From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #18
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Monday, January 11 1999 Volume 04 : Number 018
The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes
by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery
username: jimdle password: siquomb
-------
The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Re[2]: hippie-s**t (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" [Randy Remote ]
RE: Cat Stevens (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ]
re: hippie s**t NJC [Don Sloan ]
hippie-s**t [klempner@email.unc.edu (Mark Klempner)]
Re: Profile (njc) [AzeemAK@aol.com]
RE: JMDL Digest V4 #17 [Louis Lynch ]
Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" [AzeemAK@aol.com]
Re: Bacharach, Costello, Joni, Grace Of My Heart [AzeemAK@aol.com]
Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Rob Jordan ]
Re: Beck & Bonnie [AzeemAK@aol.com]
RE: Cat Stevens (NJC) [Diana Duncan ]
RE: hippie-s**t (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ]
Joni Tribute Album ["Peter Holmstedt" ]
CD store story ["Alan Parsons" ]
Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" [catman ]
Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas [catman ]
NJC: In defense of Cat Stevens [Les Irvin ]
Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Les Irvin ]
Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) [catman ]
Re: Joni vs Gay Divas (some Joni content) [catman ]
Re: Before everyone REALLY hates me... [philipf@tinet.ie]
Re: Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam (NJC) [David Wright ]
Re: hippie s**t NJC [Travis Moser ]
Re: My Happy Songs [Joseph Palis ]
Re: Subject:Cover tunes [Joseph Palis ]
Re: joni covers ["Steve Garrison" ]
Re: My Happy Songs ["Steve Garrison" ]
Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas [Mark-n-Travis ]
Re: Subject:Cover tunes [Mark-n-Travis ]
Joni memories! [Bounced Message ]
Re: My Happy Songs [Ginamu@aol.com]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:38:16 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: hippie-s**t (NJC)
Michael fears:
<>
Far from it, Michael - I enjoyed your articulation of the whole issue. The music
world NEEDS more writers with your passion and insight. And I think rite of
passage *does* have a lot to do with it...whatever you're listening to at
certain times of your life will always hold a special place for you. The first
songs I heard on the radio when I got my driver's license and drove all by
myself were "Love's Theme" by the Barry White Love Unlimited Orchestra &
"Laughter in the Rain" by Neil Sedaka. As cheesy as those songs are, I'll always
love them because they remind me of the freedom I felt in that situation...
Bob
NP: "If It's Magic", Tuck & Patti
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:18:17 -0800
From: Randy Remote
Subject: Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett"
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd heard Cat Stevens died a few years ago.
> Am I wrong?
> Paul I
He didn't die, but he supported the murder of Salmon Rushdie, author of "The
Satanic Verses". His exact quote was "The Koran makes it clear, anyone who
defames the prophet must die". When I heard that I decided to boycott him
forever. Peace Train my ass!
RR
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:28:56 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: Cat Stevens (NJC)
Randy Remote wrote:
<<<[Cat Stevens] didn't die, but he supported the murder of
Salmon Rushdie, author of "The Satanic Verses". His exact
quote was "The Koran makes it clear, anyone who defames
the prophet must die". When I heard that I decided to boycott
him forever. Peace Train my ass!>>>
And this is why the 10,000 Maniacs cover of "Peace Train"
disappeared from later pressings of _In My Tribe_.
If he's sworn off his old identity as Cat Stevens, has he sworn
off the songwriting royalties he receives from his former
identity? ;-)
- --Michael, who adds Mr. Stevens to that list of nauseating
hippie-era artists (IMO, of course)
NP: Beck, _Mutations_
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:27:02 -0800
From: Don Sloan
Subject: re: hippie s**t NJC
Kakki wrote in part:
> I had a sense that you might react to some of this music as naive and
> indulgent and can see how it might appear that way in the context of today's
> music and socio-politico culture. I think one has to have lived during the
> times to understand or feel an affinity to some of this music.
I know we are discouraged from posting "me too" messages to the list,
but I feel compelled (sorry). I was going to add my 2 cents on this one
but the ever-tactful and insightful Kakki covered all the bases much
more eloquently than I ever could.
I think much of music is on some level an expression of the culture of
the time and the culture going on inside the head of the artist. In
other words, oftentimes "you had to be there". Just like some of the
stuff Michael likes seems silly to me, he feels the same about some of
the 60s stuff I love.
The main thing is, all of us here love music and, of course, Joni! But
Michael, "....Van very over-rated though pleasant enough"? :-)
Don
NP: Madonna: The Immaculate Collection
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:45:04 -0500
From: klempner@email.unc.edu (Mark Klempner)
Subject: hippie-s**t
Has anyone mentioned Donovan? "Gift From A Flower to a Garden"? Some
of my favorite hippie music. Also, the Incredible String Band.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:46:47 EST
From: AzeemAK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Profile (njc)
OK, I'll throw my hat in the ring...
1. Name: Azeem Ali Khan
2. Nicknames: None except Az, which I hate - Azeem's only 5 letters,
ferchrissake!
3. Original Hometown: London, England
4. School: Christ's Hospital, Sussex, England
5. Bacon bits or croutons: Croutons
6. Favorite salad dressing: I quite like Newman's
7. What do you drink: Water, wine, fresh orange juice, good English beer,
preferably with a silly name (Tanglefoot, Piston, Old Peculiar, etc etc)
8. What type of deodorant do you use: Trust - it's great, it lasts ages, and
I hasten to add that you can wash as normal, and it still lasts through the
soap and water. At least I think it does...
9. Favorite shampoo: Body Shop banana shampoo. Smells good enough to drink
10. Favorite Color(s): For clothing, black, navy and green.
11. One pillow or two: One (orthopaedic - at least that's how they justify
charging 40 quid for one :-)
12. Pets: None
13. Favorite Movie(s): sex lies & videotape, Proof, Thelma and Louise,
Midnight Run, Spinal Tap, Smoke, City of Hope, anything else by John Sayles...
14. Favorite Types of Music: Most things, except opera and heavy metal, and
I'm selective about rap; I hate anything that sounds as if it was written by
or for a committee.
15. Hobbies: Music (stating the bleedin' obvious :-), cinema, JMDL, trying to
write songs on the guitar
16. Dream Car: See 17 (but for aesthetic beauty, E-type Jaguar
17. Type of car you drive: I don't drive - there are too many cars in the
world, and they're a pernicious and malign influence. I could rant at length,
only MHO, etc etc...
18. Word or phrase you overuse: "Splendid!"; "Groovy"; "I love this song!";
"Joni Mitchell/Laura Nyro/Jane Siberry/Richard Thompson is a genius"
19. Favorite food: Imaginative vegetarian food; falafels; kettle chips; Ben &
Jerry's
20. Piercings or tattoos: none.
21. Do you get along with your parents: Father dead, didn't truly know him;
very well with mother
22. Favorite town to chill in: London, Seattle, Portland (Oregon), Sydney,
Hobart
23. Favorite ice cream: B&J's Chunky Monkey - or Haagen Dazs Raspberry Sorbet
24. Favorite soda: Rubicon exotic (especially guava)
25. What's your bedtime: Too late - anything from 11.00 - 1.30
26. Adidas, Nike, or Reebok: None
27. Favorite perfume/cologne: None
28. Favorite song at the moment: "Holes" - Mercury Rev
29. Favorite website: JM.com; Ectophiles guide (can't remember the URL)
30. Favorite subject in school: German
31. Least favorite subject: Physics
32. Favorite sport to watch: Rugby Union (on the basis that it's the one that
gets me shouting at the telly the most)
33. Craziest or silliest person you know: Can't really answer that, except
that it's definitely not me! (I have a slight reaction against so many people
jumping on the "I'm mad, me" band wagon)
34 Don't know - there was no 34 in the one I copied!
35. Favorite holiday(s): Australia, 2 years ago (English answer); New year
(transatlantic answer)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:51:05 -0800
From: Louis Lynch
Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V4 #17
Thank you Alan for speaking out for us men!
You don't have to be gay or female to have feelings, or to love Joni
Mitchell's music! Thousands and thousands of men have been fans of Joni
Mitchell for years.
Perhaps the reason Joni doesn't have such a large following of gays like
other divas is that she's brutally honest about her relationships with men.
It's just a hunch but I would imagine that her lyrics would not be appealing
to most gay women, such as those of, say, Melissa Etheridge, who sings to a
non-gender-specific lover.
As a musician, when I was still singing in the bar and coffeehouse scene, I
could not cover my beloved Joni songs because some don't work for a man. I
could cover Carly Simon, even Blondie and Benatar, but some of Joni's poetry
is specifically written by woman about man.
I'm insulted to hear people imply that men don't have feelings. That's
ridiculous. Even the classic John Wayne right-wing men have feelings about
things (even if the feelings are "dog-eat-dog"). In "Heart and Mind," Joni
states her feelings and questions the man's feelings, but she doesn't deny
that we have them! Why would you expect men to feel the same way a woman or
gay person does? I know a guy who buys Joni albums only because she has a
"sexy" voice -- good for him, let him appreciate what he will!
I am relieved that Joni seems to appeal more to individuals who appreciate
art instead of being an icon for some political group or fad following. Let
the drugsters flock after Phish and Dylan, the youngsters mosh after
Matthews, the gays follow whomever they follow.
Joni is simply one of our generation's most brilliant musicians. She
appeals to a wide spectrum of different people. That's enough for me.
PS, CAT STEVENS: The Cat Stevens web site has links to audio samples of his
new releases. Some nice stuff, different but beautiful.
PPS, Discussions about other musicians, Grateful Dead, Morrison, blues,
etc.: Every one has different tastes some times. That's what makes us
human. Every one shares the same taste some times. That's what makes us
friends.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:46:50 EST
From: AzeemAK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett"
In a message dated 1/11/99 7:47:35PM, whuehn@stud.uni-goettingen.de writes:
<< So, in a metaphorical sense, I guess you could say the "Morning-
Has-Broken" Cat Stevens did indeed die. He's still writing and producing
music though, but I haven't got a clue as to which kind and of which
quality.
Winfried,
not intending to make any kind of judgment on the above matter >>
I am willing to make a judgment, on the basis that he publicly supported the
Fatwah against Salman Rushdie. I loathe any invoking of religion to justify
killing someone who has not harmed anyone, but has simply written a book and
is being condemned to death by people who have never read it. It is widely
accepted that the Ayatollah Khomeini (who initiated the "death sentence") was
doing so for other than religious reasons. In fact, 10,000 Maniacs were so
outraged by this that they tried to have "Peace Train" omitted from any future
editions of "In My Tribe" - although for reasons I can't remember, they
couldn't do it). One of Cat's early songs was "I'm gonna get me a gun".
Funny, that.
Azeem
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:46:35 EST
From: AzeemAK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Bacharach, Costello, Joni, Grace Of My Heart
In a message dated 1/9/99 11:40:14PM, FredNow@aol.com writes:
<< And Kristen Vigard, who sang as
the voice of the Illeana character (Edna/Denise) is a real find ... her
singing absolutely killed me. >>
I agree 100% Fred, I thought she was stunning. It seems she's only made one
album, which was a bit of an 80s studio monstrosity (Monica was kind enough to
send me a tape). I can't wait for her to do another record. Grace of my
Heart was a terrific film I thought, and 100 times better at evoking the
times, the music and the people than "Velvet Goldmine".
Azeem, Freezing in London
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:54:32 +0000
From: Rob Jordan
Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC)
>> I also think Van Morrison is very over-rated, though pleasant enough.
Hi Michael: You think Van is "pleasant", I think he's the greatest. That's
our prerogative to disagree. It does irk me though that you describe him as
"over-rated" (and you're not the first!). That's such an unhelpful
criticism. What does it mean, exactly? Those of us who put him at the top
of our lists again and again, are we deluding ourselves? Does the emperor
wear no clothes, and for thirty years we have not realised?
Put another way, how would you feel if I said Joni Mitchell is over-rated?
Or "the artist"? Or Madonna?
No hard feelings :-)
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:46:37 EST
From: AzeemAK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Beck & Bonnie
In a message dated 1/11/99 1:51:31AM, gerlad@mb.sympatico.ca writes:
<< Good luck with the operation, Wally. You know there
will be a collective of positive vibes headed your way.
>>
My very best wishes too Wally. Azeem
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:06:23 -0600
From: Diana Duncan
Subject: RE: Cat Stevens (NJC)
At 05:28 PM 1/11/1999 -0500, Michael Yarbrough wrote:
>If he's sworn off his old identity as Cat Stevens, has he sworn
>off the songwriting royalties he receives from his former
>identity? ;-)
LOL! Now there's a question. He probably gives it all to his religion.
Diana,
NP: Tea for the Tillerman on scratched vinal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:18:12 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: hippie-s**t (NJC)
Kakki wrote:
<<>>
Of course. And this is really the point I was trying to make in
my original reference to the subject, in response to my good
friend who made a blanket statement about how crappy rap
music is. My affinity for hip-hop is to a large degree aesthetic,
but it is also related to my politics and my age. And it's a far
more relevant music to my life than that which is most relevant
to many of you. What I ask for is that acknowledgement.
There's a world of difference between "I think Van Morrison is
a genius" or "Public Enemy provided a political voice for me
when I needed it" and "No musical geniuses have started
working after x year" or "Of course everyone owns these, the
greatest albums of all time."
There's no denying the skew of this list,and it's certainly not a
phenomenon monopolized by the JMDL. I can't tell you how
frustrated I've been by a cavalcade of R.E.M. fans listing their
"diverse" tastes ranging from Pearl Jam to Stone Temple
Pilots, perhaps including the Beastie Boys but never a black
hip-hop band (or a black anything). So my little pretentious
mission is to try to open a few ears (including my own). I hope
I don't offend too much when I do.
Of course the irony of it all is that those who respond to me
are the most likely to be open-minded anyway, while the die-
hard fans of one or another band I've dissed have long since
begun deleting this uppity little twit.
- --Michael
NP: Marilyn Manson, _Mechanical Animals_ (even I'm skeptical
of this one...)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:11:50 +0100
From: "Peter Holmstedt"
Subject: Joni Tribute Album
What about Graham Nash asking his partners Crosby and
Stills doing " A Case Of You " ?
Take care,
Peter
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:31:42 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: hippie-s**t (VLJC)
I wrote:
>> I also think Van Morrison is very over-rated, though pleasant
enough.
Rob wrote:
<<>>
And again, that's my point. Something that's supposedly taken for
granted by many on this list doesn't seem so obvious to me.
<<>>
And the "genius" with which he is described is an unhelpful praise.
WHY is he a genius? It's not self-evident to everybody. So there's
my challenge: prove it.
WHY do I think he's overrated? Because I find his melodies pretty
but not earth-shattering, lyrics fine but not revelatory, and his
singing uncommunicative. How's that for helpful criticism? :-)
<<>>
Very different than I would if you said "I THINK Joni Mitchell is
over-rated," or, "I THINK the Artist is over-rated." Which is what I
did:
<<>>
Emphasis added.
I'm willing to accept the reality that my musical opinions are not
universal. Just once, though, it would be nice to force one of y'all
to defend a '60s icon's music instead of me (and others) having to
defend '90s music again. Am I any clearer? Maybe this is just
some demented revenge fantasy on my part... ;-)
I have to say that many Dylan fans have very patiently defended
their beloved to me, and for that I am grateful. Maybe it's the
Morrison Van's turn at the plate. :-)
- --Michael, happy to explain the virtues of Public Enemy or Lauryn
Hill or Nirvana or Madonna or R.E.M. or Pet Shop Boys or....
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:56:43 -0600
From: "Alan Parsons"
Subject: CD store story
Remember when it would be "Record store story?" I don't :)
I went to my favorite used CD exchange near campus, which is the best place
to replace scratched/skipping CDs, and I was surprised to see a handful of
Joni CDs. I've checked here before, and they are few and far between, so I
picked up Turbulent Indigo and For The Roses, both of which, I'm ashamed to
admit, I never owned. (In my defense, a close friend did, and I borrowed
them whenever I felt like it). Going to the register, the clerk and I got
into a discussion on her work. He knew of her earlier work, and loved it,
so was excited to see her and Dylan in concert. He then started trashing
her performance as jazzy and sappy, and said that he was glad to see her go.
Of course, he's a huge Dylan fan. I had to laugh, knowing of my recent
postings on Dylan. I went to her defense, of course, and used the argument
tht her style of expressing herself has changed over the years, but that it
doesn't negate the brilliance of her earlier or later careers. Which is the
exact opposite of what I said about Prince (Yes, I'm admitting I was wrong).
The whole experience also reminded me that we're all entitled to our tastes.
I left joking with him, after I agreed that Dylan does have a way of
speaking to you, while he agreed that the pure genius of Joni's work until
about 1980ish (where he started notlistening to her jazzier stuff) is not to
be discounted. We then agreed that Eric Clapton was a master at blues
guitar. Given everyone voiing their opinion on things, I just thought I'd
share.
Alan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:59:55 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett"
No he is not dead. He calls himself Yusaf or something and often appears
on TV to speak up for Muslims.
Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com wrote:
> Paul proposed:
>
> < ago. Am I wrong? >>
>
> Paul, I know he switched to Islamic religion and disavowed his
> former life as Cat Stevens, but I don't think he's assumed room
> temperature as yet...
>
> Bob
>
> NP: Timbuk 3, "Legalize Our Love"
- --
CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:01:44 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas
Well I don't see how the penis bit got in there but whilst i agree that not all
str8 men are ignorant of feelings, there own and others, it does come across that
way.
IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/11/99 2:11:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> kenevans@umich.edu writes:
>
> << To state it more simplistic, she wrote so many songs
> about men that are full of "processing," the sort of emotional analysis
> that is very much the province of women and gay men, and with the
> exception of the archtypes defined by the characters on the show
> "Friends," not particularly by many straight men. >>
>
> Oh, really?
> Why is it that gay men think they are the only ones with penises and feelings?
> I could go on, but I don't think the statements I quote are worth dignifying
> any further.
> Paul I
- --
CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:06:55 -0700
From: Les Irvin
Subject: NJC: In defense of Cat Stevens
At 03:18 PM 1/11/99 , Randy wrote:
>He didn't die, but he supported the murder of Salmon Rushdie, author of "The
>Satanic Verses". His exact quote was "The Koran makes it clear, anyone who
>defames the prophet must die". When I heard that I decided to boycott him
>forever. Peace Train my ass!
Actually, Cat Stevens did not actually call for Rushdie's death. From the
Cat Stevens website, I found this snip from Cat/Yusuf's official press
release re: the incident:
"On 21st February, I was speaking to a group of students at the
Kingston Polytechnic, and in response to a question, I simply
stated the
Islamic ruling on the Rushdie affair. Suddenly, my picture was
splashed on the front page of newspapers all over the world next to the
headline: 'Kill Rushdie says Cat Stevens'. It is very sad to see such
irresponsibility from the 'free press' and I am totally abhorred."
The full statement is here: http://catstevens.com/articles/pressrelease.html
Les, who still thinks Islam's gain is music's loss.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:10:27 -0700
From: Les Irvin
Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC)
At 02:06 PM 1/11/99 , Kakki eloquently wrote:
>I had a sense that you might react to some of this music as naive and
>indulgent and can see how it might appear that way in the context of today's
>music and socio-politico culture. I think one has to have lived during the
>So now some of us look back on that music fondly and nostalgically, but for
>very valid reasons. It brought us some small dose of beauty in an ugly
>world, it gave us hope, and much of it inspired us and helped us to feel
>that we did have a voice.
I must say that this is one of the most eloquent and moving descriptions of
the era that I have ever heard! I nominate Kakki for this month's JMDL
Pulitzer.
Les
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:32:35 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)
That is the problem with taste. To me liking someone or not liking them,
music wise, has nothing to do woith talent or quality or even race. I
cannot stand rap(or is it hip hop now?) and it has nothing to do with what
is said but ebvrything to do woith the sound of it. The sound really
bothers me, like heavy metal does. It hurts almost.
I cannot stand Dylan either and would switch off very quickly as I would
the rap/metal.
It all has to do with how the sounds made resonate within me. If the sound
is dreadful to my ear, then what they are saying doesn't get communicated.
I equally cannot abide Opera singers. as i have said before, my cats on
heat sound better to me.
None of which says anything about the quality or otherwise of performers,
nor of the 'quality' of my taste. ikt just says I do not like particular
sounds.
This is what makes humans so diverse-what moves someone leaves another
cold.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:32:52 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: Joni vs Gay Divas (some Joni content)
Alan-I agreed with most of that. I think it also needs to be remembered that
wehilst some women bemoan the lack of emotional honesty/knowledge in men, they
do actually have the powerer to change that as they get to do most of the
rearing. I know a lesbian woman who tells her son off when he displays his
feelings'don't be a sissy' she says!!!!
I find that gobsmacking.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:32:49 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #17
I didn't think that it was written that str8 men do not have feelings. They are
human so pof course they have. I thought the person was saying that str8 men
have difficulty with feeling feelings and expressing them honestly-like reacting
with anger and violence when a cry or feeling sad or humilated or whatever may
have been more appropriate.
Just for the record, although my partner of 17 1/2 yrs, John, is gay, we have
many of the same problems in pour relationship as my str8 girlfriends do with
their husbands. Apart from being in love with me, John is very much a str8 man
in his attitudes to emotions and sex(except he does not sleep around) and money
and whose job is whose etc. It has taken quite a bit of working out! He was
brought up in the North where men are men and women do as they are told, at
least in his generation. He has been considered by his family, nuclear and
extended, to be the head of the family since the death of his Dad 25 yrs ago.
His aunts, sisters, mother, neices, nephews etc all turn to him for advice,
decisions etc. Weird but that is the way it is. Mind you it hads it's up side-I
get to saty at home and live off his money as he is the breadwinner!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:42:15 -0000
From: philipf@tinet.ie
Subject: Re: Before everyone REALLY hates me...
- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Yarbrough
>(And if y'all would do the same with hip-hop I'd be a lot happier. :-) )
>
>--Michael
I like hip hop and Judy Collins.
Philip
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:41:39 -0500 (EST)
From: David Wright
Subject: Re: Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam (NJC)
Les wrote:
> I also heard that he was going to come out with a new album
> of Islamic tunes - 2 or 3 of which he penned himself. Did anyone else hear
> about this?
Yes, I heard that. Apparently they will constitute his first new
*musical* release since his conversion? I think I read that they will
include musical backing, but only by percussion instruments, since it is
stringed instruments specifically that he feels are forbidden by the Koran
(or Qur'an).
- --David
NP: Red House Painters, _Songs for a Blue Guitar_
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:37:14 EST
From: Marilune@aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC)
In a message dated 1/11/99 4:38:50 PM, mwyarbro@zzapp.org wrote:
>Kakki asked:
>
><<>>
>
>Well, I'll start with the stuff I do like to make it a little less offensive.
>:-) Obviously I'm a big fan of Joni, and I've also gotten into the Who
>over the past few months. I like what I've heard of Jefferson Airplane,
>dig Simon and Garfunkel (in small doses) and am slowly but
>steadily learning to appreciate Dylan. Of course I love the Beatles
>as well.
>
>Most of the stuff I don't like irritates me either because it is syrupy
>and naive or indulgent and arrogant. The first category would include
>Judy Collins, Joan Baez, et al; CSN; Jackson Browne; James Taylor.
>The exemplar of the second category is the Grateful Dead; it also
>includes Eric Clapton, Allman Bros. and [gulp] the Rolling Stones.
>Flat-out boring (IMO) artists who fit in both categories include
>Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles (both of whom I know came a little
>after hippiedom, but their fan-base overlaps significantly.) I also think
>Van Morrison is very over-rated, though pleasant enough. You get
>my drift.
>
>Now before I'm forced to eat all those feathers I've ruffled, I will say
>that almost all of these artists have a song or two I've enjoyed (like
>Eric Clapton's "Promises," the Stones' "Paint It, Black"). And
>most of them I've given significant chances--I own the entire four-
>disc Clapton _Crossroads_, the Allman Bros. _Live at Fillmore_
>stuff, and have even traded with members of this list for live shows
>by some of the others. And the vast majority of it sounds
>indistinguishable from the rest of its contemporaries (to me). I'm
>a much bigger fan of punk's no-frills and especially post-punk's
>experimental approaches, with lots of exciting, original sounds,
>rhythms, melodies, chord changes, etc.--but without the pomposity
>(sometimes). These are the attributes of Joni's music I appreciate
>along with her gift for strong and memorable melody (which is why
>I love the Beatles, of course, and S&G) and not-too-sentimental
>lyrics.
>
>I also resent the overwhelming orthodoxy (more dominant outside
>this list than on it, but still present here) that the '60s were the
>golden age of non-classical, non-jazz music. Excepting Joni and
>the Beatles, I think the best "rock" (narrowly-defined) music before
>1975 was made before 1960 (Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, etc.)
>And I think the vast breadth, vision and quantity of good music
>since the mid-70s dwarfs that which preceded it.
>
>Guess who's the most unpopular JMDLer now? :-)
>
>--Michael
>
>NP: Quasi, _Featuring "Birds"_ (with strong melodies and
>experimental textures ;-) )
>
Don't worry Michael, i've got your back. i am in complete agreement with you
(maybe not with about the Stones, but...). alot of "hippie-s**t" is
obnoxiously similar and self-indulgent. pop music never changes, i
suppose...one person gets a hit, everyone tries to follow the formula. thus we
get young female "singer/songwriters" following the Jewel/Alanis formula
(neither of whom can write a good song IMHO...i mean come on! have you heard
"Hands"? how about "Thank U"?). and we also get johnny-cum-latelies Nirvana
wannabes Bush to the grunge scene.
so put this pattern back 30 years and what do you get? the same damn thing.
sure there's some genuinely good music (like the Beatles and my pers. 60s
faves The Doors...i also quiet like alot of the girl group stuff like the
Chiffons), but alot of it seems banal and no matter how "beautiful" or
"groundbreaking" it was, i just can't see it. maybe i'm too jaded by the music
i listen to. i mean, i've plugged my favorite artists a million times (and
i'll do it again!), but in the world of Kim Deal(!!!!!!), Janet Weiss (best
drummer EVER), Elliott Smith, Sarah McLachlan, Kurt Cobain and Nirvana,
Radiohead, ect...well, all that folkie guitar stuff seems so boring and plain
and so SIMILAR...
i understand completely that alot of that folkie guitar stuff influenced alot
of the stuff i listen to...but that doesn't neccesarily mean i have to like
it. i know Sarah loves early Joni, Joan Baez, ect...as i said, it just seems
so similar to me. As Michael Y. said...it just seems that if you look beyond
the banal pop radio, you can find so much texture and experimentation. i too
sort of resent the "orthodoxy" 60s rock has over music. pop/rock didn't die in
1979. although i am not too fond of 80s music, i can generally say i like punk
(it's a human thing) and i do like nice-middle-of-the-road-pop like Blink 182.
but i do love the offbeat stuff that's really pioneering (like Quasi, who def.
rawk).
alot of what i am saying will probably be attributed to age. i'm too young to
appreciate or i didn't live through the 60s so i can't judge properly. and i
can't. but remember, this is art we're talking about. and there is no right
and wrong in art. there are only opinions. maybe when i am 40 years old, i
will pine for the golden age of 90s rock.
it's true the creativity in music has been slow lately, but it's gotten much
much better with the emergence of creative, experimental bands and
songwriters. you've just got to find what you like.
i'd like to tell a story about a friend of mine's dad...we had a big
conversation about music. it was so refreshing to talk about the pixies and
sonic youth with someone over 30. he said to me that sure he likes the old
stuff...he likes the new stuff too. it's important to keep an open mind. at
least that's what i've learned. as i said, i know what i like. and dammit,
that's what i'm going to listen to.
- -mariana
NP: Belly, -King- (started by the amazing Tanya Donelly of Throwing Muses and
Breeders)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:48:42 EST
From: Marilune@aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: Cat Stevens (NJC)
In a message dated 1/11/99 10:31:50 PM, mwyarbro@zzapp.org wrote:
>If he's sworn off his old identity as Cat Stevens, has he sworn
>off the songwriting royalties he receives from his former
>identity? ;-)
>
>--Michael, who adds Mr. Stevens to that list of nauseating
>hippie-era artists (IMO, of course)
>
>NP: Beck, _Mutations_
My mum makes me sit through her best of Cat Stevens album in the car. funny
how she makes me sit through her music but takes mine. she's basically
stealing all my Sarah Mc albums and boots. but that's okay. sarah's yummy
enough to share. Cat Stevens isn't *that* nauseating. but those pictures of
him wearing straings of flowers on the inside cover are.
I find Beck's new album much more appetizing.
- -mariana
NP: Sleater Kinney, -Call The Doctor
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:56:05 EST
From: Marilune@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC)
In a message dated 1/12/99 12:36:08 AM, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk wrote:
>That is the problem with taste. To me liking someone or not liking them,
>music wise, has nothing to do woith talent or quality or even race. I
>cannot stand rap(or is it hip hop now?) and it has nothing to do with what
>is said but ebvrything to do woith the sound of it. The sound really
>bothers me, like heavy metal does. It hurts almost.
>I cannot stand Dylan either and would switch off very quickly as I would
>the rap/metal.
>It all has to do with how the sounds made resonate within me. If the sound
>is dreadful to my ear, then what they are saying doesn't get communicated.
>
>I equally cannot abide Opera singers. as i have said before, my cats on
>heat sound better to me.
>
>None of which says anything about the quality or otherwise of performers,
>nor of the 'quality' of my taste. ikt just says I do not like particular
>sounds.
>
>This is what makes humans so diverse-what moves someone leaves another
>cold.
You, my dear, have got the right idea. and rap and hip-hop are different,
though i'll leave it up to the hip hop expert to tell us why.
- -mariana
NP: Amps, -Pacer-
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:54:01 EST
From: Marilune@aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (VLJC)
In a message dated 1/11/99 11:31:20 PM, mwyarbro@zzapp.org wrote:
>I'm willing to accept the reality that my musical opinions are not
>universal. Just once, though, it would be nice to force one of y'all
>to defend a '60s icon's music instead of me (and others) having to
>defend '90s music again. Am I any clearer? Maybe this is just
>some demented revenge fantasy on my part... ;-)
>
>I have to say that many Dylan fans have very patiently defended
>their beloved to me, and for that I am grateful. Maybe it's the
>Morrison Van's turn at the plate. :-)
>
>--Michael, happy to explain the virtues of Public Enemy or Lauryn
>Hill or Nirvana or Madonna or R.E.M. or Pet Shop Boys or....
Quasi or the Pixies or Breeders or Sleater-Kinney or FUGAZI or the Breeders or
the Amps or the Eels or...
- -mariana
NP: The Amps, _Pacer_
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:43:49 EST
From: Marilune@aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC)
In a message dated 1/11/99 5:48:41 PM, mwyarbro@zzapp.org wrote:
>ew wave *directly* grew out of punk, and disco actually developed
>after punk, so the answer is no. Punk was a reaction primarily to
>hippie music and its movement, not least of all because the hippie
>"revolution" belonged primarily to middle-class bourgeouis college
>students, leaving the working class out. It was also a reaction
>against the lyrical naivete and artistic pretensions of hippie music,
>and even more directly, the "symphonic" dross that followed it
>(bad prog, etc.)
And it has lasted in the strains of the mainstream rock bands of today such
as the Offspring and Nirvana. Cobain mocks that god-awful (in my opnion)
hippie anthem "Get Together" in the beginning of "Territorial Pissings". it's
worth a listen. in fact, all of "Nevermind" seems to be a backlash against the
mainstream rock. how ironic that Nirvana has become as mainstream as they
come...
- -mariana
NP: The Pixies, -Bossanova-
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:03:02 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas
In a message dated 1/11/99 7:01:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes:
<< Well I don't see how the penis bit got in there but whilst i agree that not
all
str8 men are ignorant of feelings, there own and others, it does come across
that
way. >>
Maybe, just maybe, it is YOU (I don't mean to pick on you, Colin, but I'm
using YOU symbolically) who is insensitive to them. Maybe, just maybe, you are
so wrapped up in your own that you are wither unaware of mine or unconcerned
about them.
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:11:58 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: Joni vs Gay Divas (some Joni content)
In a message dated 1/11/99 4:25:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
CraziAP@email.msn.com writes:
<< No matter how liberated we as a
nation seem to be, the sad fact is that straight men refuse to show that
kind of emotion simply beccause they don't want thier "manhood challenged,"
in other words don't want to be confused with being gay. >>
As I was terse, Alan, you were eloquent.
To add to your comment that I have clipped here, I like to say, "Real men can
eat quiche without being concerned about their masculinity."
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:28:05 +0800 (PST)
From: Joseph Palis
Subject: Re: joni covers
> A long time ago in Cafe Lena in Saratoga Springs, NY I heard Dave Van Ronk
> sing "Both Sides Now." He squeezed so much pain out of the song.
> His being drunk made it even sadder. What an excruciating experience.
Hi Mark,
When my professor heard "Both Sides Now" as rendered by jazz singer Dianne
Reeves, he remarked that he liked it better than any other covers because
Reeves seems to savor the lines. I told him that the lines were written by
Joni Mitchell and he was surprised because he thought the song was written
by someone else -- it is that famous but he never associated it with Joni.
I also think that a lot of people associated "Chelsea Morning" with Judy
Collins. That's fine with me because it makes the song more enduring.
Joseph
Strange how potent cheap music is -- Noel Coward
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:25:36 -0800
From: Travis Moser
Subject: Re: hippie s**t NJC
Don Sloan wrote:
But
> Michael, "....Van very over-rated though pleasant enough"? :-)
>
When I saw Van play with Bob & Joni last May I knew next to nothing
about his music and I graduated high school in 1972. My friend Melanie
had loaned me a best of tape a few weeks before the concert. My
reaction? Well, he was pleasant enough...but he didn't blow me away. I
never have liked the Stones (maybe a few of their songs), I still don't
get what all the hoopla is about Steely Dan, Ricki Lee Jones, Elvis
Costello and some others that don't come to mind at the moment that are
mentioned frequently on this list. I guess my point is that it's wrong
to assume that any of us are going to be crazy about any other artist or
group of artists just because we love Joni. Joni crosses a lot of
borderlines in her appeal. And quite frankly I sometimes get annoyed at
the implied assumption that everybody agrees that these particular
artists are essential listening. I never have liked being told what I
should or should not read, listen to, think or do. But that's my
problem & mostly I don't sweat it. I just let it go. But Michael Y has
expressed some definite opinions here & I say, you go, Michael! You're
certainly entitled. And also I'd like to say Kakki, you were, as usual,
quite eloquent and reasonable. Your post was great. But on the other
side of the coin, if you have to be from a particular generation and
remember the events of another era to enjoy certain music, doesn't that
make the music topical and not timeless? That's one of the things that
struck me about the post-Woodstock Dick Cavett show. Much as I love the
Airplane, I don't think 'We are all outlaws in the eyes of America' is
nearly as relevant or meaningful today as Joni's rendition of 'Willie'
or 'Chelsea Morning'. Joni was singing about timeless emotions. The
Airplane was expressing the anger and rebellion of their particular
generation. Is one more significant than the other? I wonder...
Mark in Seattle
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:39:37 +0800 (PST)
From: Joseph Palis
Subject: Re: My Happy Songs
My own private happy songs :)
1) Just You Just Me - Ella Fitzgerald
This song was a contest between Ella and the Marty Paich Dektette as to
who can outclass who. Ella won hands down by scatting ultra fast which
seems to wheedle the hard-swinging band. Makes me happy. Everytime.
2) You Happy Puppet - 10,000 Maniacs
Arguably the most high-minded and under-rated album of the Maniacs that
flopped in 1989. The song may be too preachy but the musical arrangements
particularly the opening is so enjoyable. That makes me smile.
3) Someone's Been Sending Me Flowers - Blossom Dearie
Okay, okay, its not fair because this song is so uproariously funny that
whoever sings it is wont to bring out the humor in the song. Blossom
Dearie's quavery and waif-like voice is so effective. Cracks me everytime.
4) I'm Happy - Manfredo Fest
Although a scat-vocalese, this piano-based melody is so tongue-in-cheek
and very jocular one can't help but imagine that pianist Fest is smiling
from ear to ear while doing this piece.
5) You on My Mind - Swing Out Sister
Very danceable although there is a hint of unrequited love in the message.
The orchestra managed to have a romping good time.
Joseph
Strange how potent cheap music is -- Noel Coward
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:21:57 +0800 (PST)
From: Joseph Palis
Subject: Re: Subject:Cover tunes
> The song that sticks in my mind as ideal for Rickie Lee Jones to cover, is
> 'Twisted', but that wasn'r written by Joni, so I suppose it does not count.
> It just seems to have been associated with her for as long as I have ever
> heard it.
>
Paul,
That's right. It seems that the Wardell Gray tune which was first
vocalized by Annie Ross was always associated with Joni. In fact, I read a
magazine somewhere that when soul singery Crystal Waters (sp?) sang that
song in her album, it was mentioned that "(Crystal) remade Joni's song."
Joseph
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:21:59 -0500
From: "Steve Garrison"
Subject: Re: joni covers
Veteran jazz guitarist Pat Martino in 1997 put out an album of duets (some
slightly augmented) called "All Sides Now" in which he performed with such
diverse artists as Charlie Hunter, Joe Satriani, Les Paul, Tuck Andress, the
late Michael Hedges, Mike Stern and Kevin Eubanks. But the clear highlight
of the effort was the not-quite-the-title cut, "Both Sides Now," with
smoky-voiced Cassandra Wilson. If over the years you've ever dismissed the
song as a bit of formulaic Joni Juvenilia, this is a version to freshen your
ears.
Steve
- ----------
>When my professor heard "Both Sides Now" as rendered by jazz singer Dianne
>Reeves, he remarked that he liked it better than any other covers because
>Reeves seems to savor the lines. I told him that the lines were written by
>Joni Mitchell and he was surprised because he thought the song was written
>by someone else -- it is that famous but he never associated it with Joni.
\
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:30:31 -0500
From: "Steve Garrison"
Subject: Re: My Happy Songs
"We Came To Play" by the Persuasions. Start to finish soul-drenched,
life-affirming street corner symphony including some of the "feel-goodest"
sad-songs you'll ever hear.
- ----------
>My list of the day is tunes to make you feel better. When
>I need a lift I reach for the old reliables. All of these are
>guaranteed to heal.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:30:41 -0800
From: Mark-n-Travis
Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas
w evans wrote:
>
> Clark, thanks for bringing that up.... I have never understood why joni
> doesn't seem to have the so-called "gay diva" following that those other
> women have...
Well leaving aside the whole thorny issue of who has feelings & who
doesn't, as a gay man I have to say that I never liked the idea of Joni
as a gay diva. I think her appeal is much broader than that. I also
think that Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, Bette Midler and some others
that have been given this particular label have a much broader appeal.
I went through a period of the coming out process when I was disdainful
of anything that would seem stereotyped. I missed out on a lot of great
music & entertainment as a result. I've wised up since then. Garland
in particular was one of the truly great singers of our time IMHO and I
hate it when people dismiss her as a campy gay icon.
I have always felt as if I could have written so many of her
> songs from my own experience if I had the talent (Esp. Last Time I Saw
> Richard, I Had A King, Down To You, Help Me.) To me it seems that Joni's
> experience as a VERY liberated woman in the throes of the long-ago 70s
> heterosexual revolution, with all of its confusion about just What Is
> Love? and wondering if all this freedom, newly burst forth, is really
> making her happy, this experience detailed in her songs seems to me very
> similar to the gay male urban experience.
And again, leaving aside the issue of men, women & their respective
feelings (or alleged lack thereof), I do agree with this part of this
post based primarily on my own experience. I think it was a bit more
universal than just the urban gay male, however. I've said before that
Joni's honest and sometimes painful analysis of the whole confusion that
was wrought by the sexual freedom of the 70's was a big part of her
appeal for me. I think so many of us wanted that romantic ideal of love
that Joni went skating after in Song for Sharon but were so conflicted
by our desire to satisfy our sexual curiousity that we could never quite
make ourselves really believe in it. Joni's brilliant analysis of this
conflict coupled with her emotional honesty made a potent combination.
The poetic/musical genius was just as confused as the rest of us. This
made her very human & ultimately irresistable to anyone who had the same
compulsion for analysis that Joni was displaying in her 70's work.
Mark in Seattle
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:42:19 -0800
From: Mark-n-Travis
Subject: Re: Subject:Cover tunes
Joseph Palis wrote:
> > It just seems to have been associated with her for as long as I have ever
> > heard it.
> >
>
> Paul,
>
> That's right. It seems that the Wardell Gray tune which was first
> vocalized by Annie Ross was always associated with Joni.
I associate it equally as much with Bette Midler. Two different
interpretations and both equally valid imo.
Mark in Seattle
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:46:31 -0700
From: Bounced Message
Subject: Joni memories!
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:46:29 -0500
From: The Humphreys
I'm coming out of lurk mode to respond to an incredible bunch of people! I
su.bscribe to a couple of net-digests and find this one by far my favorite.
I appreciate the humor and intellect it affords--something not found often
enough these days. Anyway...standing up from my bended knee...I want to
thank Carrie for her thoughts. I had an unnervingly similiar experience
reconnecting with my Joni-history including FTR's. It was a treat reading
your encounter. I really want to respond, however, to the person who
mentioned the James Taylor/ Joni recording. Thank you so much for reminding
me of this gem (it's playing at this moment!). However, I have a very poor
quality, due to age and overuse, cassett(spell police), that I am desperate
to update. Does anyone have any idea where I could obtain another copy? I
would love to have it on CD, but if that's not possible, could someone make
me a tape (I won't turn you into the copyright bogies). I used to work at
a home for abused children right out of college, a few too many years ago.
Anyway, the relevence of this statement being that I used to sing "Close
Your Eyes" to a beautiful little shattered 4 year old with my dear friend
Peter, whom I worked with. Needless to say, this tape brought back some
very special memories for me. On another note, someone mentioned Tony
Rice's version of "Urge For Going". Definitely worth a listen to. He's a
wonderful artist who has done some terrific covers of Gordon Lightfoot; a
strange but worthwhile pairing. I am very much the bluegrass junkie, or
newgrass I should say. If any of you are out there, HI YA! BTW...what is
the NP at the bottom of so many posts? Remember, be gentle, I'm new.
Anyway, till next time....Suzanne
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:44:35 EST
From: Ginamu@aol.com
Subject: Re: My Happy Songs
Afternoons & Coffeespoons - Crash Test Dummies
And It Stoned Me - Van Morrison (This song alone could have turned me into a
Van fan forever)
Oh, Yoko - John Lennon (totally and completely jubilant...aaaah, the power of
love)
Our House - Crosby, Stills and Nash (this song is a comfort)
Love Shack - B52s ( this song makes me want to dance and dancing always makes
me happy!)
Nigh Ride Home - Joni Mitchell (peaceful, in love, all's right with the world)
Cotton Avenue - Joni
Thanks for the nice welcome letters and supportive comments many of you have
made about my recent "scarlett" posting (it actually seems funny at this
point). I'm very much enjoying the list and learning a lot.
Gina
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V4 #18
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Siquomb, isn't she?