From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #20 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 12 1999 Volume 04 : Number 020 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: de-lurking [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [philipf@tinet.ie] The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) [M.Russell@iaea.or] NJC..Cat Stevens-NJC [MP123A321@aol.com] RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Rolling Thunder Logbook ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas [Jerry Notaro ] Re[2]: hippie-s**t (VLJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Joni memories! [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] charge for internet (NJC) [Mark Klempner ] hippie s**t (lots of JC) [Mark Klempner ] Re: Punk's roots [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) [TerryM2442@ao] Re[2]: hippie s**t NJC (Big Bands) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: American Music Awards [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: American Music Awards [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] RE: American Music Awards (absolutely NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] TTT Review in Dirty Linen [Steve Dulson ] RE: hip-hop lexicon (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: American Music Awards [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: American Music Awards (absolutely NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] re: hippie s**t (vljc) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Cat Stevens (NJC) [Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons)] Re[2]: American Music Awards [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Joni -- not such a gay diva [Bounced Message ] Joni and Paris [MDESTE1@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:18:03 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: de-lurking > I have been lurking for several months now, and I > have really enjoyed learning more and more about > one of my favorite musicians. Welcome, Leah! Hope we'll hear more from you! > I am seventeen, a student abroad (in London), and > my respect for Joni's music has grown so much from > reading all of your posts. My first Joni cd was NRH, > then Misses, then Hits, then Blue, and now STAS. You are so lucky to have so much of Joni's music still to discover! STAS is truly a masterpiece - each song is a jewel. I find FTR and Hejira kind of like that, too. Those would be my next Joni investments, if I were you. > I play guitar, and love CSN, Paul Simon, James Taylor, and America. You should check out Michael Hedges. I just discovered him. He is like a male Joni, only sadly he died in 1997(?) in a car accident. My next musical investments will be all of his recordings. The vinyl album I have is called Watching My Life Go By. I'm trying to learn Streamlined Man on my guitar, but it is rather complicated. I found a tuning on his web site, but I think it is not exactly right, so I'm trying to figure out what it should be. If you haven't yet, you should also check out Jonatha Brooke's 10-cent wings. I love the first cut, Secrets and Lies, and I just learned the song Because I Told You So on my guitar. It is a beautiful song and very satisfying to play it. > Anyway, I own TTT, and I can't really get into it. > I really try to "appreciate" it but I get bored when > I put it on. Maybe I will grow into it. I hope I don't > put anyone off by admitting that. : ) TTT is not my favorite either, although there are a few cuts that I really love, especially My Best To You, Love Puts On a New Face, and Facelift. There are other people on the list who *hate* these songs! There are even people on the list who think that Mingus is her best album! ;^D Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:36:24 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) Mariana wrote: > i mean, i've plugged my favorite artists a million times (and >i'll do it again!), but in the world of Kim Deal(!!!!!!), Janet Weiss (best >drummer EVER), Elliott Smith, Sarah McLachlan, Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, >Radiohead, ect...well, all that folkie guitar stuff seems so boring and plain >and so SIMILAR... > i understand completely that alot of that folkie guitar stuff influenced alot >of the stuff i listen to...but that doesn't neccesarily mean i have to like >it. i know Sarah loves early Joni, Joan Baez, ect...as i said, it just seems >so similar to me. As Michael Y. said...it just seems that if you look beyond >the banal pop radio, you can find so much texture and experimentation. i too >sort of resent the "orthodoxy" 60s rock has over music. Whoa Mariana! When did all 60s music get reduced down to simply the "folkie guitar stuff"?? That was only a miniscule part of the 60s music. Michael appropriately categorized them as hippie music but he also threw in a lot of other diverse artists who, while quite popular in the 60s, would not be considered, not necessarily consider themselves hippie music. Joni resisted being categorized as hippie and likened her early music more to bohemian "art songs." I recall that Van also disdained being in anyway lumped in with a hippie label. When I was a young thang in the 60s my very favorites besides Joni, were The Doors, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, various incarnations of Eric Clapton and Van Morrison. None of their music would fall into the "hippie" category, IMO. It would be like me now making a sweeping generalization and condemnation of Sarah McL, Nirvana and Elliott Smith, ranting that "they are all part of that rap music that all sounds the same"! Because I've lately been more involved with replacing and filling in the gaps of my beloved 60s music ;-D, I've not gotten around (yet) to picking up some of the great stuff that you and Michael have recommended. But if it redeems me any in your eyes, I listen to, and LOVE, without equivocation, Beck, Erykah Badu and The Pixies. I want to fall in love with Elliott and I sort of love Sarah, too, but she is just too overplayed on the radio for me and I tire of any artist that I hear 20 times every day for months on end. I'm reminded of Joni's lyric "We look like our mother's did now, when we were those kids age." Kakki (shaking off an uneasy image that I'm driving a big old Cadillac and listening to Perry Como) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:36:21 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Yarbrough . > Elliott Smith has melody Now there's an overrated fellow. Having sat through 2 of his records and seen him live with his Quasi mates I've concluded that he's pleasant enough in a melodic hippie kind of way. His problem is that he lacks great songs. That other critics flavour of the month Mercury Rev could use a few decent songs as well IMHO. Still, it's nice to see the hippie sound being carried on by a new generation. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:13:02 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) On Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:32:35 +0000 catman wrote: > That is the problem with taste. To me liking someone > or not liking them, music wise, has nothing to do woith > talent or quality or even race. I cannot stand rap(or is it > hip hop now?) and it has nothing to do with what is said > but ebvrything to do woith the sound of it. The sound really > bothers me, like heavy metal does. It hurts almost. Colin expresses so well how I respond to music - how I decide what I like and don't like - some sounds just really bother me (are even painful to listen to) and I have to shut them off/out or find some other sounds. Often, I prefer no music at all - just natural sounds. Even though I'm from the 60's era, a lot of the stuff that Michael Y. doesn't like, I don't like either - e.g., never was a GD fan and JC is not my favorite songstress, although the songs she wrote herself are priceless (Since You've Asked, My Father (I want to perform this one on the 31st if I can get through it without bursting into tears!), The Albatross) - but actually I'm not much of an unconditional fan of anyone but Joni and The Beatles. There are very few other artists where I can listen to a whole album at one go without wanting to skip tracks or change the CD or just turn the damn thing off! I have many CDs that I bought just because I liked or wanted to learn one song and I usually only play that one song. I realize that - compared to Michael Y and Barbara B and Kakki and Don Rowe and probably most of the others on the list - I haven't even scratched the surface of what's available out there to listen to because I am so picky! I realize I am impoverished that way. I'm trying to learn to listen to the radio in my office at work so that I can at least find out what's getting airplay. I usually keep the sound very low unless a song comes on that I especially like. At the moment, I really like Thank U by Alanis very much - it is my current favorite song. I also really like the song Crush! I loved Eric Clapton's Change the World because at the time it came out it expressed something that was going on with me - it's still a favorite and I bought the single, but most of his other stuff I don't care for that much, even My Father's Eyes which seems to be very popular. But on the whole I find music very very distracting. It's hard for me to concentrate on anything else if music is playing because if it's beautiful it takes over my whole attention so that I have to sing, too, and if it's not particularly beautiful or if it's annoyingly repetitive or downright abrasive, it just makes me feel irritated - I'd rather have silence. And in the end, I guess I'd rather learn to make music myself than listen to someone else do it. I find the whole process of learning a song that I love and playing it again and again very satisfying. > None of which says anything about the quality or otherwise > of performers, nor of the 'quality' of my taste. ikt just says I > do not like particular sounds. > This is what makes humans so diverse-what moves someone > leaves another cold. This is so true. There are songs that I love dearly that the people I love the most despise. I find it fascinating that, although we are so close, our tastes are so completely different. Well these are just some thoughts inspired by Colin's post. I'd be interested to hear what other JMDLers have to say. Marian Vienna NPIMH: Some Kind Of Trouble - Tanya Tucker ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 06:41:17 EST From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: NJC..Cat Stevens-NJC Re: Cat Stevens and 10,000 maniacs.. a recent post stated; <> The Maniacs were successful at removing Peace Train from re-issues of In My Tribe. It is quite difficult to find a cd with that on it in the U.S. The video for the song is also very elusive. FYI... Maurice a Cat listener and Sinead listener also ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:00:06 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) Jeees, I skip one digest and something NEW pops up! I'm not gonna defend the hippie shit even though it makes up the bulk of my 70s music collection. I just wanna point out that even in the 70s this same artists were ridiculed by some. Each of the hippie-songwriters, especially JM & jt, were accused of 'contemplating their navel'. This meant that they were self-centered whiners. - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:36:19 -0500 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Rolling Thunder Logbook Before I put this on eBay, I'll give you guys an opportunity. This hardback book, written by Sam Shepard, takes the reader through the head-spinning world of Bob Dylan's tour of the USA in 1977. Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell, Lou Kemp, Bob Neuwirth, Ronee Blakely, Ramblin' Jack Elliot, Phil Ochs, Mick Ronson, T-Bone Burnett, Scarlett Rivera, Allen Ginsberg, Roger McGuinn, Arlo Guthrie, Sara Dylan, David Blue, Jack Kerouac's grave, and Pink Dunkin' Donuts are all discussed. Scores of black and white photos. If it originally had a dust jacket, it's long gone.:) Buyer must agree to give me a good reference. I'll pay shipping within the USA. 183 pages. ISBN 0-670-60325-2 - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:06:22 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 3:48:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << Because I've lately been more involved with replacing and filling in the gaps of my beloved 60s music ;-D, I've not gotten around (yet) to picking up some of the great stuff that you and Michael have recommended. >> Kakki, Does filling in those gaps include Barry McGuire (Eve of Destruction, Changes), who it seems to me would be the icon of Mariana's idea of '60s music? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:33:33 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) Michael Yarbrough wrote: > > I'm willing to accept the reality that my musical opinions are not > universal. Just once, though, it would be nice to force one of y'all > to defend a '60s icon's music instead of me (and others) having to > defend '90s music again. Am I any clearer? Maybe this is just > some demented revenge fantasy on my part... ;-) OK. I'll bite. The genius of many of these "icons" is the musical and artistic ground they broke, and the huge influence (like Joni) they had on the future of music. And the personal affect their music had on millions of people to change perspective. And that their genius has endured. That is something that some of us that have been around can see and experience. That is why we continue to praise their past and present achievements. It may seem everyday now to hear a male, like say Kurt Cobain, strumming a guitar melodically and revealing personal feeling, but I can assure you it was quite shocking for James Taylor to be doing so in 1970. Ditto for Elton John. (So goes the straight/gay emotive debate.) I remember making the statement in a conversation with a few performers (white) in 1974 that I thought Stevie Wonder was a genius. They thought I was crazy. I think time has proven me right. We all understand the gifts of Lauryn Hill, Nirvana, and even The Pet Shop Boys. And even if I'm not a Bob Dylan fan, though I did enjoy his concert in Maryland, I would never question his genius, nor his credibility as an artist, just because I don't particularly care for it. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:56:17 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas Mark-n-Travis wrote: > I also > think that Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, Bette Midler and some others > that have been given this particular label have a much broader appeal. > I went through a period of the coming out process when I was disdainful > of anything that would seem stereotyped. I missed out on a lot of great > music & entertainment as a result. I've wised up since then. Garland > in particular was one of the truly great singers of our time IMHO and I > hate it when people dismiss her as a campy gay icon. Absolutely. Very underrated as a singer though she maintains a legendary status because of her lifestyle. And isn't is strange that she was so close to another great gay icon Edith Piaf, who was also such an influence on Joni. Jerry np: Eagle Eye Cherry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:09:05 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: hippie-s**t (VLJC) Jerry said: <> Jerry, This brought back a memory for me...I was at a party around the time "Songs in the Key of Life" and "Frampton Comes Alive" were riding the charts and commented that I thought "Songs" was the superior piece of work (although I liked both). This guy who heard me tried to PICK A FIGHT over my statement, probably prompted by a racist attitude rather than a musical one. Good thing it never started - I might've killed him!! ;^) Now THERE'S an idea - Come August, at Jonifest '99 in Denver, we have a huge "Rumble in the Jungle" with each of us fighting for our favorite artist (besides Joni of course - maybe we can get her to referee) and whoever wins gets to declare their artist, album or genre as the best...***I'm just joshing*** Bob M. in SC NP (NOW PLAYING): U2, "Do You Feel Loved" from Pop ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:25:15 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Joni memories! Suzanne comes out of hiding to say: <> The epidemic continues - and a grand epidemic it is!! It's starting to feel like the scene in "Wizard of Oz" where all the munchkins come out from their flowers to greet Dorothy... <> I never associated Gordon with Joni, but they're both Canadians, they were both folksingers traveling the same circuit. Pat, can you shed any light on Joni - Gordon Lightfoot connections, I remember that you played both Joni and Gordon's songs in your shows... <> It means "Now Playing", and I find it a good way to find out about new artists, to start new threads about a certain song, artist, or recording, plus it gives me another dimension to the writer. Looking forward to your next post, Bob M. in SC NP: U2, Last Night on Earth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:32:01 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Klempner Subject: charge for internet (NJC) Talking about political, this was forwarded to me by some friends in LA. They say they've looked into it, and have confirmed that it is not a hoax. Foward: CNN stated that the Government would, in two weeks time, decide to allow or not allow a charge to your phone bill equal to a Long Distance call EACH time you access the internet. This truly sucks. Congress will be voting on it in several weeks. This has been debated in the past. It will continue to arise as an issue. The big telcos -- the dinosaurs -- don't like the fact that phone calls and faxes can now be routed through the internet, which cuts them out of the loop and loses them money, and this is an attempt to regain some of the lost revenue. They will keep lobbying for this and everyone needs to keep letting their congressional rep know that this is an election losing issue. http://www.house.gov/writerep/ If you choose, visit the address above and fill out the necessary form! If EACH one of us forwards this message on to others in a hurry, we may be able to prevent this injustice from happening! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:13:30 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Klempner Subject: hippie s**t (lots of JC) Mark (in Seattle?) wrote: >That's one of the things that >struck me about the post-Woodstock Dick Cavett show. Much as I love the >Airplane, I don't think 'We are all outlaws in the eyes of America' is >nearly as relevant or meaningful today as Joni's rendition of 'Willie' >or 'Chelsea Morning'. Joni was singing about timeless emotions. The >Airplane was expressing the anger and rebellion of their particular >generation. Is one more significant than the other? I wonder... Then Kakki wrote: Ha! I will totally agree with you on the Airplane, who I also will always love, but they don't hold up after all these years like Joni's songs from that era. Joni was and is timeless and I think she strove for that all along. I recall that even in the Cavett segment he tried to get her to talk politics of the day and she demurred. She did not want to be dated even then. "The Fiddle and the Drum" was about as political as she ever got! Mark K. writes: "Political" songs, or songs inspired by political situations can express timeless emotions. Such songs do not have to become dated. Some of Dylan's songs are a good example. It's true of all art. Picasso's "Guernica" was brought on by a bombing of Spain, and it's considered one of his finest pieces half a century later. A work may have been composed in response to some social or political situation, but it can be a carrier of timeless and universal meaning. I also think we need to expand our conception of what is political. Many people argue that everything is political. Joni has never been very concerned with politics the way, say, Phil Ochs was, but she certainly has a lot of social and political commentary. Her favorite topics include Native American rights and issues, corporate interests and the way they affect the individual, and, of course, ecology. As multi-national corporations yield ever more power, I don't think we can separate social, business, and political issues. The same folks who are trying to condition us to be obedient consumers (The Reoccuring Dream) are paving over paradise and giving us irradiated though "perfect" produce. Governmental agencies had to approve this new process, and they were influenced by lobbyists and campaign donations from the private sector. Not that I'm spouting conspiracy theory or anything, it's just the way corporate interests play out in public and the political arenas. But, anyway, I think Joni is very political in a broad kind of way. Look at "No Apologies" on this latest album. If you care about people and life and the world, it's hard not to be "political." Mark K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:41:39 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Punk's roots Jason writes: <> Great run-on sentence, Jase, and the "nugget" of a great idea. I agree with you, but the "spirit" of punk also goes back to Gene Vincent, Buddy Holly, Cab Calloway, Louis Jordan, Louis Armstrong, Mozart, probably all the way back to the first caveman that tried to bang out a "new" rhythm on a rock that was opposed to what his contemporaries were playing... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:43:25 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: The songs we like and why (was Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)) In a message dated 1/12/99 6:19:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, M.Russell@iaea.org writes: << But on the whole I find music very very distracting. It's hard for me to concentrate on anything else if music is playing because if it's beautiful it takes over my whole attention so that I have to sing, too, and if it's not particularly beautiful or if it's annoyingly repetitive or downright abrasive, it just makes me feel irritated - I'd rather have silence. >> Dear separated at birth, Amazing. I agree with everything said in your post. I don't even know how folks can read/write email while having music on, thus you'll rarely ever see NP at the bottom of my letters here. I guess what really strikes me is the idea that hippie "shit" was all acoustic and sans melody. If memory serves me right, most of the stuff that was popular was electrifying rock- The Who, Hendrix, Stones, etc. It wasn't until CSN came out with their debut album that people stopped dead in their tracks and became more accepting of the accoustic guitar. Sure, there were those who liked Judy Collins, Joan Baez and the like, but most didn't even admit it at the time. Anyone else remember it this way? Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:50:37 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: hippie s**t NJC (Big Bands) Kakki, on her way to the JMDL pulitzer, stated: << My generation did not want to listen or relate to the music of our parent's generation. I couldn't bear to listen to the jitterbugging, corny, syrupy love song, big band stuff that my mother kept telling me was the most beautiful music ever created! >> Kakki, I had a good smile when I read this as it had the exact *opposite* response from me - when I was in college and seriously buying and getting into music, I started rifling through my parent's record collection and discovered the Benny Goodman, Harry James, Glenn Miller, Ella Fitzgerald stuff and thought it rocked!! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:08:02 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: American Music Awards ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:29:11 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: American Music Awards Anne so vehemently stated: <> Anne, I think part of the problem is that Rap/ Hip-hop (Michael, can you help draw the line between these two?) is primarily a studio creation and doesn't translate well to "concert" performances. But by the same token, my dislike of most of the genre doesn't cause me to dismiss it in it's entirety. To wit: 1. De La Soul: Loved their first couple records, very innovative use of samples, very melodic and psychedelic 2. Ice Cube/Body Count: This stuff rocks! The drums aren't SO high up in the mix and the guitars and bass blend to make really great stuff 3. Erykah Badu: Great funky beats, enjoyable vocals, good melodies. I'd like Lauryn Hill's effort more if the mix was similar to this, she didn't ask me though. BTW, I picked this up on Michael's recommendation... 4. Public Enemy: Although I didn't care for it, I can appreciate "It takes a Nation of Millions" for being the innovator it was, much like "Nevermind" by Nirvana. I DID like PE's soundtrack to "He Got Game", better use of melody, and of course, it didn't hurt that they kept returning to "For What It's Worth" which I was familiar with... 5. P.M. Dawn: One of my favorite groups, thought-provoking lyrics, beautiful harmonies, funky grooves. I'm not trying to write a history or a defense here, just trying to discourage the condemnation of entire music genres. Like Leonard Bernstein once said, there are only 2 kinds of music, good music & bad music. There's good rap and bad rap, there's good classical & bad classical, there's good country and bad country. And remember, everything we like we like because we gave it a fair shot... Bob M, who can post while listening to music and chew gum at the same time too!! ;^) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:16:40 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: American Music Awards (absolutely NJC) Anne wrote: <<>> Well, my first piece of advice would be to never--and I mean NEVER-- look to the American Music Awards for the best in music of *any* genre. It's the one awards show that manages to out-banal the Grammies. <<<[Rap]'s a fad and 10 years from now no-one is going to remember any of it!>>> A fad going on, um, 20 YEARS now. If you look at the historical trajectory of hip-hop and its artistic and commercial development, you'd see a remarkable similarity with rock and roll that, if borne out, means we will see rap become the most dominant force in popular music for the next 30 years or so. In that trajectory I would equate this year with the British Invasion/Beatlemania era (though obviously it's a paler version) in terms of commercial impact. <<>> There's a reason. <<>> I rest my case. No one who knows anything about hip-hop thinks Will Smith is the best of the genre. No one I know who knows anything about hip-hop thinks he even belongs on the radio. I'm sure you can think of some late-'50s early-'60s rock-n-roller who took a commercialized, diluted version of the r'n'r sound to financial success. Just think of Will Smith as that person. - --Michael NP: Beth Orton, _Trailer Park_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:18:30 -0500 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Re: de-lurking Leah wrote: >Hello Joni lovers. >I have been lurking for several months now Helooo, There seems to be a large influx of lurkers jumping into the deep end with the rest of here lately, I'm glad to see it. >>snip<< >My first Joni cd was NRH, then Misses, then Hits, then Blue, and now STAS. So what are your favorite tracks off of Hits/Misses? >>snip<< >Anyway, I own TTT, and I can't really get into it. I really try to >"appreciate" it but I get bored when I put it on. Maybe I will grow into >it. I hope I don't put anyone off by admitting that. Not at all. A lot of the "seasoned veterans" around here have had trouble getting into TTT as well. I'm guessing as you widen your musical influences it'll grow more on you. Please nobody thiink of me as a musical snob here, It's just that music is a language and just like any other it doesn't all make sense right away. Until you've familiarized yourself heavily with a language It doesn't all make sense to you and with music people commonly equate things theyv'e never heard as mistakes or bad and ugly sounding or boring. I couldn't stand things like The Residents, Sun Ra, Ornette Coleman, etc ten years ago but now, I love it. It's just a matter of become more familiar with complex chords and out-of-the oridnary scales, harmonies etc. The 'denseness' of the songs may also be a factor. So much going on it sounds cluttered and/or confusing. John~ NP "The Collapso" National Health ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:28:57 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: TTT Review in Dirty Linen The folkie magazine Dirty Linen has a review of TTT on page 68 of its Feb/Mar issue. Dirty Linen is often criticized for its un-crtical reviews, and unstated policy of "if you can't say something nice, don't review it". Well, reviewer Mitch Ritter obviously tossed that policy out of the window. Its a put-down from the beginning: "Joni Mitchell is back at the cosmetics counter...careful artifice...distant remove...", to the end: "Joni Mitchell...phones in another techno remainder buffing her nails at the keyboards." It's too awful for me to type the whole thing. Best, ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ "The Living Tradition Concert Series" (Website soon!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:03:34 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: hip-hop lexicon (NJC) Bob M asked: <<>> Geez, now I'm getting into dangerous territory. But I suppose I've made my bed, so let me give it a try... Very loosely speaking, "hip-hop" is a culture and its music, while "rap" is the actual style of vocalization. That's very loose, and some would say no distinction really exists. As an example, you would say that Lauryn Hill "raps" on "Lost Ones," which is a "hip-hop" song. You could also use "hip-hop" to refer to the B-boy culture, which includes rapping (AKA "rhyming" or "MC"ing), DJing (mixing found sounds and parts of other songs together to create "beats;" the record-scratcher types are really the DJs, while most commercial hip-hop now uses a producer, who not only samples but generates his/her own beats), breakdancing (or just "breaking") and graffiti (AKA "tagging" or "bombing"). So the question is, can you have a hip-hop song without rapping? If it's DJ only--as in a DJ using rapid-fire scratch technique to mix together a song--then yes. Otherwise, no, unless you modify. That is, Erykah Badu can't really be called hip-hop, but you could get away with calling her hip-hop-soul. Even that might raise some eyebrows. Mary J. Blige has special status as the only primarily- singing artist to be considered fully part of the hip-hop camp, not least because she pioneered the style of singing over beats that is now so prominent, and because she's the best at it. She also associates primarily with other hip-hop artists and has a huge fan-base overlap with rappers (which Erykah doesn't really, at least not to the same extent). In fact, the only connection Erykah's music has to hip-hop in my mind is lyrical--her themes and her references to the Wu-Tang Clan etc. There's more in this message to which I'll respond if I find the time, but I hope this helps for now. As a rule, never accept any distinction between "rap" and "hip-hop" offered by any awards ceremony, especially the Grammies. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:04:39 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: American Music Awards In a message dated 1/12/99 10:31:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << Bob M, who can post while listening to music and chew gum at the same time too!! ;^) >> Hey Bob, Get that gum out of your mouth while you're in class! Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:14:29 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: American Music Awards (absolutely NJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 11:17:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, mwyarbro@zzapp.org writes: << <<>> I rest my case. No one who knows anything about hip-hop thinks Will Smith is the best of the genre. No one I know who knows anything about hip-hop thinks he even belongs on the radio. I'm sure you can think of some late-'50s early-'60s rock-n-roller who took a commercialized, diluted version of the r'n'r sound to financial success. Just think of Will Smith as that person. --Michael >> If Will smith won all those AM awards, how come Shaquille O'Neal wasn't able to at least get an honorable mention? ;?) As for the someone "who took a commercialized, diluted version of the r'n'r sound to financial success," it may be an unfair comparison, but Johnny Rivers had several hits on white radio by covering black r'n'b tunes from the "poor side of town." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:22:25 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: re: hippie s**t (vljc) In a message dated 1/12/99 9:35:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, klempner@email.unc.edu writes: << I recall that even in the Cavett segment he tried to get her to talk politics of the day and she demurred. She did not want to be dated >> Yeah, I know. That's a problem with a lot of women I meet. Paul I NP: "Someone" from One Man Dog, JamesTaylor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:43:29 -0800 (PST) From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons) Subject: Cat Stevens (NJC) Les & Winfried, Thanks for supplying the group with the Cat Stevens web site info. I, for one, am not only new to the list, but new to the internet as well. Hopefully, I wasn't the only one to visit the site to bring to light some of the facts that not only people were fuzzy on but, by the sounds of it, harbored a good deal of contempt over due to poor or misinformation. I even liked hearing that his money is used to run a couple elementary schools with the rest going to various charities without the money passing through his hands. Maybe, just maybe, as we all get more accustumed to the wealth of information at our fingertips we'll develop a practice of responding rather than just reacting out of ignorance (remember, ignorance isn't stupidity). Penny ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:02:48 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: American Music Awards ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: American Music Awards Author: IVPAUL42@aol.com at fdinet Date: 1/12/99 12:04 PM In a message dated 1/12/99 10:31:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << Bob M, who can post while listening to music and chew gum at the same time too!! ;^) >> Hey Bob, Get that gum out of your mouth while you're in class! Paul I But Paul, I brought enough for EVERYBODY! :^D Thanks for the laugh!! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:30:48 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Joni -- not such a gay diva From: CarltonCT@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:16:22 EST Alan and W Evan both bring up such interesting points. As I said in my first post, I was in high school hanging out with all my straight, male musician friends who kept talking about Joni Mitchell. They talked about her as beautiful, having the voice of an angel, wanting to make love to her. They loved the picture of her beautiful naked behind on FTR. One of them lent me FTR and soon after, I started playing BLUE, a record I had bought, but not listened to, every day for months. I think what had happened between the time I bought BLUE and the time I got addicted to it was that I fell in love for the first time. Later when I came out, all the gay males I knew were into music I still don't have a great liking for: Broadway musicals, Barbara Streisand, Shirley Bassey, Judy Garland, Liza Minelli, Cher, and a number of others into opera. A lot of gay men seemed to like the Carpenters who were accomplished musicians, but definitely on the bland side (to my tastes). In the Seventies, gay men were listening to disco, a movement that at the time I found utterly repugnant (and which was really kind of fun and innocuous in retrospect). None of them knew Joni -- they had heard of her after C&S, but that was all. I didn't get the opera gene in my make-up either, and it's only a few musicals (Sondheim can be great) that interest me. Too many of those operas are tragic -- all those self-destructive heroines killing themselves over love. And those confectionary movie musicals, especially all that boy-meets-girl crap from MGM is the next best thing to a Sominex. I have always loved rock music and jazz as well as symphonic music, something which still sets me apart from the vast majority of gay men. I also like to play sports, shoot pool, play pinball, and bowl. I am delighted to read that those are some of Joni's favorite activities in the Brian Hinton book. He writes about early critical responses to her music as being "overly feminine", but to me Joni always seemed like that hetero girl who liked to hang with the boys. She talks about being driven, and that is a quality that she does have in common with other "divas" in the broadest sense of the word, strong women who are out to accomplish something. Joni had to do more than accomplish something, she set out to fulfill her artistry in its most complete sense. She superseded every man in her life as a singer-songwriter and musician. She is quoted in the Hinton book to the effect of releasing Larry Klein from their marriage so he wouldn't be Mr. Joni Mitchell. Dr. Tony Grant was a diva of another kind, the queen of the radio shrinks with a dedicated following and many men in love with her because of her beauty and mellifluous voice. She was a woman who had it all: huge career, marriage, children. And then her husband dumped her. She went on a trek where she rediscovered her femininity, and to the outrage of feminists, encouraged women to resume "natural" behaviors like quiet deference to males and the wearing of pretty dresses and home making. Dr. Grant allows for several models of femininity, most patterned after Greek goddesses. One of them is the Amazon, a woman in touch with her ambition and masculine side. Dr. Grant sees inherent difficulties for Amazons in finding and keeping mates and they may eventually assume a different identity in order to be happily married. This could lead to a discussion about the Male Lesbian, but I digress... It leads me to think of Song for Sharon, my favorite Joni song following my own "divorce" where Joni examines the life she might have lead if she had married a farmer and stayed on the plains --- if she hadn't given into her urge for going. Did she "sacrifice" contentment, peace and stability for an exciting life? What kind of music does Sharon make? Is it less interesting and dynamic because of the conventional life she has lead? Is it a bunch of silly love songs? Someone I know, a straight guy, once worked with Joni. He didn't know her from Adam, but after spending the evening with her and several other men said she was more of a man than a woman -- a long way from the Lady of the Canyons. Anyway, Joni is an androgyne, going so far as to dress up as a black man back in the Seventies. She mostly plays the guitar, considered the most phallic of instruments, and has always been caught up in her "struggle for higher achievements and my search for a love that don't seem to cease". (did I get that right, JMDL police?) She has always been the queen of duality, and to me, the living embodiment of someone who lives out every part of herself. I think what I have always responded to in Joni's music and lyrics are her deep feelings. She knows herself, feels it all, doesn't seem to repress anything. Her lows are followed by highs and she wouldn't have it any other way. That's one of her themes -- you're bound to lose if you let the blues keep you from feeling. That state is not the domain of women or gay men, but for very complicated reasons, gay men generally do feel more. Maybe it is part of our natural make-up, maybe it's a part of the more developed inner life most of us have in response to the hostile world we grow up in. The further down you've been, the higher you can fly. Our (gay men) releases from loneliness can be dizzying and overwhelming -- the coming out period is generally viewed as a celebration, and even an ecstatic time. Most artists have a feeling of being outsiders of some kind, something every gay men has felt, and so a lot of us are "creative types". I had one Barbra album back in the early Seventies, a live album she did for a McGovern benefit. She's a brilliant singer, but I have always been annoyed that so many gay men choose her as their diva. Everyone knows she is "difficult" and self-obsessed (I won't use the b word) and she makes crappy movies, most of them ending with her character getting dumped in the end -- the self-fulfilling victim. Madonna is hardly talented, but I was glad to see a younger generation of gay men choosing her as their voice. We all know that Madonna worshipped Joni Mitchell as a teenager and their lives and careers have had some interesting parallels, but Madonna is someone in charge of herself and her career and she's never wallowed in self-pity. She seems frustrated at finding a mate who can thrive in her shadow, but she seems to do most of the dumping and is no victim. Hinton's contention is that Joni's most barren period artistically coincides with her happy marriage to Klein. I must admit that my own career has been on a good track since I became single again and had some genuine drama to create from. Someday, and it's coming soon, gay men will actually look to a gay man to sing directly about their experiences -- and he may actually sing some joyful songs. I cannot very firmly connect my gayness with the songs of Joni Mitchell. Joni's songs connect with a part of me that I don't often find in other gay males but that I have seen more frequently in lesbians, straight women and straight male musicians, artists, etc. In the old days, gays looked to Judy Garland, the queen of tragedy, to express the sadness of those far more repressed times. Judy was a great talent, but she killed herself with drugs and really couldn't get enough love, enough approval from others. Joni has always seemed more secure, capable of judging her own worth. I wish she would quit smoking - that may be one thing Joni has in common with Judy, an addiction to a lethal substance. I don't know if John Kelly, the male Joni impersonator has ever been discussed on this list, but one of the most entertaining evenings of my life was going to see him in San Francisco. He manages to look a lot like Joni, and has some moments where you can buy him as her. In the audience were a lot of aging hippies, mostly straight people, and some of us gay guys (my friends) who stand a little bit outside of our own subculture. Everybody loved John Kelly, because everyone there loved Joni. One of the nicest things about Christmas this year is that I brought my guitar home and played all the Joni songs I had learned for everyone in my family. Nearly everyone could sing along, including my straight brother and brother- in-law Ted. Later in the week, I was singing Big Yellow Taxi and my brother- in-law John not only knew all the words, but supplied the chew-bop-bops. I know that some of the men on this list are gay, but I don't think Joni has ever really been or could be a gay phenomenon. She is for everyone who has ever connected with poetry and maintains the ability to feel, and ... let me be a little arrogant here ... she is for those of us with some intelligence and refined sensibilities. I don't mean that in an elitist way .... One of the things I don't like about opera is its association with the upper classes and their supposed superior eductions and refined tastes. I know more than a few gay guys with a real passion for opera, but I know a few who use it as a means of trying to escape their working class origins. I would never want to use my love of Joni as a means of establishing my superiority, but I have an instant respect for anyone who connects with her. That's usually someone that reads books and has lead a life of some self-examination. I won't ignite any controversies here and mention which artists appeal to people of lesser intelligence!  Yours in duality, Clark np: Miles Davis, Volume two of the Blue Note years ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:45:11 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Joni and Paris On my recent trip to France I had to make the difficult choice as per which select casettes would I bring to provide my musical backdrop to my trip. Sort of like the 'five favorite albums' thread that has been running for some time. This was for real. two weeks ;five albums. Actually I have some hits tapes with many songs from many albums so I bring two of those. Then one of my all time traveling albums that somehow I didnt mention in my "five favorite albums" post which is "All Things Must Pass" by George Harrison which I think is the best of all the post Beatle Beatle albums. The one side with Beware of Darkness on it is one of the all time best sides of any album anywhere at any time IMHO. During my trip it was possible to take out my walkman as we walked around both Paris and the country itself or while on the train and hear the songs and watch the scenery as I created my own MTV in my head. The other three albums I brought with me were my Ry Cooder hits tape with some Robert Johnson cuts thrown in. Let me say here there is nothing which stirs these American bones like hearing Sweet Home Chicago while sitting at a cafe on the Rue St.Germaine. [Hearing a blues song in europe also gets me for some reason]. But thats not why I wrote this. It was because the last two album tapes I brought were the ones with Jonis first five. Song to a Seagull, Clouds, Ladies of the Canyon and Court and Spark and Blue. I can not describe how wonderful the songs on these albums sounded while in France. It was almost like hearing them for the first time. The first week we were in the absolute country. A little village that only has one little road and a few buildings surrounded by farms. The second week it was Paris itself. The album that went the best with the country scenes was Blue. River, Travelin, and the basic acoustic sound of Blue created a great experience in the farmlike setting of the Loire Valley; the others went better with Paris. In fact it was powerful how such gentle songs like "I had a King" and "Marcie" were so citylike that it bowled me over . What sounds like folk music in my studio all of a sudden was a gritty urban landscape put to music. Tin Angel was playing as I walked through the Latin Quarter. What a rush. Seeing all the lovers walking with their arms around each other finding "someone to love today". Taking the boatride on the Sein at night I couldnt resist a further testing of my theory and so I got out the walker and played Night in the City. It was absolutely awesome. they had a huge ferris wheel at the place de Concord which actually rotated at the same speed as Midway. They have these big searchlights now on the sides of the boats and they flash them on the buildings as you go down the river. It is like a scene out of Bladerunner. The headphones of course provide an incredible sound. I concluded that Jonis first five albums or at least the first four are totally marinated with New York and heavy city influence. They are cityscenes. Stark citysceens. Other songs which have mystical qualities are Nathan LaFreneer which I played three times in a row as I walked the Champs Elysee and Gallery which I happened to play as we walked in the old town in Tours. There were many others but I dont want to bore the discussion list. I just had to get this off my chest. All these years I conjured up images of Joni in a cabin, in the forest, with a fire going. Now I can see her wandering city streets. The harmonica sound in Nathan la Freneer (which I swear sounds alot like Neil Young) was almost duplicated by a real car horn in the area of the Musee D'Orsay. By the way the entire area around the Musee D'Orsay is a great place to haunt. It has all kinds of artist stores and salons, antique stores, and book stores. We love it immensely. I dont think the songs on the first five albums will ever sound the same to me now that I have heard them with scenes from Paris in my mind. Lastly yes, I did play Free Man in Paris while I was on the Champs Elysee. By the way Joni truly mispronounces the name [by saying it shawn duh/lee/sae] as the French all pronounce it Chawn zeeleezae. The song 'Free Man' I think was more about the person in the song as opposed to the city.I didnt get the expected Paris video-rush connection. Free Man is actually not as Paris-like as some of the others. Jonis writing on these albums is city-like. Im not talking here about Joni purposely writing songs about a city. Im saying that as a writer the sounds she had in her head seemed to reflect the pace and ambience of the city behind the words. The song that always makes me feel melancholy is For Free. It was a beautiful musical backdrop for the busier streets in Paris particularly by L'Opera and on the Rue Haussman by the Place De Madelane. Speaking of For Free, The sad thing to me was hat there are no more street musicians in the metro subways. i was told they passed a city ordinance. Thats too bad. They did however allow the mimes and "statues" to perform on the street although they dont do it for free. the last time I was in Paris the musicians were all over the metro's and one particularly excellent group was actually doing Vivaldi at Bir Hakheim. But no more. lastly you might wonder which song gave me the most vivid and moving Paris experience. It might sound suprising but Dawntreader at dusk walking along the Seine was a mind blast, hard to beat. Also, another time we were in the St.Chapelle and as I gazed up al the windows I scrambled around and got out the walkman and sitting on one of the ancient wooden benches on the side I happened to experience one of my all time faves "Songs to Ageing Children". It was a mystical experience listening while looking up at 40 feet high stained glass windows. The one album which didnt make it in Paris was Court. By the time Joni finished Court & Spark she was totally into the LA sceen and her albums abandoned the ambience (and minimalist elegance) of those first four albums. Court is really an LA album. After that she was clearly under another influence. Maybe thats why I like Jonis first four the best. It captured more of her and less of her influencers in the final result. By the time you have Steve Lukather putting metal guitaristics and Thomas Dolby noodling keyboards on your songs you have in fact changed. And she did. I think after this experiencial sojourn (or is it Hejira) Joni has in fact finally returned to her roots, not in Canada, but in her soul. Her songs are now coming from her soul again. The ambience I am hearing on the stuff since Turbulent Indigo is a leaving of the prior phase of life behind. Hejira was perhaps the beginning of her tearing away from where she had been. Just as she had left New York and gone west. The experience I had listening to her songs in France was really wonderful I recommend it to all. It made me realize more about Joni's writing and put me again in touch with what is to me the most interesting aspect of her as an artist. She does absorb her experiences and they are reintroduced after they have been through the prism of her feelings. Those feelings include not just the thoughts but the environment itself in which the songs were written. The time in her life. The place she was at. It was almost as if I got to see Paris through Jonis feelings and with her guidance. Most inspirational. A trip to remember. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #20 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?