From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #19 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, January 12 1999 Volume 04 : Number 019 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Punk's roots [Jason Long ] American Music Awards [Anne Madden ] Re: hippie s**t NJC ["Kakki" ] Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas [w evans ] Alan's comments [w evans ] RE: Van's hippie-s**t (VLJC) [Rob Jordan ] RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) [FredNow@aol.com] Hippie S**t (NJC) [evian ] Re: My Happy Songs [M.Russell@iaea.org] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:08:07 -0500 From: Jason Long Subject: Punk's roots I know that I very seldom post on this list, and when I do, it's always rather off-topic (anyone remember the Liz Phair thread from a while back?), but I do try to read this list faithfully. Anyway, I just wanted to throw in my two cents on this. Michael Yarbrough wrote: >New wave *directly* grew out of punk, and disco actually developed >after punk, so the answer is no. Punk was a reaction primarily to >hippie music and its movement, not least of all because the hippie >"revolution" belonged primarily to middle-class bourgeouis college >students, leaving the working class out. It was also a reaction >against the lyrical naivete and artistic pretensions of hippie music, >and even more directly, the "symphonic" dross that followed it >(bad prog, etc.) The spirit of punk started with the Velvet >Underground, which was a definite urban hipster response to the >hippie stuff. They were followed by the Stooges, Television, the >Ramones, the Modern Lovers, etc. Actually, in my opinion, the spirit of punk started a couple of years prior to VU, with garage bands such as the Sonics and the Standells, or any of the ones featured on the original _Nuggets_ compilation, which was compiled by Lenny Kaye, who would go on to play guitar in the Patti Smith Group, one of the most significant punk bands of the '70s, and contemporaries of many of the bands you mentioned. (Whew, how's that for a run-on sentence?) For the record, I'm definitely not knocking the Velvets. It took me a while to really get into them, but over the last few years, I've really grown to love their work. I definitely do recommend the recent four-CD _Nuggets_ box set, released by Rhino last year. The first disc contains all of the tracks from the original double-album compilation, while the remaining three offer up a large number of additional songs in the same vein from that era, some of them well-known ("Wooly Bully," "Louie Louie"), some incredibly obscure. Jase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:34:26 -0500 From: Anne Madden Subject: American Music Awards Michael Yarborough wrote - >Of course. And this is really the point I was trying to make in >my original reference to the subject, in response to my good >friend who made a blanket statement about how crappy rap >music is. My affinity for hip-hop is to a large degree aesthetic, >but it is also related to my politics and my age. And it's a far >more relevant music to my life than that which is most relevant >to many of you. I am sorry Michael, after watching the American Music Awards show tonight I have never heard so much crappy music in my life. Don't jump all over me but ..... I hate rap music and a large portion of this show was taken up playing rap - - what rubbish. It's a fad and 10 years from now no-one is going to remember any of it! The show was so pathetic that Cher's song was probably the highlight of the show. Actually it's a very catchy number. Not bad for an old broad! I couldn't believe the number of "no shows". Will Smith won six awards including Album of the Year pleeeeeeeease! Excuse me while I throw up! Sorry to be so blunt, just my opinion. Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:24:17 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: hippie s**t NJC Mark wrote: >And also I'd like to say Kakki, you were, as usual, >quite eloquent and reasonable. Your post was great. But on the other >side of the coin, if you have to be from a particular generation and >remember the events of another era to enjoy certain music, doesn't that >make the music topical and not timeless? Yes - it makes it timeless to the memories of those who "were there" but it makes it topical, dated or worse to those who were not. I think this whole issue began with Michael questioning why some of us put the "hippie-shit" at the top of our lists. Maybe the confusion here is that some people listed what they thought were the all-time best from an objective standpoint and others, including myself chose to list my subjective favorites because they meant something personal to me. I tried to be unbiased in my lists but sometimes I slip up in the objectivity department when reminded of the old songs that affected me. So I will clarify that I, for one, do not hold it out as gospel truth that the music of the 60s was the greatest ever and nothing else compares. That would be ridiculous and very closed to think that way. It just holds my heart the most, that's all. I realize that rap/hip-hop may be the music that holds the heart of those of another generation and that is how it *should* be. I would seriously worry about (excuse me, for lack of a better word) the "younger" generation, if they did not create and appreciate their own genre of music. My generation did not want to listen or relate to the music of our parent's generation. I couldn't bear to listen to the jitterbugging, corny, syrupy love song, big band stuff that my mother kept telling me was the most beautiful music ever created! Although now, hearing some of her music in new arrangements has brought me a much greater appreciation of it. But I never would have referred to it as "shit". I just found more relevance in my own music of the day. >That's one of the things that >struck me about the post-Woodstock Dick Cavett show. Much as I love the >Airplane, I don't think 'We are all outlaws in the eyes of America' is >nearly as relevant or meaningful today as Joni's rendition of 'Willie' >or 'Chelsea Morning'. Joni was singing about timeless emotions. The >Airplane was expressing the anger and rebellion of their particular >generation. Is one more significant than the other? I wonder... Ha! I will totally agree with you on the Airplane, who I also will always love, but they don't hold up after all these years like Joni's songs from that era. Joni was and is timeless and I think she strove for that all along. I recall that even in the Cavett segment he tried to get her to talk politics of the day and she demurred. She did not want to be dated even then. "The Fiddle and the Drum" was about as political as she ever got! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:50:11 -0500 (EST) From: w evans Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas > In a message dated 1/11/99 2:11:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, > kenevans@umich.edu writes: > > << To state it more simplistic, she wrote so many songs > about men that are full of "processing," the sort of emotional analysis > that is very much the province of women and gay men, and with the > exception of the archtypes defined by the characters on the show > "Friends," not particularly by many straight men. >> > > Oh, really? > Why is it that gay men think they are the only ones with penises and feelings? > I could go on, but I don't think the statements I quote are worth dignifying > any further. > Paul I I didn't mean to offend anyone, and in fact figured it was obvious that anyone in this newsgroup, regardless of what kind of person they are, is pretty deep. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:18:19 -0500 (EST) From: w evans Subject: Alan's comments I really liked what Alan had to say about the younger generation of hetero guys, and I wish there were tons more like Alan in the world. I've had the misfortune to have primarily ultraconservative guys like my dad and brother and his friends as my primary male archetypes, and none of them would be caught dead listen to Joni Mitchell, in fact I have endured rude comments about her substantial presence in my collection. Obviously, straight guys who love Joni are bound to be a lot more sensitive than that. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 06:10:40 +0000 From: Rob Jordan Subject: RE: Van's hippie-s**t (VLJC) ><<over-rated? Or "the artist"? Or Madonna?>>> > >Very different than I would if you said "I THINK Joni Mitchell is >over-rated," or, "I THINK the Artist is over-rated." Which is what I >did: I still don't get it. You can THINK whatever you like, but to me "over-rated" will always mean: those who rate him highly are getting it wrong. You are implicitly making a comment about others' appreciation, not just your own. >WHY do I think he's overrated? Because I find his melodies pretty >but not earth-shattering, lyrics fine but not revelatory, and his >singing uncommunicative. How's that for helpful criticism? :-) That's much more helpful!! You invited up to defend Van. I'm happy to try, but I actually think it's much harder to put into words the appeal of Van Morrison than Joni. It's in the spirit, you can't capture his "genius" (hah!) by quoting stanzas and highlighting the insights. He communicates (to me) at a much more basic level. Since I know you love black music, as I do too, maybe you can empathise with this problem: how do you put into words the way the spirit is moved by Ray Charles singing What'd I Say or I Believe To My Soul? Or a gospel choir, say, the Soul Stirrers, singing Touch the Hem of his Garment (I'm an atheist, but that touches me deeply). Not to say Van's lyrics don't have their own charm. I happpen to love the way Astral Weeks opens: "If I ventured in the slipstream, between the viaducts of your dream, where immobile steel rims crack, and the ditch in the backroad stops", but without Richard Davis's fantastic loping bass, and Connie Kay's drums, it probably comes over as hippy-dippy. Astral Weeks is a voyage deep into the feelings of being young, being obsessively in love. The words and music work together to create a landscape, which I feel I can walk around in. Astral Weeks was incredibly innovative. I'm drawn to artists who have a sense of all music that came before being part of a universal expression, from which they can synthesise their own voice. Van was steeped in blues, country, jazz and Irish music, and when he got to record his own voice, it came out, not in some artificial "fusion" experiment, but as a seamless union which contains all of those, but sounds entirely fresh. Since then, it's hard to say he has innovated, because he's spent his life exploring that theme, finding a way to express musically some inner spirit, which connects us with something basic within ourselves. And, for those of us who count him a genius, he's gone on doing that incredibly consistently. In Zimbabwe, I understand that the Shona people use music to induce a spiritual trance. The music goes on and on, and gradually dancers work themselves into an altered state which (I guess) they feel takes them closer to their idea of God. For me, it's Van that comes closest to taking me out of myself and connecting with the spirit. And he does this best live. A Van live show is a very complicated thing. There are 10 or so consummate musicians there on stage, they've rehearsed, but a lot of the creation is going on there on stage under Van's control. In this sense, it's close to jazz, not in form, but in the interplay between the instruments, each intently listening and responding. Every wave of the hand elicits a response from the band. He's making up lyrics, he's repeating lines, he's singing, now quietly, now bellowing, all trying to communicate his sense of wonder to an audience. In one way, it's showbiz, as James Brown's live shows must've been, but to me that doesn't devalue the achievement of taking an audience and holding them spellbound. Rob who got up at 5 am this morning to work, not to spend an hour writing about Van Morrison! np: Astral Weeks ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 01:21:48 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) Michael Yarbrough >>Judy Collins, Joan Baez, et al; CSN; Jackson Browne; James Taylor. >>I dig melody, perhaps more than any other musical attribute. The >> Beatles had melody. Elliott Smith has melody. But these artists, to >>me, have strings of notes. When I read Michael's first "hippie-shit" post, I got a little riled up, but decided to lay out and let someone else blow a chorus. But when he claims that CSN's and James Taylor's (my God, especially James!) music is devoid of melody, just "strings of notes," I gotta step in. Michael, if you don't dig CSN and James that's cool, that's your taste, with which no one can argue. But please don't try to support your taste with specious claims like these ... they are masters of melody! The idea that they are anything less is mind boggling. Yes, The Beatles have melody, and Elliott Smith has melody, but who do you think signed James Taylor to his first record deal? The Beatles. And listening to Elliott's XO album, I'm constantly reminded of CSN and James; he owes a big debt there. And you can count on the fact that Joni would certainly not corroborate your claims at all, if that carries any weight. Just to suggest a very few examples (because I could list on and on) -- Crosby's Guinnevere, Nash's Lady Of The Island or Simple Man, Stills' Helplessly Hoping, James' You Can Close Your Eyes, Something In The Way She Moves, Carolina In My Mind, etc. ... my mind just can't conceive that anyone could seriously listen to James' entire body of work and conclude that there are no melodies there! Sorry if I sound overly stringent here, but I think I do know melody when I hear it (melody, along with harmony, are the most essential musical ingredients to me), and can't help but feel that you are either indulging in a bit of hyperbole or that you just haven't listened closely enough (which would be understandable if you don't dig them). I feel that it's very important to be able to objectively recognize artistic worth even when it doesn't match our personal taste. My sincere apologies for coming off heavy handed, but I would be more than happy to sit down at a piano sometime and show you in specific musical terms just how wrong you are about this. I would never try to convince you that your taste is amiss, of course, but that there's melody in them thar hills, and plenty of it! - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:27:55 -0600 From: evian Subject: Hippie S**t (NJC) Hi y'all, This has all been said before in a much more articulate way by various listers, but since I am stalling doing my work, I thought I would throw my own 2 cents worth in. The one thing that I really love about this list is the varying ages and experiences of list members. It is this wide range of voices that makes the community so unique. Moreover, our different tastes in music fascinates me. Like Michael, I too don't see the big deal about some of the music that people love. I too just don't get the Dead, and, I know this sounds sinful, I prefer remakes of Dylan than the man himself! Also, while I love Moondance, and I have been searching like hell to find Wavelength on cd, Van is not someone who I really am desiring to seek out in more depth (except, with all the talk about Astral Weeks, I am curious to give it a go). When I was about 17-19, I went through this whole 60's thing, and sought out some music from the era. I fell in love with Baez's Diamonds and Rust, and Judy Collins' "In my life" remake I fell in love with after an episode of the Wonder Years. Peter, Paul, and Mary are personal faves, and I really dig Jefferson Airplane, but most of the other stuff from that era just doesn't do it for me. Why? Probably because, for better or for worse, I am a child of the 70's and 80's (born in 70), and that music is what shaped my life. Thus, when Michael says he doesn't *get* the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac, that is a valid statement, and even though I love both these groups, I understand that this is because they were groups that meant a lot to me growing up. Hotel California, for example, is an album that I still constantly listen to, and "Wasted Time" is a track that always seems to choke me up. The same for FM's Rumours. Ditto for JT. Basically, as a child, I lived in the Hotel California, and the myths of the 70's through my big-ass headphones, and so I will always value this stuff over, say, Van's and Dylan's 60's stuff, that, while wonderful as it may be, didn't come out during my formative years. So, when the list slags Stevie Nicks, goddess of love that she is, I can understand that! The same holds true for 80's music. I love, love, love 80's music, especially new wave and funk, and this is the stuff that really gets to me. It may not have many redeeming qualities for most people, but I share so many memories, milestones, etc. with that music, I can't foresake it. Anyway, I think it is so cool that on this list we have people like Michael, who digs hip hop, Mariana, who digs Nirvana, and all the Van fans, Dylan fans, as well as people like Jason who also loves 80's stuff, and Lori who likes Scritti Politti. I think instead of all of us freaking out when people say "I don't get that shit you are talking about", we should all sit back and think "hmm, Dylan for so-and-so is what Fleetwood Mac means to me or what Run DMC means to me, or Tiny Tim means to me," or whatever. When I first joined the list, I was slightly intimidated by the musical interests of listers. I actually felt apologetic for liking Alanis! But, now I realize that our unique tastes are what make this so much fun. Also, this list has introduced me to music that I otherwise wouldn't have actually gone out and bought, Lauryn and Wes being prime examples of that. Moreover, it is neat to see the varied tastes that we have, which I noticed when Heather got Garbage for Christmas. Also, I am now realizing my age, and the generation gap that is starting... I mean, I listen to all that stuff on MuchMusic and think "what the hell is this shit???" or "Marilyn Manson and NIN are rip offs of Ministy and Skinny Puppy". However, I am sure there are some 12 year olds who will be sitting here 10 years down the line harping about how much Jewel or whoever meant to them. Anyway, I gotta get back to work, thanks for letting me ramble! Evian np: the Waterboys "Don't Bang the Drum" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:33:16 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: My Happy Songs On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:15:57 -0000 philipf@tinet.ie wrote: > My list of the day is tunes to make you feel better. When > I need a lift I reach for the old reliables. All of these are > guaranteed to heal. You don't have to keep them away > from children but they do carry an IMHO warning. Please add Michael Hedges' Streamlined Man to your list. I *love* this song - - makes me want to skip down the street! Marian Vienna NP - Bird Song - Linda Waterfall ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #19 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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