From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V4 #17
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Monday, January 11 1999 Volume 04 : Number 017
The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes
by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery
username: jimdle password: siquomb
-------
The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Re: Urge For Going ["Eric Taylor" ]
Re: Personal Mail generated from this list ["Eric Taylor" ]
Subject:Cover tunes ["Goodwin" ]
joni covers [Mark Klempner ]
My Happy Songs [philipf@tinet.ie]
Tom Waits (was Several Threads (and Golden Needles?) NJC [Bob.Muller@fluo]
Re: My Happy Songs [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re: Personal Mail generated from this list (teeny bit of Joni con tent) []
Re: Backstreet cover ["John M. Lind" ]
de-lurking [Leahpr@aol.com]
RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Michael Yarbrough ]
Re: de-lurking ["Don Rowe" ]
Re: JM Tribute Disc/Backstreet Boys ["John M. Lind" ]
RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) ["Don Rowe" ]
Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Jerry Notaro ]
Re: Re: Male singers for tribute album ["John M. Lind" ]
RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Michael Yarbrough ]
RE: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Michael Yarbrough ]
Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) [Jerry Notaro ]
Re[2]: Backstreet cover (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re: Personal Mail generated (NJC) [catman ]
Re: de-lurking ["M & C Urbanski" ]
Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re: JM Tribute Disc/Backstreet Boys [Randy Remote ]
Re: Personal Mail generated (NJC) ["Winfried Hühn" ]
Re: Male Singers [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
Re[2]: Male Singers & "Scarlett" [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com]
Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett" ["Winfried Hühn" ]
Leonard Cohen, (NJC - unless you want it to be so...) [Mary Grace Valenti]
Re: hippie-s**t (SJC) ["Kakki" ]
RE: Joni vs Gay Divas (some Joni content) ["Alan Parsons"
Subject: Re: Urge For Going
Jim wrote:
The only two reasons I bought Hits was to hear Urge For Going and to
support Joni. And I think it's the best song on the CD.
All the songs on Hits are wonderful but I find it insulting to Joni and
listeners to confine her unparalleled accomplishments to the early
seventies. None of her truly remarkable works are included on Hits, although
it is good to see Chinese Cafe and Come In From The Cold somehow made it
onto the CD.
However I can't see Hits killing her catalog. Suddenly I'm hearing her
music everywhere. And this is good!
E.T.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:02:12 -0500
From: "Eric Taylor"
Subject: Re: Personal Mail generated from this list
Gina wrote:
I bet I know who corrected you, Gina, and all I can say is they need to
get a life!
There are so many wonderful people on the JMDL I'm certain you'll find.
Please don't let the cranky nitpickers get to you. I am so glad you posted
this! We all need to be reminded of netiquette every now and then.
E.T.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:28:14 +0100
From: M.Russell@iaea.org
Subject: Re: Personal Mail generated from this list (teeny bit of Joni con tent)
On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:48:50 EST, Ginamu@aol.com wrote:
> No need to mention names but I recently received a letter
> addressed to me only but not the Joni Discussion list
> correcting my spelling of "Scarlett" in a posting I made
> recently regarding the song Shades Of Scarlett Conquering.
All persons who correkt the spelling and grammer of other JMDLers should
either be sentanced to working in an international organizashun, where the
native language of most employees is other than english, or banished to a
country where Englisch is not understood. Maybe after a cuple of yeers they
would learn that the ideas expressed are the important thangs and that
berating others for misteaks in grammer, spelling and punktuation is not
only rude, but also ignorant.
> English is my third language,
Bravo! I wonder if the person who wrote to you speaks more than one
language.
> so I apologize if sometimes
> my spelling and grammar, etc.,
No need to apologize and please keep posting. I have enjoyed your
contributions!
Marian
Vienna
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 05:55:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Klempner
Subject: joni/baez/collins
>It's been great to read your posts! Other than my sister Jill on this
>list, I know few others with a real jones for Joni. Some of my friends
>confuse her with Janis Ian or think she was a protest singer back in the
>Sixties. >
Yeah, and doesn't it drive you crazy when you mention Joni and someone
compares her to Joan Baez or Judy Collins! It's like comparing Walt
Whitman to Carl Sandburg or something.
Note to Carrie: thanks for sharing!
And Gina wrote:
>I just want to ask: what is the purpose of this list? Is
>it to stimulate discussion and share ideas or is to correct and criticize
>the opinions and ideas of others?
The former, but the JCS (Joni Correction Squad) never sleeps. Not to
mention the JP (Joni Police). But I'm glad you're here! Keep posting, and
welcome to the group.
Mark K.
On the wall in Elisabeth Kubler Ross' office: "To avoid criticism: say
nothing, do nothing, be nothing."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:56:42 +1100
From: "Goodwin"
Subject: Subject:Cover tunes
The song that sticks in my mind as ideal for Rickie Lee Jones to cover, is
'Twisted', but that wasn'r written by Joni, so I suppose it does not count.
It just seems to have been associated with her for as long as I have ever
heard it.
Paul G
Sydneyside
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:15:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Mark Klempner
Subject: joni covers
A long time ago in Cafe Lena in Saratoga Springs, NY I heard Dave Van Ronk
sing "Both Sides Now." He squeezed so much pain out of the song.
His being drunk made it even sadder. What an excruciating experience.
BTW, I'd like to hear Edith Piaf cover "Two Grey Rooms." But that ain't
gonna happen.
Mark K.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:15:57 -0000
From: philipf@tinet.ie
Subject: My Happy Songs
My list of the day is tunes to make you feel better. When
I need a lift I reach for the old reliables. All of these are
guaranteed to heal. You don't have to keep them away
from children but they do carry an IMHO warning.
1. New Morning - Bob Dylan
The most "great to be alive" song ever.
2. My Secret Place - Joni Mitchell
Sometimes I think this is the best thing she's ever done.
Definitely her best vocal.
]3. Into the Mystic - Van Morrison
For such a cantankerous old boy he's got an awful lot of
happy songs.
4. A Hard Day's Night - The Beatles
Lennon the pop star with his sense of humour still intact.
5. Dancing In The Street - Martha and the Vandellas
1999 should be on the list but I'm sick of it already.
Philip
NP Pat Metheny - Offramp
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:45:37 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Tom Waits (was Several Threads (and Golden Needles?) NJC
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Several Threads (and Golden Needles?)
Author: Ginamu@aol.com at fdinet
Date: 1/11/99 12:02 AM
In a message dated 1/10/99 11:31:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, les@jmdl.com
writes:
> ) Tom Waits could do a killer "over the top" rendition of "Midway."
> Honest to God, I can just hear it. I'm not sure I'd Like it, but I'd sure
> listen to it.
>
> Steve
You may not like it at first, but, after all , Tom Waits is an acquired
taste...I think this idea is fabulous!
Gina
Gina & Steve,
I won't revisit my Tom/Joni dual covers concepts, but this is clearly a great
choice for a cover on two levels:
1. Tom's gravely voice on a slow, pretty tune is a treat;
2. Carnival-oriented themes abound in Waits' work, from "Step Right Up", to the
cover of "Small Change" to the use of the calliope on "Another Sucker on the
Vine", to the carnival video of "In The Neighborhood" to the cover of
"Swordfishtrombones". The shady midway carnival characters are some of his
favorite protaganists.
Bob M
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:57:11 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re: My Happy Songs
Philip suggests:
My list of the day is tunes to make you feel better. When
I need a lift I reach for the old reliables. All of these are
guaranteed to heal. You don't have to keep them away
from children but they do carry an IMHO warning.
Great idea, now that we've all had a good cry it's time to heal...:^)
Here's *some* of my uppers, songs that always lift me up:
1. Sure Feels Good (feelin' good again) - Elvin Bishop (he ain't good
lookin' but he sure can play)
2. For The Love of Money - The O'Jays (just something about that bass
groove)
3. Chelsea Morning - Joni (this is pure joy and sunshine for me)
4. Fantasy - Earth, Wind & Fire (Or Changing Times, That's the Way of
the World, Shining Star, Jupiter, etc...)
That's enough for me - I hand the happy baton to the next runner...
Bob M
NP: They Might Be Giants, "She Was A Hotel Detective"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:24:59 -0800
From: Travis Moser
Subject: Re: Personal Mail generated from this list (teeny bit of Joni con tent)
M.Russell@iaea.org wrote:
>
> All persons who correkt the spelling and grammer of other JMDLers should
> either be sentanced to working in an international organizashun, where the
> native language of most employees is other than english, or banished to a
> country where Englisch is not understood.
Excelunt sugjestshun, Marian.
Personally I think they should just get a life.
Mark in Seattle
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:51:36 -0500
From: "John M. Lind"
Subject: Re: Backstreet cover
In a message dated 1/8/99 11:34:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, LucasBC@webtv.net
writes:
>Am I alone in thinking that the Backstreet Boys would do an
>excellent job with "Woman of Heart and Mind"??
Well, appearantly I'm the only one who thought this was a joke. And a
pretty catty(no offense, Colin) one at that. MRRROOOEEERRRR! PHHTT! PHHTT!
John~
NP 'Down To London" Joe Jackson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:07:07 EST
From: Leahpr@aol.com
Subject: de-lurking
Hello Joni lovers.
I have been lurking for several months now, and I have really enjoyed
learning more and more about one of my favorite musicians. I am seventeen, a
student abroad (in London), and my respect for Joni's music has grown so much
from reading all of your posts. My first Joni cd was NRH, then Misses, then
Hits, then Blue, and now STAS. I play guitar, and love CSN, Paul Simon,
James Taylor, and America.
Anyway, I own TTT, and I can't really get into it. I really try to
"appreciate" it but I get bored when I put it on. Maybe I will grow into it.
I hope I don't put anyone off by admitting that. : ) I love STAS however.
Nice to meet you all.
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:27:49 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC)
Kakki asked:
<<>>
Well, I'll start with the stuff I do like to make it a little less offensive.
:-) Obviously I'm a big fan of Joni, and I've also gotten into the Who
over the past few months. I like what I've heard of Jefferson Airplane,
dig Simon and Garfunkel (in small doses) and am slowly but
steadily learning to appreciate Dylan. Of course I love the Beatles
as well.
Most of the stuff I don't like irritates me either because it is syrupy
and naive or indulgent and arrogant. The first category would include
Judy Collins, Joan Baez, et al; CSN; Jackson Browne; James Taylor.
The exemplar of the second category is the Grateful Dead; it also
includes Eric Clapton, Allman Bros. and [gulp] the Rolling Stones.
Flat-out boring (IMO) artists who fit in both categories include
Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles (both of whom I know came a little
after hippiedom, but their fan-base overlaps significantly.) I also think
Van Morrison is very over-rated, though pleasant enough. You get
my drift.
Now before I'm forced to eat all those feathers I've ruffled, I will say
that almost all of these artists have a song or two I've enjoyed (like
Eric Clapton's "Promises," the Stones' "Paint It, Black"). And
most of them I've given significant chances--I own the entire four-
disc Clapton _Crossroads_, the Allman Bros. _Live at Fillmore_
stuff, and have even traded with members of this list for live shows
by some of the others. And the vast majority of it sounds
indistinguishable from the rest of its contemporaries (to me). I'm
a much bigger fan of punk's no-frills and especially post-punk's
experimental approaches, with lots of exciting, original sounds,
rhythms, melodies, chord changes, etc.--but without the pomposity
(sometimes). These are the attributes of Joni's music I appreciate
along with her gift for strong and memorable melody (which is why
I love the Beatles, of course, and S&G) and not-too-sentimental
lyrics.
I also resent the overwhelming orthodoxy (more dominant outside
this list than on it, but still present here) that the '60s were the
golden age of non-classical, non-jazz music. Excepting Joni and
the Beatles, I think the best "rock" (narrowly-defined) music before
1975 was made before 1960 (Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, etc.)
And I think the vast breadth, vision and quantity of good music
since the mid-70s dwarfs that which preceded it.
Guess who's the most unpopular JMDLer now? :-)
- --Michael
NP: Quasi, _Featuring "Birds"_ (with strong melodies and
experimental textures ;-) )
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:30:32 PST
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: Re: de-lurking
Hello Leah and glad to see you coming out from the shadows. If you've
been following the list since the release of TTT, you'll find that it's
grown on quite a few of us over time. Many initial reactions were not
unlike yours, and I'll agree that on the first couple of listenings,
some of the songs on TTT "just sit there." It has to do with the dense
layering of the guitars and synths, in my opinion, but of course, I'm a
keyboard player, so I get into that.
My suggestion would be to listen to 'Tiger Bones' on headphones. Notice
how thick the guitar sounds, since Joni's able to put different strings
in your right and/or left ear using the VG8. You'll also be favorably
impressed with the technique, at least I was. Then go to the title
track, and I think you'll find no end of interesting things going on
around the initial guitar track.
Again, welcome to the fray, and before I sign off, I must insist that
you get a copy of 'Hejira' at some point soon!
Take care,
Don Rowe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:53:52 -0500
From: "John M. Lind"
Subject: Re: JM Tribute Disc/Backstreet Boys
OK now that it's been established that Luke was kidding, and since we're
all fully aware of how sarcastic this group can get, why don't we come up
with some of the "worst" or funniest artists to cover a Joni song? My first
is (predictably):
Michael Bolton - any of them.
Marilyn Manson - ditto
John~
NP "Rubycon" T. Dream
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:12:24 PST
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC)
Hmmm ... interesting --
>Most of the stuff I don't like irritates me either because it is syrupy
>and naive would include
>Judy Collins, Joan Baez, et al; CSN; Jackson Browne; James Taylor.
There are some out there who would rather say "melodic" and "honest",
but that's a half-empty/half-full distinction at best. But since you
think Judy Collins is naive, I suggest you read her biography, "Singing
Lessons" -- the woman's been through more hell than most people could
honestly survive. Could shed a new light on her music for you.
You continue ...
>or indulgent and arrogant.
>The exemplar of the second category is the Grateful Dead; it also
>includes Eric Clapton, Allman Bros. and [gulp] the Rolling Stones.
>Flat-out boring (IMO) artists who fit in both categories include
>Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles (both of whom I know came a little
>after hippiedom, but their fan-base overlaps significantly.) I also
think
>Van Morrison is very over-rated, though pleasant enough. You get
>my drift.
>
Okay, I'll join you and say I missed the religion of The Grateful Dead.
Couple of okay songs, but not deities in my personal pantheon (or is
that parthenon, I can never be sure on this list!). I otherwise note
that the only thing the groups and artists you mention share is
instrumental virtuosity. If that makes their music seem 'indulgent' and
'arrogant' to you , then so be it. But this is not 'musical technique
for technique sakes', which for me is indulgent and arrogant -- such as
Rush, Al DiMeola (sp?) or Joe Satriani (sp?) -- bet I'm ruffling a few
feathers of my own now! :-)
I would also say that if some of this material seems "boring" to you,
I'll submit that's a product of A) radio playing it to death and
B)merciless borrowing and ripping-off of the original ideas over the
years.
>I'm a much bigger fan of punk's no-frills and especially post-punk's
>experimental approaches, with lots of exciting, original sounds,
>rhythms, melodies, chord changes, etc.
I gave up punk after Sid died. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the
whole punk thing a reaction to disco-new wave? Seemed to me that the
post-punk thing was the most pretentious sort of experimentation,
noisy-for-noise sake indulgence. Once the real anger died out, the rest
has been a literal "Karoake" which translates as "empty orchestra." For
me, the exciting sounds, rhythms, textures etc. were produced by folks
like Eno, Fripp, David Byrne, Adrian Belew, Augustus Pablo and that
whole crew.
See there, that wasn't so bad now was it? ;-)
Don Rowe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:27:05 -0400
From: Jerry Notaro
Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC)
Don Rowe wrote:
> Hmmm ... interesting --
> >Most of the stuff I don't like irritates me either because it is syrupy
> >and naive would include
> >Judy Collins, Joan Baez, et al; CSN; Jackson Browne; James Taylor.
>
> There are some out there who would rather say "melodic" and "honest",
> but that's a half-empty/half-full distinction at best. But since you
> think Judy Collins is naive, I suggest you read her biography, "Singing
> Lessons" -- the woman's been through more hell than most people could
> honestly survive. Could shed a new light on her music for you.
Yes. I think the statement is just a tad sweeping and condemning. Lest we
forget these are the very same people who risked their careers to march for
civil and gay rights, and against war, when it was very unchic to do so.
Jerry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:29:06 -0500
From: "John M. Lind"
Subject: Re: Re: Male singers for tribute album
Phillip wrote:
>I'd rather see the songs done by a new generation who might bring
>a new audience to Joni, for example ;
>Stereolab
>Bjork
>Spiritualised - managed by Elliot Roberts.
>Baba Maal - Jungleline ?
>DJ Shadow - cut and paste job on Mingus
Stereolab or DJ Shadow would be great! I'm kiking myself for not thinking
of either of these. Stereolab's best bet would probably be something like
"All I Want". One of the songs that has a constant meter as they are
groove-monsters.
John~
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:44:50 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC)
I wrote:
>Most of the stuff I don't like irritates me either because it is syrupy
>and naive would include
>Judy Collins, Joan Baez, et al; CSN; Jackson Browne; James Taylor.
To which Don replied:
<<>>
I dig melody, perhaps more than any other musical attribute. The
Beatles had melody. Elliott Smith has melody. But these artists,
to me, have strings of notes.
As for honest, well, Joni's lyrics approach not just honesty but
*insight*, which is a far more elusive and valuable quality IMO. I
mean, some people call Jewel honest.
<<>>
Thanks for the suggestion; I'm glad to know that she is a tough
woman. That does not necessarily make her a good musician,
though, and to my ears her music doesn't reveal that survivorship.
As opposed to Laura Nyro or Mary J. Blige or Marianne Faithfull,
all of whose vocal techniques reveal (usually in their flaws) a
complex and painful artist.
(Jerry Notaro, please don't shoot me!! :-) )
<<< I otherwise note that the only thing the [Grateful Dead, Allman
Bros., et al] you mention share is instrumental virtuosity.>>>
Um, it's not the *only* thing they share. It's the major thing, but
sonically they sound very similar to me, to the point of virtual
indistinguishability. And consistently I can't recall a single melody,
even immediately after listening to a cut. I understand the live
energy of jamming can be fun, but it can also be tedious. I've
witnessed both at jazz concerts. For me, these groups are tedious.
<<>>
Sounds like it to me--otherwise I could find a song in all that mess.
<<>>
Or it could be it's just boring. Don't listen to classic rock radio.
Never did. Didn't even hear "Stairway to Heaven" (which I like, BTW)
until I was almost 20. Maybe I just don't like it. I know that may be
hard to believe, but I think it's the truth. Some of us are less shaped
by the '60s than its cultural imperialists would like to believe. :-)
<<>>
New wave *directly* grew out of punk, and disco actually developed
after punk, so the answer is no. Punk was a reaction primarily to
hippie music and its movement, not least of all because the hippie
"revolution" belonged primarily to middle-class bourgeouis college
students, leaving the working class out. It was also a reaction
against the lyrical naivete and artistic pretensions of hippie music,
and even more directly, the "symphonic" dross that followed it
(bad prog, etc.) The spirit of punk started with the Velvet
Underground, which was a definite urban hipster response to the
hippie stuff. They were followed by the Stooges, Television, the
Ramones, the Modern Lovers, etc.
<<>>
Some of it was, some not. I'll take Sonic Youth and Diamanda
Galas over the GD any day, though.
<<>>
And Eno and David Byrne are 100% part of the music I'm talking
about (the Talking Heads *were* one of the top CBGB's bands,
after all. And Roxy Music? Hello.)
I still contend that truly diverse sound did not really start to happen
in any meaningful way until ~1973-4ish, and we have George Clinton,
David Bowie, Laura Nyro, Iggy Pop, and Stevie Wonder to thank for
that much more than Eric Clapton or Jerry Garcia.
Wow, I just keep digging deeper...
- --Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:49:03 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC)
<<< Lest we forget these are the very same people who risked
their careers to march for civil and gay rights, and against war,
when it was very unchic to do so.>>>
I'm all for remembering, just not romanticizing. We've done this
thread before, but it is my opinion that the political "revolutions"
of the '60s are far more complicated (and overstated) than many
of that era often believe.
A lot was right about the '60s, but a lot was wrong, too. And
none of it changes the fact that I don't like most of the music.
:-)
- --Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:59:36 -0400
From: Jerry Notaro
Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC)
Michael Yarbrough wrote:
> <<< Lest we forget these are the very same people who risked
> their careers to march for civil and gay rights, and against war,
> when it was very unchic to do so.>>>
>
> I'm all for remembering, just not romanticizing. We've done this
> thread before, but it is my opinion that the political "revolutions"
> of the '60s are far more complicated (and overstated) than many
> of that era often believe.
>
> A lot was right about the '60s, but a lot was wrong, too. And
> none of it changes the fact that I don't like most of the music.
But we are not just talking about the 60's. Judy Collins and Joan Baez
have continued their political activism to this very day. So there is no
remembering, just awareness.
Jerry
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:05:41 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: Backstreet cover (NJC)
___Luke wrote:
>Am I alone in thinking that the Backstreet Boys would do an
>excellent job with "Woman of Heart and Mind"??
Then John wrote:
Well, appearantly I'm the only one who thought this was a joke. And a
pretty catty(no offense, Colin) one at that. MRRROOOEEERRRR! PHHTT! PHHTT!
Now I comment: As one of the people who "fell" for the joke, I think
it speaks well for the group that we automatically respected the idea
as opposed to *assuming* the writer was being sarcastic...that's a
good thing!!
Bob M., ocassional proposer of wacky ideas...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:06:32 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: Personal Mail generated (NJC)
Shit! I just lost a bet!
IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/11/99 12:44:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, whuehn@stud.uni-
> goettingen.de writes:
>
> << but I recently received a letter addressed to me only
> > but not the Joni Discussion list correcting my spelling of "Scarlett" in a
> > posting I made recently regarding the song Shades Of Scarlett Conquering. I
> > spelled it "scarlet" which is the correct spelling for the color name, but
> not
> > for the proper noun.
> >
>
> Oh, no! The JMDL-police is out there again!
> >>
> Wasn't me!!! ;>)
> I'm color-deficient to red, so I don't know one Scarlett from another.
> Paul I
- --
CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:07:05 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: Personal Mail generated from this list (teeny bit of Joni content)
Dear Gina-I am not surprised you recieved such a letter. Unfortunately there are a
few whose self esteem requires that they pull others down. I f you can, ignore
them. Don't let them upset you, it rerally isn't worth it.
I am impressed that you know 3 languages. I only know one and I have a Spanish
mother!
bw
colin
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:08:39 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: Before everyone REALLY hates me...
I want to quote from my original post about not digging '60s music:
<<>>
That is, I'm willing to make peace with whatever vagaries of time
and circumstance that have rendered me unresponsive to this music,
and hold no hard feelings against the artists or their fans. :-)
(And if y'all would do the same with hip-hop I'd be a lot happier. :-) )
- --Michael
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:05:32 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: RE: Joni second time around=sweetest
- ----------
> From: Bounced Message
> To: joni@smoe.org
> Subject: Joni second time around=sweetest
> Date: Sunday, January 10, 1999 6:08 PM
>
> From: "Carrie"
> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:51:04 -0500
>
> Shortly thereafter I searched Joni on the web and found this group and
have
> been listening to the more recent CD's incessantly. The other day I went
> to the record store to get TTT, but came out with TTT, Blue, and For the
> Roses, and almost bought four others before I found my self-control. I
sat
> in my car outside the record store and popped For the Roses in...I was
> transfixed. I was amazed at the clarity and complexity that was revealed
> to me for the first time in this digital form... People were waiting for
> my parking spot, but I couldn't move.
>
> I am continually amazed at how much the experiences from my adolescence
> shape my adulthood, and Joni was a key player in my teen years. To
listen
> to her music now, as an adult, is a wonderful but eerie experience. I am
> finding that I am reflecting much more deeply on my teen years (and am
> really glad they're over), but also paying more attention to the here and
> now in light of these memories. And to add to this, I'm a high school
> teacher, so I'm developing a different sensitivity to my own students'
> experiences right now.
>
> Just thought I'd share...
>
> --Carrie
>
Blows you away doesn't it!? I was amazed when I got the digital remaster
of Blue for Christmas! As far as the teenage stuff, I agree whole
heartedly! However, I'm still a teen in an adult body! I'm just glad the
hormones are settled at this point.
You'll be one of those teachers the kids will look back on in fondness.
Welcome,
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:09:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Zapuppy@webtv.net (Penny Gibbons)
Subject: Male Singers & "Scarlett"
Just another thought for a couple of additions to the male singers
to cover Joni's songs. To add a little more diversity and because Joni
says she "adores him", could there be a spot for Tony Bennett in the
tribute album? Especially since she's said her next may be an album of
standands. The other one that I would personally love to hear, although
I know I'm an Impossible dreamer, would have to be Cat Stevens. I heard
a blurb awhile back he might come out to do something again but haven't
caught anything on him recently. Wouldn't that be a casting coup!
About Gina's posts on "Scarlett", I enjoyed both. I admire her
courage to point out the "they strain out a gnat only to shallow a
camel' mentality that is far to prevalent in today's world. Our little
community here, that loves Joni's messages, isn't even exempt from the
silly focus on the minute that subverts the purpose of the whole. Gina,
all I'd like to point out is one would have to wonder about one that
would go to the time and expense of wanting a Ph.D in spelling! : )
Please keep posting.
Peny, whoops! Penny
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:09:20 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re: de-lurking (NJC)
Leah wrote:
<>
Man, it's a de-lurking epidemic...welcome Leah!!
Bob M.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:11:10 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: Male singers for tribute album
John M. Lind wrote:
> Phillip wrote:
> >I'd rather see the songs done by a new generation who might bring
> >a new audience to Joni, for example ;
>
> >Stereolab
> >Bjork
> >Spiritualised - managed by Elliot Roberts.
> >Baba Maal - Jungleline ?
> >DJ Shadow - cut and paste job on Mingus
>
> Stereolab or DJ Shadow would be great! I'm kiking
John- can't you spell? It's kicking! (I think kiking might mean something
unpleasant)
> myself for not thinking
> of either of these. Stereolab's best bet would probably be something like
> "All I Want". One of the songs that has a constant meter as they are
> groove-monsters.
>
> John~
- --
CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:14:46 PST
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: RE: hippie-s**t (SJC)
You wrote ...
>I still contend that truly diverse sound did not really start to happen
>in any meaningful way until ~1973-4ish, and we have George Clinton,
>David Bowie, Laura Nyro, Iggy Pop, and Stevie Wonder to thank for
>that much more than Eric Clapton or Jerry Garcia.
>
I think I understand now! You're having an allergic reaction to the
blues! No, I'm really serious here -- Eagles ... country blues more
than a rock band -- FMac -- pop blues with a jazz spin -- Grateful Dead
- -- folksy/blues, Allman Bros. -- US Southern-fried blues w/standard
backbeats. And live jamming so easily becomes "the blues, the schmooze,
the same 12-bar BS I've got on 1500 discs" to paraphrase Lester Bangs.
That's got to be it. I understand that -- and it's why so much of the
music I enjoy, like some of the artists you mention, either broke away
from, or simply were untainted by blues elements.
That being said, I would respectfully request to be spared any
discussion of the politico-cultural theft of the blues from the minority
delta poor. I've heard it all before and grown weary of that sort of
academic axe-grinding.
Don Rowe
(thinking I'll be sharing that foxhole w/you pretty soon here)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:18:09 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Re: de-lurking
- ----------
> From: Leahpr@aol.com
> To: joni@smoe.org
> Subject: de-lurking
> Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 11:07 AM
>
> Hello Joni lovers.
> I have been lurking for several months now, and I have really enjoyed
> learning more and more about one of my favorite musicians. I am
seventeen, a
> student abroad (in London), and my respect for Joni's music has grown so
much
> from reading all of your posts. My first Joni cd was NRH, then Misses,
then
> Hits, then Blue, and now STAS. I play guitar, and love CSN, Paul
Simon,
> James Taylor, and America.
> Anyway, I own TTT, and I can't really get into it. I really try to
> "appreciate" it but I get bored when I put it on. Maybe I will grow into
it.
> I hope I don't put anyone off by admitting that. : ) I love STAS
however.
> Nice to meet you all.
> Leah
>
Some of Joni's stuff takes time to grow on you. It took time for me to get
into HOSL, Chalkmark & Mingus (which some still have a hard time with). I
personally love Joni's live CD's MOI & S&L. And don't worry about putting
anybody off-that's what makes for great conversations!
By the way, my daughter wants to go to school in London, is it expensive?
Welcome,
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:20:15 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett"
Penny asks:
_<< could there be a spot for Tony Bennett in the tribute album?>>
I hear him doing "Moon At The Window"...nice
Bob
<>
Now you've done it - given me a case of "Peny envy"...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:26:51 -0800
From: Randy Remote
Subject: Re: JM Tribute Disc/Backstreet Boys
> why don't we come up
> with some of the "worst" or funniest artists to cover a Joni song?
>
Steve Lawrence and Edie Gorme doing "Don Juans' Reckless Daughter"
Metallica-"Judgement of the Moon and Stars"
Bob Dylan-"Barangrill"
Barry White-"You Turn Me On (I'm a Radio)"
George Michael-"Man To Man"
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:49:51 +0100
From: "Winfried Hühn"
Subject: Re: Personal Mail generated (NJC)
I personally do not mind at all to be corrected, especially on clear
grammatical errors -- even an advanced learner is still a learner, and
therefore I'm always appreciative of any help I can get. So I for one
wouldn't be annoyed at all. But that's just me -- and if someone
corrected me on an obvious typo or similarly insignificant mistake, I'd
most definitely be less than enthusiastic about it, too!
>correcting my spelling of "Scarlett" in a
> posting I made recently regarding the song Shades Of Scarlett
>Conquering. I
> spelled it "scarlet" which is the correct spelling for the color name, >but not for the proper noun.
Hey, maybe it was a person from Deep Down Dixie who took your
misspelling of "Scarlett" as a negligent assault on a Southern
institution? Who's from Atlanta here??? :-)
Winfried,
who remembers being almost arrested by the Canadian Mounties once after
calling our SIQUOMB an "American".... now THAT was a mistake!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:09:06 -0500 (EST)
From: w evans
Subject: Joni vs. Gay Divas
Clark, thanks for bringing that up.... I have never understood why joni
doesn't seem to have the so-called "gay diva" following that those other
women have... I have always felt as if I could have written so many of her
songs from my own experience if I had the talent (Esp. Last Time I Saw
Richard, I Had A King, Down To You, Help Me.) To me it seems that Joni's
experience as a VERY liberated woman in the throes of the long-ago 70s
heterosexual revolution, with all of its confusion about just What Is
Love? and wondering if all this freedom, newly burst forth, is really
making her happy, this experience detailed in her songs seems to me very
similar to the gay male urban experience, which has not become nearly as
domesticated (although somewhat more than in the past) as the former
warriors of the sexual revolution have become. (and I am NOT saying this
is a good thing.) To state it more simplistic, she wrote so many songs
about men that are full of "processing," the sort of emotional analysis
that is very much the province of women and gay men, and with the
exception of the archtypes defined by the characters on the show
"Friends," not particularly by many straight men.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:09:41 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: Male Singers
In a message dated 1/11/99 1:11:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Zapuppy@webtv.net
writes:
<< To add a little more diversity and because Joni
says she "adores him", could there be a spot for Tony Bennett in the
tribute album? >>
Maybe Tony Bennett could do "People's Parties"?
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:10:32 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett"
In a message dated 1/11/99 1:11:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Zapuppy@webtv.net
writes:
<< The other one that I would personally love to hear, although
I know I'm an Impossible dreamer, would have to be Cat Stevens. I heard
a blurb awhile back he might come out to do something again but haven't
caught anything on him recently. Wouldn't that be a casting coup! >>
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd heard Cat Stevens died a few years ago.
Am I wrong?
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:29:29 -0500
From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com
Subject: Re[2]: Male Singers & "Scarlett"
Paul proposed:
<>
Paul, I know he switched to Islamic religion and disavowed his
former life as Cat Stevens, but I don't think he's assumed room
temperature as yet...
Bob
NP: Timbuk 3, "Legalize Our Love"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:30:39 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: Joni vs. Gay Divas
In a message dated 1/11/99 2:11:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kenevans@umich.edu writes:
<< To state it more simplistic, she wrote so many songs
about men that are full of "processing," the sort of emotional analysis
that is very much the province of women and gay men, and with the
exception of the archtypes defined by the characters on the show
"Friends," not particularly by many straight men. >>
Oh, really?
Why is it that gay men think they are the only ones with penises and feelings?
I could go on, but I don't think the statements I quote are worth dignifying
any further.
Paul I
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:45:18 +0100
From: "Winfried Hühn"
Subject: Re: Male Singers & "Scarlett"
IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/11/99 1:11:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Zapuppy@webtv.net
> writes:
>
> << The other one that I would personally love to hear, although
> I know I'm an Impossible dreamer, would have to be Cat Stevens. I heard
> a blurb awhile back he might come out to do something again but haven't
> caught anything on him recently. Wouldn't that be a casting coup! >>
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd heard Cat Stevens died a few years ago.
> Am I wrong?
> Paul I
Paul,
The answer is yes and no!
Cat Stevens is still alive, although he's become a fairly different
person -- at least musically and spiritually. He converted to the Muslim
religion and calls himself "Yusuf Islam" now. The last
time I've heard of him was a charity concert in Bosnia/Hercegovina, in
which he exclusively sang Arabic religious songs. I've heard somewhere,
he also refuses to play his old songs.
So, in a metaphorical sense, I guess you could say the "Morning-
Has-Broken" Cat Stevens did indeed die. He's still writing and producing
music though, but I haven't got a clue as to which kind and of which
quality.
Winfried,
not intending to make any kind of judgment on the above matter
(Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam website at http://www.catstevens.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:26:51 -0700
From: Les Irvin
Subject: NJC - Cat Stevens
><ago. Am I wrong? >>
>Paul, I know he switched to Islamic religion and disavowed his
>former life as Cat Stevens, but I don't think he's assumed room
>temperature as yet...
Cat... er... Yusef Islam... came out with a double CD spoken word album
last year in which he was reading passages from the Quran (I know I spelled
that wrong). I also heard that he was going to come out with a new album
of Islamic tunes - 2 or 3 of which he penned himself. Did anyone else hear
about this?
Les
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:04:52 -0800
From: Mary Grace Valentinsson
Subject: Leonard Cohen, (NJC - unless you want it to be so...)
I apologize for taking up space with a personal post.
Marian!
The Billboard with the Leonard Cohen article finally made it to my
in-basket. (more importantly, I finally went through my in-basket!).
Can you contact me and let me know where to send it??
Thanks!
MG
np: Crazy Cries of Love
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:06:30 -0800
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: hippie-s**t (SJC)
Wow Michael!
This is all a quite interesting assortment that you've chosen. At the risk
of digging my own (fox)hole, I'll throw in my two centavos.
>Most of the stuff I don't like irritates me either because it is syrupy
>and naive or indulgent and arrogant. The first category would include
>Judy Collins, Joan Baez, et al; CSN; Jackson Browne; James Taylor.
I had a sense that you might react to some of this music as naive and
indulgent and can see how it might appear that way in the context of today's
music and socio-politico culture. I think one has to have lived during the
times to understand or feel an affinity to some of this music. And I don't
mean that to say that you can't understand it because you weren't there. I
was old enough to remember the turbulent times of the 60s and why some of
this music affected people so deeply. We were embroiled in a war that
seemed to be pointless and never-ending. I recall for *years* seeing combat
footage from Vietnam rolling on the news every night during the dinner hour.
Can you imagine this? And it was not the high-tech, remote control war
footage we now see in Iraq. It was the grisly, down and dirty guerilla
warfare that you may have seen in Vietnam war movies, but it was for real
and we got a daily dose of it. Most of our parent's generation initially
thought the war was a patriotic endeavor. But their children, especially
the 18 year olds who faced being drafted and shipped off to the hell were
reacting, sometimes violently against it, and all the rest of the
"establishment's" values. So in a sense, there was a war going on at home,
too, and we also saw the flames from that rolling on the news every night.
There was an underlying edge running through our lives every day for years.
So hearing the gentle, simple, naive-in-its-way music of Judy, Joan, CSN,
James, et al, soothed us, comforted us and also served to fortify our
humanity against the constant assault going on around us.
So now some of us look back on that music fondly and nostalgically, but for
very valid reasons. It brought us some small dose of beauty in an ugly
world, it gave us hope, and much of it inspired us and helped us to feel
that we did have a voice.
>The exemplar of the second category is the Grateful Dead; it also
>includes Eric Clapton, Allman Bros. and [gulp] the Rolling Stones.
>Flat-out boring (IMO) artists who fit in both categories include
>Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles (both of whom I know came a little
>after hippiedom, but their fan-base overlaps significantly.)
(Ducking) I never *got* the Grateful Dead either, but I'll leave that area
to gr8fuldave and others here. I think Clapton is brilliant but wouldn't
consider him hippie music. I like some of the Allman Brothers but again
think they had their own style. The Stones never did much for me, either
(although I'm finally going to see them in February) but are great to dance
to. (Ducking more) I only liked the early FM (before Stevie) and the Eagles
got redundant for me very quickly. Again, I don't consider them in the
hippie music part of the bin.
> I also think Van Morrison is very over-rated, though pleasant enough.
Pleasant?? Arrrrrr, I'll leave this one to others, too. I have always
considered Van to be Joni's only male peer.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:21:47 -0600
From: "Alan Parsons"
Subject: RE: Joni vs Gay Divas (some Joni content)
To state it more simplistic, she wrote so many songs
about men that are full of "processing," the sort of emotional analysis
that is very much the province of women and gay men, and with the
exception of the archtypes defined by the characters on the show
"Friends," not particularly by many straight men.
I have to disagree as well. I don't mean this to sound as a personal
attack, but this comment belongs to a group of comments I find offensive,
and I feel I have t say it. I don't think that emotional analysis is the
province of anyone. Women and gay men don't get it any more correct than
straight men, and i think you'll find a growing class of straight men who do
a good deal of emotional analysis, like me. Now, I realize that the kind of
blunt emotional honesty and knowledge about myself I posses is not yet
"normal" for straight men, and comes at the expense of having to jokingly
preface my statements to my friends with "Now, I'm not gay..." There is
large number of men in my age group who are also like me, and I think you'll
find it's more the norm among the younger generations. And to be honest,
the archtype on Friends doesn't exist. It's a parody on the type of men
who, as my girlfriend says "pretend to be tough and manly but are really
caring, sensitive and whipped."
Take out your rationalization a little farther, and it seems to me that
you're saying that men can't understand Joni the way women or gay men do.
But I think many men see her songs the same way women and gay men do, just
directed at a different sex. It's easy for me to take many of her songs and
apply them equally to both sexes. Granted, some particular references to
men don't work, but the general feeling behind it does work out very well.
And one last point, the idea that somehow emotional processing is the
province of women and gay men goes to reinforce the attitude and cultural
stereotype that men aren't ALLOWED to have emotion, that our emotions
consist entirely of food, sex and sports. No matter how liberated we as a
nation seem to be, the sad fact is that straight men refuse to show that
kind of emotion simply beccause they don't want thier "manhood challenged,"
in other words don't want to be confused with being gay. The reason it
doesn't bother me, and why I was able to let go of the gay jokes my
stepfather used to crack at my expense (my family is very intolerant of
everything. It's a wonder I survived at all) is because I look for the same
type of liberation in a woman that I feel I have. Having hypocritical and
"unelightened" people think whatever they want of me oesn't bother me simply
because I have no interest in them, either.
Well, that's my two cents.
Alan
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V4 #17
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