From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #22 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, January 13 1999 Volume 04 : Number 022 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: Re: Hippie Shit [Marilune@aol.com] Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [Ginamu@aol.com] Re: hippie s**t LJC [Mark-n-Travis ] Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) ["Steve Garrison" ] Shana Morrison to play McCabe's (SJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Grateful Dead (SJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Courtney Love (njc) [evian ] Re: Feathered Canyons and Cryptic Lyrics ["Kakki" ] Re: Courtney Love (njc) ["Kakki" ] Re: joni covers [Joseph Palis ] Re: Feathered Canyons and Cryptic Lyrics [IVPAUL42@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:30:44 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 2:44:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: > but I never could figger out what was so 'outasite' about the dead, other > than a few of their album covers! > I'm all for varied musical tastes and all but if I could get you all > together in one place I'd be interested to see a 'show of hands' to see how > many of you who love Joni also like the dead... I'm bettin' it ain't too many. > .. Pat, I'm somewhat younger than you and was introduced to the Dead by my older brother in something like...1973 or so (I was 12). My brother was a big fan. I like some of the "prettier" stuff by them such as the songs on American Beauty and Workingman's Dead (when they were more acoustic) but as a live band (and I saw them perform on a few occasions in the mid to late 70s, with friends who were fans) I have to say that I just don't understand the worship. No one in that band can sing, the lyrics to most of their songs don't make much sense and their stage presence emitted a sort of male arrogance that made me feel ill at ease (though there was that token girl in the band who also couldn't sing). They took themselves too seriously, had no affect (emotionless) on stage and essentially bored me to tears. Why I attended more than one show I can only in retrospect guess had something to do with the hope of potentially smoking some very good pot. Europe 72' remains my pick for the worse live album of I've ever heard. Doesn't mean it's so, just my opinion. I'm not a musician and my ability to understand music's technical aspects is limited but if I recall, the sound on that album was terrible, the instruments and vocals all garbled. And by the way, I always hated the album cover of Europe 72' - goofy as all get out! And the whole Dead culture with its single-minded obsession with the band,cartoon rainbows and dancing bears. I found it all too hard to take. I'll take the hippie "shit" of JT, CSNY, etc. any day (and I was introduced to this stuff some years after it first came out). Gina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:03:06 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Hippie Shit In a message dated 1/12/99 9:18:01 PM, refab@neptune.ConnectI.com wrote: >I have to admit that I don't like a lot of 90's stuff. The problem I have is that >it seems to me > >that icons are so easily fabricated by the media. For example Courtney Love and >Kurt Cobain. I'll > >start with Cobain. > > > >I give Cobain credit for one thing. He can write a catchy melody. The problem >is, his songs never > >develop beyond the first little catchy melody. He starts a catchy melody, then >he repeats it over > >an over again. Then he variates by getting louder in the chorus, then again returning >to the same > >verse. His melodies are not particularly original. Like Alanis, his music sounds >like something > >I've already heard before, maybe in the 60's or seventies. There is simply (from >a musical > >standpoint, and we are talking about music here), nothing in the least bit original >about Cobains' > >work, from his produciton style, to his guitar tone, to his vocal style, his >melodic style. > >Beyond the music, he didn't have a message. He whined a lot, okay he was depressed. > Some would > >say Joni or Janis were depressed. Okay, but they expressed it so originally and >cleverly, there > >was no one else like them. And their music was far more interesting. I find it >odd that Cobain was > >the equivelent of John Lennon, after one hit record. Most 60's icons had fairly >long careers with > >multiple successes, and innovations. > > > >And Courtney Love. What has this woman accomplished. She screams into a microphone. > I can't even > >remember one tune. She's obnoxious, so what. I haven't heard a coherent message >from her either. > >Her music, what I've heard, is a joke. Contrary to popular belief, banging >wildly on a guitar > >into overdriven amplifier is not a big accomplishment. I used to do it all the >time when didn't > >know how to play yet. So did half of my friends. > > > >So how did she manage to become such an icon? It's called multimedia blitz. And >it works very > >favorably to the record business. If you can create an icon, you can control >and profit more from > >an icon. Thats why producers make so much money. The record company is cutting >them in to create a > >proffessional product with an artificial talent. I know this, because I am in >the music business, > >and I see it all the time. Band looks good, there's a buzz about them, one problem. > They can't > >play. So what do you do? Bring in the professionals, fire the drummer, get >the rumour mill > >going, make some comparisons to predesessors. Pretty soon it's all true. The >record companies > >have this down to a science. Want some tangible evidence? > > > >Look at the band, like the Bangles for example. Look at the lieup. Hmm... GTR, > GTR, Bass, > >Drums, Vocals. Now listen to the music. Does walk like an Egyptian soundlike >those instruments. > >No, it sounds like samples and drum loops. Another example would be that Breeders >single that came > >out a couple of years ago. The one that starts with a tea kettle whistle. Nirvana >is a little > >harder to spot, besides the mediocre song writing, everything is highly processed >with > >compressers, and ribbon mikes. Compressors are used to smooth out inconsistant >dynamics. Ribbon > >mikes have a soft focus effect. Both can be used very musicly, but are often >used to gloss over > >poor technique. I could go on, but you get my point. > > > >I just realized how long this is, so I'll leave it at that. Other points to follow. > > > >jOhn AHEM. as kim deal says: you got me going. i've defended cobain a few times on this list and it's no secret that i love the breeders. but i can do it again. sure, kurt could write a good song. kurt wrote great songs. and yes they did get louder and faster. and yes some people, like yourself, just don't get nirvana. that's fine. but you can't deny the influence kurt and nirvana had on the entire music business and the direction of music itself. Nirvana changed the face of rock. and if one band can do that with one man writing the songs, i think it and he deserve, if not icon-hood, then at least recognition for their accomplishments. i don't see how you can say it was all production. certainly "In Utero" was more produced than "Nevermind" or "Bleach", but it was electric and exciting. so much that it holds up today. turn on any alternative radio station and you'll hear "Smells Like Teen Spirit" or "Lithium" or "Come as You Are" pouring out. i can't think of any other bands from the early 90s who are still as popular as nirvana. as for courtney love, i've never cared for Hole (if you're looking for melody, go someplace else) and she is somewhat of a media-gal. but what's wrong with that? she's a really strong person and i admire her strong stances on things, even if i don't like the music. the breeders song i think you're refering to is "Cannonball". it's off the Last Splash album which is full of unsually sounds (especially the muted electric guitars that kim and kelley set up). it's not all drum loops and production. if you want production, go to the backstreet boys and nsync for a while. come back and tell me which is really the produced media-hype and which is the real, time-tested stuff. - -mariana - -mariana ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:14:53 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 8:49:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ginamu@aol.com writes: << I like some of the "prettier" stuff by them such as the songs on American Beauty and Workingman's Dead (when they were more acoustic) but as a live band (and I saw them perform on a few occasions in the mid to late 70s, with friends who were fans) I have to say that I just don't understand the worship. No one in that band can sing, the lyrics to most of their songs don't make much sense and their stage presence emitted a sort of male arrogance that made me feel ill at ease (though there was that token girl in the band who also couldn't sing). They took themselves too seriously, had no affect (emotionless) on stage and essentially bored me to tears. >> Well, I've enjoyed every one of the six Grateful Dead concerts I attended, though some more than others. For me, the fact that they stood there and played their asses off without all the jumping around and stage antics was a big part of the attraction. I couldn't stand the Rolling Stones and Van Halen and a lot of the bands who tried to juice up their live performances with smoke bombs and laser light shows or whatever. Furthermore, the Dead performing live were in many ways like a combination of a great rock and roll band and a great jazz combo, because a lot of their performance was improvisation. Sure, sometimes they sucked when their improvisations didn't go well, but more times than not, it was great. And unlike a Rolling Stones concert, the Dead were unpredictable. Some people who don't like jazz or improvisational music could be "bored to tears," but most were not. Jerry Garcia once said, and I am paraphrasing here, that listening to a Dead concert was like driving past a cornfield. Most of the time it looked disorganized and jumbled, like there was no pattern or reason. Then you would get to a point where all the rows lined up in every direction you looked, and it seemed for a split second like perfection. "Sometimes the lights are all shining on me (onstage); other times I can barely see. (backstage) Lately it's occurred to me what a long, strange trip it's been." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:10:37 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 9:14:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, IVPAUL42 writes: > Furthermore, the Dead performing live were in many ways like a combination > of a great rock and roll band and a great jazz combo, because a lot of their > performance was improvisation. I don't find it that difficult to discern the difference between hazy-headed noodling and jazz improv. Sorry. Gina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:19:44 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 1/12/99 2:44:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, > badwolff@angelfire.com writes: > > << how many of you who love Joni also like the dead... I'm bettin' it ain't > too many... >> > > I could never understand the whole Dead thing... Me either. Mark in Seattle (is that the same as me too? are the JMDL police going to come after me?) > > Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:17:54 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 7:20:59 PM, mariana wrote: >why does elliott "owe" CSN and taylor? melody has always been around. it's not >as if they opened the doorway for melodic songs mariana, no need to raise your hackles over this, I meant nothing as dastardly as you seem to think. All I mean is that I hear those influences in his music (although I hear more Beatles, especially George Harrison, and Brian Wilson, and XTC), and as Michael had acknowledged that Elliott is melodic, and Elliott is influenced by so-and-so, then it should be acknowledged that so-and-so is melodic. That's all. As far as owing a debt to our influences, as a composer I readily and gladly acknowledge my huge debt to those from whom I've borrowed or even stolen, because every creative artist borrows and steals from those who came before ... the trick is to borrow and steal from the best and to then make it your own. Elliott is great at this; I love XO and wasn't implying that he was somehow lesser for having done so, or that he wouldn't exist if not for them. Certainly I do know that JT, CSN, etc. didn't invent melody. OK? - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:39:47 -0500 From: "Steve Garrison" Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) Well, Gina... apart from these few quibbles how did you enjoy the show? I had the good fortune of attending a really good show in St.Paul in 1973 ...I was given a recording of it a couple of years ago and was surprised at how well it held up. I only attended one other concert and was never a cultist, but my college roomies and I (Carleton Coll. in sunny Northfield, MN.) had a more or less permanent play rotation of Europe '72 (Gina! The worst...REALLY?) Allman Bros @Fillmore, Miles' Jack Johnson film music and Bach's 5th Brandenburg (the Britten recording--we didn't always get beyond the first movement, I'll admit. Now "It's A Beautiful Day." THAT was a group that knew how to do a shitty concert. Steve P.S.- I also left a Bonnie Raitt/Little Feat concert in Charlottesville early because of the lousy venue and listless playing, so anyone can suck on any given night. - ---------- >From: Ginamu@aol.com I have to say that I just don't understand the worship. No one in >that band can sing, the lyrics to most of their songs don't make much sense >and their stage presence emitted a sort of male arrogance that made me feel >ill at ease (though there was that token girl in the band who also couldn't >sing). They took themselves too seriously, had no affect (emotionless) on >stage and essentially bored me to tears. Europe 72' remains my pick for the worse live >album of I've ever heard. Doesn't mean it's so, just my opinion. I'm not a >musician and my ability to understand music's technical aspects is limited but >if I recall, the sound on that album was terrible, the instruments and vocals >all garbled. And by the way, I always hated the album cover of Europe 72' - >goofy as all get out! And the whole Dead culture with its single-minded >obsession with the band,cartoon rainbows and dancing bears. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:44:03 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: VLJC: Bitch From: "dianne schofield" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:00:39 -0000 I was parked at traffic lights in Liverpool and a sports car, driven by a man, pulled up next to me and he was playing Harlem in Havana!!!! Have never ever heard Joni played by anyone else. I rsisited the urge to wave and shout-never know what ight have happened! On the way up I was listening to TTT and NRH. You know, I think maybe NRH just ight be my fave. Slouching in particular just fills me. Well here I am in Blackburn again. had to bring Haley up to be mated. She was supposed to go to my friends dog Hadley but he tried to jump out of a pen and caught his willy and damaged it so that is him out of action for a while. Brought all three and just as well cos Sky was being sneaky and she in fact wants some fun too so she will be mated to The Pig.(don'ty ask why he is called that). Haley will have Loxley. So by end of March, to litters hopefully will be born. In liverpool went to Thelma and kens as two of my cats have given birth. There is a super super red boy in one litter and the other 6 are only 24hrs old so too soon to tell. they need to be 4 days before i can tll which are the gooduns. BTW I hope to get a stud out of the to Lhasa Litters-and I will name him for a Joni song or album so if you would care to suggest a name.... colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:36:41 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Shana Morrison to play McCabe's (SJC) Mr. Dulson has kindly informed me that Shana Morrison will be performing at McCabe's in Santa Monica, CA on Saturday, February 13th. I really recommend checking her out for those who live in the area. She is a unique and amazing performer. I am swamped at work these days and was unable to attend the film "The Last Stand" that has Joni's music in it tonight. It's also looking bad for tomorrow evening at the Tower gig with Larry Klein and Lynn Miles ;-( If anyone happens to catch the concert, I'd love to hear about it. Running behind the times, Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:48:09 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC, Grateful Dead (NJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 10:40:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, steveg@toad.net writes: << Now "It's A Beautiful Day." THAT was a group that knew how to do a shitty concert. >> So I've heard, but what a WONDERFUL studio album their self-titled first LP was! Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:02:56 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Grateful Dead (SJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 10:40:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, |Gina writes: << the lyrics to most of their songs don't make much sense >> Well, Gina, just because YOU don't understand them (and from your attitude I have to say you probably didn't give them much thought) doesn't mean they don't make sense. I would hazard to guess that many people who do not listen regularly to SIQUOMB might have a little trouble understanding the meaning of some of her songs in the first several listenings. "Feathered canyons everywhere"? What, is she on drugs? What canyon has feathers? Give me a break, OK? I'll bet if you sat down with the lyrics to "Ripple" and studied them awhile, you might actually begin to understand. Are the meanings of lyrics from Beatles songs always obvious? To me, lyrics to most Rolling Stones songs are like being hit over the head lessons. I like the cryptic poetry of "Uncle John's Band" or "Ripple": "If my words did flow with the gold of sunshine And my tunes were played on the harp unstrung Would you hear my voice come through the music? Would you hold it near, as it were your own? It's a hand me down, the thoughts are broken Perhaps they're better left unsung I don't know, don't really care Let there be songs to fill the air Ripple flowing in still water When there is no pebble tossed Nor wind to blow Reach out your hand if your cup be empty If your cup is full may it be again Let it be known there is a fountain That was not made by the hands of man There is a road, no simple highway Between the dawn and the dark of night And if you go, no-one may follow That path is for your steps alone Ripple flowing in still water When there is no pebble tossed Nor wind to blow You who choose to lead must follow But if you fall, you fall alone If you should stand, then who's to guide you/ If I knew the way, I would take you home" Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:09:54 -0600 From: evian Subject: Courtney Love (njc) > And Courtney Love. What has this woman accomplished. She screams into a microphone. I can't even > remember one tune. She's obnoxious, so what. I haven't heard a coherent message from her > Well, a lot of people scream into a microphone... And yes, she is obnoxious... but by the looks of it, so are most celebs.. Look at the run-in listers had with Van's lovely security people. And does she have to HAVE a message? I loved Hole's LIVE THROUGH THIS, and even though there is all that controversy about her songwriting (i.e. who actually writes the stuff), CELEBRITY SKIN has grown to be one of my all-time fave cds. Contrary to popular belief, this cd is not all noise and chaos. Rather, it is quite accessible. Again, this is a tit-for-tat debate about "true artistry". Yes, Courtney Love ain't no Joni, but does everything we listen to have to measure up to the standard of her music? Hell, IMO, CELEBRITY SKIN supersedes TTT in my albums of the year.Anyway, just had to try to defend Hole! Evian np: "Malibu" by Hole for the 4th time in a row ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:22:24 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Feathered Canyons and Cryptic Lyrics Paul wrote: > I would hazard to guess that many people who do not listen regularly to >SIQUOMB might have a little trouble understanding the meaning of some of her >songs in the first several listenings. "Feathered canyons everywhere"? What, >is she on drugs? What canyon has feathers? I never thought of this until you brought it up, Paul. I don't think Joni usually tends toward cryptic lyrics so this made me curious. I may have an answer and Joni may not be as cryptic as she appears in that song. Have you ever seen Pampas Grass? It grows wild and prolifically here, especially in the L.A. canyons after a wet rainy season. In full bloom, the bloom on the long (5 to 8 ft.) branches absolutely looks like huge silvery white feathers! > I like the cryptic poetry of "Uncle John's Band" or "Ripple": I really love some cryptic lyrics if it rings true from the soul. I think Van Morrison has a few, along with Seal. The funny thing is I somehow *know* what they are saying, even though they are being cryptic. Geez, I wonder if it is a bit akin to understanding someone speaking in "tongues"! Speaking of Van, I really loved Rob's defense of him yesterday. For those who revere him, it *is* very difficult to put into words the reasons why. Rob did a beautiful job of it. To me, Van is like a magical, mystical leprechaun. He is absolutely original and unique and I think his lyrics, along with his music and performance, are on another plane. He travels and transcends many genres of music and emotion in a way like no other individual in music in my experience. Just to read his lyrics alone, without the music, is a poetic feast. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:34:53 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Courtney Love (njc) Evian wrote: > Look at the run-in listers had with Van's lovely security people. Oh, now that I've just defended Van and was also the one with the story about his Doberman security force, I feel I should clarify. I thought we all had a great experience with Van and his entourage. I regarded the Doberman with a wink and a smile and actually entertained the thought that he was probably from Central Casting! Part of the show, you know? > CELEBRITY SKIN has grown to be one of my all-time >fave cds. Hell, IMO, CELEBRITY SKIN supersedes TTT in my albums of the >year.Anyway, just had to try to defend Hole! I inadvertently neglected to mention previously that Celebrity Skin was on every local L.A. zine writers' top ten list at the end of the year. And Evian, I feel really bad if you thought I was slagging Stevie Nicks yesterday. I don't want to slag other people's faves at all. I just thought FM was great as they were to begin with and did not need any adjustment in their sound and style. I have Stevie's and Lindsay's first album "Buckingham Nicks" (before they joined FM) and love it. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:52:48 +0800 (PST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: joni covers > Veteran jazz guitarist Pat Martino in 1997 put out an album of duets (some > slightly augmented) called "All Sides Now" in which he performed with such > diverse artists as Charlie Hunter, Joe Satriani, Les Paul, Tuck Andress, the > late Michael Hedges, Mike Stern and Kevin Eubanks. But the clear highlight > of the effort was the not-quite-the-title cut, "Both Sides Now," with > smoky-voiced Cassandra Wilson. If over the years you've ever dismissed the > song as a bit of formulaic Joni Juvenilia, this is a version to freshen your > ears. > I couldn't agree more that Cassandra Wilson's version of BSN is one of those rare examples where the cover sometimes surpass the original. Just a piece of trivia though: Pat Martino approached Joni to sing the song with him but Joni obviously have other commitments then. Cassandra as everyone knows admires Joni unreservedly. Joseph ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:54:43 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Feathered Canyons and Cryptic Lyrics In a message dated 1/13/99 1:31:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << "Feathered canyons everywhere"? What, >is she on drugs? What canyon has feathers?>> I never thought of this until you brought it up, Paul. I don't think Joni usually tends toward cryptic lyrics so this made me curious. I may have an answer and Joni may not be as cryptic as she appears in that song. Have you ever seen Pampas Grass? It grows wild and prolifically here, especially in the L.A. canyons after a wet rainy season. In full bloom, the bloom on the long (5 to 8 ft.) branches absolutely looks like huge silvery white feathers! >> Kakki, No, I haven't seen Pampas grass, but I was being a bit facetious since I have actually seen "feathered canyons." It was the summer of '74 and the morning after I saw Joni in concert with the L.A. Express at Ravinia in suburban Chicago, I took off on a trip out west with my cousin and a friend. A couple of days later we were driving into Yellowstone Park on a high road above a canyon. As I looked down along the slopes of the canyon, it occurred to me that the thick growth of trees looked like feathers on the mountainside. So that's my "feathered canyon" story. Here's something I never do -- start a thread. If anyone else has had a revelatory moment in which they saw something in a new way and suddenly understood a Joni lyric (like listening to the rustling of the arbutus trees sounding like applause), how about sharing it with us. Paul I ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #22 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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