, and I've placed myself in the midst of a maelstrom of a misunderstanding. My sincere apologies to all involved. I'll leave you all to pleasant discussion now. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:51:14 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Dead (Tom Lehrer Content) Oh my god! Somebody who knows the classic Tom Lehrer ... my parents bought his records ("An Evening Wasted ...") 'under the counter' back in the wayback when his material was in violation of the Texas blue laws -- no kidding. Today his stuff is tame, but it was the height of scandal and conroversy once upon a time. Don Rowe (now humming "The Vatican Rag" in anticipation of John Paul's visit to St. Louis later this month) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:01:26 -0800 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Re: Dead (Tom Lehrer Content) -Reply The long-suffering Signe knows her periodic table from listening to Tom Lehrer. As for controversy: "Vatican Rag" was a hoot, but not-so-mainstream back then. Great song. >>> "Don Rowe" 01/14/99 09:51am >>> Oh my god! Somebody who knows the classic Tom Lehrer ... my parents bought his records ("An Evening Wasted ...") 'under the counter' back in the wayback when his material was in violation of the Texas blue laws - -- no kidding. Today his stuff is tame, but it was the height of scandal and conroversy once upon a time. Don Rowe (now humming "The Vatican Rag" in anticipation of John Paul's visit to St. Louis later this month) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:07:05 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Misunderstandings Hey everyone.... Judging from his tone, it sounds like Michael is going off in some corner to eat worms..... Mikey - can we have some too??? (Maybe they're gummi worms :) Hey! Everyone has a right to be as real as they wanna be here, and we'll love 'em anyway! I mean, lookit Bob M.! He was "offensive" this morning, and that was OK too! :) Have a great day, Michael.... All the love, Susan Colleen Crawford ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #25 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! 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