From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #18 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, January 11 1999 Volume 04 : Number 018 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery username: jimdle password: siquomb ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re[2]: hippie-s**t (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" [Randy Remote ] RE: Cat Stevens (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] re: hippie s**t NJC [Don Sloan ] hippie-s**t [klempner@email.unc.edu (Mark Klempner)] Re: Profile (njc) [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: JMDL Digest V4 #17 [Louis Lynch ] Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Bacharach, Costello, Joni, Grace Of My Heart [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Rob Jordan ] Re: Beck & Bonnie [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: Cat Stevens (NJC) [Diana Duncan ] RE: hippie-s**t (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Joni Tribute Album ["Peter Holmstedt" ] CD store story ["Alan Parsons" ] Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" [catman ] Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas [catman ] NJC: In defense of Cat Stevens [Les Irvin ] Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Les Irvin ] Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) [catman ] Re: Joni vs Gay Divas (some Joni content) [catman ] Re: Before everyone REALLY hates me... [philipf@tinet.ie] Re: Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam (NJC) [David Wright ] Re: hippie s**t NJC [Travis Moser ] Re: My Happy Songs [Joseph Palis ] Re: Subject:Cover tunes [Joseph Palis ] Re: joni covers ["Steve Garrison" ] Re: My Happy Songs ["Steve Garrison" ] Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas [Mark-n-Travis ] Re: Subject:Cover tunes [Mark-n-Travis ] Joni memories! [Bounced Message ] Re: My Happy Songs [Ginamu@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:38:16 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: hippie-s**t (NJC) Michael fears: <> Far from it, Michael - I enjoyed your articulation of the whole issue. The music world NEEDS more writers with your passion and insight. And I think rite of passage *does* have a lot to do with it...whatever you're listening to at certain times of your life will always hold a special place for you. The first songs I heard on the radio when I got my driver's license and drove all by myself were "Love's Theme" by the Barry White Love Unlimited Orchestra & "Laughter in the Rain" by Neil Sedaka. As cheesy as those songs are, I'll always love them because they remind me of the freedom I felt in that situation... Bob NP: "If It's Magic", Tuck & Patti ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:18:17 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" > > Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd heard Cat Stevens died a few years ago. > Am I wrong? > Paul I He didn't die, but he supported the murder of Salmon Rushdie, author of "The Satanic Verses". His exact quote was "The Koran makes it clear, anyone who defames the prophet must die". When I heard that I decided to boycott him forever. Peace Train my ass! RR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:28:56 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Cat Stevens (NJC) Randy Remote wrote: <<<[Cat Stevens] didn't die, but he supported the murder of Salmon Rushdie, author of "The Satanic Verses". His exact quote was "The Koran makes it clear, anyone who defames the prophet must die". When I heard that I decided to boycott him forever. Peace Train my ass!>>> And this is why the 10,000 Maniacs cover of "Peace Train" disappeared from later pressings of _In My Tribe_. If he's sworn off his old identity as Cat Stevens, has he sworn off the songwriting royalties he receives from his former identity? ;-) - --Michael, who adds Mr. Stevens to that list of nauseating hippie-era artists (IMO, of course) NP: Beck, _Mutations_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:27:02 -0800 From: Don Sloan Subject: re: hippie s**t NJC Kakki wrote in part: > I had a sense that you might react to some of this music as naive and > indulgent and can see how it might appear that way in the context of today's > music and socio-politico culture. I think one has to have lived during the > times to understand or feel an affinity to some of this music. I know we are discouraged from posting "me too" messages to the list, but I feel compelled (sorry). I was going to add my 2 cents on this one but the ever-tactful and insightful Kakki covered all the bases much more eloquently than I ever could. I think much of music is on some level an expression of the culture of the time and the culture going on inside the head of the artist. In other words, oftentimes "you had to be there". Just like some of the stuff Michael likes seems silly to me, he feels the same about some of the 60s stuff I love. The main thing is, all of us here love music and, of course, Joni! But Michael, "....Van very over-rated though pleasant enough"? :-) Don NP: Madonna: The Immaculate Collection ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:45:04 -0500 From: klempner@email.unc.edu (Mark Klempner) Subject: hippie-s**t Has anyone mentioned Donovan? "Gift From A Flower to a Garden"? Some of my favorite hippie music. Also, the Incredible String Band. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:46:47 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Profile (njc) OK, I'll throw my hat in the ring... 1. Name: Azeem Ali Khan 2. Nicknames: None except Az, which I hate - Azeem's only 5 letters, ferchrissake! 3. Original Hometown: London, England 4. School: Christ's Hospital, Sussex, England 5. Bacon bits or croutons: Croutons 6. Favorite salad dressing: I quite like Newman's 7. What do you drink: Water, wine, fresh orange juice, good English beer, preferably with a silly name (Tanglefoot, Piston, Old Peculiar, etc etc) 8. What type of deodorant do you use: Trust - it's great, it lasts ages, and I hasten to add that you can wash as normal, and it still lasts through the soap and water. At least I think it does... 9. Favorite shampoo: Body Shop banana shampoo. Smells good enough to drink 10. Favorite Color(s): For clothing, black, navy and green. 11. One pillow or two: One (orthopaedic - at least that's how they justify charging 40 quid for one :-) 12. Pets: None 13. Favorite Movie(s): sex lies & videotape, Proof, Thelma and Louise, Midnight Run, Spinal Tap, Smoke, City of Hope, anything else by John Sayles... 14. Favorite Types of Music: Most things, except opera and heavy metal, and I'm selective about rap; I hate anything that sounds as if it was written by or for a committee. 15. Hobbies: Music (stating the bleedin' obvious :-), cinema, JMDL, trying to write songs on the guitar 16. Dream Car: See 17 (but for aesthetic beauty, E-type Jaguar 17. Type of car you drive: I don't drive - there are too many cars in the world, and they're a pernicious and malign influence. I could rant at length, only MHO, etc etc... 18. Word or phrase you overuse: "Splendid!"; "Groovy"; "I love this song!"; "Joni Mitchell/Laura Nyro/Jane Siberry/Richard Thompson is a genius" 19. Favorite food: Imaginative vegetarian food; falafels; kettle chips; Ben & Jerry's 20. Piercings or tattoos: none. 21. Do you get along with your parents: Father dead, didn't truly know him; very well with mother 22. Favorite town to chill in: London, Seattle, Portland (Oregon), Sydney, Hobart 23. Favorite ice cream: B&J's Chunky Monkey - or Haagen Dazs Raspberry Sorbet 24. Favorite soda: Rubicon exotic (especially guava) 25. What's your bedtime: Too late - anything from 11.00 - 1.30 26. Adidas, Nike, or Reebok: None 27. Favorite perfume/cologne: None 28. Favorite song at the moment: "Holes" - Mercury Rev 29. Favorite website: JM.com; Ectophiles guide (can't remember the URL) 30. Favorite subject in school: German 31. Least favorite subject: Physics 32. Favorite sport to watch: Rugby Union (on the basis that it's the one that gets me shouting at the telly the most) 33. Craziest or silliest person you know: Can't really answer that, except that it's definitely not me! (I have a slight reaction against so many people jumping on the "I'm mad, me" band wagon) 34 Don't know - there was no 34 in the one I copied! 35. Favorite holiday(s): Australia, 2 years ago (English answer); New year (transatlantic answer) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:51:05 -0800 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V4 #17 Thank you Alan for speaking out for us men! You don't have to be gay or female to have feelings, or to love Joni Mitchell's music! Thousands and thousands of men have been fans of Joni Mitchell for years. Perhaps the reason Joni doesn't have such a large following of gays like other divas is that she's brutally honest about her relationships with men. It's just a hunch but I would imagine that her lyrics would not be appealing to most gay women, such as those of, say, Melissa Etheridge, who sings to a non-gender-specific lover. As a musician, when I was still singing in the bar and coffeehouse scene, I could not cover my beloved Joni songs because some don't work for a man. I could cover Carly Simon, even Blondie and Benatar, but some of Joni's poetry is specifically written by woman about man. I'm insulted to hear people imply that men don't have feelings. That's ridiculous. Even the classic John Wayne right-wing men have feelings about things (even if the feelings are "dog-eat-dog"). In "Heart and Mind," Joni states her feelings and questions the man's feelings, but she doesn't deny that we have them! Why would you expect men to feel the same way a woman or gay person does? I know a guy who buys Joni albums only because she has a "sexy" voice -- good for him, let him appreciate what he will! I am relieved that Joni seems to appeal more to individuals who appreciate art instead of being an icon for some political group or fad following. Let the drugsters flock after Phish and Dylan, the youngsters mosh after Matthews, the gays follow whomever they follow. Joni is simply one of our generation's most brilliant musicians. She appeals to a wide spectrum of different people. That's enough for me. PS, CAT STEVENS: The Cat Stevens web site has links to audio samples of his new releases. Some nice stuff, different but beautiful. PPS, Discussions about other musicians, Grateful Dead, Morrison, blues, etc.: Every one has different tastes some times. That's what makes us human. Every one shares the same taste some times. That's what makes us friends. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:46:50 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" In a message dated 1/11/99 7:47:35PM, whuehn@stud.uni-goettingen.de writes: << So, in a metaphorical sense, I guess you could say the "Morning- Has-Broken" Cat Stevens did indeed die. He's still writing and producing music though, but I haven't got a clue as to which kind and of which quality. Winfried, not intending to make any kind of judgment on the above matter >> I am willing to make a judgment, on the basis that he publicly supported the Fatwah against Salman Rushdie. I loathe any invoking of religion to justify killing someone who has not harmed anyone, but has simply written a book and is being condemned to death by people who have never read it. It is widely accepted that the Ayatollah Khomeini (who initiated the "death sentence") was doing so for other than religious reasons. In fact, 10,000 Maniacs were so outraged by this that they tried to have "Peace Train" omitted from any future editions of "In My Tribe" - although for reasons I can't remember, they couldn't do it). One of Cat's early songs was "I'm gonna get me a gun". Funny, that. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:46:35 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Bacharach, Costello, Joni, Grace Of My Heart In a message dated 1/9/99 11:40:14PM, FredNow@aol.com writes: << And Kristen Vigard, who sang as the voice of the Illeana character (Edna/Denise) is a real find ... her singing absolutely killed me. >> I agree 100% Fred, I thought she was stunning. It seems she's only made one album, which was a bit of an 80s studio monstrosity (Monica was kind enough to send me a tape). I can't wait for her to do another record. Grace of my Heart was a terrific film I thought, and 100 times better at evoking the times, the music and the people than "Velvet Goldmine". Azeem, Freezing in London ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:54:32 +0000 From: Rob Jordan Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) >> I also think Van Morrison is very over-rated, though pleasant enough. Hi Michael: You think Van is "pleasant", I think he's the greatest. That's our prerogative to disagree. It does irk me though that you describe him as "over-rated" (and you're not the first!). That's such an unhelpful criticism. What does it mean, exactly? Those of us who put him at the top of our lists again and again, are we deluding ourselves? Does the emperor wear no clothes, and for thirty years we have not realised? Put another way, how would you feel if I said Joni Mitchell is over-rated? Or "the artist"? Or Madonna? No hard feelings :-) Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:46:37 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Beck & Bonnie In a message dated 1/11/99 1:51:31AM, gerlad@mb.sympatico.ca writes: << Good luck with the operation, Wally. You know there will be a collective of positive vibes headed your way. >> My very best wishes too Wally. Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:06:23 -0600 From: Diana Duncan Subject: RE: Cat Stevens (NJC) At 05:28 PM 1/11/1999 -0500, Michael Yarbrough wrote: >If he's sworn off his old identity as Cat Stevens, has he sworn >off the songwriting royalties he receives from his former >identity? ;-) LOL! Now there's a question. He probably gives it all to his religion. Diana, NP: Tea for the Tillerman on scratched vinal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:18:12 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: hippie-s**t (NJC) Kakki wrote: <<>> Of course. And this is really the point I was trying to make in my original reference to the subject, in response to my good friend who made a blanket statement about how crappy rap music is. My affinity for hip-hop is to a large degree aesthetic, but it is also related to my politics and my age. And it's a far more relevant music to my life than that which is most relevant to many of you. What I ask for is that acknowledgement. There's a world of difference between "I think Van Morrison is a genius" or "Public Enemy provided a political voice for me when I needed it" and "No musical geniuses have started working after x year" or "Of course everyone owns these, the greatest albums of all time." There's no denying the skew of this list,and it's certainly not a phenomenon monopolized by the JMDL. I can't tell you how frustrated I've been by a cavalcade of R.E.M. fans listing their "diverse" tastes ranging from Pearl Jam to Stone Temple Pilots, perhaps including the Beastie Boys but never a black hip-hop band (or a black anything). So my little pretentious mission is to try to open a few ears (including my own). I hope I don't offend too much when I do. Of course the irony of it all is that those who respond to me are the most likely to be open-minded anyway, while the die- hard fans of one or another band I've dissed have long since begun deleting this uppity little twit. - --Michael NP: Marilyn Manson, _Mechanical Animals_ (even I'm skeptical of this one...) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:11:50 +0100 From: "Peter Holmstedt" Subject: Joni Tribute Album What about Graham Nash asking his partners Crosby and Stills doing " A Case Of You " ? Take care, Peter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:31:42 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: hippie-s**t (VLJC) I wrote: >> I also think Van Morrison is very over-rated, though pleasant enough. Rob wrote: <<>> And again, that's my point. Something that's supposedly taken for granted by many on this list doesn't seem so obvious to me. <<>> And the "genius" with which he is described is an unhelpful praise. WHY is he a genius? It's not self-evident to everybody. So there's my challenge: prove it. WHY do I think he's overrated? Because I find his melodies pretty but not earth-shattering, lyrics fine but not revelatory, and his singing uncommunicative. How's that for helpful criticism? :-) <<>> Very different than I would if you said "I THINK Joni Mitchell is over-rated," or, "I THINK the Artist is over-rated." Which is what I did: <<>> Emphasis added. I'm willing to accept the reality that my musical opinions are not universal. Just once, though, it would be nice to force one of y'all to defend a '60s icon's music instead of me (and others) having to defend '90s music again. Am I any clearer? Maybe this is just some demented revenge fantasy on my part... ;-) I have to say that many Dylan fans have very patiently defended their beloved to me, and for that I am grateful. Maybe it's the Morrison Van's turn at the plate. :-) - --Michael, happy to explain the virtues of Public Enemy or Lauryn Hill or Nirvana or Madonna or R.E.M. or Pet Shop Boys or.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:56:43 -0600 From: "Alan Parsons" Subject: CD store story Remember when it would be "Record store story?" I don't :) I went to my favorite used CD exchange near campus, which is the best place to replace scratched/skipping CDs, and I was surprised to see a handful of Joni CDs. I've checked here before, and they are few and far between, so I picked up Turbulent Indigo and For The Roses, both of which, I'm ashamed to admit, I never owned. (In my defense, a close friend did, and I borrowed them whenever I felt like it). Going to the register, the clerk and I got into a discussion on her work. He knew of her earlier work, and loved it, so was excited to see her and Dylan in concert. He then started trashing her performance as jazzy and sappy, and said that he was glad to see her go. Of course, he's a huge Dylan fan. I had to laugh, knowing of my recent postings on Dylan. I went to her defense, of course, and used the argument tht her style of expressing herself has changed over the years, but that it doesn't negate the brilliance of her earlier or later careers. Which is the exact opposite of what I said about Prince (Yes, I'm admitting I was wrong). The whole experience also reminded me that we're all entitled to our tastes. I left joking with him, after I agreed that Dylan does have a way of speaking to you, while he agreed that the pure genius of Joni's work until about 1980ish (where he started notlistening to her jazzier stuff) is not to be discounted. We then agreed that Eric Clapton was a master at blues guitar. Given everyone voiing their opinion on things, I just thought I'd share. Alan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:59:55 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" No he is not dead. He calls himself Yusaf or something and often appears on TV to speak up for Muslims. Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com wrote: > Paul proposed: > > < ago. Am I wrong? >> > > Paul, I know he switched to Islamic religion and disavowed his > former life as Cat Stevens, but I don't think he's assumed room > temperature as yet... > > Bob > > NP: Timbuk 3, "Legalize Our Love" - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:01:44 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas Well I don't see how the penis bit got in there but whilst i agree that not all str8 men are ignorant of feelings, there own and others, it does come across that way. IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/11/99 2:11:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, > kenevans@umich.edu writes: > > << To state it more simplistic, she wrote so many songs > about men that are full of "processing," the sort of emotional analysis > that is very much the province of women and gay men, and with the > exception of the archtypes defined by the characters on the show > "Friends," not particularly by many straight men. >> > > Oh, really? > Why is it that gay men think they are the only ones with penises and feelings? > I could go on, but I don't think the statements I quote are worth dignifying > any further. > Paul I - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:06:55 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: NJC: In defense of Cat Stevens At 03:18 PM 1/11/99 , Randy wrote: >He didn't die, but he supported the murder of Salmon Rushdie, author of "The >Satanic Verses". His exact quote was "The Koran makes it clear, anyone who >defames the prophet must die". When I heard that I decided to boycott him >forever. Peace Train my ass! Actually, Cat Stevens did not actually call for Rushdie's death. From the Cat Stevens website, I found this snip from Cat/Yusuf's official press release re: the incident: "On 21st February, I was speaking to a group of students at the Kingston Polytechnic, and in response to a question, I simply stated the Islamic ruling on the Rushdie affair. Suddenly, my picture was splashed on the front page of newspapers all over the world next to the headline: 'Kill Rushdie says Cat Stevens'. It is very sad to see such irresponsibility from the 'free press' and I am totally abhorred." The full statement is here: http://catstevens.com/articles/pressrelease.html Les, who still thinks Islam's gain is music's loss. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:10:27 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) At 02:06 PM 1/11/99 , Kakki eloquently wrote: >I had a sense that you might react to some of this music as naive and >indulgent and can see how it might appear that way in the context of today's >music and socio-politico culture. I think one has to have lived during the >So now some of us look back on that music fondly and nostalgically, but for >very valid reasons. It brought us some small dose of beauty in an ugly >world, it gave us hope, and much of it inspired us and helped us to feel >that we did have a voice. I must say that this is one of the most eloquent and moving descriptions of the era that I have ever heard! I nominate Kakki for this month's JMDL Pulitzer. Les ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:32:35 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) That is the problem with taste. To me liking someone or not liking them, music wise, has nothing to do woith talent or quality or even race. I cannot stand rap(or is it hip hop now?) and it has nothing to do with what is said but ebvrything to do woith the sound of it. The sound really bothers me, like heavy metal does. It hurts almost. I cannot stand Dylan either and would switch off very quickly as I would the rap/metal. It all has to do with how the sounds made resonate within me. If the sound is dreadful to my ear, then what they are saying doesn't get communicated. I equally cannot abide Opera singers. as i have said before, my cats on heat sound better to me. None of which says anything about the quality or otherwise of performers, nor of the 'quality' of my taste. ikt just says I do not like particular sounds. This is what makes humans so diverse-what moves someone leaves another cold. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:32:52 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni vs Gay Divas (some Joni content) Alan-I agreed with most of that. I think it also needs to be remembered that wehilst some women bemoan the lack of emotional honesty/knowledge in men, they do actually have the powerer to change that as they get to do most of the rearing. I know a lesbian woman who tells her son off when he displays his feelings'don't be a sissy' she says!!!! I find that gobsmacking. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:32:49 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V4 #17 I didn't think that it was written that str8 men do not have feelings. They are human so pof course they have. I thought the person was saying that str8 men have difficulty with feeling feelings and expressing them honestly-like reacting with anger and violence when a cry or feeling sad or humilated or whatever may have been more appropriate. Just for the record, although my partner of 17 1/2 yrs, John, is gay, we have many of the same problems in pour relationship as my str8 girlfriends do with their husbands. Apart from being in love with me, John is very much a str8 man in his attitudes to emotions and sex(except he does not sleep around) and money and whose job is whose etc. It has taken quite a bit of working out! He was brought up in the North where men are men and women do as they are told, at least in his generation. He has been considered by his family, nuclear and extended, to be the head of the family since the death of his Dad 25 yrs ago. His aunts, sisters, mother, neices, nephews etc all turn to him for advice, decisions etc. Weird but that is the way it is. Mind you it hads it's up side-I get to saty at home and live off his money as he is the breadwinner! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:42:15 -0000 From: philipf@tinet.ie Subject: Re: Before everyone REALLY hates me... - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Yarbrough >(And if y'all would do the same with hip-hop I'd be a lot happier. :-) ) > >--Michael I like hip hop and Judy Collins. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:41:39 -0500 (EST) From: David Wright Subject: Re: Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam (NJC) Les wrote: > I also heard that he was going to come out with a new album > of Islamic tunes - 2 or 3 of which he penned himself. Did anyone else hear > about this? Yes, I heard that. Apparently they will constitute his first new *musical* release since his conversion? I think I read that they will include musical backing, but only by percussion instruments, since it is stringed instruments specifically that he feels are forbidden by the Koran (or Qur'an). - --David NP: Red House Painters, _Songs for a Blue Guitar_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:37:14 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) In a message dated 1/11/99 4:38:50 PM, mwyarbro@zzapp.org wrote: >Kakki asked: > ><<>> > >Well, I'll start with the stuff I do like to make it a little less offensive. >:-) Obviously I'm a big fan of Joni, and I've also gotten into the Who >over the past few months. I like what I've heard of Jefferson Airplane, >dig Simon and Garfunkel (in small doses) and am slowly but >steadily learning to appreciate Dylan. Of course I love the Beatles >as well. > >Most of the stuff I don't like irritates me either because it is syrupy >and naive or indulgent and arrogant. The first category would include >Judy Collins, Joan Baez, et al; CSN; Jackson Browne; James Taylor. >The exemplar of the second category is the Grateful Dead; it also >includes Eric Clapton, Allman Bros. and [gulp] the Rolling Stones. >Flat-out boring (IMO) artists who fit in both categories include >Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles (both of whom I know came a little >after hippiedom, but their fan-base overlaps significantly.) I also think >Van Morrison is very over-rated, though pleasant enough. You get >my drift. > >Now before I'm forced to eat all those feathers I've ruffled, I will say >that almost all of these artists have a song or two I've enjoyed (like >Eric Clapton's "Promises," the Stones' "Paint It, Black"). And >most of them I've given significant chances--I own the entire four- >disc Clapton _Crossroads_, the Allman Bros. _Live at Fillmore_ >stuff, and have even traded with members of this list for live shows >by some of the others. And the vast majority of it sounds >indistinguishable from the rest of its contemporaries (to me). I'm >a much bigger fan of punk's no-frills and especially post-punk's >experimental approaches, with lots of exciting, original sounds, >rhythms, melodies, chord changes, etc.--but without the pomposity >(sometimes). These are the attributes of Joni's music I appreciate >along with her gift for strong and memorable melody (which is why >I love the Beatles, of course, and S&G) and not-too-sentimental >lyrics. > >I also resent the overwhelming orthodoxy (more dominant outside >this list than on it, but still present here) that the '60s were the >golden age of non-classical, non-jazz music. Excepting Joni and >the Beatles, I think the best "rock" (narrowly-defined) music before >1975 was made before 1960 (Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, etc.) >And I think the vast breadth, vision and quantity of good music >since the mid-70s dwarfs that which preceded it. > >Guess who's the most unpopular JMDLer now? :-) > >--Michael > >NP: Quasi, _Featuring "Birds"_ (with strong melodies and >experimental textures ;-) ) > Don't worry Michael, i've got your back. i am in complete agreement with you (maybe not with about the Stones, but...). alot of "hippie-s**t" is obnoxiously similar and self-indulgent. pop music never changes, i suppose...one person gets a hit, everyone tries to follow the formula. thus we get young female "singer/songwriters" following the Jewel/Alanis formula (neither of whom can write a good song IMHO...i mean come on! have you heard "Hands"? how about "Thank U"?). and we also get johnny-cum-latelies Nirvana wannabes Bush to the grunge scene. so put this pattern back 30 years and what do you get? the same damn thing. sure there's some genuinely good music (like the Beatles and my pers. 60s faves The Doors...i also quiet like alot of the girl group stuff like the Chiffons), but alot of it seems banal and no matter how "beautiful" or "groundbreaking" it was, i just can't see it. maybe i'm too jaded by the music i listen to. i mean, i've plugged my favorite artists a million times (and i'll do it again!), but in the world of Kim Deal(!!!!!!), Janet Weiss (best drummer EVER), Elliott Smith, Sarah McLachlan, Kurt Cobain and Nirvana, Radiohead, ect...well, all that folkie guitar stuff seems so boring and plain and so SIMILAR... i understand completely that alot of that folkie guitar stuff influenced alot of the stuff i listen to...but that doesn't neccesarily mean i have to like it. i know Sarah loves early Joni, Joan Baez, ect...as i said, it just seems so similar to me. As Michael Y. said...it just seems that if you look beyond the banal pop radio, you can find so much texture and experimentation. i too sort of resent the "orthodoxy" 60s rock has over music. pop/rock didn't die in 1979. although i am not too fond of 80s music, i can generally say i like punk (it's a human thing) and i do like nice-middle-of-the-road-pop like Blink 182. but i do love the offbeat stuff that's really pioneering (like Quasi, who def. rawk). alot of what i am saying will probably be attributed to age. i'm too young to appreciate or i didn't live through the 60s so i can't judge properly. and i can't. but remember, this is art we're talking about. and there is no right and wrong in art. there are only opinions. maybe when i am 40 years old, i will pine for the golden age of 90s rock. it's true the creativity in music has been slow lately, but it's gotten much much better with the emergence of creative, experimental bands and songwriters. you've just got to find what you like. i'd like to tell a story about a friend of mine's dad...we had a big conversation about music. it was so refreshing to talk about the pixies and sonic youth with someone over 30. he said to me that sure he likes the old stuff...he likes the new stuff too. it's important to keep an open mind. at least that's what i've learned. as i said, i know what i like. and dammit, that's what i'm going to listen to. - -mariana NP: Belly, -King- (started by the amazing Tanya Donelly of Throwing Muses and Breeders) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:48:42 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: Cat Stevens (NJC) In a message dated 1/11/99 10:31:50 PM, mwyarbro@zzapp.org wrote: >If he's sworn off his old identity as Cat Stevens, has he sworn >off the songwriting royalties he receives from his former >identity? ;-) > >--Michael, who adds Mr. Stevens to that list of nauseating >hippie-era artists (IMO, of course) > >NP: Beck, _Mutations_ My mum makes me sit through her best of Cat Stevens album in the car. funny how she makes me sit through her music but takes mine. she's basically stealing all my Sarah Mc albums and boots. but that's okay. sarah's yummy enough to share. Cat Stevens isn't *that* nauseating. but those pictures of him wearing straings of flowers on the inside cover are. I find Beck's new album much more appetizing. - -mariana NP: Sleater Kinney, -Call The Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:56:05 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: hippie-s**t (VLJC) In a message dated 1/12/99 12:36:08 AM, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk wrote: >That is the problem with taste. To me liking someone or not liking them, >music wise, has nothing to do woith talent or quality or even race. I >cannot stand rap(or is it hip hop now?) and it has nothing to do with what >is said but ebvrything to do woith the sound of it. The sound really >bothers me, like heavy metal does. It hurts almost. >I cannot stand Dylan either and would switch off very quickly as I would >the rap/metal. >It all has to do with how the sounds made resonate within me. If the sound >is dreadful to my ear, then what they are saying doesn't get communicated. > >I equally cannot abide Opera singers. as i have said before, my cats on >heat sound better to me. > >None of which says anything about the quality or otherwise of performers, >nor of the 'quality' of my taste. ikt just says I do not like particular >sounds. > >This is what makes humans so diverse-what moves someone leaves another >cold. You, my dear, have got the right idea. and rap and hip-hop are different, though i'll leave it up to the hip hop expert to tell us why. - -mariana NP: Amps, -Pacer- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:54:01 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (VLJC) In a message dated 1/11/99 11:31:20 PM, mwyarbro@zzapp.org wrote: >I'm willing to accept the reality that my musical opinions are not >universal. Just once, though, it would be nice to force one of y'all >to defend a '60s icon's music instead of me (and others) having to >defend '90s music again. Am I any clearer? Maybe this is just >some demented revenge fantasy on my part... ;-) > >I have to say that many Dylan fans have very patiently defended >their beloved to me, and for that I am grateful. Maybe it's the >Morrison Van's turn at the plate. :-) > >--Michael, happy to explain the virtues of Public Enemy or Lauryn >Hill or Nirvana or Madonna or R.E.M. or Pet Shop Boys or.... Quasi or the Pixies or Breeders or Sleater-Kinney or FUGAZI or the Breeders or the Amps or the Eels or... - -mariana NP: The Amps, _Pacer_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:43:49 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) In a message dated 1/11/99 5:48:41 PM, mwyarbro@zzapp.org wrote: >ew wave *directly* grew out of punk, and disco actually developed >after punk, so the answer is no. Punk was a reaction primarily to >hippie music and its movement, not least of all because the hippie >"revolution" belonged primarily to middle-class bourgeouis college >students, leaving the working class out. It was also a reaction >against the lyrical naivete and artistic pretensions of hippie music, >and even more directly, the "symphonic" dross that followed it >(bad prog, etc.) And it has lasted in the strains of the mainstream rock bands of today such as the Offspring and Nirvana. Cobain mocks that god-awful (in my opnion) hippie anthem "Get Together" in the beginning of "Territorial Pissings". it's worth a listen. in fact, all of "Nevermind" seems to be a backlash against the mainstream rock. how ironic that Nirvana has become as mainstream as they come... - -mariana NP: The Pixies, -Bossanova- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:03:02 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas In a message dated 1/11/99 7:01:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk writes: << Well I don't see how the penis bit got in there but whilst i agree that not all str8 men are ignorant of feelings, there own and others, it does come across that way. >> Maybe, just maybe, it is YOU (I don't mean to pick on you, Colin, but I'm using YOU symbolically) who is insensitive to them. Maybe, just maybe, you are so wrapped up in your own that you are wither unaware of mine or unconcerned about them. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:11:58 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni vs Gay Divas (some Joni content) In a message dated 1/11/99 4:25:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, CraziAP@email.msn.com writes: << No matter how liberated we as a nation seem to be, the sad fact is that straight men refuse to show that kind of emotion simply beccause they don't want thier "manhood challenged," in other words don't want to be confused with being gay. >> As I was terse, Alan, you were eloquent. To add to your comment that I have clipped here, I like to say, "Real men can eat quiche without being concerned about their masculinity." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:28:05 +0800 (PST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: joni covers > A long time ago in Cafe Lena in Saratoga Springs, NY I heard Dave Van Ronk > sing "Both Sides Now." He squeezed so much pain out of the song. > His being drunk made it even sadder. What an excruciating experience. Hi Mark, When my professor heard "Both Sides Now" as rendered by jazz singer Dianne Reeves, he remarked that he liked it better than any other covers because Reeves seems to savor the lines. I told him that the lines were written by Joni Mitchell and he was surprised because he thought the song was written by someone else -- it is that famous but he never associated it with Joni. I also think that a lot of people associated "Chelsea Morning" with Judy Collins. That's fine with me because it makes the song more enduring. Joseph Strange how potent cheap music is -- Noel Coward ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:25:36 -0800 From: Travis Moser Subject: Re: hippie s**t NJC Don Sloan wrote: But > Michael, "....Van very over-rated though pleasant enough"? :-) > When I saw Van play with Bob & Joni last May I knew next to nothing about his music and I graduated high school in 1972. My friend Melanie had loaned me a best of tape a few weeks before the concert. My reaction? Well, he was pleasant enough...but he didn't blow me away. I never have liked the Stones (maybe a few of their songs), I still don't get what all the hoopla is about Steely Dan, Ricki Lee Jones, Elvis Costello and some others that don't come to mind at the moment that are mentioned frequently on this list. I guess my point is that it's wrong to assume that any of us are going to be crazy about any other artist or group of artists just because we love Joni. Joni crosses a lot of borderlines in her appeal. And quite frankly I sometimes get annoyed at the implied assumption that everybody agrees that these particular artists are essential listening. I never have liked being told what I should or should not read, listen to, think or do. But that's my problem & mostly I don't sweat it. I just let it go. But Michael Y has expressed some definite opinions here & I say, you go, Michael! You're certainly entitled. And also I'd like to say Kakki, you were, as usual, quite eloquent and reasonable. Your post was great. But on the other side of the coin, if you have to be from a particular generation and remember the events of another era to enjoy certain music, doesn't that make the music topical and not timeless? That's one of the things that struck me about the post-Woodstock Dick Cavett show. Much as I love the Airplane, I don't think 'We are all outlaws in the eyes of America' is nearly as relevant or meaningful today as Joni's rendition of 'Willie' or 'Chelsea Morning'. Joni was singing about timeless emotions. The Airplane was expressing the anger and rebellion of their particular generation. Is one more significant than the other? I wonder... Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:39:37 +0800 (PST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: My Happy Songs My own private happy songs :) 1) Just You Just Me - Ella Fitzgerald This song was a contest between Ella and the Marty Paich Dektette as to who can outclass who. Ella won hands down by scatting ultra fast which seems to wheedle the hard-swinging band. Makes me happy. Everytime. 2) You Happy Puppet - 10,000 Maniacs Arguably the most high-minded and under-rated album of the Maniacs that flopped in 1989. The song may be too preachy but the musical arrangements particularly the opening is so enjoyable. That makes me smile. 3) Someone's Been Sending Me Flowers - Blossom Dearie Okay, okay, its not fair because this song is so uproariously funny that whoever sings it is wont to bring out the humor in the song. Blossom Dearie's quavery and waif-like voice is so effective. Cracks me everytime. 4) I'm Happy - Manfredo Fest Although a scat-vocalese, this piano-based melody is so tongue-in-cheek and very jocular one can't help but imagine that pianist Fest is smiling from ear to ear while doing this piece. 5) You on My Mind - Swing Out Sister Very danceable although there is a hint of unrequited love in the message. The orchestra managed to have a romping good time. Joseph Strange how potent cheap music is -- Noel Coward ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:21:57 +0800 (PST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: Subject:Cover tunes > The song that sticks in my mind as ideal for Rickie Lee Jones to cover, is > 'Twisted', but that wasn'r written by Joni, so I suppose it does not count. > It just seems to have been associated with her for as long as I have ever > heard it. > Paul, That's right. It seems that the Wardell Gray tune which was first vocalized by Annie Ross was always associated with Joni. In fact, I read a magazine somewhere that when soul singery Crystal Waters (sp?) sang that song in her album, it was mentioned that "(Crystal) remade Joni's song." Joseph ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:21:59 -0500 From: "Steve Garrison" Subject: Re: joni covers Veteran jazz guitarist Pat Martino in 1997 put out an album of duets (some slightly augmented) called "All Sides Now" in which he performed with such diverse artists as Charlie Hunter, Joe Satriani, Les Paul, Tuck Andress, the late Michael Hedges, Mike Stern and Kevin Eubanks. But the clear highlight of the effort was the not-quite-the-title cut, "Both Sides Now," with smoky-voiced Cassandra Wilson. If over the years you've ever dismissed the song as a bit of formulaic Joni Juvenilia, this is a version to freshen your ears. Steve - ---------- >When my professor heard "Both Sides Now" as rendered by jazz singer Dianne >Reeves, he remarked that he liked it better than any other covers because >Reeves seems to savor the lines. I told him that the lines were written by >Joni Mitchell and he was surprised because he thought the song was written >by someone else -- it is that famous but he never associated it with Joni. \ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:30:31 -0500 From: "Steve Garrison" Subject: Re: My Happy Songs "We Came To Play" by the Persuasions. Start to finish soul-drenched, life-affirming street corner symphony including some of the "feel-goodest" sad-songs you'll ever hear. - ---------- >My list of the day is tunes to make you feel better. When >I need a lift I reach for the old reliables. All of these are >guaranteed to heal. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:30:41 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas w evans wrote: > > Clark, thanks for bringing that up.... I have never understood why joni > doesn't seem to have the so-called "gay diva" following that those other > women have... Well leaving aside the whole thorny issue of who has feelings & who doesn't, as a gay man I have to say that I never liked the idea of Joni as a gay diva. I think her appeal is much broader than that. I also think that Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, Bette Midler and some others that have been given this particular label have a much broader appeal. I went through a period of the coming out process when I was disdainful of anything that would seem stereotyped. I missed out on a lot of great music & entertainment as a result. I've wised up since then. Garland in particular was one of the truly great singers of our time IMHO and I hate it when people dismiss her as a campy gay icon. I have always felt as if I could have written so many of her > songs from my own experience if I had the talent (Esp. Last Time I Saw > Richard, I Had A King, Down To You, Help Me.) To me it seems that Joni's > experience as a VERY liberated woman in the throes of the long-ago 70s > heterosexual revolution, with all of its confusion about just What Is > Love? and wondering if all this freedom, newly burst forth, is really > making her happy, this experience detailed in her songs seems to me very > similar to the gay male urban experience. And again, leaving aside the issue of men, women & their respective feelings (or alleged lack thereof), I do agree with this part of this post based primarily on my own experience. I think it was a bit more universal than just the urban gay male, however. I've said before that Joni's honest and sometimes painful analysis of the whole confusion that was wrought by the sexual freedom of the 70's was a big part of her appeal for me. I think so many of us wanted that romantic ideal of love that Joni went skating after in Song for Sharon but were so conflicted by our desire to satisfy our sexual curiousity that we could never quite make ourselves really believe in it. Joni's brilliant analysis of this conflict coupled with her emotional honesty made a potent combination. The poetic/musical genius was just as confused as the rest of us. This made her very human & ultimately irresistable to anyone who had the same compulsion for analysis that Joni was displaying in her 70's work. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:42:19 -0800 From: Mark-n-Travis Subject: Re: Subject:Cover tunes Joseph Palis wrote: > > It just seems to have been associated with her for as long as I have ever > > heard it. > > > > Paul, > > That's right. It seems that the Wardell Gray tune which was first > vocalized by Annie Ross was always associated with Joni. I associate it equally as much with Bette Midler. Two different interpretations and both equally valid imo. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:46:31 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Joni memories! Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:46:29 -0500 From: The Humphreys I'm coming out of lurk mode to respond to an incredible bunch of people! I su.bscribe to a couple of net-digests and find this one by far my favorite. I appreciate the humor and intellect it affords--something not found often enough these days. Anyway...standing up from my bended knee...I want to thank Carrie for her thoughts. I had an unnervingly similiar experience reconnecting with my Joni-history including FTR's. It was a treat reading your encounter. I really want to respond, however, to the person who mentioned the James Taylor/ Joni recording. Thank you so much for reminding me of this gem (it's playing at this moment!). However, I have a very poor quality, due to age and overuse, cassett(spell police), that I am desperate to update. Does anyone have any idea where I could obtain another copy? I would love to have it on CD, but if that's not possible, could someone make me a tape (I won't turn you into the copyright bogies). I used to work at a home for abused children right out of college, a few too many years ago. Anyway, the relevence of this statement being that I used to sing "Close Your Eyes" to a beautiful little shattered 4 year old with my dear friend Peter, whom I worked with. Needless to say, this tape brought back some very special memories for me. On another note, someone mentioned Tony Rice's version of "Urge For Going". Definitely worth a listen to. He's a wonderful artist who has done some terrific covers of Gordon Lightfoot; a strange but worthwhile pairing. I am very much the bluegrass junkie, or newgrass I should say. If any of you are out there, HI YA! BTW...what is the NP at the bottom of so many posts? Remember, be gentle, I'm new. Anyway, till next time....Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:44:35 EST From: Ginamu@aol.com Subject: Re: My Happy Songs Afternoons & Coffeespoons - Crash Test Dummies And It Stoned Me - Van Morrison (This song alone could have turned me into a Van fan forever) Oh, Yoko - John Lennon (totally and completely jubilant...aaaah, the power of love) Our House - Crosby, Stills and Nash (this song is a comfort) Love Shack - B52s ( this song makes me want to dance and dancing always makes me happy!) Nigh Ride Home - Joni Mitchell (peaceful, in love, all's right with the world) Cotton Avenue - Joni Thanks for the nice welcome letters and supportive comments many of you have made about my recent "scarlett" posting (it actually seems funny at this point). I'm very much enjoying the list and learning a lot. Gina ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V4 #18 ************************* There is now a JMDL tape trading list. 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