From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #21 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 12 1999 Volume 04 : Number 021 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- urge... ["P. Henry" ] Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) [FredNow@aol.com] re: hippie s**t LJC ["P. Henry" ] Re: Joni and Paris [FredNow@aol.com] Re: (NJC)American Music Awards ["John M. Lind" ] Deadicated Joni fans (aka who likes the Joni who likes the Dead) [Mary Gr] Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas ["John M. Lind" ] A nice surprise (SJC) [Claud.Loren.Carter@ccMail.Census.Gov] American Music Awards (absolutely NJC) ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] RE: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: hippie-s**t [ken ziolkowski ] Re: Re[2]: hippie s**t NJC (Big Bands) ["Kakki" ] Re: Hippie Shit ["John Villasana" ] Re: JMDL Digest V4 #20 [brumstine ] RE: Re[2]: hippie s**t NJC (Big Bands) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re[4]: hippie s**t NJC (Big Bands) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas [MHart16164@aol.com] Re:NJC Cat Stevens/Hippie music [Diana Duncan ] The songs we like (SJC) [davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine)] Re: Joni and Paris [luvart@snet.net] Re: charge for internet (NJC) [Janet Hess ] Re: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) [Jason Maloney] Re: hippie s**t LJC [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Marilune@aol.com] Re: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Marilune@aol.com] Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Marilune@aol.com] Re: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Marilune@aol.com] Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Marilune@aol.com] Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) [David Wright ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:51:09 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: urge... mary wrote: "has Joni ever recorded UFG? I was expecting to find it on one of the first 2 albums, but having gotten them recently, realize it's not there..." your words tweaked this little brain... from a different perspective, that of hearing her sing it live at least 50 times, all long before the release of her first album, I recall often wondering at the very same expectation. in those days CG and UFG were, without a doubt, Joni's most popular and requested songs. (followed by "Night In The City" and one called "Moon In The Mirror" which she's never recorded, to my knowledge) I have posted on this before and, in case you missed it, here are some of the things I've already said: "I think one can see, for example, a greater difference between the songs she'd written back then but didn't record until later albums. "Circle Game" and "Urge For Going", for example, were her foremost songs in the 'old days' and, as one who was a listener to the 'coffeehouse Joni' I can remember puzzling over the conspicuous absence of these two on STAS... I mean, there was "Night", and "Michael", and "Seagull", so where were "Circle" and "Urge", one, (UFG) her proclaimed favorite and both, her most popular?!?!? ...and where the heck did these other songs come from instead?!? GREAT songs, but totally new! could be that she left them for later, other albums because others had been recording those particular songs, I don't know..." the other thing I can (re)tell you about 'Urge' is that: IT WAS HER FAVORITE SONG! the reason this impression remains so strong with me is because she said it... again and again... virtually every time she ever performed it, even when just sitting around jamming, it seemed she always wanted to make sure that people knew that about her... that 'Urge' was her favorite song of all the songs she'd written, which, even back then, was quite a lot. in fact, I'd be surprised if she didn't say it on the live 'second fret' tape from that same time period, which I haven't heard yet... maybe somone can verify that... pat ps: oh, another thing I just remembered... it may be that it was the first of her songs ever recorded... I remember the night she flew in from toronto for the weekend and handed me a 45rpm of George Hamilton IV doing 'Urge' with a huge grin on her face... seemed she was really blown away that someone had actually recorded one of her songs... *G* as I recall, I didn't like it very much... but then, look at what I had to compare it with! Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:37:24 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) Jerry Notaro wrote: >>And even if I'm not a Bob Dylan fan, though I did enjoy his concert >>in Maryland, I would never question his genius, nor his credibility >>as an artist, just because I don't particularly care for it. Right on, Jerry. This is the crucial leap that so many fail to make: one's taste is not necessarily the arbiter of what has artistic worth. In other words, to say that "If I don't like it, it must not be any good" is an act of great hubris. It's essential to discern between personal taste and critical assessment, whether they intersect or not. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:17:43 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: re: hippie s**t LJC well, y'all are gettin' pretty deep for me... one thing caught my eye though... I lived in communes, attended love-ins and peace rallies, joined subversive organisations, dropped acid, ate at digger kitchens and was chaufferred by wavy himself on the magic bus, 'further', (just myself and my hippy-chick g-friend on our way to see janis) but I never could figger out what was so 'outasite' about the dead, other than a few of their album covers! I'm all for varied musical tastes and all but if I could get you all together in one place I'd be interested to see a 'show of hands' to see how many of you who love Joni also like the dead... I'm bettin' it ain't too many... pat *putting on flame-retardant suit now* Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:11:41 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Paris MDESTE1@aol.com >>It was because the last two album tapes I brought were the ones with >>Jonis first five. Song to a Seagull, Clouds, Ladies of the Canyon and >>Court and Spark and Blue. I really enjoyed your post ... Paris is one of my very favorite places in the world, so it doesn't get much better than your subject header: "Joni and Paris." A small correction (apologies if I'm one of several who have already pointed this out) -- Joni's first five albums are Song to a Seagull, Clouds, Ladies of the Canyon, Blue, and For The Roses. Court And Spark is her sixth. Hopefully this oversight is just that. But on the off chance that you don't have For The Roses and/or aren't familiar with it, please get it right away ... it's one of her very best ever. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:15:02 -0500 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Re: (NJC)American Music Awards Anne Madden wrote: >I hate rap music and a large portion of this show was taken up playing >rap - - what rubbish. It's a fad and 10 years from now no-one is >going to remember any of it! No offense Anne, But I think the first time I heard this stated was in high school uh, over ten years ago. Rap/Hip Hop is just like *any* other musical genre. There is genuinely creative, well thought-out, music made in this style and then there is 98% of what you hear of it on the radio and eMTyv. The AMA are a popularity contest not a test of musical validity. They are based on sales and most people, in this country anyway, will only spend their money on something they've already heard. Whereas most music of quality doesn't get airplay and therefore you won't see it on the awards shows. You may not be able to turn on a TV or radio without hearing/seeing Puffy Combs right now, but in ten years he will probably be a perfect example of your statement while artists like KRS One and Afrika Bambatta will almost certainly still be very active. John~ NP "The Wing And The Wheel" Nanci Griffith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:20:44 -0800 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Deadicated Joni fans (aka who likes the Joni who likes the Dead) >>> "P. Henry" 01/12/99 11:17am >>> >>one place I'd be interested to see a 'show of hands' to see how many of you who love Joni also like the dead... I'm bettin' it ain't too many... What the heck - I'm killing time while waiting for the next audit request. I love Joni and I love the Dead. As someone who for years thought their rendition of "Big Boss Man" was actually "Big Ball of String," it was not the complexity of the music or the timelessness of the lyrics that got me. For me, it was the overall Dead experience that drew me in. The concerts, the concert-goers and the atmosphere were a huge attraction for someone like me. I grew up in a very conservative, Catholic household. I rejected many of those values yet did not totally embrace a hippie lifestyle, (as I perceived it to be). Attending Dead shows allowed me a glimpse into this alternative mind set and become a part of it for a few hours. It was "a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there." And now, what has me still liking the Dead is the nostalgia. Many songs can bring up funky memories of old friends and past experiences. With Joni, her music and lyrics are what I latch onto. She's not a "culture," per se. I listened to her in the past because her work illuminated some of my teenaged angst darkness. I listen to her now because it illuminates my thisclose to 40 stumblings. And the stuff is darn purty, too. MG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:19:20 -0500 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas You're dammed right I'm a straight guy who likes Joni Mitchell and whoever doesn't like it can kiss my hairy butt! Urrrp! {scratch, scratch, scratch} Where's my beer?! ;-) John~ NP "It's Just Another Morning Here" Nanci Griffith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:31:01 -0500 From: Claud.Loren.Carter@ccMail.Census.Gov Subject: A nice surprise (SJC) All, For lunch today I went to a card shop to get happy birthday cards for my wife (one from me, and another from our son). Playing on the sound system at the store was Joni singing "The Circle Game". I asked the cash register person if that was who I thought it was, she confirmed it, and now I can't get the tune and words out of my mind. It's rattling around in that vast empty space that is my head. I can't recall ever hearing our Ms. M. being played as background muzak before. Certainly was a nice surprise, it may make me more inclined to visit there ("The Party Store", supposedly a big chain in California) again. Loren..... NP (in my mind)....The Circle Game....Our Ms M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:36:50 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: American Music Awards (absolutely NJC) Uhmmm.... Pat Boone? Neil Sedaka? Michael Yarbrough said: I'm sure you can think of some late-'50s early-'60s rock-n-roller who took a commercialized, diluted version of the r'n'r sound to financial success. - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:41:13 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) <<< but to claim, as you originally did, that there are no melodies is just incorrect.>>> I'll try to clarify again. In my opinion, James Taylors' melodies are not strong enough to warrant special attention as musical genius. I think that both the Beatles and Elliott Smith have stronger melodies than Taylor, and that is why I prefer their music to his. Does this make sense? - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:47:14 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) I wrote: <<>> Sorry--this message was intended for Fred only. I apologize for the extra message. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:09:28 -0500 From: ken ziolkowski Subject: Re: hippie-s**t Terry M wrote: >------------------------------ >Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:43:25 EST >From: TerryM2442@aol.com >Subject: Re: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) > >Dear separated at birth, > >Amazing. I agree with everything said in your post. I don't even know how >folks can read/write email while having music on, thus you'll rarely ever see >NP at the bottom of my letters here. > >I guess what really strikes me is the idea that hippie "shit" was all acoustic >and sans melody. If memory serves me right, most of the stuff that was >popular was electrifying rock- The Who, Hendrix, Stones, etc. It wasn't until >CSN came out with their debut album that people stopped dead in their tracks >and became more accepting of the accoustic guitar. Sure, there were those who >liked Judy Collins, Joan Baez and the like, but most didn't even admit it at >the time. > >Anyone else remember it this way? >Terry Terry, In my foggy 44-year old mind, I remember it that way also. For us aging boomers who remember the electric rock "attack bands" such as Humble Pie, Foghat, Vanilla Fudge, any of Eric Clapton's bands, The Razzberry Rhinocerous (no wait, that was a bar in Pittsburgh!), etc. that were popular when I was in high school, the style was, more often than not, "louder, faster, louder". Then, in the late 60's/early 70's, bands such as CSN&Y decided that the emphasis would be a more acoustic style of music, featuring solid vocals. How can you forget the harmonies on "Deja Vu" or Jerry Garcia's pedal steel on "Teach Your Children"? Look at what The Band did with Big Pink and The Band/Brown Album; hell, no one knew how to classify what they were doing, mistakenly dubbing it "country rock" (ack!). Hell, even the Dead came out in 1970 with two of, IMHO, best albums (American Beauty, Workingman's Dead) which emphasized the acoustic talents of Jerry Garcia and featured players such as David Grisman. While the music of the attack bands does not tend to hold up, I find that the albums of CSN&Y, The Band, etc. to sound as fresh as they did when I bought them ~30 years ago. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:04:41 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Re[2]: hippie s**t NJC (Big Bands) Bob wrote: > << My generation did not want to listen or relate to the music of our > parent's generation. I couldn't bear to listen to the jitterbugging, > corny, syrupy love song, big band stuff that my mother kept telling me > was the most beautiful music ever created! >> > > Kakki, I had a good smile when I read this as it had the exact > *opposite* response from me - when I was in college and seriously > buying and getting into music, I started rifling through my parent's > record collection and discovered the Benny Goodman, Harry James, Glenn > Miller, Ella Fitzgerald stuff and thought it rocked!! Oh Bob, you are just the person I've been looking for. I have a huge stack of it all right here beside me waiting to be auctioned off on Ebay! I'll give you a bulk discount, O.K.? There can be no dispute that you named all the good stuff here! In college as part of my arts curricula, I was required to study the music of all of the above and it was a most fantastic experience. Guess it is one thing if you are discovering it in your own way instead of being told by your elders that you should think it's the greatest! Kakki NP: Clapton - "Broken Hearted" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:16:34 -0600 From: "John Villasana" Subject: Re: Hippie Shit I have to admit that I don't like a lot of 90's stuff. The problem I have is that it seems to me that icons are so easily fabricated by the media. For example Courtney Love and Kurt Cobain. I'll start with Cobain. I give Cobain credit for one thing. He can write a catchy melody. The problem is, his songs never develop beyond the first little catchy melody. He starts a catchy melody, then he repeats it over an over again. Then he variates by getting louder in the chorus, then again returning to the same verse. His melodies are not particularly original. Like Alanis, his music sounds like something I've already heard before, maybe in the 60's or seventies. There is simply (from a musical standpoint, and we are talking about music here), nothing in the least bit original about Cobains' work, from his produciton style, to his guitar tone, to his vocal style, his melodic style. Beyond the music, he didn't have a message. He whined a lot, okay he was depressed. Some would say Joni or Janis were depressed. Okay, but they expressed it so originally and cleverly, there was no one else like them. And their music was far more interesting. I find it odd that Cobain was the equivelent of John Lennon, after one hit record. Most 60's icons had fairly long careers with multiple successes, and innovations. And Courtney Love. What has this woman accomplished. She screams into a microphone. I can't even remember one tune. She's obnoxious, so what. I haven't heard a coherent message from her either. Her music, what I've heard, is a joke. Contrary to popular belief, banging wildly on a guitar into overdriven amplifier is not a big accomplishment. I used to do it all the time when didn't know how to play yet. So did half of my friends. So how did she manage to become such an icon? It's called multimedia blitz. And it works very favorably to the record business. If you can create an icon, you can control and profit more from an icon. Thats why producers make so much money. The record company is cutting them in to create a proffessional product with an artificial talent. I know this, because I am in the music business, and I see it all the time. Band looks good, there's a buzz about them, one problem. They can't play. So what do you do? Bring in the professionals, fire the drummer, get the rumour mill going, make some comparisons to predesessors. Pretty soon it's all true. The record companies have this down to a science. Want some tangible evidence? Look at the band, like the Bangles for example. Look at the lieup. Hmm... GTR, GTR, Bass, Drums, Vocals. Now listen to the music. Does walk like an Egyptian soundlike those instruments. No, it sounds like samples and drum loops. Another example would be that Breeders single that came out a couple of years ago. The one that starts with a tea kettle whistle. Nirvana is a little harder to spot, besides the mediocre song writing, everything is highly processed with compressers, and ribbon mikes. Compressors are used to smooth out inconsistant dynamics. Ribbon mikes have a soft focus effect. Both can be used very musicly, but are often used to gloss over poor technique. I could go on, but you get my point. I just realized how long this is, so I'll leave it at that. Other points to follow. jOhn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:16:30 -0800 (PST) From: brumstine Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #20 hello all- im a big joni fan however i also love the artist 4merly prince and natalie merchant. both these artists have cited joni as an influence on them. furthermore natalie has covered "all i want" and prince used to sing "a case of u" in concert. now what im wondering is has joni ever mentioned natalie in any interviews because i think if they did a song together it would be great!!!! thanks for any info anyone!!! - ---JMDL Digest wrote: > > > JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 12 1999 Volume 04 : Number 020 > > > > The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes > by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery > username: jimdle password: siquomb > ------- > The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at > http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, > original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. > ------- > The JMDL website can be found at and contains > interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. > ========== > > TOPICS and authors in this Digest: > -------- > Re: de-lurking [M.Russell@iaea.org] > Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) ["Kakki" ] > Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [philipf@tinet.ie] > The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) [M.Russell@iaea.or] > NJC..Cat Stevens-NJC [MP123A321@aol.com] > RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] > Rolling Thunder Logbook ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] > Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] > Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) [Jerry Notaro ] > Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas [Jerry Notaro ] > Re[2]: hippie-s**t (VLJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] > Re: Joni memories! [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] > charge for internet (NJC) [Mark Klempner ] > hippie s**t (lots of JC) [Mark Klempner ] > Re: Punk's roots [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] > Re: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) [TerryM2442@ao] > Re[2]: hippie s**t NJC (Big Bands) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] > Re: American Music Awards [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] > Re: American Music Awards [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] > RE: American Music Awards (absolutely NJC) [Michael Yarbrough Re: de-lurking ["John M. Lind" ] > TTT Review in Dirty Linen [Steve Dulson ] > RE: hip-hop lexicon (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] > Re: American Music Awards [IVPAUL42@aol.com] > Re: American Music Awards (absolutely NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] > re: hippie s**t (vljc) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] > Cat Stevens (NJC) [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons)] > Re[2]: American Music Awards [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] > Joni -- not such a gay diva [Bounced Message ] > Joni and Paris [MDESTE1@aol.com] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:18:03 +0100 > From: M.Russell@iaea.org > Subject: Re: de-lurking > > > I have been lurking for several months now, and I > > have really enjoyed learning more and more about > > one of my favorite musicians. > > Welcome, Leah! Hope we'll hear more from you! > > > I am seventeen, a student abroad (in London), and > > my respect for Joni's music has grown so much from > > reading all of your posts. My first Joni cd was NRH, > > then Misses, then Hits, then Blue, and now STAS. > > You are so lucky to have so much of Joni's music still to discover! STAS is > truly a masterpiece - each song is a jewel. I find FTR and Hejira kind of > like that, too. Those would be my next Joni investments, if I were you. > > > I play guitar, and love CSN, Paul Simon, James Taylor, and America. > > You should check out Michael Hedges. I just discovered him. He is like a > male Joni, only sadly he died in 1997(?) in a car accident. My next musical > investments will be all of his recordings. The vinyl album I have is called > Watching My Life Go By. I'm trying to learn Streamlined Man on my guitar, > but it is rather complicated. I found a tuning on his web site, but I think > it is not exactly right, so I'm trying to figure out what it should be. > > If you haven't yet, you should also check out Jonatha Brooke's 10-cent > wings. I love the first cut, Secrets and Lies, and I just learned the song > Because I Told You So on my guitar. It is a beautiful song and very > satisfying to play it. > > > Anyway, I own TTT, and I can't really get into it. > > I really try to "appreciate" it but I get bored when > > I put it on. Maybe I will grow into it. I hope I don't > > put anyone off by admitting that. : ) > > TTT is not my favorite either, although there are a few cuts that I really > love, especially My Best To You, Love Puts On a New Face, and Facelift. > There are other people on the list who *hate* these songs! There are even > people on the list who think that Mingus is her best album! ;^D > > Marian > Vienna > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:36:24 -0800 > From: "Kakki" > Subject: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) > > Mariana wrote: > > > i mean, i've plugged my favorite artists a million times (and > >i'll do it again!), but in the world of Kim Deal(!!!!!!), Janet Weiss (best > >drummer EVER), Elliott Smith, Sarah McLachlan, Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, > >Radiohead, ect...well, all that folkie guitar stuff seems so boring and > plain > >and so SIMILAR... > > i understand completely that alot of that folkie guitar stuff influenced > alot > >of the stuff i listen to...but that doesn't neccesarily mean i have to like > >it. i know Sarah loves early Joni, Joan Baez, ect...as i said, it just > seems > >so similar to me. As Michael Y. said...it just seems that if you look > beyond > >the banal pop radio, you can find so much texture and experimentation. i > too > >sort of resent the "orthodoxy" 60s rock has over music. > > Whoa Mariana! When did all 60s music get reduced down to simply the "folkie > guitar stuff"?? That was only a miniscule part of the 60s music. Michael > appropriately categorized them as hippie music but he also threw in a lot of > other diverse artists who, while quite popular in the 60s, would not be > considered, not necessarily consider themselves hippie music. Joni resisted > being categorized as hippie and likened her early music more to bohemian > "art songs." I recall that Van also disdained being in anyway lumped in > with a hippie label. When I was a young thang in the 60s my very favorites > besides Joni, were The Doors, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, various > incarnations of Eric Clapton and Van Morrison. None of their music would > fall into the "hippie" category, IMO. It would be like me now making a > sweeping generalization and condemnation of Sarah McL, Nirvana and Elliott > Smith, ranting that "they are all part of that rap music that all sounds the > same"! > > Because I've lately been more involved with replacing and filling in the > gaps of my beloved 60s music ;-D, I've not gotten around (yet) to picking up > some of the great stuff that you and Michael have recommended. But if it > redeems me any in your eyes, I listen to, and LOVE, without equivocation, > Beck, Erykah Badu and The Pixies. I want to fall in love with Elliott and I > sort of love Sarah, too, but she is just too overplayed on the radio for me > and I tire of any artist that I hear 20 times every day for months on end. > > I'm reminded of Joni's lyric "We look like our mother's did now, when we > were those kids age." > > Kakki (shaking off an uneasy image that I'm driving a big old Cadillac and > listening to Perry Como) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:36:21 -0000 > From: philipf@tinet.ie > Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) > > - -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Yarbrough > . > > Elliott Smith has melody > > Now there's an overrated fellow. Having sat through 2 of his records > and seen him live with his Quasi mates I've concluded that he's > pleasant enough in a melodic hippie kind of way. His problem is > that he lacks great songs. That other critics flavour of the month > Mercury Rev could use a few decent songs as well IMHO. > > Still, it's nice to see the hippie sound being carried on by a new > generation. > > Philip > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:13:02 +0100 > From: M.Russell@iaea.org > Subject: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) > > On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:32:35 +0000 catman > wrote: > > > That is the problem with taste. To me liking someone > > or not liking them, music wise, has nothing to do woith > > talent or quality or even race. I cannot stand rap(or is it > > hip hop now?) and it has nothing to do with what is said > > but ebvrything to do woith the sound of it. The sound really > > bothers me, like heavy metal does. It hurts almost. > > Colin expresses so well how I respond to music - how I decide what I like > and don't like - some sounds just really bother me (are even painful to > listen to) and I have to shut them off/out or find some other sounds. > Often, I prefer no music at all - just natural sounds. > > Even though I'm from the 60's era, a lot of the stuff that Michael Y. > doesn't like, I don't like either - e.g., never was a GD fan and JC is not > my favorite songstress, although the songs she wrote herself are priceless > (Since You've Asked, My Father (I want to perform this one on the 31st if I > === message truncated === _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:23:16 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Re[2]: hippie s**t NJC (Big Bands) Kakki wrote with infinite wisdom: <<>> Maybe this is the big lesson of the entire thread!! :-) - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:20:02 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) Terry wrote: >I guess what really strikes me is the idea that hippie "shit" was all acoustic >and sans melody. If memory serves me right, most of the stuff that was >popular was electrifying rock- The Who, Hendrix, Stones, etc. It wasn't until >CSN came out with their debut album that people stopped dead in their tracks >and became more accepting of the accoustic guitar. Sure, there were those who >liked Judy Collins, Joan Baez and the like, but most didn't even admit it at >the time. Anyone else remember it this way? Yep, Terry, that was how it was. As has been the pattern through my life, only the people I knew who sang/played guitar etc., would admit to loving the female folk singers. The most popular music was the electrified rock and CSN was a departure from the norm at the time (although they literally owed a few roots to the Byrds and Buffalo Springfield before them). Most people I knew back then thought Joni, Judy, Joan and their imitators did woozsie music. Even the Beatles became uncool for awhile in the opinion of my peers, (until the White Album came out, then all was cool again). The music most played at parties in my hood back then was Cream, Doors, Zeppelin, Jeff Beck, Tull and Hendrix. If I even dared to try to put on Joni at parties, there would be a huge uproar! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:46:22 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) Kakki writes -- >The music most played at parties in my hood back then was Cream, >Doors, Zeppelin, Jeff Beck, Tull and Hendrix. I will never forget the Grammy show where they dished out the "Best Heavy Metal Performance" award to Tull -- Ian Anderson gets up there with this sheepish grin on his face and says something to the effect of, "Well, I don't know exactly why we're getting this ... but it's great! Thanks!" I was on the floor ... Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:43:10 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) Don wrote: >I will never forget the Grammy show where they dished out the "Best >Heavy Metal Performance" award to Tull -- Ian Anderson gets up there >with this sheepish grin on his face and says something to the effect of, >"Well, I don't know exactly why we're getting this ... but it's great! >Thanks!" I was on the floor ... Was that the year (1987, I think) he got the Grammy for "Crest of a Knave"? I didn't realize it was in the heavy metal category. What was up with THAT? Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:04:56 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) >From: "Kakki" >To: "Don Rowe" >Cc: >Subject: Re: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) >Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:43:10 -0800 >Reply-To: "Kakki" > >Don wrote: > >>I will never forget the Grammy show where they dished out the "Best >>Heavy Metal Performance" award to Tull -- Ian Anderson gets up there >>with this sheepish grin on his face and says something to the effect of, >>"Well, I don't know exactly why we're getting this ... but it's great! >>Thanks!" I was on the floor ... > > >Was that the year (1987, I think) he got the Grammy for "Crest of a Knave"? >I didn't realize it was in the heavy metal category. What was up with THAT? > Yes it was, and I believe it was the first year that award was given, at the apex of the "hair band" innvasion. The competition were folks like Motley Crue, AC-DC, Def Leppard and White Snake. What a hoot! Kind of like Joni getting a Grammy for Best R&B Female Vocal Performance, or something ... Don Rowe > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:10:08 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) Kakki sez: <> Isn't that why some of us call our senile Grandmothers "Grammy"? Bob M, with no offense to the senile or the Grandmothers out there... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:14:45 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Jethro Tull's Grammy (NJC) in 1988 was for _Crest of a Knave_ in the Hard Rock/Metal Performance category. I guess that goes to show you shouldn't trust the Grammy definition of rap *or* metal. :-) Just for kicks, here are the other major winners that year: Record of the Year "Don't Worry Be Happy," Bobby McFerrin Album of the Year Faith, George Michael (Columbia/CBS) Song of the Year "Don't Worry Be Happy," Bobby McFerrin, songwriter Best New Artist Tracy Chapman - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:17:58 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: hippie s**t NJC (Big Bands) Kakki wrote with infinite wisdom: <<>> Then Michael surmised with wisdom beyond his years: <> Maybe so Michael, but I ain't real crazy about being referred to as an "elder"...;^) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:10:00 EST From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas In a message dated 99-01-12 15:24:33 EST, John writes: << You're dammed right I'm a straight guy who likes Joni Mitchell and whoever doesn't like it can kiss my hairy butt! Urrrp! {scratch, scratch, scratch} Where's my beer?! ;-) >> This is what I call boosting something up and then pulling the proverbial carpet out! LOL. :-) Just when we saw a glimmer of hope and sensivity for str8 guys everywhere... P.S. I'm a straight girl that likes Joni Mitchell and I'm not sure what that means! NP: Last time I saw Richard. (Was he straight and did he listen to JM?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:12:30 -0600 From: Diana Duncan Subject: Re:NJC Cat Stevens/Hippie music At 08:41 PM 1/11/1999 -0500, David Wright wrote: >include musical backing, but only by percussion instruments, since it is >stringed instruments specifically that he feels are forbidden by the Koran >(or Qur'an). Oh! that's a shame. The magnificent string solo on Sad Lisa is what got me hooked on Cat Stevens in the first place. Les is right when he said >who still thinks Islam's gain is music's loss. All this talk about hippie s**t has me getting out my vinal and making cassettes of my favorite songs. Another favorite was "Today" on Surrealistic Pillow-Jefferson Airplane. I was such a hopeless romantic back then! I'm surprised how folky some of these songs sound. I thought they were wildly inventive back then! I'm back hitting the books..(got to read 3 chapters tonight) It's my last semester until graduation! Hopefully I can keep up with the mail better than last semester. Diana NP Coming back to me - J.A. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:17:16 -0800 (PST) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: The songs we like (SJC) Hi list -- I've been lurking, but wanted to jump in on this one. Michael Y is an effective agitator and I've been following this thread with interest. I agree with those who suggested that we tend to have an affinity to songs which affected us in our days of youthful exuberance, idealism, and (perhaps) naivete. I think it's fair to say that "pop" music has always been primarily for the youth of its time, and, who knows, maybe even a reflection of its collective unconscious. And I think sometimes we tend to remember the music of our youth in the same idealistic ways in which we remember our first love. I also believe that we train our ears in those early years, often developing prejudices for and against certain styles (I'm grateful for my exposure to jazz, classical, etc. during those years, and credit my parents). Many of my fondest "pop" memories center around music that topped the charts from '72 to '76 (my 12th through 16th year). When Les suggested the top 5 list I found myself immediately challenging my own ideas about what my "favorite" music is, and about what I think "the best music of all time" is. Of course my ear has changed significantly over the last few decades, I think for the better. It's been an interesting exercise: listening to that music from a fresh perspective, discovering which of those old songs I hold as genuine, or even genius, and which of my beloved old songs in fact seem now to have a shallow beauty, or no beauty at all. It's been a good lesson, too, because it's helped me to hear a little better past the production of (and my pre-conceived notions about) contemporary music, to keep my ears open for what is new and inspired, and also to better recognize mediocrity when I hear it without having to imagine that "I just don't get it." In the end I believe that the more one loves music, the more one will be open to -- and potentially enriched by -- all "good" music, regardless of style. But I suspect that most of us will have to push from time to time to free our minds from the limitations of our own musical prejudices. As a DJ I've been "forced" to continually open my ears to new music, and I think that's a good thing :-) I'll add here that, like Kakki and many others, one of the reasons I admire Joni's work is that as I go through my life it continues to resonate in new ways, and my sense of its genius and timelessness is forever renewed and strengthened. Well that's my 2 cents. Thanks again to the list for so many interesting posts. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:24:42 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: Joni and Paris At 01:45 PM 1/12/99 EST, you wrote: Now I can see her >wandering city streets. The harmonica sound in Nathan la Freneer (which I >swear sounds alot like Neil Young) was almost duplicated by a real car horn in >the area of the Musee D'Orsay. Doesn't this freak you out when a song coincides with the environment? This happened to me once with a Cat Stevens song - Dog Is A Donut. There is a dog barking in the song. When I stoppped the song and got out of the car a dog barked right where the song left off! Also there are songs that go perfectly with ocean waves. Man From Mars comes to mind. Lastly yes, I did play Free >Man in Paris while I was on the Champs Elysee. By the way Joni truly >mispronounces the name [by saying it shawn duh/lee/sae] as the French all >pronounce it Chawn zeeleezae. That might very well be from her French Canadian influence. <> > Most inspirational. A trip to remember. > Marcel, your descriptions were wonderful! I'm saving this one in my Joni files. Heather ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:52:37 -0500 From: Janet Hess Subject: Re: charge for internet (NJC) It may not be a hoax, but I'm afraid it's an instance of poor reporting grafted onto a previous hoax. For more than you probably want to know about this, check out a terrific analysis (including discussion of the CNN report) at this site: At 09:32 AM 1/12/99 -0500, Mark wrote: >Talking about political, this was forwarded to me by some friends in LA. >They say they've looked into it, and have confirmed that it is not a hoax. > >Foward: > >CNN stated that the Government would, in two weeks time, decide to allow >or not allow a charge to your phone bill equal to a Long Distance call >EACH time you access the internet. This truly sucks. Congress will be >voting on it in several weeks. This has been debated in the past. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:04:59 +0000 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) Marian originally wrote : > << But on the whole I find music very very distracting. It's hard for me to > concentrate on anything else if music is playing because if it's beautiful > it takes over my whole attention so that I have to sing, too, and if it's > not particularly beautiful or if it's annoyingly repetitive or downright > abrasive, it just makes me feel irritated - I'd rather have silence. >> then Terry replied : > Dear separated at birth, > > Amazing. I agree with everything said in your post. I don't even know how > folks can read/write email while having music on, thus you'll rarely ever see > NP at the bottom of my letters here. Wow....so I'm not mad after all? :-) I am exactly the same.....I have always put it down to the brain inflammation I suffer from as a result of chronic M.E. (or CFS as it is also misleadingly known), but maybe I'm just built that way anyhow. I find I have to give my complete concentration when I listen to music, especially as it actually gives my brain a sort of balance and refuelling that helps me to do other, more demanding mental tasks. Boy, I must REALLY sound like a fruitcase now...;-) I only manage to listen to about an hour or so of music a day, sometimes more if I feel I "need it".... Today's listening.....Hejira (Mum is ill, and I had to have something QUIET on) Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:04:23 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: hippie s**t LJC In a message dated 1/12/99 2:44:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: << how many of you who love Joni also like the dead... I'm bettin' it ain't too many... >> I could never understand the whole Dead thing... Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:20:59 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 6:28:34 AM, FredNow@aol.com wrote: >Yes, The Beatles have melody, and Elliott >Smith has melody, but who do you think signed James Taylor to his first record >deal? The Beatles. And listening to Elliott's XO album, I'm constantly >reminded of CSN and James; he owes a big debt there. why does elliott "owe" CSN and taylor? melody has always been around. it's not as if they opened the doorway for melodic songs. it seems that you are implying that Elliott's XO album would not be as melodic if Taylor and CSN hadn't been around. somehow i don't think so. i've read loads of elliott articles and i'm on the list and i can list who he calls his influences. no one owes a "big debt" to people who didn't invent anything in the first place. - -mariana NP: pj harvey, -is this desire- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:27:58 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 8:45:39 AM, kakkib@att.net wrote: >Whoa Mariana! When did all 60s music get reduced down to simply the "folkie > >guitar stuff"?? i didn't mean to imply that at all. if that was the way it came off, sorry. i was in sort of a hurry. i don't mean to make a sweeping generalization at all. i was trying to infer influence, such as the influences on some of my artists. today i was thinking more about the topic and even if i don't like folkie guitar music (used to love it), as i said, there IS alot of good music from EVERY era. big band is fun, sixties and seventies rock is fun, some 80s stuff too. all i was trying to say was, the "golden age of rock" is something i just don't appreciate. - -mariana np: nirvana, -unplugged in new york- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:35:58 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 1:06:22 PM, IVPAUL42 wrote: > Does filling in those gaps include Barry McGuire (Eve of Destruction, Changes), >who it seems to me would be the icon of Mariana's idea of '60s music? as i said, though i don't like folkie guitar stuff, i am NOT trying to be narrowminded here. i did list the 60s stuff i liked like the stones, the beatles, and the early girl group stuff like the Chiffons. i was not trying to generalize. i'm sorry if it came off that way. - -mariana ps: i don't like varry mcguire ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:32:07 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 9:47:38 AM, philipf@tinet.ie wrote: >Now there's an overrated fellow. Having sat through 2 of his records > >and seen him live with his Quasi mates I've concluded that he's > >pleasant enough in a melodic hippie kind of way. His problem is > >that he lacks great songs. That other critics flavour of the month > >Mercury Rev could use a few decent songs as well IMHO. > > > >Still, it's nice to see the hippie sound being carried on by a new > >generation. > elliott smith is *not* hippie in the least. he's heavily influenced by sixties rock (he loves the beatles and the kinks) and his XO record is very, very Beatle-influenced, but that does not make him hippie. alot of people have tried to catagorize him as folk-rock, but i just don't see it. the man makes two guitar albums (roman candle and elliott smith) and he cannot break out of the category? do we see some jonistory here? i also cannot see why you think he lacks great songs? that's your opinion and i'm not going to say it's wrong, but i just don't see it. his songs are 10X more melodic and original than any "hippie sound" songs i've heard. and another point, Quasi is a completely different band. and no one could catagorize them as folk after listening to Featuring "Birds". - -mariana NP: Sarah Mc, -New Tour and More boot- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:33:50 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 12:01:37 PM, jlamadoo@one.net wrote: >Each of the >hippie-songwriters, especially JM & jt, were accused of 'contemplating >their navel'. This meant that they were self-centered whiners. what's wrong with that? : ) everyone needs to whine. - -mariana ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:43:31 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) Hello all, I've enjoyed this thread and really appreciate, as I always do, Michael Y.'s and Mariana's posts. My opinion of specific artists in '60s and '90s music may differ slightly...but basically I completely agree with them. I also appreciate and agree with Colin's and Kakki's comments. I do think they should be tempered by the consideration that, as Michael pointed out (not for the first time): this list, like popular music history/theory in general, is skewed towards certain types of music, or music produced by certain types of people, from the '60s and early '70s. And as I've said before: I suspect every generation fights with their parents to gain acceptance of the music of their time; then once they *become* the older generation they canonize that music and the process starts over again. At present, it's the generation whose parents said that Bob Dylan couldn't sing and the Beatles and Chuck Berry were part of a Communist plot that's doing the canonizing. So I think that besides acknowledging that all musical taste is equally valid and that music of a certain era in one's life may become specially meaningful, we should acknowledge that the playing field (as it were) for this discussion is not level. Michael's critique of "hippie-shit" provokes a lengthy, lengthy thread (and well it might!) ....but nobody blinks an eye at stuff that goes by on the list all the time like "rap will be forgotten in 10 years," "Nirvana is empty grunge angst," "music by new artists today cannot compare to that still being produced by the old masters," or...ahem..."genuine junk food for juveniles!" (Nothing personal meant to those who recognize one of these quotes as their own.) This inequity is, for a number of reasons, pretty much to be expected; but for the sake of those who, for certain reasons, like rap or Nirvana or music that happens to be made by people not active (or even *alive*) in the 1960s, let's be aware that there is an inequity. Just a thought. - --David NP: Deee-lite, _World Clique_ ("I just wanna hear a good beat!") ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #21 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. 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