From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #23 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 13 1999 Volume 04 : Number 023 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Hippie/Cobain ["John Villasana" ] Re: Hole ["John Villasana" ] Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Feathered Canyons and Cryptic Lyrics [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Grateful Dead (SJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Courtney Love (njc) [Ginamu@aol.com] Prayers and Comforting Wally [DKasc13293@aol.com] Courtney Love (sjc) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas [Jerry Notaro ] Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [MHart16164@aol.com] interpret-Passion Play ["M & C Urbanski" ] Grateful Dead (SJC) [Kevin_E_Licht@email.whirlpool.com] Re: jonilove [klempner@email.unc.edu (Mark Klempner)] Joni on DVD!! Now, I'll buy a DVD player. ["Leong, Dennis" ] RE: interpret-Passion Play ["Wally Kairuz" ] RE: Grateful Dead (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] RE: Cryptic Lyrics (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: interpret-Passion Play [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: interpret-Passion Play ["Don Rowe" ] Re: Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain ["John Villasana" ] Re: NJC ["John Villasana" ] Re: Hippie/Cobain [Jerry Notaro ] Re: NJC (still njc) ["Don Rowe" ] Re[4]: Hippie/Cobain [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] RE: NJC (still njc) [Michael Yarbrough ] NJC: The Dead [Kate Tarasenko ] Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [Randy Remote ] Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [Jerry Notaro ] RE: Van Lyrics (SJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:42:43 -0600 From: "John Villasana" Subject: Re: Hippie/Cobain OK Marilune said: Just when and how did they do that? I have heard this statement before. It's not clear to me who they've influenced. I don't see a lot of Cobain wannabes out there, musical or otherwise. I can see how this could be said about Robert Plant, or Jimi Hendrix who could truly be called prototypical. Didn't say there was anything wrong with her being a media gal. I was making the point that she is being praised as being some sort of musical vanguard, or pop genius, while she hasn't really produced anything substantial. All the media in the world shouldn't change that. This goes back to my original statement that a lot of 90's stars are merely contrivances, and don't stand up when compared to the talent or product if you will, of the 60/70/80's. By the way, whats so strong about her? Anybody can spit out their opinions. I don't know if it makes you strong. It's strong if you can defend your opinions. jOhn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:53:02 -0600 From: "John Villasana" Subject: Re: Hole Evian wrote: I would agree. What I have heard of the album sounds very good. My point was, that it had less to do with the artist "Hole", than a very talented and professional production team. My complaint (again), was with respect to 90's stardom vs Hippie Shit et al. I was saying that it was hard for me to respect what has been propped up as pop genius or whatever, when what I see is corporate contrivance on a massive scale. Maybe I'm being idealistic here, but if were gonna give an artist credit for being great, or important, or icon status, or whatever, then they should at least have something to do with it besides being a media darling. jOhn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:59:16 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) - -----Original Message----- From: IVPAUL42@aol.com ><< Now "It's A Beautiful Day." THAT was a group that knew how to do a shitty > concert. >> >So I've heard, but what a WONDERFUL studio album their self-titled first LP >was! >Paul I That record also had a beautiful sleeve design showing a girl against a blue sky with wispy clouds. Ah yes those fabulous 60's - even the record covers were great. Philip NP Kid Loco - A Grand Love Story ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:01:05 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Feathered Canyons and Cryptic Lyrics - -----Original Message----- From: IVPAUL42@aol.com > If anyone else has had a revelatory moment in which they saw something in a >new way and suddenly understood a Joni lyric (like listening to the rustling >of the arbutus trees sounding like applause), how about sharing it with us. > >Paul I At a concert I was at Joni said the inspiration for the arbustus tree line comes from Vancouver. Apparently there is a street in that city which is lined with misshapen arbutus trees which grow outwards, making things difficult for pedestrians and for people parking cars. It sounded so funny - the wilderness encroaching on the city. Philip NP Hits of the 60's (Not really - only joking) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:31:08 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Grateful Dead (SJC) In a message dated 1/13/99 12:06:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: > Well, Gina, just because YOU don't understand them (and from your attitude I > have to say you probably didn't give them much thought) doesn't mean they > don't make sense. Ripple is a very pretty song, Paul. You don't have to convince me. I didn't mean to be so hard on the Dead. I guess I just feel that there are so many more brilliant bands and artists who've not received the type of attention that the Dead have and perhaps are more deserving. And by the way, Paul, I am fairly familiar with many Dead songs and their lyrics. I still maintain that you can't use them as examples of great songwriting. The Dead may be many good things to many people but that doesn't make them great songwriters. I think I recall that the Robert Hunter songs were pretty nice and then it all went downhill after that. You may soon be correcting me on this. Actually, I'm curious as to when RH left off as the their lyricist. Did he write most or all of the songs up to a certain time? Again, I was just expressing my opinion and I did say some nice things about their earlier work, which I hear in regular rotation on my favorite radio station and always enjoy. I always, always pay attention to lyrics! So please don't assume that I am just narrow minded and that I feel like slagging the Dead this week. I almost always like SOMETHING by any band or artist of some merit, including the Dead, but great songwriting was not their strength. I understand the meaning of many of their songs. I'm not that simple! It's just that how I arrived at the meaning just didn't always seem worth the effort. Keep on truckin' ! Gina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:34:18 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: Courtney Love (njc) In a message dated 1/13/99 1:13:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, evian@sk.sympatico.ca writes: > Again, this is a tit-for-tat > debate about "true artistry". Yes, Courtney Love ain't no Joni, but > does everything we listen to have to measure up to the standard of her > music? Hell, IMO, CELEBRITY SKIN supersedes TTT in my albums ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:36:27 EST From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Prayers and Comforting Wally If any of you have wandered over to the homepage this morning you'll find the saddening news of the results of Wally's recent operation. I encourage everyone to E-mail Wally. He's a really nice guy, given some bad news. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:37:16 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Courtney Love (sjc) > Again, this is a tit-for-tat > debate about "true artistry". Yes, Courtney Love ain't no Joni, but > does everything we listen to have to measure up to the standard of her > music? Thank you for saying this. It is so true. I am very guilty of this recently in my reactions to the Grateful Dead's lyrics. Joni has spoiled us for most other songwriters! Gina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:34:08 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas MHart16164@aol.com wrote: > P.S. I'm a straight girl that likes Joni Mitchell and I'm not sure what that > means! It means that Joni appeals to everyone, male of female, straight or gay, young or old, as this list has proven over and over again. It is a testament to her genius, and the universality of her music and lyrics. Jerry np: Vonda Shepard - Don't Walk Away, Renee ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:39:59 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain Marilune said: Then John said: <> John, Are you aware that in every major radio market they now have "alternative" radio formats? Nirvana almost single-handedly opened up this format - when "Nevermind" sold 12 million copies, the powers that be decided that there was gold in that there teen angst and these radio stations started popping up everywhere. It wasn't long before the imitators came out, most notably Bush who used the same stop/start - loud/quiet song structures. Others that come to mind: Sponge, Our Lady Peace, I'm sure there's a ton more. Then the real avalanche began - now that there were vehicles to get their music on the radio, bands who had been playing "alternative" rock began to get noticed; Soundgarden, The Meat Puppets, even XTC (I remember hearing "Senses Working Overtime" on a radio station in Greenville SC and thinking how cool that was - of course, when I would call in and request Sonic Youth I'd just get hung up on.) Anyway, IMO, none of this 90's wave (which like the aforementioned rap music has produced a lot of cruddy stuff) of rock would have happened without Kurt & the boys...interestingly enough, The Foo Fighters with ex-Nirvana drummer Dave Grohl rock just as hard and true, making me wonder who was REALLY pulling the strings on Nirvana's sound... Bob M. in SC NP: Van Halen, "Sinner's Swing" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:03:06 EST From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) You said... >So I've heard, but what a WONDERFUL studio album their self-titled first LP >was! >Paul I That record also had a beautiful sleeve design showing a girl against a blue sky with wispy clouds. Ah yes those fabulous 60's - even the record covers were great.>> I loved this album! White Bird was one of those songs that has always "moved me." The violin always sounds so sweet and especially in that song. Hippie Shit or not, I like most of the 60's stuff. Michele NP: Seal--Human Being ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:36:46 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: interpret-Passion Play Along with the cryptic theme...recently flying to Arizona, I was pointing out to my husband the ice cream castles and feathered canyons that were in the clouds. Now, this has been a big discussion between my husband & I: Passion Play- he doesn't understand the song. What does it mean... "Enter the multitudes In Exxon blue In radiation rose Ecstasy Now you tell me Who're you gonna get to do the dirty work When all the slaves are free...Misery...Apathy...Tragedy" When I first listened, I was trying to figure out if she was asking that question to God/Jesus or Satan. When I read the lyrics I figured she was addressing Ecstasy, Misery, Apathy & Tragedy directly. Tragedy...who are you (tragedy) going to get? Enter the multitudes... exxon blue...radiation rose is this after a nuke blast? The obvious theme is the life of Christ but, what does the rest of it around the theme mean? I would really appreciate everyone's & anyone's interpretation (So would my husband)!! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:50:31 -0500 From: Kevin_E_Licht@email.whirlpool.com Subject: Grateful Dead (SJC) Just wanted to count myself as one who tremendously enjoys Joni AND the Grateful Dead. In fact I listen to these two artists more than all others combined, no doubt. I attended several Dead shows in the late 80's and 90's (unfortunately my last show was the ill-fated gate crashing incident at Deer Creek in Indy) so I can attest to the magic that occurred at most every show. I too appreciated the fact that the band wasn't jumping around like crazy and that every show was different. You never knew what song was around the bend. Nowadays, I hit Furthur Festival and Ratdog (Bobby Weir's band) shows when I can, and was lucky enough to catch Joni three times in '98 (Seattle, Indy)! The Dead were a phenomenon that you either get or don't get, I guess. But I think it's some of the most honest, diverse, inspiring and feel-good music out there. Kevin np NPR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:06:21 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: klempner@email.unc.edu (Mark Klempner) Subject: Re: jonilove No--go for it! I'll cc this to the JMDL.--Mark K. > hi mark, > actually your perceptiveness (is that a word?) surprises me... *G* do you mind if I make your > question, and my response, public? pat > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:47:55 Mark Klempner wrote individually to P. Henry: > >Hi Pat. OK, a private question: did you ever think of giving her a > >backrub, stealing a kiss, asking her out? I know you were really young, > >so I understand if you were too mesmerized. Was she totally the untouchable > >Goddess? But it sounds like you had a relaxed connection with some laughs > >and fun in it. So how did you handle it? > > > >Just curious--so I'll be prepared for ???? > > > >Mark > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:10:08 -0600 From: "Leong, Dennis" Subject: Joni on DVD!! Now, I'll buy a DVD player. From alt.video.dvd: Joni Mitchell:Painting With Words & Music (DVD/AC3) ID5515ERDVD $24.99 Rated: NR IED:Image DVD 1998 98 min. UPC#014381551525 Pop & Rock Dealer prebook cutoff date: 01/26/99 Street Date: 03/16/99 Features: AC3/REG0 Joni Mitchell, the Queen of folk rock, performs for an intimate audience on the Warner Brothers lot in Los Angeles. This concert is classic Joni Mitchell, and her repertoire here covers the complete arc of her career. With a stage backdrop of her own paintings, this program gives a unique insight into the talents and life of Joni Mitchell. Songs: Tiger Bones, Big Yellow Taxi, Just Like This Train, Night Ride Home, Crazy Cries of Love, Harry's House, Black Crow, Guitar Strumming 1 & 2, Amelia, Hejira, Sex Kills, The Magdelene Laundries, Moon at the Window, Guitar Tuning, Facelift, Why Do Fools Fall in Love?, Trouble Man, Nothing Can Be Done, Song for Sharon, Woodstock, Dream Land. English:5.1 Surround. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:48:23 -0800 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Wally's Surgery This is not the report I was hoping to post: Wally came through yesterday without any surgical complications, but the end result, unfortunately, wasn't the outcome we'd hoped for. Jim (Wally's best friend) talked to Wally's disappointed surgeon just after the operation and reported that he'd found evidence of new cancer cells in Wally's pelvis that were too small to show up on the CT scan. Although these tumors are mostly very small and aren't showing up in any vital organs, it's unlikely that they could all be removed surgically without missing some of them. So it looks like a surgical cure isn't an option any more. Wally's not in as much pain as he was the last time around, and we're thankful for that (although he still needs morphine to control the pain this soon after surgery). Since it was a shorter, less invasive procedure, he probably won't be staying at the hospital as long as expected, and will come to stay with Jim again for a while to recuperate before going home. The bad news, of course, is that we're moving into a period of uncertainty. The next course of action will be more chemotherapy, which I'm told is enough to control the advance of the disease in some patients. The last time Wally had chemo, the results were encouraging so we're hoping that another course, probably administered in a way that allows for better results with fewer side effects, will help to keep the disease at bay. Although he's often groggy from the painkillers, our friend is often quite lucid and seems to be adopting a stoical attitude toward his situation at this point. He's been through a lot already, and I think that attitude could help him deal with these new challenges. His General Practitioner came in today and mentioned how depressed he felt after talking to the surgeon; Wally remarked later that he thought his doctor was "more depressed than I am." You can send emails to Wally care of Jim (TruDelusns@aol.com) or if you would like to mail a card and/or a gift you can send them care of me at: P. O Box 2775, Santa Cruz, CA 95063. I will be visiting Wally often and I hope to entice him into a game of Scrabble! Leslie Mixon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:36:03 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: interpret-Passion Play This song too seems to deal with the second coming of Christ which, according to the Bible, will occur after the reign of the Beast, a time of corruption and destruction. The world as we know it will end in several stages[ the sea will turn red, there'll be plagues, each child will turn against his/her parent, etc.]. Joni is probably associating these final confrontations and waves of destruction with corporate excesses and nuclear disasters, hence the crowds in radiation rose and the question about the slaves. WallyK > >The obvious theme is the life of Christ but, what does the rest of it >around the theme mean? > >I would really appreciate everyone's & anyone's interpretation (So would my >husband)!! > >Marilyn > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:46:06 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Grateful Dead (NJC) Thanks to Paul for this nice post. The lyrics he quoted *are* pretty nice. These in particular struck me as almost gospel in character: <<>> I'm wondering if gr8ful dave or any other GD experts out there would like to add their appreciation pieces to the thread? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:53:26 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Cryptic Lyrics (NJC) Kakki wrote about Van Morrison: <<< Just to read his lyrics alone, without the music, is a poetic feast.>>> I was listening to _Moondance_ on the way into work today and thought that I might be able to be convinced of his musical superiority but that his lyrics were just way too banal for special recognition. Can any Van fans be a little more specific about which lyrics they like and why? At the moment I'm a bit mystified and would appreciate additional insight. - --Michael NP: _Moondance_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:16:31 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: interpret-Passion Play Marilyn asked: <> Marilyn, Further to my previous comments, I think she's presenting Ecstasy, Misery, Apathy, & Tragedy as a cycle, much like she presents "Artifice, Brutality, & innocence" as a cycle in "The Three Great Stimulants". Ecstasy becomes Misery in time (this may be referencing man's fall from grace) - if no change is affected, if no one cares (Apathy), then Tragedy results because people become slaves either to oppressive government or to oppressive Corporations. I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but I think it *is* significant that she orders the 4 words that way: 1. Ecstasy 2. Misery 3. Apathy 4. Tragedy Almost like a mini-song within the piece...what a song! What a songwriter!! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:38:00 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: interpret-Passion Play >"Enter the multitudes >In Exxon blue >In radiation rose >Ecstasy >Now you tell me >Who're you gonna get to do the dirty work >When all the slaves are free...Misery...Apathy...Tragedy" Oh I do enjoy a good Joni Challenge. I've intentionally ignored the other responses until I've had my shot at it, so forgive me if this seems repetitive. I think the song title is the first clue -- Passion Play -- staged by a classical Greek theatre. 'The multitudes' entering are the Chorus, cast in a faceless corporate 'Exxon blue'. Now here's where it gets interesting. I see one of two angles on the next line ... depending on if you read 'rose' as a noun (color) or a verb (rose up). Given Joni's artistic talents, I've chosen to go for the color interpretation, which sets up one of her famous dualities. Pink and blue, traditionally the girls and boys, now men and women, if you will. 'Ecstasy' is sung alone, which to me implies the union of men and women, a meeting of "hearts and minds", two elements merged into one -- with ecstasy the result. And in this ecstasy, the chains of slavery are cast off. We are left with a classical rhetorical question to the muses of Misery, Apathy and Tragedy, each of whom stands defeated on the stage ... now that ecstasy has prevailed, who will do the dirty work? Hope this helps, and that you won't be tempted to recommend a good therapist for me! :-) Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:49:07 -0600 From: "John Villasana" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain I haven't noticed that. Nirvana certainly made news. So did the New Kids on the Block. Again, I gice credit to Cobain for writing a catchy hook (no small feat), but his skill, overall remains poor in comparison to a song written by, say, Joe Jackson. Nirvana invented marketable teen angst? I thought the Who did. But I'm probably wrong. It was probably someone way before the Who. First of all, Nirvana didn't invent the soft/loud approach to musical composition. It's as old as classical music. If you want something more contemporary, but better than Nirvana, try Stairway to Heaven. Or The End by the Doors. Nirvana merely succeeded at doing it in a highly repetitive and predictable manner. Second, I have to admit that I don't know a lot about these other bands, though I know that I have heard some of them. What I have heard of BUSH is far superior in composition, taste, and subtlety than anything I have heard from Nirvana. It is clear that when a band sells as many records as Nirvana, that the corporate machine is going to spin off as many look-a-likes as possible in order to cash in on a proven commodity. This is also when the media blitzes etc. get going. Nirvana, however was part of a much larger wave of bands that probably had there roots in punk-->sonic youth lineage. What happened to all the other ones. Even you couldnt remember more than a couple. Again, the media can play tricks with history and memory. Nirvana was very fortunate to even get a chance. They wrote a few catchy tunes, but were carried by enormous hype from the start. I know this because I used to work at a bookstore with one of their fans before nevermind came out. There was a massive blitz in a rising faction of the alternative press. We knew that Nirvana was gonna be big before the public even had a chance to here them. There have been many other bands that have had as many notable if not better songs, and certainly more accomplished artisticly that nobody cares about. Triumph, and Motly Crue had more hit singles. The only reason anybody cares about MC anymore is because theye all married a bunch of Baywatch babes. < Then the real avalanche began - now that there were vehicles to get their music on the radio, bands who had been playing "alternative" rock began to get noticed; Soundgarden, The Meat Puppets, even XTC (I remember hearing "Senses Working Overtime" on a radio station in Greenville SC and thinking how cool that was - of course, when I would call in and request Sonic Youth I'd just get hung up on.)> See what I mean about the media obscuring history? Sense Working Overtime predates Nirvana by at least ten years. XTC's last album came out before Nevermind. Sonic Youth is another 80's band. Neither of these bands ever made any sreious money. By the way, I love XTC. Check out their last album. Again, on a whole other level interms of composition and arrangement. By the wasy, their last drummer, Dave Mattacks, was the drummer for Fairport Convention. If anything, thes guys were the real vanguard. My point exactly. If you read my first post on this subject, you may have noticed that one of the first things that are done to these less than worthy acts is to change the drummer. You can layer and overproduce crap, and gloss over imperfections, but only if the drummer is very good. My understanding is that Dave Grohl was hired when Nirvana went to Geffen records, which is when Nirvana really took off. jOhn - -----Original Message----- From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com To: Joni List ; John Villasana Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:02 AM Subject: Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain > >Marilune said: > > > Then John said: > > < before. It's not clear to me who they've influenced. I don't see a > lot of Cobain wannabes out there, musical or otherwise. >> > > John, Are you aware that in every major radio market they now have > "alternative" radio formats? Nirvana almost single-handedly opened up > this format - when "Nevermind" sold 12 million copies, the powers that > be decided that there was gold in that there teen angst and these > radio stations started popping up everywhere. It wasn't long before > the imitators came out, most notably Bush who used the same stop/start > - loud/quiet song structures. Others that come to mind: Sponge, Our > Lady Peace, I'm sure there's a ton more. > > Then the real avalanche began - now that there were vehicles to get > their music on the radio, bands who had been playing "alternative" > rock began to get noticed; Soundgarden, The Meat Puppets, even XTC (I > remember hearing "Senses Working Overtime" on a radio station in > Greenville SC and thinking how cool that was - of course, when I would > call in and request Sonic Youth I'd just get hung up on.) > > Anyway, IMO, none of this 90's wave (which like the aforementioned rap > music has produced a lot of cruddy stuff) of rock would have happened > without Kurt & the boys...interestingly enough, The Foo Fighters with > ex-Nirvana drummer Dave Grohl rock just as hard and true, making me > wonder who was REALLY pulling the strings on Nirvana's sound... > > > Bob M. in SC > > NP: Van Halen, "Sinner's Swing" > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:54:20 -0600 From: "John Villasana" Subject: Re: NJC My apologies, I keep forgetting to put NJC on my posts. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused. jOhn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:58:36 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Hippie/Cobain John Villasana wrote: > > > Nirvana invented marketable teen angst? I thought the Who did. But I'm probably wrong. It was > probably someone way before the Who. How very right you are, John. That tribute has been accorded to the %0's singer Joni James. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:08:10 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: NJC (still njc) >My apologies, I keep forgetting to put NJC on my posts. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have >caused. > None required from my corner. Anyone with enough nerve to stand up in the prevailing winds and say that there was nothing original going on underneath the noisy digital overdrive and distortion of Nirvana can put whatever he or she likes on their posts. Funny nobody's mentioned the "Unplugged", which to me really told the truth -- Cobain's songs weren't songs at all, just repetetitve lines that got denser and noisier each time they were played. Stripped of the gadgetry, you really had to wonder, "Okay I've heard the sizzle, now where's the steak?" So I'm curious, what do you do in the music industry -- and no, I'm not looking for an agent, you just seem to have a keen ear, as well as some experience at a mixing board and familiarity with demon SMPTE. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:15:34 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: Hippie/Cobain <> But "New Kids" didn't open up a wave of radio stations, did they?? << Again, I give credit to Cobain for writing a catchy hook (no small feat), but his skill, overall remains poor in comparison to a song written by, say, Joe Jackson.>> No argument there - Jackson writes and performs rings around Nirvana, IMO. <> John, I never used the word "invented" -you did. Just yesterday I traced the spirit of punk all the way to Mozart - all I meant to infer is that the companies that stand to make profits from music saw fit to open up new markets based on the (re)appearance of teen angst. (Teen angst - redundant words, anyway ;^)) <> Again John, you throw in that word "invent" - I didn't use it, indeed, I'm not sure there's nothing new under the sun. My *point* is that Nirvana's commercial success spawned copycats. <> And that's your opinion and you're welcome to it...there are probably folks who think Gerry & The Pacemakers are superior to The Beatles as well without realizing who came first... <sonic youth lineage. What happened to all the other ones. Even you couldnt remember more than a couple. Again, the media can play tricks with history and memory. Nirvana was very fortunate to even get a chance. They wrote a few catchy tunes, but were carried by enormous hype from the start. I know this because I used to work at a bookstore with one of their fans before nevermind came out. There was a massive blitz in a rising faction of the alternative press. We knew that Nirvana was gonna be big before the public even had a chance to here them. There have been many other bands that have had as many notable if not better songs, and certainly more accomplished artisticly that nobody cares about. Triumph, and Motly Crue had more hit singles. The only reason anybody cares about MC anymore is because theye all married a bunch of Baywatch babes.>> You seem to be agreeing with me here as far as I can comprehend - and I have yet to catch 'Baywatch'... < Then the real avalanche began - now that there were vehicles to get their music on the radio, bands who had been playing "alternative" rock began to get noticed; Soundgarden, The Meat Puppets, even XTC (I remember hearing "Senses Working Overtime" on a radio station in Greenville SC and thinking how cool that was - of course, when I would call in and request Sonic Youth I'd just get hung up on.)> <> Believe me, I know all about XTC - I just this day finished "Songs & Stories" by Neville Farmer and recommend it highly - my point was that by creating "alternative" radio formats, Nirvana made it possible for me to hear a 15-year-old song like "Senses" << Sonic Youth is another 80's band. Neither of these bands ever made any serious money.>> Again, I never talked about the success or failure of the bands - I was talking about HEARING THEIR TUNES ON THE RADIO...(excuse the shouting...) <> Amen and Amen! I have everything they've ever done (commercially anyway) including their 'Transistor Blast' boxset and check their albums out with the same frequency as Joni. <> Again we don't differ on this statement. Just to summarize: 1. You didn't see what the big deal was about Nirvana, 2. I responded by proposing that their commercial success (not necessarily their talent) spawned radio staions, formats, bands, almost a whole "grunge scene". I'm sorry if I did a poor job of expressing myself - most of your rebuttals were filled with words & statements I did *not* make... btw, thanks for the discussion - the defense rests... Bob M. NP: Stevie Ray Vaughan, "Little Wing" - -----Original Message----- From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com To: Joni List ; John Villasana Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 8:02 AM Subject: Re[2]: Hippie/Cobain > >Marilune said: > > > Then John said: > > < before. It's not clear to me who they've influenced. I don't see a > lot of Cobain wannabes out there, musical or otherwise. >> > > John, Are you aware that in every major radio market they now have > "alternative" radio formats? Nirvana almost single-handedly opened up > this format - when "Nevermind" sold 12 million copies, the powers that > be decided that there was gold in that there teen angst and these > radio stations started popping up everywhere. It wasn't long before > the imitators came out, most notably Bush who used the same stop/start > - loud/quiet song structures. Others that come to mind: Sponge, Our > Lady Peace, I'm sure there's a ton more. > > Then the real avalanche began - now that there were vehicles to get > their music on the radio, bands who had been playing "alternative" > rock began to get noticed; Soundgarden, The Meat Puppets, even XTC (I > remember hearing "Senses Working Overtime" on a radio station in > Greenville SC and thinking how cool that was - of course, when I would > call in and request Sonic Youth I'd just get hung up on.) > > Anyway, IMO, none of this 90's wave (which like the aforementioned rap > music has produced a lot of cruddy stuff) of rock would have happened > without Kurt & the boys...interestingly enough, The Foo Fighters with > ex-Nirvana drummer Dave Grohl rock just as hard and true, making me > wonder who was REALLY pulling the strings on Nirvana's sound... > > > Bob M. in SC > > NP: Van Halen, "Sinner's Swing" > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:24:38 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: NJC (still njc) Don Rowe wrote: <<< Funny nobody's mentioned the "Unplugged", which to me really told the truth >>> I've stayed out of a point by point response because what I value in music is clearly so different from what John V. values that I don't want to waste anyone's time pontificating either of our navels, but I will say that IMO Nirvana's _MTV Unplugged_ is one of the most beautiful records I own (and I own a lot), and that this record, along with covers of his songs by Sinead O'Connor, Tori Amos, and Laura Love prove to me Cobain's prowess as a songwriter. And the live show I was fortunate enough to see in November 1993 gave me all the proof I needed of Nirvana's talent as musical performers. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:34:04 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: NJC: The Dead Happy New Year in this month of the blue moon-- I don't think any musician or artist needs defending, although it's been interesting reading all the insights and support of those defenders. As for the Gr8ful Dead, I turned down a free ticket about 20 years ago, then was dragged to another Dead concert 15 years later. I had the best time of my life. Our seats were okay -- it was stadium seating in Denver (McNichols Arena), and I had just broken up with my now ex-husband. I was in no shape to do much but the minimum maintenance routines, know what I mean? Fun and socializing were out of the question. But I was too weak to fight, and my friend poured me into her car, and through a freezing blizzard we drove to the concert. I didn't know any song lyrics although everyone around me did. There was the smoke of heavenly goob wafting all around me at the sold-out event full of oldsters and high hippie-fashion trustafarians. And it was THE mellowest, most friendliest crowd of 30,000 I had ever been in the middle of in my life. It was truly one of the top five concert experiences I've ever had, and it had nothing to do with the music! I guess you had to be there... Kate in CO ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:41:21 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) "It's a Beautiful Day"--- I saw them perform a reunion show a few months ago, and they were absolutely incredible. I was not there during their initial heyday, but I've talked to several people that have said that those were the best shows they had ever seen (back then). If you mean there were no smoke and lasers and people were not jumping around in matching sequend (sp?) suits, then, yes, it was a shitty concert. Also wanted to respond to the comment that the CSN album made people suddenly aware of acoustic music. CSN came out in '69. Dylan came out in '64, and that's when I would mark the masses as recognizing the power of the acoustic guitar, even though the folk era began in '59 or '60 (debatable), I don't think it was really the music of the masses although beyond being underground. RR IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/12/99 10:40:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, steveg@toad.net > writes: > > << Now "It's A Beautiful Day." THAT was a group that knew how to do a shitty > concert. >> > So I've heard, but what a WONDERFUL studio album their self-titled first LP > was! > Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:56:50 -0600 From: Scott and Jody Subject: Re: Grateful Dead (NJC) Michael wrote: > I'm wondering if gr8ful dave or any other GD experts out there > would like to add their appreciation pieces to the thread? > I'm not a GD expert by any means. I've only seen them live 9 times. I'd like to add an appreciation piece. The following song, "Four White Horses" was written by Robert Hunter during a time of personal loss. When a pistol crack from a bloodshot sky Picks off each curse you dare to cry When reason's light by love's dead flame Shows no one but yourself to blame When the well is empty if not yet dry And the thirsty howl if you dare to cry Bang their cups against your door To drink your tears till you got no more Four white horses will carry you home Clear blue water will flow from stone Four white horses who step so high Swing down low now, bye and bye When honey pours bitter and sugar turns black And stings like scratches on a sunburned back When all things sweet have lost their taste And a well-meant smile just cracks like paste When the crow on your cradle prophesies That the day you're born is the day you die And you lie ther finally cold and dead In the midnight hour of deepest dread Four white horses will carry you home Clear blue water will flow from stone Four white horses who step so high Swing down low now, bye and bye Soon or later all things pass Four white horses come at last One from Peter, one from Paul One from Simon, one from Saul Four white horses to carry you home An angel to roll away your stone Where time ain't nothing but a busted clock Carry you home, you won't have to walk Four white horses will carry you home Clear blue water will flow from stone Four white horses who step so high Swing down low now, bye and bye I like the way he writes, bye and bye instead of by and by. You'd never know by listening to the song obviously, you have to read the lyrics. He stated, "This is one of many songs written during a time of deep personal loss. I'll let this necessary statement of hope stand for the rest of them." jody ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:08:16 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) Randy Remote wrote: > " > Also wanted to respond to the comment that the CSN album made people suddenly > aware of acoustic music. CSN came out in '69. Dylan came out in '64, and that's > when I would mark the masses as recognizing the power of the acoustic guitar, > even though the folk era began in '59 or '60 (debatable), I don't think it was > really the music of the masses although beyond being underground. I think, besides the power of the 3 (then 4) great talents converging, their contribution was their incredible harmonic blend of voices along with the acoustic sound. That was rare, especially in an all male group. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:28:48 EST From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: interpret-Passion Play I've got to get in on this one because it's a top 10 Joni song for me. There is tremendous movement and bouyancy in music. I can close my eyes and "feel" as if I am floating away on a sea of ideas presented here. The sinner of some position up a sycamore, observing the inevitable. Honestly, I could never follow the ecstacy after the tragedy, misery and apathy. To me, ecstasy is a pleasant and good thing. As far as the radiation rose and Exxon blue are concerned, it seems like a very accurate way of describing vivid colours. The vague beauty of the lyric grabs me every time. The vocal performance of "radiation rose" is breathtaking. Enough ranting. Sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:40:30 EST From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: Re: interpret-Passion Play In a message dated 99-01-13 13:20:40 EST, you write: << 1. Ecstasy 2. Misery 3. Apathy 4. Tragedy >> My read on this song... Ecstasy--the beauty of one who comes in love "who is this heart healer" Misery--the appeal that He has for those who suffer and the love He has for those who suffer. Apathy--for those who lose sight of giving, loving, helping each other. Tragedy--the crucifiction--destroy what we don't understand, comprehend, agree with, etc. Michele NP: Kate Bush, Sensual World ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:34:11 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Van Lyrics (SJC) Michael wrote: >I was listening to _Moondance_ on the way into work today and >thought that I might be able to be convinced of his musical >superiority but that his lyrics were just way too banal for special >recognition. I really will leave this to the other Van devotees who can discuss it better than me, but have a few meager comments. Van has written and recorded close to 300 songs. This is a little like listening to The Circle Game and asking what's so great about Joni. I think Moondance is a gorgeous and brilliant song but one cannot parse its' lyrics. >Can any Van fans be a little more specific about >which lyrics they like and why? At the moment I'm a bit >mystified and would appreciate additional insight. Funny you should use the word "mystified" - I think Van's lyrics are very mystical! I don't think one can methodically analyze them in the same manner as we analyze Joni or Dylan, for example. As Rob expressed, Van's music and lyrics convey an essence of the spirit. When I read Van's lyrics alone, I can "hear" the music, the rhythm, the beat in them and I can "feel" all of his emotions and the highs and lows of his spirit as he travels through them. They are not banal, but they are sometimes deceptively simple and reel in, not your mind, but your soul and spirit. Not to compare the two in any way, but I also get this same sense when I read Seal's lyrics alone. Of course, an artist's lyrics alone should convey some of this essence to people, but Van (and Seal) do it for me better than most. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:04:39 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Van Lyrics (SJC) Kakki wrote: <<>> Actually, I was listening to the entire _Moondance_ album, so it's eleven songs I'm asking about. And since it's frequently mentioned as one of his top two or three albums, I figure I should be able to at least see one example of his greatness there, but I'm not seeing it. I'm asking for help. <<>> Well, he uses the word himself, so it's not surprising that one would have that association. <<>> That's fine; frankly I don't place a lot of importance on lyrics. I think the music is more important. But because Van fans point to his lyrics so often as a reason they love him, I thought some insight there might help me understand the fascination. <<>> Can you cite an example? Even without analysis, just an example of a line that resonates for you? <<>> "These dreams of you So real and so true" "When all the dark clouds roll away And the sun begins to shine I see my freedom from across the way And it comes right in on time" To me these read as banal. Those great lyrics everyone's talking about must be out there, I just wish someone would tell me where! :-) <<>> I love Seal, but I think he's a terrible lyricist. He never seems to really know what he wants to say. As opposed to the nonsense lyrics of someone like Michael Stipe, which I find fresh and evocative. I love Seal for his music. I wish I could love Van for his music, too, but it's not working, so somebody, anybody please help me with the lyrics!! :-) - --Michael ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #23 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?