From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #23
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 13 1999 Volume 04 : Number 023
The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes
by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery
username: jimdle password: siquomb
-------
The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Re: Hippie/Cobain ["John Villasana" ]
Re: Hole ["John Villasana" ]
Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [philipf@tinet.ie]
Re: Feathered Canyons and Cryptic Lyrics [philipf@tinet.ie]
Re: Grateful Dead (SJC) [Ginamu@aol.com]
Re: Courtney Love (njc) [Ginamu@aol.com]
Prayers and Comforting Wally [DKasc13293@aol.com]
Courtney Love (sjc) [Ginamu@aol.com]
Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas [Jerry Notaro ]
Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [MHart16164@aol.com]
interpret-Passion Play ["M & C Urbanski" ]
Grateful Dead (SJC) [Kevin_E_Licht@email.whirlpool.com]
Re: jonilove [klempner@email.unc.edu (Mark Klempner)]
Joni on DVD!! Now, I'll buy a DVD player. ["Leong, Dennis" ]
RE: interpret-Passion Play ["Wally Kairuz" ]
RE: Grateful Dead (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ]
RE: Cryptic Lyrics (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ]
Re: interpret-Passion Play [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re: interpret-Passion Play ["Don Rowe" ]
Re: Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain ["John Villasana" ]
Re: NJC ["John Villasana" ]
Re: Hippie/Cobain [Jerry Notaro ]
Re: NJC (still njc) ["Don Rowe" ]
Re[4]: Hippie/Cobain [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
RE: NJC (still njc) [Michael Yarbrough ]
NJC: The Dead [Kate Tarasenko ]
Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [Randy Remote ]
Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ]
RE: Van Lyrics (SJC) [Michael Yarbrough ]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:42:43 -0600
From: "John Villasana"
Subject: Re: Hippie/Cobain
OK
Marilune said:
Just when and how did they do that? I have heard this statement before. It's not clear to me who
they've influenced. I don't see a lot of Cobain wannabes out there, musical or otherwise. I can
see how this could be said about Robert Plant, or Jimi Hendrix who could truly be called
prototypical.
Didn't say there was anything wrong with her being a media gal. I was making the point that she is
being praised as being some sort of musical vanguard, or pop genius, while she hasn't really
produced anything substantial. All the media in the world shouldn't change that. This goes back to
my original statement that a lot of 90's stars are merely contrivances, and don't stand up when
compared to the talent or product if you will, of the 60/70/80's. By the way, whats so strong
about her? Anybody can spit out their opinions. I don't know if it makes you strong. It's strong
if you can defend your opinions.
jOhn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:53:02 -0600
From: "John Villasana"
Subject: Re: Hole
Evian wrote:
I would agree. What I have heard of the album sounds very good. My point was, that it had less to
do with the artist "Hole", than a very talented and professional production team. My complaint
(again), was with respect to 90's stardom vs Hippie Shit et al. I was saying that it was hard for
me to respect what has been propped up as pop genius or whatever, when what I see is corporate
contrivance on a massive scale. Maybe I'm being idealistic here, but if were gonna give an artist
credit for being great, or important, or icon status, or whatever, then they should at least have
something to do with it besides being a media darling.
jOhn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:59:16 -0000
From: philipf@tinet.ie
Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC)
- -----Original Message-----
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
><< Now "It's A Beautiful Day." THAT was a group that knew how to do a
shitty
> concert. >>
>So I've heard, but what a WONDERFUL studio album their self-titled first LP
>was!
>Paul I
That record also had a beautiful sleeve design showing a girl
against a blue sky with wispy clouds. Ah yes those fabulous
60's - even the record covers were great.
Philip
NP Kid Loco - A Grand Love Story
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:01:05 -0000
From: philipf@tinet.ie
Subject: Re: Feathered Canyons and Cryptic Lyrics
- -----Original Message-----
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
> If anyone else has had a revelatory moment in which they saw something in
a
>new way and suddenly understood a Joni lyric (like listening to the
rustling
>of the arbutus trees sounding like applause), how about sharing it with us.
>
>Paul I
At a concert I was at Joni said the inspiration for the arbustus
tree line comes from Vancouver. Apparently there is a street
in that city which is lined with misshapen arbutus trees which
grow outwards, making things difficult for pedestrians and for
people parking cars. It sounded so funny - the wilderness
encroaching on the city.
Philip
NP Hits of the 60's
(Not really - only joking)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:31:08 EST
From: Ginamu@aol.com
Subject: Re: Grateful Dead (SJC)
In a message dated 1/13/99 12:06:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com
writes:
> Well, Gina, just because YOU don't understand them (and from your attitude I
> have to say you probably didn't give them much thought) doesn't mean they
> don't make sense.
Ripple is a very pretty song, Paul. You don't have to convince me. I didn't
mean to be so hard on the Dead. I guess I just feel that there are so many
more brilliant bands and artists who've not received the type of attention
that the Dead have and perhaps are more deserving. And by the way, Paul, I am
fairly familiar with many Dead songs and their lyrics. I still maintain that
you can't use them as examples of great songwriting. The Dead may be many good
things to many people but that doesn't make them great songwriters. I think I
recall that the Robert Hunter songs were pretty nice and then it all went
downhill after that. You may soon be correcting me on this. Actually, I'm
curious as to when RH left off as the their lyricist. Did he write most or all
of the songs up to a certain time? Again, I was just expressing my opinion and
I did say some nice things about their earlier work, which I hear in regular
rotation on my favorite radio station and always enjoy. I always, always pay
attention to lyrics! So please don't assume that I am just narrow minded and
that I feel like slagging the Dead this week. I almost always like SOMETHING
by any band or artist of some merit, including the Dead, but great songwriting
was not their strength. I understand the meaning of many of their songs. I'm
not that simple! It's just that how I arrived at the meaning just didn't
always seem worth the effort.
Keep on truckin' !
Gina
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:34:18 EST
From: Ginamu@aol.com
Subject: Re: Courtney Love (njc)
In a message dated 1/13/99 1:13:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes:
> Again, this is a tit-for-tat
> debate about "true artistry". Yes, Courtney Love ain't no Joni, but
> does everything we listen to have to measure up to the standard of her
> music? Hell, IMO, CELEBRITY SKIN supersedes TTT in my albums
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:36:27 EST
From: DKasc13293@aol.com
Subject: Prayers and Comforting Wally
If any of you have wandered over to the homepage this morning you'll find the
saddening news of the results of Wally's recent operation.
I encourage everyone to E-mail Wally. He's a really nice guy, given some bad
news.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:37:16 EST
From: Ginamu@aol.com
Subject: Courtney Love (sjc)
> Again, this is a tit-for-tat
> debate about "true artistry". Yes, Courtney Love ain't no Joni, but
> does everything we listen to have to measure up to the standard of her
> music?
Thank you for saying this. It is so true. I am very guilty of this recently in
my reactions to the Grateful Dead's lyrics. Joni has spoiled us for most other
songwriters!
Gina
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:34:08 -0400
From: Jerry Notaro
Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas
MHart16164@aol.com wrote:
> P.S. I'm a straight girl that likes Joni Mitchell and I'm not sure what that
> means!
It means that Joni appeals to everyone, male of female, straight or gay, young
or old, as this list has proven over and over again. It is a testament to her
genius, and the universality of her music and lyrics.
Jerry
np: Vonda Shepard - Don't Walk Away, Renee
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:39:59 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain
Marilune said:
Then John said:
<>
John, Are you aware that in every major radio market they now have
"alternative" radio formats? Nirvana almost single-handedly opened up
this format - when "Nevermind" sold 12 million copies, the powers that
be decided that there was gold in that there teen angst and these
radio stations started popping up everywhere. It wasn't long before
the imitators came out, most notably Bush who used the same stop/start
- loud/quiet song structures. Others that come to mind: Sponge, Our
Lady Peace, I'm sure there's a ton more.
Then the real avalanche began - now that there were vehicles to get
their music on the radio, bands who had been playing "alternative"
rock began to get noticed; Soundgarden, The Meat Puppets, even XTC (I
remember hearing "Senses Working Overtime" on a radio station in
Greenville SC and thinking how cool that was - of course, when I would
call in and request Sonic Youth I'd just get hung up on.)
Anyway, IMO, none of this 90's wave (which like the aforementioned rap
music has produced a lot of cruddy stuff) of rock would have happened
without Kurt & the boys...interestingly enough, The Foo Fighters with
ex-Nirvana drummer Dave Grohl rock just as hard and true, making me
wonder who was REALLY pulling the strings on Nirvana's sound...
Bob M. in SC
NP: Van Halen, "Sinner's Swing"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:03:06 EST
From: MHart16164@aol.com
Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC)
You said...
>So I've heard, but what a WONDERFUL studio album their self-titled first LP
>was!
>Paul I
That record also had a beautiful sleeve design showing a girl
against a blue sky with wispy clouds. Ah yes those fabulous
60's - even the record covers were great.>>
I loved this album! White Bird was one of those songs that has always "moved
me." The violin always sounds so sweet and especially in that song. Hippie
Shit or not, I like most of the 60's stuff.
Michele
NP: Seal--Human Being
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:36:46 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: interpret-Passion Play
Along with the cryptic theme...recently flying to Arizona, I was pointing
out to my husband the ice cream castles and feathered canyons that were in
the clouds.
Now, this has been a big discussion between my husband & I: Passion Play-
he doesn't understand the song. What does it mean...
"Enter the multitudes
In Exxon blue
In radiation rose
Ecstasy
Now you tell me
Who're you gonna get to do the dirty work
When all the slaves are free...Misery...Apathy...Tragedy"
When I first listened, I was trying to figure out if she was asking that
question to God/Jesus or Satan. When I read the lyrics I figured she was
addressing Ecstasy, Misery, Apathy & Tragedy directly. Tragedy...who are
you (tragedy) going to get?
Enter the multitudes... exxon blue...radiation rose is this after a nuke
blast?
The obvious theme is the life of Christ but, what does the rest of it
around the theme mean?
I would really appreciate everyone's & anyone's interpretation (So would my
husband)!!
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:50:31 -0500
From: Kevin_E_Licht@email.whirlpool.com
Subject: Grateful Dead (SJC)
Just wanted to count myself as one who tremendously enjoys Joni AND
the Grateful Dead. In fact I listen to these two artists more than all
others combined, no doubt. I attended several Dead shows in the late
80's and 90's (unfortunately my last show was the ill-fated gate
crashing incident at Deer Creek in Indy) so I can attest to the magic
that occurred at most every show. I too appreciated the fact that the
band wasn't jumping around like crazy and that every show was
different. You never knew what song was around the bend. Nowadays, I
hit Furthur Festival and Ratdog (Bobby Weir's band) shows when I can,
and was lucky enough to catch Joni three times in '98 (Seattle, Indy)!
The Dead were a phenomenon that you either get or don't get, I guess.
But I think it's some of the most honest, diverse, inspiring and
feel-good music out there.
Kevin
np NPR
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:06:21 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: klempner@email.unc.edu (Mark Klempner)
Subject: Re: jonilove
No--go for it! I'll cc this to the JMDL.--Mark K.
> hi mark,
> actually your perceptiveness (is that a word?) surprises me... *G* do you mind if I make your
> question, and my response, public? pat
> On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:47:55 Mark Klempner wrote individually to P. Henry:
> >Hi Pat. OK, a private question: did you ever think of giving her a
> >backrub, stealing a kiss, asking her out? I know you were really young,
> >so I understand if you were too mesmerized. Was she totally the untouchable
> >Goddess? But it sounds like you had a relaxed connection with some laughs
> >and fun in it. So how did you handle it?
> >
> >Just curious--so I'll be prepared for ????
> >
> >Mark
> >
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:10:08 -0600
From: "Leong, Dennis"
Subject: Joni on DVD!! Now, I'll buy a DVD player.
From alt.video.dvd:
Joni Mitchell:Painting With Words & Music (DVD/AC3) ID5515ERDVD $24.99
Rated:
NR IED:Image DVD 1998 98 min. UPC#014381551525 Pop & Rock Dealer prebook
cutoff date: 01/26/99 Street Date: 03/16/99 Features: AC3/REG0 Joni
Mitchell,
the Queen of folk rock, performs for an intimate audience on the Warner
Brothers lot in Los Angeles. This concert is classic Joni Mitchell, and her
repertoire here covers the complete arc of her career. With a stage backdrop
of her own paintings, this program gives a unique insight into the talents
and life of Joni Mitchell. Songs: Tiger Bones, Big Yellow Taxi, Just Like
This Train, Night Ride Home, Crazy Cries of Love, Harry's House, Black Crow,
Guitar Strumming 1 & 2, Amelia, Hejira, Sex Kills, The Magdelene Laundries,
Moon at the Window, Guitar Tuning, Facelift, Why Do Fools Fall in Love?,
Trouble Man, Nothing Can Be Done, Song for Sharon, Woodstock, Dream Land.
English:5.1 Surround.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:48:23 -0800
From: Leslie Mixon
Subject: Wally's Surgery
This is not the report I was hoping to post:
Wally came through yesterday without any surgical complications, but the
end result, unfortunately, wasn't the outcome we'd hoped for.
Jim (Wally's best friend) talked to Wally's disappointed surgeon just
after the operation and reported that he'd found evidence of new cancer
cells in Wally's pelvis that were too small to show up on the CT scan.
Although these tumors are mostly very small
and aren't showing up in any vital organs, it's unlikely that they could
all be removed surgically without missing some of them. So it looks like
a surgical cure isn't an option any more.
Wally's not in as much pain as he was the last time around, and we're
thankful for that (although he still needs morphine to control the pain
this soon after surgery). Since it was a shorter, less invasive
procedure, he probably won't be staying at the hospital as long as
expected, and will come to stay with Jim again for a while to recuperate
before going home.
The bad news, of course, is that we're moving into a period of
uncertainty. The next course of action will be more chemotherapy, which
I'm told is enough to control the advance of the disease in some
patients. The last time Wally had chemo, the results were encouraging so
we're hoping that another course, probably administered in a way that
allows for better results with fewer side effects, will help to keep the
disease at bay.
Although he's often groggy from the painkillers, our friend is often
quite lucid and seems to be adopting a stoical attitude toward his
situation at this point. He's been through a lot already, and I think
that attitude could help him deal with these new challenges. His General
Practitioner came in today and mentioned how depressed he felt after
talking to the surgeon; Wally remarked later that he thought his doctor
was "more depressed than I am."
You can send emails to Wally care of Jim (TruDelusns@aol.com) or if you
would like to mail a card and/or a gift you can send them care of me at:
P. O Box 2775, Santa Cruz, CA 95063. I will be visiting Wally often
and I hope to entice him into a game of Scrabble!
Leslie Mixon
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:36:03 -0300
From: "Wally Kairuz"
Subject: RE: interpret-Passion Play
This song too seems to deal with the second coming of Christ which,
according to the Bible, will occur after the reign of the Beast, a time of
corruption and destruction. The world as we know it will end in several
stages[ the sea will turn red, there'll be plagues, each child will turn
against his/her parent, etc.]. Joni is probably associating these final
confrontations and waves of destruction with corporate excesses and nuclear
disasters, hence the crowds in radiation rose and the question about the
slaves.
WallyK
>
>The obvious theme is the life of Christ but, what does the rest of it
>around the theme mean?
>
>I would really appreciate everyone's & anyone's interpretation (So would my
>husband)!!
>
>Marilyn
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:46:06 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: Grateful Dead (NJC)
Thanks to Paul for this nice post. The lyrics he quoted *are*
pretty nice.
These in particular struck me as almost gospel in character:
<<>>
I'm wondering if gr8ful dave or any other GD experts out there
would like to add their appreciation pieces to the thread?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:53:26 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: Cryptic Lyrics (NJC)
Kakki wrote about Van Morrison:
<<< Just to read his lyrics alone, without the music, is a poetic
feast.>>>
I was listening to _Moondance_ on the way into work today and
thought that I might be able to be convinced of his musical
superiority but that his lyrics were just way too banal for special
recognition. Can any Van fans be a little more specific about
which lyrics they like and why? At the moment I'm a bit
mystified and would appreciate additional insight.
- --Michael
NP: _Moondance_
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:16:31 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re: interpret-Passion Play
Marilyn asked:
<>
Marilyn,
Further to my previous comments, I think she's presenting Ecstasy,
Misery, Apathy, & Tragedy as a cycle, much like she presents
"Artifice, Brutality, & innocence" as a cycle in "The Three Great
Stimulants".
Ecstasy becomes Misery in time (this may be referencing man's fall
from grace) - if no change is affected, if no one cares (Apathy), then
Tragedy results because people become slaves either to oppressive
government or to oppressive Corporations.
I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but I think it *is*
significant that she orders the 4 words that way:
1. Ecstasy
2. Misery
3. Apathy
4. Tragedy
Almost like a mini-song within the piece...what a song! What a
songwriter!!
Bob
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:38:00 PST
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: Re: interpret-Passion Play
>"Enter the multitudes
>In Exxon blue
>In radiation rose
>Ecstasy
>Now you tell me
>Who're you gonna get to do the dirty work
>When all the slaves are free...Misery...Apathy...Tragedy"
Oh I do enjoy a good Joni Challenge. I've intentionally ignored the
other responses until I've had my shot at it, so forgive me if this
seems repetitive.
I think the song title is the first clue -- Passion Play -- staged by a
classical Greek theatre. 'The multitudes' entering are the Chorus, cast
in a faceless corporate 'Exxon blue'. Now here's where it gets
interesting. I see one of two angles on the next line ... depending on
if you read 'rose' as a noun (color) or a verb (rose up). Given Joni's
artistic talents, I've chosen to go for the color interpretation, which
sets up one of her famous dualities. Pink and blue, traditionally the
girls and boys, now men and women, if you will.
'Ecstasy' is sung alone, which to me implies the union of men and women,
a meeting of "hearts and minds", two elements merged into one -- with
ecstasy the result. And in this ecstasy, the chains of slavery are cast
off.
We are left with a classical rhetorical question to the muses of Misery,
Apathy and Tragedy, each of whom stands defeated on the stage ... now
that ecstasy has prevailed, who will do the dirty work?
Hope this helps, and that you won't be tempted to recommend a good
therapist for me! :-)
Don Rowe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:49:07 -0600
From: "John Villasana"
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain
I haven't noticed that. Nirvana certainly made news. So did the New Kids on the Block. Again, I
gice credit to Cobain for writing a catchy hook (no small feat), but his skill, overall remains
poor in comparison to a song written by, say, Joe Jackson.
Nirvana invented marketable teen angst? I thought the Who did. But I'm probably wrong. It was
probably someone way before the Who.
First of all, Nirvana didn't invent the soft/loud approach to musical composition. It's as old as
classical music. If you want something more contemporary, but better than Nirvana, try Stairway
to Heaven. Or The End by the Doors. Nirvana merely succeeded at doing it in a highly repetitive
and predictable manner.
Second, I have to admit that I don't know a lot about these other bands, though I know that I have
heard some of them. What I have heard of BUSH is far superior in composition, taste, and subtlety
than anything I have heard from Nirvana.
It is clear that when a band sells as many records as Nirvana, that the corporate machine is going
to spin off as many look-a-likes as possible in order to cash in on a proven commodity. This is
also when the media blitzes etc. get going. Nirvana, however was part of a much larger wave of
bands that probably had there roots in punk-->sonic youth lineage. What happened to all the other
ones. Even you couldnt remember more than a couple. Again, the media can play tricks with history
and memory. Nirvana was very fortunate to even get a chance. They wrote a few catchy tunes, but
were carried by enormous hype from the start. I know this because I used to work at a bookstore
with one of their fans before nevermind came out. There was a massive blitz in a rising faction of
the alternative press. We knew that Nirvana was gonna be big before the public even had a chance to
here them. There have been many other bands that have had as many notable if not better songs, and
certainly more accomplished artisticly that nobody cares about. Triumph, and Motly Crue had more
hit singles. The only reason anybody cares about MC anymore is because theye all married a bunch of
Baywatch babes.
< Then the real avalanche began - now that there were vehicles to get their music on the radio,
bands who had been playing "alternative" rock began to get noticed; Soundgarden, The Meat Puppets,
even XTC (I remember hearing "Senses Working Overtime" on a radio station in Greenville SC and
thinking how cool that was - of course, when I would call in and request Sonic Youth I'd just get
hung up on.)>
See what I mean about the media obscuring history? Sense Working Overtime predates Nirvana by at
least ten years. XTC's last album came out before Nevermind. Sonic Youth is another 80's band.
Neither of these bands ever made any sreious money. By the way, I love XTC. Check out their last
album. Again, on a whole other level interms of composition and arrangement. By the wasy, their
last drummer, Dave Mattacks, was the drummer for Fairport Convention. If anything, thes guys
were the real vanguard.
My point exactly. If you read my first post on this subject, you may have noticed that one of the
first things that are done to these less than worthy acts is to change the drummer. You can layer
and overproduce crap, and gloss over imperfections, but only if the drummer is very good. My
understanding is that Dave Grohl was hired when Nirvana went to Geffen records, which is when
Nirvana really took off.
jOhn
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
To: Joni List ; John Villasana
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:02 AM
Subject: Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain
>
>Marilune said:
>
>
> Then John said:
>
> < before. It's not clear to me who they've influenced. I don't see a
> lot of Cobain wannabes out there, musical or otherwise. >>
>
> John, Are you aware that in every major radio market they now have
> "alternative" radio formats? Nirvana almost single-handedly opened up
> this format - when "Nevermind" sold 12 million copies, the powers that
> be decided that there was gold in that there teen angst and these
> radio stations started popping up everywhere. It wasn't long before
> the imitators came out, most notably Bush who used the same stop/start
> - loud/quiet song structures. Others that come to mind: Sponge, Our
> Lady Peace, I'm sure there's a ton more.
>
> Then the real avalanche began - now that there were vehicles to get
> their music on the radio, bands who had been playing "alternative"
> rock began to get noticed; Soundgarden, The Meat Puppets, even XTC (I
> remember hearing "Senses Working Overtime" on a radio station in
> Greenville SC and thinking how cool that was - of course, when I would
> call in and request Sonic Youth I'd just get hung up on.)
>
> Anyway, IMO, none of this 90's wave (which like the aforementioned rap
> music has produced a lot of cruddy stuff) of rock would have happened
> without Kurt & the boys...interestingly enough, The Foo Fighters with
> ex-Nirvana drummer Dave Grohl rock just as hard and true, making me
> wonder who was REALLY pulling the strings on Nirvana's sound...
>
>
> Bob M. in SC
>
> NP: Van Halen, "Sinner's Swing"
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:54:20 -0600
From: "John Villasana"
Subject: Re: NJC
My apologies, I keep forgetting to put NJC on my posts. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have
caused.
jOhn
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:58:36 -0400
From: Jerry Notaro
Subject: Re: Hippie/Cobain
John Villasana wrote:
>
>
> Nirvana invented marketable teen angst? I thought the Who did. But I'm probably wrong. It was
> probably someone way before the Who.
How very right you are, John. That tribute has been accorded to the %0's singer Joni James.
Jerry
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:08:10 PST
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: Re: NJC (still njc)
>My apologies, I keep forgetting to put NJC on my posts. Sorry for any
inconvenience this may have
>caused.
>
None required from my corner. Anyone with enough nerve to stand up in
the prevailing winds and say that there was nothing original going on
underneath the noisy digital overdrive and distortion of Nirvana can put
whatever he or she likes on their posts. Funny nobody's mentioned the
"Unplugged", which to me really told the truth -- Cobain's songs weren't
songs at all, just repetetitve lines that got denser and noisier each
time they were played. Stripped of the gadgetry, you really had to
wonder, "Okay I've heard the sizzle, now where's the steak?"
So I'm curious, what do you do in the music industry -- and no, I'm not
looking for an agent, you just seem to have a keen ear, as well as some
experience at a mixing board and familiarity with demon SMPTE.
Don Rowe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:15:34 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[4]: Hippie/Cobain
<>
But "New Kids" didn't open up a wave of radio stations, did they??
<< Again, I
give credit to Cobain for writing a catchy hook (no small feat), but his skill,
overall remains
poor in comparison to a song written by, say, Joe Jackson.>>
No argument there - Jackson writes and performs rings around Nirvana, IMO.
<>
John, I never used the word "invented" -you did. Just yesterday I traced the
spirit of punk all the way to Mozart - all I meant to infer is that the
companies that stand to make profits from music saw fit to open up new markets
based on the (re)appearance of teen angst. (Teen angst - redundant words, anyway
;^))
<>
Again John, you throw in that word "invent" - I didn't use it, indeed, I'm not
sure there's nothing new under the sun. My *point* is that Nirvana's commercial
success spawned copycats.
<>
And that's your opinion and you're welcome to it...there are probably folks who
think Gerry & The Pacemakers are superior to The Beatles as well without
realizing who came first...
<sonic youth lineage. What
happened to all the other
ones. Even you couldnt remember more than a couple. Again, the media can play
tricks with history
and memory. Nirvana was very fortunate to even get a chance. They wrote a few
catchy tunes, but
were carried by enormous hype from the start. I know this because I used to
work at a bookstore
with one of their fans before nevermind came out. There was a massive blitz in
a rising faction of
the alternative press. We knew that Nirvana was gonna be big before the public
even had a chance to
here them. There have been many other bands that have had as many notable if
not better songs, and
certainly more accomplished artisticly that nobody cares about. Triumph, and
Motly Crue had more
hit singles. The only reason anybody cares about MC anymore is because theye
all married a bunch of
Baywatch babes.>>
You seem to be agreeing with me here as far as I can comprehend - and I have yet
to catch 'Baywatch'...
< Then the real avalanche began - now that there were vehicles to get their
music on the radio,
bands who had been playing "alternative" rock began to get noticed; Soundgarden,
The Meat Puppets,
even XTC (I remember hearing "Senses Working Overtime" on a radio station in
Greenville SC and
thinking how cool that was - of course, when I would call in and request Sonic
Youth I'd just get
hung up on.)>
<>
Believe me, I know all about XTC - I just this day finished "Songs & Stories" by
Neville Farmer and recommend it highly - my point was that by creating
"alternative" radio formats, Nirvana made it possible for me to hear a
15-year-old song like "Senses"
<< Sonic Youth is another 80's band.
Neither of these bands ever made any serious money.>>
Again, I never talked about the success or failure of the bands - I was talking
about HEARING THEIR TUNES ON THE RADIO...(excuse the shouting...)
<>
Amen and Amen! I have everything they've ever done (commercially anyway)
including their 'Transistor Blast' boxset and check their albums out with the
same frequency as Joni.
<>
Again we don't differ on this statement. Just to summarize:
1. You didn't see what the big deal was about Nirvana,
2. I responded by proposing that their commercial success (not necessarily their
talent) spawned radio staions, formats, bands, almost a whole "grunge scene".
I'm sorry if I did a poor job of expressing myself - most of your rebuttals were
filled with words & statements I did *not* make...
btw, thanks for the discussion - the defense rests...
Bob M.
NP: Stevie Ray Vaughan, "Little Wing"
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
To: Joni List ; John Villasana
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:02 AM
Subject: Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain
>
>Marilune said:
>
>
> Then John said:
>
> < before. It's not clear to me who they've influenced. I don't see a
> lot of Cobain wannabes out there, musical or otherwise. >>
>
> John, Are you aware that in every major radio market they now have
> "alternative" radio formats? Nirvana almost single-handedly opened up
> this format - when "Nevermind" sold 12 million copies, the powers that
> be decided that there was gold in that there teen angst and these
> radio stations started popping up everywhere. It wasn't long before
> the imitators came out, most notably Bush who used the same stop/start
> - loud/quiet song structures. Others that come to mind: Sponge, Our
> Lady Peace, I'm sure there's a ton more.
>
> Then the real avalanche began - now that there were vehicles to get
> their music on the radio, bands who had been playing "alternative"
> rock began to get noticed; Soundgarden, The Meat Puppets, even XTC (I
> remember hearing "Senses Working Overtime" on a radio station in
> Greenville SC and thinking how cool that was - of course, when I would
> call in and request Sonic Youth I'd just get hung up on.)
>
> Anyway, IMO, none of this 90's wave (which like the aforementioned rap
> music has produced a lot of cruddy stuff) of rock would have happened
> without Kurt & the boys...interestingly enough, The Foo Fighters with
> ex-Nirvana drummer Dave Grohl rock just as hard and true, making me
> wonder who was REALLY pulling the strings on Nirvana's sound...
>
>
> Bob M. in SC
>
> NP: Van Halen, "Sinner's Swing"
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:24:38 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: NJC (still njc)
Don Rowe wrote:
<<< Funny nobody's mentioned the
"Unplugged", which to me really told the truth >>>
I've stayed out of a point by point response because what I value
in music is clearly so different from what John V. values that I
don't want to waste anyone's time pontificating either of our
navels, but I will say that IMO Nirvana's _MTV Unplugged_ is
one of the most beautiful records I own (and I own a lot), and that
this record, along with covers of his songs by Sinead O'Connor,
Tori Amos, and Laura Love prove to me Cobain's prowess as a
songwriter. And the live show I was fortunate enough to see in
November 1993 gave me all the proof I needed of Nirvana's talent
as musical performers.
- --Michael
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:34:04 +0000
From: Kate Tarasenko
Subject: NJC: The Dead
Happy New Year in this month of the blue moon--
I don't think any musician or artist needs defending, although it's been
interesting reading all the insights and support of those defenders. As
for the Gr8ful Dead, I turned down a free ticket about 20 years ago,
then was dragged to another Dead concert 15 years later. I had the best
time of my life. Our seats were okay -- it was stadium seating in
Denver (McNichols Arena), and I had just broken up with my now
ex-husband. I was in no shape to do much but the minimum maintenance
routines, know what I mean? Fun and socializing were out of the
question. But I was too weak to fight, and my friend poured me into her
car, and through a freezing blizzard we drove to the concert. I didn't
know any song lyrics although everyone around me did. There was the
smoke of heavenly goob wafting all around me at the sold-out event full
of oldsters and high hippie-fashion trustafarians. And it was THE
mellowest, most friendliest crowd of 30,000 I had ever been in the
middle of in my life. It was truly one of the top five concert
experiences I've ever had, and it had nothing to do with the music! I
guess you had to be there...
Kate in CO
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:41:21 -0800
From: Randy Remote
Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC)
"It's a Beautiful Day"---
I saw them perform a reunion show a few months ago, and they were absolutely
incredible. I was not there during their initial heyday, but I've talked to
several people that have said that those were the best shows they had ever seen
(back then). If you mean there were no smoke and lasers and people were not
jumping around in matching sequend (sp?) suits, then, yes, it was a shitty
concert.
Also wanted to respond to the comment that the CSN album made people suddenly
aware of acoustic music. CSN came out in '69. Dylan came out in '64, and that's
when I would mark the masses as recognizing the power of the acoustic guitar,
even though the folk era began in '59 or '60 (debatable), I don't think it was
really the music of the masses although beyond being underground.
RR
IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/12/99 10:40:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, steveg@toad.net
> writes:
>
> << Now "It's A Beautiful Day." THAT was a group that knew how to do a shitty
> concert. >>
> So I've heard, but what a WONDERFUL studio album their self-titled first LP
> was!
> Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:56:50 -0600
From: Scott and Jody
Subject: Re: Grateful Dead (NJC)
Michael wrote:
> I'm wondering if gr8ful dave or any other GD experts out there
> would like to add their appreciation pieces to the thread?
>
I'm not a GD expert by any means. I've only seen them live 9 times.
I'd like to add an appreciation piece. The following song, "Four White
Horses" was written by Robert Hunter during a time of personal loss.
When a pistol crack from a bloodshot sky
Picks off each curse you dare to cry
When reason's light by love's dead flame
Shows no one but yourself to blame
When the well is empty if not yet dry
And the thirsty howl if you dare to cry
Bang their cups against your door
To drink your tears till you got no more
Four white horses will carry you home
Clear blue water will flow from stone
Four white horses who step so high
Swing down low now, bye and bye
When honey pours bitter and sugar turns black
And stings like scratches on a sunburned back
When all things sweet have lost their taste
And a well-meant smile just cracks like paste
When the crow on your cradle prophesies
That the day you're born is the day you die
And you lie ther finally cold and dead
In the midnight hour of deepest dread
Four white horses will carry you home
Clear blue water will flow from stone
Four white horses who step so high
Swing down low now, bye and bye
Soon or later all things pass
Four white horses come at last
One from Peter, one from Paul
One from Simon, one from Saul
Four white horses to carry you home
An angel to roll away your stone
Where time ain't nothing but a busted clock
Carry you home, you won't have to walk
Four white horses will carry you home
Clear blue water will flow from stone
Four white horses who step so high
Swing down low now, bye and bye
I like the way he writes, bye and bye instead of by and by. You'd never
know by listening to the song obviously, you have to read the lyrics.
He stated, "This is one of many songs written during a time of deep
personal loss. I'll let this necessary statement of hope stand for the
rest of them."
jody
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:08:16 -0400
From: Jerry Notaro
Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC)
Randy Remote wrote:
> "
> Also wanted to respond to the comment that the CSN album made people suddenly
> aware of acoustic music. CSN came out in '69. Dylan came out in '64, and that's
> when I would mark the masses as recognizing the power of the acoustic guitar,
> even though the folk era began in '59 or '60 (debatable), I don't think it was
> really the music of the masses although beyond being underground.
I think, besides the power of the 3 (then 4) great talents converging, their
contribution was their incredible harmonic blend of voices along with the acoustic
sound. That was rare, especially in an all male group.
Jerry
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:28:48 EST
From: DKasc13293@aol.com
Subject: Re: interpret-Passion Play
I've got to get in on this one because it's a top 10 Joni song for me. There
is tremendous movement and bouyancy in music. I can close my eyes and "feel"
as if I am floating away on a sea of ideas presented here. The sinner of some
position up a sycamore, observing the inevitable. Honestly, I could never
follow the ecstacy after the tragedy, misery and apathy. To me, ecstasy is a
pleasant and good thing.
As far as the radiation rose and Exxon blue are concerned, it seems like a
very accurate way of describing vivid colours. The vague beauty of the lyric
grabs me every time. The vocal performance of "radiation rose" is
breathtaking. Enough ranting. Sorry.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:40:30 EST
From: MHart16164@aol.com
Subject: Re: interpret-Passion Play
In a message dated 99-01-13 13:20:40 EST, you write:
<< 1. Ecstasy
2. Misery
3. Apathy
4. Tragedy >>
My read on this song...
Ecstasy--the beauty of one who comes in love
"who is this heart healer"
Misery--the appeal that He has for those who suffer and the love He has for
those who suffer.
Apathy--for those who lose sight of giving, loving, helping each other.
Tragedy--the crucifiction--destroy what we don't understand, comprehend, agree
with, etc.
Michele
NP: Kate Bush, Sensual World
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:34:11 -0800
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: Van Lyrics (SJC)
Michael wrote:
>I was listening to _Moondance_ on the way into work today and
>thought that I might be able to be convinced of his musical
>superiority but that his lyrics were just way too banal for special
>recognition.
I really will leave this to the other Van devotees who can discuss it better
than me, but have a few meager comments. Van has written and recorded close
to 300 songs. This is a little like listening to The Circle Game and asking
what's so great about Joni. I think Moondance is a gorgeous and brilliant
song but one cannot parse its' lyrics.
>Can any Van fans be a little more specific about
>which lyrics they like and why? At the moment I'm a bit
>mystified and would appreciate additional insight.
Funny you should use the word "mystified" - I think Van's lyrics are very
mystical! I don't think one can methodically analyze them in the same
manner as we analyze Joni or Dylan, for example. As Rob expressed, Van's
music and lyrics convey an essence of the spirit. When I read Van's lyrics
alone, I can "hear" the music, the rhythm, the beat in them and I can "feel"
all of his emotions and the highs and lows of his spirit as he travels
through them. They are not banal, but they are sometimes deceptively simple
and reel in, not your mind, but your soul and spirit. Not to compare the
two in any way, but I also get this same sense when I read Seal's lyrics
alone. Of course, an artist's lyrics alone should convey some of this
essence to people, but Van (and Seal) do it for me better than most.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:04:39 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: Van Lyrics (SJC)
Kakki wrote:
<<>>
Actually, I was listening to the entire _Moondance_ album, so it's
eleven songs I'm asking about. And since it's frequently mentioned
as one of his top two or three albums, I figure I should be able to
at least see one example of his greatness there, but I'm not seeing
it. I'm asking for help.
<<>>
Well, he uses the word himself, so it's not surprising that one would
have that association.
<<>>
That's fine; frankly I don't place a lot of importance on lyrics. I think
the music is more important. But because Van fans point to his
lyrics so often as a reason they love him, I thought some insight
there might help me understand the fascination.
<<>>
Can you cite an example? Even without analysis, just an example
of a line that resonates for you?
<<>>
"These dreams of you
So real and so true"
"When all the dark clouds roll away
And the sun begins to shine
I see my freedom from across the way
And it comes right in on time"
To me these read as banal. Those great lyrics everyone's talking
about must be out there, I just wish someone would tell me
where! :-)
<<>>
I love Seal, but I think he's a terrible lyricist. He never seems to
really know what he wants to say. As opposed to the nonsense
lyrics of someone like Michael Stipe, which I find fresh and
evocative. I love Seal for his music. I wish I could love Van for
his music, too, but it's not working, so somebody, anybody
please help me with the lyrics!! :-)
- --Michael
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V4 #23
*************************
There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more
details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading
-------
JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank
message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info.
-------
The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available
now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details.
-------
Don't forget about these ongoing projects:
FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related
questions? -send them to
Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to
Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact?
-send it to
-------
Post messages to the list at
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to
-------
Siquomb, isn't she?